Browse content similar to 30/01/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
Afternoon, folks, welcome to the Daily Politics. The Prime Minister | :00:40. | :00:43. | |
is back in Brussels for the first time since wielding to the Dell | :00:43. | :00:47. | |
last month, but has his stance on the deal agreed by the rest of the | :00:47. | :00:52. | |
EU softened? RBS boss Stephen Hester forgoes his �1 million bonus, | :00:52. | :00:58. | |
but he and other bosses could still be in line for millions more. When | :00:58. | :01:02. | |
our Conservative Home Secretary announced a 20% cut to police, she | :01:02. | :01:07. | |
got a stony reception from officers, so will they be won over by the | :01:07. | :01:10. | |
compromise announced today? And could last summer's riots have been | :01:10. | :01:15. | |
prevented if parents felt free to smack their children? The Labour MP | :01:15. | :01:21. | |
for Tottenham thinks CO, so should the law be changed? -- thinks so. | :01:21. | :01:25. | |
All that in the next 60 minutes, and with me today is for Mark | :01:25. | :01:28. | |
policy wonk Matthew Taylor, who is now chief executive of the Royal | :01:28. | :01:32. | |
Society for the encouragement of Arts, manufactures and Commerce, | :01:32. | :01:37. | |
the RSA. First this morning, Home Secretary Theresa May has announced | :01:37. | :01:41. | |
plans for reform of police forces in England and Wales. The original | :01:41. | :01:45. | |
proposals were to have saved �1 billion, but after a backlash from | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
police officers, the Government has gone with a compromise deal. | :01:49. | :01:52. | |
Theresa May also announced plans to give communities tougher powers to | :01:52. | :01:56. | |
tackle antisocial behaviour. This is what she had to say earlier. | :01:56. | :02:02. | |
Since the 1970s, pays systems and the private and wider public sector | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
have changed to recognise and reward specialist skills. The most | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
productive employees are paid more, incentives are used to improve | :02:10. | :02:16. | |
performance. But in the police that does not happen enough. Skills, | :02:16. | :02:20. | |
performance and successful crime- fighting are not rewarded. Time- | :02:20. | :02:24. | |
servers still determines how well most police officers are paid. -- | :02:24. | :02:29. | |
Times served. I do not think that is right. I am joined by the | :02:29. | :02:32. | |
chairman of the Police Federation, which represents police officers. | :02:32. | :02:37. | |
Thank you for joining us today. pleasure. We heard from Theresa May | :02:37. | :02:41. | |
about reform of how police are paid, and she said that some would be | :02:41. | :02:44. | |
disappointed. Bearing that in mind, when you accept what she is | :02:44. | :02:49. | |
proposing? We respect the fact she has honoured the police arbitration | :02:50. | :02:53. | |
tribunal, but there is still �160 million being taken out of police | :02:53. | :02:59. | |
officers' pockets, and when you put this alongside the pay freeze and | :02:59. | :03:02. | |
other pay that has been taken out of our pockets, it is not the most | :03:02. | :03:06. | |
attractive situation. Whatever Theresa May says about police | :03:06. | :03:10. | |
reform, the bottom line here is that the police budget has been cut | :03:10. | :03:15. | |
by up to one third, 30% is the amount we are losing from our | :03:15. | :03:17. | |
budget with inflationary considerations over the next four | :03:17. | :03:22. | |
years. This is part of it. You feel you have been harder hit than other | :03:22. | :03:28. | |
public sectors. We accept what she is proposing? We are bound by the | :03:28. | :03:31. | |
arbitration decision anyway, and we said that when it was announced, | :03:31. | :03:34. | |
but we are disappointed that we are going through a process which has | :03:34. | :03:37. | |
taken even more money out of our pay than elsewhere in the public | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
sector. There is a schizophrenia about some of the things she said | :03:40. | :03:44. | |
today. She said it is a choice between having our pace oppressed | :03:44. | :03:49. | |
and reduced, or losing jobs, and yet in the last year alone we have | :03:49. | :03:53. | |
lost 7,000 jobs across the country, and that is in the first year of | :03:53. | :03:56. | |
cuts that will go on for another three and a half years. Not all | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
officers would lose pay. What she is saying is that there would be a | :04:00. | :04:03. | |
restructuring, to provide incentives for officers with | :04:03. | :04:07. | |
special skills, those working antisocial hours and poor people to | :04:07. | :04:10. | |
have incentives on the front line. Those who do not do those things | :04:10. | :04:15. | |
will be paid last. That sounds a fairer division of the money. | :04:15. | :04:18. | |
if police officers have autonomy of what they do and where they work, | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
and as most people in the public will know, we do not have complete | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
control over the job we perform within the service. We joined the | :04:26. | :04:29. | |
service and are directed to where we work, and so some officers will | :04:29. | :04:33. | |
find themselves being moved from one post which is given one level | :04:33. | :04:36. | |
of pay and then moved to another post where they are finding a | :04:36. | :04:40. | |
reduction through no fault of their own. We think that is unfair and | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
does not recognise the realities of policing in Britain today. | :04:44. | :04:48. | |
question there is, if you take on board some of the reforms, you were | :04:48. | :04:53. | |
never going to support pay cuts for your offices, where you? As I said, | :04:53. | :04:58. | |
we are already facing what are, in effect, a cuts of the next few | :04:58. | :05:03. | |
years. We accept that, and we are one of the few parts of the public | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
sector has accepted that there needs to be cuts, up to 12%, we | :05:07. | :05:11. | |
said, but we are seeing cuts that go way beyond that, and it is not | :05:11. | :05:16. | |
good for the police service, as we heard the chief constables say over | :05:16. | :05:19. | |
the weekend. He said his forces facing a cliff edge, and it is not | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
good for the public either. It is putting public safety at risk, | :05:23. | :05:27. | |
these massive cuts. But you do accept the force has to be | :05:27. | :05:31. | |
modernised. Theresa May said it had not been reforms in the 1970s. | :05:31. | :05:36. | |
is not true, we have been through pay reforms of the last decade, and | :05:36. | :05:38. | |
some of the revisions that have been proposed in the Winsor Report | :05:38. | :05:42. | |
are actually old-fashioned provisions, not modernisation of | :05:42. | :05:45. | |
police pay at all. It is actually setting officers against officers. | :05:45. | :05:50. | |
It is also going to have rode the trust in police officers as well. | :05:50. | :05:53. | |
Police officers, if they're going to be paid for performance, there | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
will be a suspicion that if they are stopped by the police, that | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
they are being reported not because they feel they should be, but | :06:00. | :06:03. | |
because the officer might get a bonus. That cannot be a good thing | :06:03. | :06:09. | |
in policing. It is something we should not have. Matthew Taylor, | :06:09. | :06:13. | |
people and said the police is the one and reformed public service. Do | :06:13. | :06:19. | |
you agree with that? Absolutely. It was a running joke when I worked at | :06:19. | :06:24. | |
Number Ten, I would always churned up, what about the great unreformed | :06:24. | :06:27. | |
public service, the police? Everyone else would look at me as | :06:27. | :06:30. | |
if I was off my head because of the problems politically about being | :06:30. | :06:34. | |
seen to take on the police. So actually acting the coalition are | :06:34. | :06:37. | |
right to be trying to reform the police, and everything we are | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
discussing now is about the new economic circumstances of austerity, | :06:40. | :06:44. | |
and I think the police may have been able to fight as hard a few | :06:44. | :06:48. | |
years ago, but now, just like the chief executive of RBS, we are | :06:48. | :06:51. | |
recognising we are in a different climate. If you look as though you | :06:51. | :06:54. | |
are unwilling to be inflexible and the face of the pain everyone is | :06:54. | :06:59. | |
suffering, you lose legitimacy. There is an irony that at the time | :06:59. | :07:02. | |
when conditions were no more benign, you argue it would have been hard | :07:02. | :07:06. | |
at... No question in my mind that one of the failings of New Labour | :07:06. | :07:10. | |
in government was that it did not take on the police. It was too | :07:10. | :07:14. | |
