Browse content similar to 12/01/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Good afternoon from the Scottish Parliament in Edinburgh where Alex | :00:12. | :00:14. | |
Salmond is holding his first First Ministers' Questions of 2012. | :00:14. | :00:17. | |
Inside the chamber everyone is agreed there should be a referendum | :00:17. | :00:27. | |
:00:27. | :00:27. | ||
on Scottish independence. But they are anything but agreed on WHEN and | :00:27. | :00:37. | |
:00:37. | :01:05. | ||
exactly what question the Scottish It's a beautiful sunny day here in | :01:05. | :01:10. | |
the Scottish capital, but there have been some pretty stormy scenes | :01:10. | :01:15. | |
in the chamber behind me just up these steps. For First Minister | :01:15. | :01:22. | |
Alex Salmond, sparring with the New Labour leader here in Scotland, | :01:22. | :01:27. | |
Johanne Lamont, frankly it wasn't very pretty. I had to avert my eyes. | :01:27. | :01:31. | |
She accused Mr Salmond of not wanting a referendum very quickly. | :01:31. | :01:36. | |
She said there should be one sooner rather than later. She even accused | :01:36. | :01:39. | |
the First Minister of lacking courage. It's not fair on Scotland | :01:39. | :01:42. | |
now or the Scotland of the future for the timing of this referendum | :01:42. | :01:45. | |
to be in the hands of one politician. A Now, the First | :01:45. | :01:48. | |
Minister, Alex Salmond, has already told the Prime Minister, David | :01:48. | :01:53. | |
Cameron, to butt out of all of this business of a referendum, to stop | :01:53. | :01:57. | |
stirring, but we have been doing a bit of stirring ourselves. We sent | :01:57. | :02:02. | |
Max out with "the mood Bob," of the Daily Politics to find out what | :02:02. | :02:05. | |
people down south think of Scottish independence. Anyone else - | :02:05. | :02:12. | |
Scotland? Should it be independent, yes or no? No! The Government says | :02:12. | :02:16. | |
it must press ahead to controversial changes to the | :02:16. | :02:19. | |
welfare reform which were defeated in the House of Lords last night. | :02:19. | :02:21. | |
And we'll be delving into the relationship between the police and | :02:21. | :02:29. | |
the media - are they too close for comfort? | :02:29. | :02:33. | |
Yes, all that coming up in the next half hour. And with us for the | :02:33. | :02:35. | |
duration is the former Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, Ian, | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
now Lord Blair. Welcome to the programme. Thank you very much. | :02:39. | :02:42. | |
first this morning let's talk about welfare reform because last night | :02:42. | :02:45. | |
the Government suffered a series of defeats in the House of Lords over | :02:45. | :02:48. | |
its plans to cut the cost of welfare. Labour and cross-bench | :02:48. | :02:51. | |
peers defeated plans to means test and time limit payments to those | :02:51. | :02:53. | |
recovering from serious illnesses such as cancer. Peers also | :02:53. | :02:55. | |
overturned a plan to restrict young people with disabilities from | :02:55. | :03:04. | |
claiming benefits. You, Ian, were one of them, weren't you? I was. | :03:04. | :03:07. | |
What was the strength of the feeling like? I think the strength | :03:07. | :03:10. | |
of the feeling was very considerable. I am a new boy in | :03:11. | :03:15. | |
there, but I am told by the old hands it's a very, very long time | :03:15. | :03:18. | |
since the Government has lost three divisions in a row and by | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
significant margins. The Government has already said this morning - | :03:22. | :03:26. | |
Christopher grailing has been out saying we're going to overturn | :03:26. | :03:29. | |
those defeats, and you're wrong on this issue. Obviously, the | :03:29. | :03:33. | |
Government has the right to put it back to the Commons and change it, | :03:33. | :03:38. | |
but the mood of the Lords was summed up by the really marvellous | :03:38. | :03:42. | |
Lord Patel, the obstetrician, who led the amendments, who said if | :03:42. | :03:46. | |
we're going to rob the poor to pay the rich, then that is the kind of | :03:46. | :03:50. | |
morality I cannot support. And the whole issue here is that the most | :03:50. | :03:56. | |
vulnerable people - the people recovering from cancer, the people | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
