11/08/2011 Daily Politics

Morning folks. Welcome to this special edition of the Daily

Politics. In the aftermath of the riots of the past week MPs have

returned to Westminster for an emergency session of parliament to

discuss the violence, looting, widespread lawlessness that has

swept across most of England's major cities.

After four nights of disorder last night was much calmer, thanks to

large police numbers and heavy rain, while courts sat through the night

to deal with the hundreds of those arrested.

In half an hour the Prime Minister will outline more details of what

he's called the fightback against the riots when he addresses the

Commons. We will have his statement live here at 11.30am. And, as

markets tumble further over questions now about France's

economy, Chancellor George Osborne will be making a statement on the

global financial turbulence. So, all that to come before 1.00

this afternoon on this Daily Politics special. With me for the

duration Conservative Party chairman Baroness Warsi and former

Labour Home Secretary Charles Clarke. Welcome to you both.

Now, after four nights when the streets of England's cities became

the scene of riots and looting, sometimes unchecked by the police,

last night was that bit quieter. But if the immediate threat of

continuing riots appears to have died down the questions about

police tactics, police response, police numbers, and the political

argument over just why England has been riven by riot with areas given

over to anarchy for hour upon hour, well they're only just starting.

Speaking this morning Labour's shadow Home Secretary, Yvette

Cooper, told the BBC that the Government must reverse its

decision to cut police budgets. We've always said that we think the

scale and pace of the cuts to the police budget is too great. It's

unsustainable and is unfair on communities because it is taking

risks with law and order. I think the events of the last few days

have made it abundantly clear that if you have more officers on the

streets, if you have more police out and about it makes a real

difference. Speaking for the Government the Liberal Democrat

leader and deputy prime minister Nick Clegg rejected the idea that

the rioting was linked to cuts in police numbers. I think it's simply

ridiculous to say that people have been smashing windows, looting

shops, thiefing, stealing, because of Government policies or indeed

about cuts to some police numbers which haven't happened and all of

which we judge as a Government are entirely managable and will allow

the police in the future, just as they have today, to deploy large

numbers into areas where that is needed.

That's a taste of what we may hear more of in the Commons from the

coalition and the Labour opposition in just under half an hour. Charles

Clarke, are these riots, will they result in a watershed in British

politics? I think they'll be very substantial, at a whole set of

levels. Firsly, it tells you that there are consequences to what

happens and that means on economic policy, on policing policy and so

on, there are consequences. So, I would be very surprised if all the

Government - doesn't want to stop and think again about the various

policies they're pursuing. Secondly, I think the Prime Minister's

metaphor of sickness, which is an interesting one to use in some ways

a poor one to use, in my opinion, does raise the question what is the

sickness, who is sick, what's the diagnosis, what are the steps that

have to be taken in a variety of different ways, in particular areas

and so on? In that sense it's a debate worth having. There's a lot

to be said about it. Do you have this debate during the 13 years you

were in power? Absolutely if you... What went wrong? If you take the

sickness metaphor, we went through a set of programmes to recreate and

strengthen communities in inner cities. For example, the Sure Start

programmes, neighbourhood policing, anti-social behaviour, a range of

different things which were done to address this. Doesn't seem to have

worked, does it? The biggest failure, I think, was not have a

Coe here -- coherent enough approach to children, a group

alienated and that's a failure we had. Generally speaking we did

commit to solving problemss. Will this be a watershed for the

coalition, will it have to rethink its approach in a number of areas.

It will have to become more front- footed about some areas we have

been talking about. I agree with Charles, that this is a really

important debate to have. What is the sickness, where does it come

from, what are the underlining causes and what can you do to deal

with it? What I would define as a sickness is this culture, this

feeling of a lack of personal responsibility. People feeling that,

if I can I will. If you hear about some of the people going through

the courts these are not deprived disadvantaged or even young people

some of them, we heard about some people now in their 30s with jobs

who took advantage and it's this culture of I can take advantage of

this, I don't have to suffer consequences of my actions and

there is that underlining deep- seated cultural... Why does it take

a riot to make the political system face this? We have seen in this

country an underclass festering for 40 years and getting more and more

entrenched and yet on the left and the right you have effectively

looked the other way. When we have spoken and I have spoken about the

underclass in the past, I mean I have spoken about, for example, my

own working class roots and... That's very different. That's

different to what we see now as an underclass and we see it across all

communities and I have spoken about it in relation to specific

communities. When I have spoken about this or indeed when David

Cameron has spoken about this when he spoke about broken Britain,

there were a lot on the left and even the kind of intelligence on

all sides who were a bit sniffy about saying why are we talking

about this and maybe in some ways that important debate that David

was having and the the khrfs were - - Conservatives were having. Seems

to have dropped it recently. Despite much op significant from --

op session from people -- opposition not to talk about what

it means to have a strong society, to have strong parenting we managed

to continually talk about it and this highlights why it's important.

OK. Charles Clarke, you doubled public spending in the Labour

Government, you had massive amounts of money going into these areas,

yet it did not eradicate the core problem of a largely unemployed

underclass. It didn't eradicate it. It made massive impact on it and I

don't agree with your picture of 40 years of nothing happening in these

areas. We had an enormous range of programmes which were targeted

specifically at the inner city. For example, the parenting example. We

had massive support for parenting precisely to try and address some

of these particular problems. I will concede, of course, that we

did not solve the problems, that's definitely the case. But it's

certainly not the case it was broken Britain or this analysis

being described. Britain looks pretty broken to people abroad

today. You have a group of thousands of people who have been

doing this terrible action, creating fear and if you look at

the numbers from the Met, from the West Midlands, that's what it is,

thousands, not tens of thousands of people. All right. Thank you for

your initial impressions, we will go into more detail in a minute.

But let me remind you of how events have unfolded on England's city

streets over the past few days. Here is Adam Fleming.

Trouble first flared on Saturday night in the north London borough

of Tottenham. Police cars were attacked then set on fire, local

businesses damaged, homes destroyed. I was trying to get out of the

building, we were in such a panic and then we got outside and then I

saw the building. Flames going up the building. It started as a

peaceful sreupblgily by the -- vigil by friends and family of this

man, Mark Duggan who was shot a few days before. Then came the looting

at a nearby retail park, where clothes and electronics were stolen.

As the community counted the cost of a night of violence, messages

were circulating across the city on BlackBerry mobile phones calling

for more. That came on the following night. On Monday youths

fought battles with riot police in Hackney, south of the river in

Croydon a furniture warehouse that survived the two world wars was

burned to the ground. The affluent suburb of Ealing looked more like a

war zone and shops in Clapham Junction became targets for more

looting. Boris Johnson, the Mayor of London, flew back early from his

holidays, so too did the Prime Minister who called in

reinforcements for the under pressure met police. The Police

commissioner has said compared with the 6,000 police on the streets

last night in London, there will be some 16,000 officers tonight. All

leave within the Metropolitan Police has been cancelled. There

will be aid coming from police forces up and down the country.

That led to a night of relative calm in London, a city that felt

like it was in lockdown. But trouble flared in other places,

including Birmingham, elsewhere in the Midlands, Manchester, Salford,

Gloucester. An ever widening spiral of disorder that's led to hundreds

arrested, that's left politicians struggling to keep up and which has

stretched the police almost to the limit.

Adam Fleming with an overview of events of the past week. We can now

join him in parliament as MPs gather for this emergency statement

by the Prime Minister. It will happen at 11.30am.

Morning, Andrew. MPs are coming back from their holidays for this

emergency recall of parliament to listen to David Cameron's statement,

then there's going to be a debate lasting to about 7.00pm. I am

delighted to say I am joined by Priti Patel, the Conservative MP,

and Chuka Umunna, the Labour MP for Streatham in London, there was

actually trouble in your constituency at the weekend. Now,

how do you make sure this isn't a talking shop with people standing

up to condemn the violence and nothing gets done? Well, I think

the condemnation will come, that's inevitable, there's no doubt about

that. I think the questions will also come in terms of policing, in

terms of also the sanctions against these people that have committed

these crimes. Actually I think, certainly from my constituents and

I am sure others written to, that's what the public want to hear, that

action will be taken and importantly they want to know that

the state has regained control as well, particularly of our streets.

