Browse content similar to 12/03/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Good afternoon and welcome to the Daily Politics. The Labour's two | :00:43. | :00:46. | |
Eds are setting out their plans for the economy ahead of next week's | :00:46. | :00:52. | |
Budget. They are calling for fair taxes. We will ask the shadow chief | :00:52. | :00:54. | |
secretary to the Treasury of what it means. | :00:54. | :00:59. | |
Nick Clegg emerges from the spring conference battered and bruised | :00:59. | :01:03. | |
with the grassroots defying his pleas to support the NHS reforms. | :01:03. | :01:06. | |
Senior party figures are questioning his plans for a tycoon | :01:06. | :01:11. | |
tax. We will be assessing the fall- out for the Deputy Prime Minister. | :01:11. | :01:14. | |
David Cameron launches a new scheme to help homeowners with the promise | :01:14. | :01:18. | |
of guarantees for first-time buyers. We have the details. | :01:18. | :01:21. | |
Do you know you're standing committee from you select | :01:21. | :01:27. | |
committee? What does the Parliamentary Statutory Instruments | :01:28. | :01:31. | |
Committee actually do? Quentin Letts has his A-Z Guide to | :01:31. | :01:36. | |
Parliament. It is a jungle out there and sometimes what Parliament | :01:36. | :01:46. | |
:01:46. | :01:48. | ||
All that in the next hour and with us for the whole programme today, | :01:48. | :01:52. | |
the historian Douglas Murray. Welcome back to the Daily Politics. | :01:52. | :01:55. | |
If you have any thoughts or comment on anything we are discussing, then | :01:55. | :02:01. | |
please go to a Twitter. Let's start with the announcement this morning | :02:01. | :02:09. | |
that the Government is announcing a new scheme to help new buyers get a | :02:09. | :02:16. | |
mortgage on properties that are new builds. Eric Pickles has been | :02:16. | :02:19. | |
promoting the NewBuy Guarantee scheme, meeting her couples hoping | :02:19. | :02:22. | |
to become homeowners under the scheme. Grant Shapps explained how | :02:22. | :02:27. | |
it will work. The person buying a home will need to put down a | :02:27. | :02:31. | |
deposit of 5% and then the industry itself, the developer, the | :02:31. | :02:35. | |
housebuilder, will put another 3.5% into a special account, which they | :02:35. | :02:42. | |
would lose if there is another repossession. That is with the | :02:42. | :02:46. | |
taxpayer guaranteeing the other 5.5%. We think we are standing | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
behind the market, using the weight of the Government, and in the end | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
it will not cost the taxpayer much money if any and it enabled the | :02:54. | :03:03. | |
generation to get onto the housing -- enables a generation to get onto | :03:03. | :03:07. | |
the housing ladder. Is this a new announcement? This scheme was | :03:07. | :03:12. | |
announced last November but today it has gone live. It is a reality | :03:12. | :03:16. | |
and you can actually apply for one of these mortgages. We have several | :03:16. | :03:20. | |
lenders and housebuilders that have signed up to the scheme. As you | :03:20. | :03:25. | |
heard, the idea is that the taxpayer stands behind these | :03:25. | :03:28. | |
mortgages, and the idea is that it will provide people that want to | :03:28. | :03:33. | |
get a foot onto the housing ladder to get and 95% mortgage, something | :03:33. | :03:37. | |
that is very difficult to find in the market at the moment. There | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
will be a fear because it was the housing bubble that burst that in | :03:41. | :03:46. | |
many people's minds contributed to the crash. Should the Government be | :03:46. | :03:51. | |
a encouraging people to take out 95% mortgages? The Government is | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
saying that the taxpayer's stake in this is third in line. The money | :03:55. | :03:59. | |
that the Government is putting up will only be at risk wants the | :03:59. | :04:06. | |
stake that the person taking out the mortgage it at risk and then | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
the building stands in front of the taxpayer again. Then there is this | :04:10. | :04:15. | |
worry about people being encouraged to take on and 95% mortgage. The | :04:15. | :04:23. | |
Government is pointing out that their rustic do -- there are | :04:23. | :04:25. | |
stricter rules in place to make sure that people can afford these | :04:25. | :04:30. | |
mortgages. The mortgages on offer are fixed rate, but only for a few | :04:30. | :04:34. | |
years. And yes, there is some risk because this era has very low | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
interest rates and everybody expects them to go up sooner or | :04:38. | :04:43. | |
later. There is always the risk in this labour market that is very | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
difficult of people losing their jobs. There is a riskier but the | :04:47. | :04:51. | |
Government is insisting it is not a question of going back to sub-prime | :04:52. | :04:56. | |
mortgages. It is about helping people get back into the housing | :04:56. | :05:00. | |
market. The risk is that if the housing market remains flat, then | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
the investment might not look like such a good idea in a few years' | :05:03. | :05:08. | |
time anyway. Thank you. On principle, bearing in mind what has | :05:08. | :05:13. | |
happened and how we are so obsessed with owning homes, is that the | :05:13. | :05:17. | |
right line to go down? Easy for us to say because many of us own our | :05:17. | :05:21. | |
own homes. Should we be pushing the idea that as soon as you can afford | :05:21. | :05:27. | |
to you should own your own home? is everybody's dream but for my | :05:27. | :05:31. | |
generation it has pretty much become a fantasy. It is extremely | :05:31. | :05:34. | |
difficult to get onto the housing ladder. Obviously this new | :05:34. | :05:39. | |
initiative is very good for the building industry. Is it better for | :05:39. | :05:42. | |
the building industry than it might be for people trying to get on to | :05:42. | :05:48. | |
the ladder? It might be. Lots of houses are unoccupied and I think | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
we should encourage people to buy them, do them up, move into areas | :05:52. | :05:57. | |
with empty houses and to do that before building new ones. | :05:57. | :06:00. | |
Particularly when the situation in the country is that there are huge | :06:00. | :06:04. | |
parts of the country that could do with an influx of people coming in | :06:04. | :06:08. | |
to do a property. What about the issue of the taxpayer subsidising | :06:08. | :06:14. | |
these mortgages, even if it is in a remote weight than one might | :06:14. | :06:22. | |
Essien? -- in a more remote way than one might assume? It is one | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
thing if we flat line but what if there is a housing collapse? There | :06:26. | :06:29. | |
are many lessons that we should have learned about the Government | :06:29. | :06:33. | |
are not getting involved in this area. Interest rates could be key. | :06:33. | :06:43. | |
At the moment it is affordable for many people to afford the mortgage | :06:43. | :06:47. | |
payments if their levels stay so low. But who can afford to pay them | :06:47. | :06:52. | |
back in the future? People will be trapped. If you have a 95% mortgage | :06:52. | :06:57. | |
you only have the choice of keeping interest rates at the rate they are | :06:57. | :07:00. | |
at or seeing massive amount of home repossession which everybody wants | :07:00. | :07:05. | |
to avoid. Let's move on. With one week to go before George Osborne | :07:05. | :07:09. | |
delivers his Budget, the arguments over tax are continuing. The | :07:09. | :07:13. | |
