21/06/2011 Daily Politics


21/06/2011

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Morning, folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics. He says it is not a

:00:26.:00:29.

U-turn on sentencing policy. Perhaps the Justice Secretary knows

:00:29.:00:35.

another way of turning a car around quickly. They were the worst of

:00:35.:00:39.

times, they were the worst of times. Is there any point in being middle

:00:39.:00:45.

class anymore? And could separating an MP from his dog be a breach of

:00:45.:00:55.
:00:55.:00:59.

All that in the next half hour. And with us for the duration George

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Galloway, former MP for Glasgow Kelvin and then Bethnal Green and

:01:02.:01:08.

the former leader of the Respect Party. The Arab Spring has yet to

:01:08.:01:12.

turn into Summer in some countries across the Middle East. Long-

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standing governments have fallen in Eqypt and Tunisia, there has been

:01:15.:01:17.

violence but no regime change in Bahrain and Yemen. In Libya,

:01:17.:01:22.

Gaddafi clings on. While in Damascus, the Syrian President

:01:22.:01:24.

remains defiant, blaming widespread violence and unrest on saboteurs

:01:24.:01:33.

armed with sophisticated weapons. More than 1,000 people have so far

:01:33.:01:39.

died and thousands more have fled to refugee camps in Turkey.

:01:39.:01:42.

Yesterday in a speech to the Syrian parliament, President Bashar al-

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Assad made some vague promises of reform - a National Dialogue to

:01:45.:01:53.

listen to the demands of legitimate protestors. But that has not

:01:53.:02:02.

impressed the opposition. It is a part of the world you know well. In

:02:02.:02:07.

2005, you praised Bashar al-Assad as the last Arab ruler. You

:02:07.:02:13.

describe him as a breath of fresh air. I do not think I was the only

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one. Up to a point. I was not alone in that. Everyone felt he was a

:02:19.:02:26.

breath of fresh air, British- educated, British wife. Tony Blair

:02:26.:02:35.

was all over him. He stayed at Buckingham Palace. He has had 10

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years to reform and he has not done it. He has probably left it too

:02:40.:02:44.

late. He has had three speeches to address the unrest in the country

:02:44.:02:49.

and he has failed. For those who want to see his downfall, I would

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say, be careful for what you wish. One characteristic of Syria is that

:02:56.:03:04.

it is a remarkably potentially explosive place with Arabs and

:03:04.:03:14.
:03:14.:03:17.

Kurds and Sunni and Shia. It has always puzzled me, particularly on

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the principle the apple never falls far from the tree that the British

:03:22.:03:26.

Foreign Office, and other commentators, yourself, or gave

:03:26.:03:31.

this guy the benefit of the Dove. My feelings were different from the

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Foreign Office in this respect. I support the Syrian stand on Arab

:03:35.:03:42.

national issues, on Palestine for example. It refuses to sign a

:03:42.:03:48.

surrender peace with Israel. It demands its land back. It continues

:03:48.:03:51.

to support the Palestinian resistance and the Lebanese for

:03:51.:03:59.

that matter. Even though he was a pressing his own people? That is a

:03:59.:04:03.

paradox. His own people had a lot fewer freedoms than Palestinians

:04:03.:04:10.

have in Israel. I do not think that is true. The Palestinians are under

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illegal military operation -- occupation. I think there should be

:04:15.:04:22.

up by national state. Do you think Israel has the right to exist?

:04:22.:04:28.

state has a right to exist. It is a political formation. Russia has the

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right to exist but not communist Russia. What am arguing for is by

:04:34.:04:39.

National state of Israel-Palestine, Palestine-Israel were all the Jews,

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Christians and Muslims live. It would not be a Jewish state.

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work for an Iranian TV outfit in London. Is it true when you

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interviewed the ruler of around you began by saying, I require police

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protection in London from the Iranian opposition because of my

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support for your election campaign. I mention this so you know where I

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am coming from. Her had not known I was on trial today. I thought you

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wanted my expertise on Syria. We could quote some things from Fox

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News. The short answer is, at no. I, like ABC, supported the fact that

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he won the election. I did not support his election in any way.

