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Good afternoon. We are live from the this ball, where that sky is | :00:26. | :00:36. | |
blue. -- live from Liverpool. That's the view from the Liverpool | :00:36. | :00:44. | |
Wheel. It is another busy day here at conference. Ed Miliband has been | :00:44. | :00:47. | |
doing his round of morning interviews, which always follows | :00:47. | :00:51. | |
the leader's speech these days. He has a message for you youngsters | :00:51. | :00:55. | |
out there - do not pin your hopes on being the next star of a reality | :00:55. | :01:00. | |
TV show. You know you want to, but the Labour leader says no. His | :01:00. | :01:04. | |
party tonight is hosting its own talent contest. Inside the | :01:04. | :01:13. | |
conference, delegates are still digesting the Miliband speech. The | :01:13. | :01:16. | |
journalists -- he had a good reception here, even though they | :01:16. | :01:20. | |
are not working in the aisles. We will be speaking to the Shadow | :01:20. | :01:23. | |
business secretary. And Giles has been finding out if there is any | :01:23. | :01:28. | |
appetite for a future deal with the Lib Dems. Is there still hope for | :01:28. | :01:34. | |
the Progressive Alliance? Or has Nick Clegg put an end to that? And | :01:34. | :01:40. | |
that's not all. Jo has done a runner, left us. She's back in | :01:40. | :01:45. | |
London. I have hot-footed it back to the capital, where the weather | :01:45. | :01:50. | |
is just as nice. The big story today - Labour accusing the | :01:50. | :01:54. | |
coalition of confusion over police reform. So the party has set up its | :01:54. | :01:57. | |
own review. We will be speaking to the former Crimewatch presenter | :01:57. | :02:06. | |
Nick Ross, and to the Shadow Home Secretary, Yvette Cooper. | :02:06. | :02:11. | |
Yes, all that and a lot more coming up in the next hour. To discuss | :02:11. | :02:15. | |
that, I am joined by Anushka Asthana from the Times, and | :02:15. | :02:19. | |
Benedict Brogan from the Telegraph. So, it is the morning after the | :02:19. | :02:24. | |
night before - what do we think? think the speech has not had a | :02:24. | :02:28. | |
great reception in terms of the newspapers today. I saw that Ed | :02:28. | :02:36. | |
Miliband was asked about Tony Blair this morning, whom of course he | :02:36. | :02:40. | |
mentioned that he was not in the speech, and got cheers. He did not | :02:40. | :02:47. | |
defend Tony Blair that heavily. Should not a leader have said, when | :02:47. | :02:51. | |
he heard the Boeing, have immediately ad-libbed, how dare | :02:51. | :02:56. | |
anybody do that for the most successful Labour leader we ever | :02:56. | :03:00. | |
had, who introduced the minimum wage, built more schools and | :03:00. | :03:05. | |
hospitals than any leader ever? Why did he not do that? There are still | :03:05. | :03:09. | |
plenty of fans of Tony Blair, and this morning they are out raged | :03:09. | :03:14. | |
that he did not say anything. He appears to have associated himself | :03:14. | :03:18. | |
with the jeering of Labour's most successful leader since the war, if | :03:18. | :03:25. | |
not in its entire history. There is some good news for him. He came to | :03:25. | :03:31. | |
Liverpool and advanced an argument. That is refreshing. But it is an | :03:31. | :03:34. | |
argument that everybody is arguing with this morning. The difficulty | :03:34. | :03:37. | |
for him is that in his round of interviews, he spent all of his | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
time explaining what he was trying to say, defending himself about | :03:41. | :03:45. | |
Tony Blair, and even having to answer questions about whether or | :03:45. | :03:49. | |
not he is weird. There is a difficult disconnect for the Labour | :03:49. | :03:54. | |
leader, I would suggest. He says it is the end of the political and | :03:54. | :03:58. | |
economic consensus of the past 30 years. He may be right on that. | :03:58. | :04:02. | |
These things come in cycles. The post-war consensus ended with Mrs | :04:02. | :04:07. | |
Thatcher. It is probably time for a new one to emerge. But if you say | :04:07. | :04:10. | |
something that big is happening, you have to have something quite | :04:10. | :04:15. | |
big to respond to it. I agree. He has got this idea of goodies and | :04:15. | :04:25. | |
:04:25. | :04:27. | ||
baddies, producers and predators, I think it was. The the problem is | :04:27. | :04:30. | |
that it is too much like black-and- white. Everybody has a bit of both. | :04:30. | :04:35. | |
You have these pantomime villains, like Fred Goodwin. He's talking to | :04:35. | :04:42. | |
you, as in, are we the goodies? I'm not sure, maybe I'm a baddie, I'm a | :04:42. | :04:47. | |
journalist. A definitely a baddie, you're a predator. But you at the | :04:47. | :04:52. | |
Telegraph, we do not know. definitely on the good side of the | :04:52. | :04:55. | |
argument. But he has got this big argument and he has not got | :04:55. | :04:59. | |
convincing answers to it. Everybody is puzzled as to what he means. | :04:59. | :05:04. | |
Does it mean that as Mr Hi! -- bad businesses will be taxed more than | :05:04. | :05:14. | |
others? We remember Gordon Brown going around like a bear with a | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
sore head after the Sun dumped him. Ed Miliband was not quite like that | :05:18. | :05:23. | |
this morning. This is what he had to say. Are you saying you want to | :05:23. | :05:27. | |
fight the gas and electricity companies? Just remind me, who was | :05:27. | :05:31. | |
the Secretary of State for energy quite recently? Me, and that's why | :05:31. | :05:36. | |
I took action. Did you take them on? You guessed, I did. Talk to | :05:36. | :05:40. | |
them about it. I took action on prices, on pre-payment meters. But | :05:40. | :05:48. | |
there's more that we can do. People are saying, hold on, he wrote the | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
rules - on Energy, on debt finance, which led to Southern Cross, you | :05:52. | :05:58. | |
were there. A was there, and I do not say we did everything right. | :05:58. | :06:02. | |
I'm proud of what we did. On the crucial issue of pre-payment meters, | :06:02. | :06:07. | |
for example, we took action. Ask the companies themselves whether | :06:07. | :06:11. | |
Ray gave them an easy ride, and they will say I did not. I'm | :06:11. | :06:14. | |
determined that we complete that work, which we would have done if | :06:14. | :06:19. | |
we had been re-elected. mentioned good business and bad | :06:19. | :06:24. | |
business - British Airways, is that a good business? The most important | :06:24. | :06:28. | |
distinction I make is between good business practices and bad business | :06:28. | :06:34. | |
practices. I'm not going to typecast one industry. So, let's | :06:34. | :06:43. | |
talk about British Aerospace... It is the subject of a fraud inquiry. | :06:43. | :06:47. | |
I know what good business is about. It is about training your workforce, | :06:47. | :06:55. | |
it is about sustainable wealth, not wealth which is built on sand. Of | :06:55. | :07:00. | |
course you need defence manufacturers in your economy. | :07:00. | :07:04. | |
about private-equity companies? So, provided you train people and spend | :07:04. | :07:10. | |
money on research...? Sustainable wealth, that is what is about. It | :07:10. | :07:15. | |
is more complicated than just to say it is about a few evil people. | :07:15. | :07:18. | |
The rules were not right, they encouraged the wrong things, not | :07:19. | :07:23. | |
the right things. You could say, let's just carry on as we are. | :07:24. | :07:28. | |
