Browse content similar to 01/07/2011. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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weekend! Tonight on the Book Review show. | :00:10. | :00:16. | |
Philip Roth, Michael Holroyd and The Gruffalo. | :00:16. | :00:22. | |
Tonight the long-awaited new novel from Michael Holroyd, spanning 100 | :00:22. | :00:28. | |
years. It is a world which is about to change. But hasn't done so yet. | :00:28. | :00:33. | |
Will the Man Booker winner rise to expectations. From beyond the grave, | :00:33. | :00:38. | |
the final Gormenghast novel, fantasy, or horror. | :00:38. | :00:43. | |
The new Children's Laureate goes back to school. But, has The | :00:43. | :00:46. | |
Gruffalo overshadowed Julia Donaldson's other books. | :00:46. | :00:53. | |
Gruffalo is sort of like a nice bouncey, cuddley trampoline for the | :00:53. | :00:58. | |
other books. At home with the legendary American novelist, Philip | :00:58. | :01:02. | |
Roth. Wouldn't people be surprised to find that Philip Roth panics? | :01:02. | :01:07. | |
don't think so. Joining me in Glasgow tonight to | :01:07. | :01:11. | |
tackle everything from Gormenghast to The Gruffalo, are the literary | :01:11. | :01:21. | |
:01:21. | :01:23. | ||
critic, Professor John Carey, crime writer Dreiade Mitchell, and Kate | :01:23. | :01:29. | |
Mosse, and Alan Preston. It is the long-awaited novel from Michael | :01:29. | :01:39. | |
Holroyd, the winner of the Man Booker prize has The Stranger's | :01:39. | :01:43. | |
Chlid, which spans 100 years in history. I met up with him to | :01:43. | :01:50. | |
discuss his epic novel. My first idea was to have a novel in the | :01:50. | :01:55. | |
Great War, with people who you would see before it and then some | :01:55. | :01:58. | |
years after and leave it to the reader to work it out what happened | :01:58. | :02:02. | |
inbetween. When it became clear one would be a poet killed in the Great | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
War, then the whole question of his literary legacy and his life, and | :02:06. | :02:11. | |
the different sort of claims that people felt they had on him clearly | :02:11. | :02:15. | |
demanded a much longer treatment. The way you have structured the | :02:16. | :02:22. | |
book is to have it in sections, with gaps of years inbetween, which | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
presents a kind of challenge to the reader. You have to work out which | :02:26. | :02:31. | |
characters are reappearing and so on, why did you decide to write it | :02:31. | :02:36. | |
in that way? It was clear I was writing what might be described as | :02:36. | :02:40. | |
a multigenerational family saga, I wanted to leave the conventional | :02:40. | :02:45. | |
family saga bits out, and concentrate on the significant, but | :02:45. | :02:49. | |
I hope not oversymbolic episode, the first one on the eve of the | :02:49. | :02:52. | |
First World War. The second one is on the eve of the General Strike. | :02:52. | :02:59. | |
The third one is on the eve of the Sexual Offences Bill, which was to | :02:59. | :03:02. | |
decriminalise homosexuality, it is about people living in those | :03:02. | :03:06. | |
particular worlds on the brink of change of some kind. You also | :03:06. | :03:11. | |
explore changing sexual Morays, across the century, affecting not | :03:11. | :03:15. | |
just the lives of the gay men you are talking about, but also the | :03:15. | :03:18. | |
women whose lives they touch, which I thought was very interesting? | :03:18. | :03:24. | |
much is unsaid and unsayable in the early parts of the book. That no- | :03:24. | :03:28. | |
one quite knows what other people are after. I tried to create a sort | :03:28. | :03:34. | |
of comedy of sexual confusions and misapprehensions. In both the first | :03:34. | :03:41. | |
two parts of the book. I think in the 1926 section, it has that more | :03:41. | :03:47. | |
relaxed, 1920s mood, of new sexual freedoms and also the kind of | :03:47. | :03:51. | |
Bloomsbury ethos of being very frank about sexual things. At least | :03:51. | :03:58. | |
amongst the younger generation. Daphne, is rather sort of caught up | :03:58. | :04:02. | |
in these rapidly changing conventions. I don't think she | :04:02. | :04:07. | |
quite knows where she is, or where she's going, in a way. She's | :04:07. | :04:11. | |
someone who lost her own father when she was very young and she | :04:11. | :04:18. | |
seems drawn to glamorous, but unreliable men. | :04:18. | :04:25. | |
"You don't mind if I kiss you, Cecil said dreamly. I don't call | :04:25. | :04:30. | |
that kissing she said, what would you call kissing he said, his tone | :04:30. | :04:37. | |
dopey, tugging her back into his grasp, with a mere flourish of his | :04:37. | :04:44. | |
sudden, inescapably grip. More like this, and he darted his lips all | :04:44. | :04:49. | |
over her face, allowing her to dodge her head a little, holding | :04:49. | :04:54. | |
her so tightly about the waist that she was slightly hurt by the cigar | :04:54. | :04:59. | |
case in his pocket thrust against her stomach. She found she was | :04:59. | :05:09. | |
:05:09. | :05:10. | ||
giggling in shallow breaths, then we were in sobs and a child like | :05:10. | :05:16. | |
surrender. "$$NEWLINE The history is very much in the poetry of the | :05:16. | :05:23. | |
book, did you find it difficult to write that? The poetry of Cecil | :05:23. | :05:30. | |
Valance in the book, I'm quite sort of soaked in the poetry of that | :05:30. | :05:36. | |
period from my adolesence, I read a lot of Victorian and early | :05:36. | :05:43. | |
20tsenttree poetry. I used to write whey - 20th century poetry, I used | :05:43. | :05:48. | |
to write good poetry but no longer. There is this sense of how literary | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
reputations change according to the era in which we live, do you think | :05:52. | :05:55. | |
that tells us something about ourselves, the way we regard | :05:55. | :06:02. | |
writers of the past? Yes, all the writers were, and we are encouraged | :06:02. | :06:06. | |
to have an interest in the book, and at the end of the book, 95 | :06:06. | :06:11. | |