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said, because of my support for your election campaign. I could

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give you my 1000 if you show me a tiny bit of support for his

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election campaign. Did you say that? I said my support for the

:05:57.:06:03.

outcome of the election. I mention this because you will know where I

:06:03.:06:09.

am coming from. That is right. a big supporter of yours, I want

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you to know that, before I begin the interview. It is very

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conceivable on Fox News, you think because you support and are

:06:20.:06:24.

associated with the right wing drivel that nobody will cast that

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up. I knew the way you would reply to these questions would be playing

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the man rather than the ball. are playing the man, Andrew. You

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did not even have the grace... if I come on to your show, I would

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answer your questions. You did not tell me this was the sort of

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interview it would be. You should be ready for anything. I believed

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you when you said you wanted to talk about Bashar al-Assad, dogs in

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Parliament and sundry domestic matters. More fool me. We will

:07:02.:07:09.

leave it on that. It is now time for our quiz. The question for

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:07:19.:07:34.

At the end of the show, George will Now, these are austere times and

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nowhere is the financial pain being felt more than in the Daily

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So we're incredibly grateful to Her Majesty's Government for its

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consistent behaviour. And this morning they have again filled the

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air with the stench of burning rubber. Which allows us to recycle

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our favourite graphic. Theses U- turns may be costing the government

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a lot of money but they are saving pots of cash here. Here's Anita

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with the details. The Government published its Green Paper on prison

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sentencing in England and Wales in December last year. Justice

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Secretary Ken Clarke said the aim was to break the cycle of crime.

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But another goal was to save money by cutting the number of people who

:08:19.:08:22.

are locked up - Mr Clarke argued that for many criminals prison is

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costly and ineffectual. The biggest change would have seen sentences

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halved for defendants who plead guilty early. The proposal caused a

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row - made worse when Mr Clarke suggested that some rapes were less

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serious than others. The plans were backed by Nick Clegg but David

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Cameron was unhappy and a partial U-turn was mooted. The 50%

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reduction would be limited to minor offences. It now looks like the U-

:08:57.:09:03.

turn is complete. The plan has been scrapped altogether. There will

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also be new restrictions on early release. And tougher rules on knife

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crime. The changes will please critics who said the Government was

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turning soft on crime. But Ken Clarke will now have to find

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savings of something like �130 million elsewhere. Here's what the

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Prime Minister had to say a few minutes ago. There will be no

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change to the current position on early guilty pleas in any category

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of case. The money that would have been saved would be saved through

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greater efficiency in other parts of the ministry of justice Budgett.

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That was the Prime Minister. This is David Davis. Welcome back to the

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Daily Politics. If it looks like a U-turn, talks like a U-turn, I

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suggest you it is a U-turn. It is a U-turn that is a good U-turn. They

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put out a green paper, green peppers are supposed to be the

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basis of discussion. This one proposes 50% reductions for guilty

:10:08.:10:13.

pleas. It was a bad idea. People would have been on the streets more

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quickly. The other ones would have been piling criminals who would

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continue their lives of crime. The Prime Minister did the right thing.

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Didn't Ken Clarke have a point which was swept away by tabloid

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newspapers? For a lot of people, prison does not work. There are

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categories which I do not think have been mentioned this morning.

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Prisoners with psychiatric conditions who should be insecure

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wards rather than prisons. Hopefully that will happen. One or

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two other categories. The primary proposal that people would take

:10:51.:10:55.

more community sentences rather than prison sentences in the hope

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it would get a better rate of rehabilitation does not stand up.

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Part of the reason he was doing it would save money. He has to save

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over 100 million from his part of the Budget. Where does the money

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come from? I hunch is, you have got about 11,000 foreign prisoners in

:11:16.:11:22.