Liberal Democrats spent the weekend squabbling over whether mansion tax | :07:13. | :07:21. | |
or tycoon tax would be preferable in exchange for the scrapping six | :07:21. | :07:30. | |
of the 50p rate of tax. The two Eds are speaking in London about their | :07:30. | :07:34. | |
ideas for fair taxes. Next week's Budget will take place against the | :07:34. | :07:39. | |
backdrop of the highest unemployment in our country for 17 | :07:39. | :07:43. | |
years, double the number of young people out of work for more than | :07:43. | :07:50. | |
six months than one year ago, a situation where growth has stalled | :07:50. | :07:55. | |
and an unprecedented squeeze on living standards. Wages stuck. | :07:55. | :07:59. | |
Prices rising, including the price of the weekly food stock and the | :07:59. | :08:05. | |
price of heating your home. In short, we have an economy not | :08:05. | :08:10. | |
working for the working people of this country. Does it look like | :08:10. | :08:13. | |
this is a Conservative-led Government that has answers to | :08:13. | :08:16. | |
those challenges? It certainly does not from what we have seen in | :08:16. | :08:20. | |
advance of this Budget. They have not been talking or arguing about | :08:20. | :08:24. | |
jobs and how we create jobs in this economy. They have not been talking | :08:24. | :08:29. | |
of arguing about how we get growth moving and change, George Osborne's | :08:29. | :08:34. | |
approach. They seem to have been agonising over whether to cut the | :08:34. | :08:40. | |
50p tax rate for those earning more than �150,000 a year. That is no | :08:40. | :08:43. | |
answer to the problems that the vast majority of the people of | :08:43. | :08:48. | |
Britain are facing. What do we need? We need a Budget for jobs and | :08:48. | :08:51. | |
living standards that does three things. First of all a Budget that | :08:51. | :08:56. | |
changes course on the short term, on the way that the Chancellor and | :08:56. | :09:00. | |
the Prime Minister have got about addressing the talent of growth and | :09:00. | :09:05. | |
deficit reduction. -- have gone about addressing the challenge of | :09:06. | :09:08. | |
growth and deficit reduction. We warned that cutting too far and too | :09:08. | :09:14. | |
fast would not work and we have been proved correct, unfortunately, | :09:14. | :09:18. | |
about what would happen. If you look at what is happening in the | :09:18. | :09:22. | |
United States with Barack Obama, growth is stronger and jobs are | :09:22. | :09:27. | |
being created more quickly in that economy. The result of him taking a | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
different approach. The first thing George Osborne should do in the | :09:31. | :09:34. | |
Budget is to change course. That was the Labour leader speaking in | :09:34. | :09:37. | |
the last few minutes. I have been joined by the shadow chief | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
secretary to the Treasury, Rachel Reeves. Thank you for coming on the | :09:42. | :09:48. | |
programme. What are you actually advocating specifically? We know | :09:48. | :09:52. | |
about the five-point plan. What is new about the economic policy from | :09:52. | :09:57. | |
Labour to stimulate the economy? have a plan for jobs and growth | :09:57. | :10:02. | |
which includes stimulus for employers taking on new workers and | :10:02. | :10:06. | |
cuts to VAT. There are also issues about fairness. We have seen that | :10:06. | :10:11. | |
with changes to child benefit, which means that a single income | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
households owning �43,000 stands to lose all of that child benefit from | :10:14. | :10:21. | |
next year, but a two income family earning �84,000 could keep all of | :10:21. | :10:25. | |
their child benefit. And with tax credits, from next month, in just a | :10:25. | :10:30. | |
few weeks' time families that can only work between 16 and 24 hours, | :10:30. | :10:34. | |
often because of the jobs and 80 hours not being available, they | :10:34. | :10:41. | |
stand to lose all their tax credits which would mean some families will | :10:41. | :10:49. | |
not be better off unless they go on to benefits. We want to reverse | :10:49. | :10:56. | |
that by reining in on the avoidance of stamp duty at the top. On the | :10:56. | :11:00. | |
issue of tax, the Liberal Democrats have been talking about it, too. | :11:00. | :11:04. | |
Labour want to keep the 50p top rate of tax. Would the party be | :11:05. | :11:11. | |
prepared to give it up to support a mansion tax, for example? We will | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
support the Government on a mansion tax. �2 million properties or lower. | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
We will support the Government if they go ahead with the mansion tax | :11:19. | :11:27. | |
and the talk is about properties worth less �2 million -- worth more | :11:27. | :11:36. | |
than �200,000. We do not want to affect families with the middle | :11:36. | :11:41. | |
income living standard. But what is the middle income? What is the | :11:41. | :11:46. | |
upper limit that you are talking about? Families earning �40,000, | :11:46. | :11:51. | |
�60,000 a year, families that are struggling. The priority should not | :11:51. | :11:58. | |
be families earning �150,000, you are in the top income bracket. That | :11:58. | :12:02. | |
money should be used to relieve pressure on ordinary families | :12:02. | :12:10. | |
facing cuts in tax credits and rising fuel and energy bills. | :12:10. | :12:14. | |
about the top rate of tax being brought in for families earning | :12:14. | :12:21. | |
�100,000 instead of �150,000? would keep it at �150,000. We think | :12:21. | :12:26. | |
that is the right policy right now. We don't think it should be the | :12:26. | :12:36. | |
:12:36. | :12:38. | ||
mansion tax or the 50p tax rate, we think it should be both. What about | :12:38. | :12:44. | |
the tycoon tax? We are all about cutting out tax avoidance. Ed Balls | :12:44. | :12:48. | |
has spoken about cutting down on tax avoidance on stamp duty. Nick | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
Clegg is desperate to win back the support of his party, who have | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
abandoned him on changes to the National Health Service, as we saw | :12:55. | :13:00. | |
at the weekend. He has come up with this idea of a tycoon tax. But he | :13:00. | :13:04. | |
is in the Government, he is Deputy Prime Minister, and when he talks | :13:04. | :13:09. | |
about these things is he talking about a Liberal Democrat or is he | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
talking as the Deputy Prime Minister? We will find out about | :13:13. | :13:21. | |
that. How will you pay for these commitments? You want to keep the | :13:21. | :13:25. | |
50p top rate of tax and you want mansion tax. The basically want | :13:25. | :13:30. | |
more taxes at a higher level. but at the higher level. And child | :13:30. | :13:40. | |
:13:40. | :13:40. | ||
benefit. And VAT. We would have a mansion tax to support tax cuts for | :13:40. | :13:45. | |
people on more modest in comes. but you still want to cut VAT and | :13:45. | :13:49. | |
keep child benefit. How would that be paid for? It is about priorities | :13:49. | :13:54. | |
and this Government is Pretoria's into tax cuts for the bags. We are | :13:54. | :14:04. | |
saying reinstate the bankers's taxes. There has been a scheme for | :14:04. | :14:09. | |
new businesses which has not worked. There is �100,000 left a mark which | :14:09. | :14:16. | |
we want to use. What about the proposal which has not been fleshed | :14:16. | :14:19. | |
out of tax relief on pension contributions for higher-rate | :14:19. | :14:24. | |
taxpayers? Reducing that would bring in an awful lot of money. | :14:24. | :14:30. | |
Alistair Darling's last Budget, we set out that people earning | :14:30. | :14:36. | |
