Browse content similar to Episode 1. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
Ian Richard Kyle Paisley had the most extraordinary career in | :00:09. | :00:10. | |
Northern Ireland politics. From militant preacher and street | :00:11. | :00:30. | |
protester... To occupying the highest political office in the | :00:31. | :00:38. | |
land. Never, never, never! From raucous outsider to genial partner | :00:39. | :00:42. | |
in government. His was a life lived in the public eye. I have known the | :00:43. | :00:49. | |
Paisleys for over three decades. Lasted, Ian Paisley agreed to talk | :00:50. | :00:55. | |
to me at length about his role in Northern Ireland's tempestuous and | :00:56. | :00:59. | |
more tranquil years. These conversations reveal dramatic and | :01:00. | :01:02. | |
dark secrets of the Democratic Unionist Party. The Scriptures tell | :01:03. | :01:10. | |
us that so-called friends are probably secret enemies. They will | :01:11. | :01:14. | |
force 's obituary writers to reassess his place in history. It | :01:15. | :01:20. | |
was wrong. It wasn't one man, one vote. That's no way to run a | :01:21. | :01:25. | |
country. These programmes will challenge many of his actions over | :01:26. | :01:30. | |
the years. Is that acceptable? Is it good enough to talk about | :01:31. | :01:34. | |
difficulties? It's all right for you to sit there and say that. These | :01:35. | :01:45. | |
were serious days. They will unmask the hidden world of the Free | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
Presbyterian Church and disclose how Ian Paisley's tenure as moderator | :01:50. | :01:54. | |
ended. If that means I should be kicked in the gutter, kick me in the | :01:55. | :01:58. | |
gutter. If that means I should be chased out of the church, and that I | :01:59. | :02:04. | |
should be rejected as a reject, I have to bear that. That is part of | :02:05. | :02:11. | |
the cross. The programmes will explain why, after years dedicated | :02:12. | :02:16. | |
to smashing Sinn Fein, Ian Paisley ultimately did a deal with | :02:17. | :02:21. | |
Republicans. If we had turned back, God help us, we don't know what we | :02:22. | :02:25. | |
would have come to. How do you define yourself? Are you | :02:26. | :02:41. | |
British, are you an Ulsterman, are you Irish, or are you a combination | :02:42. | :02:46. | |
of all of these? I describe myself as a child of God first of all. I | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
think that many of these things overlap in Amman's life. I know | :02:51. | :02:56. | |
quite a number of Roman Catholic people who are very strongly | :02:57. | :03:01. | |
unionist. I know other Protestant people who perhaps would say we | :03:02. | :03:07. | |
should leave Britain and have a united Ireland. I think that there | :03:08. | :03:13. | |
have been changes because of the make up of people. I'm not asking | :03:14. | :03:22. | |
about other people but I'm asking about you, Ian Paisley. How would | :03:23. | :03:27. | |
you define yourself? I don't need to define myself. I am already known. | :03:28. | :03:33. | |
People have put a label on me, it could be a false label. Would you | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
ever consider yourself in any sense Irish? I am not ashamed to be called | :03:39. | :03:45. | |
an Irishman. I was down recently in Dublin and was entertained by the | :03:46. | :03:49. | |
president. And taken in and treated like a buddy. There was a time where | :03:50. | :03:56. | |
that would have been described as taking the soup. But if the soup was | :03:57. | :04:02. | |
good why not take it? As a Ballymena man, if you get it for nothing, that | :04:03. | :04:09. | |
is a bonus! Ian Paisley was born in 1926 in uncertain times, just five | :04:10. | :04:15. | |
years after island was partitioned and governments established in | :04:16. | :04:19. | |
Belfast and Dublin. His father, James, a Baptist minister in Armagh | :04:20. | :04:25. | |
City, had been a member of Edward Carson's Ulster Volunteer Force is | :04:26. | :04:30. | |
opposed to independence for Ireland. The political environment in the | :04:31. | :04:35. | |
early 1920s was still volatile, as Ian Paisley's father was to find | :04:36. | :04:42. | |
out. He was very jolly. Very happy man. And he had a little Austin 6 | :04:43. | :04:52. | |
car, which was quite a car. And he went around the country, visiting | :04:53. | :05:01. | |
and preaching. After my birth, he was out visiting one night, and he | :05:02. | :05:07. | |
ran into 50 men, all armed on the roadside. And they pulled him out of | :05:08. | :05:14. | |
this thing and put him against the wall and they were going to shoot | :05:15. | :05:18. | |
him. They were gunman who wanted a united Ireland, and they thought | :05:19. | :05:25. | |
that my father was a danger to that. What they have known him? Yes, my | :05:26. | :05:31. | |
father was very well-known. And then a man came in and he shouted and he | :05:32. | :05:36. | |
said, "how do you touch this man? His wife has just had their second | :05:37. | :05:41. | |
child and it would be very unlucky to us if we did this." So, they had | :05:42. | :05:50. | |
a conference and they decided to let him go if you would never mention | :05:51. | :05:54. | |
what he had seen. So the reason he got away was me because I had been | :05:55. | :05:59. | |
born. So, you are the little miracle that arrived and saved his life? | :06:00. | :06:05. | |
That's right, that's right, amazing! At the age of two, Ian Paisley's | :06:06. | :06:09. | |
family moved from Armagh to Ballymena where his father was | :06:10. | :06:12. | |
appointed minister to kill Street Baptist Church. -- Hill Street | :06:13. | :06:19. | |
Baptist Church. It was his Scottish born mother Isabella who was | :06:20. | :06:25. | |
responsible for his evangelical conversion. I was converted at a | :06:26. | :06:29. | |
meeting that my mother was conducting among children. She was | :06:30. | :06:34. | |
speaking on the good Shepherd giving his good life for the sheep. And I | :06:35. | :06:39. | |
was touched greatly at that time, although I was only six years of | :06:40. | :06:43. | |
age. At the end of the meeting, I said to my mother, "I would like to | :06:44. | :06:49. | |
be -- I would not like to be a lost sheep, I'd rather be a saved lamb. " | :06:50. | :06:55. | |
, she said, " let's go to the church." So we went down, and it was | :06:56. | :06:59. | |
at that seat that my mother got to meet Neal and appointed me to | :07:00. | :07:06. | |
Christ. Did you go on holidays? Which always went on holidays. Where | :07:07. | :07:14. | |
did you go? The place we went to was Killowen, outside Warrenpoint. Did | :07:15. | :07:21. | |
you ever journey southwards? Did you ever go down to Carlingford? Oh, | :07:22. | :07:26. | |
yes, I would have been to Carlingford. Did you naturally come | :07:27. | :07:30. | |
into contact with the local Catholics there? I did, though aye. | :07:31. | :07:36. | |
Did you mingle, easily? Yes, we prayed together, -- we played | :07:37. | :07:46. | |