UK prisons. It is an extraordinary number. I suspect, I know they are

:11:22.:11:29.

trying very hard, to come to arrangements. Judges will have

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something to say about that? They may. There is nothing -- wrong

:11:35.:11:40.

about sending people back to their own countries, the French back to

:11:40.:11:47.

France for instance. Two prisoners come to -- from places where Louis

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would argue human rights were in danger? If that were the case, you

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could send 11,000 back. They would be lucky if they get 5000. That is

:11:57.:12:02.

a lot of money. It would cover most of the issue. The Prime Minister

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said this morning before we came on air that he had covered some other

:12:08.:12:13.

sentences by life sentences. He said life is popular - people know

:12:13.:12:17.

what is meant by a life-sentence. I put it to you that people do not

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know what is meant by a lad sentences. I do not know what a

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life sentences. In many cases, I do not know. It is a term of art is

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what it is. The other issue which is important as well, which was up

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for grabs in a green paper, was the idea of an indeterminate sentence.

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You keep people in for a length of time to be sure they are safe. That

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has also gone. That is the nearest thing we have now to the old-

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fashioned idea of a life sentence. You are not lead had until you are

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safe. Is there not a case, as happened under the last government

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and has happened and have this one, will try to get penal policy on the

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treats -- cheap? We do not see what is going on inside prisons. We put

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people away. We have still got Victorian slums, or the modern

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equivalent, in pretty bad conditions which become colleges of

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crime. The sensible policy would be to build bigger and better prisons

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where people were treated with dignity, serve their punishments

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but also be given the help to get back on to the straight and narrow

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when they got out. You are right in one respect. The previous

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government tried to do things on the cheap. For example they

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multiplied by 20 the number of people who had suspended sentences.

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31,000 of them are still on the streets. Quite a lot of that is

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cosmetic justice and not real justice. You are right but we need

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to do more in prison. The point about the Green Paper was the idea

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of making prisoners work. A typical prisoner is in his twenties. He

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does not read, write, he does not have the skills to hold down the

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job. He is probably on crack Cockayne. He steals from his mother

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to feed his habit. All of those things have been let happen. None

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of this is happening because of overcrowding. Whereas you can't

:14:30.:14:40.
:14:40.:14:40.

What you describe does should be as expensive, but not as expenses by

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as having the biggest prison population and the highest

:14:43.:14:47.

reoffending rate in western Europe, which cost society more, both in

:14:47.:14:51.

the re- imprisonment of the people but also in the crimes and

:14:51.:14:56.

devastation left behind. I am four fixed-term penalties, I am not any

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kind of liberal. They should be strong penalties, but you should be

:15:02.:15:07.

able to work a discount downwards from good behaviour and application

:15:07.:15:11.

to education. The more you train and educate yourself, the better

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you behave, the sentence would slowly go. You are right, the cost

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of being out of prison for a professional criminal is 10 times

:15:20.:15:23.

to society the cost of being in prison. But one of the problems

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with the discount system is everybody gets it. George was

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saying you have to work for the discount. David would not know this

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but the others on the front bench of the Tories would, it is more

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expensive to keep a man in prison for a year then to send a boy to

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Eton. Do you send your boys to Eton?! A point well made.

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Aren't you worried that your government is getting a reputation

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for you turns? You are now facing this confrontation with the public

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sector unions, something nobody in this Government has ever had to

:16:03.:16:12.

place. Of course there is an issue. I think if the Prime Minister

:16:12.:16:15.

thinks he has got it wrong first time he should change his mind. But

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there is an issue about vested interests, who approve most

:16:20.:16:24.

progressive policies, they would suddenly feel more muscular as a

:16:24.:16:28.

result of these changes and some of the people defending government

:16:28.:16:34.

policy might feel less inclined to do so. I did what the Prime

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Minister hanging on desperately to a policy when he thinks it is wrong

:16:37.:16:41.

-- I don't want the Prime Minister hanging on.