with long-term disabilities, are going to lose money in a | :03:59. | :04:04. | |
significant way, to the extent of nearly �100 a week in some cases, | :04:04. | :04:08. | |
and in particular this issue of what's called the Education Support | :04:08. | :04:12. | |
Allowance. There is a suggestion that the people would be limited to | :04:12. | :04:17. | |
just one year of that as from April, but also they're going to back date | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
it, so if you have been on it for a year you're going to lose it on the | :04:21. | :04:25. | |
first day. The Government no doubt made its case in the House of Lords | :04:26. | :04:30. | |
today and has reiterated it saying actually they have made adequate | :04:30. | :04:32. | |
provision for those people. The welfare reforms are the centrepiece | :04:32. | :04:36. | |
of their policy plan, and if the defeats you put on the Government | :04:36. | :04:42. | |
last night were to go ahead, it would cost between �1.5 and �2 | :04:42. | :04:44. | |
billion that has to be claimed somewhere. That is an important | :04:44. | :04:49. | |
issue. Hugely important, but those figures, as I understand them, | :04:49. | :04:53. | |
relate to absolutely everybody taking the maximum period they | :04:53. | :04:57. | |
could possibly do. One of the instances is, for instance, cancer | :04:57. | :05:03. | |
patients who are undergoing chemotherapy and so on - wented | :05:03. | :05:06. | |
that period extended beyond one year. Everybody who knows anything | :05:06. | :05:11. | |
at it says that most people want to go back to work as soon as possible. | :05:11. | :05:16. | |
It's part of the therapy, but some can't. This is an issue that no | :05:16. | :05:20. | |
doubt will come back. Stay with us. We're going to return to Edinburgh | :05:20. | :05:27. | |
and Andrew Neil who is at the Holyrood Parliament. Thanks. All | :05:27. | :05:32. | |
the headlines in the coverage for this in London and Edinburgh have | :05:32. | :05:38. | |
been dominateded by the process, when will the referendum be? Should | :05:38. | :05:43. | |
there be more than one question, an interim question between status quo | :05:43. | :05:46. | |
and independence? Who should look after the referendum? Should it be | :05:46. | :05:49. | |
the Electoral Commission or so on? When we were today offered an | :05:49. | :05:54. | |
interview with Scotland's Finance Minister, John Swinney, I thought | :05:54. | :05:58. | |
we'd park the process for a minute and ask a bit of substance about | :05:58. | :06:02. | |
what an independent Scotland would look like in his view, so I began | :06:02. | :06:08. | |
by asking him, what would the currency be if Scotland was | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
independent? It would be sterling. We have made it clear that would be | :06:12. | :06:16. | |
the currency we'd inherit, inherit those arrangements from the United | :06:16. | :06:20. | |
Kingdom. That is the basis on which we would plan independence. There | :06:20. | :06:24. | |
is a debate to be had about the European central currency, but we | :06:24. | :06:28. | |
have set out we'd only ever go into a single currency if the economic | :06:28. | :06:31. | |
conditions were correct and if the people of Scotland voted for that | :06:31. | :06:35. | |
in a referendum, and the economic conditions in our opinion most | :06:35. | :06:39. | |
definitely are not correct for that at this time, so sterling would be | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
the currency... So Bank of England - the Bank of England would set an | :06:43. | :06:46. | |
independent Scotland's interest rates? We would have to operate in | :06:46. | :06:49. | |
that fashion if that was the operation of the Bank of England... | :06:49. | :06:52. | |
So interest rates would be set by London? The key proposition that | :06:52. | :06:54. | |
would be different about independence in that context is | :06:54. | :06:59. | |
that a Scottish Government would be able to pursue its own fiscal | :06:59. | :07:01. | |
policy which would enable an independent Scotland to take | :07:01. | :07:05. | |
significantly more decisions than can ever be taken today about | :07:05. | :07:08. | |
ensuring that we have the economic conditions and interventions that | :07:08. | :07:12. | |
