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Morning and welcome to this Daily Politics special on the day the | :00:30. | :00:34. | |
Commons has postponed its summer recess so that the Prime Minister | :00:34. | :00:38. | |
can address MPs on the phone hacking scandal. David Cameron | :00:38. | :00:41. | |
returned to Westminster last night after cutting short his trade | :00:41. | :00:46. | |
mission to Africa. He will make a statement at 11:30am and then take | :00:46. | :00:49. | |
questions from both sides of the House. The Commons will continue to | :00:49. | :00:53. | |
debate for they have rest of the afternoon in matter that has | :00:53. | :00:58. | |
convulsed media, the politics and the police. Hot on the heels of | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
yesterday's evidence, police are accused of a catalogue of failures | :01:01. | :01:08. | |
in their evidence. -- in their investigations. And we will be | :01:08. | :01:11. | |
examining where this extraordinary state of affairs leaves of British | :01:11. | :01:19. | |
politics. And with us to watch the Prime | :01:19. | :01:23. | |
Minister's statement, we will shortly be joined by Philip Hammond, | :01:23. | :01:27. | |
the Transport Secretary. Naturally, as usual, he is late for the | :01:27. | :01:31. | |
programme. He is always late. We're going to get him a watch for his | :01:31. | :01:37. | |
Christmas. We are also joined by Tessa Jowell and the Liberal | :01:37. | :01:45. | |
Democrat spokesman on Culture, Media and Sport, Don Foster. | :01:45. | :01:48. | |
Bomb Affairs Select Committee have this morning released the report | :01:48. | :01:52. | |
into phone hacking. It accuses News International of trying to thought | :01:52. | :01:55. | |
to the investigation, but it is also scathing about the police, | :01:55. | :02:00. | |
accusing them of a catalogue of failures. Here is one of highlights | :02:00. | :02:06. | |
from yesterday's evidence, with John Yates, who resigned on Monday, | :02:06. | :02:11. | |
being asked why he held the daughter of former News of the | :02:11. | :02:15. | |
World editor Neil Wallis get a job with the police. I was a post box | :02:16. | :02:22. | |
for a CBE. From Mr Wallis's daughter. I am very happy to give | :02:22. | :02:27. | |
the committee the e-mail, which gives an equivocal interest in | :02:27. | :02:33. | |
whether she gets employment or not. I passed on her e-mail and her CV | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
to the director of human resources. Thereafter, I do not know what | :02:36. | :02:42. | |
happened to it. It happens to it all the time. I know that many | :02:43. | :02:46. | |
members of parliament employ friends and family. That was John | :02:46. | :02:51. | |
Yates giving evidence yesterday. A few minutes ago, I spoke to the | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
chairman of the Home Affairs Select Committee, key fast. I think we | :02:54. | :03:00. | |
have a problem with Keith Vaz. I know you interviewed him a few | :03:00. | :03:03. | |
moments ago. I did, and he was all right a few | :03:03. | :03:09. | |
minutes ago. This business of the police not | :03:09. | :03:15. | |
only being thwarted by News International, but in the words of | :03:15. | :03:20. | |
the committee, showing no real will to override the failure to co- | :03:20. | :03:25. | |
operate and get on with it. It is quite a damning condemnation of | :03:25. | :03:29. | |
News International, which it would have been useful to have had before | :03:29. | :03:34. | |
yesterday's keeling, and it is just as damning of the police. Agreed? | :03:34. | :03:40. | |
It absolutely is. There is a lot of material here that these to be | :03:40. | :03:43. | |
looked at in more detail in the Levenson inquiry which is just | :03:43. | :03:50. | |
about to start. If we take the Home Affairs Select Committee report, | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
which is basically saying that News International strutted the inquiry, | :03:54. | :03:58. | |
but actually the police were not up for an inquiry in the first place, | :03:58. | :04:02. | |
and now we know of this interlocking set of relationships | :04:03. | :04:06. | |
between News International and the police, should we be surprised that | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
they had no appetite to do an investigation? I do not know about | :04:10. | :04:14. | |
that, because we do not know who was involved in the links with | :04:14. | :04:18. | |
journalists. You're right, there is lots of evidence for a lack of | :04:18. | :04:25. | |
appetite. One example, John Yates admitted he spent eight hours only | :04:25. | :04:29. | |
reviewing 11,000 pages of evidence, and then came to the conclusion | :04:29. | :04:33. | |
based on that very limited flick through it that there was no | :04:33. | :04:40. | |
further need for an inquiry. Frankly, that is disgraceful. | :04:40. | :04:42. | |
evidence for News International obstruction and for the | :04:42. | :04:46. | |
indifference of the police was gathering throughout the years | :04:46. | :04:51. | |
Labour was in power. Yet I do not remember your party in opposition | :04:51. | :04:57. | |
ever making a deal about it. Indeed, your leader went and hired a former | :04:57. | :05:03. | |
editor of News International. of us saw what was going on. With | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
the benefit of hindsight, we are all very shocked about this. Tories | :05:07. | :05:12. | |
do not regard Ian? None of us saw the scale of what was happening. -- | :05:12. | :05:17. | |
do not read the Guardian. I do not think we understood the connections | :05:17. | :05:20. | |
between the police and News International. Nobody did. | :05:20. | :05:25. | |
Basically, you were ignorant? was a police inquiry and we were | :05:25. | :05:29. | |
told that that had concluded and that people had been through the | :05:29. | :05:35. | |
courts and gone to jail. But we knew that was not true in the 2009. | :05:35. | :05:40. | |
We knew that News International had basically signed a hush money | :05:40. | :05:45. | |
agreement with Mr Taylor and Mr Clifford. Obviously, those | :05:45. | :05:51. | |
settlements had been made. We knew that something was wrong. Yeah, but | :05:51. | :05:56. | |
hindsight is a wonderful thing. was there not hindsight in 2009? | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
can all see that something was wrong and the relationships are | :06:00. | :06:06. | |
extremely problematic. But you were told in 2009 and before that | :06:06. | :06:10. | |
something was a mess, that the original role reporter defence | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
collapsed with the Taylor incident and the Clifford incident. The | :06:14. | :06:22. | |
royal reporter was not investigating their head of the FA. | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
And not only did you have someone from News International at the | :06:26. | :06:32. | |
heart of opposition, he then took him into government. But the police | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
have looked at these allegations and decided there were no further... | :06:36. | :06:39. | |
But the police look as if they were in the pockets of News | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
International. We know that now but the presumption has always been to | :06:43. | :06:46. | |
assume that the police are also investigating the issues put before | :06:46. | :06:51. | |
them. When the police tell us there is no case to answer, that is what | :06:51. | :06:59. | |
Morse people have accepted. -- most people. I wonder why you go back to | :06:59. | :07:04. | |
2009. In 2006, we had the report saying that 305 journalists had | :07:04. | :07:09. | |
illegally obtained information. understand that, but he was not in | :07:09. | :07:14. | |
power them. Tessa Jowell was, so you have teed me up my sleeve. To | :07:14. | :07:20. | |
go further back, when Rebekah Brooks told a Select Committee of | :07:20. | :07:25. | |
the House of Commons that News International had paid police in | :07:25. | :07:35. | |
:07:35. | :07:35. | ||
2003, who was Home Secretary? 2003, I think John Reid was. No, it | :07:35. | :07:39. | |
was David Blunkett, and he did nothing about it. You add the | :07:39. | :07:42. | |
editor of the biggest-selling daily newspaper in the country saying | :07:42. | :07:47. | |
that she paid the police and the government did nothing about it. | :07:47. | :07:54. | |
look back on this time and the time when I was told that my phone was | :07:54. | :08:04. | |
hacked, and what is absolutely clear is that to take Philip's., | :08:04. | :08:11. | |
with hindsight, all the signs of real trouble with their but we did | :08:11. | :08:19. | |
nothing. -- to take fill-up's point. For the record, David Blunkett now | :08:19. | :08:25. | |
works for News International. He writes a column and I think he is | :08:25. | :08:31. | |
an adviser. So you did nothing them. Let us move on. Andrew, just a | :08:31. | :08:38. | |
second... No, let me move on. 2006, the Information Commissioner | :08:38. | :08:42. | |
produces a devastating report showing that the illegal gathering | :08:42. | :08:48. | |
of information is endemic in the Fleet Street, endemic. News of the | :08:48. | :08:52. | |
World, definitely part of it, but not the worst. What did the Labour | :08:52. | :08:56. | |
government do about it? What happened then, and I have checked | :08:56. | :09:06. | |
:09:06. | :09:06. | ||
this, we did introduce legislation to make forms of hacking a criminal | :09:06. | :09:11. | |
offence at that stage. But you did nothing to investigate the | :09:11. | :09:14. | |
information commissioner's report which showed these practices were | :09:14. | :09:21. | |
endemic. He looked at the other way. That is not true. We did legislate | :09:21. | :09:26. | |
in order to create a new offence in relation to a particular aspect of | :09:26. | :09:33. | |
hacking. I don't think it was implemented with that degree of | :09:33. | :09:37. | |
vigour because of broader concerns about prison numbers and so forth, | :09:37. | :09:41. | |
but we certainly did not simply turn our faces away from the | :09:41. | :09:46. | |
information. I have no knowledge of what you did. In July 2009, the | :09:47. | :09:50. | |
Guardian published a report which showed that the police | :09:50. | :09:55. | |
investigation which had only touched on one reporter and one | :09:55. | :10:00. | |
private detective had clearly been inadequate, otherwise News | :10:00. | :10:04. | |
International would not be shelling out �2 million, who was the Home | :10:04. | :10:14. | |
:10:14. | :10:14. | ||
Secretary? It change rather a lot. It was Alan Johnson. And there was | :10:15. | :10:19. | |
no pressure from the government to reopen its investigation. I think | :10:19. | :10:26. | |
Alan has been on record on a number of occasions making clear that it | :10:26. | :10:29. | |
was not simply that he did nothing, he considered the evidence | :10:29. | :10:38. | |
available to them. At that stage, he did not pursue it. And then we | :10:38. | :10:42. | |
had... Journalism here has played a magnificent part in getting to the | :10:42. | :10:48. | |
bottom of this. It was not for journalists, we would not know. | :10:48. | :10:53. | |
When you look at this situation, with a country's most important | :10:53. | :10:57. | |
newspaper group seems to be interlocked with the police from | :10:57. | :11:01. | |
the very top down, and that there is a revolving door of job was | :11:01. | :11:06. | |
going back and forward, and some people are actually working for | :11:06. | :11:10. | |
both organisations at the same time, do not have to scratch yourself and | :11:10. | :11:16. | |
saying, are we living in London or -- London or Pola more? It looks | :11:16. | :11:22. | |
and feels very uncomfortable. Basically, we may have to start | :11:22. | :11:29. | |
again without the media works and how the police work. On the face of | :11:29. | :11:35. | |
the evidence we have before us, it is not working in a way that is | :11:35. | :11:40. | |
conducive to good governance. there not a need for a massive | :11:40. | :11:44. | |
clear-out of the London Metropolitan Police? Yeah, and | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
bathing for one thing I would say above all is that when they're | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
looking to replace Stephenson with a new commissioner, they have got | :11:51. | :11:56. | |
to look outside the Met for somebody to succeed him. Very | :11:56. | :12:01. | |
quickly, I do not want for the outstanding police officers, like | :12:01. | :12:05. | |
the officers who run the police forces in the boroughs that I | :12:05. | :12:10. | |
represent, to be denigrated. They are not a problem. They did not | :12:10. | :12:13. | |
hire Neil Wallis. They did not have 18 dinners with News International. | :12:13. | :12:19. | |
No one is attacking them. Let us speak up for the decent police and | :12:19. | :12:23. | |
not assume that all organisation is corrupt. You have done that, and | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
they do not think anybody is saying that is the case. If anybody | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
doubted it, you have set them right. The Prime Minister has returned | :12:30. | :12:34. | |
early from his trip to Africa. He had already cut it short ones to | :12:34. | :12:39. | |
address the Commons. We will bring that to you live. He will have to | :12:39. | :12:43. | |
give a good performance. He has to win over Tory backbenchers. As we | :12:43. | :12:47. | |
speak to them, they're really unhappy with how he has been | :12:47. | :12:53. | |
handling the hacking scandal. There is a 1922 Committee tonight, and | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
they seem to be cruising for a bruising with the Prime Minister | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
this evening. He has to show today that he is in command of the | :13:01. | :13:05. | |
situation. Downing Street has said coverage of the scandal has lost a | :13:05. | :13:15. | |
sense of perspective. Calls for the Prime Minister to resign have only | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
come from one or two quarters. Labour have also been criticised | :13:18. | :13:21. | |
for their links with News International and what they did or | :13:21. | :13:26. | |
did not do during their years in power. We could be in for a feisty | :13:26. | :13:31. | |
debate in the chamber. We do the parties stand? | :13:31. | :13:36. | |
The Prime Minister's troubles began with his decision to give former | :13:36. | :13:39. | |
News of the World editor Andy Coulson a second chance by hiring | :13:39. | :13:45. | |
him as his communications chief. He is now on police bail but denies | :13:45. | :13:48. | |
any wrongdoing. Yesterday, it emerged that the Prime Minister's | :13:48. | :13:52. | |
chief of staff, Ed Llewellyn, turned down an offer to be briefed | :13:52. | :13:54. | |
turned down an offer to be briefed by the police on aspects of the | :13:54. | :13:57. | |
phone hacking inquiry. And we learnt that the former deputy | :13:57. | :14:01. | |
editor of the News of the World, Neil Wallis, also arrested in | :14:01. | :14:04. | |
connection with hacking allegations but not charged, had offered | :14:04. | :14:07. | |
but not charged, had offered informal advice to Andy Coulson | :14:07. | :14:10. | |
before the general election. Labour and Ed Miliband wanted to be seen | :14:10. | :14:14. | |
taking the lead over the hacking scandal. He called for Rebekah | :14:14. | :14:21. | |
Brooks to resign and the BSkyB bid to be blocked. But he is also faced | :14:21. | :14:26. | |
questions after he hired Tom Baldwin as his director of | :14:26. | :14:29. | |
communications. Earlier this year, a leaked e-mail from Tom Baldwin | :14:29. | :14:33. | |
showed he had discouraged MPs from linking their opposition to News | :14:33. | :14:40. | |
Corps takeover of BSkyB with allegations of phone hacking. -- | :14:40. | :14:44. | |
News Corp's takeover. As for the Liberal Democrats, Nick Clegg | :14:44. | :14:47. | |
claims they are the only party not to have courted News International. | :14:47. | :14:52. | |
At Christmas, Vince Cable was caught in a secret recording saying | :14:52. | :14:56. | |
