Browse content similar to 21/02/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Good afternoon. Welcome to the Daily Politics. And on today's | :00:42. | :00:45. | |
lunchtime menu, economic bail-outs and political bust ups. | :00:45. | :00:49. | |
Greece gets its bail-out after hours of midnight wrangling. They | :00:49. | :00:52. | |
get 130 billion euros which will get them through the next couple of | :00:52. | :00:56. | |
months. But is this just prolonging the agony? | :00:56. | :00:59. | |
We'll look back at yesterday's bitter Commons row over the failure | :00:59. | :01:03. | |
of the UK's Border Agency. Proper checks were not made on hundreds of | :01:03. | :01:07. | |
thousands of people coming to these shores. Who is to blame? | :01:07. | :01:10. | |
Last year British business lost more days to strike action than any | :01:10. | :01:14. | |
time since the 1980s. So is it time to change the law and make it | :01:14. | :01:17. | |
harder to down tools? And what should Andrew Lansley have | :01:17. | :01:21. | |
done when confronted by an angry pensioner? We will ask some former | :01:21. | :01:29. | |
spin doctors how to avoid the photo opportunity from hell. | :01:29. | :01:32. | |
With us for the whole programme today are Graham Leach from the | :01:32. | :01:40. | |
Institute of Directors and Frances O'Grady from the TUC. Welcome. If | :01:40. | :01:46. | |
you have any thoughts or comments, you can tweeted them. | :01:46. | :01:48. | |
Let's start with Nick Clegg's latest initiative to try to get | :01:48. | :01:53. | |
young people back to work. The Deputy Prime Minister was in South | :01:53. | :01:56. | |
London this morning to promote his new �126 million scheme that will | :01:56. | :01:59. | |
enable businesses and charities to bid for contracts of up to �2,200 | :01:59. | :02:02. | |
for a teenager who can be kept in work, education or training for 12 | :02:03. | :02:09. | |
months. At the moment almost one in five people aged between 16 and 24 | :02:09. | :02:12. | |
are classified as so-called NEETs. Not in education, employment or | :02:12. | :02:17. | |
training. Mr Clegg says the plan is about getting them out of the | :02:17. | :02:21. | |
living room, away from the telly and into the world of work. Will it | :02:22. | :02:30. | |
work? Clearly there is a political imperative to do something because | :02:30. | :02:34. | |
we have 1 million young people unemployed. Spain has a 50% youth | :02:34. | :02:40. | |
unemployment rate, so it is not that bad, and this will deal with | :02:40. | :02:44. | |
50,000 out of 1 million, so it is fiddling, politically it has to be | :02:45. | :02:50. | |
done, but it will not change things. Are you saying it is not worth it | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
because businesses will not be attracted by the incentive of | :02:54. | :03:00. | |
�2,200? It will help but there are probably more direct ways you could | :03:00. | :03:04. | |
help in terms of boosting education and training elsewhere. What we | :03:05. | :03:10. | |
need to do is boost the quality of the applicants. Trying to subsidise | :03:10. | :03:15. | |
employment will not change things. Isn't the problem now that if we | :03:15. | :03:20. | |
don't tackle the issue, a ticking timebomb Nick Clegg calls it, it | :03:20. | :03:26. | |
will store up huge problems down the line. Absolutely. We are going | :03:26. | :03:30. | |
to need more ambitious action and we are seeing at the moment. More | :03:30. | :03:37. | |
money? We have a million people unemployed. We have no education | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
maintenance allowance, tuition fees tripled, lots of young people | :03:41. | :03:46. | |
finding themselves on unpaid internships and work-experience. | :03:46. | :03:53. | |
This has to be welcomed but it is such a small step. �126 million | :03:53. | :03:58. | |
does not sound like a huge amount of money for that many young people | :03:58. | :04:03. | |
but they are targeting those at the very bottom. I would like to see | :04:03. | :04:06. | |
the government to rethink the scrapping of the Future Jobs Fund | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
that the previous government had in place, which was making a | :04:10. | :04:15. | |
difference, quality work that paid at least minimum wage and that very | :04:15. | :04:21. | |
often lead to a full-time job. payment by results work? In | :04:21. | :04:28. | |
principle? Francis said you need to pay people a reasonable wage for | :04:28. | :04:33. | |
them to leave and then get a proper permanent job, but for businesses | :04:33. | :04:38. | |
does payment by results work? Business wants to see somebody | :04:38. | :04:43. | |
well-trained, with the basic skills they need, and then the company can | :04:43. | :04:48. | |
recruit them. What they are seeing at the moment his concern for the | :04:48. | :04:53. | |
quality of recruits. The problem goes much further back. It goes | :04:53. | :04:59. | |
back to the basics in school. you say they want people fully | :04:59. | :05:03. | |
trained. Businesses cannot expect people with reasonable | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
qualifications even to be fully trained. The idea is that they do | :05:07. | :05:13. | |
it. I am talking about the basics, having job skills. Is there the | :05:13. | :05:22. | |
suspicion that business just once cheap labour. -- wants. The Future | :05:22. | :05:28. | |
of Business his people. Businesses do not want to squeeze the workers. | :05:29. | :05:32. | |
They know their future is dependent on the people that work for them | :05:33. | :05:36. | |
and they want to maintain and improve the skills base for their | :05:36. | :05:41. | |
own company. The problem is the government promised it could cut | :05:41. | :05:44. | |
nearly three-quarters of a million jobs in the public sector and that | :05:44. | :05:49. | |
the private sector would step up to the mark. Instead we have five | :05:49. | :05:53. | |
people chasing every job vacancy in Britain and more jobs being lost in | :05:53. | :05:58. | |
the public sector, jobs that could give many of our young people a | :05:58. | :06:08. | |
:06:08. | :06:09. | ||
diesel and star out. Except that then -- young people a good start. | :06:09. | :06:14. | |
Except that these jobs are not needed. They are needed. Health, | :06:14. | :06:19. | |
education, the Border Agency. We meet real people do in real jobs. | :06:19. | :06:24. | |
We could be doing a nationwide energy efficiency programme and | :06:24. | :06:28. | |
getting him people into decent apprenticeship, making homes more | :06:28. | :06:33. | |
energy efficient and cutting carbon emissions. Instead we have a | :06:33. | :06:39. | |
piecemeal approach that will not tackle youth unemployment. | :06:40. | :06:44. | |
private sector creates jobs, that is the lesson in history. Not at | :06:44. | :06:51. | |
the pace we need. Because we have a weak economy. We surely learnt the | :06:51. | :06:55. | |
mistake in the 1970s of the public sector creating jobs, and surely we | :06:55. | :07:03. | |
have moved on from that. Not when you are in hard economic times. | :07:03. | :07:08. | |
you think you are in hard economic times here, let's go to Greece. | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
After 14 hours of negotiations, not to mention the months of to-ing and | :07:11. | :07:13. | |
fro-ing, eurozone finance ministers finally agreed a second huge bail- | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
out for Greece last night. Greece will have to accept years of | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
austerity and will be closely monitored by EU officials to make | :07:20. | :07:25. | |
sure they don't overspend. Greece will receive a bail-out of 130 | :07:25. | :07:28. | |
billion euros which will allow it to meet its immediate cash needs | :07:28. | :07:32. | |
and avoid bankruptcy. Private holders of Greek bonds will also | :07:32. | :07:35. | |