are appropriate for the needs and the aspirations of the Scottish | :07:12. | :07:16. | |
economy. That's fiscal policy, but you wouldn't control your own | :07:16. | :07:20. | |
interest rates or money supply? You couldn't print your own money, is | :07:20. | :07:23. | |
that right? But what we would be... Is that right? The Bank of England | :07:23. | :07:26. | |
would be able to take decisions... Yeah, the Bank of England would | :07:26. | :07:29. | |
take decisions about a country in which it was not part and didn't | :07:29. | :07:34. | |
care about. But obviously, if it was operating - if the currency was | :07:34. | :07:36. | |
part of the jurisdiction of the Bank of England, if that was part | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
of the agreement and approach that we took, then the Bank of England | :07:40. | :07:43. | |
would operate in a fashion that was appropriate to those economic | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
circumstances, but what we would also be able to do - and this is a | :07:47. | :07:52. | |
crucial point, Andrew - there would be a separate distinction about | :07:52. | :07:54. | |
fiscal policy that would be able to be taken forward about a Scottish | :07:54. | :07:57. | |
Government which would give us significantly more economic | :07:58. | :08:03. | |
influence and leverage than we have at the present time, and... That's | :08:03. | :08:06. | |
not what I am asking about. Would - the Bank of England would also | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
control how much you could borrow, correct? Well, the Bank of England | :08:10. | :08:13. | |
- the Scottish Government would determine what degree of borrowing | :08:13. | :08:17. | |
it was able to take forward. the Bank of England would have to | :08:17. | :08:21. | |
have a say-so to that. It would have to do so within a sustainable | :08:21. | :08:23. | |
climate and framework. Set by the Bank of England. That's where you | :08:24. | :08:28. | |
have to take into account the fact that we have both - there is a | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
debate about monetary policy and also fiscal policy because what | :08:32. | :08:36. | |
fiscal policy enables you to do is to create a more prosperous set of | :08:36. | :08:40. | |
conditions and deliver a greater degree of growth. I understand that | :08:40. | :08:44. | |
an independent Scotland sets its own tax. No. I would like you to | :08:44. | :08:47. | |
answer this question. Would the Bank of England control how much | :08:47. | :08:50. | |
you could borrow? Let me complete this point - what's important about | :08:50. | :08:53. | |
fiscal policy is it can influence the amount of growth you can | :08:53. | :08:57. | |
deliver in the economy, which is clearly a fact of the influences - | :08:57. | :09:02. | |
the degree of borrowing that is required to be undertaken soo. You | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
would have to apply to join the European Union. No, we wouldn't. | :09:06. | :09:10. | |
But Scotland isn't a part of the you'reene union. We're clearly a | :09:10. | :09:15. | |
part of it today. We inherit the obligations of the United Kingdom... | :09:15. | :09:18. | |
Do you have guidance from Brussels you wouldn't have to rejoin? If you | :09:18. | :09:24. | |
look at some... Have you had guidance from Brussels? If you look | :09:24. | :09:29. | |
at the most distinguished opinion on this suffered offered by one of | :09:29. | :09:35. | |
the secretaries of the European Commission, if you look at a report | :09:36. | :09:39. | |
by Eamon Gallagher - the treaty obligations of the United Kingdom | :09:39. | :09:45. | |
and being already a member of the European Union... Sure. The Royal | :09:45. | :09:50. | |
Bank of Scotland - 83% owned by the UK taxpayer. Who would own it after | :09:50. | :09:52. | |
independence? That would obviously be part of the dialogue that would | :09:52. | :09:56. | |
have to take place between the United Kingdom Government... Would | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
you take it over? Clearly, we would have an interest in the ownership | :10:00. | :10:03. | |
of the Royal Bank of Scotland, but it would be part of a negotiation | :10:04. | :10:07. | |
between the Scottish Government and UK... But is it the policy of the | :10:07. | :10:12. | |
