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Good afternoon. We are live from the this ball, where that sky is

:00:26.:00:36.

blue. -- live from Liverpool. That's the view from the Liverpool

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Wheel. It is another busy day here at conference. Ed Miliband has been

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doing his round of morning interviews, which always follows

:00:47.:00:51.

the leader's speech these days. He has a message for you youngsters

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out there - do not pin your hopes on being the next star of a reality

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TV show. You know you want to, but the Labour leader says no. His

:01:00.:01:04.

party tonight is hosting its own talent contest. Inside the

:01:04.:01:13.

conference, delegates are still digesting the Miliband speech. The

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journalists -- he had a good reception here, even though they

:01:16.:01:20.

are not working in the aisles. We will be speaking to the Shadow

:01:20.:01:23.

business secretary. And Giles has been finding out if there is any

:01:23.:01:28.

appetite for a future deal with the Lib Dems. Is there still hope for

:01:28.:01:34.

the Progressive Alliance? Or has Nick Clegg put an end to that? And

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that's not all. Jo has done a runner, left us. She's back in

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London. I have hot-footed it back to the capital, where the weather

:01:45.:01:50.

is just as nice. The big story today - Labour accusing the

:01:50.:01:54.

coalition of confusion over police reform. So the party has set up its

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own review. We will be speaking to the former Crimewatch presenter

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Nick Ross, and to the Shadow Home Secretary, Yvette Cooper.

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Yes, all that and a lot more coming up in the next hour. To discuss

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that, I am joined by Anushka Asthana from the Times, and

:02:15.:02:19.

Benedict Brogan from the Telegraph. So, it is the morning after the

:02:19.:02:24.

night before - what do we think? think the speech has not had a

:02:24.:02:28.

great reception in terms of the newspapers today. I saw that Ed

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Miliband was asked about Tony Blair this morning, whom of course he

:02:36.:02:40.

mentioned that he was not in the speech, and got cheers. He did not

:02:40.:02:47.

defend Tony Blair that heavily. Should not a leader have said, when

:02:47.:02:51.

he heard the Boeing, have immediately ad-libbed, how dare

:02:51.:02:56.

anybody do that for the most successful Labour leader we ever

:02:56.:03:00.

had, who introduced the minimum wage, built more schools and

:03:00.:03:05.

hospitals than any leader ever? Why did he not do that? There are still

:03:05.:03:09.

plenty of fans of Tony Blair, and this morning they are out raged

:03:09.:03:14.

that he did not say anything. He appears to have associated himself

:03:14.:03:18.

with the jeering of Labour's most successful leader since the war, if

:03:18.:03:25.

not in its entire history. There is some good news for him. He came to

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Liverpool and advanced an argument. That is refreshing. But it is an

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argument that everybody is arguing with this morning. The difficulty

:03:34.:03:37.

for him is that in his round of interviews, he spent all of his

:03:37.:03:41.

time explaining what he was trying to say, defending himself about

:03:41.:03:45.

Tony Blair, and even having to answer questions about whether or

:03:45.:03:49.

not he is weird. There is a difficult disconnect for the Labour

:03:49.:03:54.

leader, I would suggest. He says it is the end of the political and

:03:54.:03:58.

economic consensus of the past 30 years. He may be right on that.

:03:58.:04:02.

These things come in cycles. The post-war consensus ended with Mrs

:04:02.:04:07.

Thatcher. It is probably time for a new one to emerge. But if you say

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something that big is happening, you have to have something quite

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big to respond to it. I agree. He has got this idea of goodies and

:04:15.:04:25.
:04:25.:04:27.

baddies, producers and predators, I think it was. The the problem is

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that it is too much like black-and- white. Everybody has a bit of both.

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You have these pantomime villains, like Fred Goodwin. He's talking to

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you, as in, are we the goodies? I'm not sure, maybe I'm a baddie, I'm a

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journalist. A definitely a baddie, you're a predator. But you at the

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Telegraph, we do not know. definitely on the good side of the

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argument. But he has got this big argument and he has not got

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convincing answers to it. Everybody is puzzled as to what he means.

:04:59.:05:04.

Does it mean that as Mr Hi! -- bad businesses will be taxed more than

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others? We remember Gordon Brown going around like a bear with a

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sore head after the Sun dumped him. Ed Miliband was not quite like that

:05:18.:05:23.

this morning. This is what he had to say. Are you saying you want to

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fight the gas and electricity companies? Just remind me, who was

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the Secretary of State for energy quite recently? Me, and that's why

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I took action. Did you take them on? You guessed, I did. Talk to

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them about it. I took action on prices, on pre-payment meters. But

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there's more that we can do. People are saying, hold on, he wrote the

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rules - on Energy, on debt finance, which led to Southern Cross, you

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were there. A was there, and I do not say we did everything right.

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I'm proud of what we did. On the crucial issue of pre-payment meters,

:06:02.:06:07.

for example, we took action. Ask the companies themselves whether

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Ray gave them an easy ride, and they will say I did not. I'm

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determined that we complete that work, which we would have done if

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we had been re-elected. mentioned good business and bad

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business - British Airways, is that a good business? The most important

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distinction I make is between good business practices and bad business

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practices. I'm not going to typecast one industry. So, let's

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talk about British Aerospace... It is the subject of a fraud inquiry.

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I know what good business is about. It is about training your workforce,

:06:47.:06:55.

it is about sustainable wealth, not wealth which is built on sand. Of

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course you need defence manufacturers in your economy.

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about private-equity companies? So, provided you train people and spend

:07:04.:07:10.

money on research...? Sustainable wealth, that is what is about. It

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is more complicated than just to say it is about a few evil people.

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The rules were not right, they encouraged the wrong things, not

:07:19.:07:23.

the right things. You could say, let's just carry on as we are.

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Let's say the banking crisis was simply a local difficulty. Icesave

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this is a moment when we have got to change. This is not anti-

:07:33.:07:43.
:07:43.:07:45.

business. It is anti-business as usual. Let me comeback to a matter

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mention by Ben, the question on the Today Programme, people think you

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are weird... Before coming here, partly because the new channels are

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full of the Michael Jackson trial, I tried to watch some other things.

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I came across Channel Five, the show with a live audience in the

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mornings, not with people like this, just ordinary daytime viewers. They

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ran a clip of Ed Miliband, and the whole audience started to snigger

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and burst into laughter. The presenter, quite pro-Labour, put

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his head in his hands, like that. That's a real problem. I think it

:08:22.:08:27.

can be a problem. It is a real shame that that was the reaction.