years later, if they are mentioned at all, they are described as | :06:11. | :06:14. | |
totally forgotten nowadays, and very second rate. I have always | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
been struck by the comedy and poignancy of literary reputations, | :06:18. | :06:22. | |
that whole sort of secondhand bookshop world, bookshop stuffed | :06:22. | :06:25. | |
with work that is were once immensely highly regarded and very | :06:25. | :06:29. | |
popular, now no-one reads them or has heard of them. Do you worry | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
about that happening to yourself? Not too much. Not all of conceit, | :06:32. | :06:37. | |
but because there is nothing I can do about it. | :06:37. | :06:44. | |
Of course, a form mid-able reputation at the moment. This book | :06:44. | :06:47. | |
is more ambitious in scale Alex what did you think of the way it | :06:47. | :06:52. | |
spans 100 years? I thought it was a masterpiece, I think this is a | :06:53. | :06:57. | |
wonderful novel. Obviously you have the wonderful exquisite prose, that | :06:57. | :07:02. | |
you associate with Michael Holroyd, but you have this ambition, the 100 | :07:02. | :07:07. | |
years where the hero is not this character, but a slightly dreadful | :07:07. | :07:12. | |
people called Aiken, he had the character's point of - Two Acres. | :07:12. | :07:17. | |
He had the character's point of view circle around it, and it | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
affects the people and the life of the people. It is about literary | :07:20. | :07:23. | |
reputation and the characters. about the structure, he said he | :07:24. | :07:27. | |
wanted to bust open the whole traditions of a family saga by | :07:27. | :07:32. | |
having the gaps between time? loved the idea it was a family saga | :07:32. | :07:36. | |
without the family or saga. It is about the ideas without it. I | :07:36. | :07:39. | |
started reading it with a cup of coffee and finished it at the end | :07:39. | :07:45. | |
of the day, I won't say how much wine I had by the end of it. I | :07:45. | :07:48. | |
agree with Alex, it is fantastic. The structure demands so much of | :07:48. | :07:52. | |
you as the reader. He doesn't give any of the sign posting that would | :07:52. | :07:56. | |
help by saying this is 1912, and this is 1920, he doesn't do any of | :07:56. | :08:01. | |
that. You have to learn, as you would if you wandered into a room | :08:01. | :08:04. | |
and listened to those people talking and you got their little | :08:04. | :08:09. | |
stories out. I think it is very successful, but it is demand to go | :08:09. | :08:12. | |
read. Did you find it challenging as a reader? I found it interesting, | :08:12. | :08:18. | |
in a sense, I agree with Alex, it is equisitely written, the flip | :08:18. | :08:22. | |
side of that, is sometimes there are too many words, in a sense that | :08:22. | :08:26. | |
I think we lose the thread of the story. I felt, actually n the | :08:26. | :08:31. | |
middle of the look, it is sad for - in the middle of the book, it is | :08:31. | :08:37. | |
sad for me, there were too many characters and people, and I asked | :08:37. | :08:42. | |
what I was interested in the book, I was interested in Cecil and | :08:42. | :08:45. | |
George, and do they get it on. I wanted to care about George and | :08:45. | :08:51. | |
find out about him. George is Cecil's lover? Yeah, but there was | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
so many character that is kept coming on. I kept thinking, step | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
out of the way, let's get back to George. For me the pacing wasn't | :08:58. | :09:01. | |
quite there in the book. I see what you mean. If you are looking to | :09:01. | :09:05. | |
character, I loved this book, but if you are looking for character it | :09:05. | :09:12. | |
is not exactly what you find. What Alex said it is equisitely written. | :09:12. | :09:16. | |
How interesting to Sayers about Valance, his own poetry in the book | :09:17. | :09:21. | |
is wonderful. Particularly about things, objects. When Cecil gives | :09:21. | :09:28. | |
Daphne a cigar, to have a puff at, she feels it odd, she says it's dry | :09:28. | :09:33. | |
to her fingers, but wet and decomposing on the lips, God, I | :09:33. | :09:37. | |
mean, it is the most sexual cigar, you don't need to worry about | :09:37. | :09:42. | |
sexual intercourse with a cigar like that! But if you say, why does | :09:42. | :09:47. | |
Daphne marry Dudley, for heaven's sake, ghastly men, well that's a | :09:47. | :09:52. | |
bit of a family saga, could he write it, he hasn't in this book. | :09:52. | :09:56. | |
I'm worried about people watching not knowing the characters the | :09:56. | :10:05. | |
Cecil is the poet. What he does so well, a little like Wolf into the | :10:05. | :10:08. | |
Lighthouse, is have the gaps inbetween where the real action | :10:08. | :10:12. | |
takes players you have the war and the aftereffect, you have what was | :10:12. | :10:18. | |
going on before. But I just thought there was this equisite linkage of | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
those sections. I thought that is what he did so well, I felt there | :10:22. | :10:25. | |
was continuity, the continuity is in the people, but also in this | :10:25. | :10:29. | |
sense of the aesthetic. I didn't find that all the time, I think | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
sometimes as a reader I actually got lost, I would have liked a bit | :10:33. | :10:38. | |
more sign posting, actually. think it is meant to be disorient | :10:38. | :10:43. | |
Tateing, one of the things the book is about - disorientating, one of | :10:43. | :10:47. | |
the things this book is about is the passage of time, appalling | :10:47. | :10:52. | |
things have happened, a woman dying of breast cancer. I still felt, | :10:52. | :10:57. | |
hang on where am I, I had to flick the page, I wanted more sign | :10:57. | :11:01. | |
posting. I read it in one go, that made a huge amount of difference | :11:01. | :11:04. | |
going through it. One of the things I thought really special about this | :11:04. | :11:12. | |