frightened, and that is because if you are left of centre, you feel | :07:14. | :07:19. | |
more vulnerable in terms of being tough on crime, yes. The emergence | :07:20. | :07:23. | |
of a German plan to send an EU official to Athens to oversee Greek | :07:23. | :07:27. | |
budget plans has highlighted the deep divisions that remain in | :07:27. | :07:30. | |
Europe over how to deal with their huge national debt. The Greeks have | :07:30. | :07:34. | |
rejected the idea, and they are still big questions about how | :07:34. | :07:37. | |
Greece and other stricken countries are going to resolve the problems. | :07:37. | :07:42. | |
A summer of EU leaders takes place today in Brussels. -- Summit. Once | :07:42. | :07:45. | |
again, they will be concentrating on the eurozone crisis and the | :07:45. | :07:49. | |
search for economic growth. They will also focus on bespoke union, | :07:49. | :07:54. | |
new deficit and debt rules for the single currency. Most member states | :07:54. | :07:58. | |
are expected to sign up to a new budget treaty, but not the UK. Back | :07:58. | :08:02. | |
in December, David Cameron shocked the rest of the EU by opting out of | :08:02. | :08:07. | |
negotiations for a fiscal pact. At the time, he highlighted the legal | :08:07. | :08:10. | |
difficulties of countries that signed the pact using EU | :08:10. | :08:14. | |
institutions like the European Court of Justice. But it is now | :08:14. | :08:19. | |
reported that he will allow the ECJ to oversee any agreement. Yesterday | :08:19. | :08:21. | |
the Work and Pensions Secretary, Iain Duncan Smith, made clear he | :08:22. | :08:28. | |
thought the veto was still in place. The Prime Minister vetoed, use of | :08:28. | :08:31. | |
the institutions, and he said that was because he had no guarantees | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
that what they were proposing would not damage the single market or, | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
for that matter, would cause problems to the financial sector. | :08:37. | :08:40. | |
We do not know what they are coming forward with yet, they have not | :08:40. | :08:44. | |
completed their treaty and are not anywhere near signing it. We do not | :08:44. | :08:49. | |
know everyone will go down that road with them. If with us now is | :08:49. | :08:52. | |
the Conservative MP Douglas Carswell and Liberal Democrat per | :08:52. | :08:57. | |
year Lord Oakeshott. Welcome to the programme. Hearing his position | :08:57. | :09:01. | |
there, is it in your understanding that David Cameron has decided he | :09:01. | :09:04. | |
is not going to block the institutions being used to | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
implement this new fiscal union? gather that is the case. I hoped to | :09:08. | :09:12. | |
be able to come on air and say this was something frightfully clever, | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
us going along with the idea that the other 26 members should form a | :09:15. | :09:19. | |
fiscal union, take the institutions with them, but I'm afraid to say | :09:19. | :09:21. | |
that the more I hear about the small print, the more it is | :09:21. | :09:25. | |
beginning to look as if it is back to business as usual, ministers and | :09:25. | :09:30. | |
mandarins making decisions. I think it underlines why it is vital now | :09:30. | :09:34. | |
that we have a referendum and let the people decide. I thought the | :09:34. | :09:37. | |
whole idea was that it would be a way of protecting Britain's | :09:37. | :09:41. | |
interests, otherwise what was the point of the veto? Indeed, I had | :09:41. | :09:48. | |
hoped to be able to say that there was a point,... Bad luck! If you | :09:48. | :09:51. | |
study the small print, it looks as if, I'm afraid to say, when you | :09:51. | :09:56. | |
leave it to ministers and mandarins, this is what happens, and it is | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
back to business as usual, deal- making in a backroom, the British | :09:59. | :10:03. | |
people treated with contempt. that why a Liberal Democrat has | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
gone on this trip to assist David Cameron? I thought you might find | :10:06. | :10:11. | |
it helpful because Iain Duncan Smith was not speaking for the | :10:11. | :10:13. | |
government yesterday, but I thought it might be helpful to check with | :10:13. | :10:18. | |
Number Ten. I like to be helpful where I can! That is very good of | :10:18. | :10:23. | |
you, Lord Oakeshott! I was told I was free to say that IDS was not in | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
line with the position and that is separate from the Prime Minister in | :10:26. | :10:30. | |
that view. I thought you would like to have that. Isn't that a rather | :10:30. | :10:35. | |
complicated way of handling European relations? Indeed, but | :10:35. | :10:44. | |
Iain Duncan Smith is a total and European. -- anti-European. I'm | :10:44. | :10:47. | |
pleased to say that David Cameron is starting to rein him in. I have | :10:47. | :10:50. | |
been watching what has been happening in Europe with great | :10:50. | :10:55. | |
interest for a long time, and we see these wrangles, and even I find | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
it too complicated. This shows why, at the end of the day, we need to | :10:59. | :11:03. | |
put this to the people in a straightforward referendum. What | :11:03. | :11:06. | |
should David Cameron actually do at this meeting? The last time he was | :11:06. | :11:11. | |
there, he walked out, and we now have people like ourselves | :11:11. | :11:14. | |
understanding something different to the Government's position. | :11:14. | :11:17. | |
should make it absolutely clear that the fiscal union will be | :11:17. | :11:20. | |
entirely separate from the European Union, and that if the rest of | :11:20. | :11:26. | |
Europe wants to spin off and joined it, great, too not involve us. | :11:26. | :11:31. | |
get a turn?! What we have seen here, and I feel sorry for Douglas | :11:31. | :11:35. | |
Carswell, who is a principled and two European, I feel we have seen | :11:35. | :11:39. | |
what a disastrous miscalculation it was by David Cameron to do that the | :11:39. | :11:44. | |
dough. -- anti-European. But it was popular. It ended up in a real mess. | :11:44. | :11:51. | |
What really matters now is that we do not block sensible measures that | :11:51. | :11:55. | |
are going on with the Europeans and the euro, where there is a real | :11:55. | :12:00. | |
crisis of jobs and the economy, and we should not have a dog in a | :12:00. | :12:05. | |
manger attitude. What about measures that are taken that affect | :12:05. | :12:08. | |
the single market, which we will now not be able to do anything | :12:08. | :12:12. | |
about? That is one of the big dangers, and we should be improving | :12:13. | :12:16. | |
the single market and getting free trade going again. A decade ago, we | :12:16. | :12:20. | |
had another Prime Minister from another party promising we would | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
have... I think they called at the Lisbon agenda, to make the most | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
competitive part of the global economy by 2010. How did that work | :12:27. | :12:31. | |
out? We are hearing the same rhetoric. I do not think these | :12:31. | :12:34. | |
mutual suicide pact of the European fiscal union is in our interests, | :12:34. | :12:39. | |
Cameron should keep us out. We are still, two years on, talking about | :12:40. | :12:43. | |
Greece and what to do about this country which, you know, could | :12:43. | :12:47. | |
default in a couple of months' time. Is it not feasible now to be | :12:47. | :12:50. | |
supportive of any bail-out plan when Greece has no chance for | :12:50. | :12:54. | |
growth? That is a separate issue where we would probably agree. I | :12:54. | :12:57. | |
have been saying for months and months, on this programme and to | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
anyone who would listen, that Greece has got to leave the euro, | :13:01. | :13:06. | |
has not to devalue. There is no way out for Greece. They went in at the | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
wrong exchange rate with figures could buy Goldman Sachs, and it is | :13:09. | :13:16. | |
not doing anyone any favours to pretend they can. Any senior | :13:16. | :13:19. | |
economists will tell you that Greece will have to devalue. | :13:19. | :13:23. | |
that is not happening at the moment. It is not the main point of what is | :13:23. | :13:27. | |
happening. Mathematics will drive against political delusion. Greece | :13:27. | :13:30. | |
will not stay in. The British government should get behind the | :13:30. | :13:34. | |
idea of defaulting on this unsustainable debt and the coupling | :13:34. | :13:38. | |
of the rope. Until they do that, our closest trading partners will | :13:39. | :13:42. | |
never return to prosperity. Withdrawal by stealth? We are | :13:42. | :13:47. | |
talking about kicking Greece out. Just generally in terms of the | :13:47. | :13:51. | |
position Douglas Carswell speaks about. It is not our decision, but | :13:51. | :13:55. | |