he had declared war on Rupert Murdoch and as a result, had | :14:56. | :15:00. | |
responsibility for considering News Corp's bid taken away from them. | :15:00. | :15:04. | |
Last week, he joked that he was delighted to discover that everyone | :15:04. | :15:14. | |
:15:14. | :15:16. | ||
in Britain and House of Commons now Philip Hammond, your party not | :15:16. | :15:22. | |
content with hiring the editor of the newspaper at the centre of the | :15:22. | :15:25. | |
hacking row, you then went on to take advice from the deputy editor | :15:25. | :15:31. | |
of that newspaper. That was very smart. The story as I understand it | :15:31. | :15:35. | |
is that Neil Wallis may have been informally in contact with Andy | :15:35. | :15:39. | |
Coulson during the election campaign. He advised on the Tory's | :15:39. | :15:45. | |
election campaign. Not in a paid up as a bit, I imagine in a totally | :15:45. | :15:51. | |
voluntary capacity. -- not in a paid capacity. You get a lot of | :15:51. | :15:56. | |
free, unsolicited advice in a general election. Two of the people | :15:56. | :16:02. | |
advising your election campaign have now been arrested. Anybody | :16:03. | :16:07. | |
else advising you been arrested? That is an absurd extrapolation. | :16:07. | :16:11. | |
Andy Coulson was of course involved in the management of the election | :16:11. | :16:15. | |
campaign but the fact that somebody who used to wear quicken had a | :16:15. | :16:20. | |
conversation with him does not make that person and adviser to our | :16:20. | :16:25. | |
election campaign. Did you have any red -- any reservations about using | :16:25. | :16:30. | |
Andy Coulson? Might contact with Andy Coulson showed him to be | :16:30. | :16:34. | |
extremely professional. We were all aware of the issues around the | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
phone hacking story and the circumstances. Did you have | :16:38. | :16:44. | |
reservations? De Prime Minister, the then leader of the opposition, | :16:44. | :16:48. | |
dealt with those reservations by seeking an assurance from Andy | :16:48. | :16:54. | |
Coulson, which he was given... know all of that, I asked you a | :16:54. | :17:00. | |
simple question about you, did you have reservations about using as | :17:00. | :17:05. | |
your cheek spin-doctor someone from Mr Paulson's background? I would | :17:05. | :17:09. | |
have sought the same reassurances that the Prime Minister sought and | :17:09. | :17:13. | |
my understanding is he was given a clear assurances that there was no | :17:13. | :17:19. | |
connection, nothing to come out. Did you have any reservations? | :17:19. | :17:24. | |
I was satisfied by the reassurances the Prime Minister received. I | :17:24. | :17:29. | |
would be buried disappointed if it turns out we were lied to. -- be | :17:29. | :17:35. | |
very disappointed. By 2010 when you took him into government, was it | :17:35. | :17:41. | |
not clearly a mistake to take him into government? I don't think any | :17:41. | :17:51. | |
new evidence... De Clifford drs had been done. As opposed to innuendo, | :17:51. | :17:56. | |
I don't think any new evidence was available. By 2010, you knew that | :17:56. | :18:01. | |
News International had done deals, confidential deals, done in secret, | :18:01. | :18:05. | |
with two other people who had been hacked into on the defence from his | :18:05. | :18:10. | |
paper that no one else had been involved. Surely that should have | :18:10. | :18:15. | |
been a red flag that you needed to move on? Andy Coulson has | :18:15. | :18:19. | |
maintained his innocence throughout. He is entitled to be presumed | :18:19. | :18:24. | |
innocent until found otherwise. We have set up an inquiry which will | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
look into these matters for everybody to see the facts of what | :18:27. | :18:31. | |
was happening when and who knew what, and the Prime Minister has | :18:32. | :18:35. | |
made clear that if it turns out Andy Coulson's assurances were not | :18:35. | :18:40. | |
true, not only does he have no part to play in our politics but he has | :18:40. | :18:47. | |
serious charges to answer. If he has lied to you, to Parliament, | :18:47. | :18:52. | |
about being involved, he is obviously in serious trouble. If he | :18:52. | :18:56. | |
has lied, he goes to jail, you do not need to be Prime Minister to | :18:57. | :19:00. | |
know that. The Prime Minister has been out of the glen to for the | :19:00. | :19:08. | |
last 48 hours, why has there been a silence among Tories to defend him? | :19:08. | :19:12. | |
I have been on your programme twice in the last week, I have been on | :19:13. | :19:19. | |
Newsnight. Baroness Sayeeda Warsi, normally when the party is in | :19:19. | :19:23. | |
trouble the chairman's job is to defend a party, where has she been? | :19:23. | :19:29. | |
As far as I am aware, she is around. Have you seen her? Yes. | :19:30. | :19:38. | |
television? No, in a cabinet meeting. Why isn't she out there | :19:38. | :19:41. | |
defending your beleaguered Prime Minister? Who goes on to which | :19:42. | :19:45. | |
programme to deal with the issues raised is a matter that gets | :19:45. | :19:49. | |
discussed between the party and broadcasters, and, as you know, it | :19:49. | :19:53. | |
depends partly on who the broadcasters asked to have and | :19:53. | :19:58. | |
partly on who the party wants to put up. There have been a number of | :19:58. | :20:03. | |
ministers out. I saw Damian Green on Newsnight last night, one of our | :20:03. | :20:10. | |
backbenchers the night before. not the party chair. We have not | :20:10. | :20:16. | |
seen her at all. We asked her to come on yesterday. You got me a | :20:16. | :20:22. | |
second best. She did not come on. Missing in action, maybe that is | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
the phrase we should use. Tessa Jowell, by the end of June, | :20:26. | :20:31. | |
it was clear that something was rotten in the state of Denmark, | :20:31. | :20:36. | |
that something was rotten about my macrosystem and the Murdochs were | :20:36. | :20:46. | |
:20:46. | :20:53. | ||
at the centre of it. Why did you go to the Committee on July 2nd? | :20:53. | :20:58. | |
Because he was a good friend of mine. Was it a good idea to go to a | :20:58. | :21:02. | |
party like that for people who are accused of running a company that | :21:02. | :21:07. | |
has got in the way of a police investigation? Is it wise to mix | :21:07. | :21:17. | |
:21:17. | :21:17. | ||
with these people? Are I think you stand by your friends. Elizabeth | :21:17. | :21:21. | |
never worked for News Of The World. Elizabeth is a successful | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
entrepreneur in her own right. you talk to James Murdoch? Ola. | :21:25. | :21:32. | |
Rebekah Brooks? I had a green -- a brief conversation with Rebekah | :21:32. | :21:38. | |
Brooks. What did you say? I met lots of my other friends, people I | :21:38. | :21:43. | |
do not necessarily see very often, and it was a lovely party. I was | :21:43. | :21:46. | |
not there for terribly long but I enjoyed going there and certainly | :21:46. | :21:52. | |
would not have declined invitation on the basis that you suggest. | :21:52. | :21:58. | |
James and Elisabeth Murdoch threw a party tonight, would you go? | :21:58. | :22:03. | |
think probably... The chances of entering a party for a long time | :22:03. | :22:10. | |
are remote. -- the chances of them throwing a party. And you never got | :22:10. | :22:14. | |
invited to the party at all because the family did not think you were | :22:14. | :22:20. | |
worth the time. A week ago you said on this programme that they thought | :22:20. | :22:26. | |
of us as left-wing and had no interest in us. It was a lucky get | :22:26. | :22:32. | |
out of jail card for you! I think it is a little unfair. Going to | :22:32. | :22:38. | |
parties is very different from some of the backdoor deals and sucking | :22:38. | :22:43. | |
up to and not taking the action. Earlier we were talking about what | :22:43. | :22:49. | |
we could be doing about it, we needed tougher regulations and | :22:49. | :22:52. | |
frankly were let down by the previous government to did not take | :22:52. | :22:58. | |
the action they should have done. Does any of this, given what we now | :22:58. | :23:01. | |
know about Mr Cameron, who became leader of the opposition saying he | :23:01. | :23:08. | |
would not follow in the Blair, Brown food stops when it came to Mr | :23:08. | :23:14. | |
Murdoch -- footsteps when it came to Mr Murdoch, what is the feeling | :23:14. | :23:18. | |
of the implication of this for the coalition? The first thing is we | :23:18. | :23:23. | |
have to end the back door meetings. We heard of Mr Murdoch being | :23:23. | :23:26. | |
invited through the back door of Number Ten to avoid the | :23:26. | :23:31. | |
photographers yesterday but it was obviously to try to keep the | :23:31. | :23:40. | |
meeting relatively quiet. When you see the Prime Minister, do you go | :23:40. | :23:44. | |
in the front or back door? crucial thing is that we have to | :23:44. | :23:50. | |
stop these backdoor deals. The Prime Minister said he would do | :23:50. | :23:54. | |
that and has published a list of all of us ministers -- all of his | :23:54. | :24:00. | |
meetings. Nick Clegg will be doing the same. For the record, when I | :24:00. | :24:07. | |
went to see the Prime Minister last week, I went through the front door. | :24:07. | :24:15. | |
I think we have to move on. I would rather we didn't, can we just go | :24:15. | :24:21. | |
back... We are even dropping Keith Vaz so that we can move on. | :24:21. | :24:27. | |
Well, forget Keith Vaz, it seems we have! The real killer blow that | :24:27. | :24:33. | |
really caught our eye was the 43- year-old rights of Rupert Murdoch, | :24:33. | :24:41. | |
Wendi Deng. -- wife of Rupert Murdoch. Here is a glimpse of her | :24:41. | :24:51. | |
:24:51. | :24:56. | ||
The News Of The World is less than 1% of our company. We employed | :24:57. | :25:06. | |
:25:07. | :25:14. | ||
53,000 people around the world who I hear you have been doing some | :25:14. | :25:20. | |
research and Wendi Deng? I don't often read this magazine. It is | :25:20. | :25:26. | |
always in your handbag! The Economist is wrapped around it! | :25:26. | :25:32. | |
Thank you, Andrew! Basically, they have done a profile on Wendi Deng | :25:32. | :25:38. | |
and the Murdochs, and she is no trophy wife. She is extremely smart, | :25:38. | :25:44. | |
extremely clever, and extremely protective, it seems, after | :25:44. | :25:50. | |
yesterday's a slap across the face. Not a left hook, as Tom Watson said. | :25:50. | :25:54. | |
Someone who never mixes up their left and right is Nick Robinson. | :25:54. | :26:04. | |
:26:04. | :26:05. | ||
Did you like that segue? It was brilliant. You were there. Tell us | :26:05. | :26:12. | |
more. You said before we came on air that the Prime did hit Mr | :26:12. | :26:18. | |
Murdoch? I went on to the News Channel to describe what had | :26:18. | :26:21. | |
happened without realising none of you who were not in the room could | :26:21. | :26:26. | |
not see it. I was about four feet away from Mr Murdoch, and it was a | :26:27. | :26:33. | |
false circus moment. The whole foam pie was on his face for some time. | :26:33. | :26:39. | |
The Sun tells us it was a custard pie, you told us it was foam. Was | :26:40. | :26:47. | |
the son rank? Who would you believe, Nick Robinson or the son? De DEC | :26:47. | :26:56. | |
Wendi Deng's action? -- did you see? The speed with which she was | :26:56. | :26:59. | |
up was extraordinary, and she shouted when she had done it, I | :26:59. | :27:07. | |
have got him! Did she kick him when he was damned? No. Rupert Murdoch | :27:07. | :27:10. | |
sat completely impassive, I don't know whether it was shock or | :27:10. | :27:18. | |
whether it was an acceptance. It was remarkable, within seconds he | :27:18. | :27:23. | |
was having this foam white off his face, the chairman of the committee | :27:23. | :27:29. | |
said the public had to get out. James Murdoch was very anxious in a | :27:29. | :27:34. | |
way that a son would be of their father, he looked very upset, | :27:34. | :27:38. | |
started to berate the police about why they had not protected his | :27:38. | :27:43. | |
father. I think he used the phrase, this is a circus. In a bad week for | :27:43. | :27:46. | |
the police, the picture of the policemen trotting afterwards was | :27:46. | :27:52. | |
not a great image. It was not clever, was it? The fact that Wendi | :27:52. | :27:56. | |
Deng was able to get up with in a second and deal with it and the | :27:56. | :27:59. | |
police officer had to saunter across the room was not terribly | :27:59. | :28:04. | |
clever. I am sure Parliament does not want the site of witnesses | :28:04. | :28:08. | |
flanked by security guards and police officers, but it seems to | :28:08. | :28:12. | |
make will probably think a bit harder about how you protect people | :28:12. | :28:17. | |
from that sort of attack in the feature. I know the Speaker called | :28:17. | :28:23. | |
in the chairman. You have given him an excuse not to turn up, you | :28:23. | :28:32. | |
cannot guarantee security? You have. It is claimed that someone | :28:32. | :28:35. | |
whispered to James, this is all right, because they thought, in PR | :28:36. | :28:41. | |
terms, thank you very much, this is what we need. They removed some | :28:41. | :28:44. | |
protesters before the session even started so there had been some | :28:44. | :28:51. | |
effort. Though I am surprised, Mr Robinson, that you did not see, | :28:51. | :28:57. | |
being there, this man pull out a plate, pull out the foam! What did | :28:57. | :29:03. | |
you think, he was having his lunch?! Nick Robinson is now in the | :29:03. | :29:11. | |
dock of hindsight! In the dock of hindsight! I plead guilty. Although | :29:11. | :29:16. | |
if I could plead the Murdoch defence, I work for a big | :29:16. | :29:19. | |
organisation and cannot be responsible for everything. Let's | :29:19. | :29:23. | |
go into the dock of fore sight. The Prime Minister will be on his feet | :29:23. | :29:28. | |
in a minute. This is an important statement not just in content but | :29:28. | :29:33. | |
in how it goes down with his own party. That is absolutely right. | :29:33. | :29:37. | |
His party have come to despair that he can pull away from this crisis. | :29:37. | :29:40. | |
They are frustrated that the headlines have been dominated by it | :29:40. | :29:47. | |
for so long, but I think he needs to prove that he will not | :29:47. | :29:52. | |
constantly be dragged back by the past. I think he wants to say, what | :29:52. | :29:57. | |
matters is how we stop this happening again, hence the police | :29:57. | :30:01. | |
inquiry, the judge lead inquiry, whereas the Labour Party, | :30:01. | :30:05. | |
legitimately, one to say, there are a lot of questions about you and | :30:05. | :30:08. | |
your past and why you did not listen to the warnings before and | :30:08. | :30:13. | |
after the election about Andy Coulson and why on them, you let | :30:13. | :30:18. | |
him walk away at a time of his own choosing. That is the tussle, but | :30:18. | :30:23. | |
the point about his party is a good one, they are worried that despite | :30:23. | :30:28. | |
two big efforts to do this, he keeps being sucked back into | :30:28. | :30:32. | |
questions about what he did and why he did what he did with Andy | :30:32. | :30:40. | |
Some people will be saying we are on the brink of a major Eurozone | :30:41. | :30:44. | |
crisis which could well for all our banking system into turmoil and | :30:44. | :30:48. | |
that is why Parliament should not be in summer recess, not because of | :30:48. | :30:56. | |
this hacking scandal which has been obsessed with the media village. | :30:56. | :30:59. | |
This degree of criminality, the Prime Minister has been compromised | :30:59. | :31:04. | |
by the conflict of interest in appointing Andy Coulson. It is | :31:05. | :31:10. | |
profoundly important, but you're absolutely right to that across the | :31:10. | :31:14. | |
Channel, we are seeing European economies in meltdown. We are also | :31:14. | :31:23. | |
seeing the worst recorded famine in Africa. I think that to some extent, | :31:23. | :31:30. | |
the Select Committee hearings yesterday will call a pause in this. | :31:30. | :31:37. | |