book in Holroyd's work, is that I think Daphne, - Michael Holroyd's | :11:12. | :11:21. | |
work is that I think dove knee, the people is written to her - Daphne, | :11:21. | :11:25. | |
the poem is written to her or not. It is a real gamble to make people | :11:25. | :11:30. | |
care about characters and get them off stage, but she is there the | :11:30. | :11:37. | |
whole time. Novelists have been criticised for focusing on gay men | :11:37. | :11:41. | |
but she as a woman is at the centre? It is about the wife and | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
the bullying, those section where is you thought it bagged, they were | :11:44. | :11:51. | |
for me the best. I was less interested in the final section | :11:51. | :11:56. | |
when it went back to this is what a biographer does, these are the | :11:56. | :12:06. | |
:12:06. | :12:11. | ||
lives that were hold. With Daphne you don't know how she died. Also I | :12:11. | :12:17. | |
think the scenes that are set in the bank and Hollinghurst's father | :12:17. | :12:21. | |
was a bank manager, he talked to me about the fact that he used to play | :12:21. | :12:26. | |
in the bank after the customers went home. I described that to | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
somebody as a gauge on brain, that section, which wasn't taken in the | :12:30. | :12:38. | |
right way, perhaps. It is this very lovely Boris Johnson woi story. You | :12:38. | :12:44. | |
go from this - this story. You go interest this guy riding the | :12:44. | :12:48. | |
reputation of the guy before. There is something that follows through. | :12:48. | :12:54. | |
The Stranger's Chlid is out now, published by Picador. | :12:54. | :13:00. | |
Steerpike, and Nanny Slag, the Gothic characters of Gormenghast | :13:00. | :13:04. | |
have had cult status since the 1940s, now there is a fourth volume | :13:04. | :13:08. | |
from beyond the grave, based on a fragment written by Mervyn Peake, | :13:09. | :13:14. | |
but finished by his widow. In addition his daughter, Claire, has | :13:14. | :13:19. | |
written an account of their rather Bohemian life. And a limited | :13:19. | :13:24. | |
edition with Peake's original illustrations has been published. | :13:24. | :13:30. | |
Why has his work endured, we asked Dr Prunesquallor himself, John | :13:30. | :13:37. | |
Sessions. "when I'm all along by myself, all it lost because I | :13:37. | :13:42. | |
realise being lonely drives the splendor of the vision from my | :13:42. | :13:46. | |
mind." The world of Mervyn Peake's | :13:46. | :13:51. | |
Gormenghast is an English world, monstrously mutated, it has to be | :13:51. | :13:57. | |
conceded, but English nonetheless. For me it has always been a Baroque, | :13:57. | :14:04. | |
18th century world. Lord Groan and his gigantic wife, are all wigs and | :14:04. | :14:10. | |
Queen Anne care. Peake's sentences shudder with literary echos, hamlet, | :14:10. | :14:16. | |
Richard III, Milton, and painters too, Pyronase, possibly Esher. This | :14:16. | :14:23. | |
is the world I saw when I read Peake's world. | :14:23. | :14:31. | |
There was a strange puppet series broadcast in the early 1960s called | :14:31. | :14:38. | |
Rubovia, a liberally-chined king called Rufus, took the path of | :14:38. | :14:45. | |
least resistance when his nagging Queen drew near with his pet Pongo. | :14:45. | :14:50. | |
They had a ratty faced Lord Chamberlain, and a peculiar | :14:50. | :14:59. | |
astronomer and inventer called Mr Witherspoon. The world of Rubovia | :14:59. | :15:04. | |
draws deeply in Gormenghasts and the inception, and the characters | :15:04. | :15:08. | |
strike me now as displaying two aspects of the character I was | :15:08. | :15:11. | |
lucky enough to play, Alfred Prunesquallor. | :15:11. | :15:16. | |
I tried to find out why he was so called, with no success whatsoever. | :15:16. | :15:21. | |
I see genitalia, it is of a sex ladyship. The man is a car crash of | :15:21. | :15:29. | |
puzzles. He is sexless, then he isn't, he flirts with Fushia and | :15:29. | :15:37. | |
then Steare, he is at one moment an idiot, then an idiot ZAF vant, then | :15:37. | :15:42. | |
an idiot again. What is Dr Prunesquallor's secret wound, what | :15:42. | :15:47. | |
lies beneath all his bumbling and scruplously observed sub servance, | :15:47. | :15:54. | |
when I played the part I thought it would be due to loneliness, which | :15:54. | :16:01. | |
isn't helped by living with Hislopor kal sister, then I felt | :16:01. | :16:08. | |
the doctor - hysterical sister. I felt it laid darker still. The plot | :16:08. | :16:13. | |
in conjunction with the ub better detail has led to several copies of | :16:13. | :16:17. | |
Gormenghast flying across the world. There is little dispute over | :16:17. | :16:24. | |
Peake's mastery as a draftsman. Here his intricacy given bloodless | :16:24. | :16:28. | |
intensity by his vision to Belsen, left this actor, at least a little | :16:29. | :16:37. | |
daunted, when he tried to match the hypnotic and stigeon vision. Come | :16:37. | :16:43. | |
my only, through the Gormenghast of Groan, lingering has become so | :16:43. | :16:53. | |
:16:53. | :16:56. | ||
lonely, as I linger all alone. have to say I was always more of a | :16:56. | :16:59. | |
Tolken girl, or were you part of the Peake cult? Yes I was. I didn't | :17:00. | :17:04. | |
understand it to start with. I kept being told that these were the | :17:04. | :17:14. | |
:17:14. | :17:15. | ||
books. This man was a genius, Little by little I learned to read | :17:15. | :17:21. | |
them. I was looking for a linear story, I was looking for pictures | :17:21. | :17:25. | |
that told me about what I was reading rather than a different | :17:25. | :17:31. | |
universe. Once I realised they were nightmares, you simply had to enjoy | :17:31. | :17:36. | |
your ladyship because there was birds in her hair and cats at her | :17:36. | :17:39. | |
feet, rather than going where were the cats and why weren't they | :17:39. | :17:43. | |
eating the bird. I think his work has endured because he was a genius. | :17:43. | :17:47. | |
And the draftsmanship of the words, as well as the line drawings, the | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
