08/12/2011 Daily Politics


08/12/2011

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Afternoon, folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics. The Prime Minister

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is off to Brussels. His backbenchers want him to fight

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tooth and claw to defend British interests and bring something back.

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But is there anything he can do? Any piece of paper he can wave on

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his return that will satisfy their blood lust for a referendum on

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leaving Europe? How difficult is it to get into Britain without a

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passport? Well, apparently all you have to do is get as far as

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Brussels, buy a ticket to Lille, and simply don't get off the train!

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We'll find out why this so-called loophole is so difficult to close.

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And, are the British tabloids a force for good? We'll ask one of

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And here he is. With us for the duration, red-top legend that is

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Kelvin Mackenzie. So, if you have any thoughts or comments on

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anything we are discussing, then But first, that story over just how

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easy it is to get into Britain without the bother of having to

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carry a passport. Apparently, you don't need one to get from Brussels

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to Lille on the Eurostar. And once you are on the train, there is,

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unbelievably, nothing to stop you just sitting there until you get to

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London. In the words of Richard Littlejohn, is this one you just

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:02:06.:02:11.

I had no idea bus-stop when you get into the detail of its creditors

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more shocking. The border guards knew it was going on. They

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recognise two Iranians who are going to try to push their way

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through into the UK. They stop them and point them out to the Belgian

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police. They say, you cannot do anything and we could actually

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arrest you for trying to stop these two Iranians coming to your land.

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This is one of the bad MRS of Europe as it stands. When there was

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a 17 and a 10, these kinds of issues would grow and grow. This is

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another example of a two-track Europe. We're outside the Shelton

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agreement. What can the Government actually do? They are heading our

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way. At St Pancras, they could have a massive checking system. I would

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be in favour of it. This second thing is, we could actually not

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have a benefit system which encourages the rest of the world to

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think they can come here. Why don't they want to stay in Belgium and

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France? We should do two things at the centre but we should be tough

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about it. One thing I despair about any government, nobody actually

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embraces what ordinary people's common sense would tell them. We

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should do something about this kind of stuff. It is beyond me. It is a

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vote-winner. Why don't they say, we are going to go...? We are going to

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send armed guards to Lille and shoot them. Before you do say

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something we should not on the programme... Like invade Belgium!

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Don't you start. Move on briefly to the other story that has emerged

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and this is a move to the Government in terms of proposals

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being offered to NHS workers. Up until now, they said anyone earning

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under 15,000 will not have to pay contributions. Now it is 26 and a

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half 1000 pounds. Will it be enough? -- �26,500. The Government

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has moved. Obviously they want a deal. I am astonished that the

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Government moved at all. They want a deal. Fantastic! The kind of

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offer that, in private industry, you would not have come within 1000

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miles off. If the finance director says, we are stopping the final

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salary, that is your lot, you get on with it. Why do state workers

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get preferment? Why are 23 million of us who are outside the system

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having to fund it? I think we know where he stands on the deal. He is

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sitting on the fence were stuck the unions do not agree with you.

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the fence. The unions do not agree with Kelvin MacKenzie. The Bank of

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England has announced that interest rates are staying at 0.5%. No

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surprise. Most City analysts expect interest rates to stay at that rate

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for all of 2012. QED is at 275 billion as well. -- quantitative

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easing. It is the economy and the main stories to do with that is the

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big summit in Brussels. Yesterday, at PMQs, Tory backbenchers lined up

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to urge the Prime Minister to show bulldog spirit in speaking up for

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British interests in the face of French and German proposals to

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rewrite the way the eurozone operates. Well, severe gales are

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buffeting the country today and it is likely to be pretty stormy over

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the Channel in Brussels for, wait for it, another make or break

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summit to save the euro. Key to the discussion is how to bring enough

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budgetary discipline into the eurozone to stop anything like the

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current crisis happening again. Germany and France argue this needs

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to be enforced by a change in the existing EU treaties and they want

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to see the European Commission have new powers to impose penalties on

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eurozone countries that have large budget deficits as well as having

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common corporation and financial Some see this as the creation of

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what is effectively a new country, which would have profound

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implications for our relationship to the rest of Europe. David

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Cameron is desperate to avoid any major treaty change that could lead

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to demands for a referendum here in the UK. Something that both London

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Mayor Boris Johnson and the Northern Ireland Secretary Owen

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Paterson have said could be necessary. However, Downing Street

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have made it clear that, whilst any new treaty may need to go through

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Parliament, it is unlikely there would be any need for a referendum.