�150,000 would get tax relief at the basic rate of 20%. For all | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
higher rate taxpayers? That is what Alistair Darling said, tax relief | :14:40. | :14:45. | |
at the basic rate rather than 50%. George Osborne reversed that in his | :14:45. | :14:51. | |
first Budget. Actually people in the top 1% are getting more tax | :14:51. | :14:56. | |
relief than they would have under a Labour Government. Is it fair to | :14:56. | :14:59. | |
hit the pensions of people but a higher rate taxpayers and still | :14:59. | :15:06. | |
allow them to get child benefit? -- that are higher rate taxpayers. | :15:06. | :15:10. | |
think that it is right that we have a universal child benefit because | :15:10. | :15:17. | |
there are costs... Higher rate taxpayers could afford that. There | :15:17. | :15:21. | |
are administrative costs and people paying into the system and it is | :15:21. | :15:25. | |
vital that they get something extra, whether it is the basic state | :15:25. | :15:28. | |
pension or child benefit, to support people when they have extra | :15:28. | :15:36. | |
It is a difficult process, made worse by the fact it has been | :15:36. | :15:41. | |
fleshed out in public and everybody is arguing. What is that doing, do | :15:41. | :15:46. | |
you think, to the process itself? First, toy not think we could refer | :15:46. | :15:56. | |
:15:56. | :15:58. | ||
to it as a "confused budget." You are speculating. It is not just | :15:58. | :16:03. | |
we speculating. Government ministers are speculating. It is a | :16:03. | :16:08. | |
coalition. We don't normally hear people bidding in the same way. | :16:08. | :16:12. | |
First of all, the Liberal Democrats are doing what the Labour Party is | :16:12. | :16:17. | |
doing. Labour are the opposition. noticed that. But the fact is that | :16:17. | :16:22. | |
every party at the moment is trying to make clear water between itself | :16:22. | :16:25. | |
and other parties. It is difficult for the Liberal Democrats to do. | :16:25. | :16:30. | |
Nick Clegg is trying to hold a voter base together, so has to do a | :16:30. | :16:33. | |
dog whistle politics. The Labour Party, to a great extent, are doing | :16:33. | :16:39. | |
the same. I think, watching that clip of Ed Miliband, it's hard not | :16:39. | :16:44. | |
to pity him really in a way. He is trying desperately to create a | :16:44. | :16:49. | |
policy that sticks and means something. Most of this is debating | :16:49. | :16:53. | |
around the same terrain. They are debating. Row are trying to grab | :16:53. | :16:56. | |
the same people. You debate who the average household are. | :16:56. | :16:59. | |
Conservatives want the average household to be on their side. | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
Everybody does. It is a terrible mistake for Mr Miliband to cite the | :17:03. | :17:07. | |
situation in America. Yes, there has been a slight upturn in the | :17:07. | :17:11. | |
number of jobs being created. Look at the debt and the deficit in | :17:11. | :17:15. | |
America. America is in more debt than it has been any time since | :17:15. | :17:20. | |
World War II. It won World War II. What has it got this time? | :17:20. | :17:24. | |
Government are borrowing �158 billion more than they planned | :17:24. | :17:28. | |
because unemployment is growing. The reality is unless the | :17:28. | :17:31. | |
Government get a plan for jobs and growths they will not be able to | :17:31. | :17:35. | |
get the deficit down, reduce debt. That is the predicament that George | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
Osborne finds himself in and why we need a plan for jobs and growth. | :17:40. | :17:43. | |
There is a predicament. It is a predicament your party left this | :17:43. | :17:48. | |
Government. David Cameron says he wants the | :17:48. | :17:52. | |
Human Rights Act to be replaced by a British Bill of Rights. Last year | :17:52. | :17:55. | |
the coalition set up a commission to look at the idea, which the | :17:55. | :17:58. | |
Prime Minister says, would restore the sovereignty of the British | :17:58. | :18:01. | |
Parliament. Now one of the commission members has resigned, | :18:01. | :18:05. | |
saying Nick Clegg and the Justice Secretary, Ken Clarke, have been | :18:05. | :18:08. | |
working to frustrate plans for reform. Michael Pinto-Duschinsky | :18:08. | :18:14. | |
set out his frustrations to Andrew Neil on yesterday's Sunday Politics. | :18:14. | :18:19. | |
It sound like you have lost faith in the commission to deliver any | :18:19. | :18:25. | |
real change - where does that leave your position? Well, I am afraid it | :18:25. | :18:30. | |
leaves me with no alternative but to resign because I think the cause | :18:30. | :18:39. | |
is so important to look in a mature way at human rights and to make it | :18:39. | :18:41. | |
consistent with parliamentary sovereignty that I do need to | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
pursue it, but not on the commission. Well, that was Andrew | :18:45. | :18:49. | |
Neil yesterday, talking to Michael Pinto-Duschinsky. Let's join our | :18:49. | :18:53. | |
political correspondent, who is outside Westminster. It is an | :18:53. | :18:57. | |
interesting debate. On one hand you have a gentleman who has resigned, | :18:57. | :19:00. | |
who many will not have heard of and resign from a commission many | :19:00. | :19:04. | |
people will not have heard of. Underneath that is an issue that | :19:04. | :19:09. | |
very much gets people going. Who ultimately is responsible for | :19:09. | :19:13. | |
deciding whether prisoners get the vote for instance? Or whether the | :19:13. | :19:18. | |
radical Muslim preacher should get deported? That is where you get a | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
tussle about whether it is a decision made by Parliament, behind | :19:21. | :19:27. | |
us, or by judges in Strasbourg. A sense from speaking to people | :19:27. | :19:30. | |
around the commission in the last 24 hours that yes they might have | :19:30. | :19:34. | |
found Dr Michael hard to work with, but others say some of what he was | :19:34. | :19:41. | |
saying resonates. It matters. It's effectively a reflection of | :19:41. | :19:45. | |
difficulties around that commission. A sense that you have people there | :19:45. | :19:50. | |
reflecting the commission of a liberal bench -- bent. It cannot | :19:50. | :19:54. | |
conclude anything when it reports at Christmas. One person suggested | :19:54. | :19:58. | |
to me that those of a right-leaning persuasion might publish a minority | :19:58. | :20:07. | |
report when this commission reports at the end of the year. We have two | :20:07. | :20:11. | |
guests here. Douglas, I was looking at the terms of reference of this | :20:11. | :20:15. | |
commission this morning. It will investigate the creation of a UK | :20:15. | :20:21. | |
Bill of Rights, that it incorporates and builds on our | :20:21. | :20:24. | |
obligations on the European Court of Human Rights. It sound like a | :20:24. | :20:28. | |
fudge. From the beginning when I saw the terms of reference I was | :20:29. | :20:32. | |
suspicious. I thought it was perhaps designed to kick this into | :20:32. | :20:37. | |
the long grass. It turns out the grass was not all that long, after | :20:37. | :20:40. | |
all. It is unfortunate Michael Pinto-Duschinsky has stood down. He | :20:40. | :20:46. | |
was an independent voice on a commission, otherwise dominated by | :20:46. | :20:50. | |
retired judges, human rights establishment figures. He has gone. | :20:50. | :20:57. | |
This shows this commission is not up to the job to review our | :20:57. | :21:01. | |
position. He's not up to the job? This was always an interesting | :21:01. | :21:04. | |
beast. Let's not forget going into the last general election, the | :21:04. | :21:10. | |
Liberal Democrats and the Conservatives had opposing views on | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
