10/02/2012 Daily Politics


10/02/2012

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He says it's time for David Cameron to drop or at least emasculate the

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health reform Bill or risk disaster at the next election.

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We will be joined live by health Minister.

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Should we ignore the rulings of European judges and kick Abu Qatada

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out of the country? All three main parties want him

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deported. But the European Court is more worried about his human rights.

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Labour's leader in the Lords says Nick Clegg and David Cameron should

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drop their plans to reform the House of Lords. Helpful advice or a

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sraeled threat? We will ask her.

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And, how prepared are we for is worried the Government hasn't

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learned the lessons. All that coming newspaper the next

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will see this on no other channel, for which the other channels are

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grateful. With me Andrew Pierce and the Guardian's Zoe Williams. I

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don't know if you know, it's Andrew's birthday. Happy birthday.

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I will go easy on you. 24 again! Thank you so much.

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First, let's talk about bank bonuses, why not, we seem to do it

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every day. Barclays has published its full-year results and given

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details of bonuses handed out to staff. The bank, whose chief

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executive is Bob diamond, he's reported a 3% fall in profits to a

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mere �5.9 billion for last year. Mr Diamond says the total bonus pool

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for the group is also down by 25%. tell ITV what he was going to do

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with it either. There are reports that he is entitled to arpbtd --

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take all that remains to be seen. Barclays not owned by the state.

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so we don't have any call to give them a hard time one way or the

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other. I wonder, still benefiting from the implicit state guarantee

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it won't go bust. The problem is, I mean, if you want to talk logically,

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Barclays will say we never had a bail-out, we went to the Saudis.

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The Qataris. We are fine, let us get on with our own business. As

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soon as you start having these bonuses and everybody scrutinising

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them carefully, people will come through your business practice with

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a fine toothcomb and there is no large business in the country that

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hasn't benefited in some way, either from the financial

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underwriting of the Government, or from low wages which are

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supplemented or from a whole raft of things. You know, so basically,

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it's a toxic issue, it will be impossible for a bank to take what

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a member of public would think was matter for the shareholders and the

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company. But we just point out that if he gets �1 million bonus, we the

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taxpayer will get �520,000 of it. Cameron is not going to do that.

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Why doesn't he, we get more hapb hapb half -- more hapb half the

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bonus. Ed Miliband made the speech last night reminding people that

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guarantee, therefore, we all as taxpayers have a stake in the bank

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and they should pay what is seen as reasonable. I had a wonderful

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letter from a reader who had written to Lord Ash, head of BP in

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1995 complaining about his bonus bonuses so they can buy wonderful

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things and go on wonderful holidays. That may seem disproportionate to

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you but I can assure you it is a business necessity. We used to call

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that trickle down. It shows the trickle down rhetoric is so

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disgusting. There is a tick nickical point that's -- technical

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point point which is important if I was a shareholder, which I am not,

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the profits of just shy of �6 billion, the bonus billion of �2

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billion, that's a big percentage of the profits at a time when banks

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are under pressure to recapitalise balance sheets, which if do you

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that the share price would get stronger, so if I was a shareholder

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I wouldn't be too happy. If you look at the actual stats for

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shareholders in all businesses, they used to hold shares for an

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average of five years, now three and a half months, they're not that

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emotionally invested in the business shares in. They're paying

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massive bonuses to each other but still not lending money to small

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and medium-sized businesses. They haven't met the targets. Barclays

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says it has done better. What did you get for your birthday?

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haven't opened my presents yet. That's coming later. We have a quiz

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lined up for you, it's our present. Which of these does not want to be

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a new police commissioner. The Iraq veteran Tim Collins,

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Falklands veteran Simon Weston or political veteran John Prescott, we

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will give you the answer later in the show.

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Are the health reforms for England as bad for the coalition as the

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poll tax was for Thatcher? Not my words, but those of a Conservative

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cabinet Minister according to the influential right leaning blogger

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Tim Montgomery. This morning he published an article for the

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Conservative home blog, read by a lot of Tory grass roots, saying any

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problems the NHS will face in the future will now be unfairly blamed

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on the Bill and a Bill that is not evenly o only mangled and

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bureaucratic but unnecessary. He goes on to say the Bill is an

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unexploded bomb beneath the Tories' electoral prospects. Cameron must

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defuse it. The health Bill is having a tough

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time in the House of Lords where the Government's made 136 changes.

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There's concern this won't be enough to appease some Liberal

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Democrat peers. Labour is to stage an all-day debate in the Commons on

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February 22nd on the bill. So, what are the bill's chances of

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now. Welcome back to the daily politics.

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You have been encouraged to do this by three cabinet Ministers? That's

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right. There was a very important piece in Tuesday's Times by Rachel

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Sylvester which... Which you the srael, not on Liberal Democrat

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disquiet about the Bill which we have been familiar with but Tory

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disquiet and she quoted a Tory insider in Downing Street who

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talked about Andrew Lansley having to be taken out and shot. I was

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approached -. I began a ring around and was able to establish the

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extent of unhappiness amongst a lot of Conservatives at the health Bill.

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I think Conservative home was meant to represent the grass roots, not a

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hotline for distressed cabinet Ministers. Maybe we can do both.

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The Tory grass roots seem to be in Conservatives would like to see the

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National Health Service reformed, the question is do we have all the

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pre-conditions in place to make this a successful reform. Do we

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have a health saeg who has the confidence of the professions, who

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is able to communicate these reforms in a compelling way? Have

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we prepared the public for reform? Have we got a Whitehall machine

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that's on side? I don't think these pre-conditions exist. None of these

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pre-conditions were there there from the start. What has changed...

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Why didn't you say it then? Some of us were surprised when this health

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Bill came forward at the beginning. But... You weren't alone in that.

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We could see the case for it. Over time, you have just talked about

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the scale of amendments, it's become more mangled, more

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bureaucratic. Further detached from purpose. The headline, The Guardian

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report and others that have followed on your your article, say

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when I read it you don't really want to kill it, you want to

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emasculate it. That's closer to the truth. I believe it needs to be

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killed as far as the public are Bill, like the public health die

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mention, that could -- die mention that could enjoy support. The

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Government is doing enough incredibly important things on

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schools and welfare and the deficit, that's what it should be focused on.

