10/11/2013 The Review Show

Tonight on review, a minstrel show about a miscarriage of justice.

Controversial sex scenes in the top prizewinner at Cannes. The feminist

who signed a mistress contracts Campaigning documentaries on racism

and AIDS. And modern Art's most important prize, plus the afterlife

of Aztec Camera. Music from Roddy Frame. Hello, on the show this month

blue was the warmest colour, the film which one that Palme D'Or at

Cannes but left one actress saying she had been treated like a

prostitute. True story of a teacher who chose to sell sex in return for

a house and Zadie Smith's fictional account of a woman treated as

domestic slave. We explore prejudice against Australian Aboriginal people

and against gay men with AIDS in two new documentaries by John Pilger and

David France. We will also be discussing this year's Turner Prize

which actually contains portraits. Joining me to debate all of that is

the right Bonnie Greer, author Paul Morley and journalists Sarfraz

Manzoor. First tonight, you may have heard of the shocking case of the

The Scottsboro Boys, who were falsely accused of raping 1930s

Alabama, but can you imagine that story told as a minstrel show? Well,

that was the vision of the giants of musical theatre Kander and Ebb,

known for hits like Cabaret, Chicago and the song New York, New York

Now, their acclaimed production which was devised with David

Thompson and Susan Stroman, has arrived from Broadway to London s

Young Vic Theatre. Thank you, boys. The Scottsboro Boys

is about nine boys who were riding the train one morning in 1931,

looking for work and they were pulled off that train and accused of

raping two white women. It was not true, it did not happen but what

happened at that point macro was a series of trials would take them

over the course of several decades and spark a national conversation

about race and in particular galvanise what would become the

American civil rights movement. . # That's the custom here in Alabama

#. The reporters said the early trials

were like minstrel shows. The minstrel form was America's top

intimate -- entertainment form for almost 100 years. It had an

incredible presence and as such it has an incredible vocabulary.

We were never concerned about the use of the minstrel form is being

controversial. We knew that it was the right way to tell the story One

thing that Fred ebb said repeatedly was we had 2010 the audience because

if you don't the material is too horrible and the audience will pull

away. # Nothing but joy #.

Sarfraz, that is a very interesting, almost dangerous notion, the idea of

subverting the minstrel show with its racist tradition. How did you

find that? I was interested in the film when David Thompson said they

had to sweeten the story to make it entertaining, otherwise people would

pull away. It was trying so much to be entertaining, to try to lighten

it, to try and find dark comedy and I don't think that works because the

thing about the minstrel thing is essentially this is a story about an

alleged case of rape but when you start making white people played by

the black characters, the shock and injustice of that is lost so I felt

actually people in the audience were not sure whether they should be

laughing or disappointed and angry and it fell between two stalls.

Isn't that part of the danger of it, that part of you wanted to laugh and

yet it was so disturbing at the same time. It shook the audience up. One

reason it shook the audience obesity is a bad show. It is a bad Kander

and Ebb. It is second rate Kander and Ebb. Bad as a musical. It is

bad, as you tickle, second-rate -- second-rate as a musical. How can we

make the worst kind of musical and see if we can get away with it, they

come up with springtime for Hitler, this is springtime for Hitler. I sat

there and thought to myself, this is actually the most dangerous show in

London if you are black writer, a black actor, a black director, then

I thought, pull back a minute because it is not a bad thing that

The Young Vic decided to do this. On paper it makes perfect sense. The

cast are wonderful and I don't want to put them down. It is just that

the whole thing is no good and it doesn't actually address what it

sets out to do in musical comedy terms, political terms or any other

of its messages. OK, that could not be not damning. If you are going to

approach this kind of thing the one thing you are going to do with

dedicated great series of creative, transcendent moment so that you

demonstrate you are treating the subject seriously. This, for me

constantly made me uneasy because I constantly felt that I was being

served up the kind of entertainment that was originally so reviled,

obviously, because it is so appalling. Wasn't it subverting it?