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It takes time to put that right. With Mr Hague and Iain Duncan Smith,

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for the Tories, it never happened.. But it can happen for some people.

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David Cameron was not as impressive in the early days as he later

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became. I'm not sure it can, in this case. First impressions are

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terribly important. The danger is that Ed Miliband is crystallising

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the minds of the public as somebody who is slightly so regal, slightly

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goofy looking. Somebody who is not quite in tune with them. --

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cerebral. We have not got that much time left. The William Hague of

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this conference, Rory Weal, it turns out, according to some of the

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papers, he was not born in a shoe and brought up in the middle of a

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roundabout, after all. But you have interviewed him. You can have a

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minute to defend him, and you have a minute to say whatever you want.

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He probably should have mentioned that she had gone to private school.

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But he never claimed that he lived a life of poverty. One point he

:09:33.:09:37.

made to me was that actually, people who sometimes need the

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benefits system are not the stereotypes that you talk about. He

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never lied, his house was repossessed. He was remiss in what

:09:45.:09:50.

he should have told us. Perhaps it was a sin of omission. But he is a

:09:50.:09:54.

16-year-old. How many 16-year-olds can do what he did yesterday. Very

:09:54.:10:02.

few, but then he does go to a grammar school. I found him great,

:10:02.:10:07.

he was a normal kid. He loved football, Charlton Athletic. I

:10:07.:10:10.

should have noticed that she had a season ticket for Charlton Athletic,

:10:10.:10:17.

which obviously wasn't that cheap. You warmed to him? Yes, he's just a

:10:17.:10:21.

very nice, personable 16-year-old. I was impressed with what he did.

:10:21.:10:25.

He should have mentioned his dad and the money. But the reality is

:10:25.:10:30.

that his house did get repossessed. The you will probably turn out to

:10:30.:10:37.

be a brilliant politician because he has mastered the art of being

:10:37.:10:41.

economical with the truth. And he is a walking, talking advertisement

:10:41.:10:47.

for private education as well. Would you like a badge? I love

:10:47.:10:50.

Rupert Murdoch? He is your proprietor, I would like to remind

:10:50.:11:00.
:11:00.:11:01.

you. This one, I love Ed. I will take, I love deficit reduction. The

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thank you very much to both of you. Let's go back to London. Open the

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papers, turn on the television, and the parts of Ed Miliband's speech

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which are being picked over are the bits about business. Labour's big

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game hunters stepped into the conference jungle yesterday, and he

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had some big targets in his sights. He took aim at predatory private-

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equity firms, like the one which bought and eventually closed

:11:29.:11:34.

Southern Cross care homes, Blackstone. He could not resist

:11:34.:11:41.

firing off a few rounds at ex-RBS chief Fred Goodwin. But he was keen

:11:41.:11:45.

to recognise good firms, what he termed producers, like Rolls-Royce,

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who are creating wealth and keeping jobs in this country. He made it

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clear he would favour these firms and government.

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We must learn the lesson that growth is built on sand if it comes

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from our predators and not our producers. For years, as a country,

:12:00.:12:05.

we have been neutral in that battle. They have been taxed, regulated,

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celebrated the same - they will not be by me. We need the most

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competitive tax and regulatory environment for business that we

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can have. When I am Prime Minister, how we tax, how we relegate, what

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government buys, will be in the service of Britain's producers.

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That did not go down well with big business beasts. Former trade

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minister Lord Digby Jones called minister Lord Digby Jones called

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the remarks divisive and a kick in the teeth for business. In contrast,

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the speech was it would meet for those on the left. Len McCluskey

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eulogised that there was a phoenix rising from the ashes, with Labour

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becoming a peoples Party. Joining me now, from the Conservative Party,

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me now, from the Conservative Party, Michael Fallon. Do you agree that

:12:53.:12:55.

the something for something mantra that he used will resonate well

:12:55.:13:01.

people? But what did they do about it over 13 years? They did not do

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it over 13 years? They did not do anything about welfare reform.

:13:02.:13:06.

They're not backing our changes on welfare reform to make sure that

:13:06.:13:15.

you have to work to claim benefit. Just not backing the changes. They

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are talking about this. They did not do it when they were in office.

:13:19.:13:22.

You could argue that they did actually have a welfare programme

:13:22.:13:25.

in place, and they have said that they would use more stick and

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carrot. But you couldn't disagree with the idea of something for

:13:34.:13:39.

something? No, but you have to ask why they did not do it successfully

:13:39.:13:43.

in government, why they had so many people claiming benefit, and why it

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is still more worthwhile to claim benefit and to work. We're changing

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that. We have got a bill changing that at the moment. The locals are

:13:51.:13:55.

in a sense, you agree on that level, even if you are doing different

:13:55.:13:59.

things about it. He also agree with the idea of ending the era of the

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:14:09.:14:17.

fast buck? You agree with him on that as well? We are regulating the

:14:17.:14:27.
:14:27.:14:47.

banks properly and putting the Bank We were warning about it. Lots of

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people were warning about it. Lots of people were saying, this thing

:14:51.:14:55.

is getting out of control, and when it ended up with the banks going

:14:55.:15:00.

bust. We are now having to clear up that mess. That's why we are

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reforming banking regulation and making sure it does not happen

:15:03.:15:08.

again. So, in a sense, you are at one with what Ed Miliband is saying.

:15:08.:15:12.

You are saying they should be regulation, they should be some

:15:12.:15:16.

controls on what banks and may be big in the business does. In a way,

:15:16.:15:20.

you are agree with that line, that it is the end of that era, it is

:15:20.:15:30.
:15:30.:15:35.

the end of the fast buck, the end He say you need to divide companies

:15:35.:15:39.

into good cafes and bad companies, some are producers, and nobody

:15:39.:15:49.
:15:49.:15:50.

knows how you define them. It takes you back to the kind of picking

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winners and so one of the 1970s if you say that they are different.

:15:53.:16:01.

