Browse content similar to 27/02/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Good afternoon. Welcome to the Daily Politics. Put down that Oscar, | 0:00:32 | 0:00:35 | |
Meryl, and pay attention please, to the real cut and thrust of | 0:00:35 | 0:00:38 | |
Westminster politics. There is more trouble for the Government in the | 0:00:38 | 0:00:42 | |
House of Lords over plans to reform the NHS. And now the Royal College | 0:00:42 | 0:00:47 | |
of Surgeons is reconsidering its support for too. How many local | 0:00:47 | 0:00:49 | |
authorities will defy the Government and raise council tax? | 0:00:49 | 0:00:54 | |
And what - if any - punishment might await those which do? George | 0:00:55 | 0:00:58 | |
Osborne comes out fighting against those who want him to spend money | 0:00:58 | 0:01:00 | |
promoting growth in next month's budget. Britain's run out of money, | 0:01:00 | 0:01:05 | |
he says! And, if your political career goes off the rails, how | 0:01:05 | 0:01:14 | |
should you best go about organising All that in the next hour. And | 0:01:14 | 0:01:17 | |
braving the slings and arrows of political fortune, with us this | 0:01:17 | 0:01:27 | |
0:01:27 | 0:01:34 | ||
Monday is the former minister for deregulation, Neil Hamilton. Best | 0:01:34 | 0:01:37 | |
known for the whole Cash for Honours saga, he is now back in | 0:01:37 | 0:01:40 | |
politics with the UK Independence Party. So, if you have any thoughts | 0:01:40 | 0:01:43 | |
or comments on anything we are discussing, then you can tweet your | 0:01:43 | 0:01:46 | |
comments. But first, the German parliament will vote today on | 0:01:46 | 0:01:49 | |
whether to approve the second bail- out for Greece, which was agreed | 0:01:49 | 0:01:51 | |
last week by eurozone finance ministers. There are some critics | 0:01:51 | 0:01:54 | |
of the deal in Chancellor Merkel's own ruling coalition. However, she | 0:01:54 | 0:01:57 | |
is expected to get the votes she needs with opposition support. The | 0:01:57 | 0:02:00 | |
German parliament will decide whether to approve the 130 billion | 0:02:00 | 0:02:02 | |
euro rescue package agreed last week. But one of Chancellor | 0:02:02 | 0:02:04 | |
Merkel's own ministers has suggested today that Greece's | 0:02:04 | 0:02:06 | |
chances of regenerating and becoming competitive are definitely | 0:02:06 | 0:02:12 | |
greater outside the eurozone than in. And here, George Osborne has | 0:02:12 | 0:02:15 | |
warned that we have run out of money and that any tax cuts would | 0:02:15 | 0:02:19 | |
have to be paid for. There has been speculation on whether the | 0:02:19 | 0:02:21 | |
Chancellor will help low earners by raising the personal allowance for | 0:02:21 | 0:02:25 | |
income tax. And it looks unlikely that motorists will get any extra | 0:02:25 | 0:02:28 | |
help, the Chancellor says he has already taken action to cancel | 0:02:28 | 0:02:33 | |
planned fuel duty increases. Let's get more on this with Stephen Evans, | 0:02:33 | 0:02:42 | |
who is in Berlin. The Germans may not like it. It looks as though | 0:02:42 | 0:02:49 | |
they will vote through the second bail out for Greece. Chancellor | 0:02:49 | 0:02:53 | |
Merkel will gets the vote so she needs from the opposition parties. | 0:02:53 | 0:02:59 | |
They met on Friday and said they would do the deed. The doubters but | 0:02:59 | 0:03:03 | |
in her own party will be outnumbered, no matter how many of | 0:03:04 | 0:03:10 | |
them there are. You cannot deny that there is rising scepticism | 0:03:10 | 0:03:16 | |
about the whole thing. The Finance Minister wrote to Members of | 0:03:16 | 0:03:19 | |
Parliament over the weekend, basically saying there is no | 0:03:19 | 0:03:27 | |
guarantee that this will work. That is a change of stance. If you look | 0:03:27 | 0:03:34 | |
at this newspaper, it is saying pay-day for Greece, billions full | 0:03:34 | 0:03:39 | |
Greece. Halt! It has thrown its weight behind the sceptics. If you | 0:03:39 | 0:03:44 | |
are a politician, you will take note. If they're going to go ahead | 0:03:44 | 0:03:49 | |
with this, it sounds as though the Germans will need to swallow it. | 0:03:49 | 0:03:55 | |
Them is a hint there could be more money down the line for Greece. -- | 0:03:55 | 0:04:00 | |
there is a hint. The Finance Minister is saying, do not think | 0:04:00 | 0:04:04 | |
this is the end was that the tone in the past has always been, we do | 0:04:04 | 0:04:11 | |
this deal and that we seek light at the end of the time off. The 10 | 0:04:11 | 0:04:17 | |
this time is, of the alternatives are worse. We want you to go for it. | 0:04:17 | 0:04:22 | |
It is not the end of the matter and we do not guarantee success. The | 0:04:22 | 0:04:26 | |
bigger question beyond this vote is whether the Germans agreed to | 0:04:26 | 0:04:34 | |
increase the size of the bail out fund. There was the G20 over the | 0:04:34 | 0:04:37 | |
weekend basically saying the Europeans have to put more into | 0:04:37 | 0:04:44 | |
their own bail out fund. The implications are that the IMF, for | 0:04:44 | 0:04:48 | |
example, where Britain could have the say, with then think about | 0:04:48 | 0:04:52 | |
putting in more money themselves but the Europeans with need to do | 0:04:52 | 0:04:57 | |
their bit first. That is the next battle and we wait to hear what is | 0:04:57 | 0:05:06 | |
happening with that. With us now is Neil Hamilton and Chris Lesley. I | 0:05:06 | 0:05:14 | |
must correct what I said before, cash or on a Skype it was Cash for | 0:05:14 | 0:05:24 | |
0:05:24 | 0:05:26 | ||
Questions. This boat may well go through. -- for on us. I think it | 0:05:26 | 0:05:30 | |
could have serious consequences with default. The current option is | 0:05:30 | 0:05:34 | |
not that much better in terms of austerity being piled upon Greece | 0:05:34 | 0:05:38 | |
and the tensions it is stoking up. Ultimately we need to make sure | 0:05:38 | 0:05:42 | |
that markets have confidence in the eurozone and eurozone countries | 0:05:42 | 0:05:47 | |
need to dip into their own pockets and put up a firewall of sufficient | 0:05:47 | 0:05:53 | |
size - a bail out fund that will do the job. The Labour Party has been | 0:05:53 | 0:05:57 | |
saying this for nine months. The Chancellor is beginning to change | 0:05:57 | 0:06:00 | |
his mind to say the eurozone countries had to dip into their | 0:06:00 | 0:06:04 | |
pockets first before coming to the rest of the world. Before we come | 0:06:04 | 0:06:09 | |
to that, at the Hampton, do you think now would be better for | 0:06:09 | 0:06:19 | |
0:06:19 | 0:06:19 | ||
Greece to default and and nine months' time - as Macro -- Neil | 0:06:19 | 0:06:24 | |
Hamilton, do you think now would be better able greased to default than | 0:06:24 | 0:06:30 | |
in nine months' time? Definitely. It is an enormous bankruptcy | 0:06:30 | 0:06:36 | |
machine. The Greek people are being sacrificed on the vanity of | 0:06:36 | 0:06:42 | |
politicians. Unemployment is 20%. The Greek economy contracted by 6% | 0:06:42 | 0:06:48 | |
last year. This is worse than anything that has happened in this | 0:06:48 | 0:06:52 | |
country during the Great Depression. People are not really worried about | 0:06:52 | 0:06:59 | |
what happens to the Greeks. It is about protecting eurozone itself. | 0:06:59 | 0:07:04 | |
Thinking this is better for them and having as a disorderly default. | 0:07:04 | 0:07:09 | |
They should care about social consequences. The difficulty is you | 0:07:09 | 0:07:13 | |
could be out of the frying pan and into the fire. There is a debate | 0:07:13 | 0:07:18 | |
about whether they should have joined the euro in the first place. | 0:07:18 | 0:07:27 | |
We are where we are. They cannot grow in their economy inside the | 0:07:27 | 0:07:33 | |
