The Then and Now of Muhammad Ali


The Then and Now of Muhammad Ali

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Transcript


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Hello and welcome.

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I first met Muhammad Ali in 1968,

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a year or so after he'd been stripped

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of his world heavyweight title

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for refusing, on religious grounds, to fight in Vietnam.

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Throughout the next few pivotal years of his life, we met often

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and talked on television at least seven or eight times.

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A good preparation for taking a look, as we're about to do,

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at Muhammad Ali as he was then and Muhammad Ali as he is now.

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ROAR OF CROWD

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COMMENTATOR: 'Oh! That left caught him! It came from nowhere.

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'Ali makes two with the left.

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'The crowd screaming.

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'The first knockdown in the fight he took the mandatory eight.

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'And now Ali is behaving like the old Ali.

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'One more knockdown in this round, the fight is automatically over.

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'He is running.

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'If he goes down again...

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'It's over! Ali is the knockout winner

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'at two minutes and three seconds,

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'by my unofficial clock, of the final round.'

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Tell me, when you were boxing,

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which did you regard as your strongest hand,

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your right or your left?

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Really?

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Why is it, do you think, that over the years

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black boxers do better than white boxers?

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What would be your advice to young boxers today?

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Hit and run!

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As you drive into Muhammad Ali's spacious 88-acre estate

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in southwest Michigan,

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first you glimpse a comfortable farmhouse.

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Then you drive on to the office building

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where Muhammad and his wife Lonnie work with their staff.

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They are the offices of GOAT,

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an acronym for Greatest Of All Time.

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Few would disagree.

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Muhammad, it's 34 years since we first met. How are you?

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But feeling good?

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Do you think that the Parkinson's that you've got

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was caused by boxing.

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Despite the Parkinson's,

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your mind is just as good, isn't it, today, as it ever was?

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Perhaps better.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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He makes appearances, but for different types of legislation,

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especially when it comes to funding.

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I think what bothers him more is when he sees young adults

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affected by this disease, and it is a very insidious disease.

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I mean,

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his association with Michael J Fox and the Michael J Fox Foundation,

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I think Michael had a big impact on Muhammad

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because Michael's still young and, you know,

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he has young children, a young wife, and Muhammad could say,

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"I've lived most of my life".

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But this is a young guy who has gotten this.

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And Michael's very affected by this illness, this disease.

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He doesn't let it stop him

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but his motor functions are very much affected by it.

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And with the new drugs, it could...it could get better.

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Or not worse - could get better.

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It's always up and down.

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It's always trying to adjust and re-adjust

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because I think the body becomes immune to things eventually.

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And with Muhammad, it's particular difficult

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because his body's so fine-tuned.

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As we've just seen,

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one of the major contrasts in Muhammad's life then and now

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is his physical condition, waging a brave fight

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against the most remorseless opponent he has ever had to fight -

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Parkinson's.

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After some of the more lurid newspaper stories

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we've read about his health over the years,

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I must say my first emotion was a sense of relief,

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that Muhammad had not lost the characteristic sense of humour

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and natural intelligence

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that had delighted the world ever since his career began.

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We started by reminiscing about those early days.

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What was your first memory of throwing a punch? How old were you?

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Did you know then you were going to be famous, when you were a kid?

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Cassius Clay, as he then was, first achieved world recognition

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when he won the heavyweight gold medal at the Rome Olympics of 1960.

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He and his team-mates made no attempt to conceal their delight.

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After you'd won the gold medal in the Olympics

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and you went back home to Louisville,

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and in fact, the five and dime store wouldn't serve you,

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did you really throw your Olympic gold medal into the Ohio River?

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You really did throw it in the river?

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And in fact, you got that gold medal...

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they gave you a new gold medal in 1996, at Atlanta, didn't they?

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And in those early days in Miami, just before you were training...

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when you were training there, that was when you met,

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would you say one of the most important people in your life,

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Malcolm X?

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Was he one of the most important people in your life?

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And you really liked Malcolm X, did you?

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Of all the fights, what's your greatest memory? Which one?

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Yeah.