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It doesn't need to be distracted by this health reforms as well. What

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do these cabinet Ministers want to you do? I think I have done what

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they wanted me to do. They're hiding behind you? Well, you were

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editor of the Sunday Times, you know how this works, a lot of

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people do not want to put their head above the phet, I have

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reported this. Are there more than three on the Conservative side?

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spoke to a lot of people after these approaches and I couldn't

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find others. Others thought it was too late now to retreat and we had

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to go on with the reform. These Ministers, just to clarify, these

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Ministers and perhaps others, these cabinet Ministers, they want the

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Bill to be emasculated or... Exactly, what I cannot find is any

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senior Tory, any MP who thinks that this is either been handled well or

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some think we still need to progress, because to retreat is the

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worst outcome, it's a terrible mess. I think I found a Tory that may

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just fit that Bill. Andrew Lansley? Not yet, almost. Tim Montgomery,

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thank you for joining us. We are joined from Chelmsford by Simon

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Burns, the health Minister. Three cabinet Ministers briefing a

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Conservative blog against your boss. Downing Street letting it be known

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that someone there wants to take your boss out to be shot. Can you

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ever remember any cabinet Minister being briefed against by his own

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mates like this? No, but what you are referring to is tittle tattle

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that appeared in the press in recent days and in the blog on

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Conservative Home. But what is important and we must not lose

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sight of, is the importance of modernising the NHS because,

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frankly, what is the key component of the modernisation is having the

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patient and the patient's interests at the heart of the NHS and the

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treatment of that patient, improving the quality of care and

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the standard of treatment for that patient, cutting out the

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bureaucracy in the NHS and getting greater integration of services so

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that we can have a more cost- effective delivery of service with

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improved standards so that the money that is generated, which will

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be about �4.5 billion between now and the next general election, that

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will be completely invested in frontline services. That's the

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important issue. I understand, and I want to come back to the

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substance of your reform in a minute. Let me clarify something,

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are you saying that when three cabinet Ministers brief a well

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known Conservative website against your Minister and his reforms, that

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that's just tittle tattle? I am saying that is tittle tattle

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because what is far more important is it is quite clear the Prime

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Minister has made it clear that he supports the modernisation

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programme, and that the Bill will continue because the NHS needs the

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legislation to be able to modernise to meet the challenges it is facing

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through an ageing population, massively increasing drugs Bill and

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improved medical science. If what you say about these reforms is true

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and it will result in a better health service, as you in your view

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have outlined, why have you managed to unite almost every professional

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health group in the country against you? Well, if you look at the

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responses from the Royal colleges, the BMA, the RCN -- RCN, when they

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responded to the White Paper, responded to recommendations that

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the future forum made that we adopted and amenned the Bill to

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take into account last June, there were elements of the legislation

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that they liked, for example, the BMA voted at its special general

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meeting last summer that in favour of GP commissioning, which is a

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core component of the legislation. But it's against the Bill?

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minute, if you look at the surveys that have been based on taking

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decisions by, for example, the Royal College of GPs, it's not

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representative. 8% of members of that Royal College took part, it is

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a self-selecting opinion poll and people could multiple vote.

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understand that. It was not the poll that would stand up if you had

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a political one trying to determine which party had what support in the

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country. I understand that. I have not used the poll. That shows

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distorted basis. The people who run the Royal College of Nurses, of

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Midwives, the British Medical Association, the Royal College of

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GPs are all against the Bill and the Prime Minister said change, if

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it is to endure, if it's really to people who work in the NHS. We have

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to take our nurses and doctors with us. By that criteria you have

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I disagree. As you have acknowledged earlier, in your

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statement, those surveys were flawed, and what is more important,

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I go around the country, I meet GPs' who are now actually engaged

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in commissioning care with PCTs, and they are enthusiastic about the

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fact that they are now empowered to take decisions to provide the

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finest quality care for patience, because of the modernisation this

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will give them. That is more important. Are you seriously

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telling us that if a proper opinion poll was done of nurses, doctors,

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clinicians, midwives, there would be substantial support for your

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reforms, is that what you're claiming? No, what I'm saying...

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That is what you were implying. what I'm saying is that the

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important judgment of what people think of the modernisation

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programme can be judged by speaking to those who are carrying it

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through on the ground. GPs, who are part of clinical Commission groups,

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who are now working with primary care trusts to commission care for

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their patients. And if you speak to them, you will find they are far

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more enthusiastic than you have been led to believe by the press

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and comments on blocs. That is only anecdotal evidence. If I meet and

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talk to people, it is anecdotal, it may be right, it may be wrong. But

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the evidence suggests overwhelmingly that you have not

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carried the health professionals with you, you have not carried the

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Liberal Democrats with you, you cannot even carry Alan Milburn with

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you, and now you cannot carry parts of the Cabinet with you - it is not

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a great result, is it? As I keep saying, there are a number of

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organisations within the NHS which have not mentioned which to support

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the modernisation. The Royal College of gynaecologists, the

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family doctors' Association, the National Association of primary

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care, all do. They all support the bill? Yes, they do. And you have

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seen that, even though it gets lost in the telling. The key thing which

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I keep coming back to his, if you go and speak to GPs on the ground...

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You have made that point very well, you have made it twice, actually. I

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would be grateful if you could send us press releases from these

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organisations, coming out in favour of the bill, and we will put them

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up on our website. That would be very interesting to see that. Just

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finally, the constant complaint is that your boss, Andrew Lansley, has

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not sold this bill well. So, if you were given 30 seconds to tell us

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just the headline of why the Health Service will be better in five

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years' time than it is now, it is yours... Thank you. Patients are at

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the heart of the modernisation, giving them increased care,

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improved care, Greater outcomes, cutting bureaucracy, so the money

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can be put back into health care, and moving forward, making sure

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that you do not have political micro management of the Health

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Service by politicians and civil servants in Whitehall, but you

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allow practitioners on the ground around the country to take

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decisions in the best interests of patients. That was a little more

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than 30 seconds, but we are very fair on this programme. Thanks for

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joining us from Essex. What did you make of that? It is such a car

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crash, isn't it? This morning I was trying to step outside my political

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identity and imagine what it is like to be David Cameron. I thought

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you were going to say Andrew Lansley. It is incredibly difficult

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for them, it is absolutely toxic. This whole idea that the country

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wants civil servants to be removed from healthcare, nobody came into

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this election thinking, civil servants are involved in my health

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care. They have concocted a completely false problem that

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nobody had, and now they have devised a sledge hammer to solve it.