eurozone. I totally agree with Neil Hamilton on mess. How outrageous we | 0:07:33 | 0:07:37 | |
have not had the leadership from those heads of government across | 0:07:37 | 0:07:43 | |
the eurozone, and also from the British government as well! Pretty | 0:07:43 | 0:07:47 | |
much everyone has accepted inside and outside of Greece that with | 0:07:47 | 0:07:53 | |
that level of austerity and that level of pain there can never be | 0:07:53 | 0:07:56 | |
growth. There is knackery danger that if you have a strategy for | 0:07:56 | 0:08:03 | |
solving the problem that you will end up with the problem Goering on | 0:08:03 | 0:08:09 | |
and on. There are steps that can be taken to stimulate growth. We have | 0:08:09 | 0:08:13 | |
a series of right-wing governments across the eurozone who take the | 0:08:13 | 0:08:17 | |
view of George Osborne that there is nothing governments can do to | 0:08:17 | 0:08:22 | |
stimulate growth. You cannot stimulate growth by recycling the | 0:08:22 | 0:08:28 | |
tax payers money. That is completely nonsensical. Greece | 0:08:29 | 0:08:34 | |
cannot get out of its current problems by -- without having a | 0:08:34 | 0:08:44 | |
0:08:44 | 0:08:45 | ||
lower value currency. The biggest export earners are tourism and | 0:08:45 | 0:08:48 | |
shipbuilders. There is one potential problem, if it did | 0:08:48 | 0:08:52 | |
default, there would be the worry of contagion. The firewall has not | 0:08:52 | 0:09:00 | |
been set up perversely enough and we have not agreed a figure. -- | 0:09:00 | 0:09:05 | |
robustly. Without that, Portuguese and Italian debt could be driven. | 0:09:06 | 0:09:10 | |
We are not bailing out the Greeks, we are bailing out the French and | 0:09:10 | 0:09:16 | |
German banks. The Greek people are having to pay the interest on those | 0:09:16 | 0:09:23 | |
bombs for the foreseeable future, this time to the European tax payer. | 0:09:23 | 0:09:30 | |
-- bonds. My view is that a lot of pressure should have been put on, | 0:09:30 | 0:09:36 | |
particularly Germany, but it was not. We needed diplomatic pressure | 0:09:36 | 0:09:43 | |
to have been stronger. Is that enough for the European mechanism? | 0:09:43 | 0:09:50 | |
This is what they are discussing. I think there are some queries about | 0:09:50 | 0:09:56 | |
this. I do not think the Chancellor is out of the words. They could be | 0:09:56 | 0:10:03 | |
going back and back again. They need the bail out for and -- a bail | 0:10:03 | 0:10:10 | |
out fund that is more robust. If they think the IMF will come in and | 0:10:10 | 0:10:14 | |
do the bailing out process, the Americans are right in saying, let | 0:10:14 | 0:10:18 | |
those wealthy nations dip into their pockets first before coming | 0:10:18 | 0:10:23 | |
to other countries, like the UK, to do the bailing out job. That is the | 0:10:23 | 0:10:28 | |
message we have to send. European Central Bank is not the | 0:10:28 | 0:10:33 | |
lender of last resort. The German tax payer was not prepared to be | 0:10:33 | 0:10:36 | |
put on the hook for the consequences of that decision. They | 0:10:36 | 0:10:42 | |
are printing money from nowhere. It is a fast quantitative easing | 0:10:42 | 0:10:46 | |
programme. The money you are talking about is not money that is | 0:10:46 | 0:10:51 | |
being lent to the European Central Bank, they are pressing a computer | 0:10:51 | 0:10:56 | |
key and creating it. There will be huge hyperinflation and that is | 0:10:56 | 0:11:02 | |
what wants to be avoided. There is huge pressure from Britain. Should | 0:11:02 | 0:11:06 | |
we contribute more? I think it is time for the eurozone countries to | 0:11:06 | 0:11:10 | |
dig into their pockets first. The Prime Minister called Bass | 0:11:11 | 0:11:15 | |
breathtakingly irresponsible for taking that view. The Chancellor | 0:11:15 | 0:11:22 | |
has come round to active. Not a penny more from the British tax | 0:11:22 | 0:11:29 | |
payer to pour into this bottomless pit! What you pour in today, it | 0:11:29 | 0:11:33 | |
will not do what it said it would and they will be back for more in a | 0:11:33 | 0:11:41 | |
few months' time. You may not have noticed that it is freezing in most | 0:11:41 | 0:11:44 | |
parts of England. No, not the weather. We are talking about the | 0:11:44 | 0:11:47 | |
council tax. This is the second year that the Government has given | 0:11:47 | 0:11:50 | |
local authorities money so that they won't put up bills. But is the | 0:11:50 | 0:11:54 | |
freeze all that it seems? We sent Adam out during the recent bout of | 0:11:54 | 0:11:57 | |
wintry weather to investigate. At times, this winter has been pretty | 0:11:57 | 0:12:01 | |
chilly in West Sussex. It is not just the landscape that has been | 0:12:01 | 0:12:06 | |
frozen, so has the council tax. is funded by central government who | 0:12:06 | 0:12:12 | |
are offering the Government to grant -- local government a grant. | 0:12:13 | 0:12:17 | |
It will vary across the country. For families in West Sussex in an | 0:12:17 | 0:12:24 | |
average property, they will save about �34 a year, 65p a week. John | 0:12:24 | 0:12:30 | |
makes a living from freezing things. He is an ice sculptor. Like a lot | 0:12:30 | 0:12:37 | |
of locals, he is glad that, at last, there is one Bill that is not | 0:12:37 | 0:12:43 | |
increasing. The cost of heating, electric, stuff like that, is going | 0:12:43 | 0:12:49 | |
up. It will give us a break, albeit for a short period. No one can | 0:12:49 | 0:12:55 | |
complain about that. Not all local authorities are as welcoming of the | 0:12:55 | 0:13:00 | |
idea as West Sussex. I am now in Surrey, where they are not taking | 0:13:00 | 0:13:05 | |
the Government's money and council tax bills are going up. The council | 0:13:05 | 0:13:11 | |
here is fighting the freeze with a planned tax rise of 2.9%. The | 0:13:11 | 0:13:14 | |
county's Conservative leader is doing it because the Government | 0:13:14 | 0:13:20 | |
handout only lasts for one year. you take the council tax grant this | 0:13:20 | 0:13:27 | |
year off the Government, you still will be down 2.5% next it in your | 0:13:27 | 0:13:31 | |
budget. That is the question everyone needs to address. If you | 0:13:31 | 0:13:35 | |
had gone for a council tax freeze the ship, how much would you have | 0:13:35 | 0:13:45 | |
0:13:45 | 0:13:46 | ||
had to have put it up next year? -- this year. Probably about 5%. | 0:13:46 | 0:13:50 | |
local of authorities had decided what they are doing. At least 20 up | 0:13:51 | 0:13:55 | |
going the way of Surrey. A few, mainly Labour-controlled and | 0:13:55 | 0:14:02 | |
Brighton, are opting for increases of 3.5%. So far, none have gone | 0:14:02 | 0:14:08 | |
beyond that. Otherwise there would have to hold a local referendum. A | 0:14:08 | 0:14:13 | |
new law designed by the Government which will have an effect on town | 0:14:13 | 0:14:18 | |
halls as they decide to freeze or not. With me now is the Communities | 0:14:18 | 0:14:27 | |
Secretary, Eric Pickles. He is the proud owner of a Daily Politics mug. | 0:14:27 | 0:14:32 | |
How many councils in England are planning to increase council tax? | 0:14:33 | 0:14:39 | |
tiny number. Do you know how many? We will not know until 12th March. | 0:14:39 | 0:14:46 | |
So far we have over 300 who are going to freeze it. There are eight | 0:14:46 | 0:14:52 | |
he will reduce it. That is pretty high for this time of year. I would | 0:14:52 | 0:14:59 | |
anticipate, in terms of local authorities, it could be near 90%. | 0:14:59 | 0:15:04 | |
All the councils have not officially declared. That is a | 0:15:04 | 0:15:11 | |
significant number. Your report said brighten, Taunton Deane has | 0:15:11 | 0:15:17 | |
