Browse content similar to 01/11/2011. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics. | :00:23. | :00:26. | |
The City of London is telling the anti-capitalist campers they've got | :00:26. | :00:31. | |
48 hours to leave, or face eviction. Could this lead to running battles | :00:31. | :00:36. | |
on the steps of St Paul's? The UK economy grew by 0.5% between | :00:36. | :00:39. | |
July and September, a surprise for many, so is it proof the | :00:39. | :00:46. | |
Government's plan is working? Meanwhile, the Greek Prime Minister | :00:46. | :00:49. | |
has stunned the rest of Europe by announcing a referendum on the | :00:49. | :00:53. | |
latest bail-out deal. So, does the whole future of the eurozone now | :00:53. | :00:59. | |
hang on the result? And, the Prime Minister has always | :00:59. | :01:02. | |
vowed to protect Britain's aid budget, but a lot of his own | :01:02. | :01:07. | |
backbenchers are sceptical. So is it time to look at where the money | :01:07. | :01:15. | |
is going? All that in the next half hour. Jo | :01:15. | :01:18. | |
and Andrew are off today, so joining me for the whole programme | :01:18. | :01:22. | |
is Dame Barbara Stocking, the chief executive of Oxfam. Welcome to the | :01:22. | :01:27. | |
Daily Politics. Hello. I'd like to get your thoughts on what's | :01:27. | :01:30. | |
happening down at St Paul's today, where the protesters look as if | :01:30. | :01:33. | |
they're going to be served with legal papers giving them 48 hours | :01:33. | :01:36. | |
to pack their tents. But first, let's get the latest from our | :01:36. | :01:44. | |
correspondent down there, Tamsin Smith. There's a real sense that | :01:44. | :01:48. | |
anticipation is building here. We know there's a meeting ongoing at | :01:48. | :01:52. | |
the Guildhall, where they are hammering out the details of an | :01:52. | :01:56. | |
eviction notice that is going to be served to the protest camp. You can | :01:56. | :02:00. | |
see the camp behind me. They've set up a university, where they are | :02:00. | :02:05. | |
having elects tures, and debates. There are portaloos, a media point, | :02:06. | :02:10. | |
and so they are very much bedding down to stay. It's been a very damp | :02:10. | :02:15. | |
night. There are lots of duvets out airing, but they say that, despite | :02:15. | :02:19. | |
they eviction notice which is going to be served by the City of London | :02:19. | :02:22. | |
Corporation, they will not be moving. They say that, in fact, | :02:22. | :02:27. | |
more protesters will be coming to join them. Interestingly, they say | :02:27. | :02:32. | |
they are also getting lots of funding as well. �1,000 a day, we | :02:32. | :02:37. | |
hear, is pouring in to help fund the protest camp here. And it | :02:37. | :02:44. | |
continues to be an embarrassment, an acute embarrassment for St | :02:44. | :02:46. | |
Paul's Cathedral, who want to stress today that the eviction | :02:46. | :02:51. | |
notice is not being served by them but by the Corporation of London. | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
Do you think there's a risk that the protest might become | :02:54. | :02:58. | |
confrontation as a result of all of this? Sorry, I missed that question. | :02:58. | :03:02. | |
Do you think this protest could become confrontation as a result of | :03:02. | :03:06. | |
this eviction notice? Well, there is not a sense of that. Certainly | :03:06. | :03:11. | |
it is very peaceful at the moment. I've been speaking to some of the | :03:11. | :03:16. | |
protesters, asking them about how long they think they will stay. | :03:16. | :03:20. | |
They say they are happy to stay here until Christmas. Interestingly, | :03:20. | :03:26. | |
they say that this whole debacle, the dilemma it has put the Church | :03:26. | :03:30. | |
in, they say it is positive for them, because it is helping to draw | :03:30. | :03:34. | |
attention to their cause, which primarily is one of anti-capitalism, | :03:34. | :03:39. | |
but you might have seen behind me some of the banners here. There's a | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
raft of disparate cause, very disparate me messages. There isn't | :03:43. | :03:47. | |
a huge sense of cohesion, in terms of the message they are putting | :03:47. | :03:52. | |