that is what the eurozone should do. This grand Cartesian design that | :13:55. | :13:57. | |
means that experts and technocrats have arranged the lives of millions | :13:57. | :14:04. | |
of Europeans has not worked out. Matthew Taylor, time to bale out? | :14:04. | :14:07. | |
The European politicians are doing the very best they can to handle | :14:07. | :14:11. | |
this problem that was not created solely by the European Union. It is | :14:11. | :14:14. | |
part of a bigger set of global issues. They have got massive | :14:14. | :14:17. | |
problems with deficit in America, which has nothing to do with the | :14:17. | :14:21. | |
European Union. I think what is interesting, apart from the idea of | :14:21. | :14:25. | |
Number Ten encouraging people to breathe against members of the | :14:25. | :14:31. | |
Cabinet, that didn't even happen in my time! This isn't even briefing, | :14:31. | :14:34. | |
it is putting Iain Duncan Smith back in his box, which I'm happy to | :14:34. | :14:39. | |
help with. It was inevitable that David Cameron was going to have to | :14:39. | :14:42. | |
go back into Europe and adopt a more combative attitude, absolutely | :14:42. | :14:46. | |
inevitable, because these are huge issues that affect our economy, and | :14:46. | :14:50. | |
the idea of standing aloof in order to satisfy the appetite of people | :14:50. | :14:55. | |
like Douglas Carswell or Iain Duncan Smith... Well, the voters! | :14:55. | :15:00. | |
For, to be honest, the voters at a point at which we need our great | :15:00. | :15:04. | |
minds to be resolving the issues in Europe. The idea that UK separate | :15:04. | :15:13. | |
It looked good in December and there was support, but now, | :15:13. | :15:17. | |
listening to Matthew Taylor... was gesture politics. The lesson to | :15:17. | :15:24. | |
draw is that the pro-European position is discredited. It is now | :15:24. | :15:28. | |
trust -- time to trust the people than in or out referendum. I see in | :15:28. | :15:31. | |
the Financial Times today that you are going on about all of these | :15:32. | :15:37. | |
people in Britain. He was a Tory Cabinet minister in Mrs Thatcher's | :15:37. | :15:44. | |
government. He's not a raving pinko. Briefly on the IMF, George Osborne | :15:44. | :15:49. | |
seems to have softened his stance. Do you get that feeling, in terms | :15:49. | :15:53. | |
of increasing Britain's contribution? I read different | :15:53. | :15:56. | |
briefs, given to different newspapers. If we are going to use | :15:56. | :16:00. | |
the IMF to do what it should do, to create new currencies to allow | :16:00. | :16:06. | |
Greece and others to quit the euro, I will happily vote for it. Lord | :16:06. | :16:09. | |
Oakeshott, Douglas Carswell, thank you very much. | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
The images of youngsters running a mock during the summer riots was | :16:12. | :16:16. | |
blamed by some politicians and commentators on poor parenting. But | :16:16. | :16:19. | |
could the politicians themselves be making life more difficult for | :16:19. | :16:24. | |
parents? A law passed in 2004 made it illegal for parents to smack | :16:24. | :16:28. | |
their children if it resulted in reddening of the skin. Tottenham MP | :16:28. | :16:31. | |
David Lammy said that the law makes it difficult for parents to | :16:31. | :16:36. | |
effectively punish their children. Is he right? Carol Walker is in the | :16:36. | :16:40. | |
Central Lobby with two MPs. David Lammy, a former schools minister, | :16:40. | :16:44. | |
has provoked quite a controversy by his comments suggesting that it was | :16:44. | :16:48. | |
a bit unfair for many of the parents in his constituency to be | :16:48. | :16:50. | |
told that they should not be smacking their children, many of | :16:51. | :16:54. | |
them felt that they would have their children perhaps taken away | :16:54. | :16:59. | |
by social workers if they did so. He feels that perhaps different | :16:59. | :17:04. | |
standards apply to middle-class parents. I'm joined by two MPs with | :17:04. | :17:09. | |
different views, Kevin Barron for Labour and Harriet Baldwin for the | :17:09. | :17:13. | |
Conservatives. Can I start with you, do you think that David Lammy has a | :17:13. | :17:17. | |
point? I think there is an issue about parents worrying about having | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
their children taken away by social workers. But if we ban smacking | :17:21. | :17:26. | |
altogether, like most of Europe, only four countries have not, they | :17:26. | :17:31. | |
would never reach the level of people protecting their child | :17:31. | :17:35. | |
against an open fire or running on to a road, they would never be any | :17:35. | :17:40. | |
reason to take children away or any form of prosecution. Harriet, does | :17:40. | :17:45. | |
he have a point? I think we need to send out a message that for loving | :17:45. | :17:49. | |
parents bringing up their children, there might be occasions when | :17:49. | :17:52. | |
smacking is an appropriate part of loving parental discipline. I | :17:52. | :17:56. | |
certainly think that the last thing you want your child answering back | :17:56. | :18:01. | |
and saying is, if you do that to me, I will take you to social services. | :18:01. | :18:06. | |
It's very difficult for the law to define loving discipline and | :18:06. | :18:10. | |
somebody that is going over the top. Do we not need a clear distinction, | :18:10. | :18:15. | |
as we have in law at the moment? think there is a clear distinction | :18:15. | :18:18. | |
in law at the moment. I think everyone would recognise the kind | :18:18. | :18:23. | |
of examples that Kevin is talking about. Your child runs into traffic, | :18:23. | :18:27. | |
they are very small, you bring them back in and you might give them a | :18:27. | :18:34. | |
short smack. As a parent, I have never smacked a child. But I think | :18:34. | :18:38. | |
it is a deterrent and you can warn your child that you can smack them | :18:39. | :18:42. | |
as well. If that were made illegal, I think that warning would not have | :18:42. | :18:47. | |
the same force. David Lammy seemed to be suggesting that this type of | :18:47. | :18:51. | |
attitude was at the root of the problems of indiscipline that may | :18:51. | :18:56. | |
have led to the riots. Does he have a point? I just don't see that what | :18:56. | :19:02. | |
happened in the riots... It was illegal, these were law-breakers. | :19:02. | :19:07. | |
Were they perhaps kids that had not had discipline at home? One talk | :19:07. | :19:11. | |
about discipline at home, we don't have corporal punishment in schools | :19:11. | :19:16. | |
now. When I went to school, they did. I got caned more than once | :19:16. | :19:20. | |
when I was at school. It didn't stop it. You know, it wasn't that | :19:20. | :19:24. | |
long ago when it was quite legal for people in this country to hit | :19:24. | :19:28. | |
their wives or servants. That has been stopped as well. I don't see | :19:28. | :19:31. | |
why children should not have the same protection in law as adults. | :19:31. | :19:37. | |
Of course, if an adult is going to do something dangerous, perhaps | :19:37. | :19:41. | |
with special needs, it would be right for you to stop them doing | :19:41. | :19:44. | |
that and you would be supported in the law. Reasonable chastisement, | :19:44. | :19:49. | |
nobody knows what it means, but you can still do that. Children should | :19:49. | :19:53. | |
have the same protection as you all right. I think there are wider | :19:53. | :19:58. | |
issues around discipline and some of the measures in the Education | :19:58. | :20:03. | |
Act. It was around giving headteachers the powers to expel | :20:03. | :20:07. | |
pupils without being overwritten. I think we need to work on that | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
responsibility, the discipline boundaries for our children. Adult | :20:12. | :20:17. | |
male role models are often important as well. Do you think | :20:17. | :20:21. | |
David Lammy has a point with this class point, that a lot of the | :20:22. | :20:24. | |
parents of Tuffers dates are worried about social workers moving | :20:24. | :20:30. | |
in, whereas middle-class parents are allowed to carry on giving six | :20:30. | :20:35. | |
of the best? I'd like to put money on that the kids involved in the | :20:35. | :20:39. | |
riots, about one in five of them under the age of 18 had been | :20:39. | :20:43. | |
smacked in their lives. I don't think it's got these things. We | :20:43. | :20:46. | |
shouldn't look excuses for law- breakers. Bringing up kids probably, | :20:46. | :20:53. | |
that is what you do. That is it for now. | :20:53. | :20:58. | |
On that issue, there were those that said it was a typical new | :20:58. | :21:02. | |
Labour initiative, was it? The use of force against children to punish | :21:02. | :21:06. | |
them has been banned in most parts of Europe. In a way, Britain was | :21:06. | :21:12. | |
catching up. I think it is a sense of Micro Management of people's | :21:12. | :21:17. | |
lives that people associated with New Labour. The point David Lammy | :21:17. | :21:21. | |
is making is not saying that because children were not smacked | :21:21. | :21:26. | |