Although, many people, and Nick Robinson will know better than us, | :31:37. | :31:42. | |
say that there is more and worse to come. It will still be there in the | :31:42. | :31:46. | |
headlines. Is there a danger that a combination of the police and News | :31:46. | :31:50. | |
International have hijacked our politics? I think politicians have | :31:50. | :31:54. | |
something to answer. We keep talking about the problem with the | :31:54. | :31:57. | |
police and the problem with journalists and it is not all | :31:57. | :32:01. | |
police or all journalists. There is also a problem with politicians | :32:01. | :32:06. | |
which needs to be addressed. Tessa Jowell cannot just have it that we | :32:06. | :32:10. | |
ask questions of the Prime Minister, we need to look back at the track | :32:10. | :32:14. | |
record of her party in government, the failure to take action on | :32:14. | :32:17. | |
numerous occasions, even the most recent one in terms of failure to | :32:17. | :32:20. | |
address the level of fines and punishments for people obtaining | :32:20. | :32:25. | |
illegal information. In the earlier part of the programme, of course, I | :32:25. | :32:30. | |
did ask Tessa Jowell about these matters. I'm trying to look forward. | :32:30. | :32:34. | |
And now you have a Prime Minister compromised by the appointment of | :32:34. | :32:38. | |
his director of communications. thought I was the one that was | :32:38. | :32:47. | |
meant to interrupt people! We have now got a judicial inquiry and | :32:47. | :32:53. | |
within that, another inquiry, ongoing major police investigations | :32:53. | :32:56. | |
involving 70 people, and I'm sure there will be other Select | :32:56. | :33:01. | |
Committee hearings. Is there a danger as a time of economic crisis | :33:02. | :33:06. | |
that this whole issue is hijacking our politics? I do not think it | :33:06. | :33:10. | |
will last much longer. The public appetite for this will fade away. | :33:10. | :33:14. | |
Politicians will go away on a summer break and we will then be | :33:14. | :33:20. | |
hit by a European funding crisis. As Tessa Jowell says, the famine in | :33:20. | :33:26. | |
Ethiopia, those issues will tend to dominate. Then we can get back to | :33:26. | :33:31. | |
getting on with those inquiries and other staff will no doubt emerge | :33:31. | :33:35. | |
which will race off -- resurface elsewhere. I still do not know the | :33:35. | :33:38. | |
answer to this question, when we heard any evidence yesterday that | :33:38. | :33:45. | |
Rebekah Brooks was away on holiday at the time of signing off the | :33:45. | :33:49. | |
Milly Dowler story, who actually signed it? I want to know the | :33:49. | :33:55. | |
answer. That will emerge at some point. Are you confident that this | :33:55. | :33:59. | |
story is going to disappear? I think I will be turning on my TV | :33:59. | :34:03. | |
set during the summer and something else will appear. That is my | :34:03. | :34:09. | |
opinion as well. I think there are many news organisations debating | :34:09. | :34:16. | |
these questions. Remember cash for honours? The difficulty for | :34:16. | :34:19. | |
politicians in Downing Street, Tony Blair had it and David Cameron had | :34:19. | :34:25. | |
it, they're not in control of this level of information. -- the flow | :34:25. | :34:29. | |
of information. Information is coming sometimes from the police, | :34:29. | :34:32. | |
sometimes from News International, sometimes from the lawyers. Just | :34:32. | :34:37. | |
this morning, for example, there is a court case in which the judge has | :34:37. | :34:39. | |
ordered the Mets to release information about the alleged | :34:39. | :34:44. | |
hacking of Jemima Khan and Hugh Grant, another front-page story | :34:44. | :34:50. | |
that the Prime Minister cannot deal with. Of course, they will try to | :34:50. | :34:57. | |
get back to talk about the economy. But they will find it difficult | :34:57. | :35:04. | |
because they will cause some may be -- there may -- there will | :35:04. | :35:07. | |
constantly be questions. We have former Prime Ministers in the dock | :35:07. | :35:12. | |
on oath and so on and so on. What about public appetite? Well that | :35:12. | :35:20. | |
continue? The polls have not shown a huge continued public appetite. | :35:20. | :35:23. | |
News Pollitt -- news organisations respond to the public like | :35:23. | :35:32. | |
politicians. If the media is making a statement about by chucking... -- | :35:32. | :35:40. | |
pie chucking. I do not think we can go to that yet. Let us go and see | :35:40. | :35:50. | |
:35:50. | :35:50. | ||
what the Speaker's policy on pies are. This investigation will be | :35:50. | :35:57. | |
entirely independent of the House authorities. Statement, the Prime | :35:57. | :36:03. | |
Minister. Thank you, Mr Speaker. With permission I would like to | :36:03. | :36:07. | |
make a statement. Over the past two weeks, a torrent of revelations and | :36:07. | :36:12. | |
allegations has engulfed some of this country's most important | :36:12. | :36:16. | |
institutions. It has shaken people's cross in the media and the | :36:16. | :36:19. | |
legality of all they do, in the police and their ability to | :36:19. | :36:24. | |
investigate media malpractice, and yes, in politics and politicians' | :36:24. | :36:29. | |
ability to get to grips with these issues. People desperately want us | :36:29. | :36:33. | |
to put a stop to the illegal practices, to ensure the | :36:33. | :36:36. | |
independence and effectiveness of the police, and to establish a more | :36:37. | :36:40. | |
healthy relationship between politicians and media owners. Above | :36:40. | :36:45. | |
all, they want us to Act on behalf of the victims, people who have | :36:45. | :36:49. | |
suffered dreadfully, including through murder and terrorism, and | :36:49. | :36:55. | |
to have had to relive that agony all over again because of phone | :36:55. | :36:58. | |
hacking. -- and to have had. The public want us to work together and | :36:58. | :37:03. | |
sort the problem out. Until we do so, it is impossible to get back to | :37:03. | :37:06. | |
the issues they care about even more, getting the economy moving, | :37:06. | :37:12. | |
creating jobs, helping with the cost of living, protecting us from | :37:12. | :37:16. | |
terrorism and restoring fairness to our welfare and immigration systems. | :37:16. | :37:21. | |
Let me set out the actions we have taken. We now have a well led | :37:21. | :37:24. | |
police investigation which will examine criminal behaviour by the | :37:24. | :37:28. | |
media and corruption in the police. We have set up a wide ranging and | :37:28. | :37:32. | |
independent judicial inquiry under Lord Justice Levison to establish | :37:32. | :37:37. | |
what went wrong, of why, and what we need to do to ensure that it | :37:37. | :37:43. | |
never happens again. I am the first Prime Minister to publish meetings | :37:43. | :37:48. | |
with media editors, proprietors, senior executives, to bring | :37:48. | :37:50. | |
complete transparency to the relationship between government | :37:51. | :37:55. | |
ministers and the media, stretching right back to the general election. | :37:55. | :38:00. | |
And the House of Commons, by speaking so clearly about its | :38:00. | :38:03. | |
revulsion at the phone hacking allegations, helped to cause of the | :38:03. | :38:09. | |
end of the News Corp bid for the rest of BSkyB. Today, I would like | :38:09. | :38:13. | |
to update the House on the action that we are taking. First on the | :38:13. | :38:18. | |
make-up and remit of the public inquiry. Second, on issues | :38:18. | :38:23. | |
concerning the police service. And third, I will answer at some length | :38:23. | :38:27. | |
all the key questions that have been raised about my role and that | :38:27. | :38:34. | |
of my staff. First, the judicial inquiry and the panel of experts | :38:34. | :38:40. | |
who will assist it. Those experts will be the civil liberties | :38:40. | :38:43. | |
campaigner and director of Liberty Shami Chakrabarti, the former Chief | :38:43. | :38:48. | |
Constable of the West Midlands, Sir Paul Scott Lee, the former chairman | :38:48. | :38:54. | |
of Ofcom, Lord David Curry, a long- serving former political editor of | :38:54. | :38:56. | |
Channel 4 News Elinor Goodman, the former political editor of the | :38:56. | :38:59. | |
Daily Telegraph and former Special Correspondent of the Press | :38:59. | :39:03. | |
Association George Jones and the former chairman of the Financial | :39:03. | :39:10. | |
Times, Sir David Bell. These people have been chosen not only for their | :39:10. | :39:13. | |
expertise in the media, broadcasting, regulation and | :39:13. | :39:16. | |
policing, but for their complete independence from the interested | :39:16. | :39:23. | |
parties. Mr Speaker, I also said last week that the inquiry will | :39:23. | :39:30. | |
proceed in two parts and I set out a draft terms of reference. We have | :39:30. | :39:33. | |
consulted with justice Levison, with the opposition and chairs of | :39:34. | :39:37. | |
relevant Select Committees. I also talked to the family of Milly | :39:37. | :39:45. | |
Dowler Row and the Act of campaign. -- Milly Dowler. -- hacked off | :39:45. | :39:48. | |
campaign. The problem with the relationship between the press and | :39:48. | :39:58. | |
the police call was wider than just that met. We have agreed that the | :39:58. | :40:01. | |
inquiry should consider not just a relationship between press, police | :40:01. | :40:06. | |
and politicians of their individual conduct, too. We have also made it | :40:06. | :40:10. | |
clear that the inquiry should look not just that the press, but other | :40:10. | :40:14. | |
media organisations including broadcasters and social media, if | :40:14. | :40:17. | |
there is any evidence that they have been involved in criminal | :40:17. | :40:20. | |
activities. I am today placing in the library of the House the final | :40:20. | :40:24. | |
terms of reference. Lord Justice Weatherson and the panel will get | :40:24. | :40:28. | |
to work immediately. He will aim to make a report on the first part of | :40:28. | :40:32. | |
the inquiry within 12 months. There should be no doubt that this public | :40:32. | :40:37. | |
inquiry is as robust as possible. It is fully independent and Lord | :40:37. | :40:43. | |
Justice ladism will be able to summon witnesses under oath. -- | :40:43. | :40:46. | |
Lord Justice Levenson. Let me turn to the events we have seen over the | :40:47. | :40:51. | |
past few days at the Met. On Sunday, Sir Paul Stephenson resigned as | :40:51. | :40:54. | |
Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police. I want to thank him for the | :40:54. | :41:00. | |
work he is carried out in policing over many, many years and -- he has | :41:00. | :41:04. | |
carried out. On Monday, John Yates, assistant commissioner, also | :41:04. | :41:09. | |
resigned. By one to express my gratitude for the work he has done | :41:09. | :41:12. | |
in improving a response to terrorism. Given the departure of | :41:12. | :41:16. | |
two such senior officers, the first concern must be to ensure the | :41:16. | :41:19. | |
effective policing of our capital and confidence in that policing is | :41:20. | :41:24. | |
maintained. I have asked the Home Secretary to ensure that the | :41:24. | :41:29. | |
responsibilities of the matter will continue seamlessly. The current | :41:29. | :41:33. | |
deputy commissioner, Tim Godwin, who stood in for Sir Paul | :41:33. | :41:36. | |
Stephenson when he was ill, will shortly do so again. The vital | :41:36. | :41:40. | |
counter-terrorism job carried out by John Yates will be taken on by | :41:40. | :41:45. | |
the highly experienced Cressida Dick. The responsibility of the | :41:45. | :41:49. | |
Deputy Commissioner, of which the House will remember includes the | :41:49. | :41:52. | |
oversight of the investigations into hacking and into the police, | :41:52. | :41:59. | |
operation pleating and so on, will not be done it by someone inside | :41:59. | :42:03. | |
the Met, but instead by Bernard Holden how, who will join | :42:03. | :42:06. | |
temporarily from her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary. We | :42:06. | :42:10. | |
are also looking to speed up the process for selecting and | :42:10. | :42:13. | |
appointing the next commissioner. We cannot hope that a change in | :42:13. | :42:18. | |
personnel at the top of the Met is enough. The simple fact is that all | :42:18. | :42:23. | |
fair raises huge it issues about the ethics and practices of Our | :42:23. | :42:27. | |
police. The vast majority of our police officers are beyond reproach | :42:27. | :42:31. | |
and serve the public with distinction. But police corruption | :42:31. | :42:36. | |
must be rooted out. The inquiry is charged with doing just that. I | :42:36. | :42:42. | |
believe we can and must do more. There are two problems. First, a | :42:42. | :42:45. | |
perception that when problems arise, it is the police investigating the | :42:45. | :42:50. | |
police. Second, a lack of transparency in terms of police | :42:50. | :42:54. | |
contract with the media. We are looking at both. These are the two | :42:54. | :42:57. | |
match point that on secretary dressed in her statement to this | :42:57. | :43:03. | |
House on Monday. -- these are the two points. We are looking to stand | :43:03. | :43:06. | |
back and take a broader look at all culture of policing in this country. | :43:07. | :43:10. | |
At the moment, the police system is to closed. There is only one point | :43:10. | :43:17. | |
of entry into the force. There are too few and arguably, to similar | :43:17. | :43:21. | |
candidates for the top job. Tom Windsor is looking into police | :43:21. | :43:25. | |
Careers and I want to see proposals for bringing in fresh leadership. | :43:25. | :43:30. | |
The Government is bringing in elected police and crime | :43:30. | :43:36. | |
institutions, assuring that there is an elected official holding the | :43:36. | :43:40. | |
local force -- the local force to account. We need to see if we can | :43:40. | :43:44. | |
extend that openness to the operational side, too. Why should | :43:44. | :43:47. | |
all police officers start at the same level? Why should someone with | :43:47. | :43:52. | |
a different but -- different skill sets not be able to join the police | :43:52. | :43:57. | |
source at a different role? -- at a different level? I believe we | :43:57. | :44:01. | |
should ask these questions to get a greater transparency and a stronger | :44:01. | :44:07. | |
corporate governance in Britain's policing. Finally, let me turn to | :44:07. | :44:11. | |
the specific questions that I have been asked in recent days. First, | :44:11. | :44:15. | |
it has been suggested that my chief of staff was behaving wrongly when | :44:15. | :44:20. | |
he did not take up John Yates' offer to be briefed on police | :44:20. | :44:26. | |
investigations around phone hacking. I have said repeatedly about the | :44:26. | :44:30. | |
police investigation that they should pursue the evidence was ever | :44:30. | :44:33. | |
at Leeds and arrest exactly who they wish, and that is exactly what | :44:33. | :44:38. | |
they have done. Number 10 has now published the full e-mail exchange | :44:38. | :44:41. | |
between my chief of staff and John Yates and it shows that my staff | :44:41. | :44:50. | |
behaved entirely properly. Ed Llewellyn's reply to the police | :44:50. | :44:53. | |
made clear that it would not be appropriate to give me or my staff | :44:54. | :45:03. | |
:45:04. | :45:03. | ||
any privileged briefing. The reply that he sent was cleared in advance | :45:04. | :45:09. | |
by my permanent secretary, Jeremy a word. Just imagine if they had done | :45:09. | :45:15. | |
the opposite, if they had asked for acquiesced in receiving privileged | :45:15. | :45:19. | |
information, even if there was no intention to use it. There would | :45:19. | :45:29. | |
:45:29. | :45:33. | ||
To risk any perception that Number Ten was seeking to influence a | :45:33. | :45:36. | |
sensitive police investigation in any way would have been completely | :45:36. | :45:43. | |
wrong. Mr Yates and Sir Paul both backed this in their evidence | :45:43. | :45:48. | |
yesterday. John Yates said, the offer was properly and | :45:48. | :45:52. | |
understandably rejected. The Cabinet Secretary and the chair of | :45:52. | :45:55. | |