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Just four weeks before Muhammad's greatest fight,

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I was fortunate enough to be at his training camp

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in Deer Lake for an interview.

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After we'd climbed into the ring,

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what followed was vintage Ali.

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No problem.

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LAUGHTER

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No problem. This will be the biggest upset since Sonny Liston.

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And I think it is befitting

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that I go out of boxing just like I came in -

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defeating a big, bad monster that nobody could destroy.

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A hard punch. I'm the underdog.

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If he hits me, I'm in trouble, like the Sonny Liston fight.

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But I came back and I shook the world when I got Liston.

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Now it's ten years since Sonny Liston,

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I'm meeting another big, bad, strong monster,

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knockout artist that beats everybody.

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Sonny Liston knocked out Patterson twice and I was supposed to fall.

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But he didn't knock me out because...

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He could hit hard but he couldn't find nothing to hit.

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George Foreman knocked out Ken Norton,

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knocked out Joe Frazier.

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True, I didn't knock him out but I'm so fast,

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I'm so hard, so scientific - I'm a totally different man from Frazier.

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Listen, David, when I meet this man, if you think the world was surprised

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when Nixon resigned, wait till I whip Foreman's behind!

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LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE

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I'm telling you, David, I'm down to 215 pounds, right now sat here

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weighing 215, I'm fighting weight already.

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I usually train six weeks for a fight.

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I've trained four months for this fight, I'm chopping trees,

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I've done something special - I've wrestled with an alligator.

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I believe you totally.

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-I believe you completely.

-I have tussled with a whale,

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I've handcuffed lighting, throw thunder in jail.

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You know I'm bad. Only last week I murdered a rock, injured a stone,

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hospitalised a brick, I'm so mean I make medicine sick.

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LAUGHTER

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Man's in trouble.

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Listen, people are afraid of George Foreman,

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they talk about how hard he hits - the world has been deceived.

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You listen, I've never told you wrong, the man don't hit hard,

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he knocked Joe Frazier down six times, he got up six times.

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Jose King Roman, the Puerto Rican fighter,

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he knocked him down three times, he jumped up three times.

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He knocked Ken Norton down four times, he jumped up four times.

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When have you ever seen the man say seven, eight, nine, ten...

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Count this man out.

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When I hit Sonny Liston, he stayed out for the count of ten.

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Zora Folley stayed out for the count of ten,

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Cleveland Williams stayed out for the count of ten.

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What few I haven't knocked out stayed down.

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Sugar Ray Robinson I knocked him out for the count of 30, Joe Lewis,

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Marciano, Jack Dempsey, Jack Johnson,

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Archie Moore, they knock 'em out cold,

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so this man has never knocked nobody out cold, he's a bully.

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He's slow, he has no skill, no footwork, he's awkward,

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and I have given him a name...

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I named Floyd Patterson the Rabbit, I named Sonny Liston the Bear,

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and he shall be known officially as the Mummy!

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APPLAUSE

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The Mummy.

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Why the Mummy?

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Because when he's fighting, if you ever watch him in the ring,

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he drags like this at his opponent.

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LAUGHTER

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And how's a mummy ever going to catch me?

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When you're fighting a mummy, you just keep a step ahead of the mummy,

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yeah, just move on the mummy.

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Nope, mummy, I'm over here. Nope, mummy I'm over here...

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No, you're moving too fast, the Mummy don't move that fast!

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Let me tell you something, David,

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I shall be the Mummy's curse that night.

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-Have you heard of the Mummy's curse?

-Have I heard of the Mummy's curse?

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Yes, it's going to be some fight.

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The greatest fight, the greatest event of all time

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when I get to Kinshasa, Zaire.

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Two billion people will watch the fight

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and that's ten times the population of America.

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That's like a country ten times bigger than America.

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Two billion people, to give you an idea how many people that is,

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two billion people will fill an arena of 100,000 seats

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every night with new faces for 170 years.

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-That's a great...

-A hundred thousand people every night,

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new faces, for 170 years and I draw that crowd, not George Foreman.

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It's my beautiful looks, it's my skill, um, it's my va-va-voom-ness.

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Your beauty and your humble...