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I would suggest that these three Cabinet members which Tim

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Montgomerie was talking about are kind of malicious in this, because

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if they really think this, they should stand up and be counted, and

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also, it is a bit late, is it not? The legislation is now back in the

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House of Lords, and I suspect what they're privately wishing for will

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be that the legislation will be defeated in the House of Lords, and

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then the Government can move away and say, we tried. But before the

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general election, David Cameron said, there will be no unnecessary,

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top-down reorganisation of the NHS. After the election, Andrew Lansley,

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the Secretary of State for Health, a friend of David Cameron, which is

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part of the problem, says it is the biggest and most radical shake-up

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of the NHS since 1948 - what changed after the election?

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person said, this would be like, if my editor said, you go away for a

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year and think up whatever story you like and then come back and we

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will put it on the front page. And then five minutes later, before you

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go on to press, -- and then five minutes before you go to press,

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they say, no, it is rubbish. think it will go through? I think

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it will be badly battered, but as some Tories are saying, this is

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going to turn out to be David Cameron's big test. I think it

:21:40.:21:50.
:21:50.:21:54.

could be the thing which crucify as the coalition, and then... We have

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to move on. There's a Row as you all know about what to do about Abu

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Qatada, which is rumbling on. On Monday, the President of the

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Special Immigration Appeals Commission ruled that the radical,

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some might say extremist - did I say that? - Islamist cleric should

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be freed on strict bail conditions, because his deportation had been

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blocked by the European Court of Human Rights. And the judge, Mr

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Justice Mitting, has said that even those strict bail conditions could

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be revoked within three months, unless British officials make

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progress on a new deal with Jordan. Last night, the Defence Secretary,

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Philip Hammond, outlined the Government's position. We are going

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through the process to try to see if we can get him back there. The

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Prime Minister has spoken to the King of Jordan this afternoon. A

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Home Office minister will be going out there next week. We are trying

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to establish with the Jordanians a set of assurances which will

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satisfy the court that we can send him back. This is not a good place

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for us to be, but the best thing... Which caught is this?

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Immigration Appeals Tribunal here, to allow us to send him back to

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Jordan. With us now, the Conservative MP Mark Reckless, and

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David Anderson QC, the independent reviewer of Terrorism legislation.

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Mark Reckless, what would you like to do with Abu Qatada, what do you

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think should be done with him? would like to send him back to

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Jordan, everyone is agreed he is a very dangerous man. He came here in

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1993, applied for asylum, he has gone through every avenue. Our own

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highest court has determined that he can be sent back to Jordan.

:23:50.:23:54.

would you do that, would you whisk him out in the middle of the night?

:23:54.:23:57.

If the Government announced that it was going to defy the European

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Court, the Government would immediately be injected by Abu

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Qatada's lawyers. Well, I understand the Prime Minister has

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spoken with the king of Jordan. if there is not an arrangement, how

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would you send him back? You said we would be injected, but actually,

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what Mr Justice Mitting said was that we could not send him back

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without taking on the political and reputation will cost, whatever that

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might be, of defying a European Court judgment. We have had a

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decision by our own highest court that he can be sent back.

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understand that, but it am asking you about the practicalities,

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because unless you whisky about in the middle of the night, his

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lawyers, if you announce you're going to do it regardless of the

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Strasbourg ruling, would immediately be on to it, and you

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would have to wait for that action. I'm not sure, because the

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Government would be acting contrary to an international treaty

:24:59.:25:04.

commitment, but it would be acting in line with the judgment of our

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highest court year. It has become clear that the Strasbourg court has

:25:07.:25:12.

gone so far off where it was, and is no longer I think a serious or

:25:12.:25:15.

credible court, that it is not unreasonable for the Government to

:25:15.:25:22.

act on the basis of what our court has said. David Anderson, if the

:25:22.:25:25.

Government decided, regardless of the Strasbourg court, if there is

:25:25.:25:29.

not another deal done in the desert, with the Jordanians, we're going to

:25:29.:25:33.

send him back, could they just do that, or would they face more legal

:25:34.:25:38.

action which could delay them doing that? They could certainly face

:25:38.:25:42.

legal action, the outcome of which nobody knows. More fundamentally

:25:43.:25:46.

you have got to decide whether you want to be bound by this court will

:25:46.:25:52.

not. If you want to be bound by it, you cannot pick and Jewish which

:25:52.:25:58.

judgements to abide by. Suddenly pick and choose. From time to time,

:25:58.:26:03.

a judgment is not complied with. Prisoners' voting, from 1995, we

:26:03.:26:08.

have not complied with that one. But in general, they are complied

:26:08.:26:13.

with. But the French and Italian equivalents of Abu Qatada were sent

:26:13.:26:16.

back to other countries, even though the court heard ruled

:26:16.:26:20.

against doing so. And last time I looked, the French and Italians

:26:20.:26:26.

still have one judge each in the Strasbourg court, as part of the 47.

:26:26.:26:30.

That's quite true. At the end of the day, the enforcement mechanism

:26:30.:26:34.

of the court is a political one, through the Committee of Ministers.

:26:34.:26:37.

If a state is continually in breach, then you get into difficult

:26:37.:26:43.

territory. Russia is continually in breach, but it is still a member.

:26:43.:26:48.

It has got a surprisingly good record, on most cases. There are

:26:48.:26:52.

several hundred Russian cases which are in breach at the moment. Turkey

:26:52.:26:58.

has more than Moldavia, and almost as many as Russia. But they are all

:26:58.:27:02.

members of the court. The last president, in his farewell speech,

:27:02.:27:07.

put it fairly well - governments are often reluctant to comply, but

:27:07.:27:11.

they generally get round to it in the end. The criticism from Britain

:27:11.:27:16.

is that the Strasbourg court changed the goalposts. Article

:27:16.:27:21.

three, Against torture, there are no caveats on that, and the British

:27:21.:27:25.

Government went to the Jordanians to get an agreement that he would

:27:25.:27:30.

not be tortured if sent back. That then went before the Strasbourg

:27:30.:27:33.

court again, and the court said, yes, we will have that, we accept

:27:33.:27:39.

that, but oh, hold on, he also cannot face any evidence which has

:27:39.:27:42.

been extracted by torture. To which, we said, you have never mentioned

:27:42.:27:47.

that before. Well, last time Abu Qatada went on trial in Jordan, he

:27:47.:27:51.

was convicted and the evidence of two men who had been tortured, they

:27:51.:27:57.

had been drugged, beaten on the soles of their feet. What the

:27:57.:28:00.