No, it never was. If you are enjoying this you are still enjoying

people blacking up, enjoying the cakewalk and yet within its there is

not a sophisticated kind of telling of this story. It is buffoonery and

these people went through this. . There is a song about the electric

chair, which is almost a tap dance. What did you think? If it was done

well you can get away with anything. But I don't think it was. One thing

is I did think it was sad because the individual performances for

fantastic. They were charismatic. The other problem is structurally,

in terms of how it was structured, there were big problems. During the

show one of the stories is that one of the girls who claims and alleges

rape changes her mind but we never get told why that happens. I have

done a lot of research on The Scottsboro Boys. They did not tell

the true story, that is the thing that annoyed me. They didn't tell

the whole thing. They sacrificed it for entertainment value. It was

cheap entertainment value. Also to pick up on something Paul said, if

this was a real minstrel show they would have had eggs thrown at them

on stage, that is how lame the whole thing is. The idea of the moral

anger you should feel about that story is being lost. Isn't it

introducing the moral anger to a wider audience, people who don't

know about The Scottsboro Boys? No, I don't think so. You could tell

somebody the Spanish -- unvarnished truth. They don't tell the whole

story. They were not all looking for work, that is not true. On that

train. If you have a creative response to its, the way they treat

a Jewish lawyer is terrible, but I still think within it and all the

featuring you have to make, if the score and the intelligent can

application had been more transcendent, because of the fact is

weak they are not taking it seriously. Unanimity from our panel

here. I liked it more than you guys but we will talk later. The

Scottsboro Boys is that The Young Vic until December the 21st.

According to one controversial documentary out this month similar

discrimination is biting the lives of the Australian Aboriginal

community in the 21st century - blighting. Throughout his 40 year

career John Pilger has made films that admirers describe as crusades

and critics polemic. Utopia, his latest, returns to a subject he

covered decades ago. Why so many of the original inhabitants of

Australia continue to live in squalor. Meanwhile another

campaigning documentary, how to survive the plague, tells the story

of a group of amateur activists in New York and raged at what they saw

lacklustre and homophobic as digits towards the glowing AIDS epidemic

and the severe lack of investment in potentially life-saving drugs took

on the establishment in a battle for survival. We are in the middle of

the plague, 40 million infected people is a plague! It tell the

story that I watched unfold as a journalist in the 80s and 90s, the

story of a group of people who had no scientific background other than

their own fierce will to live and a desire to save their community from

annihilation. I started to look for treatments to help save my life I

will wish they would shut their life mouths. There was nothing coming out

of our government's efforts. They march in the streets and defy. I

decided to become a full-time AIDS activist. We are as good as dead.

I have made a number of films about injustice Australia and what was

striking about filming this one was that the original film I made, the

secret country in 1985, I went back to places where I had filmed all

those years ago and in fact in the edit at one point we confused

ourselves, the footage of then and now. There was no difference.

We are meant to be doing primary health care, when really we haven't

got the basic needs of a human being under wraps yet. It is sanitation,

water, shelter. We rounded people look into our own

concentration camps. In fact what we have done from the original invasion

to now is constantly reduce Aboriginal people to a subhuman

status. I suppose I have never accepted the fact that the first

people of my country have been denied justice for so long and have

been and has had a real impoverishment forced on them for so

many years. The policy says you are black Aboriginal Australian, you are

not wanted on this earth. Paul, this is John Pilger documentary Utopia,

clearly strongly authored, clearly his own take on the subject. It is

very difficult to watch Australian Masterchef after this, I must say. I

don't mind it is so one-sided, supposedly. I don't mind it is his

point of view because the other point of view is reality itself the

corporate world, the mainstream world. You don't want to invite them

into much because they are one-sided, the reality itself is

one-sided. I love the idea that it is so dynamically just his own

opinion. I think it is also quite poignant there isn't as much as this

stuff on television any more. You used to see this kind of stuff all

the time because the point of the investigative journalist is to be

the opposition to the forces that will be complaining that it is

one-sided. To one-sided? It is brilliant it is on ITV, and it is

clearly a polemic. It has the strength and the weaknesses of that.

The strengths are that you totally believe him in the sense that this

is what he believes, it is impassioned, he is not trying to

sugar-coat it like the The Scottsboro Boys did but the

limitations are it feels like you are being harangued for an hour and

15 minutes with one note, one argument being bashed, so I felt for

example some of the interview clips felt manipulative. He does a series

of vox pops and some sound like they have had a few drinks. These with

white Australians on Australia Day. Asking if they know about the

history of the people. It felt one-sided, that things were placed.