across at the moment, but they are riding on the back of the dilemma | :03:52. | :03:58. | |
that's engulfed the St Paul's Cathedral at this moment. Thank you. | :03:58. | :04:03. | |
Dame barb remarks what do you make of what's going on at St Paul's? | :04:03. | :04:08. | |
is going on all over the world. I was in America last week, in | :04:08. | :04:11. | |
Washington and New York, and you've got people camped out there. They | :04:11. | :04:15. | |
are the tip of an iceberg of a lot of people who are really worried | :04:15. | :04:18. | |
about the way the free market system works, and what's happened | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
to banks and the financial system and so on. So they are a small | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
group but they certainly represent a lot hor of the thinking and | :04:26. | :04:31. | |
concern that there is. There are protests two a penny day in and day | :04:31. | :04:37. | |
out, yet why is this one getting the coverage and the impact that | :04:37. | :04:42. | |
others don't? I guess it is because it is global. Also because I think | :04:42. | :04:46. | |
it hits this core that people have, that's what has happened in the | :04:46. | :04:50. | |
last few years in the economy is not fair, not fair for the poorest | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
people in the UK, not fair for the middle income groups who are seeing | :04:54. | :04:58. | |
all the jobs going. People genuinely feel that something is | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
happening here that is not fair. They are not against the Government | :05:01. | :05:05. | |
dealing with the debt crisis but they are saying, "Why is it us?" | :05:05. | :05:09. | |
you think the reason it is making an impact is, in your view, the | :05:09. | :05:15. | |
rightness of the cause, not the tactics they are using in terms of | :05:15. | :05:19. | |
the occupation and the taking on the Church in the City of London? | :05:19. | :05:23. | |
It is a bit of both. A lot of people fundamentally agree with | :05:23. | :05:27. | |
their concerns. They may not agree with camping outside St Paul's. But | :05:27. | :05:32. | |
as they've said on reporting from St Paul's, they've been given a | :05:32. | :05:36. | |
media blessing by the sense of the eviction and all the concerns. Can | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
I understand why the protesters are saying this is getting us into the | :05:39. | :05:44. | |
media and that's good news, it is amplyifying our voice now. Is Oxfam | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
going to learn there from this in the way you campaign? I don't think | :05:48. | :05:51. | |
there is anything wrong with what they are doing as long as they are | :05:51. | :05:55. | |
peaceful. The worry is you might get into a violent situation now. | :05:55. | :05:58. | |
It is perfectly sensible for people to want to demonstrate about things | :05:58. | :06:03. | |
that are wrong in their own society. We would absolutely back that. The | :06:03. | :06:06. | |
tricky bit is it is not entirely clear which bits they are really | :06:06. | :06:09. | |
campaigning against, but that general sense of unease with the | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
economy. Barbara, for now, thank you. | :06:14. | :06:17. | |
So, the latest growth figures are out, and for once the Government | :06:18. | :06:21. | |
may well have let out a sigh of relief. The figures are the first | :06:22. | :06:25. | |
estimate of the third quarter of 2011 and they show that Britain's | :06:25. | :06:28. | |
economy grew by 0.5%, a little better than the 0.3% many expected. | :06:28. | :06:32. | |
However, to give this some context, growth in the last quarter was 0.1%, | :06:32. | :06:36. | |
so some rise was expected. Ed Balls argued earlier in the week that | :06:36. | :06:39. | |
growth would need to be 1.3% for the Government to meet its targets. | :06:39. | :06:42. | |
What's more, separate figures out this morning show that the | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
manufacturing sector shrank by the sharpest rate since June 2009, when | :06:46. | :06:49. | |
Britain was still in recession. Speaking earlier this morning, | :06:49. | :06:51. | |
however, the Chancellor, George Osborne, welcomed the growth | :06:51. | :07:01. | |