together. On the 12th of July, we went to Warrenpoint, and then we all | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
went in August day to them to their place. So, did you march with the | :07:51. | :08:01. | |
Hibernian is for the craic? No, they never let me in! After leaving the | :08:02. | :08:08. | |
school at 16, Ian Paisley went to work on the farm family friend, | :08:09. | :08:13. | |
George Watson in County Tyrone. I learned to plough, I learned to sew. | :08:14. | :08:24. | |
The Bible entered my mind very much when I was there and I remember one | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
day out in the field I stopped the powering. I got down on my knees and | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
I told the Lord that I was willing to go where he wanted me to go, to | :08:34. | :08:39. | |
say what he wanted me to say. And that to be a preacher of the gospel. | :08:40. | :08:44. | |
And I then said to the man I was living with, I said, " next Sunday, | :08:45. | :08:50. | |
I want to say a word at the church. " Which I did. I thought I could | :08:51. | :08:58. | |
give a long sermon. It lasted for three minutes! So, it was a | :08:59. | :09:06. | |
disaster. It was a humbling, a very humbling thing for me. Ian Paisley | :09:07. | :09:15. | |
then moved to a school events -- to a school of evangelism in Wales to | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
study theology. He quickly started to make a name for himself as a | :09:21. | :09:24. | |
preacher before returning to Belfast to complete his studies. His first | :09:25. | :09:31. | |
ministry was at Ravenhill Evangelical Mission Church in east | :09:32. | :09:36. | |
Belfast. There he started organising revival missions and was soon | :09:37. | :09:38. | |
attracting large crowds wherever he went. | :09:39. | :09:46. | |
How did you end up being invited to preach in Crossgar? While, the | :09:47. | :09:54. | |
committee of the Crossgar Mission Hall went to Ballymena during the | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
great meeting... Missions I had there. And they were absolutely | :10:00. | :10:07. | |
thrilled. And they then met me and said, "could you not come and do the | :10:08. | :10:13. | |
same in Crossgar? " though this invitation came from a small Mission | :10:14. | :10:18. | |
Hall, it was to have far reaching consequences for the local | :10:19. | :10:23. | |
Presbyterian Church. The Mission Hall was too small. So they decided | :10:24. | :10:28. | |
to ask the church for the use of the church hall. But then the kirk | :10:29. | :10:34. | |
session of the church, which is the ruling body, decided they were going | :10:35. | :10:39. | |
to have this mission and then, suddenly, the presbytery stepped in | :10:40. | :10:42. | |
above their heads and closed the door of the church. I mean, it was | :10:43. | :10:48. | |
something that should not have been done. This, in turn, led to a split | :10:49. | :10:57. | |
from which emerged Ian Paisley's Free Presbyterian Church. | :10:58. | :11:02. | |
Congregations sprang up across Northern Ireland throughout the | :11:03. | :11:08. | |
1950s. These new churches were started by people attracted to Ian | :11:09. | :11:15. | |
Paisley's fundamentalist message. At a great cost, over 400 years ago, | :11:16. | :11:21. | |
the martyrs and reformers and confesses broke the shackles of | :11:22. | :11:26. | |
popish superstition and witchcraft and recovered the gospel in what is | :11:27. | :11:33. | |
known in history as the great Reformation. I am a Reformation | :11:34. | :11:39. | |
Protestant. Nobody escaped Yorath. Nobody. In 1959, you spoke of the | :11:40. | :11:45. | |
Queen Mother and Princess Margaret in the following words when they had | :11:46. | :11:50. | |
an audience with the Pope. You accuse them of committing spiritual | :11:51. | :11:53. | |
fornication and adultery with the Antichrist. Wasn't that | :11:54. | :11:59. | |
extraordinary? Oh, no, that was the language of | :12:00. | :12:02. | |
Luther, that was the language of Calvin, that was the language of | :12:03. | :12:06. | |
Protestantism. And I have no apology to make for my, for being a | :12:07. | :12:08. | |
Protestant. Ian Paisley's attacks on the | :12:09. | :12:16. | |
Catholic Church were becoming ever more confrontational. | :12:17. | :12:31. | |
Denounced interim as adults Paisley, he was the focal point of the | :12:32. | :12:35. | |
demonstration. In 1962 he even took his protest | :12:36. | :12:43. | |
against Catholicism to the Vatican. I mean, they were trying to sell the | :12:44. | :12:46. | |
thing that the Reformation was a mistake, that there's no Reformation | :12:47. | :12:49. | |
Protestants now, there's no men that believe the Bible, the Bible, only | :12:50. | :12:52. | |
the religion of Protestants, and they were very active and the time | :12:53. | :13:03. | |
had come for a stand to be taken. Come 1963, Pope John XXIII dies. | :13:04. | :13:11. | |
Yes. You are reported as having said, | :13:12. | :13:15. | |
"The Rom?ish man of sin is now in hell." | :13:16. | :13:17. | |
Uh?huh. How could you stand over that | :13:18. | :13:19. | |
remark? Well, I don't know whether I said | :13:20. | :13:21. | |
that or not. Do you think I'm making that up? | :13:22. | :13:27. | |
No, no, I think that people make up things and put them into my mouth | :13:28. | :13:29. | |
and say them. Would that be your sentiment though, | :13:30. | :13:33. | |
would that be the way you would think at that point in time about | :13:34. | :13:37. | |
the death of the Pope, "the Rome-ish man of sin is in hell". Is that how | :13:38. | :13:41. | |
you would have thought at that stage? | :13:42. | :13:43. | |
No, I think that anybody who is not saved by the grace of God will be | :13:44. | :13:52. | |
lost in hell forever. The spirit of Edward Carson, the | :13:53. | :13:55. | |
father figure of unionism, ran in the veins of Ian Paisley in his | :13:56. | :13:58. | |
opposition to Dublin's involvement in the affairs of Northern Ireland. | :13:59. | :14:06. | |
As the Ulster and the loyalists shall walk... | :14:07. | :14:09. | |
More and more he was identifying with individuals in the tradition of | :14:10. | :14:14. | |
Carson. Foremost among these was a former policeman. District Inspector | :14:15. | :14:26. | |
John William Nixon. Why was DI Nixon, a former police officer, a | :14:27. | :14:29. | |
dissident Unionist in many ways? Yes. An MP. Why was Nixon so | :14:30. | :14:32. | |
important in your life? Well, he was important in my life | :14:33. | :14:36. | |
because he was the impersonation of the battle and what it really was | :14:37. | :14:58. | |
about in Northern Ireland. And of course that was the... A stand taken | :14:59. | :15:02. | |
against those that would take away our flag, would take away our | :15:03. | :15:05. | |
position in the Union. But how prudent was it for you as an | :15:06. | :15:08. | |
emerging young politician, clergyman, to be identified with a | :15:09. | :15:11. | |
man against whom the allegations had been made that he had been involved | :15:12. | :15:15. | |