Are you saying there is not to case about having an argument where,

:16:01.:16:06.

cannot he be the middle guide between people who exploit the

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welfare state and businesses that made money on the back of

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speculation. You are always having to improve regulation because they

:16:13.:16:18.

fail to regulate the banks properly. The Conservatives didn't come in at

:16:18.:16:21.

the time and say. He is going further and say in government

:16:21.:16:25.

ministers should make moral decisions about which companies are

:16:25.:16:30.

better. Wise's boots a predator? Are you saying it is not possible

:16:30.:16:33.

or desirable to reward good businesses with tax breaks and

:16:33.:16:39.

investments? Good businesses are rewarding themselves by attracting

:16:39.:16:42.

more shareholding, making profits for the shareholders. There is

:16:42.:16:48.

already plenty of corporate guidance and so on. But what

:16:48.:16:55.

ministers cannot do is say, you are a good business and you are a bad

:16:55.:17:00.

one. The Federation of Schmoll businesses had criticism along

:17:00.:17:06.

those lines but said Ed Miliband had a good idea -- Federation of

:17:06.:17:12.

school businesses. Do you not agree? We can always improve

:17:13.:17:17.

regulation. We are doing that. is more than that. He is saying

:17:18.:17:22.

something different. He is trying to say that ministers should make

:17:22.:17:28.

moral judgments. I don't think they should go so far as deciding what a

:17:28.:17:33.

good and bad company is. Were you celebrating in Conservative Central

:17:34.:17:41.

Office is as has been reported? I have not heard that. It has not

:17:41.:17:44.

been a good walk. On Monday we didn't have a credible economic

:17:45.:17:48.

plan from Ed Balls and yesterday we have a speech from Miliband which

:17:48.:17:55.

is already falling apart. It hasn't been a good week. It has been

:17:55.:18:01.

confused and rather weak. Back to Andrew in the Conference Centre.

:18:01.:18:07.

We are joined by the Shadow Business Secretary, John Denham.

:18:07.:18:15.

The leader of the opposition told Nick Robinson that he didn't want

:18:15.:18:23.

wealth built on sand. But when your government was taking billions and

:18:23.:18:26.

billions of pounds in revenues from banks like the Royal Bank of

:18:26.:18:31.

Scotland and others in the mid- part of the decade to, using it to

:18:31.:18:36.

build schools and hospitals, was that wealth built on sand?

:18:36.:18:40.

reality was that that approach to the economy wasn't one that is

:18:40.:18:43.

sustainable in the long term. That is why Ed Miliband was talking

:18:43.:18:47.

about the rules. You didn't know at the time. When you were taking all

:18:47.:18:51.

that money, billions of pounds from financial-services, you didn't know.

:18:51.:18:55.

You certainly didn't say it was wealth built on sand. The point

:18:55.:19:00.

about where we are now after losing an election and after the banking

:19:00.:19:04.

crisis is to say, do we understand what needs to be done in the

:19:04.:19:08.

future? We have a record that I am proud. But there were things that

:19:08.:19:11.

happened and things we didn't get right that we need to change in the

:19:11.:19:21.

future. My point is, you do not know, we do not know when wealth is

:19:21.:19:25.

built on sand and when it isn't. Who would have thought that the

:19:25.:19:30.

Royal Bank of Scotland turned out to be well built on sand? I think

:19:30.:19:35.

we can say that if we have as many companies a possible who invest

:19:35.:19:39.

long term, who trained staff, who take the environment seriously,

:19:39.:19:42.

which want their customers to be with them in 15 years' time and not

:19:43.:19:47.

just in 15 minutes, those countries are the ones that are most likely

:19:47.:19:53.

to bring success to this country. We don't have an environment that

:19:53.:19:57.

fosters that. It is often been possible to make more money by

:19:57.:20:01.

doing more short-term things than by building a long-term business.

:20:01.:20:05.

What government has to do more seriously than we have done before

:20:05.:20:08.

is create the environment for those good companies to grow. Firstly,

:20:08.:20:11.

you will not get good companies without good government. If

:20:11.:20:16.

government jobs and changes its policy... Willie penalise countries

:20:16.:20:22.

that do not follow the Government's rules? You have to get incentives

:20:22.:20:26.

right in the first place. It is recognising that if the rules of

:20:26.:20:31.

the game are that you can make more money than speculation than

:20:31.:20:36.

investing long-term, people will. Let us get the rules right. This

:20:36.:20:40.

company is full of companies -- this country is full of companies

:20:40.:20:45.

that invest for the long term. you look at the economy, there are

:20:45.:20:49.

not enough of them for the size of a country to pay away in the world.

:20:49.:20:52.

We have brilliant companies but we also have companies with business

:20:53.:21:01.

models that a more short-term. example. I will not name any.

:21:01.:21:07.

you can't name companies, it is impossible to have a proper debate.

:21:07.:21:10.

It is a theoretical debate for an Oxbridge Common Room. It is talking

:21:10.:21:17.

about features in companies, training, Ferrar conditions. We

:21:17.:21:22.

need more of those conditions and more sectors of the economy.

:21:22.:21:25.

Everything we cut of about doing is changing the rules of the economy.

:21:25.:21:29.

Which falls? Rules on investment return for example, which means

:21:29.:21:33.

they can be incentives to buy into a young company and then sell it on

:21:33.:21:37.

within five years, instead of keeping your cup listen to enable

:21:37.:21:44.

it to grow. We need to make more small companies become bigger

:21:44.:21:48.

companies. How do you know it might not be a good thing to sell the

:21:49.:21:54.

company on in five years to another company? A trade sale that wants to

:21:54.:21:58.

acquire it and grow it? How can you stop it on know whether it is good?

:21:58.:22:03.

You have to make judgments on what deals you is a device. I wouldn't

:22:03.:22:07.

want to stand in the way of somebody who got Investment and

:22:07.:22:11.

chose to sell on after five years. Too many small businesses say they

:22:11.:22:16.

have no option. That when you get venture capital in after five years

:22:16.:22:21.

the capital has to be released. We can look at how you change the

:22:21.:22:25.

rules to foster different behaviour. It means making judgements about

:22:25.:22:29.

the business models you want to reward. How many ministers in the

:22:29.:22:33.

shadow cabinet have first-hand business experience? I don't know

:22:33.:22:39.

how many do. I haven't done a head count. Who has? I set up the social

:22:39.:22:44.

enterprise myself very successfully 30 years ago. Did you have any

:22:44.:22:48.

business folk in the cabinet? have business people around the

:22:48.:22:54.

party. In the cabinet? I don't think there are any that come to

:22:54.:22:58.

mind that have made their main careers in business. And yet you

:22:58.:23:03.

think you can judge? Your shadow cabinet has no business experience

:23:03.:23:07.

yet you think you can judge when wealth is not based on sand, when

:23:07.:23:10.

it would be good or bad to sell a company on in five years' time,

:23:10.:23:15.

whether venture-capital lays down the right decisions? You have no

:23:15.:23:19.

qualifications for any of that. What was said yesterday and what I

:23:19.:23:25.

was saying, has not come out of thin air. If you talk about

:23:25.:23:29.

business, this is a discussion they are they having. It is the conflict

:23:29.:23:32.

between long-term wealth creation and short-term decisions. The

:23:32.:23:38.

dilemmas faced by small companies that want to grow. This is not a

:23:38.:23:41.