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The Prime Minister is also under huge pressure from within his party

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to claw back powers from Europe in return for any concessions. However,

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France and Germany appear unwilling to help out him out, which could

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mean the 17 countries of the eurozone going it alone and

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adopting their own treaty. And our political correspondent, Iain

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Watson, is in Brussels for us now. In terms of the Government, what is

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worse for David Cameron? I think he is stuck. He will be here in a few

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hours' time. I have got here rather ahead of him. It even if he lives

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here and a deal is done to stabilise the euro, I have spoken

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to a whole range of Euro-sceptic backbenchers. They said, even if he

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comes back and declares victory, we will see it as the FT. It is not

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enough to safeguard British interests over the City of London.

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-- defeat. They want to see him coming back here and using this

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process to get powers back from Brussels. That seems unlikely. Some

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people want to see a referendum. Up the Merkozy proposals are quite

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major. Even a couple of people in the Cabinet will argue it is so

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major it would trigger a referendum in the UK. That is not what David

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Cameron wants to see and it is not what Lib Dem ministers want to see.

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It would put the whole coalition on the rocks. It is a very limited,

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very minor treaty change. The second battle he has to face is

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what he the -- what it will take for the French and Germans to stand

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up for British interests? They are saying the very minimum demands

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about protecting the City of London is not something they were

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necessarily agree with. They will stay here as long as it takes to

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get the kind of agreement they want and Britain is poor full tour of

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Anyway it is the 7th European summit Fisher. Six have come up so

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far with completely comprehensive plans to sort out the European

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crisis so no doubt the 7th will as well. With us now is the

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Conservative MP, Bernard Jenkin, who has written in today's Guardian

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that this summit represents the end game for the European Union as we

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know it. We also have the former Lib Dem leader, Ming Campbell, and

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the Conservative MP, Nick Boles. What do you want Mr Cameron to come

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back with from Brussels? He should make it clear that he has done his

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best to help our European partners through this crisis. The changes

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they are now proposing, they may not have a direct legal impact on

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the United Kingdom that they will have a big impact on our relations

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with the European Union. He will need to consult with Parliament and

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with the British people on this. Ultimately there will need to be a

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referendum. He should stop fiscal union going ahead? No. These treaty

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changes will take months. He should come back with an agreement in

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principle that we need a new relationship with the European

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Union. It should be based on the principle that the laws of this

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land to be made by people who are elected and are directly affected

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by them. If European institutions in this new economic state will be

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working for the 17, they will not be working for us. I still do not

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know what you want to bring back. want to bring back an agreement

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that Parliament will decide what applies to the European Union in

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this country. You want us to leave the European Union? It is up to

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Parliament and the Government of the day to negotiate with the

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European Union as to what applies - what rules apply and what do not.

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We want to remain in the customs union. I would suggest that Bernard

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Jenkin, Santa is not going to bring him what he wants this Christmas.

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His endgame can only result in being out. If that is what they all

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say. I have just been in America for three days. Everywhere I went

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much members of Congress, reporters, commentators, are you going to

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solve the eurozone crisis? It is an important component in the economic

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recovery of the United States. It is also important about the

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possibility of Barack Obama being elected. If the agreement founders

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because of an argument about the time directive on the fishing

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policy, then our allies... You want powers repatriated. These are the

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kinds of powers that people talk about. If it fails because of that,

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our friends in the United States were not understand what we have

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done. What do you want the Prime Minister to bring back? As a rule,

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Bernard has been more right on this issue than Ming Campbell for the

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last 20 years. My defence is one of tactics and cunning. Today is the

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moment of maximum economic danger for Britain. Retail sales are