in murder? And secondly, was it wise for somebody like you to be | :15:16. | :15:18. | |
identified with him? Well, I liked the man that was | :15:19. | :15:21. | |
prepared to stand up for what he believed in and I... Everything is | :15:22. | :15:27. | |
said, was said about you in those days if you interfered with the | :15:28. | :15:30. | |
Official Unionist people they felt that they would just snub you out, | :15:31. | :15:34. | |
but some people were not going to be snubbed out. | :15:35. | :15:47. | |
From now on Ian Paisley was regularly involved in one street | :15:48. | :15:51. | |
protest or another against any expression of Irish nationalism. The | :15:52. | :16:00. | |
tricolour was regularly flown in places like west Belfast. Ian | :16:01. | :16:05. | |
Paisley protested against the presence of a green white and gold | :16:06. | :16:09. | |
flag in the window of the Divis Street headquarters of the | :16:10. | :16:12. | |
Republican Party and demanded that it be taken down. Rioting broke out | :16:13. | :16:20. | |
and lasted for two nights when the Government capitulated and ordered | :16:21. | :16:27. | |
the police to remove the flag. You knew the geography of the city | :16:28. | :16:30. | |
better than anybody else? Yes. | :16:31. | :16:33. | |
You walked the streets, you knew the people. Was it prudent of you to go | :16:34. | :16:37. | |
into Divis Street in 1964 to remove a flag, from the Republican office | :16:38. | :16:43. | |
there. Surely that was a pretty provocative thing to do? | :16:44. | :16:49. | |
No, well I didn't remove anything. But you led the protest which urged | :16:50. | :16:53. | |
that the flag be removed. Yes, yes. | :16:54. | :16:55. | |
You can't exonerate yourself from it? | :16:56. | :16:58. | |
Well, that was my attitude and I believe I was right in what I did. | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
Despite the fact that you triggered a riot two nights in a row and that | :17:04. | :17:07. | |
people got injured, was that prudent... | :17:08. | :17:11. | |
I never. The riot was rioting, the people who rioted are the people | :17:12. | :17:18. | |
will have to pay for that, not me. Ian Paisley's line of attack was now | :17:19. | :17:21. | |
two-fold: the defense of Protestantism and bolting the door | :17:22. | :17:22. | |
on Dublin. An invitation to Stormont in 1967 by | :17:23. | :17:29. | |
Northern Ireland's Prime Minister Terence O'Neill to his Irish | :17:30. | :17:32. | |
counterpart, Taoiseach Jack Lynch, provided another opportunity for Ian | :17:33. | :17:33. | |
Paisley to protest. Was it not the convention of the | :17:34. | :17:51. | |
time that neighbour, neighbourly prime ministers would be invited | :17:52. | :17:53. | |
from country to country? No, no. | :17:54. | :17:56. | |
Was that not... Was that not normal? There was a time, know perfectly | :17:57. | :18:00. | |
well, there was a time that no Unionist would have been invited to | :18:01. | :18:03. | |
Dublin and no "Shinners" or others would have been invited from Dublin | :18:04. | :18:05. | |
to here. In opposing what Ian Paisley saw as | :18:06. | :18:16. | |
the Protestant churches embrace of ecumenism, the mainstream | :18:17. | :18:18. | |
Presbyterian's annual general Assembly at Church House became a | :18:19. | :18:20. | |
regular target. In 1966 Ian Paisley led a march to | :18:21. | :18:29. | |
the Assembly through the predominantly nationalist area of | :18:30. | :18:32. | |
Cromac Street with almost predictable consequences. | :18:33. | :18:38. | |
Why, Mr Paisley, did you feel compelled to protest against the | :18:39. | :18:43. | |
meeting of the General Assembly in 1966? | :18:44. | :18:47. | |
Because I always had a protest. Well, I always had a protest... | :18:48. | :18:52. | |
Why? Because that was part of our | :18:53. | :18:55. | |
exposure of what was happening in the Assembly. | :18:56. | :18:59. | |
What was worrying you about their behaviour at that point in time | :19:00. | :19:01. | |
though? Well, there was certainly a very | :19:02. | :19:04. | |
strong ecumenical movement abroad in the Church in those days. | :19:05. | :19:12. | |
But did you not know that there was always the potential, the danger for | :19:13. | :19:14. | |
trouble... No, I never... | :19:15. | :19:18. | |
When you engaged in these street protests? | :19:19. | :19:21. | |
If you're trying to justify today what was done at Cromac Street, you | :19:22. | :19:25. | |
need to go and talk to the people who were responsible for that, not | :19:26. | :19:27. | |
to me. Also in 1966 Ian Paisley launched | :19:28. | :19:33. | |
his own newspaper, the Protestant Telegraph, to spread his political | :19:34. | :19:43. | |
and religious message. His firebrand oratory in attacking the Catholic | :19:44. | :19:52. | |
Church was uncompromising. We are going to keep the | :19:53. | :19:57. | |
thoroughfares open for our Protestant heritage. | :19:58. | :20:02. | |
Mr Paisley, you are reported after a rally in 1968 as saying the | :20:03. | :20:04. | |
following: "Catholic homes caught fire because they were loaded with | :20:05. | :20:07. | |
petrol bombs. Catholic churches were attacked and burned because there | :20:08. | :20:10. | |
were arsenals and priests handed out sub-machine guns to parishioners." | :20:11. | :20:15. | |
Uh?huh. Did you say that? Did you believe that? | :20:16. | :20:20. | |
I don't know. I have no memory of saying that, but it was true that | :20:21. | :20:24. | |
there were guns in the churches, and it was true that there was men in | :20:25. | :20:28. | |
the Roman Catholic churches who used the churches as a safe place to | :20:29. | :20:33. | |
hide. But were you directly implicating | :20:34. | :20:35. | |
priests in concealing guns in churches and giving cover to IRA men | :20:36. | :20:40. | |
in churches? Well, I said what I said. I have | :20:41. | :20:46. | |
nothing to add to it. You also said that the massive | :20:47. | :20:48. | |
discrimination in employment and allocation of public housing for | :20:49. | :20:51. | |
Catholics existed because 'they breed like rabbits and multiply like | :20:52. | :20:54. | |
vermin'; would you stand over that today? | :20:55. | :20:59. | |
Well, I have no record of that on what I said. | :21:00. | :21:03. | |
Do you think you might have said it? No, I don't think I would have said | :21:04. | :21:06. | |
it. I don't. You were reported as having said it? | :21:07. | :21:10. | |
Aye, well, I mean they would have reported anything. | :21:11. | :21:12. | |
Addressing a crowd in Loughgall in County Armagh... | :21:13. | :21:13. | |
Yes. You are reported as having said the | :21:14. | :21:17. | |
following, "I am anti?Roman Catholic but God being my judge I love the | :21:18. | :21:21. | |
poor dupes who are ground down under that system." | :21:22. | :21:31. | |
Yes, so I do. I love them and I want to bring them to a place of freedom | :21:32. | :21:36. | |
in the Gospel, the same way as I love the Protestants. | :21:37. | :21:38. | |
And you're not walking away from that statement? | :21:39. | :21:43. | |
