25/11/2011 Daily Politics


25/11/2011

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Afternoon folks, welcome to The Daily Politics on Friday. The

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Government unveils a one billion pound Youth Contract, but how many

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of the over one million unemployed young people will it help get back

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to work? I'll be speaking to the Employment Minister. 12-hour delays

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predicted for passengers at Heathrow, on top of school closures

:00:40.:00:47.

and cancelled hospital operations. How costly and disruptive will next

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Wednesday's co-ordinated strike action be? And how a squeeze on

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incomes, tax credit cuts and the rising cost of childcare are a

:00:55.:01:05.
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turn-off for some women voters. We're going back 20-30 years, where

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it is a presumption that women will And with me today are writer and

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broadcaster David Torrance and former political editor of the

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Observer Gaby Hinsliff. Welcome to you both. First this morning, more

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dire predictions about the impact of next week's co-ordinated strike

:01:24.:01:29.

action by members of public sector unions. Bosses at Heathrow are

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warning of 12-hour delays as border staff walk out - sounds like a

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pretty typical day at the airport to me. Most schools are predicted

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to be shut, with many parents having to take a day off work to

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look after their children. The strike is also likely to hit the

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NHS, where agency staff are being drafted in and some non-urgent

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operations are being postponed. Yesterday the Government warned the

:01:53.:01:56.

action would cost the country as much as �500 million - a figure

:01:56.:02:06.
:02:06.:02:10.

contested by the unions. So, David Torrance, it is a day not to fly

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into Britain if you're a normal passenger, and if you're a suicide

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bomber, probably a good day to fly in. Absolutely, what I find

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interesting in this is tracking public opinion. The Daily Mail

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today says, is this something of really big? -- is this the

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beginning of something really big? It suggests there is a war fund to

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cater for several strikes after this one. Will public opinion put

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up with one strike, let alone several? That is the question.

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Although there is one strike planned for next Wednesday, it does

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not change anything, the question is, will the unions do this again

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and again, and if so, which way will public opinion go? Lots of

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people will put up with one day's disruption, a lot of people will

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have some sympathy, actually, with have some sympathy, actually, with

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public sector workers, and will feel, fair enough. But if it goes

:03:05.:03:09.

on and on, will people blame the unions, or will they blame the

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Government for not negotiating it to a peaceful settlement? Our TV

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screens are full of riots in Athens and Rome, Portugal had a one-day

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strike this week, Tahrir Square is up in flames again... The general

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attitude might become a we do not want to go down that road. Yes,

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absolutely. And there is a sense that the trade unions are out of

:03:36.:03:42.

touch with reality. Public opinion polls demonstrate that most Brits

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accept that some sort of austerity measures are necessary. So if they

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continue to go on strike after this one, there will be that disconnect

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between what is reasonable and what Well, here's a radical idea. If

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some of next week's striking public sector workers don't want their

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jobs, there are plenty of unemployed young people out there

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who just might be interested. No, that's not government policy - yet.

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But the Deputy Prime Minister, Nick Clegg, has been setting out plans

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this morning to create 400,000 work and training placements. Last week

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youth unemployment reached the youth unemployment reached the

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toxic figure of 1 million. There were 1.02 million unemployed 16- to

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24-year-olds between July and September. That means almost one in

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five young people who are looking for jobs can't find one. Figures

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released yesterday also show the number of NEETs - young people not

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in education, employment, or training - has risen to over 1

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million. That does not include students. Acutely aware of the need

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to act, the Government has promised �1 billion across the UK for a

:04:51.:04:54.