not and Scarborough has not. They are in the figures. It is a mix | 0:15:17 | 0:15:23 | |
politically. These are councils of all shades who could resist. About | 0:15:23 | 0:15:28 | |
three or four are Conservative but the majority are Labour. It is | 0:15:28 | 0:15:35 | |
strange. If I was a resident of Surrey, I would say a, why have you | 0:15:35 | 0:15:41 | |
turn down just short of �40 million in government grants? Instead of | 0:15:41 | 0:15:48 | |
that you're going to take �16.5 million away from me. That seems a | 0:15:48 | 0:15:52 | |
logical. The point that was made in the thumb, the council's who want | 0:15:52 | 0:15:58 | |
to increase, they do not know if they are going to provide the same | 0:15:58 | 0:16:04 | |
level of funding, they will have to increase by 6%. That is the | 0:16:04 | 0:16:08 | |
economics of the madhouse. If you are going to give councils the | 0:16:08 | 0:16:13 | |
equivalent of a 2.5% rise and you were to Dublin next year, it would | 0:16:13 | 0:16:19 | |
be around 5%. We're changing the way that local government is | 0:16:19 | 0:16:24 | |
financed. We're changing the process of the business rate next | 0:16:24 | 0:16:29 | |
year. It is theoretically possible that Surrey maybe in a worse | 0:16:29 | 0:16:34 | |
position because they have raised the council tax this year. That is | 0:16:34 | 0:16:39 | |
why most councils have taken the sensible course been taking money | 0:16:39 | 0:16:42 | |
from the Government in recognition that things are a little bit | 0:16:42 | 0:16:49 | |
difficult for families, let's show some slop -- solidarity. What about | 0:16:49 | 0:16:54 | |
localism? Local areas should decide what to do. You are dictating to | 0:16:54 | 0:17:02 | |
local governments telling them what I am not forcing them to freeze | 0:17:02 | 0:17:10 | |
their council tax! You have been pretty heavy about it! I am robust! | 0:17:10 | 0:17:14 | |
Surrey will be putting up their council tax and a number of Labour | 0:17:14 | 0:17:19 | |
authorities. I am taking no sanctions against them. It is | 0:17:19 | 0:17:23 | |
interesting. They have stood up for localism but they haven't taken the | 0:17:23 | 0:17:28 | |
ultimate test, to increase it a bit more and take it to the electorate. | 0:17:28 | 0:17:36 | |
If they have a good case, take it to the electorate. A politician | 0:17:36 | 0:17:40 | |
should never be frightened of the public and. Eric has been admirably | 0:17:40 | 0:17:44 | |
robust about this and has been protecting the interests of local | 0:17:44 | 0:17:50 | |
taxpayers. But he cannot because a proportion of councils will rebel. | 0:17:50 | 0:17:55 | |
And they are idiots for doing so. The idea that businesses of these | 0:17:55 | 0:18:01 | |
sizes cannot make 3% economies in 12 months is ridiculous. Non-jobs | 0:18:01 | 0:18:07 | |
are still being advertised for by its various councils, a senior | 0:18:07 | 0:18:10 | |
travel awareness officer for Enfield Council to tell people to | 0:18:10 | 0:18:15 | |
walk more often and use their bicycle, and Camden is looking for | 0:18:15 | 0:18:19 | |
someone �30,000 a year with a load of management gobbledegook that | 0:18:19 | 0:18:25 | |
means nothing. You can always find examples of that but are you saying | 0:18:25 | 0:18:29 | |
that Chelmsford, Devon and Surrey are basically practising the | 0:18:29 | 0:18:35 | |
economics of the madhouse? Yes! Follow Brentwood's example. | 0:18:35 | 0:18:39 | |
Hammersmith and Fulham. Cut the council tax. And which services | 0:18:39 | 0:18:46 | |
will be harm? No services! This ridiculous idea that merely because | 0:18:47 | 0:18:50 | |
you buy your services better, because you control your staff | 0:18:50 | 0:18:56 | |
better, because you concentrate on protecting frontline services, that | 0:18:56 | 0:19:01 | |
somehow we will get better services... Look at Hammersmith and | 0:19:01 | 0:19:06 | |
Fulham. It has cut its council tax successfully for five years and | 0:19:06 | 0:19:12 | |
services have got better. In my own counsel in Wiltshire, they are | 0:19:12 | 0:19:21 | |
cutting the wheelie bin collections rather than... -- in my council! | 0:19:21 | 0:19:26 | |
Eric Pickles failed to get councils to do what he wanted about that! | 0:19:26 | 0:19:32 | |
Totally wrong! I am not forcing them. They do not have to have the | 0:19:32 | 0:19:34 | |
weekly collection but I am providing serious sums of money | 0:19:34 | 0:19:39 | |
off... Why should they get more of an incentive to do what you would | 0:19:39 | 0:19:45 | |
like? Because I give them an advantage so smaller councils can | 0:19:45 | 0:19:50 | |
go out together and improved procurement. There a lot of things | 0:19:50 | 0:19:55 | |
two separate rubbish. We will give them a grant for that. Rather than | 0:19:55 | 0:19:58 | |
putting a yoghurt pot into the wrong being, they will be | 0:19:58 | 0:20:03 | |
encouraged and not given a fine -- into the wrong rubbish bin. We have | 0:20:03 | 0:20:08 | |
had that discussion many time before. Let's go back to the idea | 0:20:08 | 0:20:12 | |
of reassurance under the new scheme that will come in for local | 0:20:12 | 0:20:15 | |
government. Can you offer reassurance that councils will get | 0:20:15 | 0:20:21 | |
money next year so they can change their mind? Councils will be able | 0:20:21 | 0:20:26 | |
to retain the growth in their business rate so if they bring in | 0:20:26 | 0:20:31 | |
new business... But that is difficult in the current times. | 0:20:31 | 0:20:35 | |
have started this process whereby they get sums of money for every | 0:20:36 | 0:20:42 | |
house that they built in their area. We are moving away from where you | 0:20:42 | 0:20:47 | |
demonstrate how bad your council is to get more money to one in which | 0:20:47 | 0:20:51 | |
the power is in your hands. The idea that if we don't take the | 0:20:51 | 0:20:56 | |
money, we have to put it up, that is the view of an officer, not a | 0:20:56 | 0:21:01 | |
politician. So there will be money next year to compensate? To be | 0:21:01 | 0:21:07 | |
clear, next year we are moving on to a new system of local government | 0:21:07 | 0:21:12 | |
and the power is in their hands, not my hands. You said there will | 0:21:12 | 0:21:17 | |
be no sanction for councils. So no penalty in future for councils who | 0:21:17 | 0:21:24 | |
do not toe the line? Other than if you bump into me in Westminster! | 0:21:24 | 0:21:29 | |
was going to say that only people with the legal powers to send you | 0:21:29 | 0:21:34 | |
to prison if you do not pay for the services that they decide on and | 0:21:34 | 0:21:37 | |
the level they are provided at could possibly behave in this way. | 0:21:37 | 0:21:41 | |
If they are in the competitive world of business, they would have | 0:21:41 | 0:21:47 | |
to cut the Cote according to their cloth. There is not this bottomless | 0:21:47 | 0:21:50 | |
pit of money that the government can shovel towards local | 0:21:50 | 0:21:57 | |
authorities. They have to get into the real world. What about high | 0:21:57 | 0:22:07 | |
0:22:07 | 0:22:07 | ||
council tax bands for expensive homes, every -- Eric? It would need | 0:22:07 | 0:22:12 | |
a full revaluation. It would probably cost somewhere in the | 0:22:12 | 0:22:16 | |
region of �200 million to do that. We have seen this in action in | 0:22:16 | 0:22:24 | |
Wales. A lot of houses with John two or three bands and I am very | 0:22:25 | 0:22:30 | |
doubtful that a whether we would recoup this money -- a lot of | 0:22:30 | 0:22:35 | |
houses would jump. So you are not in favour of it? I am not sure that | 0:22:35 | 0:22:42 | |
I am. I am being understated. It would be a very expensive process. | 0:22:42 | 0:22:47 | |