Labour party invented debate. It is what British business is talk about

:23:41.:23:45.

today. The reason we are talking about it is because we have been

:23:45.:23:47.

listening to businesses says the last election and that is what they

:23:47.:23:51.

are asking us to raise and to talk about. That has not been the

:23:51.:23:54.

reaction of business. Every spokesman we have heard from his

:23:54.:23:58.

very sniffy about what you are proposing. Tell me one major

:23:58.:24:03.

business figure that has supported the line Mr Miliband took yesterday.

:24:03.:24:09.

John Cridland from the CBI. Not to tour. He bangs the idea of

:24:09.:24:19.
:24:19.:24:22.

customers investing in the long term. -- he backs the idea. That is

:24:22.:24:28.

not controversial. At the moment we do not have a system of incentives,

:24:28.:24:30.

government policy-making, rewards, which fosters those types of

:24:30.:24:37.

business. He didn't do that for 14 years in power? -- you didn't.

:24:37.:24:41.

invest in training. We had crucial decisions that Ed was talking about

:24:41.:24:47.

earlier. Energy policy that laid down a long time frame mark. You're

:24:47.:24:52.

telling us now you have to take the six major energy companies over

:24:52.:24:59.

predatory pricing. We did some of the things but not all of them. If

:24:59.:25:02.

you are saying we shouldn't try to make this choice, try to foster

:25:02.:25:12.
:25:12.:25:21.

that environment, I did believe There is nothing wrong about the

:25:21.:25:25.

investment bank. But if you buy into a company, loaded with Betts,

:25:25.:25:28.

strip its assets and leave it as a husk, that is not a helpful

:25:28.:25:38.

business model. Tuna was investment banks do? They offer a range of

:25:38.:25:47.

mergers and acquisitions and a You are saying, if you are going to

:25:47.:25:56.

be in that activity, do tax was -- awards reward the merges? If they

:25:56.:26:00.

do, that is good. If government gets the rules wrong and they can

:26:00.:26:04.

make more money by taking assets out, you don't own the company for

:26:04.:26:08.

that. The individuals involved. You say government has to get the rules

:26:08.:26:15.

right. Were you proud of your party when Tony Blair was booed

:26:15.:26:24.

yesterday? Ed Miliband was clear. He said he was his own man. He said

:26:24.:26:29.

this morning that this was the end of the Thatcher-Blair era. To the

:26:29.:26:32.

extent that the idea was that we should be completely neutral about

:26:32.:26:36.

which types of business models that took place as long as they were

:26:36.:26:40.

business. We have to go beyond that. If we pay our way in a world that

:26:40.:26:44.

has a rising China, a rise in India, we need more of those companies

:26:44.:26:47.

that will invest in the long term. Can you understand why people are

:26:47.:26:54.

puzzled that your own party should do what was regarded as the most

:26:54.:26:57.

successful leader -- should be doing what was regarded as the most

:26:58.:27:06.

successful leader. I was in the hall. With a Tory conference ever

:27:06.:27:13.

do that to Margaret Thatcher? don't think so. What did you say

:27:13.:27:17.

about Gordon and Tony? Two of the greatest leader the party has ever

:27:17.:27:26.

had. Did they applaud that? they did. Are you sure? We will

:27:26.:27:29.

have to look at the Tate. Thank you for being a with us.

:27:29.:27:37.

Last week at the Liberal Democrat conference we sent the mood box out

:27:37.:27:40.

to see who delegates would prefer to go into coalition with should

:27:40.:27:46.

there be a hung parliament in 2015. Tory or Labour? Delegates said they

:27:46.:27:51.

fancied Labour over the Tories. We went out this week to see if the

:27:51.:27:55.

feelings were reciprocated. Someone has tried to walk off with

:27:55.:28:00.

some of the mood box balls. We have lost them. But the question is

:28:00.:28:06.

today, should Ed Miliband rule out a coalition with the Lib Dems? It

:28:06.:28:15.

takes two seconds. Whichever one you think. You are really need out.

:28:15.:28:24.

Excellent. I expected there to be a coalition so he knows what would

:28:24.:28:30.

happen. Should he rule out a coalition with the Lib Dems? We

:28:30.:28:36.

don't ask easy questions. They are angry about what Nick Clegg has

:28:36.:28:43.

is progressive and that will do the right thing to Britain that is not

:28:43.:28:48.

led by the Tories. It is the right thing to leave the options open for

:28:48.:28:52.

a start you are catching us on the end of Ed Miliband's speech so we

:28:52.:29:01.

are feeling positive. It is a good thing to feel positive. You think

:29:01.:29:06.

it is sensible. Is that heart ruling head? I think so. If you

:29:06.:29:13.

have the chance to go to government you should take it. It is just

:29:13.:29:17.

sensible politics? There would have to be a new leader. Obviously not

:29:17.:29:24.

Vince Cable or Nick Clegg. Maybe Charles Kennedy again. Should Ed

:29:24.:29:31.

without a coalition with the Lib Dems? That would be like having a

:29:31.:29:35.

coalition with the Conservatives, so very much he should rule it out.

:29:35.:29:42.

We may not need them but you have to keep it open. Should he rule out

:29:42.:29:48.

a coalition with the Lib Dems? heart says rule it out. My head

:29:48.:29:51.

says, if his -- if it was a few of them and a lot of us, and the

:29:51.:29:54.

difference between us and them and the tourists and them, we would

:29:54.:30:02.

have to consider it. But it would go against the grey mack -- go

:30:02.:30:12.
:30:12.:30:22.

It is the trade unionists and the MPs that do this. Howard Wilson

:30:22.:30:27.

said, a day in politics is a long time, and that's why I'm leaving my

:30:27.:30:31.

options open. It is closer than most have been this week, but it is

:30:31.:30:41.

still definitely rule it out which is winning at the halfway stage.

:30:41.:30:45.

think we ought to go it alone. If we are a minority government, so be

:30:45.:30:52.

it. Tell me, is there a reason why it. Tell me, is there a reason why

:30:52.:30:55.

all the MPs are options open, and the delegates are, well in it out?