they went and rioted, he's saying that parents feel confused and they | :21:26. | :21:28. | |
feel their authority is on the line because they are not sure what they | :21:28. | :21:32. | |
are allowed to do. This debate isn't really clearing it up. I | :21:32. | :21:36. | |
still think that the principle, that is that we should protect | :21:36. | :21:39. | |
children the same that we should protect anybody else from being | :21:39. | :21:43. | |
subject to physical violence, I think it is important. So the law | :21:43. | :21:48. | |
should not be relaxed, as David Lammy is suggesting? No, and it is | :21:48. | :21:53. | |
not clear how much you relax at full support level of violence? You | :21:53. | :21:57. | |
can restrain a child, a quick smack is probably not going to get you | :21:57. | :22:00. | |
into trouble. But it you are smacking until you leave a mark, | :22:01. | :22:08. | |
which lasts, that is probably undue violence. Now, how the corporate | :22:08. | :22:10. | |
world behaves itself is very topical at the moment. It has | :22:10. | :22:14. | |
become something of an obsession for politicians. Caring capitalism | :22:14. | :22:20. | |
is in, greed is out. A report by Matty Taylor's RSA argues that big | :22:20. | :22:24. | |
companies have a key role to play in the life of the communities they | :22:24. | :22:27. | |
operate in. But is it the business of business to go around doing | :22:27. | :22:31. | |
good? The B&Q store in Sutton. It is | :22:31. | :22:35. | |
where to come if you are doing up a house. Here, they are trying to | :22:35. | :22:39. | |
pull a makeover of capitalism. B&Q have worked with the Royal Society | :22:39. | :22:44. | |
of Arts on a report that insists that big business has a vital role | :22:44. | :22:47. | |
to play in building strong communities. That is right on trend. | :22:47. | :22:51. | |
All of the main parties say that capitalism has to be about people | :22:51. | :22:54. | |
as well as profits. The report is not due out for a couple of weeks | :22:54. | :22:58. | |
but we have had a sneak preview. The report says that businesses | :22:58. | :23:01. | |
should actively planned to make life better for communities they | :23:01. | :23:05. | |
operate in. They can set aside part of the store as a meeting-place for | :23:05. | :23:09. | |
local people. Government can help fund schemes where firms work to | :23:09. | :23:13. | |
boost the local economy and become what is known as community hopes. | :23:13. | :23:20. | |
That might sound a bit happy Class B. But what is in it for B&Q? | :23:20. | :23:25. | |
customers feel they are dealing with a company they can trust that | :23:25. | :23:29. | |
makes a positive contribution, they will reward it by shopping mall. We | :23:29. | :23:33. | |
have evidence in centres where we have training centres that | :23:33. | :23:36. | |
customers come back more often, they do more project and end up | :23:36. | :23:39. | |
spending more money. There is a hard business benefit to it, as | :23:39. | :23:43. | |
well as being a good neighbour. of which is great. But is it the | :23:43. | :23:47. | |
best way for business to do good? The corporate responsibility | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
movement has put a huge tax on customers. In order to prove their | :23:51. | :23:55. | |
social responsibility credentials, companies have to set up big | :23:55. | :24:01. | |
departments. They naturally want to make themselves even bigger. They | :24:01. | :24:05. | |
turn to lobbyists and so on. Everybody in lobbying has an | :24:05. | :24:08. | |
interest in building it up yet again. You end up with a huge | :24:08. | :24:12. | |
bureaucracy, paid for out of company funds. That means higher | :24:12. | :24:17. | |
prices for you and me. Funnily enough, B&Q's corporate | :24:17. | :24:21. | |
responsibility man did not approve of that analysis. What about the | :24:21. | :24:25. | |
idea that it is clever marketing rather than an image to do good? | :24:25. | :24:30. | |
think it is marketing and PR to an extent. But encouraging local | :24:30. | :24:33. | |
people to shop there is actually something which is pretty laudable. | :24:33. | :24:40. | |
It isn't -- but isn't changing the world a job for politicians? Eight | :24:40. | :24:43. | |
job of businesses to do good business and serve their customers. | :24:43. | :24:46. | |
If you can do civic good as part of that package, it is entirely | :24:46. | :24:50. | |
correct for business to do. I don't think it is solely the preserve of | :24:50. | :24:54. | |
government to do that. Business, community groups and individuals | :24:55. | :24:58. | |
have their parts to play. It's important that businesses should be | :24:58. | :25:02. | |
out there making money for owners, shareholders, including pension | :25:02. | :25:06. | |
funds and other people's investments. If they are making | :25:06. | :25:11. | |
good profits, paying high taxation, then we can have the debate about | :25:11. | :25:14. | |
six. Rather than trying to make business people do something that | :25:14. | :25:18. | |
they are not in a position to do. It seems these days that greed is | :25:18. | :25:22. | |
not good. You want big business to make a profit, but we also wanted | :25:22. | :25:27. | |
with a human face. But can we really have it all? Thank you for | :25:27. | :25:36. | |
shopping at B&Q... We are joined by the Guardian's Zoe | :25:36. | :25:39. | |
Williams and Matthew Taylor from the RSA. Picking up the point made | :25:39. | :25:43. | |
in the film, should and does this is just concentrate on making money, | :25:43. | :25:46. | |
bringing prices down and doing what they are supposed to do? This is | :25:47. | :25:52. | |
just a gimmick? Part of what we buy is a brand. We buy what the brand | :25:52. | :25:57. | |
represents to us. If companies engage with communities in | :25:57. | :26:01. | |
effective ways, if they employ local people that support other | :26:01. | :26:05. | |
local businesses, it contributes to the value that we have on that band. | :26:05. | :26:10. | |
It is in their interests to do good stuff in the community. Is it good | :26:10. | :26:13. | |
business to create a whole department that deals with it? | :26:13. | :26:20. | |
Somebody that his head of corporate responsibility? This is a myth. B&Q | :26:20. | :26:24. | |
array community store. Strengthening their relationship is | :26:24. | :26:27. | |
what their managers in all of their shops do. They don't need a | :26:27. | :26:31. | |
separate department. Isn't that what we want them to do? I don't | :26:31. | :26:35. | |
buy that we are paying in taxes for a corporate responsibility | :26:35. | :26:39. | |
department. You cannot talk about purchasing stuff as taxation on the | :26:39. | :26:43. | |
consumer. I am suspicious about the line that employing local people is | :26:43. | :26:48. | |
a service to them. All businesses employ people near them. That is | :26:48. | :26:53. | |
because it is good business. Often, decisions that companies make, | :26:53. | :26:58. | |
which are beneficial and profitable, are then dressed up as Big Society | :26:58. | :27:01. | |
initiatives. That is absurd and it also skews things as though they | :27:01. | :27:07. | |
are doing the community a favour. I don't think B&Q are doing them a | :27:07. | :27:12. | |
favour if they employ people nearby. I don't think companies are doing | :27:12. | :27:16. | |
people a favour when eight take people on as a work experienced | :27:16. | :27:20. | |
workers when they are not paying them. Across society, because of | :27:20. | :27:23. | |
austerity, we are in a position that the kind of things we want for | :27:23. | :27:26. | |
the world are not going to happen through public spending. The | :27:26. | :27:31. | |
economy is not growing. We need to squeeze more, with less. What we | :27:31. | :27:35. | |
have found is that stores are community pubs, where people come | :27:35. | :27:42. | |
together. That is not something that has been exploited. They found | :27:42. | :27:47. | |
that people didn't know much about DIY, so they started putting on DIY | :27:47. | :27:51. | |
classes. This increases people's skills and they buy more from B&Q. | :27:51. | :27:56. | |
It is tapping into latent capacity. I am not against DIY classes. That | :27:56. | :28:02. | |
would be good for me. Sainsbury's were asking their staff to identify | :28:02. | :28:05. | |
people they thought might be carers because of their buying patterns | :28:05. | :28:09. | |
and then give them leaflets to say, if you are a carer, this is | :28:10. | :28:13. | |
information for you. It is facilitating. Is there anything | :28:13. | :28:18. | |
wrong with it? You have to wonder if all transactions in society have | :28:18. | :28:21. | |
to be tied into financial transactions. B&Q is watching the | :28:21. | :28:27. | |
fact that people talk to each other in the B&Q, and then a pass to | :28:27. | :28:32. | |
become financial. If it cannot be, it has to be turned into marketing. | :28:32. | :28:38. | |
It is being turned into a value proposition. Saying, we are B&Q, we | :28:38. | :28:42. | |
are a big value proposition. I think it is cynical. We would argue | :28:42. | :28:47. | |
that companies would want to say they are doing well for society and | :28:47. | :28:52. | |