He knew the answer he wanted to get and everything was structured

towards it. Ultimately I agree with what his argument is but it still

felt like a slightly tiring, being browbeaten. Did you feel harangued?

John Pilger does what he says on the tin. All the time. John Pilger uses

the documentary form. He is not documentary maker, Hughes is the

former is an activist. What he wants you to do is take to the streets.

Let me give you something else, he doesn't really want you to take and

sit and think about this, he wants you to get up off your bottom and do

something. You look at this documentary and I did and I thought,

how long does Australia get away with this? This is going on for 100

years and we are still sitting around talking about going to

Australia, why aren't they boycotted? How does this keep going

on? What came across in the documentary, in a sense, was this

extraordinary illusion they have created. Australia has really

whitened it out unbelievably. Although, as the boring BBC

journalist, on the other hand.. You don't want that. There is enough of

that in the world. They showed an Aboriginal guy and I think he is in

a police station and he seems to have had quite a lot of drink. The

way it was edited was to make out, oh, my gosh, what a racist woman in

a situation, and everything was skewed to that argument. In a way,

he comes from the same background, John Pilger, as the people he is

demonising, and in a way there is a bit of liberal white guilt. He was

leading his witnesses and eye fell some of the interviews to and allow

the Aboriginal people to speak for themselves. -- I felt. Their answers

were, yes, no. There are Aboriginal politicians, very active, on the

right. And we didn't hear their voices. Again, if you are coming to

this for the first time, you have to make some assumptions about it. You

know John Pilger's work and you pretty much no... But that is an

excuse. It is not an excuse. These are pieces in the form of

documentaries. What a nearby art is that he has shaped them, formed

them, you wants you to feel something. -- what I mean by art.

But the fact he is returning to things he has already done shows a

level of commitment to the subject but it is also interesting going

back on your own previous work. But that is what I mean by art. But you

also need a sledgehammer. Now and then we get this kind of thing from

people like John Pilger and it has to be like this. Is the idea of a

sledgehammer is that you will persuade people, it is not always

how you persuade people to watch something. We had John Pilger, very

experienced film-maker. How To Survive A Plague, by somebody who

has not done this before. Not as obvious and author the's voice. What

did you think of that? I think that demonstrated all of the weaknesses

of that. I've felt it was essentially a lot of footage that

was found that they did not quite know what to do with. And he did

describe it as found footage. It didn't have a voice-over or seem to

be structured that well. Ultimately, they didn't feel like I was in the

hands of somebody who had a craft to tell that story. This is a nearer

you knew a lot about. I was there, I was in the village 30 years ago and

are lost about 35 friends. We all sat around when my friend Kramer

brought the real heart around and we talked about, how are we going to do

this play and present it? Because AIDS was seen as the fault of the

people with the disease. We just know how to do this. We would sit

around and watch people reading this play. It was hard to watch. To me,

that era was about suicide, funerals, hold table falls of drugs

that people have to take every day. Parents coming from Iowa to take

their kids back from Greenwich Village. Being a young person and

having to see all of your friends die like that before they are 3

years old. This scold you for the rest of your life. I don't know

anything about this film-maker but that story is a bunch of marchers.

They should be many, many kaleidoscopic responses to this

particular era. There should be And there isn't so we have got one here.

So I would forgive it many of its... Occasionally it is energetic

and simplifications are there of what happened, but if I could

imagine they would be a bunch of other impressions, for me, what this

did is what The Scottsboro Boys didn't do, and it left me feeling

there had been a great piece that had been done. Obviously if you know

what has been missing... But today, we are at a big crisis about the

affordable care. Obama care. When people couldn't get public health

care, this is what happened. So it is actually talking today to people

about an era. So it is more about now. The other interesting thing is

that the idea of the era coincides with the of camcorders, so the fact

that you had all this footage wouldn't have necessarily happened

in previous pandemics. But by referencing and telling the stories

of those individuals, it's likely lost something. I'd know you are

more into the sledgehammer thing. But the Jesse character, he was

cited as a bogeyman. He was! . I would question whether now his

family feel differently about what their father did compared with now.