What sort of sanctions are you talking about? I think it's

punishments for those that are convicted of violence and

criminality. I have spoken this morning about this issue already. I

do think we have to look at taking away some of those -- where they

have been convicted of criminal acts. What does that mean for

sentencing reforms planned by Ken Clarke the just Secretary? That's

an open question. That's a piece of legislation going to go through the

Commons in the autumn. I think we got to look at the eninforcement of

punishment and this is also about welfare reform as well, another

piece of legislation, looking at housing benefits, for example and

some of the welfare benefits that people are currently getting. We

have to relook at that, where they have committed acts of violence and

criminality. There was disturbance in your constituency, do you have a

theory about the root causes behind all of this? The first thing I

would say I don't think we should engage in knee-jerk reaction to

what's happened, I say that as an constituency MP who has had an

constituency affected by this, it's not just a question of the law,

it's a question of the application and enforcement of it. Of course,

that brings in lots of issues, for example, police numbers. I mean,

there was points in my constituency at the time over the weekend where

we were just overwhelmed and so resourcing is an issue there. But I

hope today that we are not going to have a competition to see who can

express the most outrage and come up with perhaps the most punitive

sanctions, hang them and flog them tone of debate, I hope we don't go

down that avenue. Secondly, I hope people like myself and my

constituents, we are entitled to have a discussion about the deep

profound causes of what has happened without accusations that

we are somehow appeasing or excusing what went on, because I

tell you what, we are the ones who suffered from it. So if anyone can

see there is absolutely no justification for what has been

going on, it's people in my constituency and members of

parliament like myself who represent those that have been

affected. Do you agree with your Labour colleagues like khreufbg and

Harare har Ken Livingstone and Harriet Harman? I am not sure I

necessarily would put it that way myself. Partly because some of

those things have still to come through. But there clearly is

something that has gone profoundly wrong here. Even although I have

said time and again this was opportunistic behaviour, completely

inexcusable, we have to look at why is it that people behaving in this

way, why are they doing these things? Unless we look for an

explanation, unless we look to have a deeper understanding of what has

gone on, instead of engaging in a kind of armchair commentary based

on anecdotal-style debate we are not going to prevent it happening

again. I do not want the people I represent ever having to feel that

they can't go and walk on their streets at night ever again. Thank

you very much. An idea there I think of some of the things that we

will hear in the debate when they get to talk after the Prime

Minister's statement. Thank you. Indeed, that is a sense

of the mood inside parliament as MPs return and as they were

discussing the debate is focusing, part anyway, on police tactics and

police numbers. This morning the acting Metropolitan Police

Commissioner defended the way the capital's police forces acted

What I would like to do is pay tribute to the men and women who

went out on Monday night, when we faced unprecedented, unprecedented,

violence and damage and criminality and looting. They were so brave. I

was so proud of them, in terms of how they did stand up. Any

suggestion that the officers stood back is wrong. We are joined now by

the former Scotland Yard police commander Bob Milton. Good morning.

Welcome to the programme. Sayeeda Warsi, did increasing the numbers

of police on the streets on Tuesday night, particularly in London, stop

the riots? Yes, I think it made a material difference. So doesn't it

follow, therefore, that if you cut the police numbers, as your

Government is planning to do, we are more likely to get disorder?

what follows police officers should be out on the streets more. They

should be spending more of their time in frontline policing rather

than completing paperwork. There's a statistic which says the average

officer spends 14% of his or her time on patrol and spends 22 % of

their time completing paperwork. Are you telling our viewers that,

even though overall police numbers are being cut, that's inco

veritable, your Government admitted that, there'll not with a reduction

of police on the streets? That's exactly what I'm saying. And that's

a promise, a guarantee? The Home Secretary has been saying

consistently that visible policing, which is what made the difference

that night. I understand that. visible policing and the situation

of the last three days, that if God forbid a situation like that was to

arise we would have the visible police numbers to deal with it

after the cuts. So to be clear, whatever the cuts in police budgets

that are taking place, that will not lead to a reduction in police

numbers fon streets? It will note lead to a reduction in police

visibility on the streets. Police officers who currently maybe are

sitting... What's the difference between visibility in numbers?

actually be a police officer which is a statistic and part of the

number but not spend any time on patrol. We are very clear about

police visibility on the streets. In fact the reforms are about

saying we don't want police officers sat in back rooms. I get

the point. Charles Clarke, you are a former Home Secretary, according

to Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary, in many areas only

10% of the total police complement are in their -- are on the streets?

In principle it is possible. That's what we were doing about numbers on

the streets when I was Home Secretary and beforehand. A series

of measures, the most important of which was neighbourhood policing,

and establishing the police community support officers. The

paperwork Sayeeda refer to is necessary to bring about the

conviction of criminals. That's what police are engaged in doing.

The airwave radio system, designed to increase the number of people

going out on if beat. However, the core point is there's a cynicism

and a dishonesty in what both the Home Secretary is saying and what

Sayeeda just now said, with the suggestion that somehow you can cut

the police gucts the scale that's necessary and at the same time

retain the same or more police presence on the streets. I've

spoken to many Chief Constables about this and to Denis oh Conor,

it is simply not possible at this level. But if only 10% of police

are on the streets, why is it not possible, why are 90% elsewhere?

Because there's a whole set of patterns of policing, including

focusing on areas of particular need. The policing the other need,

that would mean there is much less police presence elsewhere. We

called off football matches for that purpose. I'm not contesting,

Andrew, that it is necessary to get a higher proportion of police time

on the street. Would say however, that was being done, is being done,

and cannot be done enough to justify the cuts in police numbers

which the Government is proposing. You are a former policeman. What do

you say? It is not simply how many police officers on the street, but

how they operate. The communities over the last few days have given

the Police Service a clear mandate. They do not want a Police Service

that panders to who shouts loudist, and they are monitored to death.

They want police officers going out there enforcing the law. Maybe they

want a police force rather than a Police Service. You could say that.

The point is that over the last 15- 20 years we've seen a slow erosion

of the authority of police officers on the street. What's happening now

is the shackles are being removed. We are seeing that large numbers of

police officers are not sustainable. Of course we can't keep 16,000. But

having police forces on the streets of London and the rest of the

country on a 24 hour basis has shown communities what can be done.

What do you make of reports in the media that the Metropolitan Police,

as these riots gathered pace, and before the show of strength on

Tuesday night, that ordinary bobbies in the riot gear and on the

streets were instructed, "To stand and observe" rather than take on

the rioters. There are two issues there. Can you confirm that?

can't confirm, that because I wasn't in the control room. No, but

you have contacts in the police. What I can say clearly is when you

have disorder, you have to stamp it out straight away. That means

getting sufficient people there early. Once you've done that the

problem goes away. We didn't get sufficient people there early,

because we didn't have sufficient police officers on the response

teams 24 hours ago. Police community support officers are a

good ideal. A good idea which hasn't worked. These officers

individually may be very good but collectively they can't deal with

this problem. They very expensive. They are not designed to deal with

this type of problem. We need to build up the 24 hour response teams.

We need to remove police officers from the offices. Concentrate on

police officers on the street who can deal with problems. The rest of

the criminal justice system needs to step up and support the Police

Service as well. Could you, as chairman of the Conservative Party,

could you advise Conservative candidates in Croydon, Ealing,

Battersea, all margin of seats which you could win or lose in an

election, to justify your Government's policy of cutting

police budgets by 2.5 billion and increasing overseas aid by �2.7

billion? They are two separate issues. But they are both parts of

the pot of money. Tell them how to justify that. Let me deal with the

two issues separately. In relation to the police budget cuts, let's

not forget this is about 6% in real cash terms. When we keep talking

about billions and trillions it is very important to work this out in

terms of what the police will be losing in real cash terms, and how

they can be sure that the police numbers... The Mayor of London, a

Tory.... He has every right to make a bid for more money, but that was

the decision that was taken. Internationally it is not

particularly popular and not particularly something that

everybody would support. Wouldn't people think it is time to give aid

to Croydon, Ealing and Tottenham and the inner cities of Manchester

and Liverpool? I think you are completely wrong to compare the

famine in Somalia, the floods in Pakistan, all the other programmes,

to what happened in Tottenham. These are two completely different

areas. I think as Conservative Party co-chairman one of the things

I am proud about is the fact that the Conservative Party is saying

that, as a party, we value the fact that despite being in tough

financial circumstances we should stand by the poorest in the world.