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Home-ownership, foreign holidays, sending the kids to university or,

:16:46.:16:51.

indeed, to Eton. But as we feel the pinch, are these middle-class

:16:51.:16:55.

aspirations moving out of the reach of those on middling incomes? We

:16:55.:17:05.
:17:05.:17:08.

will debate that in a moment, but Here is a question - how do you

:17:08.:17:14.

know you have become middle class? You wake up and smell the coffee.

:17:14.:17:17.

According to the pollsters, you know you're middle-class when you

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enjoy nothing more than a nice cafetiere of freshly brewed filter

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coffee. But what with rising taxes and falling house prices, cuts in

:17:26.:17:31.

benefits, tuition fees, dodgy pensions, is there actually any

:17:31.:17:36.

point being middle-class any more? Recent research suggests more than

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70% of the electorate think they are middle-class. Right now, they

:17:39.:17:44.

are under pressure. I think being middle-class has got a whole lot

:17:44.:17:49.

harder over the last couple of years. Our survey shows that 46% of

:17:49.:17:52.

people who self to find his middle- class say that it gets harder and

:17:53.:17:58.

harder these days to make ends meet -- who define themselves as middle-

:17:58.:18:04.

class. But two groups which are hardest hit are the bargain hunters

:18:04.:18:07.

and the squeezed once. Those people really feel their family finances

:18:07.:18:11.

are on the edge and they could tip over to the wrong side at any point,

:18:11.:18:16.

they are very emotional about it, they are not whingeing, they really,

:18:16.:18:21.

really feel things are difficult. It is a bit dreary being middle-

:18:21.:18:25.

class right now, but last time I looked, it was not much fare being

:18:25.:18:30.

anybody else, really. Why should we care? I think to be middle class is

:18:30.:18:38.

the finest day you can being. If you value reading, family,

:18:38.:18:42.

stability, keeping the law and paying your tax, all those

:18:42.:18:47.

unglamorous things that make society work, you have the rich

:18:47.:18:52.

with their fancy lawyers and the poor who do not pay so much tax. If

:18:52.:18:54.

you are concerned about what goes into the Treasury, you'd better

:18:54.:18:59.

look after the middle class. If you are feeling the pinch, help is at

:18:59.:19:05.

hand. Actually, I think the middle classes are in a very, very strong

:19:05.:19:08.

position to be domestic servant to the rich, because they could be

:19:08.:19:14.

tutors, my son, for instance, in his gap year, is cleaning up as a

:19:14.:19:18.

tennis coach to the brick nations and all his friends are tutors. You

:19:18.:19:23.

can still make a living, you'll be pleased to hear. That is a relief.

:19:23.:19:27.

It is easy to poke fun at the concept of being middle-class, but

:19:27.:19:31.

it is something most voters either are or aspire to be. Politicians,

:19:32.:19:37.

ignore them at -- at your peril. Mary Ann Sieghart from the

:19:37.:19:40.

Independent joins us and George is still with us. Do you cried tears

:19:40.:19:45.

for the middle classes? Jimmy Durante he said I have been rich, I

:19:45.:19:49.

have been poor, being rich is better. Being middle-class is

:19:49.:19:53.

definitely better than being amongst the working class or, worse,

:19:53.:19:57.

a month those who have fallen out of the class system and are long-

:19:57.:20:01.

term unemployed and desperately poor. I don't quite tears. If I

:20:01.:20:06.

pretended to, you would see through it -- I don't cry tears. If you

:20:06.:20:10.

take the middle classes out of welfare of -- support, they will

:20:10.:20:13.

find things uncomfortable, but people on lower incomes will find

:20:13.:20:19.

poverty. A George is right, it is always worse if you are poor.

:20:19.:20:23.

Imagine, I am agreeing with you! But that is not to say middle-class

:20:23.:20:28.

people are not feeling very, very stretched at the moment. The median

:20:28.:20:34.

income in this country is �20,800 a year, it is not huge. When you see

:20:34.:20:37.

newspaper editors inveighing against attacks on the middle

:20:37.:20:41.

classes, they are talking about top-rate taxpayers, only the top

:20:41.:20:48.