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I think first of all it's your humbleness

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and then it's your beauty, isn't it?

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Cos when you look in the mirror in the morning,

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it must be a wonderful experience.

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You know, I've been in the ring now for probably 20 years

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and I'm as pretty as you(!)

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LAUGHTER

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And slightly fitter. Which round is it going to end?

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I'm not predicting the round. Uh, could, but it puts me on the spot.

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You worry about predicting the round and then you might get him early

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and then you'd carry on to that round or you might slip up

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and get hurt, there's too much pressure.

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I predict, David, that I'm going to out-dance him,

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I'm going to stick him, I'm going to be three times as fast,

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I'm going to punch him at will.

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I might not knock him out cold but I'll TKO him. I predict a TKO.

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I predict that the fight will be stopped on cuts or bruises.

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I'll humiliate him. Humiliation will stop this fight.

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The referee will just step in and stop cos I'll just be

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popping at will, popping and sticking and moving and I'm constant...

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I'm popping at will until the man will just have to stop it.

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You mean, it's going to be the first world title ever stopped on the grounds of humiliation?

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No, they've stopped a few of mine for that

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and they've stopped other ones,

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but I'm serious, this man has two chances - slim and none.

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-The man is in trouble.

-The man...

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-He's got problems.

-He's got problems.

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Have you done any...apart from wrestling with an alligator,

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have you done anything special this time, diets?

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Not just boxers, any athlete has to refrain from anything

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that is bad for his health.

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So, therefore...

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Especially when you have a strenuous sport, football, baseball,

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basketball, wrestling, anything that takes stamina is hard

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and anybody watching this evening, you yourself, you get up

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and jump around - man or woman - scuffle with someone,

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jump around with them for three minutes and watch how tired you get.

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Serious wrestling and competition is tiresome

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and for 15 rounds before 150,000 people, knowing two billion

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people are watching, takes a lot out of you. It makes your...

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You got the world's greatest fighter and one of the world's best

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taking punches at your face, your body, little hard gloves on,

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and everything at stake, your futures, your lives,

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your family's investments, everything's at stake - this worries you.

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The pressure and the excitement, the drama.

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Even people who come to fights are nervous, and many of the fans here

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and yourself, I mean, the night you go to the fight, you'll be nervous

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just waiting for the bell to ring.

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Finally these two men are going to clash, who's going to win,

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Muhammad Ali or George Foreman?

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-Both of them are great, one's got to fall, right?

-Yeah!

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Somebody's got to leave and you're excited.

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You're not as dumb as you look, fella!

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LAUGHTER

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Was rope-a-dope something you planned

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or something you thought of on the night?

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Are boxers today as good as they were in your day, or is boxing today

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not as good as it was in your day?

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And Mike Tyson, I mean,

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should they have banned Mike Tyson?

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Well, originally he bit off

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part of Evander Holyfield's ear, originally.

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That is bad, isn't it?

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And then later on, he got in a fight

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in a press conference with Lennox Lewis.

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But Mike Tyson is not necessarily a good example to young people.

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Is it better, when you're fighting, when you're boxing,

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is it better to go into the ring

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calm and cool or angry?

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I mean, you've done both, probably, but which is better?

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If you had your time over again, though, would you, Muhammad,

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have retired earlier - maybe in '77 or '79?

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Tell me, which is worse.

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Which is the greatest fear for a boxer going into the ring.

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Is it the fear of getting hurt or the fear of losing -

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which is the worst?

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Who had the strongest punch against you?

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Who put the hardest punches at you, Muhammad?

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HE SNORES

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Was it George Foreman or Joe Frazier or Spinks or who?

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HE SNORES

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Carry on, or shall we stop for a break?

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We'll just take a couple of minutes?

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He's teasing.

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DAVID LAUGHS

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You did that brilliantly, we didn't know.

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That's the first time I've thought that someone I'm interviewing

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had fallen asleep! You had us all going there.

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Yep.

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After Cassius Clay exchanged what he used to call his slave name

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for the name Muhammad Ali in 1964,

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under the influence of Elijah Muhammad

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he became an increasingly militant advocate for the blacks of America.