are also making money, rather than saying we are going to screw as | :28:52. | :28:57. | |
much out of society as we can. Marks & Spencer his heart out reach | :28:57. | :29:00. | |
programmes with ex criminals. That is valuable, because the state | :29:00. | :29:06. | |
cannot do that. In a way, they are filling a gap in the market? | :29:06. | :29:10. | |
state would never give you DIY lessons. But they might have an | :29:10. | :29:16. | |
outreach programme. Is it different to what is being proposed at B&Q? | :29:16. | :29:19. | |
People come into schools and give up their time voluntarily, isn't | :29:19. | :29:25. | |
that more valuable? That is an interesting point. At what point is | :29:25. | :29:28. | |
it distinguished between someone doing something valuable in a | :29:28. | :29:32. | |
school, and a company annexing parts of a public school for | :29:32. | :29:37. | |
advertising? There is a gap. If you can persuade stores to help fill it, | :29:37. | :29:40. | |
through apprenticeships or through opening up premises to community | :29:40. | :29:45. | |
groups, through financial people, that has to be a good thing. Nobody | :29:45. | :29:49. | |
says it's all sorts of the problems in the world. But it seems a more | :29:49. | :29:54. | |
modern idea of what capitalism should be. Zoe's point about an | :29:54. | :29:58. | |
extension of marketing, it is not going to be totally altruistic. | :29:58. | :30:02. | |
They will have all of their logos and... At the Griffi. Companies can | :30:02. | :30:07. | |
make different appeals. They can say, drinking our product, it will | :30:07. | :30:11. | |
get you very drunk and it is cheap, or they can say, work with us | :30:11. | :30:14. | |
because we get back to the community. It should probably be | :30:14. | :30:24. | |
:30:24. | :30:26. | ||
There is a busy week in the store, and to better to look ahead than | :30:26. | :30:30. | |
Anushka Asthana and Quentin Letts? Thank you both for joining us. | :30:30. | :30:35. | |
Quentin Letts, starting with you, just on RBS and Stephen has a's | :30:35. | :30:40. | |
bonus, has this been difficult? Huge relief now for David Cameron, | :30:40. | :30:44. | |
but has Ed Miliband has a bounce? And the jazz been difficult for | :30:44. | :30:53. | |
Cameron, yes, very awkward, so I think he will be very pleased that | :30:53. | :30:56. | |
he has leaked of the cliff and done the decent thing. The real story is | :30:56. | :31:00. | |
that Parliament is exerting a sense of moral shame. Very interesting, a | :31:00. | :31:04. | |
sign of a resurgent house of Commons partly, what is going on, | :31:04. | :31:07. | |
but for Ed Miliband to be doing all of that, I love the hypocrisy of | :31:08. | :31:11. | |
this because it was the government where he was part of the Cabinet | :31:11. | :31:14. | |
that arranged this deal in the first place. But hey, he is an | :31:14. | :31:19. | |
opposition now, so we can say what he wants! Cameron has mishandled it | :31:19. | :31:23. | |
quite badly, so he will be relieved that Hester is not going to take | :31:23. | :31:28. | |
this bonus. Anushka Asthana, a good weekend for Ed Miliband, is it good | :31:28. | :31:32. | |
enough? It certainly is a coup for Ed Miliband, some people are saying | :31:32. | :31:37. | |
it is the best hit that he has had so far, because the decision to | :31:37. | :31:39. | |
drop the bonus clearly came straight after Labour said they | :31:39. | :31:43. | |
would raise this in Parliament. I do not know whether they are going | :31:43. | :31:47. | |
to continue threatening to have debates every time we here are | :31:47. | :31:49. | |
their large bonus, but it will be interesting to see whether that | :31:49. | :31:56. | |
happens. Isn't that the point? What happens with other RBS executives? | :31:56. | :32:00. | |
It is still a big political problem. I think it is a problem, although | :32:00. | :32:03. | |
perhaps people will look at this and say, I do not want to be | :32:03. | :32:06. | |
vilified. I think Stephen Hester said that as one of the reasons for | :32:06. | :32:10. | |
not taking it, and we all saw what happened to Fred Goodwin before him. | :32:10. | :32:15. | |
But they will think harder before they go there in future. Looking at | :32:15. | :32:19. | |
Europe, we have been talking about David Cameron's position in Europe, | :32:19. | :32:23. | |
and it seems he will allow the institutions to be used in fiscal | :32:23. | :32:29. | |
union, a big U-turn? Not quite, but certainly a turn of sorts. Is | :32:29. | :32:33. | |
looking in his mirror, I think. The Conservative backbenchers will not | :32:33. | :32:36. | |
be happy about this, but they do not have any immediate opportunity | :32:36. | :32:40. | |
to have a go at him in the House of Commons. It may not be a problem | :32:40. | :32:43. | |
this week, although at PMQs there might be a bit of it. There is | :32:43. | :32:49. | |
certainly a hint that the greater the dough which we all went | :32:49. | :32:55. | |
palliative, except the BBC, maybe it was not such a telling point. -- | :32:55. | :33:00. | |
Hallelujah. As Douglas Carswell said, what was the point? What was | :33:00. | :33:06. | |
the point indeed? As far as you are concerned, what do you think David | :33:06. | :33:08. | |
Cameron needs to do now as far as the position in Europe is | :33:08. | :33:12. | |
concerned? There is this thing with Europe which is you go in all guns | :33:12. | :33:16. | |
blazing, this is the position you want to take, but the reality it's | :33:16. | :33:21. | |
when you're sitting around a table with the leaders of other countries. | :33:21. | :33:25. | |
-- reality hits. David Cameron must be feeling rather isolated. If he | :33:25. | :33:28. | |
were to go ahead and block the use of certain institutions from every | :33:28. | :33:32. | |
other country, I think he would become a bit of a pariah, and he | :33:32. | :33:36. | |
knows that. If I do not think that matters. If you are isolated in | :33:36. | :33:41. | |
Europe, it is great on the domestic scene, so he will be quite happy | :33:41. | :33:47. | |
about that. The story will be about Greece and their debt problems. | :33:47. | :33:50. | |
That will be much bigger in Europe than the story of Cameron. | :33:50. | :33:55. | |
return briefly to the lesser story of the coalition at David Cameron, | :33:55. | :33:58. | |
what about relations between the Labour Democrats and Conservatives | :33:58. | :34:03. | |
over Europe? It has been creaking quite a lot, but you get the | :34:03. | :34:06. | |
impression the Tories have been giving Clegg one or two nice little | :34:06. | :34:11. | |
things to do, his announcement on aspirations for the tax policy, you | :34:11. | :34:14. | |
got the impression that Cameron was trying to boost to make it. There | :34:14. | :34:19. | |
has been a little bit of rebuilding going on. The Tory backbenchers | :34:19. | :34:22. | |
will not be pleased about that either, but Carmen is ahead in the | :34:22. | :34:27. | |
opinion polls possibly, he has got a bit of political capital, and he | :34:27. | :34:31. | |
seems to be spending it. -- Cameron. In terms of policing, do you feel | :34:31. | :34:35. | |
that Theresa May has been under pressure in terms of giving the | :34:35. | :34:39. | |
impression that the coalition is still strong on crime? I think that | :34:39. | :34:43. | |
one of the most effective members of the opposition front bench has | :34:43. | :34:45. | |
been Yvette Cooper on the issue of policing, and they knew that this | :34:45. | :34:49. | |
was an issue that was really going to hit the Government hard. Every | :34:49. | :34:53. | |
time they have bought out things about police cuts, Theresa May has | :34:53. | :34:57. | |
been under pressure to take action on that front. Has she done enough, | :34:57. | :35:01. | |
Quentin Letts? She might have done. I'm not sure that Yvette Cooper has | :35:01. | :35:06. | |
done too brilliantly, she is all right, but she is very much helped | :35:06. | :35:10. | |
by the coppers, there are very protective of their own patch, and | :35:10. | :35:14. | |
they have been militants against Theresa May. Today's announcement, | :35:14. | :35:18. | |
I would not put much by. It is only about some pilot ideas, and I think | :35:18. | :35:23. | |
it is probably being dressed up a bit much. Thank you very much. | :35:24. | :35:27. | |
Now, you can almost hear the sighs of relief across government last | :35:27. | :35:32. | |
night as the TV executive of RBS decided that he would not after all | :35:32. | :35:37. | |
take the million pounds in shares he was awarded this here. As the | :35:37. | :35:40. | |
chief executive of RBS, his bonus was always going to be a subject | :35:40. | :35:45. | |
for public scrutiny, and that most public sector workers facing a pay | :35:45. | :35:48. | |
freeze and the RBS share price falling 37% in the last 12 months, | :35:48. | :35:51. | |
any payout was going to be controversial. Originally it was | :35:51. | :35:56. | |
reported they wanted to give Stephen Hester shares worth about | :35:56. | :35:59. | |
�1.6 million. That figure was reduced to just under �1 million | :35:59. | :36:03. | |
when the announcement was made last Thursday. Supposedly that was after | :36:03. | :36:06. | |