have to accept a write-down on their investments, which is | :07:35. | :07:40. | |
expected to cut debt by 100 billion. The aim is that Greece will reduce | :07:40. | :07:46. | |
its debt level from 160% of GDP now to about 120% by 2020. Still high | :07:46. | :07:52. | |
by international standards but thought to be manageable. Some | :07:52. | :07:54. | |
would question whether that is manageable. Some economists worry | :07:55. | :07:57. | |
that hacking back spending will mean it is years before growth | :07:57. | :08:01. | |
returns. But George Osborne says the deal is good for Europe and | :08:01. | :08:05. | |
good for Britain. Last night's developments were very encouraging | :08:05. | :08:10. | |
for the European economy. Greece took some very difficult decisions | :08:10. | :08:15. | |
to face up to its own debts, as other countries like Britain are. | :08:16. | :08:23. | |
We have the eurozone collectively standing behind their currency. Of | :08:23. | :08:27. | |
course, resolving the Greece situation is only part of the | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
eurozone crisis but I think we took a significant step towards that | :08:31. | :08:35. | |
last night and that is good for Britain, because resolving the | :08:36. | :08:43. | |
eurozone crisis could be the biggest boost that Britain can get. | :08:43. | :08:47. | |
George Osborne thinks this is a good thing for Britain and Greece. | :08:47. | :08:55. | |
Are they breathing a sigh of relief? Yes. But I think the | :08:55. | :09:01. | |
biggest size of relief are coming from eurozone officials rather than | :09:01. | :09:05. | |
Greece itself. This does take some of the pressure off from Europe and | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
it means that a messy default in the short term will be avoided as | :09:09. | :09:15. | |
far as the eurozone is concerned. It enables the eurozone to buy time | :09:15. | :09:19. | |
in order to strengthen the defences around the banks in some of the | :09:19. | :09:23. | |
weaker countries. But as regards Greece, they have got to implement | :09:23. | :09:27. | |
some pretty tough measures and this is already an economy in free-for- | :09:27. | :09:34. | |
all. It contracted by 7% in the last quarter of last year. | :09:34. | :09:38. | |
Unemployment is 21%. This is a country that is having to take on | :09:38. | :09:43. | |
further cuts. What does Greece have to look forward to? Where will | :09:43. | :09:47. | |
growth come from? Or are they going to look forward to a decade of | :09:47. | :09:54. | |
hardship? Thank you. With us to answer those questions is John | :09:54. | :09:59. | |
Redwood and Rachel Reeves. George Osborne sounding relatively upbeat, | :10:00. | :10:06. | |
saying this is good for Britain and will be good for Greece. George | :10:06. | :10:11. | |
Osborne has to say that. He needs to be pro-European. Said he does | :10:11. | :10:16. | |
not feel that. I can give a different views. My view is that | :10:16. | :10:20. | |
this is not a success. This is a deal they will come to regret | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
because I don't think it can work and I don't believe the numbers | :10:23. | :10:27. | |
they have signed up to for the next eight years on meaningful. I don't | :10:27. | :10:31. | |
think Greece will meet their deficit targets. Have they delayed | :10:31. | :10:39. | |
the targets...? Isn't this about covering your own back? Cutting | :10:39. | :10:43. | |
Greece adrift when the fire walls aren't that sure of the rest of | :10:43. | :10:48. | |
Europe and contagion might be not contained, that could be worse? | :10:49. | :10:54. | |
am in favour of an orderly exit of Greece from the euro. They have had | :10:54. | :10:58. | |
a couple of these two planet and they have not taken an advantage of | :10:58. | :11:05. | |
that -- couple of years to plan it. If they were sensible, they would | :11:05. | :11:08. | |
have it plan be worked out in secret. 80s seven countries have | :11:08. | :11:18. | |
:11:18. | :11:19. | ||
left single currency schemes quite successfully since 1945 -- 87. | :11:19. | :11:25. | |
Coming out of the report was not an easy thing to do in the communist | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
era and when the former communist countries got out of the Russian | :11:28. | :11:37. | |
rouble, they started to do well. The successful, the entrepreneurial | :11:37. | :11:39. | |
path leading Greece in large numbers and I don't think this will | :11:39. | :11:48. | |
stop the flood of money -- are leaving Greece. Should Greece come | :11:48. | :11:53. | |
out of the eurozone? I agree that the plan that has been put in place | :11:53. | :11:57. | |
overnight will not do what is needed... Because they need more | :11:58. | :12:03. | |
money? They need different policies and a different approach. Greece | :12:03. | :12:08. | |
has been in recession for four years. The economy shrunk by 7% at | :12:08. | :12:13. | |
the end of last year going into the fifth year of recession. They meet | :12:13. | :12:17. | |
to try something different. The policies of austerity are not | :12:17. | :12:22. | |
working. More businesses are failing. They will not be able to | :12:22. | :12:26. | |
get down the deficit and meet the targets that will be set. But not | :12:26. | :12:36. | |
coming out of the euro. Not coming out? No. I think it will inevitably | :12:36. | :12:42. | |
be disorderly and will result in contagion for Spain, Portugal, and | :12:42. | :12:47. | |
that will have a huge impact on the UK economy. We need a different | :12:47. | :12:52. | |
approach. Although you say it could be an orderly exit, the risk of | :12:52. | :12:58. | |
contagion is still great. It is not a risk that Britain wants to take. | :12:58. | :13:02. | |
What does that mean? It means people will lose money on the money | :13:02. | :13:10. | |
they have led to Greece. They have lost it already. Absolutely. Some | :13:11. | :13:15. | |
of those bonds are owned by pensioners and poor people, it is | :13:15. | :13:19. | |
not all rich bankers that will suffer in this. Lots of other | :13:19. | :13:25. | |
not paying their bills. But it is the exposure to countries like | :13:25. | :13:33. | |
Italy and Spain and that will affect us. I don't agree that Spain | :13:33. | :13:37. | |
and Italy will become the next victim. It is already happening. | :13:38. | :13:41. | |
Those contagion effects will get worse in terms of the interest | :13:41. | :13:44. | |
rates or Italian debt and the speculation that Spain and Portugal | :13:44. | :13:50. | |
will be the next country to fall out and I think the impact that | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
would have on the UK economy for people with pensions, for | :13:54. | :13:58. | |
businesses here, would be immense. I think we should try to keep | :13:58. | :14:03. | |
Greece in the euro but we need a different approach. Keep throwing | :14:03. | :14:08. | |
good money after bad? That is effectively what is happening. | :14:09. | :14:15. | |
silly's numbers are not nearly as bad as Portugal and Greece -- Italy. | :14:15. | :14:18. | |
Greece should definitely leave, Portugal should probably leave. | :14:18. | :14:23. | |
They should tidy it up, get rid of the worst cases and then defend the | :14:23. | :14:29. | |
rest. Do you agree? I think it is absolutely certain that Greece will | :14:29. | :14:36. | |
leave the euro eventually. I have written a report saying the ship is | :14:36. | :14:39. | |
going down and I think it might be in time for some cheap summer | :14:39. | :14:46. | |
holidays. Exploiting the misery of the Greeks! That is the key point. | :14:46. | :14:50. | |
The markets know this is not politically sustainable. You cannot | :14:50. | :14:54. | |
impose this level of austerity. Except the markets have rallied. | :14:54. | :15:00. | |
They do this but then they catch up later. There will not be some | :15:00. | :15:03. | |