Strasbourg court was saying was that, if you want to send him back

:28:00.:28:03.

again, please can you get an Assurance first from Jordan that it

:28:03.:28:09.

will not happen again. Far from moving the goalposts, all it was

:28:09.:28:13.

doing was saying exactly what our own Court of Appeal had said in

:28:13.:28:18.

2008. A excuse me, the Court of Appeal was overruled by the Supreme

:28:18.:28:24.

Court. It was indeed. You always mention the Court of Appeal, you

:28:24.:28:28.

never mention the Supreme Court. You did the same on the Today

:28:28.:28:31.

Programme. You know better than I, the Supreme Court is superior to

:28:31.:28:36.

the Court of Appeal - why do you do that? I was addressing the question

:28:36.:28:39.

of, was the Court of Human Rights coming out of left field with

:28:39.:28:43.

something completely absurd and unprecedented? No, it wasn't. It

:28:43.:28:48.

was applying the law, as well understood. If we cannot get an

:28:48.:28:54.

agreement on evidence gained by torture, which satisfied the

:28:54.:28:57.

European Court -- satisfies the European Court, is it your view

:28:57.:29:01.

that we should withdraw from the European Court? Yes, it is, but we

:29:01.:29:05.

should take as many people with us as possible. That means trying to

:29:05.:29:09.

go through due process. David Cameron is trying to get reform of

:29:09.:29:12.

the court, and that is going to be very difficult to get that agreed

:29:12.:29:17.

by the 47. But by doing everything possible, it will then strengthen

:29:17.:29:22.

the ground, were we to find it necessary to leave the court.

:29:22.:29:25.

you remind our viewers of the only other European country which is not

:29:25.:29:30.

a member of the European Court? only other European country is

:29:30.:29:40.
:29:40.:29:41.

Bella Russia. Which is also the last totalitarian state. But other

:29:41.:29:45.

countries not that far short of the Munros are appointing judges who

:29:45.:29:55.
:29:55.:30:00.

are overruling our own Supreme Court. -- short of Belorussia. One

:30:00.:30:03.

of our law lords then says, no-one is suggesting that you cannot send

:30:03.:30:07.

anyone abroad just because their standards are not as good as ours.

:30:07.:30:10.

I'm afraid that is what the European Court is saying. We need

:30:10.:30:20.
:30:20.:30:23.

to deal with that. Given the kind of things which have been said,

:30:23.:30:29.

that if you are the Sun or the daughter of an apostate, you can be

:30:29.:30:33.

killed, and we have seen his videos, people watching this programme will

:30:33.:30:39.

be wondering, how come we have got John Terry on trial, and we cannot

:30:39.:30:48.

I think they will. What's the answer? The European Court, it's

:30:48.:30:52.

going to further contaminate people's dislike and distrust.

:30:52.:30:54.

not the European Court's fault we are not putting him on trial in

:30:54.:30:57.

England. The Supreme Court should be on a matter of national security,

:30:57.:31:01.

it should be the view of the the court that prevails over a European

:31:01.:31:04.

court. That should be the end game. Cameron should, as soon as he

:31:04.:31:07.

secured some agreement with the King of Jordan, deport this man.

:31:07.:31:11.

think that's a bit ridiculous, frankly. You cannot blame Europeans

:31:11.:31:14.

in any shape or form for the fact we won't put him on trial ourselves

:31:14.:31:18.

F we have a problem - I mean, obviously the two arguments against

:31:18.:31:22.

it are if it were open court it would compromise other

:31:22.:31:25.

investigations and then we have to pay for his prison care for amount

:31:25.:31:28.

of time necessary prison. I can see both those points but we have to

:31:28.:31:34.

take on both those points, we can't invoke - you can't do that.

:31:34.:31:38.

can't seriously want this man running, he is going to be a curfew,

:31:38.:31:42.

for two hours a day he is allowed to wander freely and he is a

:31:42.:31:48.

security threat. It is strange we can't try him ourselves. If you do

:31:48.:31:54.

want to walk away from Europe, it's a little bit reckless to assume we

:31:54.:31:59.

won't then have to have a bill of rights our own. The Human Rights

:31:59.:32:02.

Act in our domestic law and our top judges have decided it's OK to send

:32:02.:32:08.

him back to Jordan, but then that's overruled by someone else's sper

:32:08.:32:11.

pretation of the con-- interpretation of the convention.

:32:11.:32:14.

You are both going to be on a lot of programmes like this, we have

:32:14.:32:19.

not yet resolved prisoners' votes either. Plenty to keep us busy. We

:32:19.:32:25.

like keeping lawyers busy, because they don't get well paid.

:32:25.:32:28.

Ten million animals were slaughtered to control foot-and-

:32:28.:32:36.

mouth when it wraut the -- brought the countryside to a standstill in

:32:36.:32:40.

in 2001. It has since recovered but one of the big controversies over

:32:41.:32:44.

whether it is best to cull or vaccinate animals and that remains

:32:44.:32:47.

unresolved years on. What lessons have been learned since the foot-

:32:47.:32:51.

and-mouth outbreak? Max Cotton has been finding out what happened

:32:51.:33:01.
:33:01.:33:09.

In late January and early February 2001 a highly contagious disease

:33:09.:33:15.

was quietly spreading through the British livestock industry. Foot-

:33:15.:33:19.

and-mouth disease was discovered in Essex on the 19th February that

:33:19.:33:25.

year, and led to the slaughter of ten million animals. It thraeued a

:33:25.:33:30.

