15/12/2011 Daily Politics


15/12/2011

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Afternoon, folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics. In the aftermath of

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the summer's riots the Government promises to turn around the lives

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of Britain's 120,000 troubled families. Will their �450 million

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scheme do the trick? It's supposed to be the pupils who cheat, but,

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now, apparently the examiners are up to it. Can parents, pupils, and

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employers trust out exams system? Advent's a busy time for Santa and

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his elves. But not for MPs - the Government's not given them much to

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do. Still plenty of time to make the mincemeat, steam the puddings

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and stuff the turkey. And can pop music and politicians ever be a

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good combination? It is too dangerous for politicians to get

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involved in youth culture. They end up looking so old! Not sure if that

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was stiff or stuff the turkey! This is not one of these endless baking

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cooking programmes, this is the Daily Politics! All that in the

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next half-hour. And with us for the whole programme today is Baroness

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Sally Morgan, a Labour Peer, former advisor to Tony Blair, and now

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chair of the schools' inspectorate Ofsted. Welcome to the programme.

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Morning. And it's on a school- related matter that we begin.

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Because this morning the Education Select Committee have been hearing

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from the exams boards over allegations of cheating. The

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Telegraph newspaper recorded an examiner working for the Welsh exam

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board, WJEC, giving teachers prior knowledge of the content of exam

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papers and apparently admitting to cheating. The story comes amidst

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concerns that competition between exam boards has led to a dilution

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of standards. We have not cheated. We have not told them anything at

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all. Every individual in front of them achieves their best... We are

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not talking about teachers in the classroom. We are talking about

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examiners in an Examining Board, teaching the exam to teachers.

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are not teaching the exam to teachers. I mean, I quite... We are

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explaining a specification which is a number of words which some

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teachers will immediately pick up, grasp and get a hold of and others

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would say, you know, what does this particular statement mean? We have

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chosen to do this subject on the day Sally Morgan is here! A lot of

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people who read the Telegraph stuff and watched the secretly-taped

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video and so on, in addition to the details, teachers paying up to �230

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a day to attend seminars with chief examiners. It doesn't pass the

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smell test? I am pleased there is going to be a full investigation.

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That is not Ofsted, it is OFQAL. All of us... You don't regulate it?

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We don't regulate exams. So we have the wrong person?! Send her home!

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You are happy they are going to do it? On a personal basis, many moons

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ago I was a geography teacher so when I read the stuff in Telegraph

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about the geography teacher, I found it incredibly depressing. You

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want education to be as wide as possible and we have to see what

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OFQAL come up with. I hope there is a pretty radical look at the system.

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The exams system is now discredited, would you go that far? There is a

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real level of concern about it. We all know, if you have had kids who

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have gone through exams you know how much they put into exams and

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you know how much teachers put in to helping children prepare. So

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there's got to be a situation where there is real assurance for

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children, teachers and employers that the exams mean something.

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remember there was loads of discussion about past exam papers.

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Hasn't there always been a bit of it is more likely this is going to

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come up than that? Maybe not as we saw in that secretly-recorded film.

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But this idea that there is no communication... You are right. I

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can remember that, too. I can remember saying, "If volcanoes came

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up last year, maybe it is not going to come up next." I remember at

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school and at university, you could go into the library and look out

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the exam papers... It is whether or not this has gone over a line. I

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think it's commonsense. Everybody recognises there has to be - there

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is going to be guesswork and intelligence about what is likely

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to come up in an exam. It is about whether this has crossed the line.

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Does it play into a widely-held view beyond the teaching unions,

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who don't agree, that the exams have got easier? I don't buy that.

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Let me ask you this. Why is it now that the private schools who do the

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same A-levels as the state schools they are getting incredible pass

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rates like five times better than 30 years ago? They are not three or

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five times better. Standards have come up. I know there is

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controversy over that. But standards in schools have come up.

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Coursework has had an impact. I am sure there will be a longer review

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about the role of coursework. There is coursework. When we did exams...

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They were three-hour exams. It is very different now.