Let's say the banking crisis was simply a local difficulty. Icesave | :07:28. | :07:33. | |
this is a moment when we have got to change. This is not anti- | :07:33. | :07:43. | |
:07:43. | :07:45. | ||
business. It is anti-business as usual. Let me comeback to a matter | :07:45. | :07:49. | |
mention by Ben, the question on the Today Programme, people think you | :07:49. | :07:54. | |
are weird... Before coming here, partly because the new channels are | :07:54. | :07:58. | |
full of the Michael Jackson trial, I tried to watch some other things. | :07:58. | :08:04. | |
I came across Channel Five, the show with a live audience in the | :08:04. | :08:09. | |
mornings, not with people like this, just ordinary daytime viewers. They | :08:09. | :08:13. | |
ran a clip of Ed Miliband, and the whole audience started to snigger | :08:13. | :08:17. | |
and burst into laughter. The presenter, quite pro-Labour, put | :08:17. | :08:22. | |
his head in his hands, like that. That's a real problem. I think it | :08:22. | :08:27. | |
can be a problem. It is a real shame that that was the reaction. | :08:27. | :08:33. | |
It takes time to put that right. With Mr Hague and Iain Duncan Smith, | :08:33. | :08:39. | |
for the Tories, it never happened.. But it can happen for some people. | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
David Cameron was not as impressive in the early days as he later | :08:43. | :08:47. | |
became. I'm not sure it can, in this case. First impressions are | :08:47. | :08:51. | |
terribly important. The danger is that Ed Miliband is crystallising | :08:52. | :08:57. | |
the minds of the public as somebody who is slightly so regal, slightly | :08:57. | :09:01. | |
goofy looking. Somebody who is not quite in tune with them. -- | :09:02. | :09:09. | |
cerebral. We have not got that much time left. The William Hague of | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
this conference, Rory Weal, it turns out, according to some of the | :09:13. | :09:17. | |
papers, he was not born in a shoe and brought up in the middle of a | :09:17. | :09:21. | |
roundabout, after all. But you have interviewed him. You can have a | :09:21. | :09:25. | |
minute to defend him, and you have a minute to say whatever you want. | :09:25. | :09:29. | |
He probably should have mentioned that she had gone to private school. | :09:29. | :09:33. | |
But he never claimed that he lived a life of poverty. One point he | :09:33. | :09:37. | |
made to me was that actually, people who sometimes need the | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
benefits system are not the stereotypes that you talk about. He | :09:40. | :09:45. | |
never lied, his house was repossessed. He was remiss in what | :09:45. | :09:50. | |
he should have told us. Perhaps it was a sin of omission. But he is a | :09:50. | :09:54. | |
16-year-old. How many 16-year-olds can do what he did yesterday. Very | :09:54. | :10:02. | |
few, but then he does go to a grammar school. I found him great, | :10:02. | :10:07. | |
he was a normal kid. He loved football, Charlton Athletic. I | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
should have noticed that she had a season ticket for Charlton Athletic, | :10:10. | :10:17. | |
which obviously wasn't that cheap. You warmed to him? Yes, he's just a | :10:17. | :10:21. | |
very nice, personable 16-year-old. I was impressed with what he did. | :10:21. | :10:25. | |
He should have mentioned his dad and the money. But the reality is | :10:25. | :10:30. | |
that his house did get repossessed. The you will probably turn out to | :10:30. | :10:37. | |
be a brilliant politician because he has mastered the art of being | :10:37. | :10:41. | |
economical with the truth. And he is a walking, talking advertisement | :10:41. | :10:47. | |
for private education as well. Would you like a badge? I love | :10:47. | :10:50. | |
Rupert Murdoch? He is your proprietor, I would like to remind | :10:50. | :11:00. | |
:11:00. | :11:01. | ||
you. This one, I love Ed. I will take, I love deficit reduction. The | :11:01. | :11:06. | |
thank you very much to both of you. Let's go back to London. Open the | :11:06. | :11:10. | |
papers, turn on the television, and the parts of Ed Miliband's speech | :11:10. | :11:14. | |
which are being picked over are the bits about business. Labour's big | :11:15. | :11:18. | |
game hunters stepped into the conference jungle yesterday, and he | :11:18. | :11:23. | |
had some big targets in his sights. He took aim at predatory private- | :11:23. | :11:29. | |
equity firms, like the one which bought and eventually closed | :11:29. | :11:34. | |
Southern Cross care homes, Blackstone. He could not resist | :11:34. | :11:41. | |
firing off a few rounds at ex-RBS chief Fred Goodwin. But he was keen | :11:41. | :11:45. | |
to recognise good firms, what he termed producers, like Rolls-Royce, | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
who are creating wealth and keeping jobs in this country. He made it | :11:49. | :11:52. | |
clear he would favour these firms and government. | :11:52. | :11:56. | |
We must learn the lesson that growth is built on sand if it comes | :11:56. | :12:00. | |
from our predators and not our producers. For years, as a country, | :12:00. | :12:05. | |
we have been neutral in that battle. They have been taxed, regulated, | :12:05. | :12:10. | |
celebrated the same - they will not be by me. We need the most | :12:10. | :12:12. | |
competitive tax and regulatory environment for business that we | :12:12. | :12:19. | |
can have. When I am Prime Minister, how we tax, how we relegate, what | :12:19. | :12:23. | |
government buys, will be in the service of Britain's producers. | :12:23. | :12:28. | |
That did not go down well with big business beasts. Former trade | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
minister Lord Digby Jones called minister Lord Digby Jones called | :12:33. | :12:35. | |
the remarks divisive and a kick in the teeth for business. In contrast, | :12:35. | :12:39. | |
the speech was it would meet for those on the left. Len McCluskey | :12:39. | :12:44. | |
eulogised that there was a phoenix rising from the ashes, with Labour | :12:44. | :12:48. | |
becoming a peoples Party. Joining me now, from the Conservative Party, | :12:48. | :12:53. | |
me now, from the Conservative Party, Michael Fallon. Do you agree that | :12:53. | :12:55. | |
the something for something mantra that he used will resonate well | :12:55. | :13:01. | |
people? But what did they do about it over 13 years? They did not do | :13:01. | :13:02. | |
it over 13 years? They did not do anything about welfare reform. | :13:02. | :13:06. | |
They're not backing our changes on welfare reform to make sure that | :13:06. | :13:15. | |
you have to work to claim benefit. Just not backing the changes. They | :13:15. | :13:19. | |
are talking about this. They did not do it when they were in office. | :13:19. | :13:22. | |
You could argue that they did actually have a welfare programme | :13:22. | :13:25. | |
in place, and they have said that they would use more stick and | :13:25. | :13:34. | |
carrot. But you couldn't disagree with the idea of something for | :13:34. | :13:39. | |
something? No, but you have to ask why they did not do it successfully | :13:39. | :13:43. | |
in government, why they had so many people claiming benefit, and why it | :13:43. | :13:47. | |
is still more worthwhile to claim benefit and to work. We're changing | :13:47. | :13:51. | |
that. We have got a bill changing that at the moment. The locals are | :13:51. | :13:55. | |
in a sense, you agree on that level, even if you are doing different | :13:55. | :13:59. | |
things about it. He also agree with the idea of ending the era of the | :13:59. | :14:09. | |