-- delayed a general election and cost the farming industry �3.1

:33:30.:33:33.

billion. It's a horrible thing to just come

:33:33.:33:38.

in and shoot everything on farm and just leave it there and just burn

:33:38.:33:41.

it, it just seemed a total waste and against everything that we had

:33:41.:33:47.

ever believed in. Philip rebuilt his Dartmoor farm after foot-and-

:33:47.:33:51.

mouth, and he's diversified. Horse riders on holiday come here to

:33:51.:33:56.

gather and drive cattle off the moors. The disease changed this

:33:56.:34:01.

farm in one positive way. I think farming has a much better view in

:34:02.:34:07.

the public eye now. There was a time perhaps in the 80s and 90s

:34:07.:34:13.

where farmers were demons of of the countryside, they were heavily

:34:13.:34:16.

subsidised and not overly efficient producers, I think that's changed

:34:16.:34:21.

now. There was a political undercurrent to the 2001 foot-and-

:34:21.:34:26.

mouth outbreak. Were farmers, particularly in Cumbria, and here

:34:26.:34:32.

in Devon, suffering at the hands of a terrible disease or at the hands

:34:32.:34:38.

of a terrible policy? Philip's farm was culled out because a farm

:34:38.:34:43.

nearby might have had foot-and- mouth. In fact, it didn't. Why kill

:34:43.:34:47.

millions of healthy animals, why not vaccinate?

:34:47.:34:52.

The problem with vaccination is that you then can't tell if the

:34:52.:34:55.

animal actually has foot-and-mouth, because it doesn't show any

:34:55.:35:00.

symptoms and so consumers here and across the EU would have to agree

:35:00.:35:05.

to eat meat from vaccinated animals. And it might take months or even

:35:05.:35:11.

years to prove that foot-and-mouth had been eradicated. Nick Brown,

:35:11.:35:13.

the agricultural Minister at the time, insists that he was right

:35:13.:35:17.

then, but thinks we should now be planning a new strategy. I would

:35:17.:35:23.

like to see a clearly established and properly honoured vaccinate to

:35:23.:35:27.

live strategy adopted worldwide and the best time to do it is when

:35:27.:35:32.

there isn't an outbreak and so people can discuss it in

:35:32.:35:36.

theoretical terms, rather than with there being practical and as ever,

:35:36.:35:40.

with these things, the trade consequences, I am not certain it

:35:40.:35:44.

has. After the storm three inquiries were used to draw up a

:35:44.:35:49.

new contingency plan against foot- and-mouth. But the vaccination

:35:49.:35:52.

versus culling debate which caused so much controversy for Nick Brown

:35:52.:35:56.

is still unresolved. Nothing's changed on that front at all. We

:35:56.:36:01.

still have the issue, do we cull cattle so people can farm again or

:36:01.:36:03.

vaccinate? If you vaccinate you then have the issue of whether they

:36:03.:36:08.

can go in the food chain. We also have the issue of smallholders

:36:08.:36:12.

having animals who probably haven't registered them with the ministry,

:36:12.:36:16.

so these people have sheep, pigs, that can all harbour foot-and-mouth

:36:17.:36:19.

and they wouldn't recognise it because they're not experienced

:36:19.:36:24.

farmers. 11 years after the epidemic and British farming has

:36:24.:36:29.

recovered and is thriving. But if foot-and-mouth did get a hold once

:36:29.:36:32.

again the former Agriculture Minister and one of the country's

:36:32.:36:36.

leading dairy farmers say that Government policy has a long way to

:36:36.:36:41.

go if it's to protect us from millions of burning carcasses and

:36:41.:36:46.

another very big bill. That was our Max. Joining me now

:36:46.:36:51.

the Conservative MP Neil Parish, who is also a farmer. Welcome to

:36:51.:36:57.

the Daily Politics. As we look back, almost 11 years, the pictures still

:36:57.:37:00.

seered in our minds, of course, because it's hard to forget, what

:37:00.:37:05.

is the single biggest lesson that we should have learned from that?

:37:05.:37:09.

think the single biggest lesson and I was part of an inquiry done by

:37:09.:37:13.

the European Parliament into the disease, was to close down all

:37:13.:37:16.

movement of animals immediately and also manage it very close to where

:37:16.:37:22.

the outbreak was. The Scots they manage their smaller outbreak of

:37:22.:37:25.

foot-and-mouth from the locality. We managed everything from London

:37:25.:37:29.

and of course very huge problems there for farmers, for the burial

:37:29.:37:34.

of sheep and the general handling of the whole outbreak. So, of

:37:34.:37:39.

course clampdown immediately on any movement of animals whatsoever.

:37:39.:37:43.

There was a great argument, I wonder if it's resolved now, many

:37:43.:37:48.

people, some people, not many, some people said we should not have gone

:37:48.:37:53.

in for this multimillion animal slaughter, we should have done

:37:53.:37:58.

vaccination instead. The Dutch, I am told, did more vaccination than

:37:58.:38:04.

we did. Where do staupb on that? -- stand on that? The Dutch couldn't

:38:04.:38:09.

then put those animals into the food chain, they did sraeubgs Nate

:38:09.:38:11.

-- vaccinate, they then had to slaughter animals afterwards. We

:38:12.:38:16.

have to agree a policy through the single market of Europe, as whether

:38:16.:38:19.

the supermarkets and the buyers all across Europe will accept

:38:19.:38:22.

vaccinated meat. There's nothing wrong with eating it whatsoever,

:38:22.:38:26.

it's very often the perception. There was I think a little bit of

:38:27.:38:30.

resistance from the supermarkets as well at the time as to whether they

:38:30.:38:34.

were going to want to sell vaccinated meat. It's something we

:38:34.:38:37.

have to deal with. The other thing we needed to deal with is we didn't

:38:37.:38:42.

need this massive cull, these were animals that were very close to an

:38:42.:38:45.

outbreak but didn't have the disease. I always feel there was a

:38:45.:38:49.

lot to do with getting the general election on the way and stamping

:38:49.:38:53.

out the disease quickly and too many animals were slaughtered, even

:38:53.:38:57.

under a slaughter policy. So you are saying that a large degree of

:38:57.:39:02.

slaughter was inevitable, but not as much as we ended up doing?

:39:02.:39:08.

and also when we ended up burning those huge funeral pyres, there

:39:08.:39:12.

were valleys in Devon when they set fire to these animals, then the

:39:12.:39:16.

farms all through that valley were then infected with the disease. We

:39:16.:39:20.

have never been able to prove scientifically whether the disease

:39:20.:39:23.

was borne through the air or not, but it's one of those suspicions

:39:23.:39:28.

that lay there and we just basically slaughtered too many

:39:28.:39:32.

animals, and we allowed the movement to carry on for some five

:39:32.:39:37.

days when the outbreak started and that's where the disease got out of

:39:37.:39:44.

control. Now the outbreak that happened that came from Our own

:39:44.:39:48.

laboratories the disease escaped from, at least it did actually shut

:39:48.:39:52.

down - we shut down much quicker and we didn't have the spread of

:39:52.:39:56.

the disease. It is about the spread of the disease. Vaccination on its

:39:56.:40:00.

own unless you vaccinate all your cattle all of the time, would not

:40:00.:40:06.

have helped in this instance. Finally, have we improved our early

:40:06.:40:10.

warning systems to nip any future outbreak, because there will be one

:40:10.:40:13.

inevitably in the scheme of things, in the bud? I believe we have. But

:40:13.:40:19.