10% of income distribution. feel the squeezed middle exists?

:20:48.:20:53.

The squeezed middle exists. It is roughly either side of the median

:20:53.:20:57.

income. Those people are very squeezed. They are losing tax

:20:57.:21:01.

credits, prices are going up, wages are not going up as fast as

:21:01.:21:08.

inflation, they are seeing real wage cuts, life is very difficult.

:21:08.:21:11.

The party the EU were once very much associated with, what do you

:21:11.:21:15.

make of their appeal, do they understand it in the way that Mary-

:21:15.:21:19.

Ann does? We need a definition of middle-class that we can agree with.

:21:19.:21:23.

I don't think they are the people on �20,000 a year, that might be

:21:23.:21:29.

Mary Ann's definition, it is not mine. That is middle-income. You're

:21:29.:21:33.

talking heads, some of them known very well to me, a long-time friend

:21:33.:21:39.

of mine, one of them, they are not living on �20,000 a year, or even

:21:39.:21:44.

five or seven times that. We need to be careful about what we mean by

:21:44.:21:47.

middle-class. But there is no doubt that mortgages are at an historic

:21:47.:21:52.

low and have been for an historic length of time, so the more you are

:21:52.:21:58.

into the mortgage market the better, relatively, you are doing. The

:21:58.:22:02.

people looking for a council house, for example, have never found it

:22:02.:22:09.

harder to get one. Your long-term friends, you don't

:22:09.:22:13.

think, know where the middle class is. But those people making policy

:22:13.:22:19.

for a party, banking and electoral future on this, do they understand?

:22:19.:22:22.

Does the Miliband camp understand the squeezed middle? They are

:22:22.:22:25.

having to appeal to the whole country, having to attend to the

:22:25.:22:30.

loss of support among us to... And this is what Blue Labour is all

:22:30.:22:35.

about, the loss of support amongst working-class people. Would I be

:22:35.:22:41.

right in saying maybe it is expedient to fudge it a little bit?

:22:41.:22:43.

National parties competing for power in the nation, you have to

:22:43.:22:48.

have something for everybody. Because nobody admits to being

:22:48.:22:52.

upper-class any more, the definition of middle-class... Very,

:22:52.:23:00.

very few people at the very top... You know, these people earning

:23:01.:23:04.

�100,000, say, they are certainly at the very upper end of the income

:23:04.:23:08.

distribution, but because nobody admits to being upper-class, the

:23:08.:23:13.

definition of middle class has gone far too far up the income stream.

:23:13.:23:21.

You would say middle class is... From the median rate to...? Below

:23:22.:23:29.

the top rate of tax. Basic rate tax payers. It is not about money. I

:23:29.:23:33.

learned a very, very much more than that, but I am still working class.

:23:33.:23:41.

So is Andrew. How are you working class? You are winking. How are you

:23:41.:23:49.

working class? It is difficult to define but easy to recognise. I

:23:49.:23:52.

feel socially inferior to Mary Ann Sieghart, for example. You a much

:23:52.:23:56.

more than I do. It is not about learning. I know she looks down her

:23:56.:24:02.

nose at me, even though I am very much more than her. It is much more

:24:02.:24:07.

complex than money, class. If John crust -- Prescott can be middle

:24:07.:24:10.

class, I don't see why George can't be. He was definitely wrong about

:24:11.:24:15.

that. I would love to revisit this, fascinating. Then queue for being

:24:15.:24:19.

with us. Now...

:24:19.:24:25.

By did you write that? I did not! Are cats middle-class or working-

:24:25.:24:30.

class? What a segue! A very bad one!

:24:30.:24:37.

I know you know a thing or two about feline behaviour, George. It

:24:37.:24:41.

seems Larry the Downing Street cat has been working very hard. The

:24:41.:24:45.

Prime Minister revealed in a radio interview yesterday that he is a

:24:45.:24:49.

smashing mouser. Busy eradicating the rodent infestation in Number

:24:50.:24:57.