My council tax is �3,000 already and I don't want it to go up any | 0:22:47 | 0:22:52 | |
more! Why does the owner of a �2 million house in Kensington pay the | 0:22:52 | 0:22:58 | |
same as someone in a one-bedroom flat were �350,000? If you want to | 0:22:58 | 0:23:03 | |
raise serious money, you can raise it with a revaluation and we have a | 0:23:03 | 0:23:08 | |
rule that out. There are legitimate concerns about foreign nationals | 0:23:08 | 0:23:12 | |
purchasing their property through a company rather than themselves and | 0:23:12 | 0:23:17 | |
I hope the Chancellor may well be looking at that. You keep saying | 0:23:17 | 0:23:22 | |
that. We know it is a matter for the Chancellor. Just in case they | 0:23:22 | 0:23:27 | |
put it back to the Treasury! Thank you. | 0:23:27 | 0:23:31 | |
Our guest of the day of course is Neil Hamilton. Once a minister in | 0:23:31 | 0:23:34 | |
John Major's government, who lost his seat in 1997 after weeks of | 0:23:34 | 0:23:38 | |
headlines about cash for questions. But he is refusing to believe that | 0:23:38 | 0:23:41 | |
his political life is over and he is back in public life as an | 0:23:41 | 0:23:44 | |
elected member of UKIP's National Executive Committee. So how do you | 0:23:44 | 0:23:46 | |
make a successful political comeback? David Thompson | 0:23:46 | 0:23:48 | |
investigates. All political careers end in | 0:23:49 | 0:23:54 | |
failure or so the saying goes. Some sail more spectacularly than others. | 0:23:54 | 0:23:58 | |
I shall be registering the biscuits... Neil Hamilton was | 0:23:58 | 0:24:03 | |
forced to resign from John Major's government over claims he had taken | 0:24:03 | 0:24:08 | |
cash for asking questions in Parliament. That led to him losing | 0:24:08 | 0:24:12 | |
his seat at an election and later been declared bankrupt. Since then, | 0:24:12 | 0:24:17 | |
he has had a lively alternative career outside politics, but now he | 0:24:17 | 0:24:21 | |
is back on the political comeback trail as the senior member of the | 0:24:21 | 0:24:26 | |
UK Independence Party. It is fair to say that Neil Hamilton is not | 0:24:26 | 0:24:30 | |
dreaming of Number Ten but he is making a political comeback. | 0:24:30 | 0:24:39 | |
Question is, how do you pull it How you have got to have a brass | 0:24:39 | 0:24:44 | |
neck and treat people as though the circumstances of your resignation | 0:24:44 | 0:24:48 | |
were unimportant and you cannot imagine why anybody should suppose | 0:24:48 | 0:24:51 | |
that you cannot come back because if you start going around penitent, | 0:24:51 | 0:24:56 | |
you will not get anywhere. Matthew's and voice brought to | 0:24:57 | 0:25:02 | |
mind the Prince of comebacks. Peter Mandelson was once, twice, three | 0:25:02 | 0:25:11 | |
times Cabinet minister. comeback kid! Quite enough! And a | 0:25:11 | 0:25:16 | |
more recent departee would like a Cabinet comeback as well. You come | 0:25:16 | 0:25:20 | |
into politics to make a difference. There are different ways of doing | 0:25:20 | 0:25:27 | |
that. Is that a Yes? But given the grief ministers get, | 0:25:27 | 0:25:35 | |
why would you come back? I was one of the biggest profile ministers, | 0:25:35 | 0:25:42 | |
to a backbencher. Was I devastated? No. I was profoundly relieved. For | 0:25:42 | 0:25:47 | |
a while. For a while. And then you start to want to come back. | 0:25:47 | 0:25:52 | |
Fortunately, Anne Widdecombe saw the error of her ways and | 0:25:52 | 0:25:56 | |
reinvented herself as the Queen of everything television and that | 0:25:56 | 0:26:00 | |
seems to be the way many politicians come back in to the | 0:26:00 | 0:26:04 | |
public eye. The media that most politicians go to of the serious | 0:26:04 | 0:26:10 | |
stuff. The? No. I went to Strictly Come Dancing. The joy every time | 0:26:10 | 0:26:16 | |
and is you can say yes or No As You fancy, not because you think it is | 0:26:17 | 0:26:22 | |
a good stepping stone for your career. She is right. This Week | 0:26:22 | 0:26:25 | |
attracts politicians but are there shows that should not be touched | 0:26:25 | 0:26:30 | |
with the proverbial? There on media opportunities which are so cheap | 0:26:30 | 0:26:35 | |
that you have to be paid a great deal to endure them. For instance, | 0:26:35 | 0:26:40 | |
if you go on to "I'm A Celebrity, Get Me Out Of Here!", look at | 0:26:40 | 0:26:45 | |
George Galloway for instance. That is probably curtains to your being | 0:26:45 | 0:26:49 | |
taken entirely seriously so make sure they pay you a lot. Let's face | 0:26:49 | 0:26:53 | |
it, you would have to appear in something pretty bad because if you | 0:26:53 | 0:27:01 | |
can come back from this, then anything is possible. | 0:27:01 | 0:27:07 | |
David Thomson reporting. And we are joined now by the former Labour MP | 0:27:07 | 0:27:09 | |
for Reading, Martin Salter, who decided to quit frontline politics | 0:27:09 | 0:27:12 | |
before the last election. And has so far dedicated his life after | 0:27:12 | 0:27:22 | |
parliament to fish. Being happy! And? Monster fish! Is that your | 0:27:22 | 0:27:32 | |
It is a kingfish. I spent 15 happy months in Australia and New Zealand | 0:27:32 | 0:27:40 | |
I wanted to be somewhere where people were not coming up to me in | 0:27:40 | 0:27:44 | |
the street and giving me problems. I wanted to catch big fish that I | 0:27:44 | 0:27:49 | |
had dreamt about when I was a little kid, and I did. So you | 0:27:49 | 0:27:53 | |
achieve your ambition. Would anything tempt you back into | 0:27:53 | 0:27:58 | |
politics? I have waited to come on this programme, I have listened to | 0:27:58 | 0:28:02 | |
the interviews, watched the Strictly Come Dancing nonsense. I | 0:28:02 | 0:28:07 | |
want to come back even less now than I ever did. We had this | 0:28:07 | 0:28:11 | |
discussion several years ago. I have no intention of going around | 0:28:11 | 0:28:17 | |
the House of Commons in my 60s. I stood down when I was 57. I am not | 0:28:17 | 0:28:22 | |
criticising people but it is not for me. What is it that has tempted | 0:28:22 | 0:28:27 | |
you back about the game? It is not a game. There of things that really | 0:28:27 | 0:28:32 | |
matter in life. I have left the House of Commons to devote more | 0:28:32 | 0:28:37 | |
time to politics! Why would you want to go there again? There are | 0:28:37 | 0:28:41 | |
things I believe in very strongly. We started the programme talking | 0:28:41 | 0:28:46 | |
about things in Greece. The human tragedy that is tied up in that is | 0:28:46 | 0:28:52 | |
visited in so many other areas. I want to do something about it. I | 0:28:52 | 0:28:58 | |
have spent the last 14 years doing a lot of other things! We didn't | 0:28:58 | 0:29:04 | |
have a big enough programme for all of them! It is not mainstream! | 0:29:04 | 0:29:10 | |
is not edifying! Why can't we have fun in our 60s? We can do a variety | 0:29:10 | 0:29:20 | |
0:29:20 | 0:29:25 | ||
of different things. I am enjoying being on the wing in UKIP. I am | 0:29:25 | 0:29:29 | |
simply advancing the cause is that I believe in. I have no personal | 0:29:29 | 0:29:33 | |
ambitions in politics what's the weather. I don't see myself walking | 0:29:33 | 0:29:39 | |
through the door of Number Ten -- whatsoever. Do you think the fact | 0:29:39 | 0:29:42 | |
you have trodden the media stage is because that was the only option | 0:29:42 | 0:29:49 | |
left to you? It was. I was too hot to handle, even for the many people | 0:29:49 | 0:29:53 | |
who didn't believe the allegations that were made about me. Being | 0:29:53 | 0:29:56 | |
controversial means you are effectively unemployable and I have | 0:29:56 | 0:30:03 | |
been self-employed happily for 14 years. I have lost a huge amount of | 0:30:03 | 0:30:08 | |