This was the movement warts and all, it felt like. It is powerful seeing

people have a life span within the nature of the film. You are seeing

people alive, energetic, and then you start to get the skin thing and

then they die. It is a powerful moment. But the reason it does exist

is because it is a message to America today. Oath of those

documentaries are clearly great talking points and you can watch

them yourselves. Can you imagine a and intelligent woman -- and

intelligent woman offering a contract for services. Another

story, the Embassy of Canberra - Cambodia, is about enforced

servitude. Zadie Smith's new offering enters

the little-known world of domestic workers. African housemaid Fatou

lives than enslaved existence punctuated only by her surreptitious

swanning visits to a local gym at the unwitting expense of her

employers. Every Monday, on her way to the swimming pool, she passes The

Embassy Of Cambodia. It is only a four or five bedroom suburban villa

built in the 1930s surrounded by a redbrick wall about eight feet high.

And back and forth, cresting this wall horizontally flies shuttlecock.

They are playing badminton in The Embassy Of Cambodia. The game of

badminton is a metaphor for Fatou's life, each chapter counting the

score from zero to 21. From every log of hope she is batted with the

smash of disappointment. But it explores the themes of prejudice,

faith and globalisation. The fact is, if we followed the history of

every little country in this world in its dramatic as well as quiet

times, would have no space in which to live our own lives or apply

ourselves to our necessary tasks, never mind indulging in occasional

pleasures like swimming. In 1981, educated bright mother of

three involved in the feminist movement sent an extraordinary

document her lover, a contract. He would provide her with a house and

income and she would provide him with mistress services. He signed. I

have a common mistress. This goes back to a period where women, by

being complied with mail wishes received substantial rewards. They

had a position. Security. It was an even exchange. This is still true

but women now wish to limit from the exchange all the assumption that

their bodies are part of the trade. I understand this. They are

bargaining from weak position and I would rather not. Aware of the

unusual nature of their transaction, the couple decide to take their

conversations on the telephone, in bed and in restaurants. -- to

record. 30 years later, these conversations appear in published

form. Women spend all their time making decisions or none, not

enjoying. Many women will, sometime in the future, have more peaceable

lovemaking. It hasn't with us. I've been with you for many years and

I've never entered your bed reluctantly. Oh, never!

On the surface, this is an intriguing concept about the balance

of power between the sexes. What did you think? Well, I do not

necessarily believe these people are real! I know you said that in your

cue but I'm not sure people would actually be speaking so stilted

league, so I'm not entirely sure it is authentic. But putting that

aside, I found the whole thing utterly cynical. The cover of a book

looks like a film poster. It seems to have allusions to 50 shades of

grey, except for, and there is going to be a play based on it, and yet at

the heart of it it feels like something which, even if these

people are real, they speaking and yet at the heart of it it feels like

something which, even if these people are real, they speak in an

inauthentic, so I found it quite... I just found it did the financial

nature of that transaction impact on their nature? I found myself

unusually reluctant to engage with it as a thing. To even discuss it!

What is good for me is that I have realised have a gift I can give to

people. It is a vile, vile piece of work! And it makes you wonder

whoever is involved with it, what on earth are they doing?! I wish the

critics have the power... Well, we never did but we imagined we did. To

say, you can never do anything in this world again! It felt like. .

Everything you say I absolutely agree with. I'd just thought, first

of all, is this real? I wasn't sure. This can't be real. Anything said by

he, she, your eyebrow has to go up. But then I'd thought, it has to be

real. The imagined myself being trapped on a rail line going out at

6:15pm between two of the most boring, self-centred, banal account

executives talking about some gadget that they were trying to... But

doesn't the boringness speak to it about possibly being real? No, no,

no. People don't talk like that No. It is icky as well. Regardless of

whether it is real or not, it streams towards universality. In the

text, they say, we want to be representative of all men and all

women. But all good art comes from specificity. And so the things that

make the woman specific, whether it is her mastectomy, whether it is

about the guy having had this other woman in Seattle, these things are

brushed over in this yearning desire to be universal. But are they

brushed over? Because there is another creepy bit with her

depression and he talks about how much more he prefers sex when she is

depressed. Kander and Ebb should have made a musical out of this

This I would have gone to see because it would have been an

incredible New York satire with the dialogue. You have the ultimate

piece of work like this, and you go to a work like that because you will

find wit and some idea of the world. Two people you want to engage with.