Youth Contract to tackle youth unemployment. The hope is to

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provide at least 410,000 new work places for 18- to 24-year-olds This

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would see firms being given a subsidy of more than �2,000 for

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each unemployed young person they take on for six months. Firms would

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also get �1,500 for every apprentice they employ. And there

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will be cash, too, to subsidise 250,000 work placements lasting up

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to eight weeks. The Government hopes this will silence critics who

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accuse it of inaction - and more importantly that it will stem the

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tide. I'll be talking about the Government's plans in a moment with

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the Employment Minister, Chris Grayling, and Labour's Stephen

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Timms. But amongst all this doom and gloom, there is apparently some

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good news, because a survey out today suggests that there's been a

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significant increase in the number of young people escaping the

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competitive jobs market and starting their own businesses. I'm

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joined now from Liverpool by Nikki Hesford, who runs a business called

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Hesford, who runs a business called Miss Fit UK. Thanks for joining us,

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I understand you ended up running your own business because you found

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your own business because you found it hard getting a job with the

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company. Yes, in April 2008 I was looking for a job in financial

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services, going to interviews, and finding that after 35 interviews,

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they were all, thank you for applying, but somebody else has got

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the job. That was even jobs in �9,500 a year. I had a degree, but

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I was not able to get the job. There were 15, 20, 30 people going

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for a minimum wage receptionist job. There was just too much competition.

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Even though I was more than qualified. You said that tax

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credits were important to you go as a single mother, allowing you to go

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out to work - have you had any other help from the Government?

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There have been some small local grants for starting the business, a

:06:51.:06:54.

couple of 1,000 pounds here and there. They have been useful. But

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the tax credit has been brilliant, because it enables you as a single

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parent to have something coming in whilst your business is perhaps not

:07:01.:07:09.

making anything, to start with. The tax credits will also pay for the

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child care so that you can get your business off the ground. Now, or

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and employer, what is the quality of the labour market like, the

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quality of people? It is quite difficult. We also have a family

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restaurant, as well as Miss Fit UK. We have been trying to find waiters

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and waitresses and chefs for the past year, and we have been unable

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to find people suitable for the job. We're finding that a lot of people

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like initiative. There is a sense of entitlement, a lot of people, I

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am entitled to this or that. It is difficult to get a strong work

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ethic. Just little things like appearance, timekeeping, you would

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think that people would be nailing these things, but yet people are

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continuing in the Lake for jobs, or they do not turn up, or they do not

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come in on Mondays, people do not seem to have the heart and soul to

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do a job. Good luck with your business. And joining us now are

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the Employment Minister, Chris Grayling, and his Labour Shadow,

:08:16.:08:25.
:08:26.:08:27.

Stephen Timms. Chris Grayling, this �1 billion scheme would not have

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happened without the Lib Dems, would it? That's not true, this is

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a coalition programme. We have been looking at it for some months, we

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put the plan together in the department. It is an extension of

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the schemes which were already in place, doubling the size of the

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existing work-experience scheme... Wasn't it like getting a vegetarian

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to going to a kebab shop? That's simply not the case. So, the Lib

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Dems are wrong to claim the credit for it? Mr Clegg has been out and

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about this morning... That's natural, when you have an important

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announcement, either the Prime Minister or the Deputy Prime

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Minister will go out and announce it. We are a team. So, you do the

:09:11.:09:16.

work and he takes the credit. Inevitably, one all the other will

:09:16.:09:20.

want to play a major part in a big announcement. Oh, yes, we have seen

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that. Where is the money coming from? You will have to wait until

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the Spending Review or until the Autumn Statement next week. I

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cannot pre-empt what will be announced. But is it additional

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money? I am not going to respond, I'm afraid. The Autumn Statement

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will set it all out. Will the money be coming from tax credits?

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still not going to answer that one, I'm afraid. I hope you will be

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impressed when the statement comes out by the range of measures to

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deal with unemployment. You will have to decide if you're happy or

:10:08.:10:14.

sad on Tuesday. Can we just get it clear, 4,000 new jobs are not being

:10:14.:10:21.

created by this �1 billion. Within that figure, it includes 250,000

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work-experience placements for up to, and I say again, up to eight

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weeks, that's not a new job. work experience scheme has proved

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enormously successful, since we launched it in the spring. More

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than half the young people going through that scheme have been

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getting off benefits and into work. It is by far the most cost-

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effective scheme that we have seen in the country in recent years. It