money and I was bankrupt for three years because of the legal expenses | 0:30:09 | 0:30:15 | |
of trying to clear my name. I have spent those years recovering the | 0:30:15 | 0:30:20 | |
family fortune as it were! I am fortunate enough to have a more | 0:30:20 | 0:30:24 | |
financially successful partner than most! Do you think part of the | 0:30:24 | 0:30:29 | |
problem was that if you, if you fall from grace becomes so | 0:30:29 | 0:30:34 | |
notorious, if you hold on too long, it takes that much longer to come | 0:30:34 | 0:30:44 | |
0:30:44 | 0:30:48 | ||
back? And love people like David Of course. Things were said about | 0:30:48 | 0:30:52 | |
me which caused my political career to be destroyed, which I denied | 0:30:52 | 0:30:57 | |
because they were untrue. That is different from people like Jonathan | 0:30:57 | 0:31:04 | |
Aitken and Jeffrey Archer. Perhaps it was not the most enjoyable | 0:31:04 | 0:31:12 | |
pursuit between 1997 or 2008, being a Tory MP. When and lost my seat, I | 0:31:12 | 0:31:17 | |
did not stop believing in all the things I've previously believed in, | 0:31:17 | 0:31:23 | |
I just took up the reins from where I left off. It is difficult to come | 0:31:23 | 0:31:28 | |
back if there has been a very long and dominating campaign that has | 0:31:28 | 0:31:34 | |
filled headlines or filled an election. With some MPs, it would | 0:31:34 | 0:31:40 | |
be the same post expensive -- expenses. It is a little bit tragic | 0:31:40 | 0:31:45 | |
for a lot of people. There are people who have only to find | 0:31:45 | 0:31:49 | |
themselves by having those two initials after their names. There | 0:31:49 | 0:31:55 | |
is an interesting world. I wanted to see if I could make it in civvy | 0:31:55 | 0:31:59 | |
street. Walking through Reading as not a councillor or not a member of | 0:31:59 | 0:32:05 | |
parliament was very interesting. I now work for a fantastic | 0:32:05 | 0:32:12 | |
organisation called the Angling Trust. We look after Britain's | 0:32:12 | 0:32:15 | |
number one participant sport. I have transferred skills and | 0:32:15 | 0:32:22 | |
experiences I have learned from politics to another field. The age | 0:32:22 | 0:32:27 | |
at which she retired from politics meant you could pursue something | 0:32:27 | 0:32:35 | |
which you enjoyed. -- you retire. Some MPs lost their seats in 1997, | 0:32:35 | 0:32:41 | |
and 2010. They have to get real jobs and have real careers. I went | 0:32:41 | 0:32:46 | |
to a gathering of former MPs which was interesting. Those who had | 0:32:46 | 0:32:51 | |
planned their soft landing, by and large, they have done all right. | 0:32:51 | 0:32:56 | |
They could use their skills, experiences and contacts, and | 0:32:56 | 0:33:04 | |
enjoyed their lives. We all miss an incredibly exciting part of our | 0:33:04 | 0:33:08 | |
lives. Those people who are suddenly turfed out of office, it | 0:33:09 | 0:33:13 | |
is a shock to the system. It is difficult for people to apply for | 0:33:13 | 0:33:18 | |
jobs when you look like a beaten individual. That is the experience | 0:33:18 | 0:33:25 | |
of some MPs. There is an expectation that it used to be a | 0:33:25 | 0:33:34 | |
Korea by life. If you were an MP, you could rest on your laurels. | 0:33:34 | 0:33:40 | |
should it be a career for life? In 1980s, the average number of | 0:33:40 | 0:33:48 | |
letters that an MP got is about 20 a week. Now it is in the hundreds. | 0:33:48 | 0:33:52 | |
The pressures are huge. I do not think it is a job that people can | 0:33:52 | 0:34:00 | |
do, particularly in marginal situations, for 20 years. Martin is | 0:34:00 | 0:34:04 | |
wholly unsuited for a life in politics because he is a genuine | 0:34:04 | 0:34:12 | |
human being. That is debatable. What the House of Commons lacks is | 0:34:12 | 0:34:19 | |
people with a hinterland. That is crucial. The professional | 0:34:19 | 0:34:23 | |
politician who goes from university to researcher or trade union | 0:34:23 | 0:34:32 | |
boffin... Of like David Cameron. I agree with you. It is a major flaw | 0:34:32 | 0:34:37 | |
in the system. Politics should be seen, not as a part-time career, | 0:34:37 | 0:34:43 | |
but you should be able to see you live in compartments. I have had a | 0:34:43 | 0:34:48 | |
full life in many respects. Not only his third the media stuff and | 0:34:48 | 0:34:53 | |
nonsense, I do serious things as well. I am a barrister by | 0:34:53 | 0:34:57 | |
profession and to use my legal expertise. You are a better dancer | 0:34:58 | 0:35:03 | |
than me. I do not know whether we will seek either of you on Strictly | 0:35:03 | 0:35:08 | |
Come Dancing. We could dance together! Before we go down that | 0:35:08 | 0:35:13 | |
road, I was say goodbye to both of you. No doubt you'll have seen some | 0:35:13 | 0:35:17 | |
red carpet glamour on the news this morning as everyone who was anyone | 0:35:17 | 0:35:20 | |
was in Hollywood for the Oscars, well in a moment we too will be | 0:35:20 | 0:35:23 | |
able to add a touch of showbiz sparkle to Westminster with one of | 0:35:23 | 0:35:26 | |
Fleet Street's most glamorous parings. First, let's take a look | 0:35:26 | 0:35:29 | |
at what's coming up this week. Today is a busy day with the Health | 0:35:29 | 0:35:32 | |
Bill being debated in the Lords. Liberal Democrat peers will be | 0:35:32 | 0:35:35 | |
trying to push through several amendments, most notably on the | 0:35:35 | 0:35:38 | |
role of competition within the NHS. Speaking of the Lords, Nick Clegg | 0:35:38 | 0:35:41 | |
is appearing in front of a joint committee to discuss Lords reform. | 0:35:41 | 0:35:44 | |
The Deputy Prime Minister is keen to push ahead with plans to | 0:35:44 | 0:35:46 | |
introduce a mainly elected Upper House, despite opposition amongst a | 0:35:46 | 0:35:50 | |
number of peers. And, on Wednesday, the Employment Minister, Chris | 0:35:50 | 0:35:52 | |
Grayling, is due to meet companies involved in the Government's | 0:35:52 | 0:35:56 | |
controversial workfare scheme. Mr Grayling will be hoping to reassure | 0:35:57 | 0:36:00 | |
businesses that, despite a raft of bad headlines last week, the work | 0:36:00 | 0:36:04 | |
experience project is still worthwhile. And finally, after a | 0:36:04 | 0:36:08 | |
two week break, the Leveson Inquiry is back. The hearings will look at | 0:36:08 | 0:36:14 | |
the relationship between the press and the police. So joining me from | 0:36:14 | 0:36:17 | |
the red carpet now is Tom Newton Dunn from The Sun and Suzanne Moore, | 0:36:17 | 0:36:27 | |
who writes for the Guardian and the Mail on Sunday. Tom, how much of a | 0:36:27 | 0:36:30 | |
strain on coalition relations at the top is the ongoing saga of the | 0:36:30 | 0:36:38 | |
NHS Bill and now House of Lords reform? This morning we have | 0:36:38 | 0:36:42 | |
already had significant movement from the Government on NHS reform. | 0:36:42 | 0:36:47 | |
We will hear from Nick Clegg later on. In lobby this morning, which we | 0:36:47 | 0:36:52 | |
have every morning, it was asked directly what the position of the | 0:36:52 | 0:36:56 | |
Government may be on the amendments to the House Bill in the House of | 0:36:56 | 0:37:01 | |
Lords. They said we'd do not think there should be any significant | 0:37:01 | 0:37:07 | |
changes. If all they do is clarify legislation, we will not feel any | 0:37:07 | 0:37:12 | |
need to overturn that. That is totally different from where the | 0:37:12 | 0:37:18 | |
Government was last week. They said they would fight all the way. | 0:37:18 | 0:37:23 | |
sounds as if they are suffering the line. There has been some | 0:37:23 | 0:37:28 | |
discussion about whether this Bill could lead to privatisation. The | 0:37:28 | 0:37:33 | |