the Home Affairs Select Committee have both now backed that judgment, | :45:55. | :46:00. | |
too. Next, there is the question of whether the ministerial code was | :46:00. | :46:05. | |
broken in relation to the BSkyB merger and meetings with News | :46:05. | :46:08. | |
International executives. The Cabinet Secretary has ruled very | :46:08. | :46:12. | |
clearly that the code was not broken, not least because I had | :46:12. | :46:17. | |
asked to be entirely excluded from the decision. Next, I would like to | :46:17. | :46:21. | |
set the record straight on another question that arose yesterday, | :46:21. | :46:25. | |
whether the Conservative Party had also employed Neil Wallis. The | :46:26. | :46:28. | |
Conservative Party chairman has assured that all accounts have been | :46:28. | :46:32. | |
gone through and has confirmed to make that neither Neil Wallis nor | :46:32. | :46:36. | |
his company has ever been employed by or contracted by the | :46:36. | :46:39. | |
Conservative Party, nor has the Conservative Party made payments to | :46:39. | :46:47. | |
either of them. It has been drawn to our attention... It has been | :46:47. | :46:51. | |
drawn to our attention that he may have provided Andy Coulson with | :46:51. | :46:55. | |
informal advice on a voluntary basis before the election. To the | :46:55. | :46:58. | |
best of my knowledge, I did not know anything about this until | :46:58. | :47:03. | |
Sunday night. But as we do with feeling this information, we will | :47:03. | :47:09. | |
be entirely transparent about this issue. -- ASDA with a revealing of | :47:09. | :47:15. | |
this information. Finally, there is the question whether everyone, the | :47:15. | :47:19. | |
police, media, politicians, is taking responsibility in an | :47:19. | :47:23. | |
appropriate manner. I want to redress my own responsibilities | :47:23. | :47:28. | |
very directly, which brings me to my decision to employ Andy Coulson. | :47:28. | :47:32. | |
I have said very clearly that, if it turns out Andy Coulson knew | :47:32. | :47:36. | |
about the hacking at the News Of The World, he will not only have | :47:36. | :47:40. | |
lied to me but to the police, to a select committee, to the Press | :47:40. | :47:43. | |
Complaints Commission, and, of course, perjured himself in a court | :47:43. | :47:48. | |
of law. More to the point, if that comes to pass, he could also expect | :47:48. | :47:53. | |
to face severe criminal charges. I have that old fashioned view about | :47:54. | :48:00. | |
innocent until proven guilty. But if it turns out I have been lied to, | :48:00. | :48:04. | |
that would be a moment for a profound apology, and in that event | :48:04. | :48:09. | |
I could tell you I will not fall short. My responsibilities are for | :48:09. | :48:13. | |
hiring him and for the work he did in Downing Street. On the work he | :48:14. | :48:18. | |
did, I will repeat, perhaps not for the last time, that his work at | :48:18. | :48:21. | |
Downing Street has not been the subject of any serious complaint | :48:21. | :48:26. | |
and, of course, he left months ago. On the decision to hire him, I | :48:27. | :48:33. | |
believe I have answered every question about this. It was my | :48:33. | :48:38. | |
decision, I take responsibility, people will, of course... | :48:38. | :48:43. | |
apologise for interrupting. The house must come to order and here | :48:43. | :48:48. | |
in silence the remainder of the statement. -- and hear. People will | :48:48. | :48:52. | |
of course make judgments about it. Of course I regret and am sorry | :48:52. | :48:58. | |
about the few Rory it has caused. With 20/20 hindsight and all that | :48:58. | :49:01. | |
has followed, I would not have offered him the job and suspect he | :49:01. | :49:05. | |
would not have taken it, but you do not make decisions in hindsight, | :49:05. | :49:11. | |
you make them in the present. You live and you learn and, believe you | :49:11. | :49:18. | |
me, I have learned. Now, I look forward to answering any and all | :49:18. | :49:22. | |
questions about these issues and, following this statement, I will | :49:22. | :49:26. | |
open the debate. But the greatest responsibility I have is to clear | :49:26. | :49:31. | |
up this mess, so let me finish by saying this: there are accusations | :49:31. | :49:34. | |
of criminal behaviour by parts of the press and potentially the | :49:34. | :49:38. | |
police where the most proud -- most rapid and decisive action is | :49:38. | :49:44. | |
required. There are issues with media groups and owners where | :49:44. | :49:48. | |
Labour and Conservative have to make a fresh start. There is the | :49:48. | :49:52. | |
history of missed warnings, select committee report, Information | :49:52. | :49:56. | |
Commissioner reports, missed by the last government and missed by the | :49:56. | :50:01. | |
official opposition, too. What the public expects is not petty | :50:01. | :50:09. | |
political point scoring... What they want, what they deserve, his | :50:09. | :50:12. | |
concerted action to rise to the level of events and pledged to work | :50:12. | :50:17. | |
together to sort this issue out once and for all, and it is in that | :50:17. | :50:21. | |
spirit that I commend this statement to the house. Mr Ed | :50:21. | :50:31. | |
:50:31. | :50:31. | ||
Miliband. Can I start by thanking the Prime Minister, Mr Speaker, for | :50:31. | :50:36. | |
his statement. Recalling Parliament was the right thing to do because | :50:36. | :50:40. | |
we building trust in the press, police and politics is essential | :50:40. | :50:45. | |
for our society. The most powerful institutions in the land must show | :50:45. | :50:50. | |
the responsibility we expect from everybody else. That is why the | :50:50. | :50:53. | |
country wants answers from those involved in the crisis so that | :50:53. | :50:57. | |
those responsible can be held to account and so we, as a country, | :50:57. | :51:02. | |
can look forward to address all the issues the Prime Minister mentioned | :51:02. | :51:06. | |
in his statement. That is why I welcome Lord Teverson's inquiry and | :51:06. | :51:10. | |
the announcement of the terms of reference and indeed the panel | :51:10. | :51:13. | |
members chosen by the Prime Minister for that purpose. It is | :51:13. | :51:20. | |
why I welcome the Prime Minister's agreement with us about the need | :51:20. | :51:24. | |
for the Press Complaints Commission to be replaced. It is why I welcome | :51:24. | :51:29. | |
the apology from Rupert Murdoch and the withdrawal of the BSkyB bid, | :51:29. | :51:32. | |
and it is why every respect the decision of Sir Paul Stephenson to | :51:32. | :51:35. | |
stand down so that going forward the leadership of the Met Police | :51:35. | :51:40. | |
can focus on the vital work that is necessary. So we are beginning to | :51:40. | :51:44. | |
see answers given and responsibility taken, and that is | :51:44. | :51:49. | |
right. But the Prime Minister knows that he must do the same if the | :51:49. | :51:59. | |
country is to move forward. The Prime Minister, I have a number of | :51:59. | :52:02. | |
questions for the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister said in his | :52:02. | :52:07. | |
statement... Order, I said a few moments ago that the remainder of | :52:07. | :52:12. | |
the Prime Minister's statement should be heard in silence. Order! | :52:12. | :52:18. | |
I say the same two members who are now heckling. Think of what the | :52:18. | :52:25. | |
public thinks of our behaviour. Order! And stop it without delay. | :52:25. | :52:31. | |
Mr Ed Miliband. Mr Speaker, let me start with BSkyB. The Prime | :52:31. | :52:34. | |
Minister said in his statement something he said on a number of | :52:34. | :52:37. | |
occasions, that he was excluded from the formal decision-making | :52:37. | :52:41. | |
process. With respect, that does not answer the questions he has | :52:41. | :52:47. | |
been asked. Last Friday he revealed that since taking office he had met | :52:47. | :52:50. | |
representatives of News International or News Corp, | :52:50. | :52:54. | |
including Rebekah Brooks and James Murdoch, on the 26 separate | :52:54. | :52:59. | |
occasions. So the first question I have for the Prime Minister is | :52:59. | :53:03. | |
whether he can assure the House that the BSkyB bid was not raised | :53:03. | :53:08. | |
in any of those meetings or phone calls with those organisations, and | :53:08. | :53:15. | |
whether he can also say, whether at any time he discussed the bid with | :53:15. | :53:20. | |
the culture secretary or any of his officials discussed at the bid with | :53:20. | :53:24. | |
the Culture Secretary? Let me turn to Andy Coulson. 10 days ago the | :53:24. | :53:28. | |
Prime Minister said about his decision to employ Andy Coulson, I | :53:28. | :53:31. | |
was not given any specific information that would lead me to | :53:31. | :53:36. | |
change my mind. Mr Speaker, the country has a right to expect that | :53:36. | :53:41. | |
the Prime Minister would have made every effort to uncover the | :53:41. | :53:46. | |
information about Andy Coulson, to protect himself and his office. Yet | :53:46. | :53:50. | |
the pattern of events suggest the opposite, that the Prime Minister | :53:50. | :53:57. | |
and those around him made every effort not to hear the facts about | :53:57. | :54:02. | |
Mr Coulson. In the last week, we have become aware of five | :54:02. | :54:05. | |
opportunities for the Prime Minister or his staff to have acted | :54:06. | :54:09. | |
on specific information that would surely have led him to change his | :54:09. | :54:15. | |
mind about Mr Coulson. All of them were declined. His chief of staff, | :54:15. | :54:20. | |
Ed Llewellyn, was told in February, 2010, that Mr Coulson had hired a | :54:20. | :54:24. | |
convicted criminal to work at the News Of The World who was accused | :54:24. | :54:28. | |
of making payments to police on behalf of the newspaper. Even | :54:28. | :54:32. | |
Rebekah Brooks said yesterday that this decision was extraordinary, | :54:32. | :54:36. | |
yet the Prime Minister's chief of staff apparently did nothing with | :54:36. | :54:41. | |
the information. In May, 2010, the Deputy Prime Minister warned the | :54:41. | :54:45. | |
Prime Minister about bringing Mr Coulson into Downing Street. He did | :54:45. | :54:52. | |
nothing. On September 1st, 2010, the New York Times published an | :54:52. | :54:55. | |
investigation quoting multiple sources saying Mr Coulson knew | :54:55. | :55:01. | |
about hacking which was rife at the News Of The World. We now know from | :55:01. | :55:05. | |
John Yates that article was enough to lead the police to reopen their | :55:06. | :55:11. | |
inquiries and it led to Operation Weeting. We also know now it | :55:11. | :55:14. | |
triggered the termination of the Metropolitan Police's contract with | :55:14. | :55:19. | |
Neil Wallis, Mr Coulson's former deputy at the News Of The World, | :55:19. | :55:23. | |
and it led to the offer by Mr Yates to Ed Llewellyn for the Prime | :55:23. | :55:26. | |
Minister to be breached. The Cabinet Secretary has said it was | :55:26. | :55:31. | |
right the offer was not taken up, but the question is why? Because it | :55:31. | :55:39. | |
would seem... Because the Prime Minister was compromised by his | :55:39. | :55:44. | |
relationship with Mr Coulson, and therefore could not be told | :55:44. | :55:48. | |
anything at all about an investigation concerning a member | :55:48. | :55:54. | |
of his own staff. He was hamstrung by a conflict of interest. But, Mr | :55:54. | :55:59. | |
Speaker, the Prime Minister should not have had to rely on briefings | :55:59. | :56:04. | |
from his cheek of staff. Here was a major investigation published by a | :56:04. | :56:09. | |
leading global newspaper about the Prime Minister's director of | :56:09. | :56:14. | |
communication. Mr Speaker, the Met fired Mr Wallace even though he was | :56:14. | :56:18. | |
not mentioned in the article, because of the association's he had | :56:18. | :56:23. | |
with Mr Coulson and the publication of the article. And what did the | :56:23. | :56:28. | |
Prime Minister do? He did nothing. Mr Speaker, given the New York | :56:29. | :56:33. | |
Times Book of evidence, the public will rightly have expected very | :56:33. | :56:37. | |
loud alarm bells to ring in the Prime Minister's mind, yet | :56:37. | :56:42. | |
apparently he did nothing. Then in October the Prime Minister's chief | :56:42. | :56:45. | |
of staff was approached again by the Guardian about the serious | :56:45. | :56:50. | |
evidence they had about Mr Coulson's behaviour. Once more, | :56:50. | :56:56. | |
nothing was done. Mr Speaker, this cannot be put down to gross | :56:56. | :57:00. | |
incompetence. It was a deliberate attempt to hide from the fact about | :57:00. | :57:10. | |
:57:10. | :57:14. | ||
Mr Coulson. Order! Members are shouting out should not be doing so, | :57:14. | :57:18. | |
they must calm themselves, keep on an even keel, it is better for | :57:18. | :57:23. | |
their health and the house. Mr Ed Miliband. The Prime Minister, Mr | :57:23. | :57:28. | |
Speaker, was caught in a tragic conflict of loyalty between the | :57:28. | :57:32. | |
standards and integrity that people should expect of him and his staff | :57:32. | :57:38. | |
and his personal allegiance to Mr Coulson. He made the wrong choice. | :57:38. | :57:44. | |
He chose to stick with Mr Coulson. So, Mr Speaker, my second question | :57:44. | :57:49. | |
is, can he now explain why he failed to act on clear information, | :57:49. | :57:54. | |
and why those around him build a wall of silence between the facts | :57:54. | :57:59. | |
and the Prime Minister? The Prime Minister's conflict of interests | :57:59. | :58:02. | |
had a real effect. The Metropolitan Police Commissioner resigned on | :58:02. | :58:07. | |
Sunday. The Prime Minister did not talk about the reasons for his | :58:07. | :58:12. | |
regulation but the house must talk about it. -- for his resignation. | :58:12. | :58:16. | |
Sir Paul Stephenson was trapped between a Home Secretary angry at | :58:16. | :58:21. | |
not being told about the hiring of Mr Coulson's Deputy Neil Wallis and | :58:21. | :58:26. | |
Sir Paul's belief that, in his own words, doing so would have | :58:26. | :58:30. | |
compromised the Prime Minister, compromised him because of Mr | :58:30. | :58:35. | |
Coulson. Why did Sir Paul think that? Because his own deputy, John | :58:35. | :58:40. | |
Yates, had been told by the Prime Minister's chief of staff that the | :58:40. | :58:44. | |
Prime Minister should be told nothing. So, Mr Speaker, this | :58:44. | :58:49. | |
catastrophic error of judgment, hiring Andy Coulson, hanging on for | :58:49. | :58:53. | |
him too long, directly contributed to the position Sir Paul found | :58:53. | :58:58. | |
himself in and his decision to resign. My third question, Mr | :58:58. | :59:02. | |
Speaker, is does the Prime Minister accept that his conflict of | :59:02. | :59:07. | |
interest for the Metropolitan -- put the Metropolitan Police | :59:07. | :59:10. | |
Commissioner in an impossible position? Three questions are about | :59:11. | :59:16. | |
BSkyB, warnings about Mr Coulson that were consistently ignored, and | :59:16. | :59:18. | |
about the Met Police Commissioner. These and many other questions will | :59:18. | :59:22. | |
have to be answered by the Prime Minister over the coming months. | :59:22. | :59:29. | |
But there is one other question which matters now. He says that in | :59:29. | :59:34. | |
hindsight he made a mistake by hiring Mr Coulson. He says that if | :59:34. | :59:39. | |
Mr Coulson lied to him, he would apologise. Mr Speaker, that is not | :59:40. | :59:49. | |
:59:50. | :59:52. | ||
good enough. It is not about hindsight, Mr Speaker. It is not | :59:52. | :59:55. | |
about whether Mr Coulson or lied to him. It is about all of the | :59:55. | :00:00. | |
information and warnings that the Prime Minister ignored. He was | :00:00. | :00:06. | |
warned, and he preferred to ignore the warnings. So that the country | :00:06. | :00:13. | |
can have the leadership we need, why doesn't he do more than give a | :00:13. | :00:18. | |
half apology and provide the full apology now for hiring Mr Coulson | :00:19. | :00:27. | |
and bringing him into the heart of What I would say to the honourable | :00:27. | :00:31. | |
gentleman is, stop hunting conspiracy theories and start | :00:31. | :00:36. | |