the Human Rights Act. On the issue of his resignation - of course we | :21:14. | :21:20. | |
don't know the particular dynamics behind the scenes and conservices. | :21:20. | :21:23. | |
From his public statement -- conversations. From his public | :21:23. | :21:29. | |
statement, it seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding on his | :21:29. | :21:35. | |
part about the role of this commission. | :21:35. | :21:40. | |
I think ultimately you cannot reconcile the idea of judicial | :21:40. | :21:45. | |
supremacy with democracy. The human rights establishment, those who see | :21:45. | :21:50. | |
themselves as modernising want us to go back to a pre-modern idea, | :21:50. | :21:54. | |
where ideas are made on an elite rather than what the people want | :21:54. | :22:00. | |
democratically. The architects of human right rules, we cannot | :22:00. | :22:03. | |
reconcile what they want with democracy. Is this a problem of | :22:03. | :22:08. | |
personnel in the Government? One of the suggestions was that Ken Clarke | :22:09. | :22:13. | |
was leaning on this position. That is denied by others. Is Ken Clarke | :22:13. | :22:17. | |
the right person for the job? Prime Minister in Number Ten finds | :22:17. | :22:21. | |
themselves with a reform. You have to decide do you remove the road | :22:21. | :22:26. | |
block or have the reform. David Cameron needs a clear choice. He | :22:26. | :22:36. | |
:22:36. | :22:36. | ||
either takes on the establishment and gets serious or go into the | :22:36. | :22:41. | |
next election and explain why. Where will we be in 12 months' time | :22:41. | :22:47. | |
when we have the results of this commission? What do you think will | :22:47. | :22:51. | |
happen? Who knows? It is a serious commission. There are eight members | :22:51. | :22:54. | |
of it now that Michael Pinto- Duschinsky has been replaced. | :22:54. | :22:57. | |
Anyone who believes in human rights in this country should take the | :22:57. | :23:02. | |
threat to our current human rights arrangements seriously. I believe | :23:02. | :23:06. | |
passionately in human rights. The way to secure it is through | :23:06. | :23:16. | |
:23:16. | :23:16. | ||
democracy and real liberalism, not giving power to a technocrat elite. | :23:16. | :23:22. | |
-- Thank you for your time here on College Green. A new commissioner | :23:22. | :23:27. | |
has been appointed to replace Dr Michael. Another lawyer. So all the | :23:27. | :23:31. | |
commissioners will now be lawyers. As I say, their report, whether a | :23:31. | :23:34. | |
majority or minority report will be published at the end of the year. | :23:34. | :23:40. | |
Thank you very much. Let's pick up, Douglas. The other Douglas said Ken | :23:40. | :23:44. | |
Clarke should go, we need a new Justice Secretary. Do you agree? | :23:44. | :23:47. | |
is strong from a Conservative backbencher. I am not sure whether | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
Ken Clarke himself is the problem. There is a problem in the | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
Government about how it is approaching this. The nature, the | :23:54. | :23:58. | |
parties had different views about this. There are terrible problems | :23:58. | :24:03. | |
with the convention and the court though, which I think should not be | :24:03. | :24:08. | |
avoided. There are very few options open at the moment. There is the | :24:08. | :24:12. | |
option I raised the other week of ignoring the court when it comes up | :24:12. | :24:20. | |
with crazy decisions such as Qatarda. In the long-term you is to | :24:20. | :24:27. | |
negotiate in some way or get out. There was a report by another | :24:27. | :24:31. | |
commissioner saying that there could be a protocol added to the | :24:31. | :24:35. | |
convention and that could be a way around it. Realistically, as you | :24:35. | :24:41. | |
said yourself, we're in a coalition. There will not be the progress that | :24:41. | :24:47. | |
you and some in the Government would like to see. As was said the | :24:47. | :24:53. | |
grass is not as long as when they kicked it in. You cannot say strong | :24:53. | :24:57. | |
enough the convention of the European Court because it is more | :24:57. | :25:00. | |
about laws. It is about sovereignty. It is about whether Parliament in | :25:00. | :25:04. | |
this country can be dictated to or whether it decides for the people. | :25:04. | :25:08. | |
That isn't a small question. It's not. As you say may not be one that | :25:08. | :25:12. | |
is answered in the near future. Now Kosovo, Sierra Leone and of course | :25:12. | :25:16. | |
Iraq and Afghanistan - just some of the places where British troops | :25:16. | :25:24. | |
have been involved in active combat in recent years. The policy is | :25:24. | :25:29. | |
called interventionalism. The idea it can be used if it is to bring | :25:29. | :25:34. | |
peace to the civilian population. Does that doctrine hold true? If it | :25:34. | :25:38. | |
does high not apply it to Iran and Syria? | :25:38. | :25:46. | |
David Thompson reports. Britain's conflict s are seen at | :25:46. | :25:50. | |
the national army museum in London. Many of the conflicts remembered | :25:50. | :25:54. | |
here were fought by Britain under the banner of using forbs to bring | :25:54. | :26:00. | |
about a greater good. Liberal interventionalism. These days the | :26:00. | :26:04. | |
possibility is on the possibility of military action in Syria or Iran. | :26:04. | :26:11. | |
Could we and should we? Syria and Iran are both very oppressive | :26:11. | :26:16. | |
regimes. Syria far more so. Iran is also a danger to its neighbours and | :26:16. | :26:21. | |
particularly to Israel. To take force, the use of military force | :26:21. | :26:26. | |
from outside out of the evasion I think would be irresponsible and | :26:26. | :26:33. | |
dangerous. The doctrine of liberal intervenalism is one that is still | :26:33. | :26:37. | |
value yoobl. We should inter-- valuable. We should intervene if we | :26:37. | :26:44. | |
think we can make the world a safer plails. What about now -- place. | :26:44. | :26:50. | |
What about now? Although the loss of life in Syria currently is a | :26:51. | :26:55. | |
moral outrage, I still think the circumstances make intervention | :26:55. | :26:58. | |
extremely difficult. The difficulties of a military attack | :26:59. | :27:05. | |
on Iran is to know precisely what needs to be attacked to reduce or | :27:05. | :27:10. | |
remove or render incapable their developing nuclear weapon | :27:10. | :27:14. | |
capability. If not Syria, where the regime is killing its own people, | :27:14. | :27:19. | |
or Iran, which is widely suspected of developing a nuclear weapon, | :27:19. | :27:26. | |
where? The one thing mader than using military force would be | :27:26. | :27:29. | |
allowed for Tehran to acquire new nuclear weapons. That would be | :27:29. | :27:36. | |
dangerous for Israel and the world. I think you have to retain the | :27:36. | :27:40. | |
option of military force. Maybe there is something for that - a | :27:40. | :27:43. | |
failed military attack on Iran. Which is why some experts think it | :27:44. | :27:48. | |
may be better to think the unthinkable. If we have tried to | :27:48. | :27:52. | |
bomb Iran, not to have a bomb, we will wind up with a bombed Iran, | :27:52. | :27:56. | |
with a bomb. A country that's angry, that has been set very much against | :27:56. | :27:59. | |
the West. That could be the worst of all options. Maybe the least | :27:59. | :28:04. | |
worse option is to accept that we cannot stop them having a weapon, | :28:04. | :28:07. | |
even though we have tried diplomatically, economically, | :28:07. | :28:11. | |
perhaps ruled out military means and therefore live to -- learn to | :28:11. | :28:16. | |
live with Iran with a bomb. War, whatever the pretext is not about | :28:16. | :28:22. | |
theory, it is about people. Be they Iranian, Syrian or British, | :28:22. | :28:27. | |