beauty of those sentences, you could pick anyone out, and almost | :17:51. | :17:56. | |
put it down anywhere else and marvel at it. Can you immerse | :17:56. | :18:01. | |
yourself in this kind of fantasy?Y I don't read a lot of fantasy, one | :18:01. | :18:07. | |
of the things that really draws me in is the beauty of the sentences. | :18:07. | :18:12. | |
This real sense of escapism, when I read them it was great, it felt | :18:12. | :18:14. | |
like this completely mad world that was completely different. Why | :18:14. | :18:19. | |
shouldn't the world be mad like that, but underneath all the themes | :18:19. | :18:24. | |
you can tap into. All the themes around you, revenge, betrayal, a | :18:24. | :18:28. | |
sense of being confined in a world. Do you think there is a deeper | :18:28. | :18:32. | |
morality beyond the Gothic and strange writing? I read this as a | :18:32. | :18:36. | |
child, it was wonderful to come back to it. The first thing to say | :18:36. | :18:40. | |
is the vintage classics edition is absolutely beautiful. I do think | :18:40. | :18:48. | |
the morality behind it is this strange kind of radical | :18:48. | :18:51. | |
libertarianism, you get it in Titus Awakes, the most scary and | :18:51. | :18:57. | |
interesting of the novels, the third of the trilogy. The problems | :18:57. | :19:06. | |
is the human oid characters, they don't always have human motives. | :19:06. | :19:12. | |
Now we have the fourth novel, based on a tiny fragment of Gormenghast, | :19:12. | :19:19. | |
and finished by his widow. It is terrible, terrible, Peake's style | :19:19. | :19:25. | |
it beautiful and it never gets need to it. There are amazing lines you | :19:25. | :19:32. | |
come acorrection when Steerpike peers in through the window and | :19:32. | :19:37. | |
Fushia sees him, his eyes, he says, not so much eyes as narrow tunnels, | :19:37. | :19:44. | |
through which the night was pouring. God. Well Tolken never writes like | :19:44. | :19:50. | |
that, and he has a simple stupid moral about how industry is bad and | :19:50. | :19:55. | |
theshires are good. This book - the shires are good. This book is a | :19:55. | :20:00. | |
nightmare. You give it what meaning you like. The only flaw is it is | :20:00. | :20:05. | |
anti-social mobility. Steerpike is bad because he wants to get away | :20:05. | :20:13. | |
from being a skull air strikes n, Steerpike is Satan. He looks down | :20:13. | :20:20. | |
on the earth and shakes his clotted wings, clotted with blood. We learn | :20:20. | :20:24. | |
from the daughter's memoirs of some of the influence that shaped the | :20:24. | :20:28. | |
writing, particularly his visit to Belsen and the drawings he made | :20:28. | :20:33. | |
there? Normally I don't like to know about the author's life, the | :20:33. | :20:38. | |
text speaks for itself, I don't want to know if it was based in | :20:38. | :20:43. | |
fact, or that he used to play in the bank, I prefer to read the book. | :20:43. | :20:46. | |
With this particular memoir, I thought firstly, knowing he had | :20:46. | :20:49. | |
been to Belsen and drawn, that was a very powerful piece of | :20:50. | :20:53. | |
information. Also, I hadn't known, because I hadn't done this buy | :20:53. | :20:59. | |
graph kal research, that he developed - biographical research, | :20:59. | :21:05. | |
that he developed Parkinson's early on and severe dementia as part of | :21:05. | :21:10. | |
that. And that art mirroring life, the sort of disintegration, it made | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
for me, when I went back and read this beautiful book, I found tears | :21:14. | :21:21. | |
rolling down the cheeks. That horrific picture of him towards the | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
end. What interested me was his youth growing up in China. I | :21:25. | :21:30. | |
thought there was a parallel there with Ballard there, these are | :21:30. | :21:34. | |
people growing up in a totally alien and violent society, and had | :21:34. | :21:39. | |
a second alienation when they were integrated into Britain. He never | :21:39. | :21:47. | |
knew what anybody meant. They both are able to create the violent and | :21:47. | :21:50. | |
imaginative worlds. Titus Awakes is released on Thursday, and Claire | :21:50. | :21:55. | |
Peake's Under A Canvas Sky is also available now. | :21:55. | :22:02. | |
Silly old fox, doesn't he know, there is no such thing as a Grufflo. | :22:02. | :22:07. | |
There is barely a parent that doesn't know the book by heart. Now | :22:07. | :22:11. | |
the author has been made the Children's Laureate. I met up with | :22:11. | :22:16. | |
Julia Donaldson, the author of over 100 book, in a special location. We | :22:16. | :22:20. | |
are back in your old primary school, does it bring back memories? | :22:20. | :22:26. | |
definitely does. It brings back mostly happy memories. I did have | :22:26. | :22:30. | |
one teacher here who really humiliated me, because I was very | :22:30. | :22:34. | |
bad at knitting, she made everyone hold up their knitting, I thought | :22:34. | :22:37. | |
she would praise me, and she slateed my knitting and said it was | :22:37. | :22:43. | |
the worst kniting in the whole class. What kind of reading did you | :22:43. | :22:50. | |
enjoy? I have William's Happy Days. I loved Just William. There are 30 | :22:50. | :22:55. | |
or so book about him. I modelled myself on William, because he was | :22:56. | :23:01. | |
very heavily sarcastic and had a wonderful way of saying, "huh, I | :23:01. | :23:06. | |
like that", I used to say that to my parents. EnI said I was coming | :23:06. | :23:11. | |
to interview - when I said I was coming to interview Julia Donaldson, | :23:11. | :23:16. | |
people said, The Gruffalo, selling over four million copies, are you | :23:16. | :23:21. | |
worried it dwarfs all your other work? I don't know if it dwarfs and | :23:21. | :23:25. | |
that is the right word. That is a cuddley trampoline for the other | :23:25. | :23:29. | |
book, a springboard for the other books. Just coming here today, I | :23:29. | :23:34. | |
popped into a couple of classrooms, actually none of them mentioned The | :23:35. | :23:42. | |