rising to events. Most of that was a tissue of... I will try to answer | :00:36. | :00:41. | |
every point, but let me first thank him for what he said about | :00:41. | :00:45. | |
recalling Parliament and about Lord Levison. Let the thank him for what | :00:45. | :00:51. | |
he said about the panel. -- let me thank him. On most of the other | :00:51. | :00:54. | |
questions, I feel he wrote to the questions before he heard my | :00:54. | :01:04. | |
statement. He asks about the issue of BSkyB. The Cabinet Secretary has | :01:04. | :01:10. | |
said there was no breach of the ministerial code. You heard the | :01:11. | :01:14. | |
evidence of Rebekah Brooks yesterday saying there was not one | :01:15. | :01:19. | |
single and appropriate conversation. Where comes to setting up meetings | :01:19. | :01:25. | |
with News Corporation, I have set out every single meeting since last | :01:25. | :01:28. | |
session. The honourable gentleman published a list this morning but | :01:28. | :01:34. | |
it does not go back to the last election. Indeed, when are we going | :01:34. | :01:43. | |
to see the transparency from Tony Blair and from Gordon Brown. --? | :01:43. | :01:53. | |
:01:53. | :01:55. | ||
Second, his questions about Andy Coulson. The houses getting over- | :01:55. | :02:05. | |
:02:05. | :02:06. | ||
excited again. I am glad it has now calmed down. Let me just remind him | :02:06. | :02:10. | |
of this point. No one has raised a single question about Andy | :02:10. | :02:15. | |
Coulson's conduct at Number Ten. There is only today one party | :02:15. | :02:24. | |
leader with a News International executive sitting in his office. | :02:24. | :02:29. | |
The questions he raises about my chief-of-staff, Ed Llewellyn. Is he | :02:29. | :02:34. | |
honestly saying that when it comes to this issue of the proposed | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
meeting with John Yates, is the Leader of the Opposition suggesting | :02:37. | :02:40. | |
that he knows better than the chairman of the Home Affairs Select | :02:40. | :02:44. | |
Committee, than the Cabinet Secretary, than John Yates, Sir | :02:44. | :02:47. | |
Paul Stephenson and all these people, including Jeremy Heywood, | :02:47. | :02:52. | |
who worked diligently for Tony Blair and Gordon Brown? Is the same | :02:52. | :02:56. | |
all of those people are wrong and he is right? I think that shows a | :02:56. | :03:03. | |
staggering lack of judgment. Let me answer the question about Sir | :03:03. | :03:08. | |
Paul's resignation. I know it is inconvenient for the right | :03:08. | :03:11. | |
honourable gentleman, but Sir Paul Stephenson set out the reasons for | :03:11. | :03:14. | |
his resignation yesterday in detailed evidence and explained how | :03:14. | :03:18. | |
the situation was so different to the situation in Number Ten. Most | :03:18. | :03:22. | |
of the questions he asked I had already answered. The role of the | :03:22. | :03:26. | |
chief of staff, answered, the parallels with the Metropolitan | :03:26. | :03:30. | |
Police, answered, the role of Mr Wallis, answered. Let us be clear | :03:30. | :03:34. | |
about what we heard yesterday, Rupert Murdoch said "The politician | :03:34. | :03:42. | |
I was closest to was Gordon Brown as Chancellor." Let us just | :03:42. | :03:49. | |
remember, who was the adviser when Gordon Brown was the Chancellor? | :03:49. | :03:55. | |
STUDIO: Were going to leave proceedings for a moment. -- we are | :03:55. | :04:01. | |
going. We have heard comments from the Prime Minister and the Leader | :04:01. | :04:04. | |
of the Opposition. We will bring you more of these exchanges between | :04:04. | :04:08. | |
backbenchers on both sides of the House and the Prime Minister. Let | :04:08. | :04:13. | |
us take stock of where we are. The Prime Minister announced the | :04:13. | :04:20. | |
composition of the Levison judicial inquiry into the media, the police | :04:20. | :04:26. | |
and politics. Three journalists, which may raise an eyebrow in some | :04:26. | :04:31. | |
quarters. To many, some may think, but also a former Ofcom director, a | :04:31. | :04:36. | |
former police chief, and Shami Chakrabarti, the Liberty director. | :04:36. | :04:42. | |
It is a panel of six plus the judge himself. Interesting that the Prime | :04:42. | :04:45. | |
Minister announced that the inquiry will be widened, not just a | :04:45. | :04:49. | |
relationship between police, press and politicians, but their | :04:49. | :04:53. | |
individual conduct, too. It looks like broadcasters and social media | :04:53. | :04:57. | |
are going to be included as well, which will make it a very broad | :04:57. | :05:06. | |
inquiry. Perhaps quite a long sitting. Before I get the reaction, | :05:06. | :05:11. | |
a couple of e-mails. Yes, we have had e-mails to the | :05:11. | :05:16. | |
initial statement from David Cameron. This has come from | :05:16. | :05:20. | |
Bernard's in Worcestershire. "David Cameron is trying to apportion all | :05:20. | :05:24. | |
the blame on to the police and trying to use this as an excuse to | :05:24. | :05:28. | |
change the way people are recruited into the police. This is not just | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
about alleged corruption, it is about corrupt relationships between | :05:32. | :05:39. | |
the media and the politicians." "Calls and lied to him, that excuse | :05:39. | :05:47. | |
is very pathetic. -- that Andy Coulson lied to him." This is from | :05:47. | :05:51. | |
a man in Manchester. "Once again, we get politicians buying time in | :05:51. | :05:56. | |
the hope that after the recess, it will have blown over." "In the | :05:56. | :06:03. | |
meantime, bankers receive �14 billion in bonuses." No-name on | :06:03. | :06:08. | |
this one. "Labour are intent on raising minor issues when the issue | :06:08. | :06:14. | |
of Eurozone crisis looms ever larger." And this from David in | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
Bury St Edmunds: "People do not want to see Labour politicians | :06:18. | :06:24. | |
trying to score party political points, it trivialises it." The | :06:24. | :06:27. | |
Prime Minister has come as close as you can get to saying "In | :06:27. | :06:30. | |
retrospect, it was a mistake to higher Andy Coulson. | :06:30. | :06:37. | |
" He is saying that if he had foreseen what was going to happen, | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
he would not have offered him the job. I'm sure he is right in saying | :06:41. | :06:45. | |
that Andy Coulson would not have wanted to take the job. | :06:45. | :06:49. | |
retrospect, the Prime Minister is saying this. The Prime Minister is | :06:49. | :06:54. | |
saying now, in respect, it was a mistake. It was a judgment that he | :06:54. | :06:57. | |
made at the time as he has been upfront about saying it was his | :06:57. | :07:02. | |
decision, that he takes responsibility for. He sought | :07:02. | :07:06. | |
assurances as he was given them. He has said to us that if it turns out | :07:06. | :07:12. | |
that those assurances were lies, then he will all an apology and he | :07:12. | :07:19. | |
will deliver it. It looks like it was a mistake. We do not know of. | :07:19. | :07:22. | |
That is will the Prime Minister has said and he has never gone this far | :07:22. | :07:26. | |
before. He also said he believes in the presumption of innocence until | :07:26. | :07:31. | |
guilt is proven. I think we have to be careful. I understand that, but | :07:31. | :07:36. | |
I was not talking about guilt or innocence. Leader of the Opposition | :07:36. | :07:39. | |
document of a number of occasions, warnings from Mr Clegg and the New | :07:39. | :07:46. | |
York Times report, Mr Yates himself, when evidence was growing that it | :07:46. | :07:51. | |
had been a mistake to hire Mr Coulson and yet the Prime Minister | :07:51. | :07:58. | |
ignored them. Why? The Nick Clegg example. He has said himself that | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
he brought no evidence for a new information, he simply expressed a | :08:01. | :08:06. | |
view that he was uncomfortable with the decision to hire Andy Coulson. | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
That is fair enough. But what Ed Miliband is trying to do this | :08:10. | :08:16. | |
morning, instead of rising to the occasion and expressing a wish to | :08:16. | :08:24. | |
work together to sort this out, and he is inviting people to look at | :08:24. | :08:32. | |
issues with the benefit of Tyneside -- Heinz state, reinterpreting | :08:32. | :08:36. | |
things with the benefit of what we now know, in a way that is | :08:36. | :08:41. | |
completely inappropriate. From the evidence I have seen, I think the | :08:41. | :08:46. | |
information, or tittle tattle brought to Downing Street and to | :08:46. | :08:53. | |
Peace People in Mr Cameron's staff, was dealt with appropriately. It | :08:53. | :08:56. | |
would be wrong for him to have had a private briefing with John Yates, | :08:56. | :09:01. | |
as Sir: All -- Sir Gus O'Donnell and Keith Vaz have acknowledged. It | :09:01. | :09:05. | |
seems to me that Ed Miliband is clutching at straws trying to | :09:05. | :09:15. | |
:09:15. | :09:15. | ||
reinterpret the stuff of. You think incredible investigative reporting | :09:15. | :09:19. | |
of the New York Times in September and the Guardian in October was | :09:19. | :09:24. | |
tittle-tattle? They were people of... You call them tittle-tattle. | :09:24. | :09:30. | |
Some of what was brought to David Cameron's staff... You said the New | :09:30. | :09:38. | |
York Times. I did not. It is easy from where we sit right now, with a | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
picture of wrong doing emerging, to put these in context, begging the | :09:42. | :09:47. | |
question, why would they not acted upon? At the time, they were | :09:47. | :09:53. | |
isolated of -- isolated piece of journalistic work, of which sat in | :09:53. | :09:55. | |
confirmation of the fact that the investigation was completed. | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
now we know what the police were saying that. With the best of that | :09:59. | :10:07. | |
of hindsight. -- with the benefit of hindsight. Tessa Jowell, four | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
questions there to the Prime Minister. In the end, demanding a | :10:11. | :10:15. | |
full apology for hiring Mr Coulson. In the grand scheme of things, you | :10:15. | :10:18. | |
think anyone outside the Westminster village cares whether | :10:18. | :10:24. | |
he gives a full apology are not? Whether we're talking to ourselves | :10:24. | :10:28. | |
or to the contrary, I'm aware of this question. He said it was a | :10:28. | :10:36. | |
mistake. By have had more e-mails about this and the BSkyB bid that I | :10:36. | :10:42. | |
have had since fox-hunting 13 years ago. -- than I have had. I think we | :10:42. | :10:47. | |
could have a much broader discussion about that. This comes | :10:47. | :10:53. | |
back to not that the Prime Minister disregarded tittle-tattle and idle | :10:53. | :10:57. | |
gossip. There were four or five serious representations to | :10:57. | :11:02. | |
challenge his judgment about taking Andy Coulson into the heart of | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
Downing Street. I understand that. On the leader made these points, | :11:06. | :11:15. | |
but in the grand scheme of things, does a full apology...? Everybody, | :11:15. | :11:17. | |
everybody from the Prime Minister down is saying yeah, it was a | :11:17. | :11:23. | |
mistake. For people-watching today, who may be worried about their jobs | :11:23. | :11:29. | |
and prices rising and living standards, whether or not is a full | :11:29. | :11:35. | |
apology, does it matter? There has to be a moment of absolutely | :11:35. | :11:42. | |
unqualified apology from which the inquiry can then take over. I | :11:42. | :11:45. | |
absolutely accept all the strictures about people being in | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
this until proven guilty. We're not even talking about that, we are | :11:49. | :11:53. | |
simply talking about whether he was the right man for the job. Whether | :11:53. | :11:57. | |
he is guilty of criminality is a different issue. Let me ask you, | :11:57. | :12:04. | |
who among us and permissions -- in positions of responsibility has not | :12:04. | :12:10. | |
made a wrong appointment? We all have. So? And if you make a wrong | :12:10. | :12:15. | |
appointment, you warm up to the fact that you made the wrong | :12:15. | :12:20. | |
appointment. The Prime Minister has been clear, he accepts | :12:20. | :12:26. | |
responsibility for the apartment. Here, you had warnings that could | :12:26. | :12:34. | |
not have been clearer. -- for the appointment. And he made a mistake. | :12:34. | :12:39. | |
Who among us has not made a mistake? But I think, Andrew, it is | :12:39. | :12:44. | |
a question of the scale of the mistake and what we now see is the | :12:44. | :12:48. | |
Prime Minister constraints by the conflict of interest that Andy | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
Coulson began. One of the viewer has suggested that we should make a | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
deal but when Gordon Brown apologises for selling the gold | :12:55. | :13:02. | |
reserves when they were $300 an ounce, and his is now 1600, and Mr | :13:02. | :13:05. | |
Cameron can apologise for Mr Coulson. I think that is a good | :13:05. | :13:15. | |
deal. There is not a politician of a senior level he does not -- who | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
has not done things for which they should apologise, but let's not | :13:19. | :13:24. | |
lose focus on this specific issue in relation to the Prime Minister's | :13:24. | :13:33. | |
judgement. Do you believe it important that the Prime Minister | :13:33. | :13:39. | |
issues a full apology? No. I do not understand why we're so obsessed | :13:39. | :13:43. | |
with this particular issue. But Prime Minister was given advice by | :13:43. | :13:48. | |
Nick Clegg and others that this was not an advisable Parliament. Why | :13:48. | :13:51. | |
did they give that advice? Not because they knew of any criminal | :13:51. | :13:54. | |
wrongdoing or that he was not suitable for the job, it was about | :13:55. | :14:00. | |
the impression it would create. That was sorely it. So far, if he | :14:00. | :14:04. | |
is still innocent until proven guilty, we see that it made an even | :14:04. | :14:09. | |
worse in question -- and even worse impression than we might have | :14:09. | :14:12. | |
expected. It is an error of judgment but it is not the crucial | :14:12. | :14:16. | |
issue. I think we had a powerful statement from the Prime Minister | :14:16. | :14:21. | |
giving us details of the inquiry and extending and detailing the | :14:21. | :14:26. | |
remit of that inquiry. I think the section to broadcasting is a huge | :14:26. | :14:29. | |
mistake. Telling us what Mauresmo to be done about the concerns of | :14:30. | :14:33. | |
the British people, which is corruption in the police are | :14:33. | :14:38. | |
concerned about a Lee Bowyer committee by the press. Telling us | :14:38. | :14:43. | |
what more is to be done. Given our previous discussion, with an eye on | :14:43. | :14:48. | |
the back of his head to his own backbenches, the Prime Minister | :14:48. | :14:54. | |
wanted to appear decisive and in control. And there is another | :14:54. | :14:59. | |
crucial thing. He wanted to appear like he got it about Andy Coulson. | :14:59. | :15:02. | |
He was being brought down every time he tried to talk about an | :15:02. | :15:07. | |
inquiry or the police or the press or even politicians pay in general. | :15:07. | :15:11. | |
He was being dragged back to that decision about Andy Coulson. Taking | :15:11. | :15:14. | |
what would have been a big step to take about someone he still | :15:14. | :15:18. | |
describes as a friend and admits that he met at Chequers after his | :15:18. | :15:23. | |
resignation, he has done it for political reasons and he has said | :15:23. | :15:28. | |
with 2020 hindsight, he wished he had not appointed Mr Coulson. You | :15:28. | :15:34. | |
live and learn was his Murrell phrase, believe me I have learnt. - | :15:34. | :15:44. | |
:15:44. | :15:45. | ||
- memorable phase -- memorable He says people will make judgments | :15:45. | :15:49. | |