:14:09. | :14:17. | ||
fast buck? You agree with him on that as well? We are regulating the | :14:17. | :14:27. | |
:14:27. | :14:47. | ||
banks properly and putting the Bank We were warning about it. Lots of | :14:47. | :14:51. | |
people were warning about it. Lots of people were saying, this thing | :14:51. | :14:55. | |
is getting out of control, and when it ended up with the banks going | :14:55. | :15:00. | |
bust. We are now having to clear up that mess. That's why we are | :15:00. | :15:03. | |
reforming banking regulation and making sure it does not happen | :15:03. | :15:08. | |
again. So, in a sense, you are at one with what Ed Miliband is saying. | :15:08. | :15:12. | |
You are saying they should be regulation, they should be some | :15:12. | :15:16. | |
controls on what banks and may be big in the business does. In a way, | :15:16. | :15:20. | |
you are agree with that line, that it is the end of that era, it is | :15:20. | :15:30. | |
:15:30. | :15:35. | ||
the end of the fast buck, the end He say you need to divide companies | :15:35. | :15:39. | |
into good cafes and bad companies, some are producers, and nobody | :15:39. | :15:49. | |
:15:49. | :15:50. | ||
knows how you define them. It takes you back to the kind of picking | :15:50. | :15:53. | |
winners and so one of the 1970s if you say that they are different. | :15:53. | :16:01. | |
Are you saying there is not to case about having an argument where, | :16:01. | :16:06. | |
cannot he be the middle guide between people who exploit the | :16:06. | :16:10. | |
welfare state and businesses that made money on the back of | :16:10. | :16:13. | |
speculation. You are always having to improve regulation because they | :16:13. | :16:18. | |
fail to regulate the banks properly. The Conservatives didn't come in at | :16:18. | :16:21. | |
the time and say. He is going further and say in government | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
ministers should make moral decisions about which companies are | :16:25. | :16:30. | |
better. Wise's boots a predator? Are you saying it is not possible | :16:30. | :16:33. | |
or desirable to reward good businesses with tax breaks and | :16:33. | :16:39. | |
investments? Good businesses are rewarding themselves by attracting | :16:39. | :16:42. | |
more shareholding, making profits for the shareholders. There is | :16:42. | :16:48. | |
already plenty of corporate guidance and so on. But what | :16:48. | :16:55. | |
ministers cannot do is say, you are a good business and you are a bad | :16:55. | :17:00. | |
one. The Federation of Schmoll businesses had criticism along | :17:00. | :17:06. | |
those lines but said Ed Miliband had a good idea -- Federation of | :17:06. | :17:12. | |
school businesses. Do you not agree? We can always improve | :17:13. | :17:17. | |
regulation. We are doing that. is more than that. He is saying | :17:18. | :17:22. | |
something different. He is trying to say that ministers should make | :17:22. | :17:28. | |
moral judgments. I don't think they should go so far as deciding what a | :17:28. | :17:33. | |
good and bad company is. Were you celebrating in Conservative Central | :17:34. | :17:41. | |
Office is as has been reported? I have not heard that. It has not | :17:41. | :17:44. | |
been a good walk. On Monday we didn't have a credible economic | :17:45. | :17:48. | |
plan from Ed Balls and yesterday we have a speech from Miliband which | :17:48. | :17:55. | |
is already falling apart. It hasn't been a good week. It has been | :17:55. | :18:01. | |
confused and rather weak. Back to Andrew in the Conference Centre. | :18:01. | :18:07. | |
We are joined by the Shadow Business Secretary, John Denham. | :18:07. | :18:15. | |
The leader of the opposition told Nick Robinson that he didn't want | :18:15. | :18:23. | |
wealth built on sand. But when your government was taking billions and | :18:23. | :18:26. | |
billions of pounds in revenues from banks like the Royal Bank of | :18:26. | :18:31. | |
Scotland and others in the mid- part of the decade to, using it to | :18:31. | :18:36. | |
build schools and hospitals, was that wealth built on sand? | :18:36. | :18:40. | |
reality was that that approach to the economy wasn't one that is | :18:40. | :18:43. | |
sustainable in the long term. That is why Ed Miliband was talking | :18:43. | :18:47. | |
about the rules. You didn't know at the time. When you were taking all | :18:47. | :18:51. | |
that money, billions of pounds from financial-services, you didn't know. | :18:51. | :18:55. | |
You certainly didn't say it was wealth built on sand. The point | :18:55. | :19:00. | |
about where we are now after losing an election and after the banking | :19:00. | :19:04. | |
crisis is to say, do we understand what needs to be done in the | :19:04. | :19:08. | |
future? We have a record that I am proud. But there were things that | :19:08. | :19:11. | |
happened and things we didn't get right that we need to change in the | :19:11. | :19:21. | |
future. My point is, you do not know, we do not know when wealth is | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
built on sand and when it isn't. Who would have thought that the | :19:25. | :19:30. | |
Royal Bank of Scotland turned out to be well built on sand? I think | :19:30. | :19:35. | |
we can say that if we have as many companies a possible who invest | :19:35. | :19:39. | |
long term, who trained staff, who take the environment seriously, | :19:39. | :19:42. | |
which want their customers to be with them in 15 years' time and not | :19:43. | :19:47. | |
just in 15 minutes, those countries are the ones that are most likely | :19:47. | :19:53. | |
to bring success to this country. We don't have an environment that | :19:53. | :19:57. | |
fosters that. It is often been possible to make more money by | :19:57. | :20:01. | |
doing more short-term things than by building a long-term business. | :20:01. | :20:05. | |
What government has to do more seriously than we have done before | :20:05. | :20:08. | |
is create the environment for those good companies to grow. Firstly, | :20:08. | :20:11. | |
you will not get good companies without good government. If | :20:11. | :20:16. | |
government jobs and changes its policy... Willie penalise countries | :20:16. | :20:22. | |
that do not follow the Government's rules? You have to get incentives | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
right in the first place. It is recognising that if the rules of | :20:26. | :20:31. | |
the game are that you can make more money than speculation than | :20:31. | :20:36. | |
investing long-term, people will. Let us get the rules right. This | :20:36. | :20:40. | |
company is full of companies -- this country is full of companies | :20:40. | :20:45. | |
that invest for the long term. you look at the economy, there are | :20:45. | :20:49. | |
not enough of them for the size of a country to pay away in the world. | :20:49. | :20:52. | |
We have brilliant companies but we also have companies with business | :20:53. | :21:01. | |
models that a more short-term. example. I will not name any. | :21:01. | :21:07. | |
you can't name companies, it is impossible to have a proper debate. | :21:07. | :21:10. | |
It is a theoretical debate for an Oxbridge Common Room. It is talking | :21:10. | :21:17. | |
about features in companies, training, Ferrar conditions. We | :21:17. | :21:22. | |
need more of those conditions and more sectors of the economy. | :21:22. | :21:25. | |
Everything we cut of about doing is changing the rules of the economy. | :21:25. | :21:29. | |
Which falls? Rules on investment return for example, which means | :21:29. | :21:33. | |