:07:01. | :07:03. | ||
figures. I think this is a positive step forward for the British | :07:03. | :07:06. | |
commitment it's a better figure than some were expecting this week, | :07:06. | :07:10. | |
given what's happening in the world. And, of course, the British economy | :07:10. | :07:14. | |
has got a difficult journey to take from its debt-fuelled past. That's | :07:15. | :07:19. | |
a journey made more difficult by the kind of problems you see today | :07:19. | :07:22. | |
in the eurozone. But the important thing is today we took a step down | :07:22. | :07:27. | |
that road the road will lead to recovery and prosperity. As the | :07:27. | :07:31. | |
Chancellor said, across the Channel things aren't looking good. | :07:31. | :07:33. | |
Yesterday the OECD downgraded its growth predictions for the eurozone | :07:33. | :07:38. | |
in 2012 from 2% to 0.3%. And this morning the markets took a tumble | :07:38. | :07:42. | |
as they digested the news that the Greek Government has decided to put | :07:42. | :07:45. | |
its latest austerity plans to a referendum. Most opinion polls show | :07:45. | :07:48. | |
a majority of Greeks don't support the measure, and if the vote is | :07:48. | :07:55. | |
lost, it could derail the EU's recovery plans. With us now is the | :07:55. | :08:01. | |
economist, Vicky Pryce, who is Greek herself. Welcome to you. From | :08:01. | :08:05. | |
the Labour frontbench, Chris Leslie, and for the Conservatives, Matt | :08:05. | :08:08. | |
Hancock, a former Bank of England economist and adviser to George | :08:08. | :08:14. | |
Osborne. Welcome to you all. Vicky Pryce, can I begin with you? �0.5%, | :08:14. | :08:19. | |
what can we take from that, what does it mean for the economy? | :08:19. | :08:25. | |
of all it is better than expected, so that is good news. Everybody | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
indicator we've seen in the last couple of months suggests that in | :08:28. | :08:31. | |
fact we are moving into a slower pace of growth, with manufacturing | :08:31. | :08:36. | |
being hit. And the services sector, which did so well in the last | :08:36. | :08:40. | |
quarter it is now also slowing down. Europe is very significant for us. | :08:40. | :08:44. | |
Manufacturing itself, which had done rather well because of Germany | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
in particular, having become a locomotive for growth, is going to | :08:49. | :08:52. | |
suffer, because Germany itself hurts now, showing signs of not | :08:52. | :08:57. | |
growing at all. So a glimmer of positive news for the last three | :08:57. | :09:01. | |
months but it is looking pretty grim for the next three? It does. | :09:01. | :09:08. | |
We had recovered from the previous three months. We had a series of | :09:08. | :09:11. | |
accidents like the bad weather, and then the Royal Wedding. The | :09:11. | :09:15. | |
problems in Japan with the tsunami and the nuclear explosion that we | :09:15. | :09:22. | |
had. There was a serious slowdown in demand for goods in the whole | :09:22. | :09:26. | |
region really, because basically we were exporting quite a lot to them | :09:26. | :09:30. | |
as well. That's recovered. It had to recover, but it is not | :09:30. | :09:34. | |
sustainable, given what's going on around the world. The OECD figures, | :09:34. | :09:38. | |
the forecasts now which are so low, suggest that the problems are going | :09:38. | :09:44. | |
to be significant in 2012 as well. Matt Hancock, how do you tackle the | :09:44. | :09:48. | |
criticism that the Government's policies aren't working enough | :09:48. | :09:51. | |
simply because there is not enough growth in the system, there is no | :09:51. | :09:55. | |
sign of it to come? I'm not sure that's the criticism. I agreed with | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
almost everything that Vicky said. These figures are better than | :09:59. | :10:03. | |
expected, so they are positive, and positive news in that sense. But of | :10:03. | :10:08. | |
course the world economy is in a very difficult place. We learn that | :10:08. | :10:11. | |
Italian Government bonds for instance, interest rates in Italy | :10:11. | :10:16. | |
are now over 6%, which is crippling for them. I look at that and I | :10:16. | :10:20. | |