I also think it would be right for Defra and the ministry to actually

:40:19.:40:27.

do a spot check and actually have - - and deal as though an outbreak

:40:27.:40:30.

had happened and see if the procedure is fit for purpose. I

:40:30.:40:32.

worry sometimes with our bureaucracy, especially ruling

:40:32.:40:35.

everything from London, we sometimes don't get it right in

:40:35.:40:39.

Cumbria or Devon or Wales, where the outbreaks were. I have noticed

:40:39.:40:43.

that too on many things, Mr Parish! Absolutely. Thank you for joining

:40:43.:40:49.

Plymouth, Essex, we are getting around today. Back to London. The

:40:49.:40:52.

coalition agreement included plans for an elected House of Lords. All

:40:52.:40:55.

the parties backed reform at the last last election but previous

:40:55.:40:58.

attempts have failed in the face of opposition from peers themselves.

:40:58.:41:02.

Now Labour's leader in the Upper House, Jan Royall, says it would be

:41:02.:41:05.

wrong for the Government to press ahead with change now. That's

:41:05.:41:10.

likely to put her on a collision course with Nick Clegg, who sees

:41:10.:41:14.

Lords reform as a critical part of the Lib Dem bit of the coalition

:41:14.:41:19.

programme. Here he is talking about it all just before Christmas.

:41:19.:41:26.

The Lords is perhaps the most potent symbol of a closed society.

:41:26.:41:30.

Because we are in the process of building support for a Lords reform

:41:30.:41:35.

package, I am often advised not to be too outspoken on this issue. But

:41:35.:41:40.

I am afraid this is one boat that urgently needs rocking. Lloyd

:41:40.:41:45.

George described the House of Lords as being a body of 500 men, chosen

:41:45.:41:50.

at random, from amongst the unemployed. To be honest, it would

:41:50.:41:55.

be better if it was. Of course among our peers there are those

:41:55.:42:00.

with valuable experience and expertise, but a veneer of

:42:00.:42:05.

expertise can surely no longer serve as an alibi for a chamber

:42:05.:42:08.

which legislates on behalf of the people, but is not held to account

:42:08.:42:13.

by the people. The Lords is currently constituted, is an

:42:13.:42:17.

affront to the principles of openness which underpin a modern

:42:17.:42:22.

democracy. Joining me now Jan Royall, Labour's

:42:22.:42:26.

leader in the House of Lords. Are you really telling us that even in

:42:26.:42:30.

the 21st century we can't move towards an elected second chamber?

:42:30.:42:33.

I am not saying that and I heard your introduction in which you said

:42:33.:42:37.

I had said they shouldn't go along with reform, that's not what I said.

:42:37.:42:41.

What did you say? I said that if and when I hope they do go ahead

:42:41.:42:45.

with it, I am just sort of giving them, I am observing that it will

:42:45.:42:48.

clog up the House of Lords, that's not to say I don't want it. Tkoeu

:42:48.:42:51.

want it, I am I am saying it's going to be extremely difficult.

:42:51.:42:55.

Not if you helped? I will be helping, absolutely. If you have

:42:56.:43:00.

the coalition and the Lords helping together, why will it clog it up?

:43:00.:43:04.

Because although I am very pro- reform and my front bench is very

:43:04.:43:08.

pro-reform, I cannot take the whole of my benches with me and certainly

:43:08.:43:13.

most importantly, I think that a huge percentage of the Tory benches

:43:13.:43:16.

will be against reform and they will be the people who are stopping

:43:16.:43:20.

reform, not my people. I have covered House of Lords reforms

:43:20.:43:25.

since it was stopped by Enoch Powell and Michael Foot, there's

:43:25.:43:28.

never a good time to reform it, let's get on with it. I agree.

:43:28.:43:33.

There is never a good time. Constitutional change is incredibly

:43:33.:43:38.

important. I say bring it on, but I also say that if this is to be the

:43:38.:43:42.

absolute sort of - the most important part of the coalition's

:43:42.:43:45.

programme for Government in the next session, I just wonder if the

:43:45.:43:49.

people of Britain will understand that constitutional change is more

:43:49.:43:52.

important than their standard of life, jobs for kids, etc. You can

:43:52.:43:57.

say that at any time. You can't. You could, cow have said it when --

:43:57.:44:00.

you could have said it when the IMF were brought in to save this

:44:00.:44:05.

country and Lords reform was on the agenda. I wouldn't have said it in

:44:05.:44:13.

97 were things were rosy and we did got in. Start is the operative word.

:44:13.:44:17.

We made a huge, huge change by getting rid of the majority of

:44:17.:44:24.

hereditary. It's still unelected. probably want an elected house more

:44:24.:44:28.

than you do. You don't know what I want and you won't find out either,

:44:28.:44:33.

because it's not my job to tell you. Well, dam! It seems interests a --

:44:33.:44:36.

there is a huge vested interest among the existing members of the

:44:36.:44:41.

Lords, which is a kind of club for the establishment, just to stop

:44:41.:44:51.
:44:51.:44:51.

A lot of peers want to stop it, but I would not call them a club for

:44:51.:44:58.

the establishment. But there's about 800 of you. There are far too

:44:58.:45:02.

many, that is one of my problems. Here's one difference, the Senate

:45:02.:45:06.

in America actually matters. You've got 800 people, and very limited

:45:06.:45:12.

powers. Yes, we have got very limited powers. How many would you

:45:12.:45:18.

have? How many peers? Would you still call them peers? Would you

:45:18.:45:28.
:45:28.:45:29.

call the monkeys? No, I would not. What would you call them? Well,

:45:29.:45:34.

senators has been positive. As a socialist, do you think anybody

:45:34.:45:39.

should be called Lord in the 21st century? I would go with senators.