they can be incentives to buy into a young company and then sell it on | :21:33. | :21:37. | |
within five years, instead of keeping your cup listen to enable | :21:37. | :21:44. | |
it to grow. We need to make more small companies become bigger | :21:44. | :21:48. | |
companies. How do you know it might not be a good thing to sell the | :21:49. | :21:54. | |
company on in five years to another company? A trade sale that wants to | :21:54. | :21:58. | |
acquire it and grow it? How can you stop it on know whether it is good? | :21:58. | :22:03. | |
You have to make judgments on what deals you is a device. I wouldn't | :22:03. | :22:07. | |
want to stand in the way of somebody who got Investment and | :22:07. | :22:11. | |
chose to sell on after five years. Too many small businesses say they | :22:11. | :22:16. | |
have no option. That when you get venture capital in after five years | :22:16. | :22:21. | |
the capital has to be released. We can look at how you change the | :22:21. | :22:25. | |
rules to foster different behaviour. It means making judgements about | :22:25. | :22:29. | |
the business models you want to reward. How many ministers in the | :22:29. | :22:33. | |
shadow cabinet have first-hand business experience? I don't know | :22:33. | :22:39. | |
how many do. I haven't done a head count. Who has? I set up the social | :22:39. | :22:44. | |
enterprise myself very successfully 30 years ago. Did you have any | :22:44. | :22:48. | |
business folk in the cabinet? have business people around the | :22:48. | :22:54. | |
party. In the cabinet? I don't think there are any that come to | :22:54. | :22:58. | |
mind that have made their main careers in business. And yet you | :22:58. | :23:03. | |
think you can judge? Your shadow cabinet has no business experience | :23:03. | :23:07. | |
yet you think you can judge when wealth is not based on sand, when | :23:07. | :23:10. | |
it would be good or bad to sell a company on in five years' time, | :23:10. | :23:15. | |
whether venture-capital lays down the right decisions? You have no | :23:15. | :23:19. | |
qualifications for any of that. What was said yesterday and what I | :23:19. | :23:25. | |
was saying, has not come out of thin air. If you talk about | :23:25. | :23:29. | |
business, this is a discussion they are they having. It is the conflict | :23:29. | :23:32. | |
between long-term wealth creation and short-term decisions. The | :23:32. | :23:38. | |
dilemmas faced by small companies that want to grow. This is not a | :23:38. | :23:41. | |
Labour party invented debate. It is what British business is talk about | :23:41. | :23:45. | |
today. The reason we are talking about it is because we have been | :23:45. | :23:47. | |
listening to businesses says the last election and that is what they | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
are asking us to raise and to talk about. That has not been the | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
reaction of business. Every spokesman we have heard from his | :23:54. | :23:58. | |
very sniffy about what you are proposing. Tell me one major | :23:58. | :24:03. | |
business figure that has supported the line Mr Miliband took yesterday. | :24:03. | :24:09. | |
John Cridland from the CBI. Not to tour. He bangs the idea of | :24:09. | :24:19. | |
:24:19. | :24:22. | ||
customers investing in the long term. -- he backs the idea. That is | :24:22. | :24:28. | |
not controversial. At the moment we do not have a system of incentives, | :24:28. | :24:30. | |
government policy-making, rewards, which fosters those types of | :24:30. | :24:37. | |
business. He didn't do that for 14 years in power? -- you didn't. | :24:37. | :24:41. | |
invest in training. We had crucial decisions that Ed was talking about | :24:41. | :24:47. | |
earlier. Energy policy that laid down a long time frame mark. You're | :24:47. | :24:52. | |
telling us now you have to take the six major energy companies over | :24:52. | :24:59. | |
predatory pricing. We did some of the things but not all of them. If | :24:59. | :25:02. | |
you are saying we shouldn't try to make this choice, try to foster | :25:02. | :25:12. | |
:25:12. | :25:21. | ||
that environment, I did believe There is nothing wrong about the | :25:21. | :25:25. | |
investment bank. But if you buy into a company, loaded with Betts, | :25:25. | :25:28. | |
strip its assets and leave it as a husk, that is not a helpful | :25:28. | :25:38. | |
business model. Tuna was investment banks do? They offer a range of | :25:38. | :25:47. | |
mergers and acquisitions and a You are saying, if you are going to | :25:47. | :25:56. | |
be in that activity, do tax was -- awards reward the merges? If they | :25:56. | :26:00. | |
do, that is good. If government gets the rules wrong and they can | :26:00. | :26:04. | |
make more money by taking assets out, you don't own the company for | :26:04. | :26:08. | |
that. The individuals involved. You say government has to get the rules | :26:08. | :26:15. | |
right. Were you proud of your party when Tony Blair was booed | :26:15. | :26:24. | |
yesterday? Ed Miliband was clear. He said he was his own man. He said | :26:24. | :26:29. | |
this morning that this was the end of the Thatcher-Blair era. To the | :26:29. | :26:32. | |
extent that the idea was that we should be completely neutral about | :26:32. | :26:36. | |
which types of business models that took place as long as they were | :26:36. | :26:40. | |
business. We have to go beyond that. If we pay our way in a world that | :26:40. | :26:44. | |
has a rising China, a rise in India, we need more of those companies | :26:44. | :26:47. | |
that will invest in the long term. Can you understand why people are | :26:47. | :26:54. | |
puzzled that your own party should do what was regarded as the most | :26:54. | :26:57. | |
successful leader -- should be doing what was regarded as the most | :26:58. | :27:06. | |
successful leader. I was in the hall. With a Tory conference ever | :27:06. | :27:13. | |
do that to Margaret Thatcher? don't think so. What did you say | :27:13. | :27:17. | |
about Gordon and Tony? Two of the greatest leader the party has ever | :27:17. | :27:26. | |
had. Did they applaud that? they did. Are you sure? We will | :27:26. | :27:29. | |
have to look at the Tate. Thank you for being a with us. | :27:29. | :27:37. | |
Last week at the Liberal Democrat conference we sent the mood box out | :27:37. | :27:40. | |
to see who delegates would prefer to go into coalition with should | :27:40. | :27:46. | |
there be a hung parliament in 2015. Tory or Labour? Delegates said they | :27:46. | :27:51. | |
fancied Labour over the Tories. We went out this week to see if the | :27:51. | :27:55. | |
feelings were reciprocated. Someone has tried to walk off with | :27:55. | :28:00. | |
some of the mood box balls. We have lost them. But the question is | :28:00. | :28:06. | |
today, should Ed Miliband rule out a coalition with the Lib Dems? It | :28:06. | :28:15. | |
takes two seconds. Whichever one you think. You are really need out. | :28:15. | :28:24. | |
Excellent. I expected there to be a coalition so he knows what would | :28:24. | :28:30. | |
happen. Should he rule out a coalition with the Lib Dems? We | :28:30. | :28:36. | |
don't ask easy questions. They are angry about what Nick Clegg has | :28:36. | :28:43. | |
is progressive and that will do the right thing to Britain that is not | :28:43. | :28:48. | |
led by the Tories. It is the right thing to leave the options open for | :28:48. | :28:52. | |
a start you are catching us on the end of Ed Miliband's speech so we | :28:52. | :29:01. | |
are feeling positive. It is a good thing to feel positive. You think | :29:01. | :29:06. | |
it is sensible. Is that heart ruling head? I think so. If you | :29:06. | :29:13. | |