intervention from the government. But pressure for him to give up the | :36:06. | :36:10. | |
bonus mounted, and Labour said they would call for a vote in the House | :36:10. | :36:13. | |
of Commons. He was apparently worried that he had become a pariah, | :36:13. | :36:17. | |
so he is going away empty-handed, apart from his �1.2 million salary, | :36:18. | :36:21. | |
of course. But there are reports that investment bankers at RBS are | :36:21. | :36:25. | |
still in line for a total of �500 million, and even Stephen Hester | :36:25. | :36:28. | |
could end up with a further award under a separate long-term | :36:28. | :36:32. | |
incentive plan. Is this the end of the row, or will the issue run and | :36:32. | :36:38. | |
run? I have been joined by three MPs for the rest of the programme, | :36:38. | :36:44. | |
Amber Rudd, Fiona O'Donnell and Gordon Birtwistle. Also here to | :36:44. | :36:49. | |
talk about the bonus, in case the three MPs agree, is Allister Heath, | :36:49. | :36:54. | |
the editor of City AM. I am sure they will all gang up on you. | :36:55. | :36:59. | |
don't mind! Thank you to Matthew Taylor, a previous guest. There is | :36:59. | :37:03. | |
consensus this was the right thing to do. Which means I do not | :37:03. | :37:06. | |
understand why the government agreed to this in the first place, | :37:06. | :37:08. | |
they should have blocked it out right. We are in a weird situation | :37:09. | :37:13. | |
where people are saying, yes, this is your bonus but do not take it. | :37:13. | :37:16. | |
If the government did not want him to take a bonus, they should have | :37:16. | :37:20. | |
blocked it as a majority shareholder. They said there was a | :37:20. | :37:23. | |
risk that the board would walk, that Stephen Hester would go, they | :37:23. | :37:27. | |
felt that was better. Is that a myth? I think it is a perfectly | :37:27. | :37:30. | |
plausible explanation and a good reason to give him the bonus, but | :37:30. | :37:33. | |
in that case they should have defended it. They were trying to | :37:33. | :37:38. | |
have their cake and eat it. They would give in it but they did not | :37:38. | :37:40. | |
believe he should take it. I do not think they cover themselves with | :37:40. | :37:46. | |
glory, but nobody has. Labour, when a nationalised the Bank, called | :37:46. | :37:50. | |
Hester in to rescue the bank and told him that it would be run like | :37:50. | :37:53. | |
a commercial organisation with private sector pay and so on. Now | :37:54. | :37:58. | |
everybody is making a U-turn honest and say, look, it should not be run | :37:58. | :38:01. | |
like a private company, it should be run like a social enterprise, | :38:01. | :38:05. | |
lending more at doing this sort of stuff. And people should be paid | :38:05. | :38:10. | |
like in the public sector. Like a social enterprise, is that really | :38:10. | :38:14. | |
the case? Aren't the measures for success the share price, lending an | :38:14. | :38:17. | |
up to small businesses? That must at being part of the job spec. Lot | :38:17. | :38:22. | |
of people have lost their jobs at RBS. By those measures, the City | :38:22. | :38:26. | |
may said he has done a good job, but in those terms he has not. | :38:26. | :38:30. | |
the share price issue, that is unfair, because you need to look at | :38:30. | :38:35. | |
that over a longer period of time. It is too short term to look at a | :38:35. | :38:38. | |
one-year share price. In terms of lending, that was not in his | :38:38. | :38:42. | |
original job description. That was a late a policy change. I think | :38:42. | :38:47. | |
this whole thing is a giant mess, and to be the only issue that | :38:47. | :38:50. | |
matters is how taxpayers will get their money back, how people who | :38:50. | :38:53. | |
are put billions of pounds into their RBS going to get their money | :38:53. | :39:00. | |
back. Don't you help or hinder that? I suspect it will hinder it. | :39:00. | :39:04. | |
That will be hopeless, if that happens. He is quite right in | :39:04. | :39:09. | |
saying that his bank owes the UK taxpayer something in the region of | :39:09. | :39:12. | |
�50 billion. I think the most urgent thing that Hester needs to | :39:12. | :39:16. | |
do is get the bank to a position where the share price matches what | :39:16. | :39:20. | |
we are owed and we can sell it back to the private sector and get the | :39:20. | :39:23. | |
taxpayers' money back to and vested in what goes on. Until that happens, | :39:23. | :39:28. | |
he should never get a bonus? I am not saying that at all. The | :39:28. | :39:32. | |
directors decide whether he has a bonus. They decided he should get | :39:32. | :39:36. | |
one. Yes, indeed. If David Cameron wants to sack all the directors and | :39:36. | :39:41. | |
replace them with directors that will do what David Cameron says, | :39:41. | :39:46. | |
then he could do that, but it would create chaos within the bank and | :39:46. | :39:50. | |
the sector. To me, the most important thing is to get our money | :39:50. | :39:57. | |
back. �50 billion is that there. He needs to get it back. But isn't the | :39:57. | :40:00. | |
biggest problem actually that the action that the government was | :40:00. | :40:04. | |
prepared to take could never match the rhetoric that they have been | :40:04. | :40:08. | |
spouting over the past year or so? They never intended to block it in | :40:08. | :40:10. | |
that sense. They should never have given the impression that they | :40:10. | :40:15. | |
could or would. There was an inconsistency in a way that he was | :40:15. | :40:18. | |
treated and the way he was appointed. In 2008, he was brought | :40:18. | :40:21. | |
in, remember he had nothing to do with the bank that was failed, he | :40:21. | :40:24. | |
was brought in to put the band right, and it was agreed his | :40:24. | :40:28. | |
contract and payments would be agreed by the board. So it was a | :40:28. | :40:32. | |
myth to say that it was Labour who actually made up the contract, that | :40:32. | :40:36. | |
he would get these awards, it was discretionary. Labour agreed the | :40:36. | :40:40. | |
contract, which was that the board would agree it. What was not | :40:40. | :40:45. | |
proposed was that there would be a public sector job with a fixed | :40:45. | :40:51. | |
salary. That was not agree. It was treated as a proper bank, where the | :40:51. | :40:56. | |
board would agree is pay. When the board agreed this pay, it was | :40:56. | :41:01. | |
agreed it was way too much. What would have been acceptable to you? | :41:01. | :41:04. | |
Well, I'm delighted that Steve has decided not to take the bonus, it | :41:04. | :41:09. | |
is the right decision, and I think the government taking the position | :41:09. | :41:13. | |
that the board has allocated the bonus but we hope he will not take | :41:13. | :41:17. | |
it... That is a weak position, isn't it? They should have just | :41:17. | :41:21. | |
blocked it. No, because then you have a situation where you might | :41:21. | :41:24. | |
have the boardwalk out and Stephen Hester walking out. He is doing a | :41:24. | :41:30. | |
good job... Then he should get the bonus! I want him to recognise that | :41:30. | :41:33. | |
he is paid well, and even though he is entitled to the bonus because of | :41:34. | :41:36. | |
the contract on the last government, he is not going to take it because | :41:36. | :41:41. | |
he wants to complete the job at a lower pay. What about other bonuses | :41:41. | :41:43. | |
at RBS? What should happen to people within the investment arm | :41:43. | :41:48. | |
who are said to have big bonuses, bigger than Stephen Hester's? | :41:48. | :41:52. | |
is a question for David Cameron. What is the Labour position on | :41:52. | :41:57. | |
that? Can I reply to what am I said? There is a limit to how many | :41:57. | :42:01. | |
things his government can blame on the previous government. The Prime | :42:01. | :42:04. | |
Minister said on the 19th and January, when he was asked if he | :42:04. | :42:09. | |
would block the �1 million bonus, he said the short answer is yes, | :42:09. | :42:12. | |
and yet he did not take action in this case. He shrugged his | :42:12. | :42:17. | |
shoulders. To some extent, we have had the Stephen Hester and, if you | :42:17. | :42:21. | |
like, and is not taking the bonus, and Labour will try to take credit | :42:21. | :42:28. | |
for that, rightly or wrongly. But what about other RBS executives? | :42:28. | :42:33. | |
Should they also forgo their bonuses? Well, George Osborne, when | :42:33. | :42:37. | |
he presented the Merlin projects to Parliament, he said that one of the | :42:37. | :42:42. | |
tests would be lending to SMEs, and in the third quarter are plastic, | :42:42. | :42:47. | |
are this did not meet that target. I think we need to listen to the | :42:47. | :42:51. | |
public, and this has been the main mistake of the government, they're | :42:51. | :42:54. | |
out of touch with public opinion. The next round is not going to be | :42:54. | :42:57. | |
about RBS executives but the hundreds of investment bankers who | :42:57. | :43:02. | |
are paid large salaries, and that is an issue. We cannot have a | :43:02. | :43:05. | |
nationalised investment bank. Unfortunately, whatever decisions | :43:05. | :43:08. | |