about it and of course I regret and am sorry for the furore it has | :15:49. | :15:53. | |
caused, which is as close as anything to say he regrets it. | :15:54. | :15:58. | |
Ed Miliband is doing is this, making an investment for the future | :15:58. | :16:01. | |
for the reasons we said, this is not the end of the matter, Mr | :16:01. | :16:06. | |
Coulson will or will not be charged, will or will not face court action, | :16:06. | :16:11. | |
orders, too. Ed Miliband is trying to lodge in the public's mind that | :16:11. | :16:16. | |
there was what he regards as a catastrophic error of judgment. He | :16:16. | :16:22. | |
is also trying to say this is the Prime Minister -- the sort of Prime | :16:22. | :16:24. | |
Minister who is deaf to criticism, that when people say, you are | :16:24. | :16:29. | |
making a mistake, he does not listen. I would be surprised if | :16:29. | :16:32. | |
that is not be issued next week when the economic figures come out | :16:32. | :16:35. | |
saying growth is not great in this country and he will again say Mr | :16:35. | :16:39. | |
Cameron is the sort of man who does not listen to the warnings he is | :16:39. | :16:43. | |
given. I think this is an investment by the Labour Party and | :16:43. | :16:48. | |
a theme about the Prime Minister put it is a reflection that | :16:48. | :16:52. | |
politically I felt this story, currently, isn't going very far, | :16:52. | :16:56. | |
that there was not much debate about the inquiry or police. If we | :16:56. | :17:00. | |
look back in 10 years, there is one thing we have not discussed at all, | :17:00. | :17:04. | |
which may be the most significant. The Prime Minister signalled he | :17:04. | :17:08. | |
wants to smash the way the police force is currently run. He wants to | :17:08. | :17:12. | |
bring in chief officers from abroad, bring in officers directly rather | :17:13. | :17:16. | |
than recruiting from the ground. In other words, he thinks the culture | :17:16. | :17:21. | |
of the police force in Britain is wrong and needs, and I don't use | :17:21. | :17:26. | |
the word lightly, to be smashed. And he is even bringing in the two | :17:26. | :17:30. | |
net investigations currently going on, one into the hacking scandal | :17:30. | :17:35. | |
and the other into corruption in the police, he is bringing in the | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
former head of the Liverpool Merseyside police to be who they | :17:39. | :17:43. | |
will report to and not a policeman in the Met Police, the implication | :17:43. | :17:51. | |
is that he is not sure he can trust the matter. -- trust them at police. | :17:51. | :17:59. | |
What do you make of the composition of the judicial inquiry? I think it | :17:59. | :18:05. | |
is a very distinguished inquiry. All of us know a number of the | :18:05. | :18:11. | |
members of it. Are there too many journalists? Three out of the six. | :18:11. | :18:16. | |
Eleanor Goodman, Channel 4 political editor formally, George | :18:16. | :18:20. | |
Jones, former Daily Telegraph political editor, was a journalist | :18:20. | :18:24. | |
of mine at the Sunday Times, David Bowie, former Financial Times | :18:24. | :18:30. | |
journalist. I think they are all regarded right across the spectrum | :18:30. | :18:36. | |
as journalists of great distinction and independence who believe in the | :18:36. | :18:46. | |
highest values. So you don't think the public will think, we have | :18:46. | :18:49. | |
already criticised the PCC for being journalists investigating | :18:49. | :18:55. | |
journalists, there are too many? Are I think the hearings will sit | :18:55. | :19:02. | |
in public, went they? I think you have always got to think about how | :19:02. | :19:07. | |
the public are engaged and a continuing basis, rather than in | :19:07. | :19:14. | |
inquiry like this disappearing into a room in White Wolf -- in | :19:14. | :19:18. | |
Whitehall behind closed doors. But that depends on the public's | :19:18. | :19:22. | |
continuing appetite. They will be calling the Murdoch's again. They | :19:22. | :19:28. | |
will be calling Nick Robinson. knows! I think there will be a | :19:28. | :19:33. | |
different criticism made, which is they are political journalists. I | :19:33. | :19:37. | |
think the people who produce tabloid newspapers who say it is a | :19:37. | :19:40. | |
competitive market and they are fighting to retain successful | :19:40. | :19:44. | |
businesses will say people like me and them do not get the things you | :19:44. | :19:49. | |
have to do in order to get tabloid stories. I am not dogear that | :19:49. | :19:54. | |
criminality, of course, but that you live in the closed world of | :19:54. | :19:57. | |
chatting to not friends who are politicians in context and I would | :19:57. | :20:02. | |
not be surprised if Paul Baker who runs the Daily Mail will say, who | :20:02. | :20:10. | |
gets what it takes to produce a tabloid? Let me ask you about this | :20:10. | :20:13. | |
broadening of the rematch for broadcasters and social media. | :20:13. | :20:20. | |
Broadcasters you can kind of understand, social media seems to | :20:20. | :20:25. | |
me to be as long as a piece of string? What happened, as I | :20:25. | :20:30. | |
understand it, if somebody had the bright idea of extending the remit, | :20:30. | :20:34. | |
produced an early day motion and thrust it in under the noses of | :20:34. | :20:37. | |
select committee chairs who signed it and I told to a couple is said, | :20:37. | :20:43. | |
I am not sure why I did that. I think it is a big, big mistake | :20:43. | :20:46. | |
because the broadcasting regulation is very different from the press | :20:46. | :20:51. | |
regulation. I think it is much tougher already, there are no real | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
concerns about issues to do with who owns the media, we need to sort | :20:55. | :20:59. | |
that out, and once you get into social media we will be bogged down | :20:59. | :21:03. | |
the years. But the great thing about having so many journalists, | :21:03. | :21:07. | |
and if I, on the earlier point, is that all three are good at asking | :21:07. | :21:12. | |
tough questions, and that is what a thing, above all, it is not just | :21:12. | :21:16. | |
their experience within the media that their ability to ask the right | :21:16. | :21:21. | |
questions cricket. The reason I suspect broadcasting is included is | :21:21. | :21:24. | |
that the distinction between broadcasting and print is less and | :21:24. | :21:34. | |
less need -- less meaningful. And too has his -- Andrew has his iPad | :21:34. | :21:40. | |
there. There are long-term questions about the business and I | :21:40. | :21:46. | |
would say it is hard to make the distinction that is currently made. | :21:47. | :21:54. | |
We will not have any newspapers left by 20 -- 2020! It is a vast, | :21:54. | :21:59. | |
vast topic. We are going to say goodbye to our panel this morning, | :21:59. | :22:05. | |
we thank you for being with us on another interesting morning. | :22:05. | :22:09. | |
One extra thing that was announced just before the statement, a | :22:09. | :22:14. | |
parliamentary investigation has been launched by the tend of a man | :22:14. | :22:17. | |
to attack at Rupert Murdoch with shaving foam yesterday. He will | :22:17. | :22:20. | |
appear before magistrates court but they will have a parliamentary | :22:20. | :22:25. | |
investigation tip. We have been keeping an eye on | :22:25. | :22:28. | |
proceedings in the Commons and will pick up on David Cameron's response | :22:29. | :22:32. | |
to Ed Miliband, where he criticise Labour's close relationship with | :22:32. | :22:37. | |
News International. Let us remember who was the adviser | :22:37. | :22:40. | |
to Gordon Brown when he was the Chancellor? The Right Honourable | :22:41. | :22:44. | |
Gentleman! On the issue of the action we have taken, let us | :22:45. | :22:48. | |
remember during the last Parliament reports of the Information | :22:48. | :22:52. | |
Commissioner ignored, reports of the select committee, ignored, the | :22:52. | :22:56. | |
failure of the police investigation, ignored. We know exactly which | :22:56. | :23:00. | |
party was, if you like, the slumber party, and it was the party | :23:00. | :23:07. | |
opposite. Frankly, everyone can see exactly what he is doing, and ate | :23:07. | :23:12. | |
hands to play this for narrow party advantage. The problem has been | :23:12. | :23:16. | |
taking place over many years. The problem is for both our main | :23:16. | :23:19. | |
parties, and the problem is one that the public expect us to stop | :23:19. | :23:23. | |
playing with it to rise to the occasion and deal with it for the | :23:23. | :23:33. | |
:23:33. | :23:35. | ||
good of the country. Order! Mr David Davies. Under the previous | :23:35. | :23:39. | |
Labour government, when my Right Honourable Friend the Member for | :23:39. | :23:41. | |
Ashford Damian Green was arrested by the Metropolitan Police, the | :23:41. | :23:45. | |
Prime Minister and Home Secretary of the day were not notified of the | :23:45. | :23:50. | |
details of that investigation. At the time, the Labour front bench in | :23:50. | :23:54. | |
this did -- insisted that they were not told. Is it not therefore the | :23:54. | :23:57. | |
case that not only has Mr Ed Llewellyn not done wrong, but has | :23:57. | :24:00. | |
done exactly what are public servants should do and to say | :24:00. | :24:07. | |
otherwise is hypocrisy? He makes a very good point. When you read the | :24:07. | :24:10. | |
exchange of e-mails and you see what Ed Llewellyn said, you see | :24:10. | :24:14. | |
that it was cleared in advance by Jeremy Hayward, it was absolutely | :24:14. | :24:19. | |
right. We do not live in a country where the Prime Minister orders who | :24:19. | :24:29. | |
:24:29. | :24:34. | ||
should be arrested and who The Home Secretary made a statement | :24:34. | :24:39. | |
on Monday of over 1,000 words, but the two words Neil Wallis were not | :24:39. | :24:45. | |
mentioned. She, like me, was not aware of his appointment, but we | :24:45. | :24:50. | |
were not in a situation where Neil Wallis' best buddy was working for | :24:50. | :24:55. | |
us. The Prime Minister was. Did he know that Neil Wallis was giving | :24:55. | :25:00. | |
advice to the Metropolitan Police? No I didn't know that. And as I | :25:00. | :25:04. | |
have said, in relation to the work he did for Andy Coulson, I was not | :25:04. | :25:09. | |
aware of that. This is an important point because one of the issues is | :25:09. | :25:13. | |
the transparency and information that there was about Neil Wallis | :25:13. | :25:17. | |
and the Metropolitan Police. One thing everybody has to say about 10 | :25:17. | :25:21. | |
Downing Street, there was no hiding the fact we had employed Andy | :25:21. | :25:26. | |
Coulson. Mr Simon Hughes. I joined the Prime Minister in paying | :25:26. | :25:28. | |
tribute to Paul Stephenson and thank him for the announcements he | :25:28. | :25:33. | |
has made, but will he explicitly say that he accepts that all | :25:33. | :25:37. | |
governments from this one back, five the 20 years, have been far | :25:37. | :25:44. | |
too close to the media giants in this country, and that that has to | :25:44. | :25:50. | |
end, which means no more back door visit to Number Ten? And that we | :25:50. | :25:54. | |
should be able to have not just sight of party political papers but | :25:54. | :25:59. | |
if necessary cabinet papers and the recommendations of the Information | :25:59. | :26:03. | |
Commission and others should be implemented to increase criminal | :26:03. | :26:08. | |
penalties for criminality immediately. I accept that point he | :26:08. | :26:12. | |
makes about transparency. What I have set out is not just official | :26:12. | :26:15. | |
meetings with media executives and proprietors but also private | :26:15. | :26:20. | |
meetings as well, and in relation to a meeting I held with Rupert | :26:20. | :26:23. | |
Murdoch, the fact is not whether he came through the front or back door, | :26:23. | :26:28. | |
but was it declared in the proper way? Yes, it was. In the old days, | :26:28. | :26:33. | |
the only way you found out if Rupert Murdoch has met someone was | :26:33. | :26:37. | |
to wait for Alistair Campbell's diaries! We have been transparent | :26:37. | :26:40. | |
about this, going back to the election, including private and | :26:40. | :26:44. | |
official meetings, whether at Chequers or Downing Street, and I | :26:44. | :26:47. | |
think we need to go further in this regard and this should be the new | :26:47. | :26:51. | |
standard. I say to the right honourable gentleman who published | :26:51. | :26:54. | |
information from when he became leader of the Labour Party, why can | :26:54. | :26:59. | |
we not see back to the general election? Mr Jack Straw. When the | :26:59. | :27:05. | |
Prime Minister read of the extensive investigation in the New | :27:05. | :27:10. | |
York Times on the 1st September last year, what was his reaction to | :27:11. | :27:15. | |
that, and what did he do? question I asked myself all the way | :27:15. | :27:18. | |
through his, is there new information that Andy Coulson knew | :27:18. | :27:22. | |
about hacking at the News Of The World? I could not be clearer about | :27:22. | :27:27. | |
this. If it turns out he knew about the hacking, he will have lied to | :27:27. | :27:32. | |
the select committee, police, to a court of law, and to me. I made the | :27:32. | :27:35. | |
decision to employ him in good faith because of the assurances he | :27:35. | :27:39. | |
gave me. There was no information in that article that would have led | :27:39. | :27:45. | |
me to change my mind about those assurances. But if it turns out... | :27:45. | :27:51. | |
As I said, I could not be clearer, if it turns out that he knew about | :27:51. | :27:55. | |
the hacking, then that will be a matter of huge regret, great | :27:55. | :27:59. | |
apology, a disgrace not only that he worked in government but also, | :27:59. | :28:03. | |
vitally, something that will be subject to criminal prosecutions. | :28:03. | :28:12. | |
Mr John Whittingdale. Does my right honourable friend agree that what | :28:12. | :28:15. | |
people really care about is the appalling revelations of what has | :28:15. | :28:19. | |
been going on in the newsroom at the News Of The World and the | :28:19. | :28:21. | |
involvement of the Metropolitan Police, and that the public anger | :28:21. | :28:26. | |
about that is expressly found by thousands of hard-working and | :28:26. | :28:30. | |
honest journalists and thousands of dedicated and courageous police | :28:30. | :28:34. | |
officers? For that reason, it is essential that the police | :28:34. | :28:38. | |
investigation should be completed as quickly as possible, the IPCC's | :28:38. | :28:42. | |
investigation should be completed and the judicial requiring -- | :28:42. | :28:46. | |
judicial inquiry should be completed as soon as possible, and | :28:46. | :28:48. | |
canny give assurance they will be given the priority they should have | :28:48. | :28:53. | |
been given a long time ago. He is entirely right. At the absolute | :28:53. | :28:57. | |
heart of this we have got to keep the victims of the hacking scandal, | :28:57. | :29:01. | |
and those are people who suffered appallingly already and were made | :29:01. | :29:06. | |
to suffer all over again. The key thing here is the extent and scale | :29:06. | :29:10. | |
of the judicial inquiry. An inquiry like this into the media, | :29:10. | :29:14. | |
malpractice, the police and politicians, too, has not been held | :29:14. | :29:18. | |
for many years. It has been talked about and debated and will now be | :29:18. | :29:21. | |
underway, and I wanted to get on with its work as rapidly as | :29:21. | :29:28. | |
possible. Tom Robson. I must challenge the Prime Minister on the | :29:28. | :29:33. | |
accuracy of one of his assertions. He said that nobody raised Andy | :29:33. | :29:37. | |
Coulson's conduct with him whilst he worked for the Prime Minister. I | :29:37. | :29:43. | |
did in a letter on 4th October last year after new allegations that he | :29:43. | :29:46. | |
had listened to tapes of intercepted voicemail messages came | :29:46. | :29:51. | |
through, and they said in the letter that this cast doubt on the | :29:51. | :29:56. | |