Scottish Nationalists the Royal Bank of Scotland should become a | :10:12. | :10:16. | |
wholly owned Scottish bank again? What it should become in our | :10:16. | :10:20. | |
aspiration is a privately owned bank, and we'd want to encourage | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
the bank as soon as it is efficiently able to do so to become | :10:24. | :10:27. | |
a privately owned bank. That is what it should be. I understand | :10:27. | :10:31. | |
that. For the foreseeable future, it doesn't look like it's happening. | :10:31. | :10:35. | |
It's owned by the state at the moment. Will the Scottish state | :10:35. | :10:39. | |
take it over? The UK Government has disposed of its interests in | :10:39. | :10:42. | |
Northern Rock. What's the answer to my question? Will the Scottish | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
state take over the Royal Bank of Scotland? My to answer you is | :10:46. | :10:50. | |
twofold. One is the fact that the Scottish Government would negotiate | :10:50. | :10:52. | |
that with the United Kingdom Government, what the ongoing | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
arrangements were. Secondly, we would have the aspiration, just | :10:56. | :11:01. | |
like the UK Government has, to return the Royal Bank of Scotland | :11:01. | :11:05. | |
to its proper place within the private sector which I think will | :11:05. | :11:11. | |
happen soon. In the interim, will you take over its toxic assets as | :11:11. | :11:14. | |
well? That's part of the interests the UK has within the Royal Bank of | :11:14. | :11:18. | |
Scotland. It has to be properly negotiated between the two | :11:18. | :11:22. | |
governments. What's important is the Royal Bank of Scotland is on a | :11:22. | :11:25. | |
journey to get back into private ownership. We'd want to encourage | :11:25. | :11:30. | |
that. That was John Swinney talking to the SNP earlier on. A lot of | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
people in England and Wales think Scottish independence is as much | :11:33. | :11:37. | |
matter for them as the people of Scotland. We sent Max out with the | :11:37. | :11:42. | |
mood box to see what the people of London thought. It's an ancient | :11:42. | :11:45. | |
political debate - independence for Scotland - should we hold our | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
Scottish brothers and sisters to our bosom in a United Kingdom of | :11:49. | :11:53. | |
Great Britain and Northern Ireland, or should Scotland be unhitched and | :11:53. | :11:58. | |
pushed out into the North Atlantic? That's the question - do we want an | :11:58. | :12:06. | |
Scotland - should it be independent? Yes or no? Pop a poll | :12:06. | :12:14. | |
in the box? No. OK. No, no, no. Half my roots are Scottish and half | :12:14. | :12:19. | |
English, so I don't wish to divide my allegiances. I voted no. | :12:19. | :12:24. | |
voted no. Great. I was going to vote yes. | :12:25. | :12:28. | |
Because I think it would be a good idea that we wouldn't have to pay | :12:28. | :12:33. | |
for their National Health. think they should pay for their own | :12:33. | :12:37. | |
National Health? I definitely do. Do you think the English People | :12:37. | :12:41. | |
should get a vote on Scottish independence? With Scottish genes, | :12:41. | :12:48. | |
yes. You voted no. Why is that? think a Act of Union was correct in | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
1707. Would you vote to make Scotland independent? Yes, I would | :12:52. | :12:56. | |
do. It's because you love Scotland? I love Scotland. I love the | :12:56. | :13:00. | |
Scottish people. We have only been at it half an hour, and it's very | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
evenly matched between yes and no, but what lots and lots of people | :13:03. | :13:07. | |
are saying is there should be a third box which says it's up to the | :13:07. | :13:12. | |
Scottish people. Ultimately, politically, it needs | :13:12. | :13:16. | |
to be Scotland's decision, but I don't think it's realistic. Keep | :13:16. | :13:20. | |
together. I kind of want them to be independent, so it shows them how | :13:21. | :13:24. | |
isolating it is to be alone. aren't we getting a vote as well? | :13:24. | :13:28. | |
Why do you think we should get a vote in England? I think it affects | :13:28. | :13:33. | |