Bob Milton, have the police have a loss of confidence? Has there been

a problem of the events of the G20 summit and the policeman, where the

news agent was killed. Absolutely. And complaints about kettling

during the student demonstrations, even though some were quite

violent? Is there a feeling in the police force if we come down too

hard we get thumped, and if we stand back we get thumped?

Absolutely. I'm in contact with young police officers on the street

and they are fearful. They have to think three or four times before

making a decision. This this change this? I think it will. This is a

watershed. If politicians, leaders of the police force and communities

get together, there is an opportunity here to really change

the way we police London and the rest of the country. And the

Government is about to make it worse by getting Boris Johnson who

sacked Commissioners of police and eroded that morale. That is not

true, Charles. I'm sure some people in Ealing and Battersea and

Tottenham wish they had more control over the police on Saturday

night. But not Boris Johnson. leave that to Boris.

The debate about police tactics and numbers centre stage, but what

about the deeper questions, about why these looters and rioters, why

did they take to the streets in the first place? Was it opportunistic?

Yesterday the Prime Minister returned to his broken Britain

theme. He made a lot about nit opposition. He said, "There are

pockets of our society that aren't just broken but are frankly sick."

Harriet Harman struck a more sympathetic tone, citing youth

unemployment and the Education Maintenance Allowance.

She said young people feel they are not being listened to by the

current Government Boris Johnson chose the moment to fire an awkward

shot across the bows of the Government. He said this is not a

time to think about making substantial cuts in police numbers.

Ken Livingstone blamed the rioting on the Government's spending cuts.

The economic stagnation and cuts being imposed by the Tory

Government, he said, inevitably create social division.

So, the political blame game is now well under way. We'll probably get

more of it when we go to Parliament at 11.30. For the moment we are

joined by the BBC's Nick Robinson. Nick, good to see you in August!

Labour's line on this, I'm a little unsure what it is at the moment. It

seemed for a while they were emphasising the law and order

approach. Now we have Harriet Harman, put aside Ken Livingstone,

who is a law under to himself, but Harriet Harman talking about

Government cuts. I think Ed Miliband has been determined to

keep his party talking about one thing - public order. Which is why

he didn't back Ken Livingstone when he seemed to link wit the cuts. He

certainly didn't back Harriet Harman when she, in rather

difficulty language, and she insists she was misquoted by

Newsnight, she seemed to suggest there was a cut in Education

Maintenance Allowance, cuts in koulth services. Is it?

directly. You have to have policies to help aspiration. The idea that

the Government's policies are causing the action on the streets

is wrong. It doesn't help what's happening in inner cities but to

say these events took place because of a Government cut on EMA, that's

wrong. Who was in charge, Warsi works of the country when the riots

began on Saturday night? The Prime Minister was in charge. He was

informed constantly what was happening. He was in Tuscany.

was informed what was happening. The Home Secretary was aware of

what was happening and when he realised things were getting worse

he returned. People do want to know who was in charge. Even if the

Prime Minister was in charge, I understand about modern

communications, and he was only in Tuscany, not that far away, only an

hour's time difference. Where were you? I was in France, but I don't

run the country. Of course not. he was in charge, why did it take

until Tuesday night to get a robust response? Wing we can sit here and

we can talk who was where at what time? What's the answer to my

question? What is moist important is did we make sure that our

streets were protected. You didn't! Did the Prime Minister make sure

the situation was brought under control. Many people would say you

didn't. Why did it take until Tuesday night, so that people in

Tottenham and in Hackney and in Birmingham and Liverpool, Ealing

and so on, by then ordinary shopkeepers had been burnt out of

their premises. If the Prime Minister was running the country on

Saturday night, why did it take until Tuesday night? If you are

saying that if the Prime Minister had been in the country none of

that would have happened, which is what you are suggesting. No, I'm

not making the issue of where he was. I'm asking you, if the Prime

Minister as in charge of the country, why did it take until

Tuesday night? Because, if that's what you are suggesting that the

Prime Minister was not in the country. Just answer the question.

I'm not suggesting anything. are. I will ask it again. If the

Prime Minister was in charge of the country on Saturday night, why did

it take until Tuesday night, after which so much destruction and

ordinary people had their lives shattered y did it take until then.

You can keep eemphasising the question. This was a changing set

of circumstances. We have in the past had public disorder, looting,

robberies and burglaries. What we had on these nights were looting,

robberies and public disorder, widespread, in different areas at

the same time, with gangs using social networking sites, BlackBerry

Messenger and Twitter to get together quickly and move on to a

new area. I'm sure once our streets are safe, once we've moved on from

all of this, of course lots of people will look back at what could

have been done operationally, whether policing would coo have

been done differently. These will have to be answered. Let's admit

not forget the extreme circumstances we found ourselves.

It was right for the Prime Minister to say when he realised this was an

everchanging matter he was in the country and he made sure our

streets were protected. Sundaying morn there was anarchy in

Wood Green. Shops were being looted, people terrorised, with impunity by

Sunday morning it was clear something different was taking

place. Why was there no real This was a constantly changing

situation which the Prime Minister was aware of and when he felt the

matter had got worse, having been in contact constantly throughout

that period, he returned. He took charge and what we should look at

is how we then took charge, how he then made sure that the streets

were protected, the operational changes were made, and people felt

that their streets were protected. We can go over this over and over

again, or we can actually say right now what's the most important thing

is to make sure people feel safe on the streets of London and in other

cities and things get back to normal. People will now make up

their minds whether you have answered the question or not.

have. It's up to the viewer. It's not for me to decide or the you,

the viewers will decide and will let us know in these days of tweets

and e-mails. What's the mood on the Tory backbenches at the moment?

will discover, most of them have been away. I was in Wolverhampton

with the Prime Minister yesterday. What you were talking about there,

there was a debate in Downing Street about whether to bring the

Prime Minister back with some people inside Number 10 concerned

that the act of bringing him home would somehow make it appear more

of a crisis. Bear in mind there are always calls on senior politicians

to come back from holidays and always resistance from them and

their aides because the danger is you set a precedent and you do it

endlessly. There had been calls for the Prime Minister to return

because of the economic crisis before this happened but it's clear

that there are a number of people in Number 10 saying do not bring

David Cameron home, it will make it look worse and eventually those who

were in favour of persuading him to come home did succeed but they now

regret I think they didn't do it sooner. I was trying to raise the

issue of not whether or not the Prime Minister should have come

home or not, that's a matter of judgment, but if as the chairman

has told us the Prime Minister was in charge of the country from

Tuscany, with the help of others, why did it take so long to get a

response? That's an excellent question, the issue is about the

command and control mechanism which is not about where the Prime

Minister is physically. That was my point. The question is what was the

command and control mechanism. I don't understand why COBRA was

brought together over the Prime Minister returned. COBRA could have

been brought together on Sunday or Monday by the Home Secretary or by

another Minister as appropriate, not even necessarily Government

Minister, it could have been a senior official, if it was

necessary to bring together. Presumably the Prime Minister could

have joined by video or phone. easily. I believe the reason

actually is that the scale of the problem wasn't understood by the

Government, possibly even by the Metropolitan Police until as late

as about Monday lunchtime. Isn't there another factor here, which

you will know from your time as Home Secretary, part of the change

in the responsibilities for the Metropolitan Police means nobody's

sure who is in charge, not only do you have an acting Commissioner at

the met, he has two bosses, the Home Secretary and the Mayor of

London, who both happened to be on holiday. There seemed a lack of

clarity. And this was an operational matter and should have

been dealt with by the operational response of people responsible.

It's why I am concerned about the whole question of elected

Commissioners and so on. You have an absolutely clear operational

accountability, without that accountability being consistently

second-guessed, as Boris Johnson done with this police force in

London and led to a morale collapse at the top of the Met meaning a

real absence of leadership at a time when it was needed.

tactics clearly did change later in the week and changed after the

Prime Minister returned, chaired COBRA and the Prime Minister's not

in charge of it at all. You had Kit Malthouse, Boris Johnson's deputy

was in the country dealing with the police, then Boris Johnson returns,

in the end it did appear that tactics consciously changed after

the Prime Minister returned. Let me tell our viewers it's now just

coming up to 25 minutes to 12, you are watching a Daily Politics

special to coincide with the return of parliament. You should be able

to look at it there, it's a packed House. They've all come back from

holidays. We are waiting on the Prime Minister to make his

statement, it will be followed by a statement from the leader of the

opposition and then the Prime Minister will take questions from

backbenchers on both sides. Charles Clarke, a lot of talk about

the traditional forms of social deprivation that can cause social

unrest and so on. If you take Tottenham, I was looking at the

figures, where this all started, I am going to have to hold that

question... We go straight to the House.

