22/09/2011 Daily Politics

Afternoon, folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics. We are back from

Birmingham and not an emergency motion or a warm glass of cheap

white wine in sight! But it is not all good news. The economy is back

in intensive care and the Bank of England is preparing for emergency

action. Again! But what, if anything, will reassure the

markets? The Travellers of Dale Farm await tomorrow's High Court

decision. If it goes against them, they face eviction. The leader of

the council will join us. And, David Cameron is in America, urging

all and sundry to visit this country? So what slogan is he using

to sell Broken Britain to the Yanks? Will Cool Britannia ride

And with us for the duration, Toby Young, former writer for the Modern

Review and Vanity Fair. And now the co-founder of the West London Free

School, which has just opened in Welcome to the programme. So, first

up, Toby. You are the man who persuaded Vanity Fair to do that

big splash on Cool Britannia. Take a look at all these. This is the

new advertising campaign David Cameron is launching in New York.

The slogan - is GREAT - in capital letters - Britain - You're invited.

These are some of the posters. Not quite the broken Britain theme he's

What do you think? They looked OK. When we had the conversation at

Vanity Fair, we were sitting around the table, trying to persuade them

that Britain was back. They imagined that detecting where does

zeitgeist did, the forensic scientific process, divining rods

and putting up antennae, it is about whether you can say it

confidently enough. If you can do that make you can persuade

everybody it is back and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Does it

have the better bring about it, Cool Britannia? Great Britain has

been around for longer. Americans refer to us as Great Britain.

this a slightly different thing? Great Britain is being sold to the

Americans. Cool Britannia was a mark-making politics cool as well.

It was about Number 10 getting involved. -- about making. Tony

Blair hesitated about being photographed by Vanity Fair. It was

before he had been elected. It came up at the beginning of 1997, just

before the election. John Major could have claimed credit for

having created this phenomenon. He was the Prime Minister at the time.

Tony Blair was talking about, wouldn't we be crediting John Major

with it? In the end he was persuaded that Labour would be

profiting in this. I did not realise about John Major being the

true architect of Cool Britannia. There was a sense of optimism in

1997. The economy was on the rise. The economy was going well and

there was a lot of creativity going on in the British culture. That is

true. That certainly does not seem to be as pronounced now. I think

that, given the Olympics are coming up, and things are pretty grim in

America as well, I do not think that tourism will fall of next year.

There were the riots. They talked about Britain having a broken

society. It seems incongruous to say, it is great here. Parts of

society can be broken but overall it is a great country. What can we

expect any Prime Minister - a Labour, Liberal or conservative -

to do? Do not think the broken society bit is overplayed? I'm not

sure how widely that is played abroad. The Government of trying to

do something to restore confidence in Britain in the wake of the riots.

Can you remember where that phrase came from, Cool Britannia? I do not

know. It came from a band. They coined the phrase. I can assure you,

they were not cool. You had all their records, didn't you? I did.

I'm not singing any of them. The Business Secretary, Vince Cable,

gave a pretty gloomy assessment of our economic prospects at his party

conference. It is all grey skies ahead, he warned. There are no

sunny uplands in sight. In fact, he told us all to don our flak jackets

and tin hats. This, he said, is war. We now face a crisis that is the

economic equivalent of war and this is not a time for business as usual

or politics as usual. You never mistake him for a rate of sunshine.

The International Monetary Fund has been warning that the world economy

is entering a dangerous new phase. Well, last night, the Americans

launched Operation Twist - a $400 billion offensive, trying to

prevent the world's biggest economy sliding back into recession. The

Federal Reserve hopes the new campaign can prevent a dangerous

phase turning into a full-scale slump. In Europe, Greece is still

in retreat. Prime Minister George Papandreou is still trying to

negotiate another �96 billion to get the country through the next

month or two. Economic growth forecasts in the Eurozone have been

slashed. Down from 2% to 1.6%. But some think even that might turn out

to be optimistic. And here at home, growth forecasts are also on the

slide. Down from 1.5% to 1.1%. Down again for the third time in a year.

The IMF is normally pretty keen on cutting back deficits. But this

lack of growth has got it worried. Because if there is no growth,

there is not much in the way of tax receipts. And paying off the

deficit gets more difficult still. In a recent report, the IMF said

that if this goes on, David Cameron and Angela Merkel should consider

delaying some of their planned adjustment in Britain and Germany.