Well, if I said it I would, I have no apology to make for saying it, | :21:44. | :21:47. | |
but I don't know where you get these quotes from, some of them are... | :21:48. | :21:51. | |
You are well reported, sir. Well reported, aye, and over | :21:52. | :21:53. | |
reported. "The Provisional IRA is the military | :21:54. | :21:57. | |
wing of the Roman Catholic Church", you said at one stage? | :21:58. | :21:59. | |
Yes. Did you genuinely believe that? | :22:00. | :22:04. | |
Well, it was, it's true. It stands true in history, they have been the | :22:05. | :22:08. | |
people at the Church of Rome used to forward their interests, yes. | :22:09. | :22:14. | |
I want to give you another little colourful quote. | :22:15. | :22:16. | |
Yes, yes. "The dog will return to its vomit, | :22:17. | :22:20. | |
the washed sow will return to its wallowing in the mire, but by God's | :22:21. | :22:24. | |
grace we will never return to Popery again. No Pope here". 1982. | :22:25. | :22:31. | |
That's right. Yes, that's... Wasn't that very colourful? | :22:32. | :22:35. | |
Yes, very colourful, very right. You do, you don't expect me to go to | :22:36. | :22:40. | |
Rome, do you? Are you trying to convert me? | :22:41. | :22:45. | |
In the mid 1960s a student led protest began in Northern Ireland | :22:46. | :22:52. | |
with Queen's University as its hub. This campaign was influenced by the | :22:53. | :22:55. | |
civil rights movement in America, which was demanding equal rights for | :22:56. | :23:01. | |
black people. Here the demands were for equal voting rights for | :23:02. | :23:04. | |
Catholics, equal job opportunities and the fair allocation of housing. | :23:05. | :23:11. | |
This civil rights movement was Ian Paisley's next target. A | :23:12. | :23:16. | |
counter-demonstration organized by Ian Paisley against a civil rights | :23:17. | :23:19. | |
march, in Armagh City in November 1968 resulted in serious rioting. | :23:20. | :23:33. | |
Everything has been done by the police to hinder the rightful | :23:34. | :23:35. | |
Assembly of Protestants. Less than two weeks later, amidst a | :23:36. | :23:48. | |
worsening situation, the modernising Prime Minister Terence O' Neill went | :23:49. | :23:51. | |
on television and pledged change and reform but did not concede one man | :23:52. | :23:55. | |
one vote, a fundamental demand for of the civil rights movement. | :23:56. | :24:08. | |
Ulster stands at the crossroads. I believe you will know me well enough | :24:09. | :24:14. | |
now to appreciate that I am not a man given to extravagant language | :24:15. | :24:21. | |
but bully boy tactics we saw in Armagh are no answer to these grave | :24:22. | :24:27. | |
problems. What they incur for as the contempt of Britain and the world. | :24:28. | :24:30. | |
To this day Unionist politicians rarely admit to discrimination | :24:31. | :24:33. | |
against Catholics or that the regime of the time rigged and gerrymandered | :24:34. | :24:36. | |
electoral boundaries to its advantage. | :24:37. | :24:44. | |
Places like Derry and Fermanagh, where there were Nationalist | :24:45. | :24:46. | |
majorities, the Council was still controlled by Unionists numerically. | :24:47. | :24:49. | |
Was that fair? No, it wasn't fair. A fair | :24:50. | :24:56. | |
Government is that every man has the same power to vote for what he | :24:57. | :25:03. | |
wants. In Dungannon in 1963 there were over | :25:04. | :25:07. | |
300 families on the waiting list for a house and no Catholic had been | :25:08. | :25:11. | |
allocated a permanent house for 34 years. How acceptable was that? | :25:12. | :25:14. | |
That wasn't acceptable at all, so it wasn't. | :25:15. | :25:18. | |
Was that British justice? No, it wasn't justice at all. Then | :25:19. | :25:24. | |
those that put their hands to that were, have to carry some of the | :25:25. | :25:28. | |
blunt and blame for what has happened in our country. | :25:29. | :25:33. | |
What do you mean by that? Well, simply what I mean. I mean | :25:34. | :25:39. | |
that if you vote down democracy you're responsible for bringing in | :25:40. | :25:43. | |
anarchy and they brought in anarchy and they set family against family | :25:44. | :25:44. | |
and friend against friend. In Derry's Guild Hall in 1967 | :25:45. | :26:00. | |
Unionists held 60% of the seats. Yet Unionism had only 32% of the | :26:01. | :26:02. | |
vote. Yes. | :26:03. | :26:05. | |
Did you think that was fair? No. There should be, but that's the | :26:06. | :26:10. | |
way it was. The whole system was wrong, it wasn't one man, one vote. | :26:11. | :26:16. | |
I mean, that's no way to run any country, there should be absolute | :26:17. | :26:19. | |
freedom and there should be absolute liberty. | :26:20. | :26:25. | |
What might be baffling and puzzling, Mr Paisley, to many people listening | :26:26. | :26:29. | |
to what you have just said, is why you were so determined to oppose the | :26:30. | :26:33. | |
demand for one man, one vote as advocated by people like John Hume | :26:34. | :26:36. | |
and Austin Currie at that point in time? | :26:37. | :26:41. | |
Because the Civil Rights Movement was a movement that actually was a | :26:42. | :26:46. | |
united Ireland movement. How can you say that? | :26:47. | :26:50. | |
Well, that's what they were doing. They were associating themselves | :26:51. | :26:53. | |
with a battle that the ordinary decent, law-abiding Protestant could | :26:54. | :26:59. | |
not associate themselves with. How can you say that? Weren't John | :27:00. | :27:04. | |
Hume and Austin Currie, and people like them, simply asking for British | :27:05. | :27:07. | |
civil rights, the rights to vote? Yes. | :27:08. | :27:10. | |
What was wrong with that? Those were British rights. How can you say that | :27:11. | :27:14. | |
they were associating with the united Ireland or the united | :27:15. | :27:16. | |
Irelanders if they were simply asking for British civil rights, the | :27:17. | :27:19. | |
right to vote? Because the Civil Rights Movement | :27:20. | :27:22. | |
was tied up with threats and was tied up with other things, it wasn't | :27:23. | :27:25. | |
only in that. Did you see it as a front for a | :27:26. | :27:29. | |
united Ireland then? Yes, it was part of the, part of the | :27:30. | :27:33. | |
overall cauldron that was burning and was being heated by various sort | :27:34. | :27:36. | |
of sections of the community to get their own way. The frequency of | :27:37. | :27:48. | |
civil rights marchers in various towns and cities throughout Northern | :27:49. | :27:54. | |
Ireland in pursuit of reform culminated in the battle of the | :27:55. | :27:58. | |
Bogside in Derry City in August 1969. Faced with a beleaguered Royal | :27:59. | :28:04. | |
Ulster Constabulary, the British government sent troops onto the | :28:05. | :28:08. | |
streets for only the second time since the inception of the state. | :28:09. | :28:19. | |
Ian Paisley was relentless in his verbal attacks on Terence O'Neill, | :28:20. | :28:26. | |
portraying him as feeble. His support was growing in a restless | :28:27. | :28:33. | |