The question is as on the order papers. The ayes have it. Statement

from the Prime Minister. Thank you Mr Speaker.

With permission, I would like to make a statement. First of all, let

me thank you Mr Speaker and honourable and right honourable

members for returning. When there are important events in our country

it is right that parliament is recalled and that we show a united

front. I am grateful to the leader of the opposition for the

constructive approach he has taken over the past few days. I have

tried to speak with many of the members whose constituencies have

been affected and I would like to pay particular tribute to the

member for Tottenham for his powerful words and actions over

recent days. What we have seen on the streets of London and in other

cities across our country is completely unacceptable and I am

sure the whole House will join me in condemning it. Keeping people

safe is the first duty of Government. The whole country has

been shocked by the most appalling scenes of people looting, violence,

vandalising and thiefing. It is criminality, pure and simple and

there is absolutely no excuse for it. We have seen houses, offices

and shops raided and torched, police officers assaulted and

firecrews attacked as they tried to put out fires. We have seen people

robbing others while they lie injured and bleeding in the street.

And even three innocent people being deliberately run over and

killed in Birmingham. Mr Speaker, we will not put up with this in our

country. We will not allow a culture of fear to exist on our

streets and we will do whatever it takes to restore law and order and

to rebuild our communities. First we must be clear about the sequence

of events. A week ago today a 29- year-old man named Mark Duggan was

shot dead by the police in Tottenham. Clearly there are

questions that must be answered and I can assure the House that this is

being investigated thoroughly and independently by the Independent

Police Complaints Commission. We must get to the bottom of exactly

what happened and we will. Mr Speaker, initially there were

peaceful demonstrations following Mark Duggan's death and

understandably and appropriately the police were cautious about how

they dealt with this. However, this was then used as an excuse by

opportunistic thugs in gangs, first in Tottenham then across London and

in other cities and it's completely wrong to say there is any

justifiable causal link. It is simply preposterous for anyone to

suggest people looting in Tottenham, days later in Salford were in any

way doing so because of the death of Mark Duggan. The young people

stealing televisions and burning shops, that was not about politics

or protest, it was about theft. Mr Speaker, in recent days individual

police officers have shown incredible bravery and worked in

some cases around the clock without a break and they deserve our

support and our thanks. But what came increasingly clear this week

there was simply far too few police deployed on to our streets and the

tactics they were using weren't working. Police chiefs have been

frank with me about why this happened. Initially the police

treated the situation too much as a public order issue, rather than

essentially one of crime. The truth is that the police have been facing

a new and unique challenge, with different people doing the same

thing basically looting in different places, but all at the

same time. Mr Speaker, to respond to this situation we are acting

decisively to restore order on our streets, to support the victims of

this terrible violence, and to look at the deeper problems that have

led to such a hard core of young people to decide to carry out such

appalling criminality. Let me take each in turn. First, restoring

order. Following the meetings of COBRA which I chaired on Tuesday

and Wednesday and again this morning we have taken decisive

action to help ensure more robust and effective policing. Because of

decisions made by Metropolitan Police Commissioner Tim Godwin and

other police chiefs up and down the country there are more police on

the streets, more people being arrested, and more criminals being

prosecuted. The Metropolitan Police increased the number deployed on

the streets of London from 6,000 to almost 16,000 officers and this

number will remain throughout the weekend. We have also seen large

increases in deployments of officers in other affected areas.

Leave in affected forces has been cancelled. Police officers have

been bussed from forces across the country to areas of greatest need

and many businesses have also quite rightly released special constables

to help and they performed magnificently as well. More than

1200 people have been arrested. We are making technology work for us

by capturing images of the perpetrators on CCTV so even if

they haven't been yet arrested their faces are known and they will

not escape the law. As I said yesterday, no phoney human rights

concerns about publishing photographs will get in the way of

bringing these criminals to justice. Anyone charged with violent

disorder and other serious offences should expect to be remanded in

custody, not let back on the streets. And anyone convicted

should expect to go to jail. Courts in London, Manchester, and the West

Midlands have been sitting through the night and will do so for as

long as is necessary. Magistrates courts have proved effective in

ensuring swift justice. Crown courts are starting to deal with

the most serious of cases. We are keeping under constant review

whether the courts have the necessary sentencing powers that

they need and we will act if necessary. As a result of the

robust and uncompromising measures that have been taken, good progress

is being made in restoring order to the streets of London and other

cities around our country. As I have made clear, nothing should be

off the table, every constingency should be looked at. The police are

also authorised to use baton rounds and while they would not be

appropriate now, we do have in place plans for water cannon to be

available at 24 hours' notice. Some people have raised the issue of the

Army. The acting Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police said to me

that he would rather be the last man left in Scotland Yard with all

his management team out on the streets before he asked for Army

support. That is the right attitude and one I share. But it is the

Government's responsibility to make sure that every future contingency

is looked at, including whether there are tasks that the Army could

undertake that might free up more police for the front front --

frontline. Everyone watching these horrific actions will be struck by

how they were organised by social media. Information can be used for

good, but it can also be used for ill so we are working with the

police, intelligence services and industry to look at whether it

would be right to stop people communicating via these websites

and services when we know they're plotting violence, disorder and

criminality. I have also asked the police if they need any other new

powers. Specifically on face masks, currently they can only ask for

these to be removed in a specific geographical location and for a

limited time. I can announce today that we are going to give the

police the discretion to require the removal of face coverings under

any circumstances where there is reasonable suspicion they're

related to criminal activity. And on dealing with crowds, we are

looking also at the use of the existing des%al powers and with

wider power of curfew is necessary. Mr Speaker, whenever the police

face a new threat they must have the freedom and the confidence to

change tactics as necessary. This Government will always make sure

they have the backing and political support to do so. The fightback has

well and truly begun. But there will be no complacency, and we will

not stop this mindless violence and thuggery is defeated and law and

order is fully restored on all our streets. Let me turn to the

innocent victims. No one will forget the images of the woman

jumping from a burning building, or the furniture shop that had

survived the blitz but now has been tragically burned to the ground.

And everyone will have been impressed by the brave words of

Tariq Jahan, whose son was brutally and tragically run over and killed.

Shops, businesses, homes, too many have been vandalised or destroyed.

And I give the people affected this promise: We will help you repair

the damage, get your businesses back up and running and support

your communities. Let me take each in turn. On repairing the damages I

can confirm that any individual home owner or business that's

suffered damage to, or loss of their buildings, or property as a

result of rioting can seek compensation under the riot damages

Act even if uninsured. The Whereas normally claims must be received

within 14 days, we will extend the period to 42 days. The Association

of British Insurers have said they expect the industry to be paying

out in excess of �200 million and have assured us that claims will be

dealt with as quickly and constructively as possible. On

supporting business, we are we are setting up a new �20 million

support scheme to help affected businesses get back up and running

quickly. And to minimise the cost facing businesses the Government

will enable authorities local to We will defer tax payments for

businesses in greater need. For houses and businesses that have

been most badly damaged we've instructed the valuation office to

stop liability for council tax and business rates. A specific point

was raised with me in Wolverhampton yesterday, that planning

regulations make it difficult for shops to put up protective shutters.

We will weed out unnecessary planning regulations to ensure that

businesses can get back on their feet and feel secure on our high

streets as soon as possible. On supporting local communities, I

can confirm that the Bellwyn scheme to support local authorities will

be parable. However, to support urgent funding we are establishing

a �2 million recovery scheme to support councils to make areas safe,

clean and clear again. The Government will meet the immediate

costs of emergency accommodation for families made homeless by these

disturbance. The Secretaries of State for communities, local

Government and business have made available to the House details of

all those schemes today. The situation continues to evolve and

we will keep any additional support under close review.