ultimately they pay the price. Douglas Murray is still with me. We | :28:27. | :28:30. | |
have been joined by Mehdi Hassan from the New Statesman. Let's start | :28:30. | :28:33. | |
with you on the humanitarian situation. It is dreadful, | :28:33. | :28:37. | |
whichever way you look at it and the scenes are distressing, | :28:37. | :28:44. | |
particularly in Homs. If you look at the justification for the | :28:44. | :28:48. | |
intervention in Libya. Gaddafi could not slaughter civilians | :28:48. | :28:54. | |
looking for democracy. Have we got to that stage now however | :28:54. | :28:58. | |
complicated the situation in Syria, an argument for intervention to | :28:58. | :29:02. | |
help civilians? In terms of killing civilians. Ast ast is giving | :29:02. | :29:07. | |
Gaddafi a run for his -- Assad is giving Gaddafi a run for his money. | :29:07. | :29:17. | |
:29:17. | :29:19. | ||
true, Syria is not Libya. You cannot, even if you want to do what | :29:19. | :29:25. | |
you did there the options are not there. Why? You would take on | :29:25. | :29:30. | |
Syrian anti-aircraft batteries. Syria has an army of 300,000- | :29:30. | :29:37. | |
400,000 men. Assad is a stronger leader than Gaddafi was. It's not | :29:37. | :29:40. | |
just people like me who criticise a lot of foreign interventions. | :29:40. | :29:45. | |
William Hague is saying, we wish we could do something in Syria, but | :29:45. | :29:49. | |
the military options are not there. A lot are saying we cannot do it in | :29:49. | :29:53. | |
Syria. Who are these opposition groups? Who would the West, if you | :29:53. | :29:57. | |
like, or the Arab League, who would they do it with against Syria? How | :29:57. | :30:03. | |
would you bring down, which is whait would be the Assad regime? | :30:03. | :30:08. | |
suggest a no-fly zone is intervention of a kind. A no-fly | :30:08. | :30:14. | |
zone means at some point you will shoot down a helicopter gunship. | :30:14. | :30:19. | |
There is retally yea Tory fire. Before you know it you have an air- | :30:20. | :30:24. | |
scale intervention. I don't think anyone is talking about a ground | :30:24. | :30:28. | |
force intervention. There is talk in Washington and elsewhere of | :30:28. | :30:31. | |
potentially arming rebel groups. Of course then you have to be specific | :30:31. | :30:41. | |
:30:41. | :30:44. | ||
We are talking about the religious country full of complexities. Who | :30:44. | :30:50. | |
would we be arming? The army is split. Their opposition groups that | :30:51. | :30:56. | |
do not want Western intervention, rightly or wrongly. They think it | :30:56. | :31:00. | |
will make sectarianism worse. Leading members of the opposition | :31:00. | :31:04. | |
on the ground do not want intervention. Then there is the | :31:04. | :31:07. | |
Free Syrian Army. They have a loose conglomeration of armed groups and | :31:07. | :31:12. | |
they do want arms. Some say that Saudi Arabia is already arming them. | :31:12. | :31:20. | |
Do we want to arm them? Go and ask Human Rights Watch what is going on | :31:20. | :31:24. | |
in Libya now, with torture and alarming murders and raping. We | :31:24. | :31:29. | |
cannot just arm violent groups without knowing who they are. | :31:29. | :31:33. | |
should not harm anybody if we do not know who they are. We do know | :31:33. | :31:38. | |
some more about people in the Free Syrian Army and they would be more | :31:38. | :31:46. | |
desirable than the President Assad regime. Whenever human rights | :31:46. | :31:49. | |
abuses go on around the world people always say that something | :31:49. | :31:54. | |
must be done and I tend to be one of the people saying that, when | :31:54. | :31:57. | |
massive amounts of civilians are being massacred I think something | :31:57. | :32:01. | |
should be done. But we have to be clear what something means and what | :32:01. | :32:08. | |
the being done means. To my mind, it would be desirable to get rid of | :32:08. | :32:11. | |
the President Assad regime and to get rid of their supporters in | :32:11. | :32:16. | |
Tehran as well. Because it would hit Iran? That is not liberal | :32:16. | :32:21. | |
intervention. Lots of people are saying it is not about | :32:21. | :32:24. | |
humanitarianism and liberal intervention falls apart. Western | :32:24. | :32:28. | |
governments use it for their strategic interests. Why intervene | :32:28. | :32:36. | |
in Syria but not Bahrain? They are our ally and that is why. I am very | :32:36. | :32:43. | |
critical of the non-intervention in Bahrain. I put it this way. There | :32:43. | :32:48. | |
are two key reasons to intervene anywhere. Firstly, humanitarian | :32:48. | :32:51. | |
concerns and secondly strategic concerns. Sometimes one of those is | :32:51. | :32:56. | |
not enough. You cannot intervene everywhere that you want to for | :32:56. | :33:00. | |
strategic reasons or for human rights issues. But sometimes the | :33:00. | :33:04. | |
two things come together and it could be desirable. And you think | :33:04. | :33:10. | |
that is the case in Syria. If humanitarian aid get through and | :33:10. | :33:12. | |
the President of that regime falls, then we are looking straight down | :33:12. | :33:18. | |
the barrel at Iran. You say it would be desirable to hit Iran in | :33:18. | :33:26. | |
that way. Would it be desirable or would we be escalating the violence | :33:26. | :33:32. | |
and conflict? I just think that the regime in Iran should be encouraged | :33:32. | :33:36. | |
to fall. They have been an enemy of hours for 30 years. They have | :33:36. | :33:40. | |
wrecked the country. We are talking about a regional conflict that | :33:40. | :33:44. | |
would spread. It is not a regional conflict. I am not suggesting that | :33:44. | :33:51. | |
we intervene in Iran. That is a slightly potted history. Both sides | :33:51. | :33:57. | |
have demonised the other. We overthrew the Government in 1993 | :33:57. | :34:00. | |
and we backed Saddam Hussein when he was gassing Iranians. Let's | :34:00. | :34:04. | |
understand why the other side might hate us a little bit. The logical | :34:04. | :34:09. | |
end step of Douglas's rhetoric is intervention. That is what has been | :34:09. | :34:13. | |
going on, ratcheting up the temperature. Either you | :34:13. | :34:18. | |
deliberately go to war or you end up with a conflict accidentally and | :34:18. | :34:21. | |
that would be a disaster and it would make Iraq look like a walk in | :34:21. | :34:27. | |
the park. That is not necessarily the end point. If the sanctions | :34:27. | :34:30. | |
continue to bite, then the opposition that most of us would | :34:30. | :34:34. | |
dream of, that the Iranian people get their country back from the | :34:34. | :34:39. | |
tyranny, that would be a real possibility. Then at the Green | :34:39. | :34:44. | |
movement could finally come to power. That movement also backs | :34:44. | :34:50. | |
nuclear power and in Richmond. Do you back that? If they wanted to an | :34:50. | :34:56. | |
irate member states, then I would back that. -- to annihilate member | :34:56. | :35:01. | |
states. Thank you. Let's look at the week ahead. David Cameron is | :35:01. | :35:06. | |
jetting off to the United States to meet Barack Obama and discuss Iran | :35:06. | :35:10. | |
and Syria among other pressing international matters. It is not | :35:10. | :35:15. | |
all work because the President is whisking him on Air Force One to | :35:15. | :35:19. | |
Ohio, a key swing state in the presidential election to watch a | :35:19. | :35:27. | |
basketball game. After the commissioner from the British Bill | :35:27. | :35:30. | |
of Rights resigned on our programme on Sunday, the issue of human | :35:30. | :35:35. | |
rights comes under scrutiny this week. The Joint Committee on Human | :35:35. | :35:42. | |
Rights takes evidence from Sir Nicholas Bratza, President of the | :35:42. | :35:48. | |
European Court of Human Rights. It is an early start on Tuesday, 11 | :35:48. | :35:52. | |