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really works, and if you have something that works, you should

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build on it. Stephen Timms, you must be happy, this job creation

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scheme is not unlike yours, and it will probably just as useless as

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yours. It is very welcome, the fact that the Government has recognised

:10:58.:11:01.

finally that something needs to be done. It is a tragedy that we had

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to get such awful youth unemployment figures before the

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Government acted. The Future Jobs Fund did not work, either. Well, it

:11:10.:11:14.

did, of course. This announcement underlines what a serious mistake

:11:14.:11:17.

it was for the Government to scrap the Future Jobs Fund just after the

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election. There's lots of detail we do not yet know. It seems that a

:11:24.:11:30.

lot of it is about eight-week work experience placements. I would be

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interested to know, is the money which is supporting employers going

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to go direct to the employers, or is it going to go to the work

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programme? I think it is likely to go straight to the employers. We

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will sit down with the CBI and others to work out whether we make

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payments through the national insurance system or through

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different means. But this is a support mechanism for employers

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when they take someone on. It is a cash incentive. One of the point I

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should make, you would believe, listening to the Labour Party, that

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somehow unemployment have rocketed in the last few monks amongst the

:12:04.:12:09.

young. At the time of the general election, there were 930,000 young

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people out of work, that figure has increased to just over one million,

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but the idea that this is somehow a creation of the coalition is for

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the birds. Long term youth unemployment is up 86% since

:12:23.:12:30.

January. That is not the case. The previous government buried young

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unemployed people on something called training allowance and other

:12:32.:12:36.

schemes, so the figures did not show the true picture. If you take

:12:36.:12:39.

a like-for-like comparison, there has been very... Change in the

:12:39.:12:44.

number of people, young people, unemployed for six months. The fact

:12:44.:12:49.

is, yours is a variation of the other scheme. They're both much of

:12:49.:12:57.

a muchness. Your version was the expensive one, but within a month

:12:57.:13:03.

of it coming to an end, when your time of subsidised work came to an

:13:03.:13:08.

end, 50% of young people were back on the dole, it didn't work. 50% of

:13:08.:13:12.

them, however, were in work, including young people who had been

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out of work for a long time. does not show how many were

:13:16.:13:20.

unemployed again after six months, or after one month. The Future Jobs

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Fund broke the mould. If you speak to young people, a lot of people

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say it changed their lives for the better. It is very welcome that

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after this very long time, the Government is trying to make up for

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some of the damage it don't. -- it did. Youth unemployment rose

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consistently under Labour from 2004 onwards. 2004 was not the recession.

:13:46.:13:50.

Unemployment among young people rose every year from 2004. The

:13:50.:13:55.

recession did not start until 2008. You were asking about the Future

:13:55.:13:59.

Jobs Fund. That was introduced in the recession, and it was

:13:59.:14:01.

successful in bringing youth unemployment down. Since it was

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stopped, it has rocketed again, but it is welcome that the Government

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is finally addressing this. If it is true, as the Government said

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this morning, that the Deputy Prime Minister made a proposal on these

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lines to the Cabinet in January, why has it taken almost a year?

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did you scrap one interventionist scheme which does not work, wait a

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long while, to introduce another one that probably will not work?

:14:27.:14:32.

The Future Jobs Fund paid �6,500 to give a young person a six-month

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work experience placement, with nothing to follow. The crucial

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difference was the minimum wage. What we are doing is supporting,

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through the package we have announced today, and through

:14:45.:14:49.

increased apprenticeships, the start of long-term careers. These

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are real jobs in the private sector that will lead somewhere, not a

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six-month temporary work placement, to massage the unemployment figures.

:14:56.:15:01.

You do not know that. One thing we do know is that it does not pay in

:15:01.:15:06.

this country now to be out of work and to be 25 or 26. Actually, the

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work programme, and I am encouraged by the early stages of that, is

:15:10.:15:14.

delivering personalised support to young people of all ages. Your

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subsidy stops at 24, like all of these schemes, having unintended

:15:19.:15:26.

consequences. If I'm an employer faced with two youngsters, 24 and

:15:26.:15:30.