Government has said the service will remain free at the point of | 0:37:33 | 0:37:38 | |
use. Is that your fear? It has been circulated quite widely a list of | 0:37:38 | 0:37:42 | |
both MPs and Lords who have interests in private health | 0:37:42 | 0:37:47 | |
companies. It is a real career. When you have professional bodies | 0:37:47 | 0:37:52 | |
very against much of this legislation, yes, people are very | 0:37:52 | 0:37:56 | |
upset about it. The NHS is something the Tories said they were | 0:37:56 | 0:37:59 | |
not going to privatise and they were not going to change all the | 0:37:59 | 0:38:05 | |
top-down management. This is what they are doing. In terms of | 0:38:05 | 0:38:10 | |
privatisation, what you understand by that? Supporters of the Bill | 0:38:10 | 0:38:14 | |
would argue that competition exists to some extent already within the | 0:38:14 | 0:38:19 | |
NHS. It is still going to be free. What is the privatisation that | 0:38:20 | 0:38:24 | |
people are talking about? It is a simple issuing of contracts which | 0:38:24 | 0:38:28 | |
have already been drawn up with private health care companies. The | 0:38:28 | 0:38:33 | |
links are already well known, and MPs. If you are going to make any | 0:38:33 | 0:38:38 | |
of this work, you need to have all the professionals on side. At the | 0:38:38 | 0:38:42 | |
moment they do not. If GPs are saying they do not want to manage | 0:38:42 | 0:38:46 | |
the funds and consultants are saying, we do not want to do this, | 0:38:46 | 0:38:50 | |
it is hard to bring in another level of management to make them do | 0:38:50 | 0:38:54 | |
it. That is part of what they're doing and that is part of what they | 0:38:54 | 0:38:58 | |
said they would not do. Chris Grayling is meeting companies who | 0:38:58 | 0:39:04 | |
are taking part in the scheme. A couple of companies have decided to | 0:39:04 | 0:39:08 | |
pull out or are reconsidering their position. How much trouble is this | 0:39:08 | 0:39:15 | |
in? For me, it is quite extraordinary. It should not be a | 0:39:15 | 0:39:21 | |
story at all. Two things happened last week, the Socialist Worker | 0:39:21 | 0:39:28 | |
Party led protest. Let's be clear who is behind all this. The | 0:39:28 | 0:39:36 | |
problems of a man has done as well. As Westminster and the media bubble | 0:39:36 | 0:39:42 | |
has a tendency to do, it turns it into an avalanche. Stewart rose | 0:39:42 | 0:39:47 | |
yesterday said, these sort of companies who are buckling in the | 0:39:47 | 0:39:52 | |
face of an absolute minority protest, need to show some backbone. | 0:39:52 | 0:39:57 | |
Anyone who might support what is effectively and has proved to be a | 0:39:57 | 0:40:02 | |
very effective brake getting young people back into work needs to back | 0:40:02 | 0:40:09 | |
this. -- effective way of getting young people. David Cameron needs | 0:40:09 | 0:40:17 | |
to stand up and defend his own policy. The group's Against this | 0:40:17 | 0:40:23 | |
have been accused of being supporters of Trotsky and reds | 0:40:23 | 0:40:29 | |
under the beds. That is ridiculous. A lot of people do not want to see | 0:40:29 | 0:40:34 | |
a compulsory element of kids working for nothing. The companies | 0:40:34 | 0:40:39 | |
have backed down. They have seen the incredibly bad PR. Most people | 0:40:40 | 0:40:46 | |
would support the idea of the unemployed doing something that was | 0:40:46 | 0:40:50 | |
based on community led projects. They do not support the idea that | 0:40:50 | 0:40:57 | |
some huge firms, like Tesco, or pound land or whatever, can make a | 0:40:57 | 0:41:02 | |
profit of the back of free Labour. The idea that stacking shelves is | 0:41:03 | 0:41:07 | |
valid work experience, I would like to see some politician stack | 0:41:07 | 0:41:12 | |
shelves and say that is going to lead to a fantastic career. It is | 0:41:12 | 0:41:19 | |
typical of a government who has never really worked. They need work | 0:41:20 | 0:41:23 | |
experience. That is interesting! Now, forgive me if you think I've | 0:41:23 | 0:41:26 | |
said this before, but the big political news story of the day is | 0:41:26 | 0:41:29 | |
likely to be the fate of the Government's proposed reforms to | 0:41:29 | 0:41:32 | |
the NHS in the House of Lords. The English Constitution is a wonderful | 0:41:32 | 0:41:35 | |
thing which, from time to time, involves legislation bouncing back | 0:41:35 | 0:41:39 | |
and forth between the two Houses of Parliament. The technical term is | 0:41:39 | 0:41:44 | |
ping-pong. In our series of the A to Z of Parliament, Quentin Letts | 0:41:44 | 0:41:54 | |
0:41:54 | 0:42:10 | ||
B is full parliamentary bills. Where better to talk about | 0:42:10 | 0:42:13 | |
parliamentary legislation than in a fencing school. Parliamentary | 0:42:13 | 0:42:19 | |
legislation is about fancy footwork, as you can see from the | 0:42:19 | 0:42:23 | |
professionals. A Bill is a proposal for legislation. It will become law | 0:42:23 | 0:42:29 | |
if it passes through Parliament. It has to be introduced to I their | 0:42:29 | 0:42:34 | |
House by a government minister. Before it becomes law it has to | 0:42:34 | 0:42:39 | |
pass through various stages. At each stage, the Government must | 0:42:39 | 0:42:48 | |
beat En garde. There are five stages a bill must pass. First | 0:42:48 | 0:42:58 | |
0:42:58 | 0:43:01 | ||
reading, second reading, Committee, report and third reading. | 0:43:01 | 0:43:06 | |
Throughout this process, the Bill may be changed by new clauses or | 0:43:06 | 0:43:11 | |
anemones put down by the opposition. All the time the Braille - as that | 0:43:11 | 0:43:16 | |
of the Bill is being jacked and stamped by opposition MPs. The | 0:43:16 | 0:43:22 | |
Government may accept some changes and not others. A bill must gain | 0:43:23 | 0:43:30 | |
the approval of both Houses of Parliament, the Commons and the | 0:43:30 | 0:43:37 | |
Lords. That can lead to to-ing and fro-ing, called parliamentary ping- | 0:43:37 | 0:43:44 | |
pong. If the two Houses cannot agree, the Commons can use the | 0:43:44 | 0:43:51 | |
Parliament Act. It does not happen very often. It finally becomes law | 0:43:51 | 0:43:58 | |
when it receives Royal Assent. It means Her Majesty thinks it is all | 0:43:58 | 0:44:03 | |
right. Back to the sharp end of things. Where were we? Is this | 0:44:03 | 0:44:13 | |
0:44:13 | 0:44:15 | ||
I didn't fancy Quentin Letts's chances! | 0:44:15 | 0:44:17 | |
Quentin Letts at the Landsdowne Club in Mayfair with Olympic | 0:44:17 | 0:44:20 | |
hopeful Corinna Lawrence and her coach, Vladimir Meshkoff. In a | 0:44:20 | 0:44:22 | |
moment I'll be talking to three members of their Lordships House. | 0:44:22 | 0:44:25 | |
But first Norman Smith is in Central Lobby now. Norman, we heard | 0:44:25 | 0:44:29 | |
about this meeting about the Royal College of Surgeons? We seem to be | 0:44:29 | 0:44:34 | |
seen growing number of health professionals getting wobbly about | 0:44:34 | 0:44:40 | |
the proposal because the Royal College of Surgeons, the Royal | 0:44:40 | 0:44:43 | |
College of obstetricians and Royal College of Physicians are to hold a | 0:44:43 | 0:44:48 | |
meeting. They do not hold these extraordinary general meetings to | 0:44:48 | 0:44:52 | |
swap the time of day, presumably they have concerns about what the | 0:44:53 | 0:44:56 | |
government is doing to the health service. The absolute linchpin to | 0:44:56 | 0:45:00 | |
winning the arguments over health reform is getting health | 0:45:00 | 0:45:03 | |
professionals on board and what is significant about these three | 0:45:03 | 0:45:08 | |
latest colleges is that they were all invited to the Downing Street | 0:45:08 | 0:45:12 | |