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universities say that an A in an A level no longer allows them to

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distinguish between good and bad. Those getting A-level maths to go

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to Cambridge have to do remedial courses. The other thing is...

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some of us went to university, you were interviewed by universities

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and that was an additional way of making an assessment.

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There were a lot of universities that did interviews at that point.

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Even though you are not from OFQAL, we are glad you are here! Now, how

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can Government turn around problem families? The cost to society in

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benefits, public services, policing and even prison is well documented.

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As are the grand gestures of past politicians. Now, David Cameron has

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unveiled his plans. Jo has more. Yes, Andrew, the aftermath of the

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summer riots refocused political thought on the UK's problem

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families. Now, the Government wants to use troubleshooters - a mixture

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of charity, council and private sector workers who will receive

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almost �450 million in taxpayers' money to help 120,000 troubled

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families in England. They will be expected to produce plans which

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could include targets to return parents to work, stop them from

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drinking or taking drugs, and ensuring children go to school. The

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troubleshooters will be paid an average of �3,750 for each family,

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with 60% of the money paid upfront and the remainder "on results". The

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Prime Minister explained how troubleshooters will help. They

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will see the family as a whole and get a plan of action together

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agreed with the family. This will be basic practical things, like

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getting the kids to school on time, properly fed. They are the building

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blocks of any orderly home and a responsible life. These things

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don't always cost a lot, but they make a big difference. Then they

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will get on top of the services, sorting out and sometimes fending

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off the 28 different state services that can come calling at the door.

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Not a string of well-meaning disconnected officials who end up

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treating the symptoms and not the causes. But a clear hard-headed

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recognition of how the family is going wrong and what the family

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members can do to take responsibility. We are joined by

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the Communities Minister and for Labour, Jack Dromey. Minister,

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these problem families already cost us �9 billion a year, �9,000

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million, there's still 120,000 of them. So why will another �450

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million make any difference? have a programme that has already

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begun. We have to accelerate that, make it happen all over the country.

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This is pump-priming money to tackle a deep-seated problem that's

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been going on for generations. do you pump-prime? You have heard

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the Prime Minister say we are going to place in each local authority

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area a troubleshooter, we will be working very closely with local

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authorities, the Probation Service, with education, with Criminal

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Justice System, social services take a tremendous hit from families

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and particularly young children who often for generation after

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generation are in a cycle which simply repeats itself. Is this

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troubleshooter going to knock on the doors and say, "Why are you not

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at work? Why is your kid not at school?" Is that what they are

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going to do? The most important thing is to co-ordinate...

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process? No, it is about real action to bring things together.

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is an interesting initiative. Tell us how it will work. There is a

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problem family - Jo's. Troubleshooter goes to Jo's door,

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if they can get through the debris, what will happen? The key thing is

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to make sure the children are at school and the opportunities for

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the family to develop their skills to get into work are there.

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understand that. We have to tackle the anti-social behaviour...

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Understand all that. Sorry to interrupt you. I understand the

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problem. I know about the problem. I'm just anxious to know what this

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person will do when faced with a troubled family. He won't go, or

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she won't go with a blank sheet of paper. They will have been the work

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with the Probation Service, with the education service, the social

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services beforehand so that it is clear for that particular family

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what needs to be done. So the people... It will be different in

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different places. The people aren't working, the kids are not at school.

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What does the troubleshooter do? The first thing is to get those

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children back into school. How does he do it? Can they force them to

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go? What we have got at the moment is a system where there are

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punishments and rewards but it is difficult to enforce them. So the

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troubleshooter's job is to make sure it is pulled together and it

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really does happen. It's some stick but also some carrot to make sure

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that those children are drawn into the system, the adults as well and

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the anti-social behaviour. We have seen it in examples across the

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country that you get a reduction in anti-social behaviour when there is

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that one-to-one engagement. You get children back into school. I can

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understand how one the one will help. Putting aside my inability to

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find out exactly how this will work, I assume that Labour supports the

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principle? Labour in power was always on about early intervention,

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getting in there. I was looking back at Gordon Brown's speech to

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the Labour Conference in 2007 - that is what my life is reading his

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old speeches! New one-to-one support led by the voluntary sector

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can make all the difference. That's what the Government's doing?