Gruffalo, one said Tiddleer, and the other was What The Ladybird | :23:42. | :23:49. | |
Heard, I dedicated that to this school. You have the new role, | :23:49. | :23:52. | |
children's laureate, following the steps of others, what will you | :23:52. | :23:57. | |
bring to the role? One thing I'm planning to do is a tour of | :23:57. | :24:00. | |
libraries were not only do I get children to act out my stories, but | :24:00. | :24:06. | |
I ask them to come ready with something they have worked up, like | :24:06. | :24:10. | |
a dramatisation of a picture book a class poem or something. There was | :24:10. | :24:17. | |
a little bit of criticism of you being chosen as Children's Laureate, | :24:17. | :24:21. | |
one children's author blogged that he had nothing against Julia, your | :24:21. | :24:26. | |
books are great, but he wishes they would pick someone more interesting, | :24:26. | :24:31. | |
every time I see one of the white doddery laureates on table, it | :24:31. | :24:37. | |
seems to be the stery type of kids fiction. It is superficial to | :24:37. | :24:43. | |
dismiss someone in terms of their colour or class, it is a very | :24:43. | :24:47. | |
superficial perception. Honestly, that's water off a duck's back for | :24:47. | :24:52. | |
me. Loot of your work with children takes place in libraries, but you | :24:52. | :24:56. | |
are concerned about the closure of some of them? Very much so, | :24:56. | :25:00. | |
especially for children. Because libraries are really the places | :25:00. | :25:05. | |
where lots and lots of children discover their taste in reading. | :25:05. | :25:09. | |
They are well used by children. Even very little pre-school | :25:09. | :25:14. | |
children, they can go to the library with their parents, or | :25:14. | :25:21. | |
their carers, delve in the picture books, grab books off the shelves, | :25:21. | :25:25. | |
the parents mighting surprised what their child's taste is. Without - | :25:25. | :25:28. | |
might be surprised what their child's taste is. Without libraries | :25:28. | :25:33. | |
we will lose a lot of them. Never mind the cult of Mervyn Peake, in | :25:33. | :25:39. | |
my office it is a cult of Julia Donaldson, when I mentioned I was | :25:40. | :25:44. | |
interviewing her many started chanting The Gruffalo. I was | :25:44. | :25:48. | |
listening to the interview and I was smiling it brought back my | :25:48. | :25:52. | |
years as a primary school teacher and the power of picture books to | :25:52. | :25:56. | |
children, and reading to children, and her work is extraordinary. To | :25:56. | :26:01. | |
cast her as somebody in a cosy world is crazy, read her books. The | :26:01. | :26:06. | |
Gruffalo is fabulous, its use of rhyme, rhythm, song, very cheeky, a | :26:06. | :26:11. | |
lot of drama, a lot of fun. What you have to remember is when you | :26:11. | :26:13. | |
are teaching children, you are teaching them how to learn to read, | :26:13. | :26:20. | |
but also enjoy reading, and her books do that. You are not exactly | :26:20. | :26:24. | |
the target audience for The Gruffalo? One the less it is very | :26:24. | :26:28. | |
interesting. It is about the power of the imagination, this mouse | :26:28. | :26:38. | |
:26:38. | :26:41. | ||
thinks up a The Gruffalo's Child, and there's a The Gruffalo's Child, | :26:41. | :26:49. | |
- there is a Gruffalo. That book The Teenage Cracks t about the boy | :26:49. | :26:59. | |
:26:59. | :27:03. | ||
being shown how to read Macbeth. When he has to get the literature | :27:03. | :27:13. | |
out. Also her answer was perfect. | :27:13. | :27:17. | |
This is not what literature is about. It is an often overused | :27:17. | :27:25. | |
phrase. She's a brilliant choice as Poet Laureate because of what she | :27:25. | :27:28. | |
said about libraries, we are having the principles of free and fair | :27:28. | :27:33. | |
access to education of books taken away under our noses. It is an | :27:33. | :27:36. | |
enormous issue, we will not be able to get the library service back. | :27:37. | :27:41. | |
The fact that the first thing she said as Children's Laureate is | :27:41. | :27:44. | |
libraries matter t could make all the difference to saving some of | :27:44. | :27:53. | |
the libraries. What do you make of her? This is five hours after my | :27:53. | :27:57. | |
usual date with Julia Donaldson. There is something relentless about | :27:57. | :28:03. | |
her. She's wonderful news. But aside from her masterpieces which | :28:03. | :28:11. | |
are the Gruffalo and the Snail snail, there is a lot of stuff that | :28:11. | :28:20. | |
is painful. The rieling Rhyming Rabbit I found it painful. My | :28:20. | :28:25. | |
three-year-old skoon didn't like it, he scratched the glitter off. | :28:25. | :28:33. | |
old for him. It was fabulous. Do you see it as a golden age of | :28:33. | :28:37. | |
children's books, are there are temptations, computer games? | :28:37. | :28:42. | |
think it is, one of the things the Children's Laureate does, is not | :28:42. | :28:46. | |
just celebrating children's authors is illustrators as well, people | :28:46. | :28:50. | |
like Anthony Brown, showing how the power of pictures, we were looking | :28:50. | :28:54. | |
at Gormenghast, pictures, how powerful they are in story telling. | :28:54. | :28:59. | |
The golden age now is actually for young adult fiction, I agree with | :28:59. | :29:05. | |
John, her teenage book, Running The Crack, I thought it was wonderful. | :29:05. | :29:14. | |
You have Philip Pullman, you have abilityy McGowan, they transcend | :29:14. | :29:21. | |
the genre of young adults, they are enjoyable as novels. It is an | :29:21. | :29:26. | |
incredible time. I will read the Rhyming Rabbit to you after. | :29:26. | :29:33. | |
can tuck him up after. There is an offer. From literature for children, | :29:33. | :29:38. | |
back to books written very much for adults. Earlier this week in | :29:38. | :29:42. | |
glaitering ceremony in London, Philip Roth - a glittering ceremony | :29:43. | :29:46. | |
in London, Philip Roth was given the Man Booker prize. We met up | :29:46. | :29:51. | |
with him in his home in rural Connecticut to discuss, death, | :29:51. | :29:55. | |