summit last week, which was meant to be for those who will | 0:45:12 | 0:45:16 | |
constructively engaged and willing to co-operate. Now it seems even | 0:45:16 | 0:45:20 | |
they are getting cold feet about these reforms. Thank you. | 0:45:20 | 0:45:23 | |
And joining me now, Labour's Lord Winston, Liberal Democrat, Baroness | 0:45:23 | 0:45:25 | |
Jolly and the Conservative, Lord Forsyth. Or Robert, Judith and | 0:45:25 | 0:45:34 | |
Michael for the next 20 minutes or so. Michael, less support or | 0:45:34 | 0:45:39 | |
certainly what was already fragile support from health professionals | 0:45:39 | 0:45:46 | |
is even more under threat. Can the bill continue? Yes. One of the | 0:45:46 | 0:45:51 | |
things about the bill is that it went through the House of Commons | 0:45:51 | 0:45:56 | |
pretty well and scrutinised and what has been going on in the Lords | 0:45:56 | 0:46:01 | |
isn't detailed discussion -- non- scrutinised. Many amendments. Of | 0:46:01 | 0:46:06 | |
course issues arise. But the fundamental issues of the bill, to | 0:46:06 | 0:46:11 | |
give patients more choice and to give more power to the | 0:46:11 | 0:46:15 | |
professionals as opposed to the bureaucrats, are things which | 0:46:15 | 0:46:20 | |
everyone supports. But surely the backing of health professionals is | 0:46:20 | 0:46:25 | |
critical to the success? No, the backing of patients is critical and | 0:46:25 | 0:46:31 | |
that is what the bill aims to achieve. So as far as Michael | 0:46:31 | 0:46:37 | |
Forsyth is concerned, the patients count more, you on making | 0:46:37 | 0:46:45 | |
unnecessary and amendments -- you are making unnecessary amendments. | 0:46:45 | 0:46:51 | |
We have amendments probably down to no more than a dozen clauses, there | 0:46:51 | 0:46:57 | |
are over 360 clauses. You have already caused it. We played some | 0:46:57 | 0:47:03 | |
part in it but it took our Conservative partners to work with | 0:47:04 | 0:47:08 | |
us and work together and also at that stage work with a lot of the | 0:47:08 | 0:47:12 | |
Royal Colleges on improving this bill. Some of the amendments are | 0:47:12 | 0:47:16 | |
amendments that the government would be very happy to accept. | 0:47:16 | 0:47:23 | |
Which ones? Detailed points... but on competition? You probably | 0:47:24 | 0:47:28 | |
have not followed this in the House of Lords. Judith and Freddie have | 0:47:28 | 0:47:32 | |
done sterling work and I have listened to this. It is a very | 0:47:32 | 0:47:37 | |
complicated bill but what we are trying to achieve is very simple. | 0:47:38 | 0:47:43 | |
More power to the patience. Lord Winston, it is still able to | 0:47:43 | 0:47:47 | |
achieve what it set out to achieve, which is more patient choice, which | 0:47:47 | 0:47:53 | |
already existed to some extent anyway, and the support of health | 0:47:53 | 0:47:56 | |
professionals is a red herring. agree with one thing, I think it | 0:47:56 | 0:48:02 | |
will go well. I think the record will be astonishing because this is | 0:48:02 | 0:48:06 | |
a thoroughly bad bill in almost every respect and it is something | 0:48:06 | 0:48:09 | |
which the Prime Minister at the hustings and Nick Clegg both argued | 0:48:09 | 0:48:13 | |
that it was something they would not do to the health service, and | 0:48:13 | 0:48:17 | |
they have done it. They have effectively gone against an | 0:48:17 | 0:48:20 | |
election pledge. I think it is shocking the Liberal Democrats on | 0:48:20 | 0:48:25 | |
their own admission have only put down 10 amendments on the bill they | 0:48:25 | 0:48:29 | |
are deeply worried about. Let's come down to basics. The real | 0:48:29 | 0:48:33 | |
problem is that what the patient wants is a doctor who has time to | 0:48:33 | 0:48:39 | |
listen to them and to examine them and to address their concerns. That | 0:48:39 | 0:48:42 | |
is very healing. What is increasingly happening is the | 0:48:42 | 0:48:48 | |
separation of the patient from that healing process. This bill, by | 0:48:48 | 0:48:52 | |
fragmenting the health service, will make it much worse. | 0:48:52 | 0:48:56 | |
government has said it is about giving power to doctors to make the | 0:48:56 | 0:49:01 | |
best choices for the patient? will make them more able to choose | 0:49:01 | 0:49:05 | |
bureaucratically, yes, but if you do for the health service to more | 0:49:05 | 0:49:09 | |
and more GPs and commissioning groups, you end up with less time | 0:49:09 | 0:49:16 | |
to do what is important -- if you default. That is, practise medicine. | 0:49:16 | 0:49:20 | |
This is why the colleges are worried. They are worried because | 0:49:20 | 0:49:24 | |
they are increasingly concerned, all my colleagues will tell you, | 0:49:24 | 0:49:27 | |
there will be more and more separation from the patient who | 0:49:27 | 0:49:31 | |
needs the care. If you cannot persuade doctors and health | 0:49:31 | 0:49:36 | |
professionals, you will not be able to persuade the Patients. His many | 0:49:36 | 0:49:41 | |
GPs are worried about this and talking about fears of | 0:49:41 | 0:49:46 | |
privatisation, you will not persuade the public -- if many GPs. | 0:49:46 | 0:49:50 | |
The best way to persuade them is by demonstrating success and it is | 0:49:50 | 0:49:55 | |
entirely natural that people are fearful of change but this bill | 0:49:55 | 0:50:00 | |
reduces bureaucracy by 4.5 million, it gives more power two GPs and | 0:50:00 | 0:50:08 | |
nurses and it enables the patients to have more say. The key thing is | 0:50:08 | 0:50:11 | |
the relationship with the doctor but if we have doctors spending | 0:50:11 | 0:50:16 | |
more time with patients, we need to have more resources available and | 0:50:16 | 0:50:20 | |
less spent on bureaucracy. Lib Dem Lords are not trying to scupper | 0:50:20 | 0:50:25 | |
this? Or absolutely not. purpose of the Lords is to | 0:50:25 | 0:50:29 | |
scrutinise legislation. There was several areas that we felt were | 0:50:29 | 0:50:36 | |
lacking. I think 10 is probably too few. We do not have the resources | 0:50:36 | 0:50:41 | |
of the Labour Party. We have looked at specific areas where we have | 0:50:41 | 0:50:45 | |
concern and we worked really hard with the government, engaging them | 0:50:45 | 0:50:50 | |
at every stage. Competition is where there seems to be a lot of | 0:50:50 | 0:50:55 | |
uncertainty. Lib Dems are worried about the competition element? | 0:50:55 | 0:51:01 | |
There are areas of this, yes. There is evidence that competition can | 0:51:01 | 0:51:06 | |
improve performance. It does exist anywhere in the NHS so what are you | 0:51:06 | 0:51:10 | |
worried about? What we don't want to see is the NHS being overtaken | 0:51:10 | 0:51:17 | |
by the private sector. And you think this bill will do that? | 0:51:17 | 0:51:27 | |
0:51:27 | 0:51:27 | ||
inevitable. Can I just come back quickly on that? Is bill builds on | 0:51:27 | 0:51:31 | |
the 2006 bill, which laid the groundwork for competition and | 0:51:31 | 0:51:35 | |
private sector involvement, so what the Liberal Democrats are trying to | 0:51:35 | 0:51:41 | |
do is use his bill to plug the gap that was left in the 2006 | 0:51:41 | 0:51:46 | |
legislation -- this bill. Labour lay the groundwork so what are you | 0:51:46 | 0:51:51 | |
worried about? Labour left the National Health Service in a good | 0:51:51 | 0:51:54 | |
state because if you look at the independent American think-tanks, | 0:51:54 | 0:51:58 | |
it shows that the British health service is over twice as cheaper | 0:51:58 | 0:52:03 | |
than the American system, a third cheaper than the German system, and | 0:52:03 | 0:52:06 | |
a quarter of cheaper than the French. The outcomes are better | 0:52:07 | 0:52:11 | |
than many countries including France, Italy, Germany and Spain | 0:52:11 | 0:52:15 | |