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are right. We acted in Government. The notion of early intervention -

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I see some of those families in my own constituency, deep-seated

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problems. Intergenerational? dad I know who lost his job four

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times in the 1980s and then lost his confidence, never worked again

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and no-one else has ever worked in that household for the 25 years

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subsequently. It is absolutely right that what you do is to have a

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focus on those families because they are not just a problem for

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themselves, they are also a problem for the communities in which they

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live. It's the people around them who are troubled? Sure. Is this a

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consensus I am seeing here? principle is a good one. We

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pioneered it. They also abolished Total Place, that brought together

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all the different agencies in areas where you get... Can I come to the

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practical problems? You asked how does it work? The idea of having a

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trusted person working with a family, helping that family and

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challenging that family is a good thing. I have seen it in my own

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constituency. There's three problems... A tough job. I wouldn't

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like it? Very tough job. There are three problems. Briefly.

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Government says this is what we want to do, we want to put in 40%,

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local government you put in 60%. The only problem about that,

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Birmingham cut �212 million from Birmingham City Council... This

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Andrew! The second thing is that early intervention in areas like

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children's centres, childcare, mental health, all of the things

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that matter to - you invest �1 now, you save �10 later on. Those

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services are being cutback by the Government. The third point is get

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people back into work without hesitation. Work should be central

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to people's lives. But just yesterday's figures that came out,

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Andrew, 500 extra people on the dole in my constituency. The floor

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is yours. Indeed. Listening to the chair of the Local Enterprise

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Centre for the West Midlands, they have vacancies they can't fill

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because they haven't got the skills. There is mass unemployment in

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Birmingham. I think Jack and I agree, but for the sake of this

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programme, he has to disagree! LAUGHTER The community budget

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programme has been running all year. What we have done is to give extra

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impetus beyond the pilot areas including Birmingham. Do local

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authorities have to chivvy up some of this �450 million? They will be

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saving as well. Some of the money they are putting into Children's

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Services, putting children into care, they will be able to save.

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it right you are saying to Birmingham, we will put in 40%, but

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you have to find 60%? No, the police service, the Probation

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Service, the budget is drawn from Government departments, nine

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Government departments, across Government. All right. We want to

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monitor this very carefully. It is interesting. This 120,000 troubled

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families, they do cause a lot of the crime, a lot of social unrest

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and they make life miserable for those around them. I think people

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watching this will only be convinced if this 120,000 figure is

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a real figure and whether it is Labour or Conservative, or Lib Dem,

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come back to us in five years' time and say, "It's now 90,000. There is

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still a way to go but we can say to you, we have moved 30,000 off the

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troubled list." I'm not sure they will be able to do that? The real

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issue for me is the children in those families. Some of whom

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obviously in the end are children who end up causing a lot of

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problems in schools for other children. In the end, they are very

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vulnerable. My question is whether or not really there is sufficient

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resource going into this. I'm convinced about early intervention.

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Have any of you seen the scheme? have seen what a real difference...

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No, have you seen the TV programme? None of you have? Correct.

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should all watch it. It should be compulsory viewing in the Lords and

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the Commons. It is on BBC Scotland. It's a documentry where they went

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into a real scheme full of troubled families and watch that before you

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think you have any answers. I am sure it is on iPlayer. Thank you.

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Jo. Twas the week before the Christmas break and all through the

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House not a creature was stirring, not even an MP. Well, not quite.