:30:55.:31:01.

We are sensible realists. I think the Lib Dems will be very good,

:31:01.:31:11.

particularly those who have got more in common with Labour. More

:31:11.:31:16.

people would like Ed to read aloud a coalition with the Lib Dems, but

:31:16.:31:26.
:31:26.:31:27.

there are the pragmatists, who want options to be left open. Am joined

:31:27.:31:31.

now by the MP for Ian Murray, and by the self-styled sensible realist,

:31:31.:31:41.
:31:41.:31:46.

Tessa Jowell. Let me ask you this - given that we may be in an era of

:31:46.:31:53.

hung parliaments, we do not know, but we might be, surely, any party

:31:53.:31:57.

would be sensible not to read aloud any option. I think that's right.

:31:57.:32:02.

Other than the national Front, or whatever. That's right. And that is

:32:02.:32:08.

what being a sensible realist means. But also, nobody won the last

:32:08.:32:11.

election, and we do not know what the public mood will be that the

:32:11.:32:19.

time we get to the next election. So, I think the right thing is to

:32:19.:32:24.

campaign for an outright majority... Of course. And then, if there is

:32:24.:32:27.

not an outright majority, but in the event that Labour was the

:32:27.:32:32.

largest party, to look at the feasibility and desirability of

:32:32.:32:35.

coalition, consistent with the policies that you have campaigned

:32:35.:32:42.

on. What would your view be? It is up to the voters to decide. If they

:32:42.:32:45.

decide they do not want the Liberal Democrats forming any part of any

:32:45.:32:49.

government, then they will say so at the ballot box. But you could

:32:49.:32:53.

only do that if you wiped out the Liberal Democrats altogether. When

:32:53.:32:56.

voters vote for individual parties, we do not know if they are also

:32:56.:32:59.

voting for the Lib Dems to be holding the balance of power.

:32:59.:33:03.

would not rule it out in terms of doing any deal with the Liberal

:33:03.:33:07.

Democrats, in the sense that we want rid of this rotten

:33:07.:33:10.

Conservative government. But the bottom line is the trust issue, for

:33:10.:33:14.

me. The pledges that have been broken by Nick Clegg. There is no

:33:14.:33:17.

doubt that the Labour Party is the only progressive party left in the

:33:17.:33:23.

country. The voters will decide. the voters decide to make you the

:33:23.:33:28.

largest party, but without an overall majority, but the Lib Dems

:33:28.:33:31.

still have enough seats, that with them, you could form an overall

:33:31.:33:37.

majority, what would your advice be? It would be a very, very bitter

:33:37.:33:41.

pill to swallow, but if it meant that the Conservatives were removed

:33:41.:33:44.

from power, and Labour could take progressive policies to the country,

:33:44.:33:48.

then we would have to think about doing a deal. But Nick Clegg would

:33:48.:33:54.

be very much a barrier to that. Miliband has said that we could not

:33:54.:33:59.

do a deal with Nick Clegg as leader - is that still the situation, is

:33:59.:34:05.

it a sensible position to be in?. think that at this stage, 3.5 years

:34:05.:34:13.

from an election, it is very hard to lay down firm conditions, other

:34:13.:34:19.

than that we're going to campaign for a majority government. In the

:34:19.:34:23.

circumstances of the time, unionist has yet, and you decide whether

:34:23.:34:27.

you're going to be a minority government on what is called

:34:27.:34:31.

confidence and supply, where you have agreement issue by issue, or

:34:31.:34:36.

whether you can actually become a full coalition. Ian is right, full

:34:36.:34:39.

coalition has to be consistent with progressive values, and it also has

:34:39.:34:44.

to be consistent with what people have voted for Labour to achieve in

:34:44.:34:50.

government. You sound, if I may say so, a bit like a number of Tory MPs

:34:50.:34:54.

at the moment, who wish that they had not gone into coalition with

:34:54.:34:59.

the Lib Dems, and had formed a minority government on this supply

:34:59.:35:03.

and confident basis which Tessa Jowell is talking about. In the

:35:03.:35:11.

circumstances, is that not what you would really prefer? I have been

:35:11.:35:15.

called a lot of things, but never a Tory. We are stuck in a very

:35:15.:35:24.

dangerous austerity package. But I am talking about 2015. The Liberal

:35:24.:35:27.

Democrats have endorsed an austerity package which they do not

:35:27.:35:31.

believe in. We have to put a strong message to the British people,

:35:31.:35:36.

which says that if you want a progressive party in charge...

:35:36.:35:40.

getting enough stuff like that from the conference, I'm asking you a

:35:40.:35:44.

specific question, that in the circumstances of you being the

:35:44.:35:48.

largest party, and without an overall majority, would you not

:35:48.:35:52.

prefer, as many Tory MPs would have done in the same circumstance, to

:35:52.:35:59.

remain a minority government, with a supply and confident steal?

:35:59.:36:05.

believe in leaving those options open. You do not sound enthusiastic

:36:05.:36:10.

about a coalition. It depends on the numbers. If you fall so far

:36:10.:36:13.

away from having an absolute majority, then you might have to

:36:13.:36:17.

form a coalition. But otherwise, supply and demand should not be

:36:17.:36:22.

rule out. There is also a difference, if I can say, between

:36:22.:36:28.

the prospect of being a minority government, but with a sufficient

:36:28.:36:32.

number of seats to form a majority coalition with the Liberal

:36:32.:36:39.

Democrats, and being the largest party but a minority government,

:36:39.:36:43.

and having to cobbled-together enough seats with a whole lot of

:36:44.:36:50.

other minority parties. I think then, quite honestly, the price of

:36:50.:36:53.

being in government is just too high, financially, because of what

:36:53.:37:00.

they demand, and also, it stretches credibility. And understand that,

:37:00.:37:05.

but will this not change our politics? The possibility of a hung

:37:05.:37:07.

parliament in the run-up to the last election was the kind of

:37:08.:37:11.

elephant in the room, nobody talked about it, but it was there. Now

:37:11.:37:16.

that we have got a coalition, if, in the next campaign, the polls

:37:16.:37:19.

show there is likely to be no clear-cut winner, this will affect

:37:19.:37:23.

the campaign, and people like me will ask people like you what

:37:23.:37:29.

positions you're taking in the event of a coalition. It will be a

:37:29.:37:33.

different kind of election... would give you the same answer,

:37:33.:37:37.

that we are campaigning for an outright majority. But I will say,

:37:38.:37:42.

we know that, but are you prepared if we do not get it to do a deal

:37:42.:37:46.

with the Liberals? And the answer would be, of course, if we are the

:37:46.:37:50.

largest party, we would look at the possibility of coalition in order

:37:50.:37:54.

to form a majority government, consistent with the policies in our

:37:54.:38:04.

manifesto. It will affect the election campaign,, won't you?