combined euro fiscal bail-out on the scale required to push this | :15:03. | :15:09. | |
problem away. There will not be the Monetary bail-out, the Germans will | :15:09. | :15:14. | |
not let the ECB to quantitative easing. All we have is backdoor | :15:14. | :15:18. | |
quantitative easing. The ECB is desperately hoping these eurozone | :15:18. | :15:23. | |
banks will then buy public debt but they are not going to do it. Their | :15:23. | :15:26. | |
balance sheets are shot to pieces of this is bespoke in the | :15:26. | :15:34. | |
inevitable. -- because this is postponing the inevitable. What we | :15:34. | :15:38. | |
see on the streets of Greece is extreme hardship, people are | :15:38. | :15:42. | |
starving apparently in parts of the country, they are homeless and have | :15:42. | :15:52. | |
:15:52. | :15:53. | ||
lost their business. That will not And this is what people forget. It | :15:53. | :15:58. | |
seems to me the EU and the IMF are acting like the worst kind of | :15:59. | :16:02. | |
doorstep loan shark, imposing conditions which Greece cannot | :16:02. | :16:10. | |
possibly meet. We have had a cut in the minimum wage by a fifth, wage | :16:10. | :16:16. | |
cuts, pension cuts, ordinary people being made homeless. Actually, | :16:16. | :16:25. | |
would it be better for them to come out and reinstate the drachma? | :16:25. | :16:30. | |
extreme austerity approach is simply not working. You need | :16:30. | :16:33. | |
investment and jobs and industry to get the economy back on its feet. | :16:33. | :16:40. | |
It is Greece today, who will it be tomorrow? If you reintroduce the | :16:40. | :16:42. | |
drachma, the Governor of the bank of Greece can print money. At the | :16:42. | :16:52. | |
:16:52. | :16:53. | ||
moment, he cannot do that, and that is a big, big difference. At the | :16:53. | :17:03. | |
:17:03. | :17:04. | ||
weekend, Ed Balls, was setting out alternatives for the budget next | :17:04. | :17:11. | |
month. Rachel Reeves has been explaining today that Labour would | :17:11. | :17:16. | |
also be tough on public spending. In a speech this morning, she said | :17:16. | :17:19. | |
that for Labour, deficit reduction that for Labour, deficit reduction | :17:19. | :17:29. | |
:17:29. | :17:35. | ||
Of course, you have only just given that speech - there is no | :17:35. | :17:40. | |
difference between you and the Government, then, you are going to | :17:40. | :17:42. | |
complete that job of deficit complete that job of deficit | :17:42. | :17:44. | |
reduction, and you are just as committed to it. We are committed | :17:44. | :17:49. | |
to deficit reduction, but we also believe that the Government's plans | :17:49. | :17:53. | |
have failed, because, of course you need tax increases and spending | :17:53. | :17:56. | |
cuts, but unless you have got people in work paying taxes, then | :17:56. | :18:00. | |
you will not get the deficit down, because you end up paying more out | :18:01. | :18:05. | |
in benefits and getting less in in tax revenue. So we want to get the | :18:05. | :18:10. | |
economy moving again, to get more people into work, paying taxes. But | :18:10. | :18:16. | |
also, we would have to make tough decisions, cutting down on waste, | :18:16. | :18:22. | |
looking at every area of government. Everybody talks about waste, let's | :18:22. | :18:28. | |
go back to the idea of cutting the deficit, because if you are as | :18:28. | :18:34. | |
committed to this as you have said, and they are pretty strong quotes, | :18:34. | :18:39. | |
why are you advocating more borrowing to fund tax cuts? This | :18:39. | :18:43. | |
Government is borrowing more than �150 billion more than they had | :18:43. | :18:49. | |
planned. But that's what you're saying, advocating more borrowing. | :18:49. | :18:53. | |
What we're saying is that the Government are borrowing this extra | :18:53. | :18:56. | |
�150 billion because their plan has failed, because there are more | :18:56. | :19:00. | |
people out of work, and more businesses failing. We are saying, | :19:00. | :19:06. | |
let's have a targeted, temporary stimulus, a tax on bank bonuses, to | :19:06. | :19:09. | |
find jobs for young people, and as a result, we will have the economy | :19:09. | :19:14. | |
growing, more people paying taxes, and paying less out in benefits. | :19:14. | :19:18. | |
But you would then break your own statement, which is that you would | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
be putting up the deficit and the level of borrowing. The Government | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
has failed its own test of balancing the books, that is now | :19:25. | :19:30. | |
accepted by them, as well as everybody else. They have had to | :19:30. | :19:37. | |
report that they have not met their original target, because the Office | :19:37. | :19:40. | |
for Budget Responsibility's forecasts were wrong. I am | :19:40. | :19:44. | |
delighted that Labour are now in agreement that we need to take this | :19:44. | :19:49. | |
seriously. But as Conservatives, we did not come into politics to cut | :19:49. | :19:53. | |
the deficit, we came into politics because we want people to be | :19:53. | :19:57. | |
prosperous, and we happen to believe, and I think we now agree, | :19:57. | :20:01. | |
that if you get the deficit get out of control, it gets in the way of | :20:01. | :20:08. | |
those very important aims. adding �150 billion to that deficit | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
will stop your aims. Yes, I have made it very clear that I would | :20:12. | :20:15. | |
have liked them to have frozen public spending in the first year, | :20:15. | :20:19. | |
rather than increasing it by 5% in cash terms in the first year. | :20:20. | :20:24. | |
Because they did that, and then the growth did not come through, we | :20:24. | :20:27. | |
have got slippage in the numbers. And they have now got to address | :20:27. | :20:32. | |
that. I think the Chancellor will tackle the problem raised by Rachel, | :20:32. | :20:37. | |
that we want more jobs and more growth. That's common ground. Of | :20:37. | :20:42. | |
course we want growth and jobs, it is obvious. Do you agree that we | :20:42. | :20:45. | |
would have had growth, and things would have been better, if, | :20:45. | :20:51. | |
actually, there had been more fiscal discipline, in terms of | :20:51. | :20:54. | |
freezing pay, for example? Everybody agrees that we want to | :20:54. | :20:58. | |
reduce the deficit, the big question is how? Is it going to | :20:58. | :21:02. | |
come out of ordinary people's pay and pensions and public services, | :21:02. | :21:06. | |
or are we going to do something about the frankly obscene levels of | :21:06. | :21:10. | |
tax avoidance and evasion at the top. All parties are committed to | :21:10. | :21:17. | |
that, aren't they? Or certainly, that's what they say. Frankly, this | :21:18. | :21:21. | |
is a big problem, and it can be tackled. We could see more support, | :21:21. | :21:27. | |
I would like to see support for the Robin Hood tax, which would raise | :21:27. | :21:36. | |
�20 billion, by cracking down on financial transactions. But Labour | :21:36. | :21:39. | |
would have done pretty well the same, when it came to cutting | :21:39. | :21:44. | |
public sector jobs, to shrink the public sector, because it was too | :21:44. | :21:48. | |
bloated? When you look at the NHS, for example, the Government are | :21:48. | :21:53. | |
going ahead with a we organisation which is costing �1.8 billion. Half | :21:53. | :21:59. | |
of that money could be used to protect 6,000 nurses over the next | :21:59. | :22:04. | |
six months. -- a re-organisation. That's not going to promote growth, | :22:04. | :22:11. | |
is it? Different choices are being made. Coming back to the issue of | :22:11. | :22:16. | |
growth, that will not actually create growth, the private sector | :22:16. | :22:21. | |