writing and loneliness. First of all, what is you're action to | :29:55. | :30:02. | |
winning the international Man Booker? Surprise. I didn't even | :30:02. | :30:07. | |
know I was nominated, my agent called and told me I won. You win | :30:07. | :30:11. | |
something, you're happy. You were described as irrepressible, what do | :30:11. | :30:19. | |
you think was meant by that? don't know that people try to | :30:19. | :30:24. | |
repress me. When my energy was rising and others were ebbing, I | :30:24. | :30:29. | |
think I was found energetic. I haven't had to be irrepressible, I | :30:29. | :30:33. | |
haven't had that many obstacles to overcome, some like many writers | :30:33. | :30:39. | |
but not that many. You say writing has to be larger, darker and deeper | :30:39. | :30:44. | |
than life, how do you summon your strength for that? Life is pretty | :30:44. | :30:51. | |
dark and pretty deep. It is all determined from the kind of writer | :30:51. | :30:58. | |
you are at the beginning. The ernestness you approach with at the | :30:58. | :31:06. | |
beginning, the seriousness that develops very quickly. You must be | :31:06. | :31:16. | |
:31:16. | :31:23. | ||
interested in what you are writing. When I'm working I get frustrated, | :31:23. | :31:29. | |
and can't proceed. You can panic. What I try to remind myself, when | :31:29. | :31:35. | |
that happens, is that my goal isn't to write a book. The book is | :31:35. | :31:39. | |
unimportant, my goal is to write the sentence. In a sentence my goal | :31:39. | :31:45. | |
is to attach one word to another. I tell myself, like a child, that's | :31:45. | :31:50. | |
all you have to do. Is attach one word to another. And within the | :31:50. | :31:54. | |
word, all you have to do is attach one letter to another. So I reduce | :31:54. | :31:59. | |
it to its childish terms. I sometimes leaf through it and | :31:59. | :32:03. | |
remember, you just have to proceed one letter at a time. Wouldn't | :32:03. | :32:07. | |
people be surprised to think that Philip Roth panics? I don't think | :32:07. | :32:15. | |
so! Not now, surely? Well, you know, the panic is overstating it. I | :32:15. | :32:22. | |
don't run around screaming, but I become frustrated very often in | :32:22. | :32:27. | |
writing. When you can't proceed, when you don't know what to write | :32:27. | :32:35. | |
next. So I have this strategy to comfort me. One of the criticisms | :32:35. | :32:41. | |
that has been raised by Jews and non-Jews is, I remember one | :32:41. | :32:44. | |
headline, why does Philip Roth hate the Jews. Do you think there is an | :32:44. | :32:52. | |
element in American is society that doesn't think it is actually right | :32:52. | :32:58. | |
to either satirise or build on trophs among the Jew, even now? | :32:58. | :33:04. | |
don't think that Jewish readers have a hard time with me any longer. | :33:04. | :33:11. | |
The generation that did have either died, or have shut up. Or think it | :33:11. | :33:16. | |
is a hopeless cause. They are not going to stop. When I began I ran | :33:16. | :33:25. | |
into a lot of trouble. In 1958, I think it was, before going to | :33:25. | :33:29. | |
Columbus, I published my first short story in the New Yorker, it | :33:29. | :33:35. | |
was called Defender of the Faith. This story caused a sensation among | :33:35. | :33:43. | |
New Yorker readers, it also prompt the ceremony Mondays from rabbis | :33:43. | :33:50. | |
calling me an anti-Semite, and a self-hating Jew. It was strong, I | :33:50. | :33:55. | |
was 25. I just was out of the gate, you know. And this came flying at | :33:55. | :34:01. | |
me. But it didn't hold you back? it seemed to have encouraged the | :34:01. | :34:06. | |
opposite. What did your mother and father make of that at the time? | :34:06. | :34:10. | |
They never understood the charges against me, but they were troubled | :34:10. | :34:20. | |
by them. After Portnoy's Complaint, there was renewed attack, for good | :34:20. | :34:25. | |
reason, I suppose. I was with my mother one day and in her apartment, | :34:26. | :34:30. | |
she suddenly turned to me and she was very sweet, and conventional, | :34:30. | :34:40. | |
:34:40. | :34:43. | ||
and she said, "Philip, are you anti-semmitic", I said what do you | :34:43. | :34:50. | |
think, and she wanted to know why they said it. They were | :34:50. | :34:54. | |
tremendously proud of me, even if I was anti-Semite, they would have | :34:54. | :34:58. | |
been proud of me, I would have been the best. It is said you are | :34:58. | :35:06. | |
unfliching about the Jews, you are very - unflinching about the Jews, | :35:06. | :35:13. | |
you are very hard on yourself? I shouldn't be. No. I exploit in my | :35:13. | :35:19. | |
background and history what is exploitable and go on. I try to, | :35:19. | :35:24. | |
cast a cold eye on everything. are very much the senior figure in | :35:24. | :35:29. | |
a generation of writers, many of whom are very close to you. Do you | :35:29. | :35:37. | |
feel their absence? Yes. The writers I suppose I was closest to, | :35:37. | :35:46. | |
as a friend, were Sol Bello18 years older than I was, dead now eight | :35:46. | :35:54. | |
years I guess. Bill Styra, he was five years older than I am who went | :35:54. | :36:00. | |
through a hell of an ending in his life. What was it you said last | :36:00. | :36:06. | |
night "they were all businessed and now they are all dead". Bill could | :36:06. | :36:13. | |
drink,'s the generation of writer- drinkers, these were the fellas in | :36:13. | :36:19. | |
World War II, a few of them were heavy drinkers, and Bill was one. | :36:19. | :36:23. | |
Was that the same for Hemingway? was the model, yes, about how to be | :36:23. | :36:33. | |
a writer and not be a sissys, and how to be a writer and be a man. In | :36:33. | :36:37. | |
their eyes. You were criticised for the sexual activities in Portnoy's | :36:37. | :36:45. | |
Complaint, and recently criticised for sexual activity in The Humbling. | :36:45. | :36:48. | |
Is there something about Americans that they don't like the idea that | :36:48. | :36:52. | |
we are all living longer and sex will figure in people's lives for | :36:52. | :36:55. | |