England as well as Scotland. We should get a vote too. Are you | :13:33. | :13:39. | |
French? Should it be independent or not? Lieb, OK. | :13:39. | :13:45. | |
I am conflicted here because the only reason the Tories are giving | :13:45. | :13:49. | |
us independence is so there are less Labour MPs in Parliament. | :13:49. | :13:53. | |
that the only reason? I am bloody sure that's the reason. Is it | :13:53. | :13:58. | |
Andrew Neil? Yeah, yeah. If only you said, in which case... You're | :13:58. | :14:04. | |
going to vote no. Right. Time is up - lots of people voting. The yeses | :14:04. | :14:09. | |
are just about ahead after an hour- and-a-half. My two favourite | :14:09. | :14:14. | |
comments have been, firstly, what on earth are you doing asking this | :14:14. | :14:20. | |
question in London, you burke? The second, which is the box for | :14:20. | :14:22. | |
rebuilding Hadrian's Wall? LAUGHTER | :14:22. | :14:28. | |
That's very funny. Evenly split there as well. I am joined by Lord | :14:28. | :14:33. | |
Foulkes, and, of course, Ian Blair is with us too. Does it take two to | :14:33. | :14:37. | |
separate, as we heard some people saying here? I think that is very | :14:37. | :14:41. | |
good point. There is a legitimate English interest. I am in favour of | :14:41. | :14:45. | |
a federal system. I want to see devolution to England. Don't put | :14:45. | :14:49. | |
any other options forward, please! I thought it was very interesting, | :14:49. | :14:53. | |
Andrew's interview with John Swinney. You can see why they don't | :14:53. | :14:56. | |
want an earlier referendum. He couldn't answer the question on | :14:56. | :15:01. | |
currency, on RBS, on European membership. He didn't even get on | :15:01. | :15:03. | |
to the army, Navy and air force. There are so many unanswered | :15:03. | :15:08. | |
questions. That is the point. It has been about the process - or a | :15:08. | :15:11. | |
large part of the discussion has been about the process. Once we get | :15:11. | :15:17. | |
into the substance of it, it may be more difficult in terms of | :15:17. | :15:21. | |
presenting an argument as far as the SNP is concerned, is that your | :15:21. | :15:25. | |
view? Yes. I think they want to delay it as much as possible. | :15:25. | :15:29. | |
give them more time? Yes, to work up their arguments. I am also | :15:29. | :15:33. | |
worried they're trying to fix the referendum because what is | :15:33. | :15:35. | |
absolutely vital is that the Electoral Commission must run it, | :15:35. | :15:39. | |
an independent body. That's same all over the world. Electoral | :15:39. | :15:45. | |
Commissions do that. What they want to do is run it themselves - decide | :15:45. | :15:48. | |
the timing... They would argue they confounded expectations last year, | :15:48. | :15:53. | |
and they won, and they won very decisively in those elections, and | :15:53. | :15:57. | |
one might say as a result partly of Labour's failure in Scotland. Do | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
you accept Labour hasn't performed well in Scotland and has allowed | :16:00. | :16:04. | |
Alex Salmond and the SNP to perform as well as it snas I think that's | :16:04. | :16:08. | |
inevitably a conclusion you're right to draw. | :16:08. | :16:15. | |
But he got 45% of the vote. They talk about an overwhelming mandate. | :16:15. | :16:18. | |
45% is not overwhelming. They have always made their position clear. | :16:18. | :16:23. | |
We have said that they have got a right for a referendum to be | :16:23. | :16:29. | |
conducted. We have accepted that. What was said by Michael Moore in | :16:29. | :16:31. | |
the Commons yesterday quite rightly is they don't have the legal | :16:31. | :16:35. | |
ability to do it. We can give them the power to do that, but it must | :16:35. | :16:41. | |
be done fairly. There was a statesman-like agreement in the | :16:41. | :16:45. | |
House of Commons yesterday between David Cameron and Ed Miliband | :16:45. | :16:47. | |
yesterday over the future of Scotland and Scottish independence. | :16:47. | :16:50. | |
Do you agree that the Prime Minister could end up being the | :16:50. | :17:00. | |
:17:00. | :17:04. | ||
best recruiting sergeant for an That's quite possible. I think | :17:04. | :17:07. | |