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MPs have been holding backbench debates, but the legislation

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workload has certainly dropped off throughout December. A number of

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MPs have also taken the opportunity to start their foreign Christmas

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breaks early, jetting off to warmer climes as the temperatures in

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Westminster fall. So, is this a well deserved rest for our members

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and chance for the Lords to get their heads around legislation, or

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valuable debating time lost? Two MPs that haven't taken off are

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Labour MP Thomas Docherty and, back by popular demand, Conservative MP

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Peter Bone, who both join us now from the Commons. I hope you have

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left that spot since we saw you last, Peter Bone?! Oh yes. Is the

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Government slacking off before Christmas? It is unusual not to

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have anything to do? I don't think so. We have come from the Chamber

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where business questions are being discussed and there are demands

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from lots of MPs for more and more debate. I think it is rather good

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that the Government is enforcing more legislation through. We should

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have less legislation, better scrutiny and better Acts of

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Parliament. In terms of serious legislation, the Commons isn't and

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hasn't looked at anything particularly meaty for weeks?

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Government got it wrong? They had in a sense, that they rushed all

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their stuff through at the beginning to make an impact. We

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should have had more times to scrutinise that. We wouldn't be in

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the situation where we are now where the Lords is having to do

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most of the scrutiny. That is because the Government controls the

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business of the Commons and when we get to a House Business Committee,

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I think Parliament will improve. That is the reason for it. This is

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really just a screw-up in terms of timings and calendar, isn't it? The

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legislation has been looked at by the Commons and is now in the

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Lords? The Commons did not get enough time to do due diligence on

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these bills. Because the Government railroaded them through, they have

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gone to the House of Lords who are taking a part in the most badly-

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drafted bills. The Welfare Reform Bill was defeated and was led by a

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former Secretary of State for Social Security. Given Peter has

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nine bills that he is trying to introduce in the House of Commons

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in the week ahead, I think if anybody needs to look at their own

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regulation, it might be Peter. do you say to that? The Government

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was really poor in allowing Private Members' Bills. One of the things

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we have to do is to reform the House so a Private Members' Bill

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can be debated. Can I come back to this point? Ill-judged and badly-

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drafted legislation. That makes all of us cringe with the idea it is

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going to have to be redone, it will have to be re-debated? We are

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expecting some badly-drafted legislation to be passed here?

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It should have been the Commons? This started up under Blair and

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Brown when they introduced timetabling in the Commons. I would

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like our guest here to my left to support the idea of getting rid of

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programme motions because that's the problem, the Commons is

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restricted on the time it has for debate. That doesn't happen in the

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Lords. It was brought in by Labour. I would like to see that scrapped.

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We will talk to Sally Morgan about that in a minute. This is all

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fascinating for all of us in the Westminster village. Does the

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public really take an interest in terms of the sort of process of

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legislation and the timing that's devoted to it? The public has a

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right to know that why is it the Government's whips collapsed the

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business yesterday at 5.30 so they can go to a carol concert. Why did

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we finish last week at 5.00 so they could go to a Christmas party? It

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is not good for the taxpayer. that note, thank you both very much

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in the House of Commons and Happy Christmas. Happy Christmas.

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Lords seem to be coming into their own having plenty of time... We are

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not finishing at 5.00! We are starting at 10.00 and working

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through till 10.00 at night. We are doing detailed scrutiny of both the

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Health and Welfare Reform Bills. it badly drafted? There is real

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concern about the drafting. will be working right the way

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through? We are working through to the end of next Wednesday. Glad to

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hear it! That is great. We are not! Don't tell them! France could be

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losing its AAA status. Am I looking at the right camera? Remember Cool

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Britannia? A certain Prime Minister getting down with the kids,

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entertaining BRIT popstars at Downing Street? I'm sure Sally

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Morgan does. But does it work? Does a little bit of the stardust rub

:23:24.:23:28.

off on the politicians? Can a good tune change the way we vote? Here's

:23:28.:23:38.
:23:38.:23:43.

The music studios in London. Some of the biggest names in pop have

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prepared here. For a rock fan like me, I'm living the dream. There is

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nothing worse than gentlemen of a certain age pretending they are

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down with the kids and politicians are some of the worst offenders.