Finally, Mr Speaker, let me turn to the deeper problems. Responsibility

for crime always lies with the criminal. MEMBERS: Hear, hear..

These people were all volunteers. They didn't have to do what they

did, and they must suffer the consequences. But crime has a

context, we must not shy away from it. I've said before there's a

major problem in society with children Gloag up not knowing the

difference between right and wrong. This is not about poverty but

culture. A culture that glorifys violence, that shows disrespect to

authority, that knows everything about rights and nothing about

responsibilities. In too many cases the parents, if they are still

around, don't care where their children are or what they are doing.

The possibly consequences have been clear for too long without enough

action being taken. As I said yesterday there is no one step that

can be taken but we need a benefit system that rewards work and is on

the side of families. We need more discipline in our schools, action

to deal with the most disruptive families and a criminal justice

system that score as clear and heavy line between right and wrong.

In short, all action necessary to help mend our broken society. At

the heart of all the violence sits the issue of street gangs.

Territorial, hire ark cal and incredibly violent, they are mostly

composed of young boys, mainly from dysfunctional homes. They earn

money through crime, particularly drugs, and are bound together by an

imposed loyalty to a gang leader. They have blighted life on their

estates with gang on gang murders and proup volcanoed attacks on nebt

bystanders. There is evidence that they've been behind the co-

ordination of attacks on police and the looting that followed. I want

us to use the record of success against gangs from cities like bost

ston in the USA and Strathclyde Police, andened want this to be a

national priority. We've introduced gang injunction and I can announce

today we are going to use them across the whole country for

children and adults. There are further sanctions available beyond

the criminal justice system. Local authorities and landlords already

have tough powers to evict the perpetrators from social housing.

Some local authorities are already doing this. I want to see others

follow their lead. We will consider whether these powers need to be

strengthened further. The I've asked the Home Secretary to work

with the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions and other

colleagues on a cross-Government programme to act on gang come. We

should be looking beyond our shores to learn lessons, and that's why I

shall discuss further with the Commissioner of Police in Los

Angeles. The problem is not just gangs. There were people who saw

shop windows smashed and thought it would be OK to go in and steal. It

is not OK. These people too will have to face the full consequences

of their actions. Mr Speaker, in the past few days

we've seen a range of emotions sweep this country. Anger, fear,

frustration, despair, sadness, and finally a determined resolve that

we will not let a violent few beat us. We saw this resolve in the

people who gathered in Clapham, Manchester, Wolverhampton with

brooms to clean up our streets. We saw any knows that patrol in --

patrolled the roads. Those who protected the Southall temple to.

The law abiding people who play by the rules and are the overwhelming

majority in our country, I stay fight-back has begun. We will

protect you. If you've had your livelihood and property damaged we

will compensate you. We are on your side. To the lawless minority, the

criminals who've taken what they can get, I say this. We will track

you down. We will find you. We will charge you. We will punish you. You

will pay for what you have done. We need to show the world, which has

looked on frankly appalled, that perpetrators of the violence we've

seen on our streets are note in anyway representative of our

country, nor of our young people. We need to show them that we will

address our broken society. We will restore a sense of stronger

morality and responsibility in every town, in every street and in

every estate. And aee away from the Olympics we need to show them the

Britain that doesn't destroy but that builds. That doesn't give up

but stands up, that doesn't look back and always looks forward. I

commend this statement to the house. THE SPEAKER: Ed Miliband.

Speaker, can I thank the Prime Minister for his statement and

thank him for his suggestion to suggest to you, Mr Speaker, that

Parliament was recalled? Whatever dedisagree on, week by week, month

by month, today as a House of Commons we stand shoulder to

shoulder, united against the vandalism and violence we have seen

on our streets. The victims are the innocent people, who live in many

of our cities, who have seen their homes and businesses destroyed.

Their communities damaged. And their confidence about their own

safety undermined. There can be no excuses. No justification. This

behaviour has disgusted us all. It can't be allowed to stand. We will

not allow it to stand. I want to join the Prime Minister in mourning

the loss of life we've seen, including those killed in London

and Birmingham. Our thoughts are with the family and friends of

those who've died. With people like Haroon Jahan. We stand -- people

like Tariq gentleman gentleman. He is the true face of Britain, the

Britain of which we are all proud. I want to thank our brave policemen

and women for the work they've been doing on our behalf, and the

emergency services. We salute them for their courage, their dedication

and their willingness to put themselves in harm's way for all of

us and all our communities. Mr Speaker, thank to them a degree of

order has been re-established on our streets. But from all sides of

this House we know what the public want and are entitled to. A return

to normality as well as order. Normality does not mean shops

having to shut at 3.00pm because they fear looting. Normality does

not mean rushing home because you are scared to be on the streets.

Normality does not mean being fearful in your own home. They want

to have back the most fundamental of all liberties, the ability to go

about their business and lead their lives with security and without

fear. They have a right to expect it and we have a responsibility to

make it happen. Mr Speaker, to do this Parliament needs to do its job.

Uniting against the violence, and being the place where we examine

and debate all the issues involved. How we've got here, what it says

about Britain, and what the response should be. First on

policing, Mr Speaker, on the Army, I agree with what the Prime

Minister said, which is that this is a job for the police. Can he in

his response say what functions he thinks the Army might be able to do

to relieve pressure on the police? Can he also confirm that the

additional operational cost, which are significant, that police are

facing, will be funded from the trez reserve and not place

additional pressure on already stretched budgets? Can he also

confirm that the increased presence on our streets which he said would

remain in place until the weekend, will remain in place beyond the

weekend until the police can be confident that the trouble will not

recur? Mr Speaker, the events of the last few days have been a stark

reminder to us all that police on our streets make our communities

safer and make the public feel safer. Given the absolute priority

the public attach to a visible and active police presence, does the

Prime Minister understand why they will think it is not right that he

goes ahead with the cuts to police numbers? Will he now think again

about this issue? Secondly on criminal gist, the public are clear,

they want to see swift, effective and tough a to send a message about

the penalties and punishment from follow from the violence we've seen.

We must see swift progress from charge to trial in these cases. Can

the Prime Minister confirm there's a capacity within the courts and

among our prosecutors to deal with cases swiftly not just for first

appearance but throughout the trial process, including when people get

to trial. It is right the Crown Prosecution Service is taking into

account the aggravating circumstances within which is

horrendous criminal acts took place. Does the Prime Minister agree that

magistrates and judges need to have those circumstances at the front of

their mind so that those found guilty of this disgraceful

behaviour receive the tough sentences they deserve and the

public expect? As the Prime Minister said, we have also been

reminded about the importance of CCTV in catching those responsible.

So will he undertake to look again at his proposals on CCTV, has been

absolutely sure they in no way hinder bringing criminals to

justice? Third, we need all of our cities back on our feet and

operating as normal. That work began, and I pay tribute to the

heroism of the thousands of volunteers who reclaimed our

streets and showed the true spirit of our cities and our country. I

welcome what the Prime Minister said and the elements of help he

announced. Can he reassure us that the help that's provide Liberal

Democrat meet the need and there won't be an arbitrary cap on the

amount that he announced, if it turns out that further resources

are required? Can he assure us these funds will flow straight away

so that people can rebuild their lives and communities? Fourth, on

the deeper lessons we need to learn, the Prime Minister said in 2006,

understanding the background, the reasons, the causes. It doesn't

mean excusing crime but it will help to tackle it. Mr Speaker, to

seek to explain is not to seek to excuse. Of course these are

arguments of individual criminality. But we all have a duty to ask

ourselves, why are there people who feel they have nothing to lose and

everything to gain from wanton vandalism and looting? We cannot

afford to do this to let this pass, to calm the situation down only to

find ourselves in the same position again in the future. Mr Speaker,

these issues cannot be laid ti door of a single cause or a single

Government. The causes are complex. Simplistic solutions will not

provide the answer. But Mr Speaker, we can only tackle these solutions

by hearing from our communities. What the decent people I met on the

streets of London and Manchester told me, and will tell the Prime

Minister, is they want their voice to be heard. They want us to go out

and listen to them in thinking about the solutions that are

necessary. And before saying any of us we know all the answers, or have

simple solutions, we should all do so. The Prime Minister explain how

those in areas affect Liberal Democrat have their voice heard, as

the Government seeks to find solutions to the issues we've seen?