:45:39.:45:43.

But one of my problems is that at the moment, there are rumours that

:45:43.:45:47.

the coalition government is going to put in 60 or more peers, how mad

:45:47.:45:54.

is that, when you have got a House of more than 800 people? It keeps

:45:54.:45:59.

them off the streets. But it is completely mad to put in more peers

:45:59.:46:05.

now. I understand. It is mad and less you lose every single bill,

:46:05.:46:12.

and then it makes sense. -- unless you lose every single bill.

:46:12.:46:16.

country is about to go back into double dip recession, there is

:46:16.:46:20.

massive unemployment, and what is the response of Nick Clegg and the

:46:20.:46:23.

Lib Dems? Let's two with the constitution. That is not what

:46:23.:46:27.

people want, they want growth to get us out of recession. Can they

:46:27.:46:32.

not have a strategy for growth, and a second chamber which represents

:46:32.:46:36.

the country in the 21st century? They are on an exceptionally sticky

:46:36.:46:42.

wicket, in as Lara's, they have not got a mandate, and many of the most

:46:42.:46:48.

important policies were not announced in any manifesto.

:46:48.:46:52.

Effectively, when they were unelected themselves, they will be

:46:52.:46:58.

opening up... They are not exactly unelected, if you add together the

:46:58.:47:05.

Tory and the Lib Dem vote... Sure, but people will say, I did not vote

:47:05.:47:10.

for this or that, and I did not vote for this government. This is

:47:10.:47:14.

just because Nick Clegg failed so miserably on the alternative vote

:47:14.:47:19.

referendum. It strikes me, if you are as enthusiastic about House of

:47:19.:47:23.

Lords reform as you say, you should be sitting down with the Tories in

:47:23.:47:27.

the Lords, and the leader of the Lib Dems, working together to get

:47:27.:47:37.
:47:37.:47:40.

this through. I'm sure that we will get together and try and get this

:47:40.:47:48.

bill through. However, I still say that there will be 70% or 80% of

:47:48.:47:52.

people in the House of Lords... you think there is a big

:47:52.:47:56.

constituency in the chamber against reform? I think there is, but it is

:47:56.:47:59.

because a lot of them are concerned about the powers of the House of

:47:59.:48:03.

Commons. The majority of people want the House of Commons to be the

:48:03.:48:07.

prime chamber, they want the House of Commons to have primacy, and

:48:07.:48:11.

there concern is that the bill, as it was drafted, makes a mockery of

:48:11.:48:14.

that. People think the House of Commons is the most important

:48:14.:48:21.

chamber. And it is. And it should remain so. When you come back and

:48:21.:48:26.

see us? I will be delighted to. Over in the Commons, another topic

:48:26.:48:31.

which has been around for some time now, MPs have been discussing

:48:31.:48:41.
:48:41.:48:41.

Afghanistan, asking, crucially, when will it end? In Helmand and

:48:41.:48:45.

across Afghanistan, is the Foreign Secretary seriously suggesting that

:48:45.:48:48.

British military personnel will be involved in combat operations for

:48:48.:48:53.

potentially between one year and 18 months after the Americans have

:48:53.:49:00.

transferred away from combat operations? We cannot be complacent,

:49:00.:49:05.

as gains made are fragile and not yet irreversible. But we are firmly

:49:05.:49:10.

on track for the Afghans to have lead responsibility by 2013. They

:49:10.:49:15.

will have full security responsibility by the end of 2014.

:49:15.:49:20.

This means that plans for British combat troop draw down by the end

:49:20.:49:24.

of 2014 also remain on track. hope you will excuse me if I return

:49:24.:49:29.

to the issue of the attitude of the United States and of the French.

:49:29.:49:34.

There is of course a common background - in each country, they

:49:34.:49:40.

are in the throes of a very acrimonious presidential election,

:49:40.:49:43.

which leads me to the conclusion that statements may be made for

:49:43.:49:50.

political rather than military reasons. Can he say more about the

:49:50.:49:54.

negotiations going on in Qatar? Is there anything we can do to get

:49:54.:49:59.

more impetus to those negotiations? We all want an Afghanistan which

:49:59.:50:04.

can maintain its own security, and which is not used as a safe haven

:50:04.:50:08.

for international terrorists. Our strategy is to help the Afghan

:50:08.:50:12.

Government to build security forces, to make progress towards a

:50:12.:50:14.

sustainable political settlement and to support the building of a

:50:14.:50:24.
:50:24.:50:27.

viable Afghan state. Joining me now, the former leader of the Lib Dems

:50:27.:50:30.

at Menzies Campbell. It is hard to avoid the impression that we are

:50:30.:50:34.

moving towards the end game in Afghanistan. Undoubtedly. First of

:50:35.:50:39.

all, we had the statement from the Lisbon conference about combat

:50:39.:50:44.

troops coming out by 2014, but you may have noticed, I know you're a

:50:44.:50:48.

keen student of American politics, Mr Pennetta, the Secretary of State

:50:48.:50:51.

for Defence, hinted very strongly that the Americans would start a

:50:51.:50:55.

serious draw down before that. In the exchanges we had yesterday in

:50:55.:50:58.

the House of Commons, William Hague was endeavouring to put a slightly

:50:58.:51:02.

different interpretation on it, but Mr Pennetta has never would go on

:51:02.:51:05.

that. When you add to that the fact that Sarkozy has said that the

:51:05.:51:10.

French are coming out at the end of 2013, then, there is a lot of

:51:10.:51:14.

political stuff going on. It is election time, isn't it? You have

:51:14.:51:19.

got it in one, there are two presidential elections taking place,

:51:19.:51:23.

in the United States and in France. Obama was able to blame the

:51:23.:51:28.

previous administration, Iraq was George W Bush's war, and he had

:51:28.:51:33.

been against it. By agreeing to a surge, putting 30,000 more troops

:51:33.:51:39.

on the ground, then Afghanistan became Obama's war. He will not

:51:39.:51:42.

want to face the electorate in November of this year with it still

:51:42.:51:46.

hanging over him. He will want to show that there has been some

:51:46.:51:49.

serious reduction. What did you make of the confidential report

:51:49.:51:56.

which was leaked to the media by NATO, which told us things we knew,

:51:56.:52:00.

though the fact it came from NATO still made it important, but it

:52:00.:52:05.

added to it, saying not only was Pakistani intelligence and the

:52:05.:52:13.