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I'm not here to advise or meet nobody. I'm just shocked and...shook up over

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hearing about the people and the children and the pregnant women that have been brutalised

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and mistreated here in Kentucky.

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And at this moment, when I'm expected to go overseas

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to help free the people in South Vietnam,

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and at the same time, my people here are being brutalized and mistreated,

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and this has disturbed me more than what's happening in Vietnam.

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You told me 34 years ago that all white men were devils.

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I believe that all white people are devils. I'm not going to be phoney.

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I've given up 10 million in fighting,

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I'll go to jail for five years,

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and you think I'm going to get on this TV show and deny

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what I believe?

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-No.

-I believe every bit of it.

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-I know. I'm just...

-Tell white people, defend yourself,

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and challenge this man.

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I challenge you now. In the sense that...

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I don't disagree with the fact that some white people...

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some white people are devils...

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The Christian Bible says all white people are devils.

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The Christian Bible says all people are sinful.

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It says all white Gentiles and Jews are devils.

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-No, it says all people are sinful.

-In the Christian Bible.

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-If we say that the whole world...

-Have you time to stop the show and let me get my briefcase?

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-Yeah, sure.

-Can you stop the tape for a minute?

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-We'll keep the tape running...

-Let me get my briefcase...

-Get it in four hundredths of a second...

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Right. Well, he's just going to...

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prove to us that all white people are devils.

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We'll keep the tape running and...

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..and wait for him to return.

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Here we are.

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It says here in Romans...

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-Romans?

-..third chapter,

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and ninth verse...

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"What then," it says, "are we better they?

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"No and no wise, for we have before proved

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"both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin.

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"As it is written, there is non-righteous. No, not one."

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That proves what I said because that includes you and the blacks...

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-It says Jews and Gentiles.

-The Greek word for Gentiles means...

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The Greek word for Gentiles means non-Jews.

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You've got a marvellous case. You're ruining it by going too far.

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-Prove I'm going too far.

-Prove to me that it happened every day.

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What I'm doing is right.

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We couldn't preach this every day if it wasn't right.

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-Look, if you're going to...

-Nobody challenges us,

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-not even the white government - everybody knows we preach.

-I challenged you and I was right.

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-You're not right. Jews and Gentiles, which is white people...

-Gentiles means BLACK people...

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-No. Gentiles means white people.

-Gentiles means everyone who isn't a Jew.

-Gentiles means white people.

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You don't really believe that now, do you?

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A dramatic example of Muhammad Ali then and now.

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After our first interview in 1968, I said to him that he was sounding

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a bit like a black George Wallace,

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referring to the white supremacist governor of Alabama.

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Nevertheless, his warmth and humanity still came through.

0:27:520:27:56

I said to him that if only he could change the rhetoric,

0:27:560:27:58

he could be a black Bobby Kennedy,

0:27:580:28:01

rather than a black George Wallace.

0:28:010:28:04

Over the years, not because I said so, he has made that journey.

0:28:040:28:09

He just said there, not all white men are devils,

0:28:090:28:11

anybody could be evil, it's the mentality not the colour.

0:28:110:28:16

Things are different now in Louisville, aren't they?

0:28:160:28:19

The blacks get a better deal in Louisville today, don't they?

0:28:190:28:25

Muhammad Ali is the man who, as an individual,

0:29:040:29:08

has stood for so many things.

0:29:080:29:10

He stood primarily for the fact that we must all come together

0:29:100:29:13

and live in peace.

0:29:130:29:15

I'd like to present a proclamation to Muhammad and Lonnie

0:29:150:29:19

at this very time.

0:29:190:29:21

The Ali Center is really a legacy to the ideals,

0:29:210:29:23

the beliefs and the values of Muhammad Ali.

0:29:230:29:27

If you look at the man,

0:29:270:29:29

an evolution of the man,

0:29:290:29:30

you can learn a lot.

0:29:300:29:32

I thought his footprint was too big

0:29:320:29:34

to be left aside.