o'clock, to discuss the Health and Social Care Bill. Will the | :35:52. | :35:55. | |
turbulence at the Lib Dem conference shake peers into | :35:55. | :35:58. | |
ditching the controversial bill? With the Prime Minister across the | :35:58. | :36:02. | |
pond, both parties have their deputies stepping up to the | :36:02. | :36:06. | |
dispatch box. Watch out for William Hague versus Harriet Harman on | :36:06. | :36:11. | |
Wednesday at midday. Pippa Creagh from the Evening Standard and Paul | :36:11. | :36:14. | |
Waugh from PoliticsHome joined us now. And I just have to thank my | :36:14. | :36:23. | |
guest for coming onto the programme. Now, this trip on Air Force One, | :36:23. | :36:26. | |
glamorous meetings with Barack Obama, does that mean the special | :36:26. | :36:30. | |
relationship is live and kicking? It is certainly useful for the | :36:30. | :36:33. | |
President and hopefully for the Prime Minister. He will get a lot | :36:33. | :36:37. | |
more out of this trip than was previously imagined. It seems that | :36:37. | :36:42. | |
the USA finally appreciate that Britain's role in the world, | :36:42. | :36:48. | |
particularly given a Iran and Syria in the Middle East, is crucial. | :36:48. | :36:53. | |
There was a tilt towards the Pacific but now the US they seem to | :36:53. | :37:02. | |
have -- the USA seems to have realised how important we are. | :37:02. | :37:06. | |
will not be meeting up with politicians at the Republican Party. | :37:06. | :37:13. | |
Is that a surprise? It is not a surprise. I expect the Liam Fox | :37:13. | :37:16. | |
would like him to be meeting the Republican front-runners. It is not | :37:17. | :37:21. | |
all fun and games were the Prime Minister. He will be having serious | :37:21. | :37:26. | |
discussions about defence strategy. And also about what is happening in | :37:26. | :37:31. | |
Afghanistan. In recent days we have seen the terrible events going on | :37:31. | :37:36. | |
there, particularly with the murder of civilians and children. That is | :37:36. | :37:41. | |
bound to be the top of both of the leaders' agendas. And we will be | :37:41. | :37:45. | |
talking about that in a few moments, too. Can we look back at the | :37:45. | :37:48. | |
Liberal Democrats' spring conference? All right, Nick Clegg | :37:48. | :37:52. | |
lost the vote, it will not change Government policy, but what does it | :37:52. | :37:58. | |
saved about the relationship between him and his party? -- what | :37:58. | :38:03. | |
does it say? It is embarrassing for Nick Clegg. What it will not do is | :38:03. | :38:07. | |
stop Lib Dem peers from supporting the bill in the Lords. It will give | :38:08. | :38:16. | |
Labour the opportunity, of course, do so that it is not fully behind | :38:16. | :38:26. | |
:38:26. | :38:26. | ||
the bill. -- to say that it is not fully behind the bill. Health has | :38:26. | :38:30. | |
been a hugely controversial issue for the Liberal Democrats. Now we | :38:30. | :38:34. | |
have an interesting line on tax. This idea of the tycoon tax. Lots | :38:34. | :38:38. | |
of senior Lib Dems did not seem to know about it. Do you think it has | :38:38. | :38:44. | |
been roundly rejected? This afternoon, the famous Quatt, the | :38:44. | :38:48. | |
Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister, George Osborne and Danny | :38:49. | :38:53. | |
Alexander, they will all be meeting in the Cabinet room for what I am | :38:53. | :38:57. | |
told will be a very long meeting, the final meeting ahead of the | :38:57. | :39:01. | |
Budget when they will hammer down the issues on tax for the higher | :39:01. | :39:06. | |
and lower paid. The question is whether the tycoon tax will survive | :39:06. | :39:10. | |
beyond this weekend. It will not be in his Budget and it has been | :39:10. | :39:15. | |
quietly doused down by the Treasury overnight. Even within the Lib Dems, | :39:15. | :39:19. | |
there is obviously division, with the Deputy Prime Minister deriding | :39:19. | :39:24. | |
Lord Oakeshott for being one of the tycoon's within the party that does | :39:24. | :39:30. | |
not like the tycoon tax. Right! And finally, William Hague versus | :39:30. | :39:35. | |
Harriet Harman? Looking forward to it? I am. William Hague has | :39:35. | :39:37. | |
reputation for being a great showman but Harriet Harman has | :39:38. | :39:45. | |
always held her own. She has lost her chief stand-up jokes from her | :39:45. | :39:50. | |
team, but we will see how she gets on without that. The vast majority | :39:50. | :39:53. | |
of people's eyes will be on what is happening over the pond rather than | :39:53. | :39:57. | |
in the House of Commons. You could be right! Thank you. | :39:57. | :40:04. | |
I have been joined by a Rehman Chishti, Owen Smith and Eilidh | :40:04. | :40:08. | |
Whiteford for the rest of the programme. Can I start with | :40:08. | :40:11. | |
Afghanistan, because that will no doubt be discussed with Barack | :40:11. | :40:17. | |
Obama? Do you feel we are safer with the mission in Afghanistan? | :40:17. | :40:22. | |
think we have no choice but to go into the mission in Afghanistan. We | :40:22. | :40:26. | |
went into the country for our national security. So you think it | :40:26. | :40:30. | |
has worked? David Cameron says we are safe on the streets because of | :40:30. | :40:34. | |
our boys up there? I did eight years of foreign policy with | :40:34. | :40:41. | |
Benazir Bhutto before I came into policy in this country. The attacks | :40:41. | :40:45. | |
in 2005 were linked to that region. The money we have spent on | :40:45. | :40:49. | |
education, changing attitudes from radicalisation to education, to fit | :40:49. | :40:52. | |
in with the broad approach, that is absolutely right. But links in with | :40:52. | :40:58. | |
military action but we do need the political settlement as well. | :40:58. | :41:02. | |
is the point people are making. If we are keeping our streets safer, | :41:02. | :41:06. | |
that is one thing, but if we wanted to create democracy in Afghanistan, | :41:06. | :41:12. | |
that was not the point and we have strayed. Absolutely. In 1989, the | :41:12. | :41:16. | |
international community left Afghanistan in a vacuum and the | :41:17. | :41:20. | |
Taliban came in. We have to make this sustainable and linked to our | :41:20. | :41:25. | |
community over here. Do you back that? The idea that troops are not | :41:25. | :41:30. | |
just fighting the Taliban but also Al-Qaeda. Is it an imaginary enemy | :41:30. | :41:36. | |
in that sense? I think that Rehman Chishti is right. We are safer as a | :41:36. | :41:39. | |
result of what we have done in Afghanistan. There is no doubt | :41:39. | :41:45. | |
about that. The plan was obviously that Afghanistan had become an area | :41:45. | :41:50. | |
of the world where Al-Qaeda was harboured and now it is harder for | :41:50. | :41:54. | |
them in Afghanistan. Therefore we are safe in the West. We also | :41:54. | :41:58. | |
always said that installing democracy, and seeing a safer and | :41:58. | :42:07. | |
more Deborah -- democratic country it would always be in our interests | :42:07. | :42:13. | |
and it is about that. And it is about supporting our troops in | :42:13. | :42:18. | |
difficult circumstances. But following the death of the 16 | :42:18. | :42:21. | |
civilians and the six servicemen, will the public be questioning when | :42:21. | :42:25. | |
the troops come home? Yes. We must always ask that question and as | :42:25. | :42:29. | |
politicians we must always ask that question on behalf of the public. | :42:29. | :42:34. | |
Do you want it to be sooner? We all want them to come back as soon as | :42:34. | :42:38. | |
possible and we all aspire to that. We need to make sure that they | :42:38. | :42:42. | |
finish the job. If you talk to people, and I do regularly, that | :42:42. | :42:45. | |
are fighting in Afghanistan, then they want to feel like they have | :42:46. | :42:50. | |