there are voices coming forward now, from all over the United Kingdom, | :17:07. | :17:13. | |
saying this is a bigger issue than just about Scotland. There was a | :17:13. | :17:17. | |
very good article in the Telegraph yesterday about the nature of | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
British identity, that actually the Scots and the English and the Irish | :17:21. | :17:27. | |
and the Welsh have developed an identity which is a force for good | :17:27. | :17:31. | |
p -- in the world. Do you think it was a mistake for some of Labour's | :17:31. | :17:36. | |
big beasts from, Scotland, to come down to Westminster? Have they | :17:36. | :17:41. | |
ignored and forgotten it? No, we live up there. We are active in | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
Scottish politic. We have to be active in British politics as well. | :17:45. | :17:48. | |
We are Scottish, blish, we are European. That is the -- British, | :17:48. | :17:53. | |
we are European. That is the modern way to look at it. To talk about | :17:53. | :17:58. | |
hundreds of years is really turning the clock back in a ridiculous way. | :17:58. | :18:03. | |
Let's go back to Edinburgh now. Here in Edinburgh I am joined by | :18:03. | :18:12. | |
two of the finest of Her Majesty's press core here in the Holyrood | :18:12. | :18:21. | |
Parliament, Lorraine Davidson from The Times and Alan Cochrane. | :18:21. | :18:25. | |
If the Scottish nationalists, if this Parliament goes ahead with a | :18:25. | :18:30. | |
referendum, on its own terms, would it immediately be challenged in the | :18:30. | :18:34. | |
courts? I think it will be. That will mean the referendum is held up, | :18:34. | :18:40. | |
possibly, for years, beyond Alex Salmond's term in power. You will | :18:40. | :18:44. | |
then have some sort of civil movement, where people are saying, | :18:44. | :18:48. | |
didn't we vote for this? Isn't it our democratic right? All that will | :18:48. | :18:53. | |
amount to a lot of frustration and anger in Scotland. David Cameron's | :18:53. | :18:58. | |
offer to Alex Salmond, is despite all of Alex Salmond's bluster, a | :18:58. | :19:02. | |
very attractive one to him. If he wants to put his once in a lifetime | :19:02. | :19:06. | |
opportunity to the people of Scotland. If fear a referendum, if | :19:06. | :19:10. | |
he does not negotiate with London would be unconstitutional, because | :19:10. | :19:16. | |
it is a reserved power of the Scotland Roit Act. That is for all | :19:16. | :19:26. | |
:19:26. | :19:28. | ||
the bluster and Mr Cameron being -- that is for doing a deal? There are | :19:28. | :19:33. | |
two Alex Salmond could do a deal on now. He could do a deal about the | :19:33. | :19:38. | |
16 year olds voting. He has to have an independent overseeing of the | :19:39. | :19:45. | |
referendum. He cannot apoint three pals to say, "That is fine, on you | :19:45. | :19:54. | |
go." It has George Reid. One of the founders of modernism. | :19:54. | :19:58. | |
This explains why he's trying to kick the referendum into 2014, why | :19:58. | :20:03. | |
he wants more than one question. If there was a simple - do you want to | :20:03. | :20:09. | |
be independent or don't you? Yes or no? If that was held now, the Scots | :20:09. | :20:14. | |
would probably vote "no", am I right? It is running around one- | :20:14. | :20:20. | |
third of Scots. It has been as long as that. It has always been around | :20:20. | :20:24. | |
one-third. There's no great momentum behind demand for | :20:25. | :20:28. | |
independence. It's a high-risk strategy. If he gos to the people | :20:28. | :20:33. | |
with that and he loses it, they cannot come back with that question. | :20:33. | :20:37. | |
He wants a consolation prize. He wants to come away and say people | :20:37. | :20:40. | |
in Scotland have demonstrated what they want is sweeping new powers | :20:40. | :20:46. | |
for the Parliament. Then he can go to party and say, all we have to do | :20:46. | :20:48. | |
now is the final piece of the jigsaw. | :20:48. | :20:54. | |
Is he frightened he would lose it if it went now and it was a simple | :20:54. | :20:59. | |
yes or no question? Yes. Otherwise we would have had the referendum. | :20:59. | :21:02. | |
We've been talking about independence since you and I were | :21:02. | :21:07. | |
boys. That was not yesterday. is at least ten years ago. I have | :21:07. | :21:13. | |