That's IMF speak for easing back on the cuts. And we now know that the

Bank of England came close to ordering a second round of what is

called quantitative easing at their meeting last month. That's printing

money and spreading it around to you and me. The papers are calling

it Operation QE2. So, that's Vince Cable's war crisis. And it most

certainly won't be over by Christmas. With us now is the

Shadow Business minister, Labour's Chuka Umunna. And for the

Conservatives, Matt Hancock - a former Bank of England economist

and ex chief of staff to George Osborne. He is just a humble MP

these days. His career has obviously hit the buffers. Under

the last Labour but -- government, when the printing of money was

beginning, George Osborne said, printing money is the last resort

of desperate governments, when all other policies have failed. So,

you're desperate and all other policies have failed... Gordon

Brown certainly got us into a desperate state. At the root of

this is the debt crisis. We need to understand this is a debt crisis

before we can think about how to get out of it. We have the highest

amount of debt as a proportion of our income of any major government

in a country ever. We know that. Buy your own words, although George

Osborne said them, I suspect they are your words, you wrote them, the

fact we now seem to be heading for a second round of quantitative

easing is a sign that all your existing policies have failed and

that we are desperate. Well, we were in a desperate situation.

are in it again? Look at what is going on around the world! In the

euro area they have a debt crisis and a cordon Asian crisis of have

to get out of it. The Americans are in a very difficult position. What

we do have here is a clear plan to tackle the debt. We have always

been straightforward about the fact that the best way out of the debt

crisis is to face the debt - have a plan to do with them - and allow

monetary policy to act and keep the economy going on the right track.

It is up to the Bank of England. As the minutes yesterday showed they

have talking about whether they need to do quantitative easing.

Labour position is that spending has been cut by too much, too

quickly. Is that a rough summary? That is right. If you look at the

figures we got from the ONS last week, as a result of that, 111,000

jobs further weight in the public sector. Only 41,000 where created

in the private sector. Let me ask you this, if I have categorised the

position correctly. I had two further questions. By how much has

government spending been cut in the current year and how much would you

cut it? I cannot give you the exact figure for the current year.

cannot. I will give it to them. Government spending in this

financial year - 2011/2012 - has been cut in total by 0.7%. By how

much less would you cut it? As I said, I am not able to give you the

exact figure. That is not much anyway. You're looking at a

proportion of GDP. No, overall public spending. Are you really

saying that is too much, too quickly? There is still a big

difference between what we're proposing and they are proposing.

They are imposing �10 million more of taxes in the form of the VAT

rise. That will cost about �450 a year. You have got them to-ing �30

million more worth of cuts. Would you not do these cuts? -- �230

million. Public spending is only going down by 0.7% this year. It

seems you have not got much latitude to do less. It is not

being cut by much anyway. Would you cut it a tall and increase

spending? I cannot give you a specific figure. -- at all. We

would look to reduce the deficit - half the deficit - over the course

of the parliament instead of eliminating it. The big thing that

is affecting the economy at the moment is conflict. It is the

question of what people think will happen in the future. I do not

think there will be much confidence. The Spending Review was announced

in October of last year. We saw confidence nosedived -- nosedive.

We were talking about the international context. We have seen

our economies claimed more than any other country in the G7, apart from

Japan, which of course had the earthquake. We are seeing a

detrimental impact on the economy. In the last quarter, it was not

good but UK growth was the second- fastest in the GDP. You are talking

about decimal points. It was 0.2%. You do not get confidence by not

having a plan. He cannot tell you what the Labour Party plan is.

me hear from Toby Young. I will give you some decimal points. The

IMF did revise down its forecast by 0.1%. It also revised down the

spend forecast -- Spain will cost to 0.8% and the Italian broadcast

by 0.6%. -- forecast. There is no major Western economy in which you

can have great confidence, with the possible exception of Germany.

we just rise above this petty point-scoring? Any of us can do

that. There is a very serious crisis going on. It is very serious

in the eurozone. It is very serious in America. Far better is to have a

plan that involves all of the... Having a plan to get to deal with

government debts but also allowing the economy to be managed by the

Bank of England. That is a very clear plan this government has. In

this great crisis... Tell me one major economic indicator for this

The business investment has been doing better than others. It is on

it back. This morning, there was a survey of manufacturing

expectations, which was reasonably positive. Let's not say it...

working? You need a plan that will work. We have seen record borrowing

in August, and you have seen... should be in favour of that, so why

are you complaining? Matthew has been saying they have a plan and it

is working, and that is to reduce the deficit by a large amount. But

it isn't working. In the last year of the Labour government, borrowing

came in �20 billion lower than forecast, because the last Labour

government had a plan and it was working. The golden economic

heritage. We are going to have to leave it there. You got the last

word in! OK, I'll do it!