and our care of old people has been good and therefore one has to ask, | 0:52:15 | 0:52:20 | |
why do you meet at this stage, when the country is in such turmoil, and | 0:52:20 | 0:52:24 | |
through expensive reshuffle of the health service which is as Major | 0:52:24 | 0:52:28 | |
and as demoralising as this -- why do you need? Do you think it will | 0:52:29 | 0:52:33 | |
lead to privatisation was mad yes. Unfortunately I think that is | 0:52:33 | 0:52:40 | |
already happening. This will make it easier and much worse. Once you | 0:52:40 | 0:52:45 | |
have that, you do not have joined up care. I had a friend the other | 0:52:45 | 0:52:53 | |
day he spent six hours in casualty to a broken nose. She said, my real | 0:52:53 | 0:52:59 | |
problem is my sinuses. He said, that is a different department. | 0:52:59 | 0:53:05 | |
With privatisation, that will get worse and worse. Thank you. I am | 0:53:05 | 0:53:09 | |
afraid I have to leave it there. A little later today, the Deputy | 0:53:09 | 0:53:11 | |
Prime Minister Nick Clegg will appear before a joint committee of | 0:53:11 | 0:53:14 | |
both Houses of Parliament talking about Lords reform. There is much | 0:53:14 | 0:53:18 | |
talk that there could be a bill to change the composition of the Upper | 0:53:18 | 0:53:21 | |
House in the next Queen's Speech. If it happens, it will undoubtedly | 0:53:21 | 0:53:24 | |
soak up days of parliamentary time and be a long and bloody battle. | 0:53:24 | 0:53:28 | |
And we saw a little glimpse of just how long and bloody on yesterday's | 0:53:28 | 0:53:31 | |
Sunday Politics. This was the Lib Dem peer Lord Oakeshott taking on | 0:53:31 | 0:53:33 | |
the Conservative MP, Philip Davis. Our coalition agreements as we were | 0:53:33 | 0:53:36 | |
established a committee to bring proposals for a major elected | 0:53:36 | 0:53:40 | |
second chamber on the basis of proportional representation and as | 0:53:40 | 0:53:44 | |
you are not very good on the coalition agreement, let me give | 0:53:44 | 0:53:48 | |
you this and you can read it and remember it, and if you go back on | 0:53:48 | 0:53:52 | |
the deal for that I can assure you, you will not find Lib Dems in | 0:53:52 | 0:53:58 | |
parliament at all keen to vote for redistribution. Redistribution of | 0:53:58 | 0:54:06 | |
the boundaries. Frankly... You have made you point. I voted against | 0:54:06 | 0:54:11 | |
that bill as well so it wouldn't bother me! I was not elected on a | 0:54:11 | 0:54:15 | |
coalition agreement, I was elected by the people before any coalition | 0:54:15 | 0:54:21 | |
agreement. I did not sign up to that. Do you back up Lord | 0:54:21 | 0:54:25 | |
Oakeshott's threat? Islamic is not backing of that sort of reform, you | 0:54:25 | 0:54:30 | |
can forget it over the boundary review -- if there is not that | 0:54:30 | 0:54:38 | |
backing? I back his call to reform the House of Lords, yes. Why? | 0:54:38 | 0:54:48 | |
0:54:48 | 0:54:49 | ||
than a coalition agreement. In each of the three Party's manifesto is, | 0:54:49 | 0:54:54 | |
there was this pledge. But who cares whether there is a wholly | 0:54:54 | 0:55:03 | |
elected House of Lords? A lot of politicians care. The one might | 0:55:03 | 0:55:09 | |
argue... But this health bill has shown up the importance of the | 0:55:09 | 0:55:16 | |
House of Lords. As an expert chamber. A political chamber could | 0:55:16 | 0:55:20 | |
not do to the Health Bill what is actually happening to the Health | 0:55:20 | 0:55:25 | |
Bill. I have only been in the chamber 14 months and there are | 0:55:25 | 0:55:30 | |
some experts but also, there are a lot of people who when you enter | 0:55:30 | 0:55:35 | |
the House of Lords, you come in as an expert but only if you keep on | 0:55:35 | 0:55:39 | |
practising, your expertise goes, so you have wisdom but not necessarily | 0:55:39 | 0:55:44 | |
expertise. There on some experts in the House of Lords, and on | 0:55:44 | 0:55:49 | |
difficult subjects, I go and listen to a debate occasionally. The key | 0:55:49 | 0:55:53 | |
point is that most people in the House of Lords do not want anything. | 0:55:53 | 0:55:57 | |
They are not controlled by the whips. They are free to say what | 0:55:57 | 0:56:02 | |
they want. At the end of the day, the government will decide what | 0:56:02 | 0:56:07 | |
happens. The House of Commons is pre-eminent. The problem with an | 0:56:07 | 0:56:10 | |
elected House of Lords is not that it will change the House of Lords, | 0:56:10 | 0:56:16 | |
which it will to its detriment, but it will destroy the House of | 0:56:16 | 0:56:20 | |
Commons as the pre-eminent house and if I am elected, I am not going | 0:56:20 | 0:56:25 | |
to give way on issues and if I am elected for 15 years on | 0:56:25 | 0:56:28 | |
proportional representation, I will argue I have a stronger mandate | 0:56:28 | 0:56:33 | |
than people in the House of Commons. If you are elected, you have a | 0:56:33 | 0:56:37 | |
political career! You are a politician so people know where you | 0:56:37 | 0:56:44 | |
come from but because it is really long term, it is only... 15 years? | 0:56:44 | 0:56:49 | |
It is really long. It is only one term. You cannot keep coming back. | 0:56:49 | 0:56:53 | |
But you do not need to worry, as they do in the House of Commons, of | 0:56:54 | 0:57:00 | |
keeping on the site of the whips. But I will spend my time trying to | 0:57:00 | 0:57:05 | |
get people on the side of their... I tell you something. I have been | 0:57:05 | 0:57:10 | |
in the House of Lords quite a long time like Michael. I don't suppose | 0:57:10 | 0:57:14 | |
that Nick Clegg has ever once sat through a debate in the House of | 0:57:14 | 0:57:19 | |
Lords to see how it works. One of the reasons Nick Clegg will sink | 0:57:19 | 0:57:24 | |
without trace is because of that lack of experience and his | 0:57:24 | 0:57:27 | |
willingness to opine about various things that he does not have | 0:57:27 | 0:57:31 | |
experience on and I think his attack on the House of Lords is | 0:57:31 | 0:57:36 | |
actually a savage attack on our constitution at a time when reform | 0:57:36 | 0:57:40 | |
is needed in the House of Commons. We should get away from PMQs, we | 0:57:40 | 0:57:46 | |
should get away from pools in the bar... Let's not bring that up. | 0:57:46 | 0:57:52 | |
arguments in the bath. It is highly relevant. Why is it so important to | 0:57:52 | 0:57:57 | |
Nick Clegg? Will it cause a rift in the coalition? I don't think it | 0:57:57 | 0:58:03 | |
will cause a rift. There are bumpy times in the coalition and both of | 0:58:03 | 0:58:09 | |
us find issues uncomfortable but we went into this arrangement in 2010 | 0:58:09 | 0:58:14 | |
and deals were made, conversations were had as part of the agreement. | 0:58:14 | 0:58:18 | |
So the Conservatives should keep to it? I would love them to keep to it. | 0:58:18 | 0:58:23 | |
The idea that we would reform our constitution so fundamentally in | 0:58:23 | 0:58:28 | |
return for votes on an issue about the redistribution of seats, that | 0:58:28 | 0:58:33 | |
is appalling. That is a bill that went to Parliament, has been agreed, | 0:58:33 | 0:58:37 | |
and the notion that there is a squalid backroom deal to destroy | 0:58:37 | 0:58:40 | |
the Upper House and change the nature of the House of Commons, I | 0:58:40 | 0:58:44 | |
don't think any respectable member of any political party would sign | 0:58:44 | 0:58:49 | |
up to that and I was amazed to hear Matthew suggesting it. Squalid | 0:58:49 | 0:58:55 | |
deal? I am not aware of any deal within the Liberal Democrats to try | 0:58:55 | 0:58:59 | |
to scotch anything, as Matthews suggests. We could go on but I have | 0:58:59 | 0:59:04 |