:38:04.:38:07.

There is no doubt that it will change the way you campaign. We

:38:07.:38:17.
:38:17.:38:27.

will all be campaigning to be the On that shock revelation from Tessa

:38:27.:38:36.

Jowell, campaign to win, it's back to Jo in London. Now to the

:38:36.:38:39.

conference floor. Ed Miliband got cheers yesterday when he said he

:38:39.:38:42.

wasn't Tony Blair. But today, the Shadow Home Secretary, Yvette

:38:42.:38:46.

Cooper, has told them that Tony Blair was right, at least on the

:38:46.:38:50.

subject of law and order, with his famous mantra, tough on crime,

:38:50.:38:53.

tough on the causes of crime. Remember that? We will hear what

:38:53.:38:57.

she had to stay in a moment. But first, this is what Sidique Khan

:38:57.:39:01.

had to say to conference. In the past 12 months, the challenges for

:39:01.:39:06.

the justice system have become all too apparent. The groups and

:39:06.:39:11.

campaign organisations I have met, the prisons, young offenders'

:39:11.:39:16.

institutions and courts I have visited, the judiciary and legal

:39:16.:39:21.

professionals I have listened to, and the victims whose experiences I

:39:21.:39:30.

have heard. Take one couple who, following the tragic murder of

:39:30.:39:33.

their young son, have channelled all of their energy into working

:39:33.:39:38.

towards a safer community for young people across London through a

:39:38.:39:45.

Foundation. I'm honoured to have Barry advising my policy review. As

:39:45.:39:52.

you know, I shadow the Justice Secretary, Ken Clarke. Somebody

:39:52.:39:56.

once said to me that one downside of being in the shadow cabinet is

:39:56.:40:02.

that you begin to resemble the Cabinet Minister you shudder. Well,

:40:02.:40:11.

so far, I do not wear Hush puppies, don't smoke cigars, and manage to

:40:11.:40:16.

stay a week during my leader's speech. -- to stay awake. Because

:40:16.:40:21.

of Ken Clarke and his Government's policies, the ministry of justice

:40:21.:40:25.

faces a budget cut of a quarter, risking the effective functioning

:40:25.:40:31.

of our justice system. Dedicated, experienced professionals and the

:40:31.:40:34.

prison and probation service face uncertainty about the future of

:40:34.:40:40.

their crucial work. Even his own chief Inspector of Prisons, Nick

:40:40.:40:46.

Hardwick, said, this month, he has found no evidence at all of a

:40:46.:40:56.
:40:56.:41:10.

Bid will be enshrined in statute, so that the rights of bereaved

:41:10.:41:15.

families, of victims of homicide, are honoured. It will deliver

:41:15.:41:19.

effective justice and treat victims with respect and dignity.

:41:19.:41:22.

Supporting victims through all stages of the process, including

:41:22.:41:27.

the deeply traumatic experience of one a case reaches court. Under

:41:27.:41:31.

Labour, victims will be at the heart of the justice system. I will

:41:31.:41:35.

work with victims groups to make sure we get this right. Conference,

:41:35.:41:39.

the riots this summer show that we need a government which is not out

:41:39.:41:45.

of touch. Our country deserves better than what we have got. We

:41:45.:41:50.

need to make important decisions on crime and justice at the same time

:41:50.:41:55.

as making tough fiscal choices. At Ken Clarke and his government are

:41:55.:42:00.

getting these choices wrong. It will be down to us to put it right.

:42:00.:42:04.

There is only one party that can be trusted on law and order, and

:42:04.:42:12.

that's us, the Labour Party. Thank you very much. Tony Blair was right

:42:12.:42:15.

- tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime, because it worked.

:42:15.:42:20.

Crime fell by 40%, the first government since records began

:42:20.:42:25.

where crime went down, not up, 7 million fewer crimes a year. That

:42:25.:42:35.
:42:35.:42:37.

is Labour's record, and we should be proud of it. But we know that

:42:37.:42:44.

crime is still too high. We want crime to fall further. But the

:42:44.:42:52.

Tories don't get it. I don't think they ever did. In 1978, Jaxx Mark

:42:52.:42:56.

came to Labour Party conference from Castleford, in my constituency,

:42:56.:43:01.

and he said of the Tories then, they do not have to live in

:43:01.:43:04.

vandalised communities, they do not have to drive the trams which have

:43:04.:43:08.

missiles thrown into the camps, they do not have to take charge of

:43:08.:43:18.
:43:18.:43:20.

the buses and deal with the rowdies. My old friend Jack was right. Can

:43:20.:43:24.

you imagine David Cameron and George Osborne dealing with the

:43:24.:43:34.
:43:34.:43:35.

rowdy is? Rowdies Of their own, they can't even deal with Boris

:43:35.:43:40.

Johnson. And what is David Cameron's answer to crime? 20%

:43:40.:43:47.

front loaded cuts to the police. It is shocking. 650 police officers

:43:47.:43:53.

cut from Merseyside, 750 for Wales, 1,200 from the West Midlands,

:43:53.:43:58.

nearly 2000 officers from the Met. Right across the country, 16,000

:43:58.:44:02.

police officers lost. This is a reckless risk to take with the

:44:03.:44:11.

fight against crime. With me now, the former presenter of Crimewatch

:44:11.:44:15.

Nick Ross, also the chairman of the Jill Dando Institute of Security

:44:15.:44:19.

and Crime Science at University College London. Let's go back to

:44:19.:44:22.

the beginning, if you like, when it comes to Labour's record. That

:44:22.:44:26.

phrase, tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime - did they live

:44:27.:44:32.

up to it in 13 years? Well, it is a meaningless expression, isn't it?

:44:32.:44:34.

meaningless expression, isn't it? Memorable, but meaningless. Yvette

:44:34.:44:38.