been back in Scotland for 17 years. It has been in the agenda and | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
newspapers for every day of those 17 years. Alex wants another three | :21:17. | :21:23. | |
years. What is left to discuss? Alan Cochrane has offered to take | :21:23. | :21:29. | |
us for lunch. You never turn an offer down like that from Mr | :21:29. | :21:32. | |
Cochrane. It's all right for some. See you | :21:32. | :21:36. | |
next week. Is the relationship between the police and media too | :21:36. | :21:40. | |
cosy? Last week a report found the close relationship between parts of | :21:40. | :21:43. | |
Scotland Yard and the media had caused serious harm. We will get | :21:43. | :21:47. | |
the thoughts of our guess of the day in a moment. He used to be in | :21:47. | :21:57. | |
:21:57. | :22:00. | ||
charge of the Metropolitan Police. Welcome to the Red Lion. It is one | :22:00. | :22:05. | |
of my Westminster locals. If I was a crime reporter it is the sort of | :22:05. | :22:09. | |
place I might sink a jar or three with some of my Scotland Yard | :22:09. | :22:13. | |
contacts N the wake of the phone hacking scandal that could be a | :22:13. | :22:17. | |
thing of the past. Socialising and flirting between journalism coppers, | :22:17. | :22:27. | |
a bit of a no, no. Elizabeth Filkin has devised a new set of rules. | :22:27. | :22:34. | |
Very briefly, clearer guidelines on briefings and more transparency are | :22:34. | :22:38. | |
in. Cosy chats, leaking to your favourite journalists, they are out. | :22:38. | :22:42. | |
They are likely to be adopted by other police forces as well. Will | :22:42. | :22:46. | |
they work? It is really important that the newspapers and police | :22:46. | :22:50. | |
establish a much clearer line between what is incorrect and what | :22:50. | :22:53. | |
is correct. For instance, I don't think they should be wining and | :22:53. | :22:59. | |
dining. They should have meetings, maybe a coffee, but not a bottle of | :22:59. | :23:02. | |
champagne. Without that informal contact can we find out what is | :23:02. | :23:06. | |
really going on? She talks about openness and transparency in her | :23:06. | :23:10. | |
report. At the same time, she talks about threatening ordinary officers | :23:10. | :23:15. | |
with criminal investigations and the sack if they have informal | :23:15. | :23:18. | |
conversations with journalists they trust. That seems to be closing | :23:18. | :23:22. | |
down an avenue for police officers who have concerns about racism, | :23:23. | :23:25. | |
malpractice to talk to journalists they trust and to get that | :23:25. | :23:30. | |
information out there. Now, she would say that perhaps. What about | :23:30. | :23:35. | |
a veteran of some of Britain's toughest murder cases? Has anyone | :23:35. | :23:40. | |
over a couple of pints got more out of you than you intended to say? | :23:40. | :23:45. | |
find that hysterical. No way. I am sure if you spoke to most, they | :23:45. | :23:49. | |
will say never go for a drink with Sue, I will drink them under the | :23:49. | :23:52. | |
table, as will many of my colleagues. We've had a trusting | :23:52. | :23:57. | |
relationship. I think for the sake of one or two people who have | :23:57. | :24:02. | |
behaved or perceived to behave inappropriately with the media it | :24:02. | :24:07. | |
is a sledgehammer to crack a nut. One of the former commissioners, | :24:07. | :24:11. | |
when he was faced a scandal he told officers to be open and talk to the | :24:11. | :24:15. | |
media, talk to other people about their concerns. He thought shining | :24:15. | :24:18. | |
a light on a scandal was better than covering things up. It is a | :24:18. | :24:22. | |
thought. With the police and media both facing huge pressure to reform, | :24:22. | :24:27. | |
is this drinking-up time and a last chance salon? | :24:27. | :24:34. | |
Of course, Ian Blair is here. Let's pick up on the wining and dining | :24:34. | :24:39. | |
issue. Will in the end, a report end up closing communications | :24:39. | :24:42. | |
between the police and media? Communications that are in the | :24:42. | :24:47. | |
words of the detective in that film and also the crime reporter, a good | :24:47. | :24:53. | |
thing? I think Elizabeth Filkin has fired a bun der blast at this. | :24:53. | :24:58. | |