will be taken for political reasons, shutting down investment bank or | :43:08. | :43:16. | |
selling it cheaply, it will hurt the taxpayer. For political reasons, | :43:16. | :43:20. | |
not to maximise the amount of money paid back to the taxpayers, that is | :43:20. | :43:25. | |
my big fear. The taxpayers will lose because of short-term politics. | :43:25. | :43:29. | |
The taxpayer will not thank you if that is what happens. The taxpayer | :43:29. | :43:33. | |
as an expectation that we see some Venice introduced into the system. | :43:33. | :43:36. | |
The fact that these people are still in a job is because the | :43:36. | :43:40. | |
public bail out the bank in the first place. Yes. What would help | :43:41. | :43:45. | |
us if we had representation from the workforce perhaps. | :43:45. | :43:48. | |
workforce in this context of people earning millions of pounds, because | :43:48. | :43:52. | |
you are talking about ordinary traders and so on. I do not think | :43:52. | :43:58. | |
RBS should have been bailed out. We are at a stage when politics, when | :43:58. | :44:02. | |
it comes to try to extract value back, that is the real issue. | :44:02. | :44:07. | |
you say to that, Gordon Birtwistle? Is it fair that Stephen Hester does | :44:07. | :44:10. | |
not take his bonus but other members of the investment arm of | :44:10. | :44:16. | |
RBS do? Is it fair that Barclays chief executive could get a bonus | :44:16. | :44:20. | |
of up to �10 million? It is one of those words that is bandied about, | :44:20. | :44:25. | |
fairness. Or of these people have contracts that if they do a certain | :44:25. | :44:28. | |
thing, they get paid a set amount of money. Barclays is nothing to do | :44:28. | :44:31. | |
with the government. But they benefited hugely from the measures | :44:31. | :44:35. | |
that the government to have the time. Well, indeed, but the people | :44:35. | :44:41. | |
in work for them have contracts, and they create wealth for the bank. | :44:41. | :44:45. | |
Now, I agree with Vince Cable. They should be broken up, we should not | :44:45. | :44:49. | |
have banks that are too big to fail. They should be broken up so that | :44:49. | :44:54. | |
the people in the casino banking side go off on their own and stand | :44:54. | :44:58. | |
by their own failures or successes. The banks that we are concerned | :44:58. | :45:00. | |
about, high-street banks, the banks that deal with normal people in the | :45:00. | :45:05. | |
street, they are the ones that we need to run properly. At the end of | :45:05. | :45:10. | |
the day, we have got to get back our �50 billion that we are owed by | :45:11. | :45:18. | |
Should Vince Cable have come out more strongly and said they are | :45:18. | :45:22. | |
going to block the bonus? At the end of the day, the board of | :45:22. | :45:25. | |
directors decide the bonus. could have made a statement? | :45:25. | :45:29. | |
could have made a statement, it is no good making a statement that you | :45:29. | :45:34. | |
cannot carry through. The whole board would have probably resigned. | :45:34. | :45:38. | |
Stephen Hester would have resigned. Do you think he will walk anyway? | :45:38. | :45:42. | |
think there is a good chance. The situation is unsustainable. There | :45:42. | :45:46. | |
is no way he can be paid a bonus again, regardless of what has been | :45:46. | :45:51. | |
agreed or what is in his contract. There will be a big row about the | :45:51. | :45:58. | |
investment banking division. We would end up with civil servants | :45:58. | :46:02. | |
running the RBS, and that would be a disaster for the taxpayer. | :46:02. | :46:06. | |
agree, it would be a disaster. At the moment, it is the best possible | :46:06. | :46:09. | |
world, he is not taking a bonus and he is staying on. | :46:10. | :46:13. | |
The referendum on Scottish independence is not for two years, | :46:13. | :46:16. | |
but battle lines are already taking shape. Ed Miliband entered the fray | :46:16. | :46:20. | |
this morning, telling an audience in Glasgow that he is prepared to | :46:20. | :46:24. | |
go toe-to-toe with Alex Salmond to argue the case for the survival of | :46:24. | :46:29. | |
the United Kingdom. Here he is, speaking earlier. What is the most | :46:29. | :46:35. | |
urgent task facing us? Putting up a boarder cross the A1 and the M74? | :46:35. | :46:41. | |
Or the task of creating a more equal, fair and just society? I say, | :46:41. | :46:45. | |
let's confront the real divide in Britain. Not between Scotland and | :46:45. | :46:52. | |
the rest of the United Kingdom, but between the haves and have-nots. | :46:52. | :46:57. | |
I'm joint from Inverness by John Finney. Welcome to the programme. A | :46:57. | :47:01. | |
message that will chime with Scottish voters? It is very clear | :47:01. | :47:06. | |
that Ed Miliband has no message for the Scottish voters. He is at an | :47:06. | :47:10. | |
all-time low poll rating, and the Scottish people are not going to | :47:10. | :47:14. | |
take lectures from a man whose party offered her as cuts deeper | :47:14. | :47:19. | |
and more savage than Margaret Thatcher. We are in favour of | :47:19. | :47:23. | |
social justice and we will work to achieve that, not just within | :47:23. | :47:26. | |
Scotland but elsewhere. But lectures from the Labour leader? I | :47:26. | :47:32. | |
don't pig so. The question, as proposed, it is designed to elicit | :47:32. | :47:38. | |
a Yes? I would hope so, yes. Agreeing that Scotland should be | :47:38. | :47:42. | |
independent, rather than saying independent or leaving the United | :47:42. | :47:47. | |
Kingdom. Why did you say it as it is? The referendum will follow the | :47:47. | :47:52. | |
highest terms of international law. I am sure it will, but could you | :47:52. | :47:56. | |
answer the question? I am trying to answer the question. The reality is | :47:56. | :48:00. | |
that the advice is that it is a clear and concise question. It is | :48:00. | :48:03. | |
the question the Unionist parties have been asking us to ask. That is | :48:03. | :48:08. | |
what we are going to do. Will the UK Electoral Commission have a veto | :48:08. | :48:15. | |
over the question? Why would they? Alex Salmond has conceded that it | :48:15. | :48:20. | |
will have a role in assessing the questions. Who will have the final | :48:20. | :48:23. | |
say on the wording? I think the whole tone of the question suggests | :48:23. | :48:29. | |
a misunderstanding about the situation. The Scottish people gave | :48:29. | :48:34. | |
a clear indication in May of their wishes, with unprecedented support | :48:34. | :48:38. | |
to my party. That is recognised by other parties in the parliament. We | :48:38. | :48:42. | |
have a wholesale change whereby none of the parties in the Scottish | :48:42. | :48:46. | |
Parliament accept that the status quo is acceptable. All of them what | :48:46. | :48:50. | |
additional powers. The question will be outlined by the First | :48:50. | :48:55. | |
Minister and it will subscribe to the highest possible terms of | :48:55. | :48:58. | |
international electoral law. are saying the Electoral | :48:58. | :49:02. | |
Commission's role in terms of wording is minimal? I have answered | :49:02. | :49:06. | |
to say that there will be no issue with legality or indeed the merit | :49:06. | :49:10. | |
of the question, which quite simply could not be more straight forward. | :49:10. | :49:14. | |
The issue of devo-max is one that seems to be preying on people's | :49:14. | :49:19. | |
minds. In terms of civic Scotland, as Alex Salmond has talked about, | :49:19. | :49:24. | |
is that the only option in terms of getting a devo-max style question | :49:24. | :49:28. | |
on to the ballot paper? It is a peculiar situation. The reality of | :49:28. | :49:33. | |
the situation is that the Scottish government clearly is in favour of | :49:33. | :49:36. | |
independence. There is a significant voice, and I have | :49:36. | :49:40. | |
already alluded to the other parties wanting additional powers, | :49:40. | :49:44. | |
that the somewhere between the status quo and full independence. | :49:44. | :49:49. | |
We have a peculiar situation where the Unionist parties on one hand | :49:49. | :49:54. | |
appear to be advocating that, but see no role for it in the | :49:54. | :49:58. | |
referendum. The First Minister has said that we are nationalists, but | :49:58. | :50:02. | |
also Democrats. He will listen and take great heed of what comes back | :50:02. | :50:06. | |
as a result of the consultation process, which is ongoing. Thank | :50:06. | :50:12. | |
you for joining us. Fiona, no lectures from Ed Miliband or Labour. | :50:12. | :50:17. | |
That is because Labour took Scotland for granted and they | :50:17. | :50:20. | |
deserve the lack of support they are getting? Ed really cannot win. | :50:21. | :50:24. | |
On the one hand, the SNP say they want to move the debate on to | :50:24. | :50:28. | |
substantive issues. When he goes up to do exactly that, to talk about | :50:28. | :50:33. | |
the big challenges that we are facing in Scotland, then he is | :50:33. | :50:37. | |
accused... The question I would like to have asked John Finney is | :50:37. | :50:41. | |
why it wasn't devo-max in their manifesto, as a commitment to be | :50:41. | :50:44. | |
part of the referendum? The only reason they are pushing the issue | :50:44. | :50:48. | |