Cooper's, and was also memorable but meaningless, about Labour's

:44:38.:44:44.

record of crime going down 40%. She's a good politician, but she

:44:44.:44:48.

betrays why we cannot believe politicians, they do themselves a

:44:48.:44:53.

disservice. Crime started tumbling around 1995, it happened to be

:44:53.:44:56.

under the Conservatives. It was a trend Labour inherited and it went

:44:56.:45:01.

on steeply through labour's period. The Tories refused in opposition to

:45:01.:45:05.

acknowledge this. They come up with a whole load of nonsensical

:45:05.:45:09.

statistical rubbish to tell us that crime was not coming down. It has

:45:09.:45:12.

come down very, very fundamentally. There are Many lessons about why it

:45:12.:45:16.

came down. There are Many lessons about why we did not believe that

:45:16.:45:19.

crime would come down. The narrative they had in America we

:45:19.:45:22.

did not have here. So, great that the politicians are talking about

:45:22.:45:27.

it, but I wish they would put some more science and real fact been

:45:27.:45:32.

twit. Did they get anything right about crime reduction policies,

:45:32.:45:37.

Labour, over that period? You say that the crime rate was coming down,

:45:37.:45:40.

people were getting their cars are alarmed, whatever, but was there

:45:41.:45:43.

anything which struck you during that period that they did get

:45:43.:45:53.
:45:53.:45:54.

Don't dismiss the things you have said dismissively. Crime goes up

:45:54.:45:58.

and crime goes down but Hummer sapiens remain the same from one

:45:59.:46:03.

generation to the next. Roughly speaking, people remain the same.

:46:03.:46:07.

What changes his circumstance. If you have a society where suddenly

:46:07.:46:11.

everybody has the sort of wealth that only the ultra-rich used to

:46:11.:46:16.

have, you have to start locking your doors, like they looked theirs,

:46:16.:46:20.

or had servants to protect them. We had that belatedly so we had a

:46:20.:46:24.

crime wave. When we started looking after our positions, crime came

:46:24.:46:28.

down. Car crime, when I had my first car, if you wanted to get

:46:28.:46:34.

into it you put the window open and pulled a lever and pushed a wire

:46:34.:46:40.

together. Now it is very difficult. Are you saying the politicians

:46:40.:46:44.

cannot have influence over crime policy? Looking at the issue, the

:46:44.:46:52.

contentious issue of bobbies on the beach, it is always essential part

:46:52.:46:57.

of the argument. Yvette Cooper was saying the coalition policy will

:46:57.:47:01.

result in fewer bobbies on the beat. Is it about police on streets?

:47:02.:47:07.

is not. It is in part, but mostly it is about the design of products,

:47:07.:47:10.

services and policies. Labour didn't get it entirely wrong and

:47:10.:47:14.

the Conservatives are putting some effort in as well. We have design

:47:14.:47:18.

against crime. And standards for new houses and so forth. This is

:47:18.:47:22.

really important. It is not the dramatic stuff. One of the things

:47:22.:47:29.

politicians need to do and we as Democrats need to do, and I used to

:47:29.:47:33.

present Crimewatch, finding people on a conveyor belt and taking them

:47:33.:47:36.

to the courts. We need to recognise just is important in its own right

:47:36.:47:41.

but it has a remarkably small effect on crime rates -- justice is

:47:41.:47:47.

important. We need to move the police away from being a come --

:47:47.:47:52.

conveyor belt and being proactive and problem solving. One of the

:47:52.:47:55.

ideas the coalition has had his elected police commissioners. What

:47:55.:48:01.

do you think? It is a pretty poor system on the hole and a pretty

:48:01.:48:05.

poor idea except politically. If he did not have strong policies you

:48:05.:48:10.

have to have a strong sense of momentum, and here is an initiative.

:48:10.:48:15.

That is what Gordon Brown was doing. It will give us a sense of momentum.

:48:15.:48:20.

But where will the people get... It has not as though we are electing

:48:20.:48:25.

people. Do you want to elect your surgeons and pilots? What about

:48:25.:48:30.

somebody like you? There isn't going to be a crime Commissioner

:48:30.:48:36.

for London. My concern is that most people are going to be lay people.

:48:36.:48:43.

They will not know much about it. It is a technical business, how you

:48:43.:48:50.

drive down crime. It is not intuitive. What about victims a

:48:50.:48:58.

law? What Sadiq Khan was talking about? The case is a breath of

:48:58.:49:03.

fresh air and politics. I was on the Advisory Board for victim

:49:03.:49:08.

Support for very many years. Things have improved but the judicial

:49:08.:49:14.

system is adversarial. It is between the guy in the dock being

:49:14.:49:17.

prosecuted and the defence. Unless the witness, the victim is a

:49:17.:49:22.

witness, he or she is irrelevant to the process. It is really important

:49:22.:49:25.

they should be brought in. It will not help reduce crime but it will

:49:25.:49:29.

help us get a better sense of Justice Vos up what about the

:49:29.:49:38.

review, this independent heavy Is it a bit after the event, Labour

:49:38.:49:43.

suggesting this? Yes but when you are in power nobody wants to

:49:43.:49:47.

acknowledge they do not know what they're doing. At the first step

:49:47.:49:52.

Labour is taking is being open about it. We do not understand what

:49:52.:49:58.

causes crime to rise and fall. The Jill Dando is a Jew does Lord

:49:58.:50:08.
:50:08.:50:11.

Stevens does as well. -- Jill Dando We need to have a different

:50:11.:50:15.

attitude to policing. We have to detach from running after things

:50:16.:50:22.

after the event. Thinking more about what police do in football

:50:22.:50:27.

matches, terrorism, organised crime getting upstream. We need to move

:50:28.:50:33.

the whole thing, as we have learned in so many other areas of life,

:50:33.:50:36.

public health is better than patching people up afterwards.

:50:36.:50:41.

is a sort of antiquated service. It these to be modernised and run a

:50:41.:50:44.

little bit more efficiently -- needs to be. Is that what you're

:50:44.:50:49.

saying? Yes, but I'm not saying it will lease to be new. When the

:50:49.:50:53.

police service was founded in 1827 the founders would be horrified at

:50:53.:50:57.

the idea of the police not being detectives. They would have fought

:50:57.:51:01.

against it and they did. Why should police be detectives? We need to

:51:01.:51:10.

think about it. Thank you, and across. Before we go, we will get

:51:10.:51:14.

the answer to yesterday's competition. But back to Andrew

:51:14.:51:19.

first. I am joined by the shadow home

:51:19.:51:23.

secretary, Yvette Cooper. Welcome. We used to talk about Thatcher's

:51:23.:51:28.

children. Do you accept some responsibility for the of riots

:51:28.:51:33.

this summer? In a sense, they were Labour's children. I think you

:51:33.:51:36.

should always do more, go further to get people out of a life of

:51:36.:51:41.

crime. It was shocking what happened in the summer. Crime fell

:51:41.:51:45.

by 40% during Labour's period and that included fewer young people

:51:45.:51:49.

before the riots, few young people going into crime, fewer young

:51:49.:51:53.

offenders. But we ended up with riots, people who were grown-up,

:51:53.:51:58.

not all of them, obviously, but most, their formative experience,

:51:58.:52:03.

school, early life, had been under a Labour government. They were

:52:03.:52:08.