think, thank goodness that isn't us. So, of course it is very difficult, | :10:20. | :10:26. | |
but the best thing that we can do is make sure that we have the UK as | :10:26. | :10:31. | |
a port of stability in this great crisis that's going on around the | :10:31. | :10:35. | |
world rather than itself facing the wrath of the markets, who are after | :10:35. | :10:40. | |
all the people that we borrowed all this money from. So Chris Leslie a | :10:41. | :10:45. | |
port of stability? I worry there's a bit of complacency creeping in | :10:45. | :10:51. | |
here. I think the idea that 0.5 % growth is a great triumph or even a | :10:51. | :10:55. | |
sign of recovery moving forward, as the Chancellor seems to have | :10:55. | :10:58. | |
sometimes suggest is completely out of touch with reality. The | :10:58. | :11:01. | |
Government shouldn't be taking any comfort from these statistics. | :11:01. | :11:05. | |
Particularly when all the for tents are in terms of manufacturing we're | :11:05. | :11:09. | |
back into contraction, according to the PMI index today. The | :11:09. | :11:14. | |
construction sector has fallen back by 4% in the last year. This is | :11:14. | :11:18. | |
0.5% growth since the Chancellor's great Spending Review. The previous | :11:18. | :11:23. | |
year before that, 2.6%. We really have had a recovery that was | :11:23. | :11:26. | |
completely choked off by the decisions that the Chancellor has | :11:26. | :11:32. | |
made. They are going to try to use this eurozone crisis as an alibi by | :11:32. | :11:38. | |
the export situation doesn't stand up to that story. This is a move | :11:38. | :11:42. | |
backwards because of the choices, the idealogical choices that the | :11:42. | :11:45. | |
Chancellor of the Exchequer has made. A lot of the Treasury | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
background today has been, look, we are in a global crisis, there was a | :11:49. | :11:54. | |
crisis in the eurozone, we are not an island, the politics of John | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
Dunn. How do you respond to that criticism? The policies the | :11:58. | :12:02. | |
Government are mer suing have an impact on growth at the moment. | :12:02. | :12:07. | |
This is an international very difficult situation. The idea that | :12:07. | :12:11. | |
any of the tone of what I've been saying is anything other than that | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
we are in this difficult situation and we are trying to get Britain | :12:15. | :12:19. | |
through it. But what you don't do to get through it is to borrow more, | :12:19. | :12:25. | |
when the problem is that we are in a debt crisis. So, it is, it is | :12:25. | :12:29. | |
serious, it is difficult. What we need to do, I think actually, is on | :12:29. | :12:34. | |
the growth side we need to do more to get growth growing. So for | :12:34. | :12:37. | |
instance, let me give you an example. Make it easier to employ | :12:37. | :12:42. | |
people, by changing from one year to two years the merd that you can | :12:42. | :12:49. | |
employ them -- the period that you can employ them. You can make all | :12:49. | :12:52. | |
the supply-side changes, but if demand isn't there it doesn't | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
matter how much you change employment law. That's why I | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
thought it was right that the Bank of England engaged in another round | :12:59. | :13:03. | |
of qeezing to get money flowing. And we are going to go into credit | :13:03. | :13:06. | |
easing, which is about getting that money into small businesses. The | :13:06. | :13:10. | |
question for people like cries, you can't borrow your way out of a debt | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
crisis. Are they going to support the other measures we are taking to | :13:14. | :13:17. | |
get growth going? You can't cut yourself out of this situation | :13:17. | :13:23. | |
either. Cut sog far and so fast as George Osborne has done has caused | :13:23. | :13:27. | |
problems. It is important that you listen to the people of Britain, | :13:27. | :13:31. | |
who are compass rated by this Government's failure to do anything | :13:31. | :13:35. | |
on growth. The idea that removing employment rights is going to be | :13:35. | :13:39. | |