accuracy of Mr Coulson's Stegmann. I am still waiting for a reply. -- | :29:56. | :30:01. | |
Mr Coulson's statement. Let me pay tribute to the honourable gentleman | :30:01. | :30:07. | |
and what he has done. But the point I am making is simply this, that | :30:07. | :30:11. | |
the time that Andy Coulson spent at Number Ten Downing Street, the work | :30:11. | :30:15. | |
he did for the government, no one has complained against, and that | :30:15. | :30:18. | |
seems to me to be important, because what I have said is that I | :30:19. | :30:23. | |
gave him a second chance after he had resigned from the News Of The | :30:23. | :30:26. | |
World because of what happened under his watch, and no one has | :30:26. | :30:30. | |
raised with me any of his conduct at Number Ten while he carried out | :30:30. | :30:40. | |
:30:40. | :30:40. | ||
The Prime Minister has said that contact with the media will be | :30:40. | :30:43. | |
published since the general election. I have to say they do not | :30:43. | :30:47. | |
think that is good enough. We need to know the context of that the | :30:47. | :30:50. | |
Government -- the contacts that the Government have had over the last | :30:50. | :30:54. | |
10 years with the media and an investigation into the Home Office | :30:54. | :31:00. | |
and what they were doing. This inquiry is specifically looking at | :31:00. | :31:03. | |
the relationship between politicians and the media and at | :31:03. | :31:09. | |
the request of Hacked Off and the down -- our family, the conduct of | :31:09. | :31:16. | |
both. -- downer family. I think we'll need to be clear, | :31:16. | :31:21. | |
particularly the two main parties, that the level of contact has been | :31:21. | :31:25. | |
too great and we spent too much time trying to get on with media | :31:25. | :31:30. | |
companies to get our message across. As a result, we have put on the | :31:30. | :31:37. | |
back-burner too often the result -- the issues of how to regulate the | :31:37. | :31:42. | |
media. That is the mistake we made. We have to be honest about that. It | :31:42. | :31:47. | |
is not just the relationship with News International, it is also | :31:47. | :31:51. | |
about the work we do try to win over the BBC or the Independent or | :31:51. | :31:54. | |
the Guardian. Let us be frank and transparent about the meetings we | :31:54. | :32:01. | |
have had. Then we can learn lessons and use this as a cathartic moment | :32:01. | :32:07. | |
to sort out the relationship. not sure that the Prime Minister | :32:07. | :32:13. | |
was a wake at 5:00am this morning, but I'm glad to hear that. The Home | :32:13. | :32:16. | |
Affairs Committee published a unanimous report which points out | :32:16. | :32:20. | |
the fact that we believe there were serious misjudgments in the police | :32:20. | :32:24. | |
investigation. As well as that, that News International had | :32:24. | :32:27. | |
deliberately thwarted the investigation. He will not have a | :32:27. | :32:30. | |
chance to read the evidence of Lord MacDonald who said he took five | :32:30. | :32:35. | |
minutes to look at the file to realise there was criminality. The | :32:35. | :32:39. | |
file was with his firm for four years. Will the send the message | :32:39. | :32:43. | |
out that anyone who has information about this matter should handed | :32:43. | :32:48. | |
over immediately to Sue Akers and explain why it has been withheld. | :32:48. | :32:52. | |
will send out that message from this dispatch box at the same time | :32:52. | :32:54. | |
as thanking the right honourable gentleman for the workers' | :32:54. | :33:00. | |
committee has done. I did not look at all the evidence of a look that | :33:00. | :33:02. | |
the key conclusions of the report. I think the work is committee is | :33:02. | :33:06. | |
doing, drilling into the conduct of News International and the police, | :33:06. | :33:12. | |
is extremely valuable. We now have to lead the police investigation | :33:12. | :33:19. | |
happen, properly resourced, to get underway, to get to the truth and | :33:19. | :33:22. | |
make the proper conclusions. I think the right honourable | :33:22. | :33:28. | |
gentleman has played a good role in making that happen. Does the Prime | :33:28. | :33:32. | |
Minister share my concern that at a time when this House is involved in | :33:32. | :33:36. | |
a very important discussion about this awful issue of phone hacking, | :33:36. | :33:39. | |
and at a time when most people and the country are most concerned | :33:39. | :33:42. | |
about what is going on in the Eurozone area and the impact that | :33:42. | :33:46. | |
that might have on their jobs and their employment in this country, | :33:46. | :33:53. | |
that the Leader of the Opposition is so narrowly focused on party | :33:53. | :33:59. | |
political points? The point a wall made to all honourable members is | :33:59. | :34:02. | |
that the public want us to sort this out. One of the reasons they | :34:02. | :34:07. | |
want us to do it on a cross-party basis is they want us to get on to | :34:07. | :34:10. | |
the other issues that they care so deeply about. Everyone has to | :34:10. | :34:15. | |
recognise the threat and the problems that we face. There are | :34:15. | :34:19. | |
difficulties in the Eurozone that will affect us in the UK. I | :34:19. | :34:22. | |
understand and recognise that we have to deal with this before we | :34:22. | :34:32. | |
:34:32. | :34:32. | ||
can get on with those dishes. his conversations with the Murdochs, | :34:32. | :34:36. | |
with Mrs Brooks and other News Corp people, was there ever any mention | :34:36. | :34:43. | |
of the BSkyB Brit -- BSkyB bid? There was never a conversation that | :34:43. | :34:46. | |
could have been held in front of the Select Committee. He asked me | :34:46. | :34:51. | |
to answer the question, perhaps he will now be transparent, as he was | :34:51. | :34:56. | |
Culture Secretary, about all the contacts he has had with News | :34:56. | :34:59. | |
International over the years. I have set out the clearest possible | :34:59. | :35:06. | |
position. It is for others to now do the same thing. In light of | :35:06. | :35:10. | |
Rebekah Brooks' revelations about her cosy relationship was between | :35:10. | :35:14. | |
Tony Blair and News International, and the secret backdoor meetings | :35:15. | :35:18. | |
under both the last and present governments, does the Prime | :35:18. | :35:22. | |
Minister agree that this explains why successive governments have | :35:22. | :35:28. | |
been so reluctant to Act in response to the 2003 Culture, Media | :35:28. | :35:33. | |
and Sport recommendation, the 2006 Media Report and the call from Lib | :35:33. | :35:41. | |
Dem MPs for a judicial inquiry last year. People should not showered | :35:41. | :35:44. | |
the honourable lady down because she is making a valid point. It | :35:44. | :35:48. | |
does not reflect well on Labour or can the Conservatives. There were | :35:48. | :35:57. | |
warnings about what was going on from the Select Committee. We did | :35:57. | :36:03. | |
not put the issue of regulating the media high up and off -- high up | :36:03. | :36:07. | |
the agenda. We need to work on this and get it right, respond to those | :36:07. | :36:15. | |
reports and put some of these proposals into the law. My right | :36:15. | :36:18. | |
honourable friend the member who chairs the Home Affairs Committee | :36:18. | :36:23. | |
referred earlier to the file compiled in 2007 which was sent off | :36:23. | :36:31. | |
to Harbottle and Lewis. In that, according to the former GP, there | :36:31. | :36:33. | |
is blindingly obvious elements that police officers were paid for | :36:33. | :36:37. | |
information by the newspaper. News International are still refusing to | :36:38. | :36:43. | |
allow that to be fully considered and are insisting on client | :36:43. | :36:46. | |
confidentiality so Harbottle and Lewis are an important British firm | :36:46. | :36:50. | |
and they are unable to put their side of the argument across. Is | :36:50. | :36:56. | |
this not clear evidence that News International, contrary to the | :36:56. | :37:00. | |
potential military yesterday, are still refusing to co-operate fully? | :37:00. | :37:05. | |
The point I would make is that that information if it is important to | :37:05. | :37:10. | |
the inquiry, needs to be given to the police and to the inquiry. We | :37:10. | :37:15. | |
need for the police and the inquiry to go in pursuit of the truth. If | :37:15. | :37:18. | |
people have been paying police officers, those police officers | :37:18. | :37:21. | |
need to be prosecuted and the people who did the paying need to | :37:21. | :37:26. | |
be prosecuted. It is as simple as that. After hearing the evidence | :37:26. | :37:30. | |
given to the Home Affairs Select Committee, can I warmly welcome | :37:30. | :37:33. | |
what my honourable friend has said today that the attention given to | :37:33. | :37:36. | |
the victims of phone hacking, including a wide variety of people | :37:36. | :37:40. | |
including many members of the public who have suffered tragedies? | :37:40. | :37:44. | |
Is aware that in the evidence, it emerges that it will take a | :37:44. | :37:49. | |
considerable rate of time -- length of time of the current rate of | :37:49. | :37:58. | |
process for all of those to be contacted? Will be do what they can | :37:58. | :38:04. | |
to make sure those are investigated? I take the point. | :38:04. | :38:08. | |
With the current rate of progress, it could take too long a time to | :38:08. | :38:11. | |
get this done. I know there will be conversations with the police and | :38:11. | :38:14. | |
the Metropolitan Police Authority to make sure adequate resources are | :38:14. | :38:18. | |
put into this investigation. It is already a far bigger investigation | :38:18. | :38:25. | |
than the first, failed investigation. They are welcome the | :38:25. | :38:27. | |
Prime Minister's decision to widen the terms of reference for the | :38:27. | :38:31. | |
inquiry to include not just the press and broadcasters and social | :38:31. | :38:36. | |
media as well. Can I be reassured that it will also include other | :38:36. | :38:39. | |
illegal and unethical activities such as blagging, hacking into e- | :38:39. | :38:44. | |
mail accounts, and it will extend to all parts of the United Kingdom, | :38:44. | :38:49. | |
and that in interest -- in the interest of the victims of crime | :38:49. | :38:53. | |
and terrorism, that both of the main parties will be open about the | :38:53. | :38:56. | |
extent of their relationship with the Murdoch empire? On the last | :38:57. | :39:02. | |
point, I have been totally transparent and will go on being | :39:02. | :39:07. | |
transparent. On the issue awful the terms of reference mention, of | :39:07. | :39:14. | |
course this inquiry can look at blagging and all of the crimes that | :39:14. | :39:18. | |
have been documented. One of the issues were -- was that if you | :39:18. | :39:23. | |
mention some forms but not others, you give additional priority. Lord | :39:23. | :39:29. | |
Justice Levison can go wherever the evidence leads. Does my right | :39:29. | :39:31. | |
honourable friend agree that after the extraordinary events of the | :39:31. | :39:35. | |
last few days, last thing the general public wants to see is | :39:35. | :39:45. | |
:39:45. | :39:49. | ||
cheap partisanship. We want to hear the honourable lady and a focus on | :39:49. | :39:53. | |
Andy Coulson comes ill from the party of Tom Baldwin and Damian | :39:53. | :40:01. | |
McBride. The honourable lady makes an -- a good point. Can I commend | :40:01. | :40:05. | |
her for her questioning and what she did yesterday on the Select | :40:05. | :40:07. | |
Committee were a thing she showed commendable plot, if I can put it | :40:07. | :40:17. | |
:40:17. | :40:23. | ||
that way, as well as asking some extremely pertinent questions? | :40:23. | :40:27. | |
the course of the past few minutes, the Prime Minister has been asked a | :40:27. | :40:34. | |
simple question twice and refused to answer it. As Prime Minister, | :40:34. | :40:40. | |
did he ever discuss the question of the BSkyB bid with News | :40:40. | :40:45. | |
International at the meetings they attended? I never had one in | :40:45. | :40:54. | |
appropriate conversation. And let me be clear, I completely took | :40:54. | :41:00. | |
myself out of any decision-making about this bid. I had no role | :41:00. | :41:04. | |
limits, in when the results were going to be made, in when the | :41:04. | :41:07. | |
announcements were going to be made and that is the point. When the | :41:07. | :41:12. | |
honourable gentleman makes signals like that. Order. The House, again, | :41:12. | :41:16. | |
needs to come down. The question was probably heard, the Prime | :41:17. | :41:23. | |
Minister's answer must be properly heard. I have answered the question. | :41:23. | :41:29. | |
The pointer would make his, unlike the party he has been supporting | :41:29. | :41:33. | |
for the last god knows how many years, this party set out all its | :41:33. | :41:37. | |
meetings, everything it did, in stark contrast to the party | :41:37. | :41:44. | |
opposite. Judging the mood of the chamber, this might be unpopular | :41:44. | :41:48. | |
thing to say but outside the Westminster bobble, I get the | :41:48. | :41:53. | |
impression that the nation has had its fill on the subject. It is | :41:53. | :41:57. | |
actually getting fed up. It wants answers about the police corruption | :41:57. | :42:01. | |
and about the hacking and the relationship between the press and | :42:01. | :42:05. | |
the media. But there is an inquiry underway and that is where the | :42:05. | :42:10. | |
answers will come. I think it is time that the Westminster frenzy is | :42:10. | :42:15. | |
placed on hold. There are other pressing matters, Mr Speaker, that | :42:15. | :42:20. | |
the nation expects us to deal with. My honourable friend makes a good | :42:20. | :42:24. | |
point. We have set up the fullest possible inquiry, an inquiry never | :42:24. | :42:28. | |
held under the 13 years of a last government. We have to let that | :42:28. | :42:33. | |
inquiry find the answers to all of these questions. It looks at the | :42:33. | :42:38. | |
police, media, BSkyB, the conduct of politicians, and it is able to | :42:38. | :42:41. | |
ask all of those questions and we should be able to allow it to get | :42:41. | :42:47. | |
on with the job. Yesterday, News International's defence seems to | :42:47. | :42:53. | |
have shifted from one role reporter to one possibly more role lawyer. | :42:53. | :42:57. | |
They still have not fully revealed to Newport and when and to | :42:57. | :43:01. | |
participate at that the cover-up. Rupert Murdoch said to be Select | :43:01. | :43:05. | |
Committee that that was unsatisfactory. What would you urge | :43:05. | :43:09. | |
News International to do now to resolve the situation? Simple, tell | :43:09. | :43:17. | |
the truth to the police and to the inquiry. Does the Prime Minister | :43:17. | :43:23. | |
agree with me that having failed the victims in 2006, when the | :43:23. | :43:28. | |
Government ignored the ICO's warnings, and having failed victims | :43:28. | :43:31. | |
in 2009 when the Met dismissed evidence in their own position, we | :43:31. | :43:37. | |
should not fail them now by simply apportioning blame? -- in their own | :43:37. | :43:41. | |
possession. We need reform of our police, our media and our politics. | :43:41. | :43:44. | |
The honourable lady is right. We will go back over these reports and | :43:44. | :43:50. | |
over the missed warnings. The inquiry will be able to do that, | :43:50. | :43:55. | |
too, and we should use that information to use this once in a | :43:55. | :43:59. | |
generation chance to get media regulation right. This is about | :43:59. | :44:06. | |
public confidence. Can I ask the Prime Minister this question? Does | :44:06. | :44:10. | |
he really feel that his conduct as Leader of the Opposition and then | :44:10. | :44:18. | |
as Prime Minister should inspire confidence, bearing in mind the | :44:18. | :44:21. | |
phone hacking allegations and the way in which he employed the former | :44:21. | :44:24. | |
editor of the News of the World? Does he not realise that too many | :44:24. | :44:28. | |
people, how he has acted in the last few years has been pretty | :44:28. | :44:36. | |
sordid? My reply is yes, because which government has set up a | :44:36. | :44:41. | |