It isn't going to be a musical but it will be a play. Abby Morgan is

going to adapt it. If you take it as an object that is going to be

contrived, even if you take it seriously that there are ideas and

there, the ideas as they are going to be translated into a serious

context, that is really disturbing. But some of the most absurd things

ever written turn out to be wonderful onstage. This is likely

first raft of When Harry Met Sally! Let's move on to a different book.

The Embassy Of Cambodia by Zadie Smith. I think it shares a lot of

the things with The Mistress Contract because it is a weird kind

of gift book. Let them read Zadie Smith. It is a short story in The

New Yorker, technically very lovely. But I am still distracted. I'm

trying not to be because it seems again to be coming away from

whatever is in the story, but I am still distracted by the idea that it

is in a book now. That it has become a book. You are queueing up at

Waterstones and you have bought what you bought and you grab the Zadie

Smith, they'll gift books. -- they are gift books. But I wonder that we

are complaining about the over edited nature of books, isn't this

something special? There is something economic about it. Though

I have to say in its defence, it lingered in my mind and in my

thoughts for a lot longer and the irony is, you were saying there were

comparisons between them. The character in this book is clearly

fictional but feels real. In a way that in the other book they are

meant to be real but they feel fictional. And I've felt this was

actually... It felt like it was a brief glance at the character who is

bigger than this book. This is the character Fatou who is the African

maid and effectively a domestic slave. Zadie Smith is a big heart.

You know this woman. She has a wonderful ear and she is an observer

of people. She is in a mimicking stage for something. It is kind of

like quake -- lightweight. There is a bit where she talks about is a

poet would be, she talks about Willesden. I am still not convinced

of Willesden as a Monday in her world yet. It is still not... It is

still her landscape? Been rubbing it is better hearing her. She has

miniaturised it is a bit. It is not Willesden I recognised. Here it is a

bit different. It is a flaky thing. I am wondering whether there is a

series of stories that build up and they are produced in this way. It

might be kind of interesting. Nothing that Rizzi -- redeems this

book and will linger with me is that Zadie Smith, her love golf human

being. -- her love of human beings. She's a writer with a big heart

Both The Embassy of Cambodia and the mistress contracts are out now. It

is 30 years since singer songwriter Roddy Frame with the band Aztec

Camera released High Land Hard Rain, widely considered a

cornerstone album for British guitar pop. To celebrate its anniversary

Roddy will be touring the UK December and will be hearing a

classic track from that album later in the show. Now, in his first

television appearance in more than 14 years, here is a song from his

new album due out next spring. This is white pony.

# Make a wish, get an invitation on your favourite station

# You made something out of nothing # An afternoon song and memory

# See the flower of your heart mine is opening to

# Don't let it dry # You will drive a car

# Over the edge # Of a cliff

# Learn to ride a white pony, fly and keep the feeling in your bones

for when the days are tracking and the nights are lonely

# School where our fathers learned # Beneath the bounds of open-air

# Still frost, our hearts # So we go out, knocking around

# Talking about # The weekend

# Inside freezing over can't hide you are thinking like a stone

# And all you want is a nasty feeling

# So go try on the night # The dress, the shoes, the games

# It's not for ever # The art of who you are

Is # In the night I hope that you've

found love that will rise and the sound

# Life is fast chasing after good times

# Flashed past and then you realise sometimes

# You've got to stop and look around #.

And you can hear full more from Roddy at the end of the show. The

sexually explicit drama Blue is the Warmest Colour took the Palme D Or

at this year's Cannes Film Festival but has been dogged by controversy

ever since. The film's lead actresses told the press that I --

that the director's demands on sets left exhausted and one said the

experience made her feel like a prostitute while the director

himself subsequently stated those allegations had sullied his film and

even threatened that it might not be released in cinemas. There seems to

have been something of a rapprochement as the film-maker and

one of his stars were in London together recently to promote the

film which is out this month. The film charts a passionate affair

between Emma, an art student played by Lea Seydoux and Adele, a teenage

schoolgirl played by Adele Exarchopoulos. It follows Adele s

awakening as she embraces her sexual identity and becomes news to her

older lover. Everything is new for her, she is out of high school, she

hasn't got much experience but she wants to try everything.