the salvation for our economy is completely off the planet. It is | :13:39. | :13:46. | |
time you started to take serious measures to boost growth, cutting | :13:46. | :13:52. | |
VAT or putting a banker bonus levy. We've got a five-point plan. What | :13:52. | :13:56. | |
do you make of this debate and are you in Oxfam getting some impact? | :13:56. | :14:00. | |
What impact is it having on organisations like your known | :14:00. | :14:10. | |
:14:10. | :14:11. | ||
the moment, not too bad that. Comes -- not too bad. People are | :14:11. | :14:14. | |
concerned and generous about people internationally. Our income from | :14:14. | :14:17. | |
the public has stayed the same. The thing it does do is nobody will | :14:17. | :14:21. | |
commit to the future. Everybody knows that something may happen to | :14:21. | :14:25. | |
their job, so we don't get new people signing. What do you mean by | :14:25. | :14:30. | |
that? We have 400,000 people who commit to giving to Oxfam regularly | :14:30. | :14:34. | |
a fixed amount on direct debit. We can't get new people to sign up to | :14:34. | :14:39. | |
that. They are too uncertain about what will happen to them in future. | :14:39. | :14:43. | |
There is plenty of uncertainty about but for us people have | :14:43. | :14:53. | |
:14:53. | :14:56. | ||
Minimising that uncertainty is so important for the future. We need | :14:56. | :15:01. | |
to minimise that rather than borrowing further. Talking of | :15:01. | :15:07. | |
uncertainty, Vicki - a referendum in Greece. How much uncertainty in | :15:07. | :15:14. | |
the short term has that placed over the whole eurozone packet? Huge. | :15:14. | :15:20. | |
Everyone was shocked to hear that they have called for a referendum, | :15:20. | :15:29. | |
and a very interested to hear why they should have done it. Whatever | :15:29. | :15:32. | |
happens between now and when the second bail-out package comes in | :15:32. | :15:35. | |
and then austerity measures for the next couple of years have to be | :15:35. | :15:40. | |
passed, he needs to know he has the backing of his parliament. | :15:40. | :15:46. | |
isn't the risk enormous? It is huge. First of all, we are not sure | :15:46. | :15:50. | |
whether a referendum will take place. He has to pass a confidence | :15:50. | :15:54. | |
vote first of all this week, which includes the referendum. If he | :15:54. | :15:59. | |
doesn't pass that, we will have elections. And what that means is a | :15:59. | :16:03. | |
huge uncertainty over the coming few months anyway. But in addition, | :16:03. | :16:08. | |
what it has shown is that we cannot rely on the deal that has been | :16:08. | :16:14. | |
agreed just a few days ago. It may all be reopened. The uncertainty | :16:14. | :16:18. | |
about the situation is very worrying, and they think if we were | :16:18. | :16:23. | |
genuinely worried, we would have a stronger economy that could | :16:23. | :16:26. | |
withstand some of these international wobbles. | :16:26. | :16:31. | |
Unfortunately, because we are so flatlining in terms of this | :16:31. | :16:35. | |
negligible growth, any internal event destabilise the market and | :16:35. | :16:40. | |
put our economy in jeopardy. This is why we have to have a strong and | :16:40. | :16:44. | |
positive efforts, not just here at home for growth, but the Chancellor | :16:44. | :16:48. | |
and a prime minister who will argue for growth and jobs in Europe. That | :16:48. | :16:53. | |
was the missing factor and a lot of the euro-zone arrangements. | :16:53. | :16:57. | |
Do you think as some Euro-sceptics in your party believe, that this is | :16:57. | :17:00. | |
the moment, if a referendum takes place, that could see the | :17:00. | :17:04. | |
withdrawal of Greece from the euro, and that could bring the whole | :17:04. | :17:09. | |
house tumbling down? They are lobbying with glee about this. | :17:09. | :17:13. | |
the referendum is past, that will give the Greek Prime Minister a | :17:13. | :17:17. | |
strong mandate to drive through the changes to deal with their debts. | :17:17. | :17:22. | |
At the end of the day, at the heart of this crisis, it is a debt crisis. | :17:22. | :17:28. | |
In Greece, in Italy, across the eurozone and here in the UK. That | :17:28. | :17:31. | |