25, I will take the 24-year-old, because I get the subsidy. It is

:15:30.:15:40.
:15:40.:15:44.

Bye-bye 25-year-old, is that not We are unashamedly helping the

:15:44.:15:48.

youth, because they are in a difficult position, they need

:15:48.:15:55.

experience, but how can they get it? Thatcher had the YTS. The it is

:15:55.:16:01.

the same idea, a subsidy for a job. I am old enough to remember when

:16:01.:16:07.

the coalition didn't believe in subsidised jobs. They felt that

:16:07.:16:12.

they didn't need the state to come in all heavy-handed. So what we are

:16:12.:16:15.

going to see next week is a return to this idea that the Government

:16:15.:16:25.
:16:25.:16:26.

was quite scornful of. I remember Gordon Brown doing some of these

:16:26.:16:31.

measures at his height. We are Isaac -- we are either reaching a

:16:31.:16:36.

point were the previous government was right, or that they were wrong

:16:36.:16:41.

and this is going to be wrong again. Having said that, I think there is

:16:41.:16:44.

a me to be said young people doing something rather than being

:16:44.:16:50.

unemployed. But it is a gamble on a quick recovery. What is your take?

:16:50.:16:55.

I am rather cynical about all of these schemes. It did bring to mind

:16:55.:17:00.

the YTS of the 1980s. Governments have to be seen to be doing

:17:00.:17:04.

something, and they accept the political reality of that. But in

:17:04.:17:09.

truth, what reduce his youth unemployment is a healthy, vibrant

:17:09.:17:16.

economy on the whole, and not targeted assistance. We see from

:17:16.:17:19.

continental schemes that once the period of assistance has come to an

:17:19.:17:25.

end, they go back on the dole. Let's not be parochial here. Europe

:17:25.:17:33.

is awash with the schemes. You go to Spain, Germany, Italy, France,

:17:33.:17:35.

governments are awash with the schemes, and unemployment among

:17:35.:17:39.

young people there is even higher than it is here. They haven't

:17:39.:17:44.

worked. But we are not creating an artificial scheme for short-term

:17:44.:17:52.

work. What we are doing is in some devising employers. -- giving

:17:52.:17:58.

employers incentives. This is about creating long-term jobs, not about

:17:58.:18:01.

creating temporary job placements that massage the unemployment

:18:01.:18:06.

figures. How is it not temporary of the subsidy runs out after six

:18:06.:18:10.

months? We are giving the employer the incentive to take a chance on

:18:10.:18:13.

someone without experience with a financial boost, and that is what

:18:14.:18:18.

this is about. It is not simply about a short-term job creation

:18:18.:18:22.

scheme. If employers get a subsidy to employ somebody, they will take

:18:23.:18:30.

it. Yes, and we want them to! doesn't mean long-term employment.

:18:30.:18:33.

Time will tell. We have been talking a lot about

:18:33.:18:36.

potential cuts to tax credits, but the Minister gave nothing away

:18:36.:18:43.

there. You'll have to tune in to the Autumn Statement live here on a

:18:43.:18:50.

Daily Politics special on Tuesday. The squeeze on household incomes is

:18:50.:18:53.

one of the factors said to be losing the Government the support

:18:53.:18:57.

of women voters. They're getting tax credits cut, they go to the

:18:57.:19:05.

shops and see how high food prices are. They are not happy.

:19:05.:19:10.

Karen Miller lives with her husband Darren and therefore kids. They

:19:10.:19:16.

both work full-time, and spent almost �5,000 a year on child care.

:19:16.:19:20.