coming through with more jobs would do that. But Ed Balls has said that | :22:21. | :22:28. | |
he wants a cut of 3p in income tax - would that be for higher earners, | :22:28. | :22:35. | |
too? What he has said is that the most targeted way to do this would | :22:35. | :22:40. | |
be to cut VAT back to 17.5%. If the Chancellor does not want to do that, | :22:40. | :22:43. | |
he could cut income tax, he could raise the personal allowance, all | :22:44. | :22:48. | |
of those things would get money into the economy. In terms of | :22:48. | :22:51. | |
businesses, a national insurance holiday for small businesses would | :22:51. | :22:56. | |
help them, at a time when they are struggling to get bank lending. | :22:56. | :23:02. | |
Would any of those things be the magic pill, if you like, in terms | :23:02. | :23:06. | |
of stimulating growth, from a business point of view? Let's just | :23:06. | :23:11. | |
take VAT. I would not think it would be that easy. We do not | :23:11. | :23:15. | |
believe this is going to be a game- changer. Even if it is not a game- | :23:15. | :23:19. | |
changer, do you think it should be done, would it help? I don't think | :23:19. | :23:24. | |
it should. I think at the present time, you need to be convincing the | :23:24. | :23:31. | |
financial markets, were struggling with the fiscal squeeze. I'm saying | :23:31. | :23:34. | |
that if the Government made a different choice, if it was not | :23:34. | :23:38. | |
cutting so far and so fast, we would not have choked off the | :23:38. | :23:47. | |
economic recovery. I think there is a fundamental problem here, this | :23:47. | :23:50. | |
analysis is basically saying, interest rates have got 20, we have | :23:50. | :23:54. | |
got no more options to stimulate the economy, therefore we should | :23:54. | :24:02. | |
use fiscal policy. I think the lesson of the last 30 years is that | :24:02. | :24:11. | |
you do not use fiscal policy to try to fine-tune the economy. The | :24:11. | :24:17. | |
fiscal stimulus you're arguing about is merely a potato gun, | :24:17. | :24:24. | |
whereas the Bank of England has got a bazooka. We are saying, targeted, | :24:24. | :24:29. | |
temporary action, a temporary cut in VAT, a national insurance | :24:29. | :24:33. | |
holiday for small businesses. had had quantitative easing the | :24:33. | :24:42. | |
first time around, -- if we had not had it, the level of GDP would have | :24:42. | :24:51. | |
been 2% the war. You're a tax cutter, so do you have some | :24:51. | :24:55. | |
sympathy with Ed Balls' policy of trying to do exactly that in the | :24:55. | :25:00. | |
budget? No, I am not in favour of borrowing yet more to make a really | :25:00. | :25:04. | |
big tax cut. I would cut the tax rates which I think are now | :25:04. | :25:08. | |
collecting us less revenue, it would seem to be foolish to have | :25:08. | :25:11. | |
moral outrage against people, so much so that you actually collect | :25:12. | :25:15. | |
less money from them, and you drive them away, that would be rather | :25:15. | :25:20. | |
silly. But I think this is a budget for reviewing all public spending | :25:20. | :25:25. | |
once again, and didn't glad that we agree that there are things that | :25:25. | :25:29. | |
can be done to get better value in public spending, but what I think | :25:29. | :25:33. | |
they need to do is to fix the banks. The number one priority I have got | :25:33. | :25:38. | |
is to go in and sort out RBS. We cannot carry on with this | :25:38. | :25:42. | |
Meadowbank pretending it is going to come right. It keeps on losing | :25:42. | :25:50. | |
us money, and it offends people in the process, it seems, as well. -- | :25:50. | :25:58. | |
mega-bank. I think we should get three decent working banks, out in | :25:58. | :26:03. | |
the private sector, lending people money. We have effectively got an | :26:04. | :26:07. | |
investment strike going on, big businesses are sitting on huge cash | :26:07. | :26:13. | |
reserves, equivalent to six% of GDP. They are not investing because they | :26:13. | :26:17. | |
are worried about the bigger economic output. We have got small | :26:17. | :26:20. | |
businesses who are still starved of credit, even from the banks that | :26:20. | :26:25. | |
the taxpayer owns, and we need to get in there. I would keep them as | :26:25. | :26:29. | |
nationalised banks, and actually use them to invest in new jobs and | :26:29. | :26:33. | |
industry. It is an interesting discussion, but not the one we | :26:33. | :26:38. | |
started out on. Now, the Business Secretary, Vince Cable, came under | :26:38. | :26:42. | |
fire in the House of Commons yesterday over his decision to give | :26:43. | :26:52. | |
the job of university access tsar to Professor Les Ebdon. Some MPs | :26:52. | :26:56. | |
are concerned that Professor Ebdon want to see universities admitting | :26:56. | :26:59. | |
more students on the basis of what they might achieve in the future, | :26:59. | :27:02. | |
rather than what they have actually achieved at the time of their | :27:02. | :27:06. | |
application. Does the Secretary of State accept the overwhelming | :27:06. | :27:11. | |
evidence set out in the report today, that shows skewed access to | :27:11. | :27:15. | |
our top universities is not a failure of admissions policy, but a | :27:15. | :27:20. | |
lack of adequate preparation in our secondary schools? To get down to | :27:20. | :27:26. | |
some facts, more than 20 Oxford colleges made no offers to black | :27:26. | :27:31. | |
students for undergraduate courses in 2009, we in one particular | :27:31. | :27:34. | |
college not having admitted a single black student for five years. | :27:34. | :27:40. | |
Meanwhile, four independent schools have sent more pupils to Oxbridge | :27:40. | :27:45. | |
than 2000 state schools. How can the Secretary of State say that he | :27:45. | :27:48. | |
believes in the principles of university autonomy and admissions | :27:48. | :27:54. | |
on merit, when his appointee says he is prepared to threaten | :27:54. | :27:58. | |
universities with what he chose to describe as the nuclear option of | :27:58. | :28:03. | |
fines and reduced funding if they do not meet agreed targets? I know | :28:03. | :28:07. | |
that the Honourable Gentleman has been very eloquent on this subject, | :28:07. | :28:11. | |
and is anxious that we do not introduce prescriptive quotas for | :28:11. | :28:15. | |
admissions to universities, that is his primary concern. And let me be | :28:16. | :28:19. | |
very clear that that is not government policy, it is not the | :28:19. | :28:24. | |
policy on offer. It is the independence of universities in | :28:24. | :28:32. | |
respect of admissions, and that is enshrined in law. And Professor | :28:32. | :28:35. | |
Ebdon has gone firmly on the record in saying that he will respect the | :28:35. | :28:40. | |
diversity of the sector, and institutional autonomy. We can get | :28:40. | :28:44. | |
more on this from our correspondent, in the central lobby. Yes, you get | :28:44. | :28:50. | |
a real sense from that montage of the debate which has surrounded the | :28:50. | :28:53. | |
appointment of Professor Ebdon, not just the pros and cons of the man | :28:53. | :29:03. | |
himself, but the underlying issues. With me here, a Conservative MP and | :29:03. | :29:09. | |
a Labour MP. You're the chair of the Education Select Committee - | :29:09. | :29:12. | |
give me some sense of what you make of the appointment of Professor | :29:12. | :29:19. | |
Ebdon, Graham Stuart? Well, I was disappointed, because I think the | :29:19. | :29:22. | |
Secretary of State overruled Parliament on his appointment. And | :29:22. | :29:26. | |
that was unwelcome. But going forward, we have got to make sure | :29:26. | :29:30. | |
we focus on the issues which do block access certainly to our top | :29:30. | :29:33. | |
universities for children from the poorest homes, and that is not | :29:33. | :29:37. | |
going to be about some social engineering exercise at the | :29:37. | :29:40. | |