is what the Greek Prime Minister is having a referendum, in order to | :17:31. | :17:39. | |
get the mandate to deal with it. And the problem? Some people may | :17:39. | :17:44. | |
say that a disorganised downfall would be a good idea. I think it is | :17:44. | :17:48. | |
in Britain's economic interests that the euro is strong. Thank you | :17:48. | :17:53. | |
very much indeed for joining us all here today. This debate is clearly | :17:53. | :17:57. | |
one that is going to go on and on. This weekend, the Prime Minister | :17:57. | :18:01. | |
was promising to get tough when it comes to which countries should get | :18:01. | :18:06. | |
aid from Britain, and warned regimes with bad rates on human | :18:06. | :18:09. | |
rights that they might not get cash. But Tory backbenchers are still | :18:09. | :18:13. | |
worried about the size of the Budget at the Department for | :18:13. | :18:15. | |
International Development. Adam has investigated. | :18:15. | :18:19. | |
On a visit to Kenya, then Development Secretary Andrew | :18:19. | :18:22. | |
Mitchell, the only Cabinet minister whose budget is protected from the | :18:22. | :18:27. | |
cuts. It is part of a pledge to eventually bring spending on eight | :18:27. | :18:37. | |
:18:37. | :18:38. | ||
up to 0.7% of national income. -- spending on aid. It will go up from | :18:38. | :18:45. | |
�5 billion a year in 2006 to �7.7 billion now. Earlier this year, | :18:45. | :18:49. | |
there were a couple of big reviews, which saw the number of countries | :18:49. | :18:54. | |
receiving aid from us from 43-27. Places like Russia and China came | :18:54. | :18:59. | |
off the list. There has also been a change in priorities, with an | :18:59. | :19:03. | |
emphasis on helping countries develop economic Klee, and helping | :19:04. | :19:09. | |
places affected by conflict. This has raised concerns even among the | :19:09. | :19:15. | |
Department's supporters. They are cutting back room staffed by one | :19:15. | :19:22. | |
third. They are going into more fragile states, places like Somalia | :19:22. | :19:26. | |
and the Democratic Republic of Congo, and therefore the dangers of | :19:26. | :19:31. | |
corruption become greater. And the temptation will be to put more | :19:32. | :19:35. | |
money into multinational organisations like the World Bank | :19:35. | :19:39. | |
for Unesco, where the British taxpayer will not be able to | :19:39. | :19:43. | |
monitor of where their money is going. At this weekend's | :19:43. | :19:45. | |
Commonwealth summit, the Prime Minister repeated his message that | :19:45. | :19:50. | |
aid is going to come with more strings, especially when it comes | :19:50. | :19:54. | |
to human rights. But he has still got to convince some sceptical Tory | :19:54. | :19:59. | |
backbenchers like Caroline Dinenage, who took these photos on a recent | :19:59. | :20:04. | |
fact-finding trip to India. Some of the politicians we spoke to had a | :20:04. | :20:07. | |
sense of almost arrogance about their position on the world stage | :20:07. | :20:11. | |
at the moment. It is almost as if they are the pretty girl at school | :20:11. | :20:15. | |
that everybody now suddenly wants to go out with, and almost an | :20:15. | :20:18. | |
ignorance of the fact that this incredible economic position that | :20:18. | :20:22. | |
they find themselves ent has been built on the back of a population | :20:22. | :20:27. | |
for whom the average wage is a quarter even of China. And then | :20:27. | :20:31. | |
there are those who are question whether any of our aid makes a | :20:31. | :20:37. | |
difference. We are still stuck in what I think of as the 1984 mindset, | :20:37. | :20:40. | |
where yes, there are starving people, and we have got to help and | :20:40. | :20:45. | |
teach them and inoculate them, and we have to do stuff to them. | :20:45. | :20:48. | |
Actually, it should be a partnership where they are doing it | :20:48. | :20:55. | |
and we are helping to enable that. The aid pledge is completely non- | :20:55. | :20:59. | |
negotiable for this government. Future arguments will be about how | :20:59. | :21:09. | |
:21:09. | :21:10. | ||
Adam Fleming reporting there. Barbara Stocking, why should the | :21:10. | :21:13. | |
government protect it international aid budget more than its budgets | :21:13. | :21:18. | |