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Gordon Brown and the Arctic Monkeys? Really? There has always

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been the strong bond between music and politics. How powerful can a

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song be? Who better to ask than Professor John Street. He's written

:24:10.:24:20.
:24:20.:24:22.

a book called Music and Politics. If you think about music and

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musicians, you do see the use of music to drive political movements

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of some considerable significance and produce an effect.

:24:32.:24:39.

# Things can only get better. # Take this. Remind you of anything?

:24:39.:24:49.
:24:49.:24:50.

Me, too. A catchy tune can be a double edged sword. People point at

:24:50.:24:55.

Things Can Only Get Better so when ever you see a New Labour story

:24:55.:25:01.

clip on the TV, that will be the backdrop to it. It is easy to

:25:01.:25:05.

overplay the impact that those things had at the time. The trouble

:25:05.:25:13.

with that song is it is pathetic, it is an awful song. Ouch! Yet,

:25:13.:25:18.

politicians are drawn to pop music and musicians like moths to a flame.

:25:18.:25:26.

Do we like it? Politics is so desperately uncool at the moment.

:25:26.:25:31.

Even more so than it ever was. It is too dangerous for politicians to

:25:31.:25:36.

get involved in youth culture. you are not making any friends at

:25:36.:25:41.

Westminster! Professor Street and I may not be getting backstage at the

:25:41.:25:48.

next U2 gig. You can get pop stars that will put you off. Can we name

:25:48.:25:53.

names? Bono could put people off, the causes he was advocating,

:25:53.:25:58.

because he was almost too familiar, too much of a man who is always

:25:58.:26:02.

advocating causes. Sorry, Bono. If there is one song which shows the

:26:02.:26:07.

power of music can have over politics, it is this one:

:26:07.:26:15.

# Feed the world. # We were all young once! We're

:26:15.:26:18.

joined now by the Conservative MP and rock music fan who used to work

:26:18.:26:21.

in the music industry, Mike Weatherley. Welcome to the

:26:21.:26:25.

programme. Can you think of a song that has changed politics?

:26:25.:26:34.

necessarily a song. There are musicians that have. Frank Zappa

:26:34.:26:43.

campaigned against censorship. you think of one? Feed The World

:26:43.:26:49.

captured the public mood. You don't see much political protest songs in

:26:49.:26:53.

The X Factor? Music is about fun. This is true. That is what people

:26:53.:26:58.

want to hear. They don't want to be preached at quite often. You agree

:26:58.:27:04.

with that remark about Bono? A lot of people don't want to be preached

:27:04.:27:09.

at. They want to have fun with music. Creative people do want to

:27:09.:27:16.

give a message. Whose idea was Cool Britannia? Not mine! LAUGHTER Thank

:27:16.:27:24.

you! Dry your hands. You made a pledge to the people of Hove that

:27:24.:27:30.

you would wear your Iron Maiden T- shirt in the Commons, have you done

:27:30.:27:36.

so? I have. Westminster Hall I have. I asked the Speaker if he would

:27:36.:27:43.

give me permission, he said "no". They are very noisy! That's a genre

:27:43.:27:48.

that I particularly like. You don't often hear that word on this

:27:48.:27:54.

programme! Music is very important to our overseas earnings. We are

:27:54.:28:03.

world beaters at it! It would make it uncool. All right. Stand up for

:28:03.:28:08.

British music! We are the best! Time before we go to give you the

:28:08.:28:16.

answer to yesterday's Guess The Year competition. It was 1987. The

:28:16.:28:22.

first name gets one of our brand- new mugs. 11 more runners-up will

:28:22.:28:27.

get one of the old ones! You can pick the winner of the brand-new

:28:27.:28:34.

mug. This is the first-ever mug. Adam Williams, County Durham.

:28:34.:28:40.

get the first new mug. Thanks to all our guests. I'll be back

:28:40.:28:43.

tonight for This Week's Review of the Year with Michael Portillo,

:28:43.:28:50.

Diane Abbott and Charles Kennedy. And George Clooney! And tomorrow at

:28:50.:28:53.

noon, I'll be here with the final Daily Politics of 2011 and, as

:28:53.:28:56.

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