judicial inquiry? This one. Which government has made sure there is a | :44:41. | :44:45. | |
fully resourced and staffed police investigation? This one. Which | :44:46. | :44:49. | |
government it is being totally transparent about its conduct and | :44:49. | :44:52. | |
contact with the media and asking others to do the same? That is what | :44:52. | :44:57. | |
this Government has done. His government for 13 years had these | :44:57. | :45:03. | |
opportunities and failed to take them. Would the Prime Minister | :45:03. | :45:06. | |
agree that in the past, when the House of Commons has been faced | :45:06. | :45:10. | |
with big issues, it has had a tendency for knee-jerk over- | :45:10. | :45:13. | |
reaction? Would he agree that actually newspapers are a force for | :45:13. | :45:17. | |
good in this country and that actually what we want at the end of | :45:17. | :45:21. | |
this process is criminality weeded out of the media, but nothing that | :45:21. | :45:25. | |
impinges on a free press, free speech, and holding people in | :45:25. | :45:32. | |
authority to a counter? -- holding people in authority to account. | :45:32. | :45:36. | |
have to make sure that in the debate we have about this, we show | :45:36. | :45:39. | |
an element of restraint in the regulation of the media because the | :45:39. | :45:42. | |
result was a danger that the pendulum swings too far the other | :45:42. | :45:49. | |
way and we start and -- we start to threaten independent journalism, a | :45:49. | :45:52. | |
strong and independent media. When we consider the scandals uncovered | :45:52. | :45:56. | |
in recent years, it has often been the press that have done it, and | :45:57. | :46:00. | |
not the regulators. I'm sure we will come on to this in the debate | :46:00. | :46:10. | |
:46:10. | :46:11. | ||
we have later but it is vital to Rebecca Brooks yesterday described | :46:11. | :46:15. | |
the Prime Minister as a friend and a neighbour. We heard from Jeremy | :46:15. | :46:25. | |
:46:25. | :46:26. | ||
Clarkson about Christmas walks and conversations over sausages. Order! | :46:27. | :46:32. | |
This is the mother of Parliament where we have free speech. This | :46:32. | :46:39. | |
question will be heard, that is the end of it. Given the Butler review | :46:39. | :46:43. | |
in the last Parliament, does the Prime Minister believe that such | :46:43. | :46:48. | |
informality on his behalf was consistent with what is expected? | :46:48. | :46:52. | |
What I would say to the honourable gentleman is that one of the things | :46:52. | :46:56. | |
that came out of the evidence yesterday is that, whereas Rebekah | :46:57. | :47:00. | |
Brooks was invited six times in year to Number Ten Downing Street | :47:00. | :47:04. | |
under both the former prime ministers, she has not been invited | :47:04. | :47:10. | |
to Number Ten Downing Street by me. Of course, I have set out... The | :47:10. | :47:15. | |
great contrast is I have set out all of the contacts and meetings | :47:15. | :47:19. | |
that I have had in complete contrast to the party opposite, and | :47:19. | :47:23. | |
I can say this to the Honourable Gentleman, I have never held a | :47:23. | :47:33. | |
:47:33. | :47:34. | ||
slumber party or seen her in her pyjamas! Thank you, Mr Speaker. The | :47:34. | :47:42. | |
confidence of my constituents in Northamptonshire... Order, order! I | :47:42. | :47:52. | |
:47:52. | :47:53. | ||
want to hear and the House wants to hear. I will start again. The | :47:53. | :47:56. | |
confidence of my constituents in Northampton in the political | :47:56. | :48:01. | |
process has been progressively undermined and can be traced to the | :48:01. | :48:07. | |
dismal example of politicians in the mid- 1990s laying all before | :48:07. | :48:13. | |
the older of media barons. How can we change that culture, address the | :48:13. | :48:16. | |
miserable failure of political oversight and leadership, and | :48:16. | :48:20. | |
ensure that never again will we allow the propriety to be | :48:20. | :48:26. | |
sacrificed whilst those responsible are asleep on what? Are I think the | :48:26. | :48:30. | |
short answer to the honourable gentleman is that transparency is | :48:30. | :48:36. | |
the correct answer. I will -- I touched on this one I opened the | :48:36. | :48:42. | |
debate in my speech, but I think that everyone should see how often | :48:42. | :48:48. | |
that we need. The Prime Minister has repeatedly emphasised that he | :48:48. | :48:53. | |
has no evidence of any complaint or questions about the conduct of Andy | :48:53. | :48:58. | |
Coulson while he was heading a government media service. Will the | :48:58. | :49:03. | |
Prime Minister confirm that a year ago, during the period when Mr | :49:03. | :49:05. | |
Coulson was director of communications, the Cabinet | :49:05. | :49:09. | |
Secretary was alerted to evidence of illegal phone hacking, covert | :49:09. | :49:13. | |
surveillance, and hostile media briefing directed against a senior | :49:13. | :49:19. | |
official in the government said this? What action, if any, was | :49:19. | :49:22. | |
taken to investigate what appears to have been disgraceful and | :49:23. | :49:26. | |
illegal conduct close to the heart of government? I have to look | :49:26. | :49:30. | |
closely at what the honourable gentleman says, but the point I | :49:30. | :49:34. | |
have made, and I have never seen evidence to go against it, is in | :49:34. | :49:38. | |
the period Andy Coulson worked at Number Ten Downing Street as head | :49:38. | :49:41. | |
of communications, there was no complaint about the way he did his | :49:41. | :49:46. | |
job. I take responsibility for employing him, I take | :49:46. | :49:49. | |
responsibility for that decision and I have laid out today what I | :49:49. | :49:53. | |
think of that now and all that has been learned, and you have to learn | :49:53. | :49:56. | |
these lessons if you are going to get things right in the future. | :49:56. | :50:00. | |
What I would say in my defence is in the time he was at Downing | :50:00. | :50:03. | |
Street, he did not behave in a way that anyone that was inappropriate, | :50:03. | :50:08. | |
and that was important because the decision was to employ him, the | :50:08. | :50:11. | |
decision was his to leave, and during that period people cannot | :50:12. | :50:19. | |
point to his conduct and say that was a misjudgment. Many | :50:19. | :50:22. | |
constituents have contacted me regarding this issue and they will | :50:22. | :50:25. | |
join me in Markham in a statement today, but many others have been in | :50:25. | :50:29. | |
touch concerning other important issues such as the crisis in the | :50:29. | :50:34. | |
eurozone and the situation in Africa. Can the Prime Minister | :50:34. | :50:36. | |
reassure my constituents that this government is dealing with all | :50:36. | :50:41. | |
issues and not focusing on phone hacking? The honourable lady is | :50:41. | :50:45. | |
right, people wanted to get on with the other issues at a time when we | :50:45. | :50:48. | |
need the economy to grow, need to provide more jobs, have to get to | :50:48. | :50:53. | |
grips with problems of the cost of living, they want reforms and | :50:53. | :50:56. | |
welfare and immigration. Yes, they want us to deal with it issue but | :50:56. | :50:59. | |
they want us to get on with the other issues this country needs to | :50:59. | :51:03. | |
deal with. A flavour of the Commons debate | :51:03. | :51:07. | |
with MPs questioning David Cameron. It continues all afternoon in the | :51:07. | :51:11. | |
Commons and you can much coverage on BBC Parliament. But let's | :51:11. | :51:14. | |
discuss that debate and where this episode leaves British politics | :51:14. | :51:18. | |
with Kevin Maguire from the Mirror and Tim Montgomery from | :51:18. | :51:23. | |
Conservative time. What about David Cameron's | :51:23. | :51:28. | |
performance? It was a big day today, cutting short his trip to Africa. | :51:28. | :51:33. | |
How did he do? I think he did very well, and I say that as someone who | :51:33. | :51:37. | |
thinks he has been behind the curve for the last few weeks. He was very | :51:37. | :51:41. | |
authoritative today and was where the British people want that Prime | :51:41. | :51:44. | |
Minister to be. He has taken tough action to deal with the problems | :51:44. | :51:48. | |
that occurred during the Labour years, and getting the British | :51:48. | :51:51. | |
people now have seen the Prime Minister take action and what their | :51:51. | :51:55. | |
government to get focused on the issues they are concerned about, | :51:55. | :51:59. | |
like the euro, immigration, crime, and I think enough has been done | :51:59. | :52:02. | |
now for him to have earned the right to move on. Has he done | :52:02. | :52:06. | |
enough to persuade his own backbenchers? They probably will | :52:06. | :52:10. | |
have sat there and C Ed Miliband having had a pretty good time of it | :52:10. | :52:16. | |
through the phone hacking scandal, and perhaps think the Prime | :52:16. | :52:20. | |
Minister has been behind the curve. They were warring their support | :52:20. | :52:24. | |
today, they were very enthusiastic, and they think we are beginning to | :52:24. | :52:29. | |
see the signs of a overreach from Ed Miliband. He has had a good | :52:29. | :52:34. | |
couple of weeks, but there was an element today where he could see | :52:34. | :52:38. | |
conspiracy theories behind every corner. He needs to address his | :52:38. | :52:41. | |
fundamental weakness as Labour leader, that people do not trust | :52:41. | :52:45. | |
him on the economy, and as we are going into a summer when the | :52:45. | :52:50. | |
economy will be dominant, he needs to change focus. Do you think, | :52:50. | :52:54. | |
Kevin, that Ed Miliband hit the wrong note today? That having had a | :52:54. | :52:58. | |
few weeks of putting pressure on David Cameron, today was a day to | :52:58. | :53:01. | |
say, we all have to look at relationships with the press, with | :53:01. | :53:06. | |
the police, rather than a continuing on the, why did you hire | :53:06. | :53:13. | |
Andy Coulson? Today was party political on both sides. David | :53:13. | :53:17. | |
Cameron did do well, it was very feisty, although I am sure some of | :53:17. | :53:20. | |
his answers on what he did or didn't know on Andy Coulson | :53:20. | :53:24. | |
probably would not stand up to sustained questioning if he came | :53:24. | :53:33. | |
and sat here. Let's take the BSkyB question. He was asked several | :53:33. | :53:37. | |
times, in all of the meetings of News International, has he ever | :53:38. | :53:43. | |
raised the issue of BSkyB? His first answer to that was, as | :53:43. | :53:49. | |
Rebecca Brooks said yesterday, the second was, I have never had an | :53:49. | :53:53. | |
inappropriate discussion. I am afraid most people would think that | :53:53. | :54:01. | |
he did, then, not inappropriate but he did discuss BSkyB. Yes, that he | :54:01. | :54:06. | |
did discuss it. The meetings, he has been transparent about | :54:06. | :54:09. | |
discussing the meetings between News International and the | :54:09. | :54:12. | |
government, but not about those informal social interactions. | :54:12. | :54:17. | |
has always been a case in Downing Street, you go downstairs it is | :54:17. | :54:20. | |
recorded, you go upstairs for a private meeting that never was. He | :54:20. | :54:25. | |
has had so much social contact, as did Gordon Brown and Tony Blair... | :54:25. | :54:30. | |
Much has been made of Gordon Brown even by a Rupert Murdoch himself | :54:30. | :54:35. | |
yesterday, how cosy they were with the Murdochs. A very good line with | :54:35. | :54:39. | |
David Cameron, I have never seen Rebekah Brooks in her pyjamas! | :54:39. | :54:45. | |
haven't, have you? I am glad to year that! No one would admit it | :54:45. | :54:53. | |
now anyway! I have never seen her dressed in appropriately! In terms | :54:53. | :54:57. | |
of inappropriate relationships, where it comes to Labour's | :54:57. | :55:02. | |
relationships with the Murdochs, not just Tony Blair and Gordon | :55:02. | :55:05. | |
Brown, are they putting themselves in the firing line if they continue | :55:05. | :55:10. | |
in that vein? Yes, you cannot ignore the past and Labour was too | :55:10. | :55:14. | |
close. Tony Blair and Alastair Campbell ran their media operations | :55:14. | :55:18. | |
through News International. Gordon Brown tried to cosy up, | :55:18. | :55:23. | |
unsuccessfully. Successful for a while. True, but in the end he got | :55:23. | :55:29. | |
his fingers burned. Ed Miliband has got quite clean hands on this. | :55:29. | :55:37. | |
people would dispute that. Andy Coulson obviously was there at the | :55:37. | :55:42. | |
Prime Minister's side but has been done for a few months. Still at Ed | :55:42. | :55:45. | |
Miliband's side is Tom Baldwin who used to work at the Times and News | :55:45. | :55:50. | |
International. But there is no indication of wrong doing. That was | :55:50. | :55:54. | |
the position of Andy Coulson for a while. Very specific allegations | :55:54. | :56:00. | |
have been made about him black ink into bank accounts. The killer | :56:00. | :56:07. | |
facts have yet to come out -- about him blagging. When will we get | :56:07. | :56:13. | |
them? He has not spoken to me since the five o'clock interview on | :56:13. | :56:19. | |
election night! I am not surprised! For someone trying to ride his high | :56:19. | :56:24. | |
horse, as Ed Miliband is doing, saying he is whiter than white, and | :56:24. | :56:27. | |
have a guy with significant question marks hanging over him, is | :56:27. | :56:30. | |
dangerous, as well as Rupert Murdoch agreeing to was yesterday | :56:31. | :56:34. | |
the scale of the meetings that have taken place between past Labour | :56:35. | :56:38. | |
leaders and the Murdoch empire. What about the political benefits | :56:38. | :56:44. | |
for Ed Miliband and the Labour Party? There were polls that said, | :56:44. | :56:46. | |
how are engaged is the public generally in this when you have the | :56:46. | :56:51. | |
other issues? But also the Labour Party has not improved that much. | :56:51. | :56:56. | |
Ed Miliband's standard has improved, he will be pleased about that? | :56:56. | :57:02. | |
should be, because it was very low! He has made himself safe within the | :57:02. | :57:05. | |
Labour Purdie. Murdoch is a bogeyman for many in the Labour | :57:06. | :57:09. | |
Party. But he has not yet broken through with the country as a whole, | :57:09. | :57:14. | |
but it is a slow burner. It may never explode fully, it may not be | :57:14. | :57:19. | |
the dynamite fact to nail David Cameron to Andy Coulson knowing | :57:19. | :57:23. | |
things he should not have known, because that may not exist, but if | :57:23. | :57:29. | |
it does then I think Ed Miliband will look very different. In terms | :57:29. | :57:34. | |
of David Cameron, over the last few days we had a bitter debate earlier | :57:34. | :57:39. | |
about whether senior Tories have been -- we had a bit of a debate | :57:39. | :57:44. | |
about where the senior Tories have been batting for David Cameron. We | :57:44. | :57:48. | |
were told they did not know what the line was. What do you say to | :57:48. | :57:53. | |
that? I think David Cameron will be OK after this. Overall approval | :57:53. | :57:57. | |
ratings have not changed but I think there are lessons to be | :57:57. | :58:01. | |
learned. Traditionally, you have a Tory party chairman in the media | :58:01. | :58:05. | |
every day batting for the Prime Minister. I rang Central Office | :58:05. | :58:11. | |
about this the other day, I wondered whether she was unwell or | :58:11. | :58:14. | |
abroad, and apparently she is preparing for the party conference | :58:14. | :58:19. | |
which is three months of. She has not spoken to me since the Tory | :58:19. | :58:25. | |
party conference either! Or a car crash into the! Cameron desperately | :58:25. | :58:30. | |
needs that kind of figure out there doing this stuff he needs to be | :58:30. | :58:37. | |
above -- a car crash into view. He needs to go puzzle of the | :58:37. | :58:40. | |
hypocrisies and contradictions in Labour's positioned. | :58:40. | :58:46. | |
That is it for today, we thank all of our guests. That really is it | :58:46. | :58:50. | |
for the summer after two false start! We will not be back tomorrow, | :58:50. | :58:53. |