0:29:340:29:37

It could serve as a guide,

0:29:370:29:39

as a template for children to develop into being

0:29:390:29:43

as great at they wanted to be, just like Muhammad did.

0:29:430:29:47

A simple little boy from Louisville, Kentucky.

0:29:470:29:49

He didn't have much but had a dream.

0:29:490:29:51

And he dreamed big.

0:29:510:29:52

And he always believed in himself.

0:29:520:29:55

When you look at the evolution of this man

0:29:550:29:57

and how he came to be who he is today,

0:29:570:29:59

a world-class citizen, a citizen of the world,

0:29:590:30:04

who is loved by people all over the world,

0:30:040:30:06

regardless of where they come from, their religion,

0:30:060:30:09

their ethnic backgrounds, their political philosophies,

0:30:090:30:12

you have to think, what made this man

0:30:120:30:17

and the way he's able to relate to people.

0:30:170:30:20

Muhammad is one who, seriously, believe it or not,

0:30:200:30:25

even though he was a boxer in the ring, seriously avoids conflict.

0:30:250:30:28

He always tries to work out and find a peaceful resolution,

0:30:280:30:32

even if it's in the household. Um...

0:30:320:30:35

And that too the Center will carry

0:30:370:30:39

because we believe that if there's any one single individual

0:30:390:30:44

who is alive in the world today who could bring people together

0:30:440:30:47

to a table, to talk over their differences

0:30:470:30:51

and find some type of constructive understanding and solution

0:30:510:30:54

to the issues that they have with each other,

0:30:540:30:57

it would be Muhammad.

0:30:570:30:58

Do you think, in terms of the Muslim world and our world,

0:30:580:31:04

that you could act as a bridge

0:31:040:31:08

to help bring understanding?

0:31:080:31:10

How many times did you visit Mecca?

0:31:230:31:26

Was it a fantastic and awe-inspiring experience for you as a...

0:31:300:31:37

After September 11th, you made some great statements.

0:31:530:31:58

Do you think our war against the Taliban and against AlQaeda,

0:31:580:32:03

the Taliban and Al-Qaeda, that's really a just war,

0:32:030:32:07

we're right to try and stop terror?

0:32:070:32:11

So, you... You float like a butterfly with that question?

0:32:490:32:55

Who are you most grateful to for your career?

0:32:590:33:03

What way is Allah different from the God I believe in?

0:33:340:33:37

Is Allah different? In what way is he different?

0:33:370:33:40

-Is he more of a man?

-Allah IS a man.

0:33:400:33:44

Where your God is probably a spirit.

0:33:440:33:47

Something that you can't see and is harmless,

0:33:470:33:49

somewhere floating around.

0:33:490:33:52

Our God is on Earth. Allah is on Earth.

0:33:520:33:55

-Is he?

-He's a man. That's why you say God created man in his own image.

0:33:550:33:58

If I make a chair in the image of that chair you're sitting in,

0:33:580:34:01

it'll look like that chair.

0:34:010:34:03

So, God made us in his image. You're telling me God's a man.

0:34:030:34:07

He look like us. And you refer to God as him, right?

0:34:070:34:10

His and he.

0:34:100:34:13

Whether it's a cat, rat or dog, anything of a male sex,

0:34:130:34:17

you refer to it as him, his or he.

0:34:170:34:20

So, if God is a spirit and a spook,

0:34:200:34:22

why do you keep saying he, him and his?

0:34:220:34:24

We teach that God is on Earth.

0:34:240:34:28

He is a supreme being.

0:34:280:34:29

You are a HUMAN being.

0:34:290:34:31

He is a being too but he is supreme over the other beings.

0:34:310:34:34

Do you pray to your God, to Allah?

0:34:340:34:36

I pray every morning at five o'clock.

0:34:360:34:38

My clock rings at 4.30.

0:34:380:34:40

I'm up at five. I take a shower.

0:34:400:34:42

I put my white robe on.

0:34:420:34:46

I put the towel on the floor and I face the east,

0:34:460:34:48

towards Mecca.

0:34:480:34:50

We say, "Surely, I have turned myself to Thee, O Allah.