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falling, Brazil has stalled, China has stalled. The entire global

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economy is sitting on the edge of an abyss. We need to protect our

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economy and jobs but getting this crisis fixed. We need to come to

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that after we have saved our economy. What do you want him to

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bring back? What I want David Cameron to do is to protect our

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economy, Protect our jobs. That is the moment - protecting the City of

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London. He needs to get a solution to the crisis so the entire

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European economy does not fall apart. It is much more serious than

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:14:18.:14:19.

in 2008. The priority is to save the eurozone. Otherwise we will or

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head into a recession and a depression and then come back to

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what you want to raise at a more appropriate time. The idea it will

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be easier to discuss this after they had done and dusted everything

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is absolutely ludicrous. There is no need for this to hold up the

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European Union. We're not talking about a whole lot of detailed,

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complex things like fishing law. It has to be a general decision that

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our membership will be conducted on a different principle. Why wouldn't

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everyone else wants that? -- want. Can I just finished my point? If

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they were to agreed that in principle, there is no need to hold

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:15:12.:15:15.

up anything. All the data could There are two important principles,

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proportionality and subsidiarity. That means Brussels does not do

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what cannot be done better by individual states. These are

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technically part of the jurisprudence of the European Union.

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We want to have an emphasis on these things. They are entirely

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consistent with localism. They would stop some of the gold plating,

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which goes on when European Union proposals reach the United Kingdom,

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and they would bring about the reform of the European Union, which

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everyone accepts is necessary, but cannot be done by the kind of

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apocalyptic suggestions made by Bernard. If Bernard Jenkin got his

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way, he may be right, maybe not, but we will no longer be a member

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of the European Union if he gets his way. That would be true if we

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go about it in the way that Bernard is suggesting. But it is not

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necessarily true. But we are going to have to work out an entirely new

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kind of relationship, and that is a big exercise. It offers huge

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opportunities for Britain, but it is going to take two or three years.

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It is not the work of a weekend when the global economy is on a

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precipice. But the Lib Dems have nothing to say about what our

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relationship would be with Europe if there was a new, central, pal

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full eurozone, of which we would not be part. It does change the

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whole dynamic... It certainly makes for an inner core and an outer core.

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But it certainly does not stand in the way of relationship up to but

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not including membership of the single currency. We will be

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outvoted on every issue. remember, there are 10 countries in

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the EU who are not members. last time I looked, 17 is higher

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than 10, so we get outvoted. lots of majority decisions are

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required to be made. There are plenty of allies to be found

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outside the 17, if we really want to change the philosophy and the

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practicalities. All the briefing I got this morning was that it was

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26-1, even the Polish, the Hungarians, the Danish, have lined

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up. Why is that? The reason why is because the British Prime Minister,

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yesterday at PMQs, and today again, has been substantially undermined

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by his own party. Rubbish. We're back to John Major and the bustards.

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Thank you very much. There is going to be a lot of bustards. The people

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I know among Tory MPs say that when the voting happens, it will be well

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into the 120s, 140s. So when the voting goes through Parliament on

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whatever this is, I could see... You're in expert on many things,

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Kelvin, including an expert on the modern Tory party, most of whom you

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have never met! I have got 20 quid, that it will be 120 MPs, let's see

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who knows the most. You have met each other now. This programme

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wants to bring people together. Thank you, gentleman. I was going

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to say, this is what it will be like in Brussels. At least they all

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speak different languages, so it gets lost in translation. With a

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series of victims, a stellar cast of celebrities, and eyebrow raising

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statements, the Leveson inquiry has been quite the eye-opener. The

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target has been the tabloid press, but they are now starting to ask if

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the inquiry is really fair. Giles has been trying to find the good

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side of the past. If you work for a newspaper, the last weeks of the

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Leveson inquiry have been uncomfortable. At the moment I

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think we have a press which has just become frankly putrid.

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High King of Milly Dowler's telephone was not a bad thing for a

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well-meaning journalist, who was only trying to help find the girl.

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What you do is, you say, a security source said, and when a load of

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quotes from a source, which charges made up of the top of my head.