University gate, it is going to be about raising standards, making | :29:40. | :29:44. | |
sure you have the right subject choices and the right support, so | :29:44. | :29:52. | |
that every child with the attitude can get on in life. Katy Clark, you | :29:52. | :29:56. | |
sat on the committee which was scrutinising the appointment of | :29:56. | :30:00. | |
Professor Ebdon, what did you make of it? I supported his appointment. | :30:00. | :30:04. | |
There were four Conservative members who voted in favour of | :30:04. | :30:07. | |
opposing this particular appointment, but the Labour members | :30:07. | :30:12. | |
were supportive. I think he is a strong candidate. I think some of | :30:12. | :30:15. | |
the issues that he has been taking forward are what are required. For | :30:15. | :30:20. | |
example, if you look at what he is doing at his own institution, he is | :30:20. | :30:24. | |
prioritising things like generous bursaries, the kind of action we | :30:24. | :30:27. | |
need to encourage people from disadvantaged backgrounds to get to | :30:27. | :30:36. | |
university. You're a member of this new Conservative group on fair | :30:36. | :30:42. | |
access - tell us in short what you hope that group can achieve. What I | :30:42. | :30:45. | |
think everybody across Parliament agrees is that we want to do more | :30:45. | :30:53. | |
to support bright kids, from poor backgrounds, to get into university. | :30:53. | :30:57. | |
What we see the last government having done, and this government | :30:57. | :31:01. | |
having done, is to focus on universities as if they are the | :31:01. | :31:05. | |
problem, as if there is some kind of snobbish selection process going | :31:05. | :31:10. | |
on at the University gate - we do not believe that is the problem. | :31:10. | :31:13. | |
The universities have no incentive other than to attract the brightest | :31:13. | :31:18. | |
and best, from wherever they come. But we need to address the lack of | :31:18. | :31:22. | |
social mobility on the real issues, which is about looking at issues | :31:22. | :31:25. | |
like subject choices, like the support which is available, and | :31:25. | :31:29. | |
making sure we have the right financial support. We must focus on | :31:29. | :31:35. | |
the real barriers, not artificial, politically created ones. Are the | :31:35. | :31:45. | |
:31:45. | :31:46. | ||
Some of the policies that this government is coming up with, | :31:46. | :31:52. | |
getting rid of the educational maintenance allowance and troubling | :31:52. | :31:58. | |
tuition fees, on not the solutions. We need to get support so we can | :31:58. | :32:04. | |
get disadvantaged students into a more prestigious universities. | :32:04. | :32:11. | |
seems you on the same page but from different perspectives? The results | :32:11. | :32:14. | |
of A-level from people in comprehensive schools have been | :32:14. | :32:19. | |
improving but not as quickly as those from selective state and | :32:19. | :32:23. | |
independent schools. Our schools are not delivering in the way we | :32:23. | :32:28. | |
would like them too. Pupils with worse grades from state schools do | :32:28. | :32:33. | |
just as well at university as those from private school who have | :32:33. | :32:37. | |
managed to get higher grades because of their paid education. | :32:37. | :32:45. | |
Not at Cambridge... Thank you. Plenty more on this debate from the | :32:45. | :32:47. | |
Select Committee in the coming months. | :32:47. | :32:50. | |
Thank you. Last year saw mass protests by public sector workers | :32:50. | :32:58. | |
over their pensions. We lost more days to strike action as a result | :32:58. | :33:03. | |
of the demos in November than at any time since the early '80s. Some | :33:03. | :33:06. | |
people think that heralds a new age of industrial unrest, with even | :33:06. | :33:10. | |
more stoppages on the way. And yet union membership is declining. So | :33:10. | :33:12. | |
just what is the state of industrial relations in this | :33:12. | :33:16. | |
country? Do we need tougher anti- strike laws? Or do the unions need | :33:16. | :33:20. | |
to reform in order to stay relevant in the 21st Century? | :33:20. | :33:26. | |
Old core union power, when the weather always seemed that and the | :33:26. | :33:36. | |
:33:36. | :33:37. | ||
situations were fuzzy. These days, the struggle goes on. We should now | :33:37. | :33:42. | |
rapidly moved to a position for a strike ballot if there is not for | :33:42. | :33:47. | |
the movement. This is a meeting of senior officials from the Fire | :33:47. | :33:51. | |
Brigades Union. They are deciding whether to ballot members for | :33:51. | :33:56. | |
strike action over changes to pensions. That issue has already | :33:56. | :34:01. | |
caused industrial unrest so is this the dawning of a new era of union | :34:01. | :34:05. | |
militancy? A quarter of the working population are members of the Union | :34:05. | :34:10. | |
and in the public sector it is more than 50%, but numbers are falling. | :34:10. | :34:19. | |
In the 80s, there were more than 30 million members. It is half that. | :34:19. | :34:23. | |
But 2011 saw the highest number of days lost to strikes since the poll | :34:23. | :34:28. | |
tax. We are seeing an unprecedented wave of industrial action and I | :34:28. | :34:33. | |
think it is time we looked at serious reform to separate the | :34:33. | :34:37. | |
moderate union leaders who tried to represent their members responsibly | :34:37. | :34:43. | |
and the hardline militants, for whom there is no compromises. | :34:43. | :34:46. | |
official government position is that while strike law is under | :34:46. | :34:50. | |
review, it is not on the cards at the moment. If you take public | :34:50. | :34:55. | |
sector pensions out of the equation, it is debatable how militant we | :34:55. | :35:04. | |
have become. In 2009, France lost 100 days to strikes. We lost 19th. | :35:04. | :35:09. | |
The we are not seeing a huge rise of militancy. That is not to say | :35:09. | :35:14. | |
there are no concerns but it shows how responsible trade unions are in | :35:14. | :35:19. | |
this country. If you believe in free trade unionism, you except | :35:19. | :35:22. | |
there will occasionally be industrial disputes and trying to | :35:22. | :35:26. | |
make it more difficult for a union to ballot their members is asking | :35:26. | :35:33. | |
for more strikes without ballots and that is no good for anyone. | :35:33. | :35:36. | |
despite real conflict with the government over public sector | :35:36. | :35:40. | |
pensions, union membership continues to fall from its | :35:40. | :35:45. | |
historical highs in the 1980s. In the private sector, just 14% of | :35:45. | :35:51. | |
workers are in a union. So how does the movement make itself relevant? | :35:51. | :35:55. | |
We haven't yet found a way to give workers a true voice in the | :35:55. | :35:59. | |
workplace. I think that is an important thing. People feel | :35:59. | :36:04. | |
frustrated that their voice is not heard. The unions are not doing | :36:04. | :36:10. | |
enough there. Four unions, times may have changed but values haven't | :36:10. | :36:15. | |
-- for the unions. Defending those beliefs however? That may need a | :36:16. | :36:22. | |
whole new set of tools. Graham Leach, let's pick up on what | :36:22. | :36:28. | |
Alan Johnson said. Not a huge rise in militancy. He is right in the | :36:28. | :36:33. | |
sense that this is a public sector issue, not a private sector issued, | :36:33. | :36:40. | |
and companies do not have a big issue. The problems we saw with | :36:40. | :36:44. | |
unions hit in the private sector in the 70s and 80s has basically | :36:44. | :36:48. | |
disappeared so there is a huge change there. What I think as well | :36:48. | :36:52. | |
with change in the future is the volumes in the public sector | :36:52. | :36:57. | |
because we have already seen the Chancellor has embarked on an | :36:57. | :37:00. | |