finished the job. They do not want to leave prematurely. Because the | :42:50. | :42:54. | |
risk is that if they leave to sin than the Taliban will move in and | :42:54. | :43:00. | |
their work will be damaged? -- leave too soon. I think that is | :43:00. | :43:04. | |
right. We have to come back to the reasons why we were in Afghanistan | :43:04. | :43:07. | |
in the first place and why many years on whether those objectives | :43:07. | :43:11. | |
are still being met and if they are still being met through the | :43:11. | :43:15. | |
military response. Do you think they are being that? I have real | :43:15. | :43:19. | |
questions over it, I must confess. Clearly there were national | :43:19. | :43:23. | |
security reasons for going in there, but I do question what our troops | :43:23. | :43:28. | |
are doing now and if that is really going to strengthen civil society | :43:28. | :43:33. | |
effectively in Afghanistan? We are not releasing the evidence of that, | :43:33. | :43:42. | |
I don't think. How -- we are not really seeing the evidence. I think | :43:42. | :43:45. | |
all the families want to see our people brought home. I think they | :43:45. | :43:53. | |
want to see that conflict brought to some sort of sustainable | :43:53. | :43:58. | |
resolution for the people of Afghanistan, too. We have debated | :43:59. | :44:02. | |
this in Parliament. When the Prime Minister comes back, a statement | :44:02. | :44:07. | |
will be made on that. Looking at the situation in Afghanistan, | :44:07. | :44:13. | |
180,000 members in the Afghan army and members of the police force as | :44:13. | :44:17. | |
well, linked to education and infrastructure. We are giving | :44:17. | :44:20. | |
Afghanistan an opportunity to master their own destiny. There | :44:20. | :44:24. | |
needs to be more political work as well as military work to make sure | :44:24. | :44:27. | |
Afghanistan can play a key role in the international community. Thank | :44:27. | :44:30. | |
you. If you caught the train from | :44:30. | :44:33. | |
Gateshead this weekend you may have seen some sullen Liberal Democrat | :44:33. | :44:37. | |
faces on the way back from the spring conference. But one member | :44:37. | :44:44. | |
was more silent than the others. Nick Clegg suffered a series of | :44:45. | :44:49. | |
blows, after 10 party activists to rip off the rear view mirror on the | :44:49. | :44:56. | |
health you. -- telling party activists. They still rejected the | :44:56. | :45:06. | |
bill in a non-binding vote. Nick Clegg's attempts to steer | :45:06. | :45:14. | |
conversation away towards tycoon taxes did not go very well because | :45:14. | :45:18. | |
he had not of the Business Secretary about the plans. Vince | :45:19. | :45:22. | |
Cable commented that he had not seen the details of the proposals | :45:22. | :45:27. | |
and could not give a very informed. Very honest of him. He said the | :45:27. | :45:32. | |
idea is interesting for and taxing the wealthy has been a popular | :45:32. | :45:35. | |
discussion point among Liberal Democrat but the mansion tax has | :45:35. | :45:39. | |
long been seen as the favoured plan and the tycoon tax seemed to take | :45:39. | :45:44. | |
people by surprise. With the Budget a week away and negotiations in the | :45:44. | :45:51. | |
final stages, the big question is what Nick Clegg will be able to | :45:51. | :46:01. | |
:46:01. | :46:08. | ||
We'll have to wait for the Budget for the Chancellor to lay that out. | :46:09. | :46:15. | |
I am now joined by Andrew George. It was a surprise to you the tycoon | :46:15. | :46:19. | |
tax? We enjoy a good debate. One of the great things about the Liberal | :46:19. | :46:24. | |
Democrats is we have very open debates. It was hardly a great | :46:24. | :46:28. | |
weekend for Nick Clegg, was it? spoke extremely well. The fact is | :46:28. | :46:32. | |
the values of the party were presented very well. And the fact | :46:32. | :46:41. | |
is that we have debates which other parties would rather we kept behind | :46:41. | :46:47. | |
closed doors. You are having open debates. You are not supporting a | :46:47. | :46:52. | |
basic thread of Government policy. People need to grow up. After the | :46:52. | :46:57. | |
2010 general election election and reg naiz debates is about in public, | :46:57. | :47:02. | |
enjoying the wider community. Not having the Blair type control | :47:03. | :47:08. | |
Government we had in the past. We have a very open and democratic | :47:08. | :47:11. | |
system. You would like Nick Clegg to start again with the health | :47:11. | :47:16. | |
bill? I think Nick has done an excellent job in securing some | :47:16. | :47:22. | |
important amendments to the Health Bill. Not enough? Not good enough. | :47:22. | :47:28. | |
I am clear on my view on it. I am pleased the party supports my view. | :47:28. | :47:33. | |
We're having an open debate about this. We have a healthy party. We | :47:33. | :47:38. | |
welcome healthy debate. In terms of the Bill itself, you want it ripped | :47:38. | :47:43. | |
up, you want it scrapped, you want it withdrawn? You can use whatever | :47:43. | :47:47. | |
terms you wish. But the fact is, yes, it should be withdrawn, in my | :47:47. | :47:52. | |
view. If we are to take the health's profession with us and the | :47:52. | :47:57. | |
Patients Association and other groups then it is clear the Health | :47:57. | :48:01. | |
Bill, what we ought to do is go back to the coalition agreement. I | :48:01. | :48:07. | |
signed up to a coalition agreement. It will not happen this idea of it | :48:07. | :48:09. | |
being withdrawn, just from a political point of view. | :48:09. | :48:14. | |
Westminster politics at the moment is dominated by this contest in the | :48:14. | :48:18. | |
environment. Partly fuelled by the media itself. Actually it's not | :48:18. | :48:23. | |
possible for Cameron or anyone else to actually withdraw the Bill at | :48:23. | :48:28. | |
this stage without media headlines saying humiliating climbdown. We | :48:28. | :48:35. | |
have to find a mechanism by which we can achieve a dignified exit. | :48:35. | :48:40. | |
this appropriate at this time, on a bill like the Health Bill? I don't | :48:40. | :48:43. | |
think we can say to the Lib Dems how they should have their | :48:43. | :48:46. | |
conferences. They have their conference, they have their debate. | :48:46. | :48:50. | |
Do I think the coalition is working well? I think it is working well. I | :48:50. | :48:57. | |
think the Health Bill is the right bill. We are in a position where | :48:57. | :49:01. | |
the party activists don't support it and peers could cause trouble. | :49:01. | :49:05. | |
At the end of the day, the Lib Dems having a debate, it is right and | :49:05. | :49:10. | |
proper for democracy. But should be ignored? Not at all. Let them have | :49:10. | :49:15. | |
their debate. We've had a debate in Parliament. It is the right Bill. | :49:15. | :49:20. | |
You are pleased - will you join one the Lib Dem peers in trying to get | :49:20. | :49:27. | |
this withdrawn and rewritten? hope so. I think Andrew George has | :49:27. | :49:31. | |
fought a one or two man liberal rather-guard action against the | :49:31. | :49:37. | |
Bill. I share many of his views. It is an unmitigated disaster. The | :49:38. | :49:42. | |
Government ought to withdraw it. I hope in tomorrow's debate we will | :49:42. | :49:48. | |
see further changes. Do you welcome the support for your campaign? | :49:48. | :49:53. | |
fact is that the legacy which the Government inherited is one which | :49:53. | :49:58. | |
did mean there were further reforms required to the NHS. That was in | :49:58. | :50:02. | |
the coalition agreement. Going as faur as the Government proposed is | :50:02. | :50:06. | |
a major disruption to the NHS and quite disastrous as far as taking | :50:06. | :50:10. | |
it forward. This debate is about the NHS in England and does not | :50:10. | :50:15. | |