Will the Prime Minister agree there must be a full independent

Commission of Inquiry, swiftly looking at what happened in recent

days and the lessons that need to will be learned. Not an inquiry in

Whitehall but reaching out and listening to those affected, the

decent law abiding majority affected by these terrible events?

They deserve and need to be heard. Mr Speaker, we need look at and act

on all the issues that matter. The responsibility we need from top to

bottom in our society, including parental responsibility. And an end

to a take what you can culture which needs to change from the

benefits office to the boardroom. The Prime Minister is right, we

need a sustained efforts to tackle the gangs in our cities. Something

we did know about before the riots. Will the Prime Minister look

urgently at the Youth Justice Board report published last June which

had a whole series of recommendations about what the

Government should be doing to tackle gang culture? And of course,

Mr Speaker, as we look at the solutions we need, questions of

hope and aspiration are relevant. The provision of opportunities to

get on in life which don't involve illegality and wrongdoing. When we

talk about responsibility we must not forget ours. Not to the tiny

minority who did the violence but the vast majority of law-abiding

young people. They are a generation. This is not about any one

Government worried and their prospects, and we can't afford to

fail them. We can't afford to have the next generation believe they

are going to do worse than the last. They should be able to do better.

That's the promise of Britain they have a right to expect. Mr Speaker,

let me say in conclusion, successful societies are built on

an ethic of hard work, compassion, solidarity and looking after each

other. Ours must be one society. We all bear a share of responsibility

for what happens within it. It is right that we came back to debate

these issues. It is right that public order must be paramount. But

it is also imperative that even after order and normality are

restored we do not ignore the lessons. We can't afford to move on

and forget. For all the people who've been in fear this week, for

those who've lost loved ones, homes and businesses, we owe a duty to

ensure no repeat of what we've seen. That is our responsibility to the

victims. It is our responsibility to the country. And we on this side

will play our part in making it First of all, can I thank the right

honourable gentleman for what he said today and also what he said in

recent days and if I can say the way in which he has said it. He

made a number of points. First of all, he is right to praise the

emergency services and the work they've done. It's particularly

remarkable that in spite of the fact that fires have been started

in many cities across our country, there have been no casualties from

those fires and I think that speaks volumes about the professionalism

and brilliance of our firefighters nationwide. He rightly says that

it's important that as soon as possible we get our high streets,

our cities, our towns back to a real sense of normality. I would

say first of all that has to start with this increased police presence

so people feel the confidence to go out and to enjoy their towns and

cities and I believe that will happen so that our cities become

the great and bustling places we want them to be. He asked questions

about police, about courts, communities and the deeper lessons.

Let me say a word about each. On the police, what I said about the

Army, I choose my words carefully, none of us want to see a break away

from the great British model of policing where the public are the

police and the police are the public. But I do think that

governments have a responsibility to try and look ahead at

contingencies and potential problems and start asking potential

problems and difficulties in advance and that's exactly what

COBRA has done, in terms of simply asking if there were tasks for

instance, simple tasks that could be done that would free up police

for more frontline duties. This is not for today or even for tomorrow,

it's just so you have contingency plans in case it became necessary.

He asked about operational costs, the Treasury reserve is being used.

He asked about policing numbers beyond the weekend. Deployment must

be an issue and a matter for police chiefs. They will want to assess

the intelligence and the situation before making those decisions, but

as far as the Government is concerned they should feel free to

deploy as many police as they need for as long as they need. What

matters most of all, more than anything else, is restoring order

on our streets. He raised the issue of police budgets and I am sure

this will be debated. Let me make a couple of points. What we are

saying over the next four years, we are looking for cash reductions in

policing budgets, once you take into account the fact there is a

preset that helps fund the police of 6% reductions over the next four

years, I believe that is totally achievable without any reductions

in visible policing and - a growing number of police chiefs are making

that point. Let me make two additional points on this. Today we

still have 7,000 trained police officers in back office jobs, part

of our programme of police reform is about freeing up police for

frontline duties and that's why I can make this very clear pledge to

the House, at the end of this process of making sure our police

budgets are affordable we will still be able to surge as many

police on to the streets as we have in recent days in London, in

Wolverhampton, in Manchester, and I do think this is important people

understand that. He asked about the courts system and whether we are

able to surge capacity in our magistrates and Crown courts, yes

that is exactly what COBRA has been asking for in recent days. On

sentencing I choose my words very carefully, of course it's a matter

for courts to sentence, but if you look at what the sentencing council

says those people found guilty of violence on our streets should

expect to have a custodial sentence. He asked questions about CCTV, we

fully support CCTV. We want to regulate it to make sure it is used

properly, but it has been immensely valuable as I have seen for myself

in police control rooms up and down the country. He asked about in

terms of communities whether there would be any cap on the Monday

that's available for -- money available. Of course the Act

doesn't have any any cap and because we are allowing the 42-day

period people will be able to apply and the Government will stand

behind the police. When it comes to the deeper lessons, I think he is

right, he quoted a speech I made, I said it's explaining doesn't mean

excusing and he is right to say the causes are complex. I hope that in

the debates we have the causes don't immediately fall into a

tiresome discussion about resources, when you have deep moral fail

failures you don't hit them with a wall of money. It's right, the key

word that he used and that I used is the issue of responsibility.

People must be responsible for their actions, we are all

responsible for what we do. Finally he asked about the question of how

we will listen to communities and what sort of inquiry is necessary.

I think in the first instance, and I found this from talking to many

members of parliament on both sides of the House of Commons who are

deeply in touch with their communities, in touch with their

police forces and police chiefs, that one of the first things we can

do in this House is properly bring to bear all the information that we

are hearing from our communities and I understand that the home

affairs select committee is going to hold an inquiry and I think we

should try and ask a parliamentary inquiry to do this work first and

on - I thank him for the general tone of what he says and I hope we

can keep up this cross-party working as we deal with this

difficult problem. Why have our police been dispersing

these hoods so that they can riot in other vicinities, instead of

rounding them up? Does the Prime Minister remember that in 1971 at

the peak of the opposition to the Vietnam war in the United States,

that the US Government bought 16,000 troops in to Washington in

addition to the police, that they rounded up the rioters, they

arrested them, and they put 40,000 of them into the DC stadium in one

morning. Has he any plans to make the Wembley Stadium available for

similar use? I want the Wembley Stadium to be available for great

sporting events. It's important that as we get back to a sense of

normality those sporting events go ahead. Let me make this point,

because the right honourable gentleman does ask an important

point, which to be fair to the police and all of us should think

carefully before we start criticising police tactics when

they are the ones in the frontline. To be fair to the police, they now

say that I think to begin with they spent too much time concentrating

on the public order aspects and not enough on the criminal kpwreut as -

- criminality aspects and it's been the greater police presence on the

streets and the greater arresting of people that's helped to bring

this situation under control and I think the police themselves, one

chief said to me yesterday it's time to tear up some of the manual

about public order and restart it. He said we have done this many

times before in the police, we will do it again and we will get it

right. It's in that spirit that we should praise British policing.

Order. A great number of colleagues are trying to catch my eye. I issue

my usually exortation for briefity. Can I I welcome what the Prime

Minister said about the death of Mark Duggan and indeed about the

compensation for victims. 45 people have lost their homes in Tottenham,

burnt to the ground, running out of their homes carrying their children

in their arms and their cry is where were the police? We can have

this debate today, but it is no replacement for hearing from the

people themselves. Will the Prime Minister come to Tottenham and

speak to those victims and indeed to the independent shopkeepers,

hairdressers and jewellers whose businesses are lying in cinders?

And will he also commit to a public inquiry that looks at why initial

skirmishes were allowed to lead to a situation in which the great

Roman Road of Tottenham High Road is in cinders? I will certainly

take up the invitation to go to Tottenham and hear for myself. I

found in the visit I made to Croydon real anger on the streets

about what happened, about how it could be allowed to happen and yes,

a lot of questioning of the police tactics and the police presence. As

I said in my statement, to be fair to the police I think to begin with

because of the situation with Mark Duggan they were hanging back for a

very good reason. But they clearly understand and they accept that

that went on for too long and the police presence needed to be

greater and it needed to be more robust and needed to be protecting

people's homes and shops and people's houses. We will now do

everything we possibly can to get those people rehoused quickly, to

make sure that money is available, and I know my honourable friend has

been in touch with almost all the leaders affected. In terms of the

inquiry and what inquiries are necessary I think we should start

with the home affairs select committee inquiry and let's let

them do their work and let's take it from there.