have the chance to go to government you should take it. It is just | :29:13. | :29:17. | |
sensible politics? There would have to be a new leader. Obviously not | :29:17. | :29:24. | |
Vince Cable or Nick Clegg. Maybe Charles Kennedy again. Should Ed | :29:24. | :29:31. | |
without a coalition with the Lib Dems? That would be like having a | :29:31. | :29:35. | |
coalition with the Conservatives, so very much he should rule it out. | :29:35. | :29:42. | |
We may not need them but you have to keep it open. Should he rule out | :29:42. | :29:48. | |
a coalition with the Lib Dems? heart says rule it out. My head | :29:48. | :29:51. | |
says, if his -- if it was a few of them and a lot of us, and the | :29:51. | :29:54. | |
difference between us and them and the tourists and them, we would | :29:54. | :30:02. | |
have to consider it. But it would go against the grey mack -- go | :30:02. | :30:12. | |
:30:12. | :30:22. | ||
It is the trade unionists and the MPs that do this. Howard Wilson | :30:22. | :30:27. | |
said, a day in politics is a long time, and that's why I'm leaving my | :30:27. | :30:31. | |
options open. It is closer than most have been this week, but it is | :30:31. | :30:41. | |
still definitely rule it out which is winning at the halfway stage. | :30:41. | :30:45. | |
think we ought to go it alone. If we are a minority government, so be | :30:45. | :30:52. | |
it. Tell me, is there a reason why it. Tell me, is there a reason why | :30:52. | :30:55. | |
all the MPs are options open, and the delegates are, well in it out? | :30:55. | :31:01. | |
We are sensible realists. I think the Lib Dems will be very good, | :31:01. | :31:11. | |
particularly those who have got more in common with Labour. More | :31:11. | :31:16. | |
people would like Ed to read aloud a coalition with the Lib Dems, but | :31:16. | :31:26. | |
:31:26. | :31:27. | ||
there are the pragmatists, who want options to be left open. Am joined | :31:27. | :31:31. | |
now by the MP for Ian Murray, and by the self-styled sensible realist, | :31:31. | :31:41. | |
:31:41. | :31:46. | ||
Tessa Jowell. Let me ask you this - given that we may be in an era of | :31:46. | :31:53. | |
hung parliaments, we do not know, but we might be, surely, any party | :31:53. | :31:57. | |
would be sensible not to read aloud any option. I think that's right. | :31:57. | :32:02. | |
Other than the national Front, or whatever. That's right. And that is | :32:02. | :32:08. | |
what being a sensible realist means. But also, nobody won the last | :32:08. | :32:11. | |
election, and we do not know what the public mood will be that the | :32:11. | :32:19. | |
time we get to the next election. So, I think the right thing is to | :32:19. | :32:24. | |
campaign for an outright majority... Of course. And then, if there is | :32:24. | :32:27. | |
not an outright majority, but in the event that Labour was the | :32:27. | :32:32. | |
largest party, to look at the feasibility and desirability of | :32:32. | :32:35. | |
coalition, consistent with the policies that you have campaigned | :32:35. | :32:42. | |
on. What would your view be? It is up to the voters to decide. If they | :32:42. | :32:45. | |
decide they do not want the Liberal Democrats forming any part of any | :32:45. | :32:49. | |
government, then they will say so at the ballot box. But you could | :32:49. | :32:53. | |
only do that if you wiped out the Liberal Democrats altogether. When | :32:53. | :32:56. | |
voters vote for individual parties, we do not know if they are also | :32:56. | :32:59. | |
voting for the Lib Dems to be holding the balance of power. | :32:59. | :33:03. | |
would not rule it out in terms of doing any deal with the Liberal | :33:03. | :33:07. | |
Democrats, in the sense that we want rid of this rotten | :33:07. | :33:10. | |
Conservative government. But the bottom line is the trust issue, for | :33:10. | :33:14. | |
me. The pledges that have been broken by Nick Clegg. There is no | :33:14. | :33:17. | |
doubt that the Labour Party is the only progressive party left in the | :33:17. | :33:23. | |
country. The voters will decide. the voters decide to make you the | :33:23. | :33:28. | |
largest party, but without an overall majority, but the Lib Dems | :33:28. | :33:31. | |
still have enough seats, that with them, you could form an overall | :33:31. | :33:37. | |
majority, what would your advice be? It would be a very, very bitter | :33:37. | :33:41. | |
pill to swallow, but if it meant that the Conservatives were removed | :33:41. | :33:44. | |
from power, and Labour could take progressive policies to the country, | :33:44. | :33:48. | |
then we would have to think about doing a deal. But Nick Clegg would | :33:48. | :33:54. | |
be very much a barrier to that. Miliband has said that we could not | :33:54. | :33:59. | |
do a deal with Nick Clegg as leader - is that still the situation, is | :33:59. | :34:05. | |
it a sensible position to be in?. think that at this stage, 3.5 years | :34:05. | :34:13. | |
from an election, it is very hard to lay down firm conditions, other | :34:13. | :34:19. | |
than that we're going to campaign for a majority government. In the | :34:19. | :34:23. | |
circumstances of the time, unionist has yet, and you decide whether | :34:23. | :34:27. | |
you're going to be a minority government on what is called | :34:27. | :34:31. | |
confidence and supply, where you have agreement issue by issue, or | :34:31. | :34:36. | |
whether you can actually become a full coalition. Ian is right, full | :34:36. | :34:39. | |
coalition has to be consistent with progressive values, and it also has | :34:39. | :34:44. | |
to be consistent with what people have voted for Labour to achieve in | :34:44. | :34:50. | |
government. You sound, if I may say so, a bit like a number of Tory MPs | :34:50. | :34:54. | |
at the moment, who wish that they had not gone into coalition with | :34:54. | :34:59. | |
the Lib Dems, and had formed a minority government on this supply | :34:59. | :35:03. | |
and confident basis which Tessa Jowell is talking about. In the | :35:03. | :35:11. | |
circumstances, is that not what you would really prefer? I have been | :35:11. | :35:15. | |
called a lot of things, but never a Tory. We are stuck in a very | :35:15. | :35:24. | |
dangerous austerity package. But I am talking about 2015. The Liberal | :35:24. | :35:27. | |
Democrats have endorsed an austerity package which they do not | :35:27. | :35:31. | |
believe in. We have to put a strong message to the British people, | :35:31. | :35:36. | |
which says that if you want a progressive party in charge... | :35:36. | :35:40. | |
getting enough stuff like that from the conference, I'm asking you a | :35:40. | :35:44. | |
specific question, that in the circumstances of you being the | :35:44. | :35:48. | |
largest party, and without an overall majority, would you not | :35:48. | :35:52. | |
prefer, as many Tory MPs would have done in the same circumstance, to | :35:52. | :35:59. | |
remain a minority government, with a supply and confident steal? | :35:59. | :36:05. | |
believe in leaving those options open. You do not sound enthusiastic | :36:05. | :36:10. | |
about a coalition. It depends on the numbers. If you fall so far | :36:10. | :36:13. | |
away from having an absolute majority, then you might have to | :36:13. | :36:17. | |
form a coalition. But otherwise, supply and demand should not be | :36:17. | :36:22. | |
rule out. There is also a difference, if I can say, between | :36:22. | :36:28. | |
the prospect of being a minority government, but with a sufficient | :36:28. | :36:32. | |
number of seats to form a majority coalition with the Liberal | :36:32. | :36:39. | |