0:34:500:34:54

"Trying to be upright,

0:34:540:34:55

"to him who has originated the heavens and the Earth.

0:34:550:34:58

"And I'm not of the polytheists.

0:34:580:35:02

"Surely my prayers, my sacrifices, my life and my death

0:35:020:35:05

"are all for Allah, the Lord of all the worlds.

0:35:050:35:07

"No associates has he.

0:35:070:35:08

"This I am commanded.

0:35:080:35:10

"I am of those who submit.

0:35:100:35:12

"O, Allah. Thou art the King.

0:35:120:35:14

"Thou art mine Lord and I am thine servant.

0:35:140:35:17

"I have been greatly unjust to myself

0:35:170:35:20

"and I do confess my fault.

0:35:200:35:22

"So please grant me protection against all my faults.

0:35:220:35:26

"For none grants protection against faults but Thou.

0:35:260:35:29

"And to lead me to the best of morals.

0:35:290:35:32

"For none can turn away from me

0:35:320:35:35

"the worst of morals but Thee.

0:35:350:35:37

"And guide me to the best of morals

0:35:370:35:39

"for none can guide to the best of morals but Thee.

0:35:390:35:42

"O Allah, make the Honourable Elijah Muhammad successful

0:35:420:35:45

"and make the followers of Muhammad

0:35:450:35:47

"successful here in the wilderness of North America

0:35:470:35:51

"as Thou didst make Abraham and the followers of Abraham successful

0:35:510:35:55

"for surely Thou praise are magnified in Thy midst.

0:35:550:35:58

"O Allah, bless Muhammad and bless the followers of Muhammad

0:35:580:36:02

"here in the wilderness of North America

0:36:020:36:04

"as Thou didst bless Abraham and the followers of Abraham

0:36:040:36:08

"for surely Thou art praise and magnified in Thy midst."

0:36:080:36:10

There ain't nothing more beautiful than getting up in the morning,

0:36:100:36:13

brushing your teeth, washing your mouth, removing the sin and evil that you've got from the world.

0:36:130:36:18

Comb your hair, wash the dirt out of your hair.

0:36:180:36:21

Clean your ears - all parts of your body.

0:36:210:36:23

Put a clean white robe on, don't even stand on the dirty floor,

0:36:230:36:26

stand on the towel, no shoes on, facing the east,

0:36:260:36:30

asking the originator of the universe to make me better,

0:36:300:36:34

make me stronger, give me more power.

0:36:340:36:36

This is done five times a day when I can,

0:36:360:36:39

especially when I go to bed -

0:36:390:36:41

another bath, another shower, clean my mouth, pray -

0:36:410:36:44

and at five in the morning, this goes on and when I'm right...

0:36:440:36:48

Now, I didn't do that for the first Frazier fight,

0:36:480:36:50

nor the first Norton fight.

0:36:500:36:53

-Really?

-No, sir.

0:36:530:36:54

My head got big and I started thinking it was my training camp

0:36:540:36:57

and my boxing ability that kept me where I was at

0:36:570:37:00

and God punished me and he gave me a good whoopin'.

0:37:000:37:02

He broke my jaw in the second fight

0:37:020:37:04

and he got me whooped and knocked down in the Frazier fight.

0:37:040:37:07

I realised I wasn't that great after all.

0:37:070:37:09

So, I had to get not only together physically but spiritually.

0:37:090:37:12

For this fight, I've prayed every day for five days,

0:37:120:37:15

five times a day for the past...

0:37:150:37:19

four months and everything is perfect

0:37:190:37:21

and if Allah's with me, there ain't no way no man can win!

0:37:210:37:26

No way!

0:37:260:37:28

When I got Allah and Elijah Muhammad, can't no human being win.

0:37:280:37:32

There is no way, no way,

0:37:320:37:35

cos I'm representing God,

0:37:350:37:37

I'm representing the freedom of black people in America.