He may say that but the film is also notable for its lengthy, graphic sex

scenes. Ella Bobbin I can understand that it is the story sometimes the

people but for us it was important to show people. Sex is legal and

important for everyone. The tension on set has been well

documented. The director required multiple retakes of key scenes and

his camera keeps a close eye on Adele throughout.

At the heart of this film is a coming-of-age story, isn't it? This

is about two people, a young girl, a young person, who discovers who she

is. She discovers her first love and the pain of that and it is very much

the kind of film true folk would have made if he were alive today. It

is like that, all the way down to the heroin which reminds me of

another film. It is the whole idea of loss, of redemption, even the end

of it is like the film where she walks away. It is a very beautiful

film. It is a traditional art movie. It is poignant, nostalgic in a time

when arts cinema seems to have a possibility to change things. There

was an idealistic optimism, if you like. What I notice more than

anything is that when you release this kind of so-called art cinema

now it becomes a celebrity and gets torn apart as if it is just a famous

thing, another thing that has happened this week. So there is

something interesting in that for me and I found it sort of nostalgic for

an old kind of cinema because it is super -- superficially contemporary

but there are no mobile phones or computers, it is set in a dream

world and cinema is important and of course it is not any more. We have

this very vulnerable young girl both the character and actually from

what we can gather the actress as well. I wasn't as seduced by it It

did look beautiful and the performances are astonishingly

nationalistic but as I was watching it, because of the three lengthy sex

scenes I kept asking myself was the price worth it to get to this

performance and to get to this moment? -- naturalistic. When you

read the interviews and what they have said, I know there has been

some sort of rapprochement now but she was 18 when she made this and

when you hear about 100 takes and it took ten days to film ten minutes

there is a bit of me wonders whether the price to be paid was worth it

for what you end up getting on-screen. I knew very little about

it when I first saw it but there was still something slightly disturbing

about those scenes in the sense of the male gaze, that is what I felt

quite strongly. The whole of cinema is a white, male gaze to be blunt

about it. That is what it is. The other part of this is this... That

is a bit specific, isn't it? That is the way things are, I am not sure I

-- saying how it should be. The second thing is this film owes

nothing to American or British cinema or American or British

sensibility, nothing. This is a completely European and French film

and the fact that these scenes took so long is not about what happened

in them, it is to show you the banality of it. See, what

happens... What... It is the will power of the film-maker to still

feel what he is doing is important. You could have extracted those

minutes of sexy easily. What you are left with an away is what ultimately

the film is like and I often feel at this stage people who talk about in

such a way to watch enough soaps because in the end for me it is

soapy, more ordinary than the hysterical elevation of it to work

as art suggests. The three sex fiends overshadow the tenderness and

the comedy and politics because there are some interesting scenes

about class whether parents are introduced and one of the parents as

working class and its past and meatballs and the other it's wasters

and wine and there are lovely, tender moments but I felt basically

the explicit scenes overshadowed that and then it kind of

slightly... If you remember the camera, the film is all in close-up

very, very much so. So the sex scenes have to be this way. Because

these are young people. When she eats, it is messy. When they have

sex, it is in a magazine approved way. I did not feel that way about

it at all. They were too easy on the eye to make it a truly great film.

These are two young ladies. It has to go through a certain process to

be like that. You have to see what they did and how they did it because

it is about their relationship, it is about who she is and in the end

when she walks away that is also about who she is. I think it is an

amazing piece of work. Two hours and 50. If it was any shorter it would

be salacious and he had to give it that amount of time because it took

that away, took that element right out of it. You can make your mind up

about the film, Blue is the Warmest Colour is going to be in cinemas

from November 22. More controversy now is it is Turner Prize time

again. Each year this contemporary Art award grabs headlines, provokes

the ire of countless columnists and stimulate debate about the

state-of-the-art world. 2013 is the first time in its history that the

prize has left England's shawls and decamped to Derry-Londonderry, the

UK's current City of Culture. A converted army barracks is the venue

for four different artists with very different approaches. Ranging from

the conceptual to the very comic. I think it changes people's view of

the city as a former military base so it is great to see it have a

completely new life. Installation artist Laure Prouvost makes a

surprisingly unsettling film. One of these showing against the backdrop

of an abandoned tea party documents are relationship between her

fictional grandfather and the German artist in the film.