Democrats, and being the largest party but a minority government, | :36:39. | :36:43. | |
and having to cobbled-together enough seats with a whole lot of | :36:44. | :36:50. | |
other minority parties. I think then, quite honestly, the price of | :36:50. | :36:53. | |
being in government is just too high, financially, because of what | :36:53. | :37:00. | |
they demand, and also, it stretches credibility. And understand that, | :37:00. | :37:05. | |
but will this not change our politics? The possibility of a hung | :37:05. | :37:07. | |
parliament in the run-up to the last election was the kind of | :37:08. | :37:11. | |
elephant in the room, nobody talked about it, but it was there. Now | :37:11. | :37:16. | |
that we have got a coalition, if, in the next campaign, the polls | :37:16. | :37:19. | |
show there is likely to be no clear-cut winner, this will affect | :37:19. | :37:23. | |
the campaign, and people like me will ask people like you what | :37:23. | :37:29. | |
positions you're taking in the event of a coalition. It will be a | :37:29. | :37:33. | |
different kind of election... would give you the same answer, | :37:33. | :37:37. | |
that we are campaigning for an outright majority. But I will say, | :37:38. | :37:42. | |
we know that, but are you prepared if we do not get it to do a deal | :37:42. | :37:46. | |
with the Liberals? And the answer would be, of course, if we are the | :37:46. | :37:50. | |
largest party, we would look at the possibility of coalition in order | :37:50. | :37:54. | |
to form a majority government, consistent with the policies in our | :37:54. | :38:04. | |
manifesto. It will affect the election campaign,, won't you? | :38:04. | :38:07. | |
There is no doubt that it will change the way you campaign. We | :38:07. | :38:17. | |
:38:17. | :38:27. | ||
will all be campaigning to be the On that shock revelation from Tessa | :38:27. | :38:36. | |
Jowell, campaign to win, it's back to Jo in London. Now to the | :38:36. | :38:39. | |
conference floor. Ed Miliband got cheers yesterday when he said he | :38:39. | :38:42. | |
wasn't Tony Blair. But today, the Shadow Home Secretary, Yvette | :38:42. | :38:46. | |
Cooper, has told them that Tony Blair was right, at least on the | :38:46. | :38:50. | |
subject of law and order, with his famous mantra, tough on crime, | :38:50. | :38:53. | |
tough on the causes of crime. Remember that? We will hear what | :38:53. | :38:57. | |
she had to stay in a moment. But first, this is what Sidique Khan | :38:57. | :39:01. | |
had to say to conference. In the past 12 months, the challenges for | :39:01. | :39:06. | |
the justice system have become all too apparent. The groups and | :39:06. | :39:11. | |
campaign organisations I have met, the prisons, young offenders' | :39:11. | :39:16. | |
institutions and courts I have visited, the judiciary and legal | :39:16. | :39:21. | |
professionals I have listened to, and the victims whose experiences I | :39:21. | :39:30. | |
have heard. Take one couple who, following the tragic murder of | :39:30. | :39:33. | |
their young son, have channelled all of their energy into working | :39:33. | :39:38. | |
towards a safer community for young people across London through a | :39:38. | :39:45. | |
Foundation. I'm honoured to have Barry advising my policy review. As | :39:45. | :39:52. | |
you know, I shadow the Justice Secretary, Ken Clarke. Somebody | :39:52. | :39:56. | |
once said to me that one downside of being in the shadow cabinet is | :39:56. | :40:02. | |
that you begin to resemble the Cabinet Minister you shudder. Well, | :40:02. | :40:11. | |
so far, I do not wear Hush puppies, don't smoke cigars, and manage to | :40:11. | :40:16. | |
stay a week during my leader's speech. -- to stay awake. Because | :40:16. | :40:21. | |
of Ken Clarke and his Government's policies, the ministry of justice | :40:21. | :40:25. | |
faces a budget cut of a quarter, risking the effective functioning | :40:25. | :40:31. | |
of our justice system. Dedicated, experienced professionals and the | :40:31. | :40:34. | |
prison and probation service face uncertainty about the future of | :40:34. | :40:40. | |
their crucial work. Even his own chief Inspector of Prisons, Nick | :40:40. | :40:46. | |
Hardwick, said, this month, he has found no evidence at all of a | :40:46. | :40:56. | |
:40:56. | :41:10. | ||
Bid will be enshrined in statute, so that the rights of bereaved | :41:10. | :41:15. | |
families, of victims of homicide, are honoured. It will deliver | :41:15. | :41:19. | |
effective justice and treat victims with respect and dignity. | :41:19. | :41:22. | |
Supporting victims through all stages of the process, including | :41:22. | :41:27. | |
the deeply traumatic experience of one a case reaches court. Under | :41:27. | :41:31. | |
Labour, victims will be at the heart of the justice system. I will | :41:31. | :41:35. | |
work with victims groups to make sure we get this right. Conference, | :41:35. | :41:39. | |
the riots this summer show that we need a government which is not out | :41:39. | :41:45. | |
of touch. Our country deserves better than what we have got. We | :41:45. | :41:50. | |
need to make important decisions on crime and justice at the same time | :41:50. | :41:55. | |
as making tough fiscal choices. At Ken Clarke and his government are | :41:55. | :42:00. | |
getting these choices wrong. It will be down to us to put it right. | :42:00. | :42:04. | |
There is only one party that can be trusted on law and order, and | :42:04. | :42:12. | |
that's us, the Labour Party. Thank you very much. Tony Blair was right | :42:12. | :42:15. | |
- tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime, because it worked. | :42:15. | :42:20. | |
Crime fell by 40%, the first government since records began | :42:20. | :42:25. | |
where crime went down, not up, 7 million fewer crimes a year. That | :42:25. | :42:35. | |
:42:35. | :42:37. | ||
is Labour's record, and we should be proud of it. But we know that | :42:37. | :42:44. | |
crime is still too high. We want crime to fall further. But the | :42:44. | :42:52. | |
Tories don't get it. I don't think they ever did. In 1978, Jaxx Mark | :42:52. | :42:56. | |
came to Labour Party conference from Castleford, in my constituency, | :42:56. | :43:01. | |
and he said of the Tories then, they do not have to live in | :43:01. | :43:04. | |
vandalised communities, they do not have to drive the trams which have | :43:04. | :43:08. | |
missiles thrown into the camps, they do not have to take charge of | :43:08. | :43:18. | |
:43:18. | :43:20. | ||
the buses and deal with the rowdies. My old friend Jack was right. Can | :43:20. | :43:24. | |
you imagine David Cameron and George Osborne dealing with the | :43:24. | :43:34. | |
:43:34. | :43:35. | ||
rowdy is? Rowdies Of their own, they can't even deal with Boris | :43:35. | :43:40. | |
Johnson. And what is David Cameron's answer to crime? 20% | :43:40. | :43:47. | |
front loaded cuts to the police. It is shocking. 650 police officers | :43:47. | :43:53. | |
cut from Merseyside, 750 for Wales, 1,200 from the West Midlands, | :43:53. | :43:58. | |
nearly 2000 officers from the Met. Right across the country, 16,000 | :43:58. | :44:02. | |
police officers lost. This is a reckless risk to take with the | :44:03. | :44:11. | |
fight against crime. With me now, the former presenter of Crimewatch | :44:11. | :44:15. | |
Nick Ross, also the chairman of the Jill Dando Institute of Security | :44:15. | :44:19. | |
and Crime Science at University College London. Let's go back to | :44:19. | :44:22. | |
the beginning, if you like, when it comes to Labour's record. That | :44:22. | :44:26. | |
phrase, tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime - did they live | :44:27. | :44:32. | |