investigation for the potential of decentralising public sector pay. | :37:00. | :37:05. | |
What has happened in the private sector in terms of union activity | :37:05. | :37:09. | |
will ultimately have been in the public sector. Are you saying we | :37:09. | :37:17. | |
don't need tougher and destroyed laws? -- and he strike. I think | :37:17. | :37:21. | |
this is fundamentally a public sector problem, not a private | :37:21. | :37:29. | |
sector problem. The government has talked about the idea of tougher | :37:29. | :37:33. | |
strike laws for the reason that the ball is still pretty low, they feel, | :37:33. | :37:42. | |
in order to get a ballot to go on strike. I disagree. Funnily enough! | :37:42. | :37:48. | |
In fact the public as you well know, even the lowest opinion polls after | :37:48. | :37:55. | |
the November public service strikes, showed that 60% or more of the | :37:55. | :38:01. | |
public supported the strike against having to pay more, work longer and | :38:01. | :38:05. | |
get less pensions. I don't think that the government can drive a | :38:05. | :38:10. | |
wedge between the unions and the public on this one. When it comes | :38:10. | :38:15. | |
to strike ballots, let's remember, this is a human right, to withdraw | :38:15. | :38:20. | |
your labour. It is recognised in international law. People never | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
take strike action likely. Why should this ballot have a threshold | :38:24. | :38:29. | |
that politicians do not apply to themselves? Let's remember because | :38:29. | :38:34. | |
-- Conservatives won 23% of all of those entitled to vote at the last | :38:34. | :38:38. | |
election. I don't think anybody would suggest they should not be in | :38:38. | :38:43. | |
the coalition government today. would unions react if the | :38:43. | :38:47. | |
government made it harder? I think we would be looking for public | :38:47. | :38:51. | |
support to fight a very big campaign on this because it would | :38:51. | :38:55. | |
be profoundly anti-democratic and actually it would be bad for | :38:55. | :38:58. | |
business and bad for the economy in the long run. Remember all the good | :38:58. | :39:04. | |
work that unions do. We create healthier and safer workplaces, we | :39:04. | :39:08. | |
help workers get learning and skills, we resolve issues, we | :39:08. | :39:12. | |
resolve grievances in the workplace and keep employees out of | :39:12. | :39:17. | |
employment tribunals and that has to be good. There is a risk of | :39:17. | :39:22. | |
further intensification of union activity in the public sector in | :39:22. | :39:26. | |
the face of the pensions argument and that leads to a backlash from | :39:26. | :39:29. | |
the electorate and ultimately it could be self-defeating from the | :39:29. | :39:33. | |
unions because if they decentralise public sector pay, it fundamentally | :39:34. | :39:38. | |
transforms the role of unions in the public sector. I think you are | :39:38. | :39:42. | |
misreading public opinion. People believe that the balance of power | :39:42. | :39:47. | |
has swung far too far in favour of the banks and big business and | :39:47. | :39:52. | |
ordinary people need to be protected. Membership is on the | :39:52. | :39:59. | |
slide. But it has been rising since the strike. But generally it has | :39:59. | :40:02. | |
been coming down. We have a membership application forms coming | :40:02. | :40:10. | |
in! I will take your word for it. Theresa May has announced that the | :40:10. | :40:14. | |
UK Border Agency will be breaking up. The move comes over Brodie | :40:14. | :40:18. | |
Clark -- after Brodie Clark resigned last year over claims he | :40:18. | :40:24. | |
had relaxed checks. The Home Secretary set up the findings of an | :40:24. | :40:34. | |
:40:34. | :40:36. | ||
investigation into border security The report reveals that security | :40:36. | :40:40. | |
checks carried out at the border have been suspended regularly and | :40:40. | :40:47. | |
applied inconsistently since at least 2007. In June of that year, | :40:47. | :40:51. | |
ministers accepted a policy that allowed the suspension of all index | :40:51. | :40:55. | |
checks on certain health and safety grounds but the report found that | :40:56. | :41:00. | |
those cheques were suspended on many occasions for other reasons. | :41:00. | :41:04. | |
It is time for her to stop hiding, to take responsibility for things | :41:04. | :41:08. | |
that have happened on her watch, for the unclear instructions from | :41:08. | :41:12. | |
her office, for the policy decisions to downgrade border | :41:12. | :41:16. | |
controls, to the failure to monitor what was going on and for her | :41:16. | :41:21. | |
failure to take responsibility now. This mess got worse on her watch | :41:21. | :41:26. | |
every month that went by. Isn't what the country wants is not a lot | :41:26. | :41:30. | |
of huff and puff from the opposition and the front bench and | :41:30. | :41:34. | |
point-scoring, what they want to know is that ministers are now | :41:34. | :41:39. | |
taking action to make the Borders more secure. That is the important | :41:39. | :41:44. | |
point. The Home Secretary have set out what regular performers | :41:44. | :41:49. | |
assessment there will be to ensure they do not fall back into an at | :41:49. | :41:53. | |
hoc events driven approach to board as security that was so prevalent | :41:53. | :41:57. | |
under the previous government. occasions where backbench members | :41:57. | :42:01. | |
on the opposition benches have not seen a report that is subject to | :42:01. | :42:05. | |
the statement, we depend on a comprehensive and non-partisan | :42:05. | :42:09. | |
presentation of the report by the minister responsible. The Home | :42:09. | :42:12. | |
Secretary has given us the impression that the report is in no | :42:12. | :42:16. | |
way critical of ministers, yet we have heard suggestions that the | :42:16. | :42:22. | |
report does contain criticism of a lack of clarity in the language | :42:22. | :42:24. | |
used by ministers in their instructions to the Border Agency. | :42:24. | :42:30. | |
Will she tell the House, is there criticism and if so, what she | :42:30. | :42:35. | |
apologise for the Department's failings? In a number of aspects, | :42:35. | :42:40. | |
the report does indeed refer to the issue of the necessity of greater | :42:40. | :42:44. | |
clarity of communications of all sorts that were taking place in | :42:44. | :42:50. | |
relation to what was happening at the border. | :42:50. | :42:56. | |
John Vine wrote the report. He joins us now. Welcome to the | :42:56. | :43:02. | |
programme. Was this a ministerial or managerial cock-up? It was a | :43:02. | :43:06. | |
combination of both. What I have found is that the decision making | :43:06. | :43:12. | |
by ministers in relation to the suspension of the Czechs going back | :43:12. | :43:18. | |
to 2007 was variable -- checks. Sometimes people were notified | :43:18. | :43:23. | |
about what was happening. Sometimes suspensions took place without | :43:23. | :43:28. | |
notification from ministers. There was a lack of clarity in | :43:28. | :43:31. | |
submissions to ministers and a lack of clarity in language coming from | :43:31. | :43:36. | |
the ministers, and there was also a lack of clarity in the way that was | :43:36. | :43:40. | |
communicated down to the work force so that there was an inconsistency | :43:40. | :43:46. | |
of application cheques that most -- at most of the courts I visited. | :43:46. | :43:50. | |
was more than inconsistency. I read some of your reports and it sounds | :43:51. | :43:57. | |
chaotic in parts over that period. Basically the lack of communication | :43:57. | :44:00. | |
and clarity, people carrying out orders they had not been asked to | :44:00. | :44:07. | |
do, it sounds chaotic. Yes. There were a number of important checks. | :44:07. | :44:11. | |