Labour's children. The fact they have been fewer young offenders is

:52:08.:52:11.

important progress. But of course it is the case that there were a

:52:11.:52:15.

lot of those young people, people in their 20s, because some of them

:52:15.:52:19.

were older. Who we have not managed to stop getting into a life of

:52:19.:52:23.

crime. That is why you always need to do more. I would like to see a

:52:23.:52:26.

strong implementation of some of the work being done in Boston and

:52:26.:52:31.

Hackney that targets the gangs. We have set out ways that you could

:52:31.:52:34.

fund that and the Government could start doing it now, so you do not

:52:34.:52:40.

have any repeat of the violence next summer. You have talked about

:52:40.:52:48.

the fall in crime under Labour and boasted about it. That has to be

:52:48.:52:53.

caveat it by the fact it ended in the worst rioting we have seen in a

:52:53.:53:03.
:53:03.:53:04.

generation I spoke to. I spoke to police officers and a were right

:53:04.:53:07.

about public order pressures, the fear of a long, hot summer.

:53:07.:53:12.

they have a sense something would happen? Yes, several senior police

:53:12.:53:15.

officers were worried something would happen. For everybody else it

:53:15.:53:21.

was a surprise for us up exactly. It was a shock. You see people out

:53:21.:53:27.

of control, off the rails. And a sense that the fact the police were

:53:27.:53:33.

not able to hold the streets on the first night made it escalate.

:53:34.:53:38.

People thought they could get away with it. They thought the law would

:53:38.:53:43.

not be enforced. But if you saw it was a long, hot summer, it is all

:53:43.:53:49.

the more surprising that they left as undefended on the first night.

:53:49.:53:52.

don't think the police have anticipated how fast the writers

:53:52.:53:56.

would gather. One police officer said he had never in a 20 year

:53:56.:54:01.

career seen a crowd gathered that fast. And that his social media, a

:54:01.:54:05.

rolling news. But you have to respond to that. If criminals can

:54:05.:54:08.

gather quickly that the police need together quickly. And that means it

:54:09.:54:12.

is madness to make the police officer cuts. You set up the

:54:12.:54:17.

commission on the future of policing. You have chosen John

:54:17.:54:23.

Stevens, who has already attacked the Government's idea of Police

:54:23.:54:27.

Commissioner's -- elected to police commissioners. You have picked Tim

:54:27.:54:31.

Brain, who has criticised the Government cuts already. It sounds

:54:31.:54:34.

like the independent commission is full of people who have already

:54:34.:54:40.

made up their minds what the coalition is doing is wrong and

:54:40.:54:45.

what you will be doing is right. Not very independent. Lord Stevens

:54:45.:54:52.

is across printer in the House of Lords. -- is a crossbencher. All

:54:52.:54:58.

the police are attacking government policy. It makes it easy to find

:54:58.:55:02.

much as police officers but experts on crime, experts on how to bring

:55:02.:55:06.

crime down, all saying that what the Government is doing is madness.

:55:06.:55:10.

You will know that when the public sector gets United to attack those

:55:10.:55:14.

trying to reform it, as Mr Blair reminded us, you end up with scars

:55:14.:55:19.

on your back. It doesn't make them wrong. I can't find anybody who

:55:19.:55:23.

supports what the Government is doing. Anybody who supports 16,000

:55:23.:55:28.

cuts to police officers, support this is some shall organisation and

:55:28.:55:32.

chaos that they are proposing -- support the substantial

:55:32.:55:36.

reorganisation and chaos. Rather than big vision for the future.

:55:36.:55:45.

speak to policemen, and I get a sense that there is a crying need

:55:45.:55:49.

of the police, ordinary police, for a better quality of leadership and

:55:49.:55:54.

a better way their leaders are. It. Do you say that? There are some

:55:54.:55:58.

excellent police leaders. In the 21st century what you want is to

:55:58.:56:01.

draw on the best leadership, promote people fast, and have

:56:01.:56:06.

flexibility as well. I'm sure that there are issues around

:56:06.:56:08.

professionalisation and work force and those are things that will be

:56:08.:56:14.

covered as part of the review. There has been a tendency for

:56:14.:56:17.

ministers to undermine the police in the way they have been handling

:56:17.:56:24.

it and play at being armchair constables. I think some of the

:56:24.:56:31.

things we have been doing... It it is because they have no faith in

:56:31.:56:37.

the police. In August, when things were topping over the edge and we

:56:37.:56:41.

were all concerned, when we did not know whether the violence would be

:56:41.:56:44.

repeated, on that Tuesday, we should have been backing the police

:56:44.:56:47.

and backing respect for the police and the rule of law. The way they

:56:47.:56:53.

handled that, the way they seem to be knocking the police and -- in

:56:53.:57:00.

those sensitive few days was undermining the police at a time

:57:00.:57:04.

when we needed to support them most. There has been a claim that in the

:57:04.:57:08.

event of another leadership contest, your husband would sand if -- stand

:57:08.:57:13.

aside for you. Do you believe him? He said that Ed Miliband was doing

:57:13.:57:20.

a great job and he would carry on being leader for many years to come.

:57:20.:57:25.

Did he say he would not run for leadership again and that he was

:57:25.:57:31.

sad aside for you? Tony take his word,? That is what he said to me

:57:31.:57:36.

before we had the last leadership? These husbands, you cannot trust

:57:36.:57:44.

the! You don't think he will run again as leader? He has been there,

:57:44.:57:49.

done that. He is working very hard and doing a good job. You haven't

:57:49.:57:58.

ruled yourself out. You do always say that. Thank you for being with

:57:58.:58:04.

us. Before we go, time for the answer to the competition. Back in

:58:04.:58:13.

The answer was 1950, Clement Attlee, Winston Churchill, the Korean war

:58:13.:58:20.

were all in there. Nick, you can pick the winner. Everybody here got

:58:20.:58:30.
:58:30.:58:33.

this right? They did. Pick our winner. It is Matthew... Matthew

:58:33.:58:43.
:58:43.:58:47.

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