Tino Sehgal is best known for the events he constructs in which she

want allowed to be filmed or photographed. It involves volunteers

approaching visitors and asking for their views on the market economy.

It was a lot about social change. How communication these days is

instant and revolutions can happen quite quickly. David Shrigley

injects a healthy dose of humour into the more serious contemporary

art world. His witty and macabre slogans can often be found on

postcards. But the centrepiece of this exhibit is an animal

animatronic model which peas into a bucket. And there's even a painter

on the short list. Lynette Yiadom-Boakye is the first black

woman to appear in the prize. Her work is about how black subjects

have been traditionally portrayed. We have our diverse range of medium

is being used and presented and I think anybody who comes into this

space will be really excited by what they see.

Well, Bonnie, let's enter this exhibition in the way you do, in the

barracks, and first, David Shrigley, the artist, the rather comic figure.

What did you make of that? It is like a drawing class. I was there

and a lot of children were there and they loved it. And to watch all of

these young people engage with it. There wasn't any censorship or fear.

They just took the piece of the sculpture that they could relate to

and they process it through themselves Andrew it and that is

what he wanted. -- they processed it and drew it. The animatronic man

himself isn't particularly well done in the way they drew it. It was a

nice way to enter because it was so witty. And unlike the way there was

a democratic sense. Everyone from Martin McGuinness to the little

kids, all touring around them. I don't think it is necessarily the

most substantial or weighty entrants in the exhibition but was a way to

walk in. And the body itself is so out of proportion that nobody could

do a good drawing of it! Everybody's drawings were bad. It is

a very good way of taking the sting out of the usual Turner Prize

nonsense of "is it art? " . Everybody can respond. And the

response is a lovely occurs in a way it is the replacement of the critics

that you can respond in this way and I'd prefer this way rather than the

bits at the end when you describe how you felt. -- it is a lovely

response. It is very much that sense of, let's remove some of that sense

of controversy by having a lovely introduction to what is about to

happen. And there was whimsy, too, really. This work is based on her

fictional grandfather, the tea party, and so on. It descends into

absurdity and you can't quite decide whether the grandfather is real of

entry. I think it outstayed its well, my wasn't quite sure how it

integrated. -- eventually. I didn't feel like it was particularly well

integrated together. They could argue that the darkness of the pot

is added to this ghostly, slightly surreal feel about it. I felt like

when you went into those caves in France with the prehistoric people

who made the first drawings. There was a primal feeling. It was very

storytelling. People were very quiet. They sat around and listened.

It was half dark. And the story began to be woven in front. People

were whispering to each other, is it real, is it not real? That is ready

what this was all about. Very much about the whole basic primal nature

of the narrative. And also the fire... And the failure, because you

had a chair propped up by one of the bits of the fictional grandfather

and the work of art. This is the Turner Prize piece that is

questioning the nature of art. And you get that sense of

self-consciousness about its own worth, and then that creeping is

when you have to go into the tunnel into another room. This is

grandma's dream. Yes. And that fragmentation of narrative is

exciting but it takes a lot of time to work out. Let's go to the

imaginary portraits by Lynette Yiadom-Boakye. And her idea, really,

is that she has taken these fragments she has collected in scrap

hooks, glances of people, and created these portraits. And each

one is created in a day alone. I've found this mesmerising. You say they

are portraits and they aren't really true but in some way she was

creating an archive that hasn't been created in the past. Because these

are all the people who would not necessarily historically have been

painted. So I've felt in their looseness and the way they look at

the camera, the tenderness and intimacy in their relaxerness, they

look like people caught on camera very gently in the moment. And they

did feel real to me. I thought this was somebody trying to excavate a

reclaim the story and a past that had not been captured so far, so for

me that was a standout. I sell very much an expose response to these.