The warnings index check is the most important and identify whether | :44:12. | :44:18. | |
somebody is wanted by the police. That was suspended on over 350 | :44:19. | :44:23. | |
occasions. Far more occasions than ministers and senior agencies | :44:23. | :44:29. | |
realised. That was mainly through health and safety grounds. What I | :44:29. | :44:32. | |
identified in the report is that health and safety itself was not | :44:32. | :44:37. | |
properly defined. For example, coaches backing onto a French | :44:37. | :44:41. | |
motorway to try to get through the juxtaposed controls were often | :44:41. | :44:46. | |
designated by immigration officers as the health and safety risks. | :44:46. | :44:52. | |
There were other examples where the criteria for suspension of CQ at | :44:52. | :44:57. | |
identification checks was not properly defined and there was not | :44:57. | :45:03. | |
operating policy for that -- suspension of clear identification | :45:03. | :45:09. | |
checks. So we will never know what risks posed? No. The risk must be | :45:09. | :45:13. | |
in perspective. When the identification checks were | :45:13. | :45:18. | |
suspended, warnings index checks were generally carried out, so the | :45:18. | :45:21. | |
risk for the border must be put into perspective, but a very | :45:21. | :45:25. | |
important check that was considered by ministers and officials to be | :45:25. | :45:31. | |
mandatory, there was no operating policy. The record-keeping of | :45:32. | :45:38. | |
border officials' reports was very poor indeed. This came from 2007, | :45:38. | :45:44. | |
so the previous government as well as. The minister's' decision-making | :45:44. | :45:48. | |
giving back to that period, yes. I mention both the previous | :45:48. | :45:51. | |
government and the current government and I outlined where | :45:51. | :45:54. | |
ministers were involved and where they were not involved but there | :45:54. | :46:00. | |
seems to be a lack of clarity about the operational autonomy of the | :46:00. | :46:03. | |
agency with regard to ministers and I have recommended that ministers | :46:03. | :46:07. | |
decide the level of authority required for a suspension of any | :46:07. | :46:11. | |
cheque. How much pressure did you find from ministers for the queues | :46:11. | :46:16. | |
to be reduced? Managing the queues is very important and what | :46:16. | :46:20. | |
immigration officers are trying to do is manage that as well as | :46:20. | :46:30. | |
:46:30. | :46:34. | ||
perform their function in checking The government decided for 100 % | :46:34. | :46:39. | |
checking in 2007. Since that time, there were other requests for | :46:39. | :46:41. | |
suspension of cheques, in particular circumstances. Over a | :46:41. | :46:45. | |
period of time, what has happened is that the authority levels for | :46:46. | :46:50. | |
those suspensions had become muddled and unclear. There needs to | :46:50. | :46:55. | |
be a new minimum standard for border checks, a new framework, and | :46:55. | :46:58. | |
if the 12 recommendations I have made in the report are carried out, | :46:58. | :47:01. | |
then didn't confident it will improve the level of border | :47:01. | :47:06. | |
security. And the former Home Secretary David? Is with me now. I | :47:06. | :47:10. | |
should point out, you were not Home Secretary in the period that was | :47:10. | :47:14. | |
being talk about, but that does not let you off completely. The Home | :47:14. | :47:18. | |
Office is a poisoned chalice, isn't it? These things can always | :47:18. | :47:25. | |
happen... Yes, I have a great deal of sympathy with Damian Green and | :47:25. | :47:35. | |
:47:35. | :47:35. | ||
Theresa May, or I would have, if the Conservative government had not | :47:35. | :47:39. | |
been so venomous against ministers in the last government, because | :47:39. | :47:45. | |
these are difficult issues. Politicians need to be clear that | :47:45. | :47:50. | |
they are in charge of the policies, but there was a bigger issue here, | :47:50. | :47:55. | |
which is even more important in the long term, and that is getting a | :47:55. | :47:58. | |
clarification as to how responsible ministers are for management. | :47:58. | :48:06. | |
Because in government, I fear to say that very often, they're told | :48:06. | :48:09. | |
not to be, and then they blame officials, then officials say, | :48:09. | :48:14. | |
you're blaming us, and we go round in circles. The public want to know, | :48:14. | :48:20. | |
who's responsible, who's accountable? But the row between | :48:20. | :48:24. | |
Brodie Clark and Theresa May came to the fore, but that has been | :48:24. | :48:28. | |
played out from time immemorial in the Home Office, hasn't it? Is it | :48:28. | :48:34. | |
not the case that the UK Border Agency was unfit for purpose, and | :48:34. | :48:40. | |
it was set up in Labour's time? was set up in 2007, suspensions did | :48:40. | :48:46. | |
not take place until 2009. But the number has risen every year since | :48:46. | :48:52. | |
then. We ended up with a staggering 350, most of them unauthorised. In | :48:52. | :48:56. | |
January last year, the Immigration Minister, Damian Green, actually | :48:56. | :49:01. | |
did authorise changes. But they were misunderstood. I think that's | :49:01. | :49:05. | |
correct. I think they were not clear enough, the policy directives | :49:05. | :49:09. | |
were not care enough, and the information was not clear enough, | :49:09. | :49:13. | |
but when I ask Theresa May last November in the House of Commons | :49:13. | :49:17. | |
about other ministers having authorised these suspensions, she | :49:17. | :49:22. | |
did not answer my question. Well, Jon Leyne has now answered the | :49:22. | :49:28. | |
question, and the answer was, yes, ministers did. Do you think it is a | :49:28. | :49:33. | |
good idea to do this just before the Olympics? No, I do not think | :49:33. | :49:39. | |
any structural change is a good idea just before the Olympics. It | :49:39. | :49:46. | |
interrupt what is already in place. I think things have already started | :49:46. | :49:51. | |
to be put right, and they need to get on with that. I have no | :49:51. | :49:54. | |
objection in the long term to them splitting it, the real issue is | :49:54. | :49:58. | |
what we do between now and August. I think the public would understand | :49:58. | :50:02. | |
that in July and early August, we are going to have the most enormous | :50:02. | :50:12. | |
:50:12. | :50:13. | ||
flows through our airports. And we are not good at change. In terms of | :50:13. | :50:19. | |
the risk posed, when the public hears that possibly hundreds of | :50:19. | :50:22. | |
thousands of people coming through the borders, whether they be | :50:22. | :50:27. | |
students who had not had proper clearance, or people in the wider | :50:27. | :50:31. | |
European economic Area, coming in without any checks, is that a wise | :50:31. | :50:36. | |
thing for ministers ever to have advocated, even in a pilot form? | :50:36. | :50:40. | |
No,, but if you're going to cut by more than 5,000 the number of | :50:40. | :50:43. | |
people working in the agency, you're going to end up with these | :50:43. | :50:49. | |
crises. I would appeal to the Government, think again, our | :50:49. | :50:52. | |
borders are so important, the immigration policy is so critical | :50:52. | :50:56. | |
to the public, that continuing with these massive reductions is | :50:56. | :51:00. | |
inevitably going to end up with managers having to manage, and if | :51:00. | :51:04. | |
they have to do that by suspending what were critical checks, then we | :51:04. | :51:12. | |
are all at risk. Except that there were similar pilots put into place | :51:12. | :51:18. | |
by Labour. Yes, there were six in 2009. I would like to believe that | :51:18. | :51:21. | |
ministers now know what's going on, I'm not holding my breath. | :51:21. | :51:25. | |
Certainly, in the case of Theresa May, she seems to have got away | :51:25. | :51:30. | |