It is often said that politicians need thick skins, not least when

accused of things they wish they hadn't done in their youth. 15

years ago, some things, particularly admitting taking drugs,

might have wrecked a promising career. Is that still true today,

or does it matter less these days? Dear, oh dear, oh dear. The things

people get up to. And how gleefully it is reported, and how we shake

our heads. Or do we? You see, with these now infamous allegations

about Chancellor George Osborne, the dominatrix call girl and

cocaine, allegations he has always strongly denied, we haven't

actually had legions of calls for his resignation, or to hang his

head in shame. In fact, all we have had his some rather bad political

teasing. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has lashed himself to the

mast. Non for the first time, perhaps.

heard that George Osborne is keen to get on the show as well. He

wants to do a line dance. When you have stitched up your sides, ask

yourself this. Have we, as an electorate, accepted the President

of Jacqui Smith in 2007, the first serving Home Secretary to admit she

smoked cannabis as a student. 40 years earlier, the position David

Cameron took when asked about drugs. I didn't spend the early years of

my life thinking, I better not do anything because one day I might be

a politician, because I didn't know I might be a politician. I haven't

answered the question because I think it is all in the past and I

don't think you have to answer it. Louise Mensch dealt with

allegations she took drugs with a humorously frank response.

Basically admitting it. It is the cover-up that will kill a

politician, not the crime. The public want to see be honest, it is

better to be honest and cover it up and admit it three years later. It

was a long time ago, I said it was the idiotic behaviour of youth, but

there are awful lot of people, politicians, broadcasters, probably

judges, who have had the same peccadilloes in their youth and

have grown out of it, and I genuinely believe the public does

Top I don't think it is less on morality. In fact it is rather more

on variety. People want to know where a key -- on morality. People

want to know why politician stands on global warming, capital

punishment, but they are not so bothered about those ordinary

private life things. If the defence of youth is one we now accept,

where is the cut-off? I can't say where youth ends, but it is like

the famous definition of pornography by the Supreme Court

justice, I know it when I see it. At some point, you are regarded you

should have done your growing up, I can't say when that is. The key

cut-off point is when you enter public life and stand for office,

and your legislating on things like drugs legislation. You can do it in

your youth but not when you are a politician. Amidst this story, you

might have expected me to make some bad puns along the lines of

government whips all things not to be sniffed at. But I am not going

to do that. I draw the line somewhere.

Is Louise Mensch right? Does the public not care about indiscretions

and bad behaviour before we get into politics? I don't think they

care as much as they did and if they do, I don't think they should.

I thought this might come up, I did a bit of doodling. -- Google in.

Political Lord Roseberry used to take cocaine, when it was legal,

before speaking in the House of Commons. Kennedy, of course, was on

such a massive cocktail of drugs that during the Cuban missile

crisis, he rattled whenever he got up. What is a point of morality?

we rule people out of high office on the grounds of a slightly

chequered past, we would be restricting the pool of politicians

to a very narrow group, and some of the best people are people who have

dallied with trucks in the past. Not wanting to be a cynic, but --

drugs in the past. Going back to this idea of being tough on drug-

taking, youngsters who have committed crimes, it might strike

people as a bit strange, David Cameron, Louise Mensch, saying this

was my misspent youth, you can't chastise me now. When we are

resting people for doing that same thing -- arresting people. It is

hypocritical and that is why I'm in favour of decriminalising or less

all drugs. You don't think it ruins the political message in that

sense? I don't think so. I don't think George Osborne is identified

with a particularly draconian, say no to drugs policy. I don't think

it is particularly relevant. Once in politics? Then I think you are

under obligation to give it up and leave it behind you. I hope they

are listening. And live a chaste and perfect life,

like us. Tomorrow, the High Court will

decide whether or not to allow the bailiffs back into Dale Farm in

Basildon. The site is owned and occupied by a community of

travellers. They bought it from a car scrapyard dealer in 1996. But

the local council says that part of the site, which is in the green

belt, has been developed without the necessary planning permissions.

This has all been going on for more than a decade. On Monday, the court,

at the last minute, granted the residence and order which prevented

their lives from beginning to clear the site. A whole load of other

protesters who joined in, they claim to be there in solidarity.