for health or education? Defend the basic position. First of all, the | :21:18. | :21:21. | |
government made the commitment, and this was a pledge given several | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
years ago. I do think the British people think it is a good thing | :21:25. | :21:30. | |
which governments do what they say. They don't always. No, but that is | :21:30. | :21:35. | |
generally a good thing. The British people are generally committed to | :21:35. | :21:39. | |
aid and to make sure that something happens for the poorest people. We | :21:39. | :21:44. | |
see that in the way people come and give money to ask. But will that | :21:44. | :21:48. | |
continue as the economy continues to stagnate? People have given | :21:48. | :21:52. | |
money towards trying to make other people's lives better three times | :21:52. | :21:55. | |
when they have been at their poorest, so I don't think that will | :21:55. | :22:01. | |
be dramatically changed. It is in Britain's interest to do this. When | :22:01. | :22:06. | |
I was over at the UN, it is amazing to see the influence that Britain | :22:06. | :22:14. | |
has. Generally, Britain does this rather well. We have a lot of | :22:14. | :22:17. | |
influence, and we will have a lot of influence in the countries where | :22:18. | :22:22. | |
aid is currently going, because in future, they will be our markets. | :22:22. | :22:26. | |
There are so many different reasons why it is good to stick to the aid | :22:27. | :22:32. | |
commitment. And are you happy for aid to be used as a tool of policy | :22:32. | :22:37. | |
to combat terrorism, create future markets, reduce instability? | :22:37. | :22:44. | |
not directly. It must be directed at the poorest people, and the | :22:44. | :22:47. | |
countries that came out of the bilateral review are in fact the | :22:47. | :22:51. | |
countries which are the poorest and most unstable, and instability is | :22:51. | :22:54. | |
actually one of the things that poor people are mostly concerned | :22:54. | :23:00. | |
about in their countries. Being in an insecure country is just hell on | :23:00. | :23:05. | |
wheels. We are watching that very carefully, because we are worried | :23:06. | :23:10. | |
about whether it were just going to security. The UK NGOs are concerned | :23:10. | :23:14. | |
about where this money is going, and we will continue to watch. But | :23:14. | :23:18. | |
money that goes to countries like Yemen, Afghanistan and Pakistan, | :23:18. | :23:24. | |
where there are huge numbers of poor people. And India, with its | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
space programmes? India is interesting, because they have so | :23:28. | :23:34. | |
many poor people, but can we use the aid tactically to make sure | :23:34. | :23:39. | |
that it reaches the poor people? With Oxfam, we now have an Oxfam | :23:39. | :23:44. | |
India. That is fantastic because it is saying to Indian middle classes, | :23:44. | :23:48. | |
you have a responsibility for your own poor people. Very quickly, | :23:48. | :23:52. | |
should British policy be discriminating, or should it | :23:52. | :23:56. | |
withhold aid from countries that banner, sexuality? I think you have | :23:56. | :24:06. | |
:24:06. | :24:09. | ||
to be very careful with that. ban homosexuality? If you go to | :24:09. | :24:14. | |
local NGOs and onwards, you don't have to pull out just because you | :24:14. | :24:17. | |
don't approve of the government, you can take different steps. We | :24:17. | :24:21. | |
would be nervous about taking money away from the poorest countries | :24:21. | :24:25. | |
because their governments don't have policies we agree with. | :24:25. | :24:29. | |
you detect no change in government policy on this? We think they will | :24:29. | :24:34. | |
stay committed, and we will hold them to that. Thank you very much. | :24:34. | :24:38. | |
Have one organisation making quite a big difference to how Parliament | :24:38. | :24:41. | |
works is the backbench business committee. The green benches were | :24:41. | :24:46. | |
packed as huge numbers of Conservative MPs defied David | :24:46. | :24:49. | |
Cameron's pleas not to vote for a referendum on our relationship with | :24:49. | :24:52. | |
the European Union. That came about because the backbench business | :24:52. | :24:56. | |