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Rebekah Brooks and Andy Coulson, they're the scum of journalism for

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trying to drop me in it. newspapers have become part of the

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political process, yet without any of the accountability which other

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parts of the political process are subject to. In the fortnight or so

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since Lord Leveson started hearing evidence, we have heard how the

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tabloid press have mistreated families like Milly Dowler's and

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the McCann's. The press have admitted to certain things they

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have done which the public would be shocked about. But now, the tabloid

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press are starting to say it is too much one-way traffic. People from

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the industry now seem to be the grubby journalists, the people who

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admit having hacked phones or making up stories, and they have

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been given a huge platform to explain what they did. And the

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decent, honest journalists, like the 280 who lost their jobs at the

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News of the World, are not being given any say. In the committee I

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sit on, which is looking into privacy and super-injunctions, we

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have heard from tabloid proprietors and tabloid journalists, and they

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have given as good as they have taken. I don't think the voice of

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the boding tabloid journalist is going unheard on this. If anybody

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thinks that's the case, and if Leveson thinks it is the case, it

:20:50.:20:54.

is open to him to call them as witnesses. So, what would they say

:20:54.:20:59.

if they were in the room? Their defence has seem to be that the

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tabloids always have been and still Lara force for good. Just before we

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close, we secured a Military Covenant, enshrined in law, which

:21:08.:21:12.

the Prime Minister had refused to do. The Sun has this week launched

:21:12.:21:17.

a campaign to try to stop the cuts in armed forces' pay. We have had

:21:17.:21:21.

campaigns such as Sara's law, relating to predatory paedophiles.

:21:21.:21:25.

Parents have the right to know if they are living in their

:21:25.:21:29.

communities. And we have campaigns such as help for heroes, in the Sun,

:21:29.:21:33.

which has raised masses of money for Armed Forces charities, and has

:21:33.:21:37.

changed the way this country things about our soldiers, who put their

:21:37.:21:40.

lives on the line. In terms of hearing evidence, Leveson has a

:21:40.:21:46.

long way to run. In terms of being fair, according to some of the

:21:46.:21:51.

newspapers, Leveson has a long way to go. I'm joined now by the Labour

:21:51.:21:55.

MP Chris Bryant, who has had less than welcome attention from the

:21:55.:22:02.

tabloids and the past. We had hoped to be joined by the chief executive

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It has always been in the gutter. And it is quite a good place to be,

:22:16.:22:26.
:22:26.:22:26.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 54 seconds

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actually. The idea is that you are Tony you have earned up to the fact

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that you hardly ever check whether any stories were true. You have

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spent a great deal of time to piling the idea of any hacking.

:23:27.:23:30.

Indeed, I remember going on many Indeed, I remember going on many

:23:30.:23:33.

programmes with you, where you said, categorically, that you could not

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believe that it could have happened, that nobody senior at the

:23:36.:23:40.

organisation would know about it, and even if it did, you said it was

:23:40.:23:43.

a socialist conspiracy. And then you found out that your phone was

:23:43.:23:49.

hacked, and suddenly you were upset. I was totally upset. Somebody paid

:23:49.:23:54.

you to write an article, so you got a bit more upset. I do not get paid

:23:54.:23:58.

to write articles in the Spectator. If I had to do that, I would be in

:23:58.:24:05.

the gutter. But what about the broader point? Are do not know what

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it is exactly. The broader point is that there was a problem within one

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newspaper, and, did they pay a price for all of that? That

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newspaper does not exist today. Actually, I am amazed that that

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paper does not exist. I was shocked when it was shut down. When did you

:24:23.:24:28.

decide that Rupert Murdoch's tabloids were beneath contempt? Was

:24:28.:24:32.

it when the Sun endorsed Labour in three subsequent elections, or when

:24:32.:24:37.

it endorsed Cameron in 2009? first started raising questions

:24:37.:24:41.

about the payment of police officers by the News Of The World

:24:41.:24:46.

and by the Sun on 11th March 2003. I can remember because it was my

:24:46.:24:49.

dad's birthday. You never spoke about the tabloids like this when

:24:49.:24:55.

they were backing Labour. I did, I'm afraid. In these words? I did

:24:55.:25:00.

not talk about the hacking, -- I did not know about the hacking, but

:25:00.:25:05.