up to it in 13 years? Well, it is a meaningless expression, isn't it? | :44:32. | :44:34. | |
meaningless expression, isn't it? Memorable, but meaningless. Yvette | :44:34. | :44:38. | |
Cooper's, and was also memorable but meaningless, about Labour's | :44:38. | :44:44. | |
record of crime going down 40%. She's a good politician, but she | :44:44. | :44:48. | |
betrays why we cannot believe politicians, they do themselves a | :44:48. | :44:53. | |
disservice. Crime started tumbling around 1995, it happened to be | :44:53. | :44:56. | |
under the Conservatives. It was a trend Labour inherited and it went | :44:56. | :45:01. | |
on steeply through labour's period. The Tories refused in opposition to | :45:01. | :45:05. | |
acknowledge this. They come up with a whole load of nonsensical | :45:05. | :45:09. | |
statistical rubbish to tell us that crime was not coming down. It has | :45:09. | :45:12. | |
come down very, very fundamentally. There are Many lessons about why it | :45:12. | :45:16. | |
came down. There are Many lessons about why we did not believe that | :45:16. | :45:19. | |
crime would come down. The narrative they had in America we | :45:19. | :45:22. | |
did not have here. So, great that the politicians are talking about | :45:22. | :45:27. | |
it, but I wish they would put some more science and real fact been | :45:27. | :45:32. | |
twit. Did they get anything right about crime reduction policies, | :45:32. | :45:37. | |
Labour, over that period? You say that the crime rate was coming down, | :45:37. | :45:40. | |
people were getting their cars are alarmed, whatever, but was there | :45:41. | :45:43. | |
anything which struck you during that period that they did get | :45:43. | :45:53. | |
:45:53. | :45:54. | ||
Don't dismiss the things you have said dismissively. Crime goes up | :45:54. | :45:58. | |
and crime goes down but Hummer sapiens remain the same from one | :45:59. | :46:03. | |
generation to the next. Roughly speaking, people remain the same. | :46:03. | :46:07. | |
What changes his circumstance. If you have a society where suddenly | :46:07. | :46:11. | |
everybody has the sort of wealth that only the ultra-rich used to | :46:11. | :46:16. | |
have, you have to start locking your doors, like they looked theirs, | :46:16. | :46:20. | |
or had servants to protect them. We had that belatedly so we had a | :46:20. | :46:24. | |
crime wave. When we started looking after our positions, crime came | :46:24. | :46:28. | |
down. Car crime, when I had my first car, if you wanted to get | :46:28. | :46:34. | |
into it you put the window open and pulled a lever and pushed a wire | :46:34. | :46:40. | |
together. Now it is very difficult. Are you saying the politicians | :46:40. | :46:44. | |
cannot have influence over crime policy? Looking at the issue, the | :46:44. | :46:52. | |
contentious issue of bobbies on the beach, it is always essential part | :46:52. | :46:57. | |
of the argument. Yvette Cooper was saying the coalition policy will | :46:57. | :47:01. | |
result in fewer bobbies on the beat. Is it about police on streets? | :47:02. | :47:07. | |
is not. It is in part, but mostly it is about the design of products, | :47:07. | :47:10. | |
services and policies. Labour didn't get it entirely wrong and | :47:10. | :47:14. | |
the Conservatives are putting some effort in as well. We have design | :47:14. | :47:18. | |
against crime. And standards for new houses and so forth. This is | :47:18. | :47:22. | |
really important. It is not the dramatic stuff. One of the things | :47:22. | :47:29. | |
politicians need to do and we as Democrats need to do, and I used to | :47:29. | :47:33. | |
present Crimewatch, finding people on a conveyor belt and taking them | :47:33. | :47:36. | |
to the courts. We need to recognise just is important in its own right | :47:36. | :47:41. | |
but it has a remarkably small effect on crime rates -- justice is | :47:41. | :47:47. | |
important. We need to move the police away from being a come -- | :47:47. | :47:52. | |
conveyor belt and being proactive and problem solving. One of the | :47:52. | :47:55. | |
ideas the coalition has had his elected police commissioners. What | :47:55. | :48:01. | |
do you think? It is a pretty poor system on the hole and a pretty | :48:01. | :48:05. | |
poor idea except politically. If he did not have strong policies you | :48:05. | :48:10. | |
have to have a strong sense of momentum, and here is an initiative. | :48:10. | :48:15. | |
That is what Gordon Brown was doing. It will give us a sense of momentum. | :48:15. | :48:20. | |
But where will the people get... It has not as though we are electing | :48:20. | :48:25. | |
people. Do you want to elect your surgeons and pilots? What about | :48:25. | :48:30. | |
somebody like you? There isn't going to be a crime Commissioner | :48:30. | :48:36. | |
for London. My concern is that most people are going to be lay people. | :48:36. | :48:43. | |
They will not know much about it. It is a technical business, how you | :48:43. | :48:50. | |
drive down crime. It is not intuitive. What about victims a | :48:50. | :48:58. | |
law? What Sadiq Khan was talking about? The case is a breath of | :48:58. | :49:03. | |
fresh air and politics. I was on the Advisory Board for victim | :49:03. | :49:08. | |
Support for very many years. Things have improved but the judicial | :49:08. | :49:14. | |
system is adversarial. It is between the guy in the dock being | :49:14. | :49:17. | |
prosecuted and the defence. Unless the witness, the victim is a | :49:17. | :49:22. | |
witness, he or she is irrelevant to the process. It is really important | :49:22. | :49:25. | |
they should be brought in. It will not help reduce crime but it will | :49:25. | :49:29. | |
help us get a better sense of Justice Vos up what about the | :49:29. | :49:38. | |
review, this independent heavy Is it a bit after the event, Labour | :49:38. | :49:43. | |
suggesting this? Yes but when you are in power nobody wants to | :49:43. | :49:47. | |
acknowledge they do not know what they're doing. At the first step | :49:47. | :49:52. | |
Labour is taking is being open about it. We do not understand what | :49:52. | :49:58. | |
causes crime to rise and fall. The Jill Dando is a Jew does Lord | :49:58. | :50:08. | |
:50:08. | :50:11. | ||
Stevens does as well. -- Jill Dando We need to have a different | :50:11. | :50:15. | |
attitude to policing. We have to detach from running after things | :50:16. | :50:22. | |
after the event. Thinking more about what police do in football | :50:22. | :50:27. | |
matches, terrorism, organised crime getting upstream. We need to move | :50:28. | :50:33. | |
the whole thing, as we have learned in so many other areas of life, | :50:33. | :50:36. | |
public health is better than patching people up afterwards. | :50:36. | :50:41. | |
is a sort of antiquated service. It these to be modernised and run a | :50:41. | :50:44. | |
little bit more efficiently -- needs to be. Is that what you're | :50:44. | :50:49. | |
saying? Yes, but I'm not saying it will lease to be new. When the | :50:49. | :50:53. | |
police service was founded in 1827 the founders would be horrified at | :50:53. | :50:57. | |
the idea of the police not being detectives. They would have fought | :50:57. | :51:01. | |
against it and they did. Why should police be detectives? We need to | :51:01. | :51:10. | |
think about it. Thank you, and across. Before we go, we will get | :51:10. | :51:14. | |
the answer to yesterday's competition. But back to Andrew | :51:14. | :51:19. | |
first. I am joined by the shadow home | :51:19. | :51:23. | |
secretary, Yvette Cooper. Welcome. We used to talk about Thatcher's | :51:23. | :51:28. | |