There are two or thing things going on. You have the relationship for - | :24:58. | :25:03. | |
let me stop for a second, it may appear that I may appear in front | :25:03. | :25:06. | |
of the Leveson Inquiry to talk about this. | :25:06. | :25:13. | |
Of course. There is an issue between senior officers and | :25:13. | :25:18. | |
journalists. That will have an examination. That's the wining and | :25:18. | :25:22. | |
dining thing. That was too much about.... There is a suggestion it | :25:22. | :25:27. | |
was becoming a bit frequent. Then at the really difficult end of the | :25:27. | :25:31. | |
scale you clearly have got a small number of police officers and a | :25:32. | :25:34. | |
small number of journalists who are prepared to exchange information | :25:34. | :25:38. | |
for money. That is illegal. The people involved, on both sides, | :25:38. | :25:41. | |
should be arrested and, if the evidence is there, should be | :25:41. | :25:46. | |
charged and put before the courts. It's the middle bit that Sue Hill | :25:46. | :25:51. | |
was talking about. I am with Robert. I think we should | :25:51. | :25:55. | |
have a really open relationship with the press inside the police. | :25:55. | :25:58. | |
We should meet journalists, we should talk. We should not give | :25:58. | :26:02. | |
away matters which are confidential. But we should have a situation in | :26:02. | :26:09. | |
which a police officer, who feels something is wrong, as soon as any | :26:09. | :26:13. | |
other whistleblower should be in that situation. Is it difficult to | :26:13. | :26:18. | |
control those relationships if alcohol is involved? Elizabeth says | :26:18. | :26:23. | |
alcohol and journalists don't mix, avoid flirtation. It sound relick | :26:23. | :26:32. | |
douse. Surely you are -- ridiculous, surely you are grown ups. It's a | :26:32. | :26:38. | |
long time since I have been in the position of being a middle-ranking | :26:38. | :26:42. | |
or junior officer. I don't recall a situation in which people were | :26:42. | :26:46. | |
getting drunk together. These are conversations that need to happen, | :26:46. | :26:53. | |
the same way as conversations need to happen between other parts of | :26:53. | :26:57. | |
the state with journalism. That is what a free press is there. There | :26:57. | :27:01. | |
should be a clear code of conduct and people should stick by it. | :27:01. | :27:05. | |
There is a code of conduct. As you say, financial transactions are | :27:05. | :27:10. | |
illegal any way. How can you really stop these things happening? Well, | :27:10. | :27:16. | |
the question is, what are we trying to stop? I hope leveson will find a | :27:16. | :27:20. | |
distinction between the elements wrapped up in this conversation. | :27:20. | :27:23. | |
What about the links with politicians? It's not just about | :27:23. | :27:26. | |
the media. You talked about officers, particularly at the top | :27:26. | :27:32. | |
level. Is that relationship also too cosy? You will no doubt be | :27:32. | :27:37. | |
asked about that too?. I think it is inevitable. The Metropolitan | :27:37. | :27:41. | |
Police deals with the most difficult inquiries. It deals with | :27:41. | :27:44. | |
the protection of the Royal Family and counter-terrorism. Are we going | :27:44. | :27:47. | |
to say the commissioner is not going to speak to the Home | :27:47. | :27:51. | |
Secretary about that. That is inevitable. The relationship | :27:51. | :27:55. | |
between journalists and police officers will continue. In the end, | :27:55. | :28:03. | |
will anything fundamentally change as a result of the Leveson Inquiry? | :28:03. | :28:08. | |
I think, I really do hope some things will change. It did become, | :28:08. | :28:14. | |
in my view looking back, a too cosy relationship between some senior | :28:14. | :28:19. | |
officers and some journalists and editors. I think that has to be, at | :28:19. | :28:24. | |
least clearer - I think is the right description. I am with Robert | :28:24. | :28:30. | |
Mark. We should shine a clear light T publication of diaries by senior | :28:30. | :28:34. | |
police officers - I don't mean memoirs - I mean the daily diary, | :28:34. | :28:39. | |
it seems to me really important. have time for you to pick one of | :28:39. | :28:43. | |
these out of the big mug. This is the winner of the Guess The Year. | :28:43. | :28:51. |