I raised the issue of Murdoch's domination, having so many of the

:25:05.:25:09.

newspapers, as well as the broadcasters. Can they be a force

:25:09.:25:14.

for good? Yes, of course they can, and sometimes they have been. When?

:25:14.:25:17.

There have been lots of campaigns which have been run by tabloid

:25:17.:25:21.

journalists. We should not forget that a lot of this is coming out

:25:21.:25:25.

now because of the investigative journalism done by a guy at The

:25:25.:25:30.

Guardian. Not a tabloid. No, but I do not care whether a newspaper is

:25:30.:25:34.

a tabloid, I am not a snob. Entertaining newspapers are great.

:25:34.:25:39.

So, what's the problem? Because all I want journalism to do is to

:25:40.:25:43.

return to its old fashioned thing of bringing the truth to light, but

:25:43.:25:46.

doing it within the law, and not running headlines about

:25:46.:25:49.

Hillsborough which were a complete and utter lies. This has got

:25:49.:25:55.

nothing to do with Hillsborough. is, it is about lying. How do you

:25:55.:26:00.

know? How do you know, you printed a newspaper. That story came from

:26:00.:26:06.

Liverpool news agency and Liverpool journalists. Every single newspaper

:26:06.:26:12.

carried that story, as you well know. Carry on. You ran a newspaper

:26:12.:26:17.

which said that people had done these things. Both of you, be quiet,

:26:17.:26:20.

you have done the Hillsborough., the viewers will make up their own

:26:20.:26:25.

minds. I have a broader question - do you have any regrets or remorse

:26:25.:26:30.

about some of the things you did as a tabloid editor? Probably, yes, I

:26:30.:26:35.

do. Would that include Hillsborough? If I could revisit

:26:35.:26:39.

Hillsborough, I would do it in a different way, I would do with the

:26:39.:26:46.

way the other newspapers did it, I wish I had done that, yes. What do

:26:46.:26:49.

you think will come out of this, what will be the end game, after

:26:49.:26:54.

Leveson and so on? It must not muzzle the press. I know people

:26:54.:26:58.

will say politicians want the press to be muzzled, I do not want that.

:26:58.:27:01.

I want the press to be vibrant and sometimes use colourful language

:27:01.:27:05.

and the rest of it, and be interested in the wrong doings of

:27:06.:27:09.

politicians, I have no problem with that. But I think everybody needs a

:27:09.:27:14.

little bit of privacy, just to be able to survive, we all need our

:27:14.:27:19.

own personal space. And one thing which some tabloids have got wrong

:27:19.:27:25.

is that things have changed since 50 years ago, and sometimes, some

:27:25.:27:29.

tabloids have maintained an attitude of a kind of judgmental

:27:29.:27:38.

attitude from the 1950s. Just time to pick a winner from yesterday's

:27:38.:27:43.

Guess the Year competition. The answer was 1969, the great battle

:27:43.:27:46.

between Robert Maxwell and Rupert Murdoch for the News Of The World.

:27:46.:27:48.

Rupert Murdoch got it because they thought he was more British than

:27:48.:27:57.

Robert Maxwell. You get to pick the winner. I have not got my glasses.

:27:57.:28:01.

Oh, it is Simon from Liverpool. Just joking. That's all we have got

:28:01.:28:11.

time for today. I have got 40 quid. I'm also back tonight with This

:28:11.:28:15.

Week. And I will be back tomorrow for another day politics. You just

:28:15.:28:20.

can't get enough of it. We will have Tim Montgomerie, the famous

:28:20.:28:30.
:28:30.:28:32.

Tory blogger on, and comedian Andi Osho, who will tell us why she's

:28:32.:28:35.

not happy about the money being spent on the Olympics. And we have

:28:35.:28:38.

had lots of e-mails about Hillsborough, I will be sending

:28:38.:28:43.

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