unionist community. His popularity was further enhanced in the wake of | :28:34. | :28:37. | |
two spells in jail arising from his street agitation. In 1969, Terence | :28:38. | :28:46. | |
O'Neill resigned as Prime Minister. The following year, Ian Paisley | :28:47. | :28:50. | |
replaced him as the Stormont MP for Bannside and, months later, he won | :28:51. | :28:54. | |
the Westminster seat for North Antrim. Ian Richard Kyle Paisley, | :28:55. | :29:05. | |
7981. In 1971, Ian Paisley formed his own political party, the | :29:06. | :29:08. | |
Democratic Unionist Party, along with Desmond Boal, a barrister and | :29:09. | :29:12. | |
Unionist MP, who had been one of Terence O'Neill's harshest critics. | :29:13. | :29:17. | |
This was the start of a very long friendship. These were turbulent | :29:18. | :29:24. | |
days in Northern Ireland. Bloody Sunday was a watershed. What was | :29:25. | :29:31. | |
your reaction when you heard about 13 people having been shot dead on | :29:32. | :29:36. | |
the streets of Derry on 30 of January 1972? Oh, I was very angry | :29:37. | :29:44. | |
that that is what it had come to. I felt it was a very dangerous thing. | :29:45. | :29:47. | |
And then an attempt to cover it for what it was not. I mean, the enquiry | :29:48. | :29:59. | |
afterwards proved that some of these people, they had neither weapons nor | :30:00. | :30:04. | |
were they using weapons, they were just making a protest within the | :30:05. | :30:10. | |
law. Were you a bit embarrassed, though, when David Cameron | :30:11. | :30:14. | |
ultimately 35 years later apologised and said in Parliament that the | :30:15. | :30:17. | |
killings were unjustified and wrong? I wasn't embarrassed. I was | :30:18. | :30:23. | |
glad to hear him for the first time as a British leader telling the | :30:24. | :30:28. | |
truth about it. Saying what really did happen. Worried by the | :30:29. | :30:37. | |
escalating violence and exasperated by the pace of political reform, | :30:38. | :30:41. | |
London suspended the Northern Ireland government and took control | :30:42. | :30:44. | |
of security, introducing direct rule for the first time. A conference of | :30:45. | :30:52. | |
the British and Irish governments and local parties, but not the DUP, | :30:53. | :30:57. | |
met at Sunningdale in England to work out how political power could | :30:58. | :31:03. | |
be restored. Agreement was reached to set up a power-sharing executive | :31:04. | :31:07. | |
giving nationalists cabinet positions for the first time. This | :31:08. | :31:13. | |
accord also aimed at giving the Irish government and ongoing input | :31:14. | :31:17. | |
in the affairs of Northern Ireland. The creation of this new | :31:18. | :31:23. | |
administration in 1974, headed by the Ulster Unionist Party leader | :31:24. | :31:25. | |
Brian Faulkner, triggered another crisis. What was so wrong with the | :31:26. | :31:37. | |
idea of the SDLP and the Alliance Party, and members and | :31:38. | :31:40. | |
representatives of the Catholic nationalist community being in | :31:41. | :31:44. | |
government, being part of an administration, really Northern | :31:45. | :31:48. | |
Ireland? Well, the people of Northern Ireland made that choice, | :31:49. | :31:53. | |
that would be fine with me, but they didn't make that choice. This was | :31:54. | :31:58. | |
something being forced on us. What do you say to your critics and the | :31:59. | :32:02. | |
critics of that time who would argue that the opposition to a Council of | :32:03. | :32:07. | |
Ireland, to any involvement of Dublin in the affairs of Northern | :32:08. | :32:11. | |
Ireland, was a smoke screen to stop Catholics having any power in the | :32:12. | :32:16. | |
government of Northern Ireland? I don't accept that at all in the | :32:17. | :32:22. | |
sense that you are saying they are saying it. They wanted to destroy | :32:23. | :32:25. | |
Northern Ireland and the people in Westminster were in it up over their | :32:26. | :32:33. | |
heads. They wanted rid of us, too, so they did. | :32:34. | :32:41. | |
Ian Paisley's tone was growing increasingly belligerent. | :32:42. | :32:53. | |
A loose coalition of dissident Unionist politicians, Protestant | :32:54. | :32:58. | |
workers and loyalist paramilitary 's, including the militant Ulster | :32:59. | :33:05. | |
Defence Association, came together, intent on destroying the new | :33:06. | :33:08. | |
power-sharing administration. Their action became known as the Ulster | :33:09. | :33:14. | |
Workers' Council Strike. Ian Paisley played a central role. | :33:15. | :33:22. | |
How did you feel, though, about sitting down with Andy teary, the | :33:23. | :33:28. | |
leader of the Ulster Defence Association, given that his people | :33:29. | :33:35. | |
were on the streets, involved in wholesale intimidation, forcing | :33:36. | :33:38. | |
people to close down their businesses, stopping people from | :33:39. | :33:41. | |
going to work, and going about their daily duties as a citizen, as a | :33:42. | :33:48. | |
Democrat? I was sitting at a table, not to talk to people like that. And | :33:49. | :33:56. | |
the situation was just simply this - we had to get this thing finished | :33:57. | :34:03. | |
with, and I certainly believed that there was a merit... There was a | :34:04. | :34:14. | |
merit in having a Council strike. And did you not feel this was a | :34:15. | :34:18. | |
violation of make a violation of democracy from your perspective if | :34:19. | :34:22. | |
people were taking the law into their own hands, or you essentially | :34:23. | :34:26. | |
challenging the very essence of rule of law? I was not. I use saying that | :34:27. | :34:32. | |
the people who asked on the street, call blocking roads, who were | :34:33. | :34:35. | |
seizing cars, are you saying they were OK? You're putting out a broad | :34:36. | :34:41. | |
thing and just think everybody that took part in this was a lawless | :34:42. | :34:48. | |
person, and were prepared to break the law. That is not so. And they | :34:49. | :34:54. | |
didn't break the law. The country went on, the country went on. It's | :34:55. | :34:59. | |
businesses went on. It's tomography went on. -- its democracy went on. | :35:00. | :35:09. | |
But it was not business as usual. 60% of businesses ended up paralysed | :35:10. | :35:13. | |
with the power station workers bringing life close to a standstill. | :35:14. | :35:21. | |
Worse was to follow. Loyalist Parliamentary is now switched their | :35:22. | :35:25. | |
focus to the Republic of Ireland, killing 33 people into Mac attacks. | :35:26. | :35:35. | |
-- in two attacks. On May 17, 1974, bombs went off in Dublin and | :35:36. | :35:42. | |
Monaghan. Just how much of a shock was that to your system? Well, I was | :35:43. | :35:50. | |
shocked. Very much shocked that there was anyone going to be heard | :35:51. | :35:58. | |
in that way. But, I mean, who brought that on themselves was the | :35:59. | :36:07. | |
people that... That own political leaders and they had endorsed in | :36:08. | :36:12. | |
what their attitude to Northern Ireland. And, at that time, the | :36:13. | :36:17. | |