without being mortally wounded, although Scott on this occasion. It | :51:30. | :51:34. | |
is something I am familiar with, because every single Home Secretary | :51:34. | :51:38. | |
in recent history has hit the buffers at one point or another. | :51:38. | :51:45. | |
have to leave it there, thank you very much. The short walk from | :51:45. | :51:48. | |
Andrew Lansley's office to Downing Street yesterday turned into | :51:48. | :51:53. | |
something of an ordeal. It is every spin doctor's worst nightmare, what | :51:53. | :51:56. | |
to do when you're minister gets confronted by a member of the | :51:56. | :51:59. | |
public. It can be even worse when they are in a scrum of angry | :52:00. | :52:03. | |
protesters. Andrew Lansley tried politeness, but that did not seem | :52:03. | :52:07. | |
to work. He is not the First Minister to have this problem. | :52:08. | :52:10. | |
Here's a reminder of some other politicians getting into trouble | :52:10. | :52:18. | |
with members of the public. Would you like to tell me what you're | :52:18. | :52:23. | |
going to do to provide those people with better facilities? That's | :52:23. | :52:27. | |
exactly what we're going to do. is appalling, if you would just | :52:27. | :52:33. | |
like to go and have a look at it. am very sorry about it. No, you're | :52:33. | :52:37. | |
not very sorry, if you work, you would do something about it. You're | :52:38. | :52:41. | |
saying that, but all these eastern Europeans which are coming in, | :52:41. | :52:46. | |
where are they coming from? What your manifesto says is that you | :52:47. | :52:50. | |
want to reverse the bias towards the inclusion of children in | :52:50. | :52:54. | |
mainstream schools, that's what your manifesto says. I could not | :52:54. | :52:59. | |
feel more passionate about the subject. I understand that. But I'm | :52:59. | :53:02. | |
telling you, it is the wrong way to go about it, you're not | :53:02. | :53:12. | |
:53:12. | :53:13. | ||
representing the needs of children in mainstream education. You're a | :53:13. | :53:23. | |
:53:23. | :53:28. | ||
Well, we have three guests to discuss what should have been done, | :53:28. | :53:34. | |
Penny Mordaunt, Mark Littlewood and Paul Richards. What was Andrew | :53:34. | :53:38. | |
Lansley trying to achieve by walking into that scrum? In those | :53:38. | :53:42. | |
kind of situations, there is a very limited amount you can do. You can | :53:42. | :53:46. | |
go in through the back door. But that is not what you want to do. | :53:46. | :53:50. | |
you were a spin doctor, let's visualise, Number Ten Downing | :53:50. | :53:53. | |
Street is here, OFFA House is pretty well opposite, you can see | :53:53. | :53:58. | |
what's going on, would you not decide, you know what, Andrew | :53:58. | :54:03. | |
Lansley, let's go in the quiet way? I would not, actually, because that | :54:03. | :54:10. | |
becomes a story in itself. I think you can spend a lot of time | :54:10. | :54:16. | |
worrying about these sorts of things. I think it is very complex, | :54:16. | :54:19. | |
the types of situation you might find yourself in. Somebody who has | :54:19. | :54:23. | |
got a story to tell, who's genuinely upset, and you can engage | :54:23. | :54:29. | |
with them, or it might be somebody who's just there to make trouble. | :54:29. | :54:34. | |
It was a public relations disaster, wasn't it? Yes, pretty much, I | :54:34. | :54:37. | |
think he handled it pretty well in the end, but she he should not have | :54:37. | :54:41. | |
been in that situation. You would not have let him be in that | :54:41. | :54:45. | |
situation? Correct, I would have said, this would be about the worst | :54:45. | :54:49. | |
sort of coverage he could get for his reforms. What is interesting is | :54:49. | :54:54. | |
that he has been off the air waves. You have to make sure that you are | :54:54. | :54:58. | |
the spokesman going to all of the Sunday programmes, but in fact, he | :54:58. | :55:03. | |
ran for cover. He could get his ideas across much better by doing | :55:03. | :55:07. | |
that, by taking to the airwaves, but not being hijacked by | :55:08. | :55:12. | |
protesters. What would you have done? I would not have allowed it | :55:12. | :55:17. | |
to happen, I have stood in that window, in OFFA House, advising the | :55:17. | :55:20. | |
Secretary of State not to go anywhere near the protesters, there | :55:20. | :55:24. | |
is a perfectly good back door. You do not go and get hijacked like | :55:24. | :55:32. | |
this. It looks terrible. Let's have a little look at those pictures | :55:32. | :55:40. | |
again, and talk about what he should have done. What was he able | :55:40. | :55:49. | |
to do once he was in that situation. A lot -- I am not letting you go, | :55:49. | :55:55. | |
no. She is having a real go at him. You said he handled it rather well, | :55:55. | :56:03. | |
once he was there? Yes, otherwise he would be there for an hour or so. | :56:03. | :56:07. | |
I think you can say, I'm terribly sorry, I have got to go to a | :56:07. | :56:12. | |
meeting, I will meet you afterwards. But she said, I am not letting you | :56:12. | :56:21. | |
go. She is a good Unison union member, she knows what she's doing. | :56:21. | :56:25. | |
But it just looks awful that the public are now haranguing Cabinet | :56:25. | :56:29. | |
ministers over this health issue. But it can happen. We saw the | :56:29. | :56:35. | |
pictures of Tony Blair. Tony was desperate to get off camera, he was | :56:35. | :56:39. | |
saying to her time and again, step inside. But she did not, she said, | :56:39. | :56:43. | |
I want to discuss it right here, knowing full well that it was on- | :56:43. | :56:53. | |
:56:53. | :56:54. | ||
camera. Coming back to your point, is there a case that actually they | :56:54. | :56:57. | |
should never come into contact with the public and those who oppose | :56:57. | :57:02. | |
what they're doing, is it a risk worth taking? I think it is, I | :57:02. | :57:05. | |
think people feel less of politicians who are not prepared to | :57:05. | :57:09. | |
go and meet them where the rubber hits the road. Shooting in the back | :57:09. | :57:14. | |
door is not the way to go. I think Andrew handled it well, he tried to | :57:14. | :57:17. | |
engage with the person. Clearly she was not up for having a | :57:17. | :57:23. | |
conversation. Do you rehearse it with ministers? If they are going | :57:23. | :57:26. | |
into these sorts of situations, do you do little role plays and | :57:26. | :57:33. | |
things? I think as a politician, you have either got it or you | :57:33. | :57:39. | |
haven't, no amount of preparation... Who has got it? Cameron is very | :57:39. | :57:46. | |
good at defusing the situation. The problem is that the television | :57:46. | :57:49. | |
pictures make it look like these are ordinary members of the public, | :57:49. | :57:55. | |
they are not, these are almost professional protesters. Not always, | :57:55. | :57:58. | |
but... If Andrew Lansley want to walk around the high street in his | :57:58. | :58:02. | |
town, meeting people, that's one thing, but you have no -- but you | :58:02. | :58:06. | |
know you have got organised opponents in this case. Which shows | :58:06. | :58:13. | |
a bit of naivety. She was not haranguing him, she was putting | :58:13. | :58:18. | |
forward some sensible views. One strategy is the masochism strategy | :58:18. | :58:24. | |
which Blair used to adopt, you confront your worst opponents, | :58:24. | :58:28. | |
someone whose daughter has been killed in the war, and you so cut | :58:28. | :58:32. | |
the anger, engage with them at that level. But that is very different | :58:32. | :58:36. | |
from what has been happening with the scrum of reporters, the front | :58:36. | :58:40. | |
page of the Daily Mirror showing an old lady haranguing a Minister, who | :58:40. | :58:47. | |
looks out of touch, it is a disaster. Do you think it will be | :58:47. | :58:52. |