Will the Prime Minister encourage media organisations to immediate

release -- immediately release all unseen footage of criminal

behaviour to assist the police in bringing criminals to justice?

will certainly do that. I was impressed in the control room of

the West Midlands Police and emergency services yesterday, how

amateur photographers have been sending in footage to help the

police to arrest those that were guilty. As has been said today,

everyone has a responsibility. Media organisations have a

responsibility too and I hope they will act on it. Mr Speaker, no one

disputes for a second the Prime Minister's determination to meet

what he describes as the first duty of Government to keep the streets

safe, but will he not understand that his repetition of what amounts

to Treasury lines about police numbers and police budgets and also

prison numbers sounds very complacent and could I beg of him

to recognise a reality that these cuts will lead to fewer police on

the streets, but also that he must reverse the softer sentencing plans

of his Justice Secretary and stop the ludicrous plan the Justice

Secretary has to close prisons when there is now patently an urgent

need for more prison places? First of all, I don't accept what he says

about police numbers and indeed neither do Chief Constables. Many

Chief Constables, if I take the Chief Constable of the Thames

Valley, what she said is what I haven't done at all is reduce the

number of officers who do the patrol functions, so the officers

you see in vehicles on foot, in uniforms on bicycles, we haven't

cut those numbers. I think one of the things that was demonstrated by

the last three days in the Met, where we have 32,000 officers, is

actually they could take the action to surge from 3,000 on the streets,

to 16,000 on the streets. I think that's a demonstration of using

what you have to maximum effect. While Metropolitan Police Officers

showed great courage and determination, will the Prime

Minister agree with my concern that there were reports that police

officers on several occasions were instructed to stand and observe

rioting and looting that was taking place? Would he agree with me that

cannot be acceptable behaviour and that if the police perhaps for

understandable reasons for concerned because of the

controversies after the G20 summit that they might be criticised for

overreacting, there is an urgent need for fresh guidelines so that

there is noam by tkpwaouity that's it's the police and not looters and

rioters that will control our streets?

He makes a good point. Obviously we will be looking again at the

guidance. Let me be clear, there was no instruction to police

officers to stand back but as I have said, and I think police

chiefs have been very frank about this, that the balance between what

is right for public order, and what is right for stopping criminality,

looting and thiefing, that balance wasn't got right to start with.

They admit that. They accept that. But they were, to be fair to the

police, who do this very difficult job on all our behalf, they were

facing a new set of circumstances. Yes, they've had riots before, yes

they've had looting before, yes there's been violence and vandalism

before but we haven't in our country before had the same thing

happening in different places with different people all doing it at

the same time. That was a challenge for them, a challenge I believe

they're now meeting excellently, but they didn't get everything

right to start with and they're the first to admit that. I am grateful

to the Prime Minister for his telephone call yesterday, but what

happened in Salford on Tuesday night was not about protest, it was

about deliberate organised violent criminality. Will the Prime

Minister give his full backing to the police to intervene in these

circumstances because it was the case that some officers had

instructions where they didn't have riot gear, where they weren't

trained, that they had to stand by and watch what happened. The effect

on public confidence is devastating. Will he ensure that the police have

that backing and that confidence, review that guidance so that never

again do we see the police fall back in the face of a violent mob

as we saw on our streets? She knows this issue well and

discussed this with the chief Chief Constable of Greater Manchester.

Khaoerl what happen -- khaoerl what happened was unacceptable. I expect

the gangs and criminals saw it as an opportunity to reassert

themselves. All these lessons must be learned. I know the Greater

Manchester police chief chief who I have spoken to, wants to learn

those lessons. It's not right ever to cede control of our streets to

hooligans which happened briefly in Salford but we have to judge, we

have to to wrest with the operational judgment of police

chiefs when they're on the streets but the time to learn lessons is

Can I commend the Prime Minister for his decision on action on

gangs? But I would like to raise another issue with him. He quite

rightly raised or told the House about the fact the whole country

was moved by the dignified words of the father of Haroon Jahan

yesterday. When the father made those comments he did so against

the background of ethnic tension and managed to calm the

circumstances then. There's a risk that evil-minded people will try to

use these conflicts to try to raise further ethnic conflicts in future.

Is the Government going to take action with the communities to make

sure that is not done? Government will certainly do that.

I was in Birmingham yesterday and joined a meeting of community

leaders from all religions, all creeds, all races, who came

together to make sure that the communities did not respond in an

inappropriate way to the dreadful events that had happened. I pay

tribute to the Chief Constable of the West Midlands forest, to the

leader of Birmingham City Council, and all those people who from their

meeting went to their communities and appealed for calm. The scenes

we saw on our television screens last night of communities coming

together in Birmingham to try to stop violence taking place was a

model of how these things should be done. What justification can there

be in the West Midlands, bearing in mind what the Prime Minister just

said, for very experienced police officers who have served 30 years

or more being forced to retire against their wishes because of the

cuts? Isn't at this time case, where there is no adequate police

presence, as has been the case once or twice unfortunately during the

last few days, it is the mob that takes over? I think the honourable

gentleman is entirely right. When I was in Wolverhampton yesterday,

what I heard was that the number of police officers was something like

doubling overnight compared with the previous night. I suspect the

same was happening in Walsall, West Brom itch and other parts of the

West Midlands. One of the lessons we need to learn is the ability to

surge the number of police officers rapidly in our communities when

problems arise like this. Let me say again. The police do a

difficult and dangerous job on our behalf. They learn from experience.

They are hugely experienced at dealing with difficult situations.

We must praise them when they get it right. We must say that some of

the tactics need to change, but not substitute our judgment for theirs.

That wouldn't be a sensible approach. My constituents and I

witnessed some shocking events in Enfield on Sunday and Monday. But

what was particularly shocking was the age of a number of the cull

In the incidents that Would the Prime Minister assure me that he

could ask the police authorities to work with the education authorities

in an attempt to identify many of the secondary schoolchildren who

were out there causing these crimes? I certainly think that's a

sensible suggestion, but over and above that we have to recognise

that the responsibility for the fact some of these children, and I

use the word children individualsedly, rests with their

parents. We need to have a sense that parents are going to take more

responsibility for their children, teach them the difference between

right and wrong and point out the that behaviour is unacceptable.

is undeniable that these criminals who looted, stole, rioted, caused

intolerable damage to the people who are the victims of this, must

be dealt with by the police by the justice system. What I want to ask

the Prime Minister is, do we regard these people, however abject their

acts, as ir reclaimable to society, at great cost to the police, the

justice system and prison system, or will we have positive policies

to try, if possible, to reclaim them for society? I agree with the

right honourable gentleman, we must never write people off, however bad

they are. We must try and build a stronger society where you can turn

people's lives around. I think one of the lessons from this is too

many people have been left for too long. We need much earlier

intervention. This is something where members on all sides of the

House have spoken about, so when we see children going wrong we

intervene earlier rather than leaving them to fall out of school

and lapse into a life of criminality. If these riots had

broken out in any city or town in Australia or America, the police

would have had at their instant disposal water cannon, plastic

bullets and tear gas. Across the UK British people watched on

television while police were instructed to stand back, while

shops were looted, homes or torched and cars set on fire. Does the

Prime Minister really believe that 24 hours' notice of the US of water

cannon is enough? Is it not that this is not about police numbers

but about police being given the troops to do the job? First of all

let me say to the honourable lady that the police do have access to

baton rounds and they are able to make that decision to use them. In

London they came quite close to making that decision. That must be

an operational decision for the police. On the issue of water

cannon, the very strong advice from the police is that, because on the

whole they weren't dealing with very large crowds but very mobile

crowds of people Hoare were intent on criminal behaviour, water cannon

wouldn't have been appropriate in these circumstances. That's the

police view. The point very made is that we should be ready for every

possible contingency in the future, so we should know how we would

answer future questions, which is why they are now available at 24

hours' notice. I don't agree with her, I think the greatest possible

deterrent to the sort of lawlessness we saw, is for people

to know if they do that looting or violence they will be pulled out of

that crowd, arrested immediately and be in front of a court that

night. That is the answer. The Dee that is more police on the streets,

so they are able to be more robust in the way that they intervene.