attitude of the southern government in Northern Ireland was ridiculous, | :36:18. | :36:24. | |
so it was. Are you saying the bombing of Dublin and Monaghan was | :36:25. | :36:28. | |
justified because of the political action of the Irish government | :36:29. | :36:31. | |
supporting a Council of Ireland? I don't believe in killing and never | :36:32. | :36:36. | |
have. That me ask you, when those bombings took place in Dublin, | :36:37. | :36:40. | |
blamed on the Ulster Volunteer Force, did you think about walking | :36:41. | :36:45. | |
away from the strike? I had nothing to do with that. I had nothing to do | :36:46. | :36:52. | |
with that and I'd announced the people who had done it. What more | :36:53. | :36:58. | |
could I do? Surely you connected those bombs that exploded in Dublin | :36:59. | :37:01. | |
with what was going on in the streets of Northern Ireland? Did you | :37:02. | :37:06. | |
consider walking away from the strike in the interest of maybe | :37:07. | :37:15. | |
stopping other killings? I took my stand. I denounced what was wrong. I | :37:16. | :37:22. | |
could not say to the people, "just to sit down and let them put a rope | :37:23. | :37:28. | |
around your neck." 11 days later, the Faulkner led | :37:29. | :37:33. | |
power-sharing executive collapsed. Ian Paisley and the Ulster Workers' | :37:34. | :37:37. | |
Council had achieved their goal. If you are not prepared to govern | :37:38. | :37:42. | |
Northern Ireland, like any other part of the United Kingdom, then let | :37:43. | :37:49. | |
the Ulster people do their job for themselves! | :37:50. | :37:57. | |
The IRA, meanwhile, stepped up its campaign at home and in Britain. | :37:58. | :38:02. | |
With direct rule restored, Northern Ireland lurched from crisis to | :38:03. | :38:04. | |
crisis and from atrocity to atrocity, with the rival | :38:05. | :38:08. | |
paramilitary organisations bombing and shooting. In London, Ian Paisley | :38:09. | :38:15. | |
was increasingly seen as part of the problem. There are those who would | :38:16. | :38:21. | |
have charged if you kept stirring the pot. Jim Callaghan accused you | :38:22. | :38:25. | |
of using the language of forecast in a biblical mould. Edward Heath | :38:26. | :38:31. | |
called you a demagogue and a wrecker. Roy Mason remembered you a | :38:32. | :38:34. | |
demagogue and a wrecker. Roy Mason remembered US and overshoot bully | :38:35. | :38:37. | |
and a poisonous beget. What do you say to those allegations? I just | :38:38. | :38:44. | |
laughed at them. They did a lot for Northern Ireland, so they did, they | :38:45. | :38:48. | |
did a lot for Northern Ireland. And when I read that stuff now, and you | :38:49. | :38:53. | |
read it to me, I really have a chuckle because I certainly didn't | :38:54. | :39:03. | |
think I was doing so well. Ian Paisley led a second strike in 1977 | :39:04. | :39:08. | |
demanding tougher action against the IRA and a return to Unionist | :39:09. | :39:13. | |
majority rule at Stormont. Use of the great decisions were | :39:14. | :39:17. | |
taken by elected leaders but to, yet, there were hundreds of UDA men | :39:18. | :39:22. | |
on the street who weren't elected by anyone. They were affiliated with | :39:23. | :39:26. | |
people who are killing, with people who were lying in jail convicted of | :39:27. | :39:32. | |
murder. Where did that sit with you as a Democrat? Or you | :39:33. | :39:35. | |
uncomfortable? Did it ever occur to you that you wished you haven't been | :39:36. | :39:40. | |
affiliated with those people? The people we were working with, the | :39:41. | :39:45. | |
majority of them were men with clean hands and right spirits. And, of | :39:46. | :39:51. | |
course, in any situation like this, you would have a degree of | :39:52. | :39:58. | |
difficulty. And we had our difficulties but I think that we | :39:59. | :40:02. | |
came out of them well. Is that acceptable? Is it good enough? It's | :40:03. | :40:08. | |
all right for you to sit there and me to sit here in comfort at this | :40:09. | :40:12. | |
time and said that these were serious days. We have the Kingsmill | :40:13. | :40:22. | |
massacre. We have all of these things coming in. Surely, the time | :40:23. | :40:28. | |
had come when people had to take the risk of their own lives. So, all I | :40:29. | :40:35. | |
am saying, I take my hat off to the people of Northern Ireland who | :40:36. | :40:39. | |
stood, and stood well, in a very ethical situation. -- in a very | :40:40. | :40:51. | |
difficult time. This time, the strike did not attract support. | :40:52. | :40:55. | |
Despite a pledge to quit public life if it failed, the DUP leader | :40:56. | :41:02. | |
continued his agitation. The arrival of a new Conservative government in | :41:03. | :41:08. | |
May 1979, headed by Margaret Thatcher and encouraged Unionists to | :41:09. | :41:14. | |
expect a tough IRA stance. Where there is discord, may we bring | :41:15. | :41:20. | |
harmony. If there is -- may where there is doubt, may we bring faith. | :41:21. | :41:25. | |
Where there is despair, may we bring hope. Only two months earlier, a | :41:26. | :41:32. | |
close adviser and hardline Northern Ireland's spokesman Airey Neave had | :41:33. | :41:35. | |
been murdered by Republicans. Had you believe she would be a good | :41:36. | :41:40. | |
friend to Northern Ireland? Yes, I thought she would be a good friend | :41:41. | :41:44. | |
to Northern Ireland but I was sadly disappointed. | :41:45. | :41:48. | |
On a single day in the first months of misses that Chuck's premiership, | :41:49. | :41:53. | |
the IRA killed the Queen's Club is in old Mountbatten and some members | :41:54. | :41:57. | |
of his family at Michael Moore in the Republic and 18 soldiers at | :41:58. | :42:00. | |
narrow water near Warrenpoint, County Down. But this mounting | :42:01. | :42:11. | |
violence failed to call Anglo-Irish relations. In 1980, the Prime | :42:12. | :42:15. | |
Minister flew into Dublin to be embraced by the controversial | :42:16. | :42:20. | |
T-shirt Charles J Haughey. Out of that historic meeting urged an | :42:21. | :42:23. | |
agreement to conduct joint studies on areas of common interest. This | :42:24. | :42:29. | |
became known as the totality of relationships, a development which | :42:30. | :42:35. | |
was anathema to Ian Paisley. How much of a betrayal did you feel that | :42:36. | :42:39. | |
was by Mrs Thatcher when she went to Dublin, embraced Charles J Haughey | :42:40. | :42:41. | |
and engaged in this arrangement, this agreement? | :42:42. | :42:50. | |
I think that it really stirred people that here we have the Prime | :42:51. | :42:54. | |
Minister going in and having this sort of "love-in" with the South. I | :42:55. | :43:02. | |
don't think that she should have been negotiating with Dublin at all | :43:03. | :43:06. | |
on the future of this part of the United Kingdom. | :43:07. | :43:09. | |
This hardened the DUP leader's resolve. He embarked on a series of | :43:10. | :43:15. | |
actions in the style of his role model Edward Carson, the Unionist | :43:16. | :43:18. | |