But with their tax credits cut from �90 to �20 a week, Karen says it

:19:20.:19:25.

may not be worth working. I always believed, growing up and working my

:19:25.:19:31.

way up through the work chain, that I would be better off, that I would

:19:31.:19:37.

be able to afford those luxuries. And not to be able to afford those

:19:37.:19:41.

luxuries is really quite shocking. We do have to consider whether it

:19:41.:19:46.

might be worth one of us not working. The Government's not about

:19:46.:19:50.

to reverse cuts the tax credit any time soon. But one MP thinks that

:19:50.:19:57.

you could cut a red tape and get a cheaper alternative. Eggs -- for

:19:57.:20:07.
:20:07.:20:07.

example, in a small village or town where it is hard to get to work, a

:20:07.:20:11.

mum who is staying at home and looking after her own children

:20:11.:20:17.

might be able to look after her friends' children as well without

:20:17.:20:24.

having to go through all the Ofsted red tape. It is a popular idea in a

:20:24.:20:31.

country with one of the world's most expensive childcare systems.

:20:31.:20:36.

But the ride Down side to cheap childcare. It is about having well-

:20:36.:20:43.

trained qualified staff who understand child development, so

:20:43.:20:47.

that the children and not sitting there doing nothing but getting

:20:47.:20:52.

some input to help them learn. would rather pay for my daughter to

:20:52.:20:57.

go to a childminder. She gets such a lot in terms of early education.

:20:57.:21:01.

But I know that when she goes to school, she will be able to learn

:21:01.:21:05.

at a faster rate than children who haven't had that social skill input.

:21:05.:21:09.

And Karen has a message for politicians hoping they can win

:21:09.:21:15.

over the women voters. I want to work - police tell me. I really do

:21:15.:21:19.

think that we're going back 20 or 30 years to where it is a

:21:19.:21:25.

presumption that women will stay in the household, and all that work on

:21:25.:21:30.

equality has gone out of the window. Kate Conway reporting. Chris

:21:30.:21:34.

Grayling is still with us. At a time when living standards are

:21:34.:21:38.

being seriously squeezed because prices, particularly of essentials,

:21:38.:21:46.

are rising so much more than wages, which are static, more and more

:21:46.:21:50.

families, both parents are having to go out to work, which makes

:21:50.:21:54.

child care all the more important. But child care is getting tough, as

:21:54.:21:58.

we have seen in the film. It is important, and you have to put in

:21:58.:22:04.

context the changes we have made to tax credits. We inherited a system

:22:04.:22:07.

row you're paying tax credits to people who were earning �50,000 the

:22:07.:22:12.

year, and in tough times, you have to draw a line as to how far up the

:22:12.:22:17.

income scale you can provide support. But by looking at the

:22:17.:22:19.

introduction of the Universal Credit, what we're doing for the

:22:19.:22:22.

first time is allow women are going back to work working just a few

:22:22.:22:27.

hours a week to claim credits for child care in a way that wasn't

:22:27.:22:31.

possible previously. So we have unashamedly said we cannot do

:22:31.:22:33.

everything for everyone, but we have strengthened support for

:22:33.:22:38.

people at the bottom end of the scale. I take the difficulties,

:22:38.:22:45.

because you have got no money because you have spent billions on

:22:45.:22:49.

a job scheme, but what would you say to people who want to work,

:22:49.:22:54.

they have to work because they are the squeezed middle, but they can't

:22:54.:22:58.

get the child care. What would you say to them? We are providing

:22:58.:23:02.

through the tax credit system support for child care. That hasn't

:23:02.:23:06.

changed. But equally, we have got to recognise that in difficult

:23:06.:23:12.

times financially, there are limits to how much we can rely on that. It

:23:12.:23:16.

was a hard decision to say that we cannot use tax credits to support

:23:16.:23:21.

people earning more than �50,000 per year. A lot of the people you

:23:21.:23:24.

took that away from think of themselves as the squeezed middle

:23:24.:23:28.

two. Is this one of the reasons why the Conservatives have a problem

:23:28.:23:34.

with women? I think it absolutely is. The change happened since April,

:23:34.:23:37.

meaning that you can now claim back less of your child care then you

:23:37.:23:40.

could, for a lot of mothers who were only just thinking it was

:23:40.:23:44.

worth working and may be feeling a bit guilty and torn about working,

:23:44.:23:49.