0:37:370:37:40

I want to be the one black man who stands up and looks at white people

0:37:400:37:43

and tells the truth, who don't sell them out,

0:37:430:37:45

who don't Uncle Tom, who don't promote cigarettes,

0:37:450:37:48

don't promote whisky,

0:37:480:37:49

take his fame to uplift his little brother in the ghetto

0:37:490:37:52

cos all the other movie stars and all the other people that you know,

0:37:520:37:55

like Diahann Carroll, one you know,

0:37:550:37:57

they all a white man, they want to marry a white

0:37:570:38:00

and they all... They don't think black.

0:38:000:38:02

And on down the line, there's many more I could name,

0:38:020:38:05

make movies hugging on white women.

0:38:050:38:06

They get their fame and they leave their little people.

0:38:060:38:09

So, I'm asking God, Allah, to make me strong, not for me -

0:38:090:38:12

don't give me no money, don't give me the fame.

0:38:120:38:15

I want to win so I can come home

0:38:150:38:17

and speak for the brother who's living in rat-infested houses,

0:38:170:38:20

sleeping on concrete in the ghetto, can't go on television and speak,

0:38:200:38:23

so God, I'm your tool, I'm your servant,

0:38:230:38:26

let me get this man tonight!

0:38:260:38:28

And go out blastin'!

0:38:280:38:29

MEMBERS OF AUDIENCE CHEER

0:38:290:38:31

-That's the way I think.

-That's...

0:38:310:38:33

That is an incredible speech

0:38:330:38:34

and what you do for black pride is absolutely incredible.

0:38:340:38:38

-This is the way I feel.

-What you do for black pride...

0:38:380:38:41

I'm not fighting for me.

0:38:410:38:42

I'm looking at George Foreman, the establishment.

0:38:420:38:45

The flag-waver.

0:38:450:38:46

If he wins, I'm thinking - which is not true -

0:38:460:38:49

but if he wins, we're enslaved for 300 more years.

0:38:490:38:53

If I win, we are free.

0:38:530:38:56

I'm not Foreman, you know that, don't you?

0:38:560:38:58

There's a little forehand. LAUGHTER

0:38:580:39:00

-No, I see Foreman, I don't see a black man, I see you.

-Yeah.

0:39:000:39:04

I see, I see...the White House.

0:39:040:39:06

-LAUGHTER

-I'm not the White House either!

0:39:060:39:09

I see the...I see something white!

0:39:090:39:11

LAUGHTER

0:39:110:39:14

I don't know what he is.

0:39:140:39:16

APPLAUSE

0:39:160:39:18

Ya-ah, ya-ah!

0:39:180:39:20

Cos I'm fighting!

0:39:200:39:22

I'm...fighting slavery! I want to be free!

0:39:230:39:27

-That's what I'm fightin'!

-OK, you can be free. You've persuaded me.

0:39:270:39:31

-You do a fantastic...

-That's the way I think too.

0:39:310:39:34

I just don't be fighting.

0:39:340:39:36

I've got to get my mind like this, see.

0:39:360:39:38

I'm bucking so many odds, and a bad man, too much for me to handle.

0:39:380:39:43

I've got to call on the supreme being to step in, to intervene.

0:39:430:39:46

The same with the Liston fight, I did a lot of praying.

0:39:460:39:49

And same with the giraffe, same with the second Norton fight,

0:39:490:39:52

the second Frazier fight.

0:39:520:39:54

Divine power came in.

0:39:540:39:55

If you watched the last round of Norton, the last round of Frazier,

0:39:550:39:58

you'll find that if I lost the last round with Frazier in this fight, I would have lost the fight.

0:39:580:40:03

If I'd lost the last round of the Norton fight, I'd have lost the fight.

0:40:030:40:07

Those two fights I got a supreme power from the supreme being.

0:40:070:40:13

I started dancing, moving

0:40:130:40:14

and anybody that watched that fight

0:40:140:40:16

don't know how Muhammad Ali came back in them rounds

0:40:160:40:19

cos I prayed to heaven and relied on Allah and I DANCED!

0:40:190:40:22

I DANCED!

0:40:220:40:23

I was diggin' and dancing, I was eatin' Frazier up in that last round.

0:40:230:40:26

Ken Norton came back after a broken jaw, dancing!

0:40:260:40:30

He was fast and I was faster.