committee made it happen. Today, they will be considering whether or | :24:56. | :24:59. | |
not to have a similar debate about the extradition of British citizens | :24:59. | :25:05. | |
to face trial in foreign countries. 1 K is often cited is that of Gary | :25:05. | :25:09. | |
McKinnon, who suffers from an autistic spectrum disorder. He | :25:09. | :25:16. | |
broke into an American computer network and claims he was just | :25:16. | :25:20. | |
looking for UFOs. His mother claims he would not survive the prison | :25:20. | :25:27. | |
system. The US wants him extradited. Dominic Raab is pushing for this | :25:27. | :25:32. | |
debate. Why do you think the extradition system is unfair? | :25:32. | :25:36. | |
had a big drive for enhanced Corporation on counter-terrorism | :25:36. | :25:46. | |
:25:46. | :25:48. | ||
after 911. I think the pendulum has swung too far the other way. Also | :25:48. | :25:55. | |
under the European arrest warrant, we have fast track extraditions | :25:55. | :25:57. | |
tainted with evidence of spurious grounds. We need to rebalance, put | :25:57. | :26:00. | |
in a bit more common sense, and basic judicial checks and | :26:00. | :26:05. | |
safeguards. I think it is important to have this debate, because it is | :26:05. | :26:10. | |
the job of Parliament to protect British standards of justice. | :26:10. | :26:13. | |
former Court of Appeal judge, Sir Scott Baker, came to a different | :26:13. | :26:22. | |
conclusion, and he said the system was adequate. Yes, and they read | :26:22. | :26:27. | |
all 486 pages of his report. There were a few flaws in it. They ducked | :26:27. | :26:31. | |
the big issues. Take the Michael Turner case, the case of fast-track | :26:31. | :26:35. | |
extradition, not for a prosecution but a police investigation. That is | :26:35. | :26:40. | |
the kind of case that shouldn't be happening. The Baker report denies | :26:40. | :26:44. | |
it happens, and Michael Turner's case is confined to a single | :26:44. | :26:48. | |
footnote in the report. The second major flaw in the report is that | :26:48. | :26:53. | |
they didn't interview any of the victims, and therefore it is that | :26:53. | :26:57. | |
of shorn of all human dimension. If you are subject of this extradition | :26:57. | :27:00. | |
and you are innocent, it turned your life upside down. What impact | :27:00. | :27:06. | |
you think a debate would have? have the Joint Committee on Human | :27:06. | :27:09. | |
Rights report as well. Lawyers can give their legal opinion. But I | :27:09. | :27:13. | |
think ultimately it is up to elected lawmakers to stand up our | :27:13. | :27:17. | |
justice system and our citizens and to have their voice and they say | :27:18. | :27:21. | |
before the government response than this. How much support you think | :27:21. | :27:26. | |
you will get? At the moment, we have cross-party support. So Ming | :27:26. | :27:35. | |
Campbell, how Francis, -- Sir Menzies Campbell. Particularly | :27:35. | :27:38. | |
constituency MPs for constituents who have suffered under the | :27:38. | :27:42. | |
European arrest warrant. Barbara, due think this new development of | :27:43. | :27:46. | |
the backbench business committee and more backbench power is a good | :27:46. | :27:51. | |
thing? Definitely. The more that people's voice can be heard, and | :27:51. | :27:56. | |
that is a better way of more people being engaged in the debate. | :27:56. | :28:04. | |
Lobbyists feeding into the debate? Yes, we do, and we raised full | :28:04. | :28:06. | |
parliamentary sittings. But that wider view of what the British | :28:06. | :28:10. | |
people are wanting and the debates they want to have held has got to | :28:10. | :28:14. | |
be good for democracy. And in the wake of expenses and the | :28:14. | :28:18. | |
downgrading of Parliament, you think it is a good thing? | :28:18. | :28:23. | |
Definitely. There is a bigger issue here as well. We tend to assume | :28:23. | :28:26. | |
that politicians are all the same, but there is a difference between | :28:26. | :28:31. | |
Parliament and legislature, and the executive. There is also my job as | :28:31. | :28:36. | |
a backbencher and a lawmaker to hold the government to account and | :28:36. | :28:39. | |
scrutinise policy. Thank you both very much for being with us here | :28:39. | :28:44. |