longer but they don't want to hear about it? It is an easy handle by | :36:55. | :37:01. | |
which to pick up a book. But in Portnoy's Complaint, largely it was | :37:01. | :37:05. | |
the issue. There weren't graphic descriptions of sexual activity, | :37:05. | :37:13. | |
there was someone who was, not unlike Congressman Weiner, obsessed | :37:13. | :37:20. | |
by sex. In The Humbling, there is nothing much to speak about, it is | :37:20. | :37:26. | |
not a book about sex. I thought there was a bit of a rage about old | :37:26. | :37:31. | |
age and infirmity in that? It is about a man in a decline. I think | :37:31. | :37:38. | |
he's in his 60s. It's about man losing things, it is about losing | :37:38. | :37:44. | |
things. What the effect on him is. The primary thing he lose, he's an | :37:44. | :37:48. | |
actor, is his ability to act, he can't act any more. The first line | :37:48. | :37:57. | |
of the book is, "he lost his magic ". Then he has an odd affair, but | :37:57. | :38:03. | |
passionate, he loses this young woman. And he can't take all his | :38:03. | :38:10. | |
losses, so he kills himself. I know rage, just taking a look at it. | :38:10. | :38:13. | |
have written when you are a writer you are someone else. You say you | :38:13. | :38:21. | |
are no longer a son, a brother and a husband, you can only be a writer. | :38:21. | :38:27. | |
You remove yourself from everything around you? I think that one's | :38:27. | :38:37. | |
:38:37. | :38:38. | ||
ethical restraints, one's customary caution, has to drop away, so that | :38:38. | :38:43. | |
you can freely tell the story. So if you are being a good son while | :38:43. | :38:49. | |
you are writing, it is going to be a book by a good son. A book about | :38:49. | :38:57. | |
a good son is interesting, but a book by is good son is slander. So | :38:57. | :39:03. | |
I love that aspect of it, which is the freedom. Your former wife, | :39:03. | :39:07. | |
Claire Bloom, since we have been separated he has published a book a | :39:07. | :39:11. | |
year, you can't write at that rate if you have a life. He has a life | :39:11. | :39:20. | |
he wants, but it is not a life. I come here and I expect to find you | :39:20. | :39:24. | |
in splendid isolation, it doesn't seem like that? Well, there you go. | :39:24. | :39:28. | |
Do you have any regrets about things you might have done or not | :39:28. | :39:32. | |
done? You mean writing. Or family, you are clearly such family man, | :39:32. | :39:36. | |
when you write about your own family it is with a huge amount of | :39:37. | :39:41. | |
tenderness, do you regret not having a family of your own? | :39:41. | :39:50. | |
don't seem to regret that. It is a fact in my biography, I have some | :39:50. | :39:58. | |
regrets. It wouldn't have been a life without regrets. I used to | :39:58. | :40:06. | |
have a friend, who is dead now, an American writer, her name is Josie | :40:06. | :40:09. | |
Hurst, I remember her saying to me when I first met her, one of the | :40:10. | :40:13. | |
reasons I liked her so much. I was complaining about a huge mistake I | :40:13. | :40:18. | |
made in my life around that time. What was that? Oh, I married | :40:18. | :40:23. | |
somebody. That is just a mistake, something that happens. Josie said | :40:23. | :40:30. | |
to me, if it weren't for my mistakes I would still be back at | :40:30. | :40:36. | |
Souix City Iowa. I thought, that is true. So your mistakes propel you | :40:36. | :40:40. | |
forward. You are not alone among writers, but certainly fewer | :40:41. | :40:45. | |
writers in their 70s seem to be at the height of their powers. It | :40:45. | :40:51. | |
seems you have more in you now, and in the last few years, and your | :40:51. | :40:56. | |
write something very strong? really don't notice any difference | :40:56. | :41:03. | |
in the way I approach a new book, and nor have I noticed any slowing | :41:03. | :41:08. | |
up or down. My last books have been short. The last four have been | :41:08. | :41:13. | |
short. Whether a long novel is in the offing, I don't know. Does | :41:13. | :41:17. | |
writing about modern America interest you? The state of America | :41:17. | :41:27. | |
:41:27. | :41:28. | ||
at the moment? No. I seem to be 20- 40 years behind. So I will have to | :41:28. | :41:33. | |
live to be 110 to write about 9/11. Which of course you may well do? | :41:33. | :41:41. | |
You think so. You come here then. Do you ever get lonely here? | :41:41. | :41:46. | |
Sometimes. Is that something you just have to deal with. It is not | :41:46. | :41:55. | |
that bad. Sometimes I get lonely, and then I think but I have no | :41:55. | :42:01. | |
friction. And that beats the loneliness. Can you not deal with | :42:01. | :42:05. | |
friction? Not any more, I don't want it any more. I don't want it, | :42:05. | :42:09. | |
it is a great blessing. You are assuming if somebody else was here | :42:09. | :42:15. | |
there would be friction? Yeah. It There certainly has been in the | :42:15. | :42:18. | |
past. I can understand how people coming here, it is very much your | :42:18. | :42:23. | |
place, it would be difficult for someone to parachute in? You know, | :42:23. | :42:32. | |
no, not really. The solitude can be wonderful. And yeah, I don't mind | :42:32. | :42:39. | |
being alone. Sometimes one gets lonely, but that happens any way. | :42:39. | :42:45. | |
It isn't attached to the place particularly. But you have been | :42:45. | :42:49. | |
here for so long you couldn't imagine being anywhere else. Will | :42:49. | :42:54. | |
you be taken out of here in a box? That may well happen. You would | :42:54. | :43:01. | |
stay here forever, though? Yes. Philip Roth, in 2011, embarking on | :43:01. | :43:07. | |
a new book, and when will we see it? I don't know, I feel no | :43:07. | :43:17. | |
compulsion to produce a book you know. I enjoy sometimes the work, | :43:17. | :43:22. | |
but finishing it, all that finishing it means, is I have to | :43:22. | :43:27. | |
start yet again. That's hell. you're trying to cheat yourself? | :43:27. | :43:34. | |
That's right. Yeah. Your You're trying to make this one last a long | :43:34. | :43:39. | |