There is always the danger it could turn nasty. With me, the leader of

Basildon Council, Tony Ball, and Yvonne MacNamara, who speaks for

the Irish Travellers Movement in Britain. Welcome. If you look at

this from the outside, part of the site got planning permission, has

been developed, and isn't going to be touched. The other part didn't,

and you have to get out. What is wrong with that? There is a lot

wrong with it. Firstly, morally, it legally, it economically, this is

very wrong. Two weeks ago, I sat in a caravan, trying to explain to an

11-year-old, Eileen O'Brien, who has written the letter to David

Cameron, why she can no longer live in Dale Farm in a caravan... Isn't

that the fault of her parents for being in an area which doesn't have

planning permission? No. I delete what is happening here, is there is

a national shortage of travellers' Every local authority in this

country has a statutory requirement to identify need. When they

identified the needs of the local Gypsy Traveller community, which

Basildon have done, they tend to leave that report sitting on the

shelf gathering dust, they don't implement it. Basildon Council

themselves have identified there is a need for 62, that is minimum...

There is a need for a lot of things, it doesn't justify breaking the law.

A lot of people don't have homes in this country and meet them, but

they don't break the law. Nobody is advocating that people should break

the law. But when people are absolutely desperate, local

authorities are not providing the homes. Let me... Let me bring in a

local authority here. This has been going on for 10 years. You are now

going to have to move families who have been there for a long while.

Given the length of it, and given that part of the site is legal and

has planning permission, why don't you draw a line under it and say,

the whole side will now be covered. -- the whole site. We have learned

lessons, it won't happen again, but the whole site will be subject to

planning, they will be allowed to stay there and we will enforce

rigorously, every other part of the law. To a certain extent you have

answered your own question, where do you draw the line? I am saying

you do it here. Why? The site was developed illegally in 2001. We all

know we need to get planning permission before we develop. That

cannot be seen to be rewarded, and it is a question of equality for

everybody. What will stop someone making a similar case, if they

wanted their grandmother to move in with them, and building a home in

their garden? There has to be consistency. I agree there is a

national shortage, but that can't be a reason for them taking the law

into your own hands. Why don't you provide the sites for the people?

Basildon is the largest provider in his Essex. I want to ask you this.

What I think a lot of people don't understand. If this is a travelling

community, why are they fighting so hard to stay put? This shows a huge

gap in information. The ethnic identity is the tablet community,

yes. Under the -- traveller community. Under the race Relations

Act they are protected. I am committed to your question. Why do

they want accommodation? I am coming to it. Allow me to answer

the question. They have a right to allow for self-determination but we

have conflicting pieces of legislation, that if the travellers

travel the highways and byways of this country, there are no longer a

transient sites provided. Local authorities are not providing the

transient sites for them. Are they no longer travellers? Are they

going to become permanent They are travellers. They are

continuously being harassed and moved on. There is no place else

for them to go. I am missing something, if they want a permanent

place to go, it would seem they are no longer travellers question of

you are a Scottish man? OK. Because you have come to live here in

London, it doesn't automatically mean you are now an Englishman. You

are still a Scottish month. Traveller is the ethnic identity of

Are you still determined, despite the dangers of violence and the

fact that families and old people will be moved, to get them out. I

come back to my original point. Would it not be better to say, we

have all learnt lessons from this prolonged case, we're not going to

have a fight over it, we are going to draw the line here and move on?

Many things that are forgotten are the actual reasons. Is this an

appropriate place to have 52 pots, plus over 30... You gave them half

of it, and it was a car dealership. -- 52 plots. A scrapyard. A very

small part of it had a licence to be a scrap dealership.

significant part. That was illegally and large and we enforced

against that. I understand that the travellers might have bought... But

with rights becomes as -- come responsibilities. A brief talk from

youth, Toby Young. Presumably you would like to have lots of

transient sides that you can travel to and from two, rather than one

permanent site, and your argument is we need this, because we're not

allowed to go anywhere else. Absolutely not allowed. If there is

If there is a national shortage, people need somewhere to live

during the winter as well. The children need to go to school.

afraid we have run out of time but I thank you both for being with us.

Just time to give you the answer to yesterday's guess the year

competition. It was 1982. You recognised the Falklands War, Tony

Blair fighting and losing the Beckinsale by-election. You get to

pick the winner. Just read out the name. Bill Horrocks from Aberdeen.

Well done. We will send the mug to you. That is it for today. That's

all for today. Thanks to all our guests, especially to the Toad-

meister - as he's called on Twitter - Toby Young. I am back tonight for

the first This Week in ages, where I will be joined by Michael

Portillo, Jacqui Smith and Charles Kennedy. Leading fiddle-meister

Nigel Kennedy will speaking up for travellers and American comedian

Reginald D Hunter will be casting an eye over national stereotypes.