I welcome all the steps taken by the Prime Minister since the start

of these disorders and join with him and others in condemning the

criminality and also praising the police? I, like he, was out on the

streets of London yesterday. The key issue was police visibility. Is

he saying that, if a police force has to dip into their con tinge sis

in order to pay for what has been going on over the last few days

that the Government will reimburse all this money? Can I thank the

right honourable gentleman for what he said and the work his committee

will be doing in the coming weeks? The Treasury is standing ready to

assist police forces. The bill for the Metropolitan Police will be

large. If they continue to deploy in these numbers lit get larger and

the Treasury will stand behind that. Those of news the communities

affected give our thanks to the police and the emergency services.

But are conscious if the best deterrent is being caught, the

police have a minority of their officers trained and able to use

riot head gather and equipment. Can he look at that being reverse sod

most police officers can act and intervene, and make sure the full

force of the law doesn't good on the 50 per community, the serial

communities, but adults with children who were going into the

shops and nicking stuff, not just the children, to whom they are

meant to be sitting an dismal the first point, yes of course

there'll be a proper review in terms of what is the right balance

between riot police and nor borough police sog we meet these

emergencies were in future. In terms of prosecuting the guilty,

the police should go after everybody. They've got the CCTV

images. People all over the country are ringing up and explaining their

neighbour has I qired a new 42 inch Palace ma screen. I would ask more

people to do that. The people of Liverpool are united in their

absolute condemnation of the criminal acts that wreaked so much

havoc and caused so much fear in parts of Liverpool over the last

few days. But what specific arrangements has the Prime Minister

made to enable to city and indeed others who have suffered similarly

to be able to be assisted in a swift recovery? I pay tribute to

the honourable lady for speaking on behalf of Liverpool, which too

suffered in terms of this violent disorder. Liverpool will be able to

apply not only through the Bellwin scheme but through this new special

scheme which doesn't have a threshold you need to cross to

claim payments. The riot damages Act is effectively unlimited in the

claims you can make. The Home Office will stand behind police

forces. There'll be written statements in the House today so

she can see details and share them with her council leader. I know

Prime Minister will agree that we in Britain still have the best

police force in the world. However, will he agree with he that's time

that the police were refocused back to being crime fighters instead of

social workers? I think the police have the clearest possible message,

that we want them to be a police force, we want them to be focused

on crime. We don't want them fighting paper behind their desk.

They have had a clear message from the whole country this week that

people want visible policing and robust policing too. The Prime

Minister will be as pleased as I am there's been no rioting or looting

in South Shields. He has rightly praised the independence, the

professionalism of the Chief Constables why. Therefore does he

wants the get rid of them all and make them stand for election?

are not proposing to make Chief Constables stand for election. What

we are proposing is to have police commissioners stand for election,

replacing police authorities. The point I would make is this, that in

recent days, in recent days I think the argument that yes you have out

police Chief Constables, yes they have to be responsible for their

judgments, but it is important they are accountable politically.

There's a discussion that can take place between politicians and

police chiefs is a good one. Ealing town centre was badly smashed up on

Monday night. A man is critically ill in hospital, having been

attacked by a yob when he tried to put out a fire in a litter bin.

Morale was slightly lifted when the Prime Minister said that those big

enough to take part in the protests are big enough to take the

consequence. Can he ashaur that those found guilty will feel the

full force of the law, including prison sentences? Yes, can I give

her that assurance. I want to thank her for the briefing she gave me of

what had been happening in Ealing on Monday night. The sentences must

be a matter for the courts but the sentencing guidelines council is

clear that people taking part in violent disorder should expect to

go to prison. Can I invite the Prime Minister to join me and the

people of Walthamstow not only in putting on the record our gratitude

to the police who work sod hard to restore calm to our streets, but

the outreach and community workers Hoare have been out every night

talking too people to reduce the tension and restore order on our

streets, in partnership with the police? Can I invite him to meet

with those people to understand it is not tiresome and we must learn

from their experience in restoring order every day in our communities

across the country? I will certainly will happy to meet with

the honourable lady. The point she makes that reclaiming the streets

is not just an issue for the police but for everybody I think is

absolutely right. We've seen fantastic examples of that across

our country. The point I was trying to make about resources, of course

resources will be debated in the debate that follows later, but I

hope also we can have a debate about some of the culture, the

upbringing, the parenting and the deeper point that lie behind these

problems. Mr Speaker, frontline officers were telling me last night

they've been afraid to use a measure of physical force because

of concerns about criticisms by members of Parliament, which

they've seen before. When the Prime Minister said we'll be robust and

too whatever it takes, can he assure us that members of the House

will support the police if they have to strike be batons or kettle

them in? Force has to be met with greater force. I know the

honourable gentleman serves as a Special Constable himself. People

do want to have robust policing. Of course the police have to be

sensitive to things that have happened in the past. Sometimes the

pendulum can swing too far one way and too far the other. I'm sure

message is loud and clear, that when there is this sort of violent

criminal behaviour, people want a robust support. The Prime Minister

has talked about the role played by gangs and technology the disorder

that has taken place over the last week. Does he share my concern

about the popularity and accessibility of internet footage

glorifying gangs and knives? And what will he do to ensure that

these despicable videos are taken down? I think honourable lady

speaks powerfully for Lewisham, her constituency, and on this issue,

where frankly everyone has responsibility, not just members of

Parliament, police, parents but media companies and social media

companies, who are displaying these images. All of them should think

about their responsibilities and taking down those images. That's

why the Home Secretary is going to have meetings to see what more can

be done. Can he reassure me and my

constituents that we are not just going to see a temporary change in

police tactics and visibility but a permanent one?

I thank the honourable gentleman for what he did to introduce me to

some of the shopkeepers and affected home owners in his

constituency, some of whom have been made homeless. One of the

things that's been demonstrated is the importance of surging police

numbers quickly. There are 32,000 officers in the Met and having just

3,000 on the streets on Monday, - on Sunday, 6,000 on Monday, wasn't

enough, that's why action was taken to increase it and I am sure

lessons will be learned in that regard.

We are leaving the House of Commons now, if you want to continue

watching the debate and question and answer session you can do so by

switching to the BBC News channel or the BBC parliament channel. You

are watching a special edition of the Daily Politics here on BBC2 as

parliament has been recalled for an emergency session following the

riots in London and other English cities over the past few days. In

his statement to the Commons and the nation the Prime Minister had a

message for those who have been harmed by the riots, we are on your

side, he told the country, and for those who took part in the riots, I

paraphrase, he used a version of what Mr Reagan once said about

terrorists, you can run but you cannot hide. The Prime Minister

admitted that the police got the balance wrong at the start of these

riots, they should have gone in harderment he -- harder. He says

they admit that themselves but they're now on top of matters. The

leader of the opposition, Ed Miliband, responded with a number

of questions. It was a pretty bipartisan House that met today,

there wasn't a lot of party political points scoring. The only

sense of disagreement between both sides was when the Prime Minister

argued that you can cut police budgets but still keep the number

of police required on the streets without harming that. The leader of

the opposition said he wanted an inquiry into what had happened but

an inquiry that involved not listening to experts in Whitehall

but listened to those who had been victims and sufferers of violence

over the past few days. With me Conservative deputy chairman

Michael Fallon and Sayeeda Warsi had to leave us to listen to an

equivalent statement in the House of Lords. And we still have the

former Labour Home Secretary Charles Clarke and the BBC's

political editor Nick Robinson. Give me an overview of what you

have seen. I was struck, as you have said, by the tone really. I

expected it, I thought the House would want to send a unified

statement, but we have listened to a lot of contributions and I

thought by now someone might have raised a slightly discordant note,

they've not. What's striking is a shift in the mood about police

tactics and a shift in the mood about the desire for tougher

measures, so you have had criticisms from a former Home

Secretary, Jack Straw, echoing those made by by Charles Clarke

here and really you are hearing voices on Labour benches and

Conservative Party benches and even from Simon Hughes on the Liberal

Democrats benches which is surprising, essentially calling for

the police to act tougher, for the courts to sentence for longer, and