leader who had led the resistance to Irish Independence at the start of | :43:19. | :43:23. | |
the 20th century. The first of these was a rally of 500 men, the | :43:24. | :43:26. | |
so-called Paisley's Army, at night on a county Antrim hillside. They | :43:27. | :43:32. | |
didn't carry guns but waved firearm certificates to demonstrate their | :43:33. | :43:42. | |
access to weapons. This is only a small token of many | :43:43. | :43:47. | |
thousands of men who have pledged to me and I am pledged to them to stand | :43:48. | :43:54. | |
together at this time of grave trouble in Northern Ireland. | :43:55. | :44:01. | |
What message were you hoping to send out to the outer world given the | :44:02. | :44:05. | |
presence of those men brandishing those gun licences? | :44:06. | :44:10. | |
In that Ulster will fight and Ulster will be right and there will be no | :44:11. | :44:19. | |
surrender. Who came up with that idea to form | :44:20. | :44:23. | |
'Paisley's Army' on the side of that mountain? Whose idea was that? | :44:24. | :44:29. | |
It was my idea. It was a warning to Mrs Thatcher and to the powers that | :44:30. | :44:32. | |
be in Westminster and it was a warning also to the Nationalist | :44:33. | :44:35. | |
people of Northern Ireland and the whole of Ireland that there were | :44:36. | :44:39. | |
people who would not be run and bargained over and their future | :44:40. | :44:42. | |
bargained over by Mrs Thatcher or anyone else. | :44:43. | :44:56. | |
Throughout 1981 Northern Ireland woke up to reports of huge Carson | :44:57. | :45:00. | |
Trail Rallies and quasi-paramilitary gatherings of the self-styled Third | :45:01. | :45:09. | |
Force. Ian Paisley was mobilising to thwart the IRA. | :45:10. | :45:16. | |
As this was happening Republicans in the Maze jail embarked on a series | :45:17. | :45:21. | |
of hunger strikes, demanding to be treated as political prisoners. The | :45:22. | :45:29. | |
death of Bobby Sands, followed by nine others, led to an upsurge in | :45:30. | :45:31. | |
electoral support for Sinn Fein. If an IRA man comes to a Protestant | :45:32. | :45:49. | |
home and my men are there, they will kill that IRA man. | :45:50. | :45:56. | |
What if they are in conflict with the British security forces? If they | :45:57. | :46:02. | |
are coming to join up with the IRA to kill Protestants, we will be in | :46:03. | :46:05. | |
conflict with them. How dangerous a statement was that | :46:06. | :46:07. | |
coming from you? It wasn't dangerous. | :46:08. | :46:10. | |
As a political leader? It was a statement that needed to be | :46:11. | :46:15. | |
made. I mean, this was a matter of life or death. | :46:16. | :46:19. | |
Despite Ian Paisley's protests, Dublin's growing involvement in the | :46:20. | :46:21. | |
affairs of Northern Ireland continued. It culminated in the then | :46:22. | :46:29. | |
Taoiseach Dr Garret FitzGerald and Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher | :46:30. | :46:32. | |
signing the Anglo Irish Agreement at Hillsborough Castle in 1985. This | :46:33. | :46:38. | |
gave Dublin a consultative role in political and security matters in | :46:39. | :46:45. | |
Northern Ireland. But did Mrs Thatcher betray you, | :46:46. | :46:48. | |
though, when she afforded Dublin a foothold in the affairs of Northern | :46:49. | :46:51. | |
Ireland through the Anglo Irish Agreement signed in November 1985? | :46:52. | :46:58. | |
Do you think she betrayed you? Yes, oh, it was a surrender | :46:59. | :47:01. | |
document. And even very mild Unionists would admit that. I mean, | :47:02. | :47:14. | |
it did unite the Unionist people. I mean, for the first time I could sit | :47:15. | :47:18. | |
in company with Ulster Unionists who saw the same way as I was seeing. | :47:19. | :47:26. | |
In the aftermath of the signing of the Anglo Irish Agreement, the DUP | :47:27. | :47:29. | |
leader raged against the Thatcher Government. The Iron Lady was now | :47:30. | :47:37. | |
public enemy number one. Ian Paisley and a broad section of Unionism held | :47:38. | :47:39. | |
a mass rally at Belfast City Hall. Write to the terrorist 's return to | :47:40. | :48:00. | |
full century? To the Irish Republic. And then Mrs Thatcher | :48:01. | :48:08. | |
tells us that that Republic must have say in our province. We say | :48:09. | :48:19. | |
never! Never! Never! Was that a spur of the moment | :48:20. | :48:22. | |
remark, that, "Never, never, never" remark you made? | :48:23. | :48:28. | |
It was a spur of the moment because in situations like that I allow my | :48:29. | :48:32. | |
heart to guide me and the fact that you are bringing this today shows it | :48:33. | :48:37. | |
rung a bell. You further added, "This is a war | :48:38. | :48:41. | |
and that no one mince words about it. People have already been hurt, | :48:42. | :48:45. | |
people will be hurt and sacrifices will have to be made. We're going to | :48:46. | :48:48. | |
marshal and organise and mobilize the forces of those who are opposed | :48:49. | :48:52. | |
to this Anglo Irish Agreement, the Government will have to learn that | :48:53. | :48:55. | |
they cannot force down the throats of the Protestant people this | :48:56. | :48:59. | |
abominable Agreement." Wasn't that a challenge to the State? | :49:00. | :49:03. | |
Yes, it was a challenge and we won - we have won. | :49:04. | :49:06. | |
But wasn't that very incendiary language to be using, sir? | :49:07. | :49:10. | |
Oh, but it needed to be, this was no joke. | :49:11. | :49:13. | |
This wasn't a display of men who just wanted to clear their throats. | :49:14. | :49:21. | |
Every man that went out was prepared to give their life. | :49:22. | :49:28. | |
While Ian Paisley was in America in August the following year - he | :49:29. | :49:31. | |
learned that his Democratic Unionist Party deputy Peter Robinson was | :49:32. | :49:40. | |
grabbing the headlines. He had marched with several hundred | :49:41. | :49:42. | |
supporters across the border into the village of Clontibret in County | :49:43. | :49:45. | |
Monaghan in the early hours of the morning. Peter Robinson wanted to | :49:46. | :49:50. | |
demonstrate the alleged absence of border security. The episode was to | :49:51. | :49:55. | |
create tensions between the DUP leader and his deputy. | :49:56. | :50:05. | |
Will continue to protest against the lack of security... | :50:06. | :50:10. | |
A member of your family said to me that you considered Peter Robinson a | :50:11. | :50:14. | |
silly ass for doing what he did. Did you think he was a silly ass to do | :50:15. | :50:17. | |
what he did? Well, I don't think that I used that | :50:18. | :50:21. | |
expression, but it should not have been done. | :50:22. | :50:25. | |
There was a feeling within your family, some members of your family, | :50:26. | :50:29. | |
that he might have been making a bid for the leadership at that point in | :50:30. | :50:32. | |
time? Everybody has a right to decide for | :50:33. | :50:36. | |
themselves what their answer to that is. I think he thought that was | :50:37. | :50:42. | |