0:40:300:40:32

So, this fight - I'm calling all everything.

0:40:320:40:35

Not only my physical ability but all over.

0:40:350:40:39

The supreme being, Allah.

0:40:390:40:41

Muhammad Ali's journey away from the more extreme Nation of Islam

0:40:410:40:46

has not at any stage led him away from his basic faith in Allah.

0:40:460:40:50

That remains constant, then and now.

0:40:500:40:53

His concern for his family has, if anything,

0:40:530:40:56

also grown with the passing years.

0:40:560:40:59

Would you like your son Asaad to go into boxing?

0:40:590:41:03

Why not?

0:41:040:41:05

May not make it.

0:41:140:41:15

What do you think about women's boxing?

0:41:400:41:42

Although he wishes his daughter was not boxing,

0:42:090:42:12

the respectful tolerance of that last answer

0:42:120:42:15

says something about the way his attitude to women

0:42:150:42:18

has developed from then to now.

0:42:180:42:21

This was Muhammad Ali on The David Frost Show, in 1972.

0:42:210:42:26

I think a woman's useless

0:42:260:42:27

if she can't produce a man's generation, his future, you know?

0:42:270:42:31

Did I understand you think a woman is useless unless she can produce a lot of children?

0:42:310:42:36

You think...?

0:42:360:42:37

I mean, I'd buy the food, I'd do all the working

0:42:370:42:39

and all you can do is produce the children.

0:42:390:42:42

And this is what his wife Lonnie has to say about him now.

0:42:420:42:46

He likes dialogue and he likes to talk about religious issues.

0:42:460:42:49

And...especially female issues.

0:42:490:42:52

It's interesting because he really likes to challenge you

0:42:520:42:57

on some of the viewpoints on Islam with women.

0:42:570:42:59

Believe me, when you look at who I am today,

0:42:590:43:03

this is because of Muhammad.

0:43:030:43:04

Muhammad has given me every opportunity in the world to be Superwoman

0:43:040:43:08

and sometimes all I want to do is to retreat to my household

0:43:080:43:11

and be a wife and a mother, forget the rest.

0:43:110:43:14

So, I can't call Muhammad a chauvinist in no sense of the word.

0:43:140:43:18

If you hadn't boxed, what would you have done?

0:43:180:43:20

You could have been a politician.

0:43:310:43:33

What's a normal day now for Muhammad Ali?

0:43:520:43:55

Are you very happy...

0:44:550:44:57

happy and content now, your life with Lonnie...?

0:44:570:45:01

Is this one of the happiest times of your life, despite Parkinson's?

0:45:010:45:06

As you look back over your life now...

0:45:330:45:36

is there anything you'd change in your life, Muhammad?

0:45:360:45:40

Back in 1974, when Muhammad was at my home in London,

0:46:370:46:40

he inscribed this message on a card...

0:46:400:46:43

"A man who sees the world the same way at 60

0:46:450:46:48

"that he did at 30

0:46:480:46:50

"has lived and wasted 30 years of his life."

0:46:500:46:54

Well, it's very clear that Muhammad Ali has not...

0:46:550:46:58

..wasted the last 30 years of HIS life.

0:47:000:47:02

What's the thing you would most like people to say about your life,

0:47:020:47:06

"He was a great champion", or what?

0:47:060:47:08

What would you like people to think about you when you've gone?

0:47:080:47:11

I'd like for them to say, "He took a few cups of love.

0:47:110:47:15

"He took one tablespoon of patience.

0:47:150:47:18

"One tablespoon, teaspoon of generosity.

0:47:180:47:22

"One pint of kindness.

0:47:220:47:24

"He took one quart of laughter, one pinch of concern

0:47:240:47:28

"and then he mixed willingness with happiness,

0:47:280:47:31

"he added lots of faith and he stirred it up well.

0:47:310:47:34

"Then he spread it over a span of a lifetime

0:47:340:47:37

"and he served it to each and every deserving person he met."

0:47:370:47:41

-Muhammad Ali, thank you very much.

-APPLAUSE

0:47:410:47:44

Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd

0:47:530:47:56

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0:47:560:47:59

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