children. Do you accept some responsibility for the of riots | :51:28. | :51:33. | |
this summer? In a sense, they were Labour's children. I think you | :51:33. | :51:36. | |
should always do more, go further to get people out of a life of | :51:36. | :51:41. | |
crime. It was shocking what happened in the summer. Crime fell | :51:41. | :51:45. | |
by 40% during Labour's period and that included fewer young people | :51:45. | :51:49. | |
before the riots, few young people going into crime, fewer young | :51:49. | :51:53. | |
offenders. But we ended up with riots, people who were grown-up, | :51:53. | :51:58. | |
not all of them, obviously, but most, their formative experience, | :51:58. | :52:03. | |
school, early life, had been under a Labour government. They were | :52:03. | :52:08. | |
Labour's children. The fact they have been fewer young offenders is | :52:08. | :52:11. | |
important progress. But of course it is the case that there were a | :52:11. | :52:15. | |
lot of those young people, people in their 20s, because some of them | :52:15. | :52:19. | |
were older. Who we have not managed to stop getting into a life of | :52:19. | :52:23. | |
crime. That is why you always need to do more. I would like to see a | :52:23. | :52:26. | |
strong implementation of some of the work being done in Boston and | :52:26. | :52:31. | |
Hackney that targets the gangs. We have set out ways that you could | :52:31. | :52:34. | |
fund that and the Government could start doing it now, so you do not | :52:34. | :52:40. | |
have any repeat of the violence next summer. You have talked about | :52:40. | :52:48. | |
the fall in crime under Labour and boasted about it. That has to be | :52:48. | :52:53. | |
caveat it by the fact it ended in the worst rioting we have seen in a | :52:53. | :53:03. | |
:53:03. | :53:04. | ||
generation I spoke to. I spoke to police officers and a were right | :53:04. | :53:07. | |
about public order pressures, the fear of a long, hot summer. | :53:07. | :53:12. | |
they have a sense something would happen? Yes, several senior police | :53:12. | :53:15. | |
officers were worried something would happen. For everybody else it | :53:15. | :53:21. | |
was a surprise for us up exactly. It was a shock. You see people out | :53:21. | :53:27. | |
of control, off the rails. And a sense that the fact the police were | :53:27. | :53:33. | |
not able to hold the streets on the first night made it escalate. | :53:34. | :53:38. | |
People thought they could get away with it. They thought the law would | :53:38. | :53:43. | |
not be enforced. But if you saw it was a long, hot summer, it is all | :53:43. | :53:49. | |
the more surprising that they left as undefended on the first night. | :53:49. | :53:52. | |
don't think the police have anticipated how fast the writers | :53:52. | :53:56. | |
would gather. One police officer said he had never in a 20 year | :53:56. | :54:01. | |
career seen a crowd gathered that fast. And that his social media, a | :54:01. | :54:05. | |
rolling news. But you have to respond to that. If criminals can | :54:05. | :54:08. | |
gather quickly that the police need together quickly. And that means it | :54:09. | :54:12. | |
is madness to make the police officer cuts. You set up the | :54:12. | :54:17. | |
commission on the future of policing. You have chosen John | :54:17. | :54:23. | |
Stevens, who has already attacked the Government's idea of Police | :54:23. | :54:27. | |
Commissioner's -- elected to police commissioners. You have picked Tim | :54:27. | :54:31. | |
Brain, who has criticised the Government cuts already. It sounds | :54:31. | :54:34. | |
like the independent commission is full of people who have already | :54:34. | :54:40. | |
made up their minds what the coalition is doing is wrong and | :54:40. | :54:45. | |
what you will be doing is right. Not very independent. Lord Stevens | :54:45. | :54:52. | |
is across printer in the House of Lords. -- is a crossbencher. All | :54:52. | :54:58. | |
the police are attacking government policy. It makes it easy to find | :54:58. | :55:02. | |
much as police officers but experts on crime, experts on how to bring | :55:02. | :55:06. | |
crime down, all saying that what the Government is doing is madness. | :55:06. | :55:10. | |
You will know that when the public sector gets United to attack those | :55:10. | :55:14. | |
trying to reform it, as Mr Blair reminded us, you end up with scars | :55:14. | :55:19. | |
on your back. It doesn't make them wrong. I can't find anybody who | :55:19. | :55:23. | |
supports what the Government is doing. Anybody who supports 16,000 | :55:23. | :55:28. | |
cuts to police officers, support this is some shall organisation and | :55:28. | :55:32. | |
chaos that they are proposing -- support the substantial | :55:32. | :55:36. | |
reorganisation and chaos. Rather than big vision for the future. | :55:36. | :55:45. | |
speak to policemen, and I get a sense that there is a crying need | :55:45. | :55:49. | |
of the police, ordinary police, for a better quality of leadership and | :55:49. | :55:54. | |
a better way their leaders are. It. Do you say that? There are some | :55:54. | :55:58. | |
excellent police leaders. In the 21st century what you want is to | :55:58. | :56:01. | |
draw on the best leadership, promote people fast, and have | :56:01. | :56:06. | |
flexibility as well. I'm sure that there are issues around | :56:06. | :56:08. | |
professionalisation and work force and those are things that will be | :56:08. | :56:14. | |
covered as part of the review. There has been a tendency for | :56:14. | :56:17. | |
ministers to undermine the police in the way they have been handling | :56:17. | :56:24. | |
it and play at being armchair constables. I think some of the | :56:24. | :56:31. | |
things we have been doing... It it is because they have no faith in | :56:31. | :56:37. | |
the police. In August, when things were topping over the edge and we | :56:37. | :56:41. | |
were all concerned, when we did not know whether the violence would be | :56:41. | :56:44. | |
repeated, on that Tuesday, we should have been backing the police | :56:44. | :56:47. | |
and backing respect for the police and the rule of law. The way they | :56:47. | :56:53. | |
handled that, the way they seem to be knocking the police and -- in | :56:53. | :57:00. | |
those sensitive few days was undermining the police at a time | :57:00. | :57:04. | |
when we needed to support them most. There has been a claim that in the | :57:04. | :57:08. | |
event of another leadership contest, your husband would sand if -- stand | :57:08. | :57:13. | |
aside for you. Do you believe him? He said that Ed Miliband was doing | :57:13. | :57:20. | |
a great job and he would carry on being leader for many years to come. | :57:20. | :57:25. | |
Did he say he would not run for leadership again and that he was | :57:25. | :57:31. | |
sad aside for you? Tony take his word,? That is what he said to me | :57:31. | :57:36. | |
before we had the last leadership? These husbands, you cannot trust | :57:36. | :57:44. | |
the! You don't think he will run again as leader? He has been there, | :57:44. | :57:49. | |
done that. He is working very hard and doing a good job. You haven't | :57:49. | :57:58. | |
ruled yourself out. You do always say that. Thank you for being with | :57:58. | :58:04. | |
us. Before we go, time for the answer to the competition. Back in | :58:04. | :58:13. | |
The answer was 1950, Clement Attlee, Winston Churchill, the Korean war | :58:13. | :58:20. | |
were all in there. Nick, you can pick the winner. Everybody here got | :58:20. | :58:30. | |
:58:30. | :58:33. | ||
this right? They did. Pick our winner. It is Matthew... Matthew | :58:33. | :58:43. | |
:58:43. | :58:47. |