going to be a tremendous uprising as a result of all that and that didn't | :50:43. | :50:46. | |
happen. Did you suspect that Peter Robinson | :50:47. | :50:50. | |
might shift or move to the Ulster Unionist Party at that point in time | :50:51. | :50:54. | |
when he stepped down as your deputy leader? | :50:55. | :50:55. | |
No, because the Ulster Unionists didn't like him, so they didn't. | :50:56. | :51:07. | |
Peter Robinson disputes that account of the origins of the protest, | :51:08. | :51:12. | |
saying that Ian Paisley had agreed to go. He ended up paying a fine of | :51:13. | :51:19. | |
17,500 Punt. How damaging was that to your party at that point in time, | :51:20. | :51:23. | |
the fact that people in the street in his own community referred to him | :51:24. | :51:26. | |
as Peter the Punt? Well, I mean that's... That's the | :51:27. | :51:35. | |
thing that he has to bear. I mean, he did it and he must take account | :51:36. | :51:39. | |
for it and it's so unimportant, you know, in the light of what was | :51:40. | :51:43. | |
happening, it was only like a fella scratching a match and the match | :51:44. | :51:47. | |
burns out and that's when he throws it away. | :51:48. | :52:01. | |
Neither the Anglo Irish Agreement nor the loyalist protests succeeded | :52:02. | :52:05. | |
in curbing IRA violence in Northern Ireland or Britain. The bombing of a | :52:06. | :52:12. | |
Remembrance Day Service in Enniskillen was the most notorious | :52:13. | :52:19. | |
of many atrocities in this period. Nevertheless, the Government was | :52:20. | :52:22. | |
prepared to embark on secret talks with the IRA. But this did not stop | :52:23. | :52:29. | |
the IRA taking its campaign to the heart of Government. The Cabinet | :52:30. | :52:34. | |
itself had a narrow escape when Downing Street was attacked with | :52:35. | :52:40. | |
mortar bombs. I think it was a cracker for the IRA | :52:41. | :52:45. | |
they were, they did well out of it, so they did, that they could go | :52:46. | :52:53. | |
right in and do that. I thought it should have put more of a strength | :52:54. | :52:57. | |
into the muscle of the Cabinet to go out and deal with IRA the way they | :52:58. | :53:02. | |
should have been dealt with. But the British Government | :53:03. | :53:05. | |
steadfastly kept the lines of communication open to the Republican | :53:06. | :53:09. | |
leadership. Eventually this led to the IRA cease-fire in the summer of | :53:10. | :53:17. | |
1994. Jim Molyneaux, the leader of the Ulster Unionist Party at that | :53:18. | :53:20. | |
point in time, said of the IRA cease-fire, "It was the worst thing | :53:21. | :53:24. | |
that ever happened to us." Did you share that view at that time? | :53:25. | :53:28. | |
Yes, certainly. Why did no Unionists see any merit | :53:29. | :53:31. | |
in that IRA cease-fire announcement at that time? | :53:32. | :53:40. | |
Well, I think that the people had been so let down that they had no | :53:41. | :53:43. | |
trust in the British Government getting us a proper road to getting | :53:44. | :53:47. | |
out of the killings and getting out of the agitations made to try and | :53:48. | :53:50. | |
destroy what our forefathers had fought for and died for. | :53:51. | :54:04. | |
Meanwhile a road map to peace had been identified and Ian Paisley | :54:05. | :54:09. | |
would be asked to swallow even tougher medicine. With the | :54:10. | :54:17. | |
full-blown intervention of London, Dublin and Washington in the affairs | :54:18. | :54:20. | |
of Northern Ireland, protracted talks chaired by US Senator George | :54:21. | :54:23. | |
Mitchell resulted in the signing of the Good Friday Agreement in 1998. | :54:24. | :54:36. | |
I am pleased to announce that the two governments in the political | :54:37. | :54:42. | |
parties in Northern Ireland have reached agreement. | :54:43. | :54:47. | |
Ian Paisley's great political rival, David Trimble the leader of the | :54:48. | :54:51. | |
Ulster Unionist Party - agreed a deal giving Republicans seats in | :54:52. | :54:53. | |
Government and guaranteeing that all Paramilitary prisoners would be set | :54:54. | :54:55. | |
free within two years. As the final touches were being put | :54:56. | :55:04. | |
to the Agreement, Ian Paisley and members of his Party brought their | :55:05. | :55:08. | |
opposition to the heart of the talks at Stormont. | :55:09. | :55:18. | |
Let me say to you tonight... Let me say... Let me... I wish you would | :55:19. | :55:34. | |
walk out. Yes, 71.12%. | :55:35. | :55:40. | |
The people of Ireland, north and south ratified the outcome of the | :55:41. | :55:43. | |
Good Friday Agreement in a referendum just over a month later. | :55:44. | :55:48. | |
Ian Paisley was once more on the outside. | :55:49. | :56:05. | |
# Cheerio, cheerio, cheerio.# At that moment in time, sir, how did | :56:06. | :56:14. | |
you feel as an outsider? Did you feel? | :56:15. | :56:17. | |
No. Disturbed? | :56:18. | :56:19. | |
No. Isolated, alone? | :56:20. | :56:22. | |
No, because the Official Unionists were divided on the issue, very much | :56:23. | :56:24. | |
divided. What was wrong with that deal, why | :56:25. | :56:28. | |
did you not accept such a deal? Because you don't sign a deal that's | :56:29. | :56:30. | |
going to, in the end, destroy you. Of the Good Friday Agreement you | :56:31. | :56:42. | |
said, "It was the greatest betrayal ever foisted by a Unionist leader on | :56:43. | :56:45. | |
the Unionist people." That's right, so it was. Is that how you saw it? | :56:46. | :56:51. | |
So it was, it was a selling-out of all that we stood for and all that | :56:52. | :56:55. | |
our fathers died for and the people I was speaking for were the people | :56:56. | :56:59. | |
who gave their lives in two World Wars to keep us in a place of | :57:00. | :57:09. | |
freedom. And this thing goes into the very | :57:10. | :57:13. | |
core of the Ulsterman and the Ulster Unionist and I don't think it's | :57:14. | :57:22. | |
understood. Ulster Unionists can fight things among themselves and be | :57:23. | :57:25. | |
very cruel in themselves, but there is a place where we all join | :57:26. | :57:29. | |
together and where blood is mixed with blood and bones are mixed with | :57:30. | :57:33. | |
bones; we say, "So far, but no farther". | :57:34. | :57:54. | |
What was it all about? Getting rid of Ian Paisley. In whose | :57:55. | :58:01. | |
interest is? The people who got... Took over. | :58:02. | :58:09. | |
They did a dirty tricks on him, dirty deeds on him. In the end, he | :58:10. | :58:14. | |
was left with no option but to stand down. | :58:15. | :58:18. | |
We are talking about road on road. How hurtful were those rocks? | :58:19. | :58:24. | |
They were absolutely disgraceful and they were disgraceful because the | :58:25. | :58:31. | |
man that they put in my position could keep his own seat. | :58:32. | :58:37. | |
They assassinated him by their words and deeds. I think they heeded him | :58:38. | :58:43. | |
shamefully. These people had only one thing to | :58:44. | :58:46. | |
serve and that was their own ego. | :58:47. | :58:50. |