Ten. He is a good mouser. I think he has

:24:57.:25:04.

got three. He has caught three mice, verifiable.

:25:04.:25:08.

Larry is not very keen on men. He was a rescue cat and I have a

:25:08.:25:12.

feeling he had some bad... He loves all the women but he is a bit

:25:12.:25:21.

nervous of the men at Number Ten. Familiar enough, he liked Obama.

:25:21.:25:24.

Obama stroked him and he was all right with him. But he is doing

:25:24.:25:33.

well. -- funnily enough, he liked Obama.

:25:33.:25:37.

Concentrate! That was Larry the Downing Street

:25:37.:25:42.

cat. For reasons of impartiality we could not have done an item about a

:25:42.:25:46.

cat without mentioning dogs. The Conservative MP Matthew Offord is a

:25:46.:25:53.

dog man, such a dog man Matti wants to take his dog Max to work. The

:25:53.:25:56.

parliamentary authorities will not let him. He intends to use human

:25:56.:26:01.

rights legislation. Just as well we have not got a depression, a war in

:26:01.:26:07.

Libya, that we can get to these important issues! Matthew joins us

:26:07.:26:12.

now on his lonesome. Why just Parliament? If you really took this

:26:12.:26:15.

seriously, wouldn't you want legislation that allowed people to

:26:15.:26:20.

take dog to work wherever they were? You are over-egging the

:26:20.:26:25.

pudding a little bit. Never on this show! The whole issue arose because,

:26:25.:26:30.

in jest, I said to somebody who kept quoting health and safety,

:26:30.:26:36.

under Article 8 I had a right to a family life, including my dog.

:26:36.:26:39.

are you doing this because you would think you out to discredit

:26:39.:26:44.

human rights legislation? Human rights legislation has discredited

:26:44.:26:48.

itself. One thing which has emerged over the last couple of days is

:26:48.:26:52.

that there are thousands of people using the Human Rights Act and

:26:52.:26:55.

Article 8 to ensure they are not removed from this country. What is

:26:55.:27:00.

more important to you, getting your dog into Parliament or discrediting

:27:00.:27:03.

human rights legislation? Addressing the human rights

:27:03.:27:12.

legislation... Discrediting, I said. Addressing and removing it. As a

:27:12.:27:16.

former BBC employee, I know that you need a pet to get an issue one.

:27:16.:27:20.

The dog is being used, you don't care if he gets into Parliament or

:27:20.:27:25.

not. He could be kept at home, endlessly, unloved, because you are

:27:25.:27:28.

trying to prove their point rather than trying to getting into

:27:28.:27:33.

Parliament? As a serious politician, it is about the Human Rights Act.

:27:33.:27:37.

The number of people using Article 8 to prevent themselves from being

:27:37.:27:42.

deported, many after they have committed serious crimes. Have you

:27:42.:27:48.

favour of human rights legislation. He might be, but it does not apply

:27:48.:27:54.

to him. But the import of point is article 8 and the �12 million we

:27:54.:27:57.

are spending on people using Legal Aid to defend themselves on article

:27:57.:28:03.

8 in this country. You are lonely without your dog? An MP is never

:28:03.:28:11.

lonely. Have ours! He is called Patch, look after him. To the MP

:28:11.:28:18.

for Barking?! A quick thought, George? Working dogs only. The best

:28:18.:28:22.

dog story I ever saw, the week before we broke up for the 97

:28:22.:28:27.

election, David Blunkett's dog leads him into the chamber and led

:28:27.:28:31.

him to the government side, uncannily aware that in just a few

:28:31.:28:35.

weeks' time Labour would be the Government. True story. Not a

:28:35.:28:39.

shaggy-dog story. He is so nervous about being seen a photograph with

:28:39.:28:44.

our dog that he has put it behind the sofa.

:28:44.:28:46.

We will get the dog back, we are We will get the dog back, we are

:28:46.:28:56.
:28:56.:28:56.

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