They were very provocative and transgressive. You walk into a

gallery that looks a bit on scale, like paintings by Manet and we're,

the 19th-century heroic tradition. -- and Goya. People would have been

very tiny in these paintings and in the background, and she puts them in

the foreground but uses the techniques of a David or queer. And

these portraits are huge. She does these in a day. And that is what is

funny. That's what makes you laugh because she is laughing at this

whole idea of this kind of mighty Western mail dominance. -- male

dominance. If I hadn't known that they would on the way she did then,

there was a lot about it I felt I needed to know to make sense and if

I had just come in on them, the idea that they are fragments from a

narrative that is a complete, the idea that they are very in the

history of art, if I didn't know any of that, how would I have felt if I

do know that? Let's move on to the last one. A gigantic, empty space at

first until you are approached by an interpreter. This is Tino Sehgal.

Yes, who starts by asking you your view on the market economy and if

you get the answer right at the end you get ?2! It sounds good on paper

as a concept but I've felt a bit flat about it. One of the reasons

is, this was originally from 20 3, and you think, the conversations we

would have been having back then would be very different from now but

there is no recording of any of this stuff. It is very difficult to get

any sense of perspective for linearity about it. I didn't know

anything about this guy and nobody told me anything about him. So I

walked in there and this is the only piece, and I'd guess if you are

going to have this at the Turner Prize, you have to have something

about this sort of the prize. This is non-narrative. There is no

narrative here. The questions you ask the work itself. In fact, it is

good at that. Even to ask that question is it. Do you see what I'm

mean? I think it had a very strong sense of place because it was in

Ireland and a lot of people ended up talking about housing, property the

crash. And it rooted it in Derry. I would give the prize to Derry. The

closest you can get to that is this because this is local people... You

know, talking about... They are the installation, if you like.

Absolutely. It is by far and away the most grown-up of the four

pieces. I would love to see what he is doing in 20, 25 years. I don t

want to know what the others are doing even next year. Exactly. Even

when I was there, a bunch of guys came in, the questions were asked,

local Derry men, they were absolutely incensed. They left the

room mumbling and almost violently left, and I thought, that is it I

love Paul's idea of giving the prize for Derry because this was such a

special exhibition for a town that has been through so much. Use to

coverage in the Troubles. The decisions taken over Bloody Sunday.

It has now been transformed. -- are used to cover it. I had never been

to Derry, Londonderry, so for me, my association with it is about the

Turner Prize. So just the fact that might association with it is art and

culture rather than what it was is indicative of what art can do. If

you would like to see this exhibition for yourself in Derry,

Londonderry, the exhibition runs until fabric the fifth. The winners

will be announced on the 22nd of December. If you want to find out

more about any of the items featured on this show, do go to the website,

and you can always follow us on Twitter. Thank you to my guests

Paul Morley, Bonnie Greer and Sarfraz Manzoor. We leave you now

with more music from Roddy Frame and an absolute classic from High Land

Hard Rain. # From the mountain tops down to the

sunny street. # A different drum is playing a

different kind of beat. # It's like a mystery that never

ends. # I see you crying and I want to

kill your friends. # I hear your footsteps in the

street. # It won't be long before we meet.

# It's obvious. # Just count me in and count me out.

# And I'll be waiting for the shout. # Oblivious.

# Met Mo and she's OK, said no-one really changed.

# Got different badges but they wear them just the same.

# But down by the ballroom I recognised that flaming fountain.

# In those kindered caring eyes # I hear your footsteps in the

street. # It won't be long before we meet.

# It's obvious. # Just count me in and count me out.

# And I'll be waiting for the shout. # Oblivious.

# I hope it haunts me till I'm hopeless.

# I hope it hits you when you go. # And sometimes on the edge of

sleeping. # It rises up to let me know it s

not so deep. # I'm not so slow.

# They are calling all the shots music

# They have got the bullets and there's no one left to shoot.

# I hear your footsteps in the street.

# It won't be long before we meet. # It's obvious.

# Just count me in and count me out. # And I'll be waiting for the shout.

# Oblivious. # I hear your footsteps in the

street. # It won't be long before we meet.

# It's obvious. # Just count me in and count me out.

# And I'll be waiting for the shout. # Oblivious.