now is because they are worried they will not get the support. | :50:48. | :50:52. | |
has been widely debated. Let's get back to the substance of the issue. | :50:52. | :50:56. | |
Why is it and -- Ed Miliband talking about the substance of a | :50:56. | :50:59. | |
natural social justice? Why not talk about the economic | :50:59. | :51:05. | |
implications? Why doesn't he go on hard finances? I think that was the | :51:05. | :51:08. | |
right thing for Ed to go on. The fact that we are politically | :51:09. | :51:13. | |
different from Scotland, that we only elect one Tory member of | :51:13. | :51:17. | |
parliament, there is more of a sense of egalitarian society in | :51:17. | :51:22. | |
Scotland. These are the issues that Scottish people are concerned about. | :51:22. | :51:27. | |
Do you think Labour has done enough in Scotland? In terms of... | :51:27. | :51:34. | |
terms of its heartland. Clearly not, that was the message we were sent | :51:34. | :51:39. | |
in the elections. We accept that lesson. Part of today is about | :51:39. | :51:43. | |
seeing the real challenges and -- the challengers are best met with | :51:43. | :51:49. | |
Scotland within the UK. They are better equipped than the | :51:49. | :51:52. | |
Conservatives, who feel it is better to keep quiet in case | :51:52. | :51:56. | |
anything else pushes them into the arms of Alex Salmond? We are not | :51:56. | :52:01. | |
very good at keeping quiet. It is a great loss for us and Scotland that | :52:01. | :52:04. | |
there is only one Conservative MP. But we do need to lead on the | :52:04. | :52:11. | |
business of selling the union to Scotland. Ed Miliband's speech, | :52:11. | :52:15. | |
historically around the likes of Clement Attlee, that put it into an | :52:15. | :52:20. | |
historical perspective. I hope we can win the battle by selling | :52:20. | :52:24. | |
Scotland to England, as well as England to Scotland. Your | :52:24. | :52:29. | |
constituents, what they like Scotland to stay or go? I would say | :52:29. | :52:34. | |
they have not thought about it. At the moment they are thinking about | :52:34. | :52:37. | |
what the Government is doing and what goes on with the economy. We | :52:37. | :52:42. | |
get lots of the males saying it is time for Scotland to go. I think | :52:42. | :52:47. | |
that is exactly why Alex Salmond is making this such a long, drawn-out | :52:47. | :52:51. | |
campaign. All of their politics are about division. He wants to create | :52:51. | :52:57. | |
as many divisions as he can before autumn 2014. What do you think the | :52:57. | :53:00. | |
Liberal Democrats should be doing? Having lost out in Scotland, they | :53:00. | :53:07. | |
are in a very weak position. agree with Amber. We have to keep | :53:07. | :53:11. | |
the union, I agree with that totally. I also think we should | :53:11. | :53:15. | |
have this referendum sooner, rather than later. I think it is causing a | :53:15. | :53:19. | |
lot of problems to people wanting to invest in Scotland. The critical | :53:19. | :53:24. | |
thing to me is that it has to be a decisive election. It has to be yes | :53:24. | :53:27. | |
or no, to throw other things on the ballot paper would confuse people. | :53:27. | :53:33. | |
It is not acceptable. Who should lead the Unionist campaign? I think | :53:33. | :53:37. | |
there is room for everybody. That is the difference. The nationalist | :53:37. | :53:41. | |
campaign has a man Who Would Be King of Scotland, as he was seen in | :53:41. | :53:45. | |
the papers this weekend. There are people from civic Scotland, all | :53:45. | :53:55. | |
walks of life, the businesswoman throwing her hat in the ring, our | :53:55. | :53:59. | |
politics are about building consensus. The SNP had never been | :53:59. | :54:04. | |
good at working with others. Well, you have until 2014 to do it. | :54:04. | :54:08. | |
needs to be before them. There is so much confusion in Scotland, | :54:08. | :54:12. | |
firstly about the time being spent on it and also about what is going | :54:12. | :54:16. | |
on the ballot paper. They cannot have es, no or something else like | :54:16. | :54:21. | |
devo-max. I have to have yet honour, if they want devo-max they can | :54:21. | :54:26. | |
negotiate with the British government. We all agree that the | :54:26. | :54:29. | |
Scottish maybe should have more powers, but I don't agree with | :54:29. | :54:32. | |
independents. The first in a series of films | :54:32. | :54:40. | |
demystifying sometimes arcane and mystifying procedures in Parliament. | :54:40. | :54:44. | |
This is where public broadcasting is at its finest, as my absent | :54:44. | :54:54. | |
:54:54. | :54:54. | ||
partner likes to say. Let's start Adjournment debate. These are | :54:55. | :55:00. | |
strange little to debates of sparse significance in law-making process, | :55:00. | :55:03. | |
but they allow a parliamentarian to let off steam about an issue that | :55:03. | :55:07. | |
he or she might feel strongly about, normally from a constituency point | :55:07. | :55:12. | |
of view. Hospital closures, road repairs, local industry expansion | :55:12. | :55:16. | |
or job losses. These are the sorts of things that MPs will choose to | :55:16. | :55:20. | |
talk about in adjournment debates and get ministers to reply to. That | :55:20. | :55:25. | |
is useful. The question is that the house does now a gym. Mr Steve | :55:25. | :55:30. | |
Baker. Thank you, a huge pleasure this evening to address the future | :55:31. | :55:36. | |
of the Royal British Legion hall. Seagulls are part of the fabric of | :55:36. | :55:39. | |
seaside Britain. A historically, other than following the plough, | :55:39. | :55:43. | |
they have kept themselves to the coast. In recent years they have | :55:44. | :55:48. | |
moved inland. It is an issue that has brought together an | :55:48. | :55:53. | |
extraordinary coalition of local residents and organisations, united | :55:53. | :55:56. | |
in their concern to maintain pedestrian access through our | :55:56. | :56:01. | |
station. Adjournment debates last half an hour and it happens at the | :56:01. | :56:05. | |
end of every day's session in the House of Commons. You get an | :56:05. | :56:09. | |
adjournment debate by putting your name into a lucky draw and sending | :56:09. | :56:13. | |
it off to the Speaker's office, hoping for the best. Adjournment | :56:13. | :56:17. | |
debates do not tend to draw much of a gate, to use the football term. | :56:17. | :56:22. | |
But they forced right all -- Whitehall to come to a conclusion | :56:22. | :56:27. | |
and tell the MP what it is. They also have the adjournment debates | :56:27. | :56:30. | |
in a House of Lords, but they call them Questions For Short Debate. | :56:30. | :56:34. | |
Dean House of Lords, they go on for an hour-and-a-half. They can't do | :56:34. | :56:40. | |
anything for a short time. They may seem piffling, but they can lead to | :56:40. | :56:45. | |
moments of history. May 1940, the war is going badly at the House of | :56:45. | :56:48. | |
Commons adjourns of a motion concerning the prosecution of the | :56:48. | :56:54. | |
war in Norway. As a result of the debate, the Government falls. All | :56:54. | :57:02. | |
because of a little adjournment motion. Adjournment debates are a | :57:02. | :57:06. | |
problem for ministers. All the more reason to like them. The ministers | :57:06. | :57:10. | |
have to stay until the end of the parliamentary day. That any means | :57:10. | :57:14. | |
about 10:30pm nowadays. In the old days it could mean waited until | :57:14. | :57:18. | |
dawn. They also did a highly personal nature to the | :57:18. | :57:23. | |
parliamentary day. An individual MP can wrap himself in a particular | :57:23. | :57:28. | |
issue. That is great. Adjournment debates also provide a bit of | :57:28. | :57:38. | |
:57:38. | :57:38. | ||
variety. And we all need that, Are they really worthwhile? | :57:38. | :57:42. | |
Definitely. They are excellent tool for backbenchers to do. You can | :57:42. | :57:45. | |
hold a Minister to account, get answers to your question. The first | :57:45. | :57:50. | |
time I did what, I was surprised to find myself almost the only person | :57:50. | :57:54. | |
in the chamber. That is not very encouraging! The minister or | :57:55. | :57:57. | |
Secretary of State has to answer and you get a full 15 minutes of | :57:57. | :58:02. | |
them having to answer. It is a pick before getting a real answer. | :58:02. | :58:06. | |
Quentin Letts has to go back to 1940 to find one that had that much | :58:06. | :58:11. | |
impact, it doesn't seem like they have much effect? It can for the | :58:11. | :58:17. | |
people you represent. constituents, yes. I spoke about a | :58:17. | :58:20. | |
case about disability living allowance, where I cannot get an | :58:20. | :58:24. | |
answer from the DWP. It was a way to bring the minister to the | :58:24. | :58:30. | |
chamber and get that answer. Just a consensus, it should stay? I add a | :58:30. | :58:34. | |
new MP, and I agree. That is all for today. Thanks to our guests and | :58:34. | :58:38. | |
all of those I forgot to thank during the programme. Our guest | :58:39. | :58:42. | |
tomorrow is educationalist Toby Young. If you have anything to ask | :58:42. | :58:49. |