time? That's right. What if you live another 20 years? I will be in | :43:39. | :43:41. | |
trouble. Philip Roth thank you very much. | :43:41. | :43:46. | |
So, John, let's begin with the prize, you were the judge, I think, | :43:46. | :43:54. | |
or chair of the judges for the first Man Booker, He must have been | :43:54. | :43:59. | |
a contender? We put out a long list of 18 names, he was in it. What is | :43:59. | :44:04. | |
your view of his work? Wonderful. That was a wonderful interview, it | :44:04. | :44:08. | |
showed his seriousness and his humour always go together. There is | :44:08. | :44:13. | |
a playfulness there? Beautifully playful. That is there from the | :44:13. | :44:20. | |
start. As early as Zuckerman Unbound, that unbounds, he flies to | :44:20. | :44:25. | |
where his father is dying, he reads on the plane how they discovered | :44:25. | :44:29. | |
the Cosmos, he his 50 years they will remake it. He goes to his | :44:29. | :44:34. | |
father and tells him about astronomy to lift his spirits, his | :44:35. | :44:41. | |
father says "bastard" and Nathan says maybe he said better or | :44:41. | :44:45. | |
something else. He's tragic and terribly funny, he's always like | :44:45. | :44:48. | |
that. For this prize he was a controversial choice, Carmen Callil | :44:48. | :44:53. | |
says he goes on and on about the same suggest in almost every single | :44:53. | :44:59. | |
book. She says it is as though he's sitting on your face and you can't | :44:59. | :45:02. | |
breathe, a slightly strange choice of words? A brave man. I understand | :45:02. | :45:06. | |
what she was saying, I enormously enjoyed that interview. I | :45:07. | :45:09. | |
absolutely think that Philip Roth is one of the most important living | :45:09. | :45:16. | |
writers. But I don't think he's the only one. And I do think that many | :45:16. | :45:22. | |
of the obsessions of his characters and him as author, as reader, as | :45:22. | :45:27. | |
character in the book, are of interest to men and not to me as a | :45:27. | :45:31. | |
woman. So I have read not all of his books but many of them. I go | :45:31. | :45:37. | |
back and I try. For this I read Portnoy's Complaint, I can see that | :45:37. | :45:41. | |
it's really clever, and I think that he succeeds completely in what | :45:41. | :45:47. | |
he sets out to do. But I don't enjoy the writing. I find the | :45:47. | :45:51. | |
relentless descriptions of ejaculating into socks just a bit | :45:51. | :45:58. | |
boring! There is a lot of that. You have to be fair. Not just socks, I | :45:58. | :46:01. | |
remember liver! I think Callil's suffering a little bit because of | :46:01. | :46:05. | |
the brilliance of her metaphor as well. I again have a certain degree | :46:05. | :46:10. | |
of sympathy with her, I'm an enormous Roth fan, I think he | :46:10. | :46:14. | |
absolutely should have won the prize. If you look at the recent | :46:14. | :46:19. | |
stuff, Exit Ghost, the Humbling, awful, these are not good books, | :46:19. | :46:25. | |
not good novels. And they are the same things, this very tired | :46:25. | :46:28. | |
linkage between death of the libido and death of the body. Then he | :46:28. | :46:33. | |
comes up with Nemisis, a masterpiece a beautiful novel, and | :46:33. | :46:38. | |
kind of makes Carmen Callil eat her words. Dying Animal is very good on | :46:38. | :46:44. | |
ageing, what he talked about there on ageing. I don't actually agree | :46:44. | :46:51. | |
that the later novels are all so bad. But what I also like about him | :46:51. | :46:55. | |
is how to take an enormous theme, think of a novel like Operation | :46:55. | :47:00. | |
Shylock: A Confession, or a novel like the one on lindburg winning | :47:00. | :47:06. | |
the election Plot Against America. A huge theme which he nevertheless | :47:06. | :47:14. | |
treats in an intimate and interestingly human way. That is a | :47:14. | :47:18. | |
collosal feat of the imagination to it that. It is about the narrowness | :47:18. | :47:23. | |
of vision, he takes the small town life in Newark and makes it | :47:23. | :47:29. | |
universal. I was thinking of the glove factory in America America, | :47:29. | :47:34. | |
it is this beautiful en- American Pastoral, it is the beautiful | :47:34. | :47:40. | |
engagement that makes it great. only read one book, The Plot | :47:40. | :47:43. | |
Against America, it stayed with me for a long time. Because of the | :47:43. | :47:46. | |
universal issues, but at the same time it is very, very personal, | :47:46. | :47:52. | |
from what I can pick up, from what I have read, he wanted to write | :47:53. | :47:55. | |
something about his parents in their prime. It is interesting in | :47:55. | :47:59. | |
the interview that he talks about not writing about modern America, | :47:59. | :48:04. | |
but some of the themes that he talk about in the Plot Against America, | :48:04. | :48:09. | |
like the suspension of civil liberties, what happens when people | :48:09. | :48:12. | |
are repressed, are so current. loved in the interview the | :48:12. | :48:16. | |
description of the process of writer, I wondered if you, as a | :48:16. | :48:21. | |
writer, would have imthee, the word one after another? I thought that | :48:21. | :48:25. | |
was just superb, that was a masterclass, everything is redeemed | :48:25. | :48:29. | |
by that interview. It was perfect. That is exactly how it does goes T | :48:29. | :48:33. | |
doesn't matter what sort of books you write, that description of it, | :48:33. | :48:38. | |
the other great person talking on this Stephen King, his book on | :48:38. | :48:45. | |
writing is like that. That sense mafpb who understands who he is as | :48:45. | :48:49. | |
a write - of a man who understands who he is as a writer was great. | :48:49. | :48:55. | |
The thing about ining with the prize is he will not win the - | :48:55. | :49:04. | |
winning the prize, is he will not win the Nobel but he can win this. | :49:04. | :49:07. | |
Great tribute there. Can you find out more information on all | :49:07. | :49:14. | |
us know your thoughts on Twitter, we digest them in the Green Room | :49:14. | :49:21. | |
afterwards, especially Alex. Next week Kirsty will be here discussing | :49:22. | :49:28. |