Pakistani military supporting the Taliban, but part of the Afghan

:52:13.:52:17.

army and the Afghan police are close to the Taliban, indeed, in

:52:17.:52:21.

some areas, the Taliban are so on the present, that they have a

:52:21.:52:24.

hotline in the village, if the chief is behaving badly, you call

:52:24.:52:29.

up the Taliban - I mean, in some shape or form, they and up taking

:52:29.:52:36.

over, do they not? That document was not based I think on close

:52:36.:52:40.

analysis, it simply recorded what people were saying. But we are

:52:40.:52:45.

talking to the Taliban, they have been allowed to establish not an

:52:45.:52:52.

Embassy, but it in the office in Qatar. For a long time, the Afghan

:52:52.:52:56.

Government, Hamid Karzai, has been very sensitive about the whole

:52:56.:53:01.

notion of whether or not we should talk to the Taliban. Remember, two

:53:01.:53:04.

civil servants were thrown out of Afghanistan because they had been

:53:04.:53:08.

doing just that. But there is no doubt, if we're going to have

:53:08.:53:13.

anything approaching political, and, we hope, peaceful agreements, then

:53:13.:53:18.

it can only be done by talking to the Taliban. Some will wonder what

:53:18.:53:22.

could see the blood and treasure that has been spent has been for,

:53:22.:53:25.

if we end up with the situation where the Taliban are either in

:53:25.:53:29.

power completely, or the dominant faction in a new government.

:53:29.:53:35.

Remember that our purpose in going to Afghanistan was to prevent any

:53:35.:53:41.

further acts of terrorism from Al- Qaeda, based in Afghanistan, based

:53:41.:53:45.

there with the consent, sometimes perhaps even the encouragement, of

:53:45.:53:50.

the Taliban. To that extent, we have succeeded. But you're quite

:53:50.:53:55.

right, it is an issue which came up almost on the sidelines of that

:53:55.:54:00.

exchange which we saw a moment ago, in the position of women. If, after

:54:00.:54:04.

all of this, the position of women in Afghanistan goes back to what it

:54:04.:54:09.

was before Hamid Karzai, before our intervention, then a lot of people

:54:09.:54:12.

will feel very disappointed and let down. But your point about blood

:54:12.:54:18.

and treasure was very well made. it was the position of women which

:54:19.:54:23.

mattered, we should have kept the Soviets there. There were more

:54:23.:54:28.

women in professional positions in those days. Indeed. It reminds me

:54:28.:54:32.

of the Jill Dando crime Institute been set up when Jill Dando was

:54:32.:54:38.

killed. Someone said, it is a brilliantly successful Institute

:54:38.:54:43.

because no more Jill Dandos have been killed. There was not another

:54:43.:54:47.

Osama Bin Laden. We went in there to close down that situation, and

:54:47.:54:52.

of course, that situation has not been duplicated. I'm glad Menzies

:54:52.:54:56.

Campbell reminded us why we were there, it was to do with

:54:56.:54:59.

suppressing Al-Qaeda. A lot of people thought it was to try and

:54:59.:55:05.

topple the Taliban. We did that many years ago. In which case,

:55:05.:55:11.

pull-out now. And where are they now? They are in Somalia, and the

:55:11.:55:16.

Yemen. So far, we have not had a major attack since 7/7 in this

:55:16.:55:24.

country. Fingers crossed, with the Olympics coming up. 600th

:55:24.:55:28.

University of your university this year? Because we are not exactly

:55:28.:55:33.

sure of the date, it has lasted 14 the years! Time now to see what

:55:33.:55:43.
:55:43.:55:45.

else has been happening over the Transport Secretary Justin Greening

:55:45.:55:48.

said she would vote against bonuses for Network Rail executives, but

:55:48.:55:52.

she got what she wanted on Monday anyway, when they decided to forgo

:55:53.:55:56.

their payouts. William Hague returned from the United Nations

:55:56.:56:03.

and accused Russia and China of a... Grave error of judgment.

:56:03.:56:06.

Government's Health Bill came in for more criticism. Andrew Lansley

:56:06.:56:10.

came under sustained fire, from Labour, and later closer to home.

:56:10.:56:15.

That is why his people are saying that the Health Secretary should be

:56:15.:56:20.

taken out and shot. His career prospects are a lot better than

:56:20.:56:25.

those of the Leader of the Opposition. The Bank of England

:56:25.:56:29.

pumped more than �300 billion more into the economy through

:56:29.:56:39.
:56:39.:56:48.

quantitative easing. And David Just time before we go to find out

:56:48.:56:52.

the answer to our quiz question. The question was, which one of

:56:52.:57:00.

these does not want to be a Police Commissioner? What was the answer?

:57:00.:57:09.

I think it must be Simon Weston who doesn't, because otherwise...

:57:09.:57:13.

think it is John Prescott. You're all wrong, all three want to be.

:57:13.:57:19.

Does he really want to do it, John Prescott? Yes, he's standing for

:57:19.:57:25.

the Hull area. It brings a salary of �100,000. It was the first job I

:57:25.:57:30.

could imagine John Prescott in and not mind. Now, it is your birthday,

:57:30.:57:35.

we wanted to light the candles, but we were told we had to go on a risk

:57:35.:57:41.

assessment course first, and we did not have time. Sadly, would you...?

:57:41.:57:44.

not have time. Sadly, would you...? Shall I be mother? Am going to cut

:57:44.:57:50.

you a piece of cake. So, I have not had a answers to every question

:57:50.:57:58.

today, so let's see if I can get one. How old are you? 51. Was that

:57:58.:58:07.

necessary? You are wearing well, I might say. By sue. Are you going to

:58:07.:58:12.

have some? No, not yet. I will have some after the programme. -- bless

:58:12.:58:21.

you. Are we seeing a turning point with Ed Miliband, he has done well

:58:21.:58:25.

at three PMQs in a row now? Well, maybe it got to the point where

:58:25.:58:32.

things were going so badly... remember, William Hague did very

:58:32.:58:34.

well at Prime Minister's Question Time against Tony Blair, it did him

:58:34.:58:41.

no good in the end. On that note, we say thanks to our guests, the

:58:41.:58:45.

One O'Clock News is starting on BBC One. I will be back at midday on

:58:45.:58:51.

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