you reach a point where you are paying to work. You do start

:23:49.:23:54.

resenting the Government at that point. They are feeling forced to

:23:55.:23:58.

go back and look after the kids, even if that is not what they want

:23:58.:24:01.

to do, and it feels like the Government wants women to be in the

:24:01.:24:05.

home, and I don't think that is what the Government intended. The

:24:05.:24:09.

result is either women working, or black market child care, cash-in-

:24:09.:24:14.

hand to a neighbour because it is cheaper. Do you think they are

:24:14.:24:20.

encouraged to do that? Child care has gone up above-inflation this

:24:20.:24:28.

year, and wages have not risen. What do you think? I have now taken

:24:28.:24:34.

child care, I am a single man of 34 x man but I think it is intriguing

:24:34.:24:44.
:24:44.:24:46.

that David Cameron seems to be now week with women voters. You are

:24:46.:24:53.

Alex Salmond's biographer, aren't you? I am, and he has appeared on

:24:53.:25:00.

Mumsnet and various interviews. It was a PR exercise, essentially. I

:25:00.:25:02.

wonder if David Cameron might be considering an appearance on

:25:02.:25:07.

Mumsnet and women's hour. I think we can definitely say that that

:25:07.:25:14.

might happen! Is it just economically impossible to allow a

:25:14.:25:19.

child care to be tax deductible? There are a number of things. If

:25:19.:25:24.

you look at the various ideas and pressures and suggestions, that is

:25:24.:25:29.

one of the ideas, and of course there are -- people argue for that.

:25:30.:25:33.

But we are dealing with a very difficult financial position. There

:25:33.:25:38.

are many things that people might argue we should do, but our real

:25:38.:25:41.

task right now is to maintain stability in the economy. If we

:25:41.:25:45.

were to let rip and allow borrowing to rise again in the way the Labour

:25:45.:25:48.

Party seems to want us to do, the consequence would be that we would

:25:48.:25:51.

end up with the kind of financial pressures that we are seeing in

:25:51.:25:57.

other European countries. We do not want to go in that direction.

:25:57.:26:02.

have a women problem, don't you? think it is up to us to win the

:26:02.:26:06.

support of voters, both male and female, over the next three-and-a-

:26:06.:26:12.

half-year us to demonstrate that we are listening. We hear that mantra

:26:12.:26:16.

every day. Thank you very much, Mr grayling. Time now to see what else

:26:16.:26:23.

has been going on in the last seven days. It is the week in 60 seconds.

:26:23.:26:28.

David Cameron and Nick Clegg got to boost the House market, so as a

:26:28.:26:32.

couple, they went house-hunting. is vitally important to build more

:26:32.:26:38.

houses. In Egypt, protesters returned to Tahir Square, demanding

:26:38.:26:43.

that the military stand down immediately. Westminster hard nut

:26:43.:26:47.

Ed Balls reveals he has a softer side when he told an interviewer

:26:47.:26:51.

that he cries at the Sound of Music and the Antiques Roadshow. Figures

:26:51.:26:56.

showed that net migration into 1010 was at a record high, a quarter of

:26:56.:27:00.

a million more people came to the UK then left.

:27:00.:27:03.

The Leveson Inquiry has been hearing evidence, some of it

:27:03.:27:06.

dignified, moving and shocking, plus a string of celebrity

:27:06.:27:11.

witnesses who pitched in with a few lighter moments. You told me

:27:11.:27:16.

backstage you are going to bowl me straight balls. If these are

:27:16.:27:21.

straight balls, I would hate to see your googlies. And unstoppable

:27:21.:27:26.

problems already facing the eurozone, the last beret maker in

:27:26.:27:30.

France said it could close within days.

:27:30.:27:34.

When the Germans cannot sell their debt, and the French can't make

:27:34.:27:44.

their berets. Then I think we are all in trouble! That is it, Jo will

:27:44.:27:49.

be here on Monday, and joined Jon Sopel on Sunday For the Politics

:27:49.:27:53.

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