affect you in that way. What is your view from the outside of what | :50:15. | :50:19. | |
Cameron and Lansley are doing? may not affect us directly. The vau | :50:19. | :50:26. | |
in Scotland is we're very relieved we are not having to have this Bill | :50:26. | :50:30. | |
on us. You don't think that there should be any reform? There are | :50:30. | :50:36. | |
other ways to do costs N Scotland we have seen investment in | :50:36. | :50:43. | |
preventative services. Our conference was around erltly | :50:43. | :50:48. | |
detection in cancer, for example. The -- early detection in cancer, | :50:48. | :50:53. | |
for example. What has worried us is it could see cuts in the overall | :50:54. | :50:57. | |
budget of the health service. That could have a knock-on effect in | :50:57. | :51:01. | |
terms of the overall grant to the NHS. That is the big concern. In | :51:01. | :51:05. | |
terms of the policy direction, what has struck me has been the | :51:05. | :51:08. | |
opposition from health care professionals in England and their | :51:08. | :51:13. | |
deep concerns about the direction of travel this Bill has taken. | :51:13. | :51:18. | |
Where did the idea of tycoon tax come from? As far as this issue is | :51:18. | :51:23. | |
concerned and I think that the -- I think that Vince Cable has been | :51:23. | :51:29. | |
clear and he has persistently floated the idea of a mansion tax. | :51:29. | :51:33. | |
The tycoon tax has been debated within the party on a number of | :51:33. | :51:40. | |
occasions. Were you surprised it was brought up before the Budget. | :51:40. | :51:44. | |
We're having a Spring Conference. It is reasonable for Nick Clegg to | :51:44. | :51:49. | |
flot it in the way he did. -- float it in the way he did. Of course | :51:49. | :51:53. | |
with a more open style... Row are doing very well here on the open | :51:53. | :51:57. | |
style. Do you not think it is a trade-off? He's not going to get | :51:57. | :52:05. | |
the mansion tax is he? We are actually... It is not fully-formed. | :52:05. | :52:11. | |
I did not say that. I was talking theatrically that if we are move | :52:11. | :52:16. | |
from a situation of actually very controlled and restrained policy | :52:16. | :52:20. | |
debates, which people cannot take part in. Is it a good idea? I think | :52:20. | :52:25. | |
what we have to do, we have to have, we have to be pragmatic about it - | :52:25. | :52:31. | |
is it deliverable. The principal is fieb. It is one thing, but I -- | :52:31. | :52:35. | |
fine. It is one thing, but I suggest the details have not been | :52:35. | :52:41. | |
worked out. Would Labour support it? I think if Andrew or Nick Clegg | :52:41. | :52:44. | |
could explain what they mean by it and make us and everybody else | :52:44. | :52:48. | |
understand what it would mean and how it would work then we would | :52:48. | :52:53. | |
back it. It is the rate at which it would be set F you were going to | :52:53. | :52:58. | |
set a tycoon tax, where would you set it? When Nick Clegg saw the | :52:58. | :53:02. | |
debate in the US about what the effective rate of tax was, and | :53:02. | :53:06. | |
decided he would transpose that to the UK, without any real thought | :53:06. | :53:11. | |
and it was clearly on the back of a fag packet. You said the principle | :53:11. | :53:14. | |
of ensuring that millionaires have a sort of minimum floor, they | :53:14. | :53:20. | |
cannot fall below in terms of tax, to take that analogy from America, | :53:20. | :53:26. | |
what rate would you set it at? think we need broadly what we have | :53:26. | :53:33. | |
got, which is a prg sieve taxation system. -- progressive taxation | :53:33. | :53:37. | |
system. Clearly, the problem is you have a Deputy Prime Minister who is | :53:37. | :53:44. | |
floating this out of the wide blue sky, who is supporting a Government | :53:44. | :53:53. | |
to cut the rate for those earning over �150,000. Just very briefly, | :53:53. | :53:59. | |
tycoon tax will not make it, do you think mansion tax will make it? | :54:00. | :54:04. | |
are seeing it is different being in opposition than being in Government. | :54:04. | :54:07. | |
The Liberal Democrats are in Government. My colleagues, the Lib | :54:07. | :54:12. | |
Dems, they come out with ideas. There is a difference between being | :54:12. | :54:17. | |
in opposition than in Government. We will have to wait. We will. Now, | :54:17. | :54:21. | |
and Andrew George thank you very much for coming in. That is right. | :54:21. | :54:25. | |
In Quentin Letts's guide to the workings of Westminster here's our | :54:25. | :54:33. | |
parliamentary insider with the low- down on committees. | :54:33. | :54:39. | |
C is for committees. Carer said it was a committee with four back legs. | :54:39. | :54:44. | |
Well, they know about animals here. It is the natural history museum. | :54:44. | :54:51. | |
Lots of dinosaurs in there, just like the Palace of Westminster. | :54:51. | :54:55. | |
Committees ideally are held in sterile, almost scientific | :54:55. | :54:59. | |
environments. They allow a Government and a Parliament to | :54:59. | :55:04. | |
assemble information without the who what of politics. Parliamentary | :55:04. | :55:10. | |
-- the ho-ha-politics. There are those which the MPs and the | :55:10. | :55:15. | |
parliamentarians draft the lays line by line and those which | :55:15. | :55:20. | |
scrutinise and interrogate public servants and ask them for their | :55:20. | :55:26. | |
opinions about proposed thoughts. These magnificent presses are used | :55:26. | :55:29. | |
to flatten biological specimens. Select committees do the same job. | :55:29. | :55:36. | |
There are 90 committees in all in the Houses of Parliament. They are | :55:36. | :55:38. | |
aseemabled according to the general election result. In the old days | :55:38. | :55:42. | |
the pwhips used to decide which MPs would sit on which committees. Now | :55:42. | :55:47. | |
they are voted for by the House. This has given MPs more kf about | :55:47. | :55:51. | |
the way they go about their -- confidence about the way they go | :55:51. | :55:56. | |
about their committee work. They are more beastly to people. | :55:56. | :56:01. | |
have destroyed a great British bank, cost the taxpayer �20 billion. How | :56:01. | :56:06. | |
would you summarise that deal? deal was a bad mistake. They are | :56:06. | :56:10. | |
rather dull N all the time I have reported Parliament, about 20 years, | :56:10. | :56:15. | |
I must have covered at least four of them. Bill committees are where | :56:15. | :56:19. | |
legislation is drafted line by line. It can allow MPs to show they have | :56:19. | :56:24. | |
a head for detail. On the whole, they are avoided. It | :56:24. | :56:29. | |
is select committees which are show time. This is when public figures | :56:29. | :56:31. | |
in British life are brought before Parliament to account for their | :56:31. | :56:37. | |
actions and to give their opinions. I would like to say one sentence, | :56:37. | :56:42. | |
this is the most humble day of my life. British public life is a bit | :56:42. | :56:47. | |
of a murky undergrowth. It is a jungle out there. Sometimes what | :56:47. | :56:57. | |
:56:57. | :56:59. | ||
Well, from the gore of parliamentary committees, that was | :56:59. | :57:02. | |
Quentin Letts, with his lowdown on committees of Parliament. Let's | :57:02. | :57:08. | |
come to you guys. What is your favourite committee? I sit on the | :57:08. | :57:11. | |
Joint Committee on Human Rights. We have the President, Sir Nicolas | :57:11. | :57:16. | |
Bratza, giving evidence tomorrow. It will be great. It was billed | :57:16. | :57:21. | |
that they would make Parliament more powerful, more accountable. | :57:21. | :57:27. | |
Are these powerful, these select committees of MPs? They have taken | :57:27. | :57:31. | |
it on because of the election and the strangeness of our politics, | :57:31. | :57:35. | |
given the coalition. Maybe it has been the issues and the fact you | :57:35. | :57:39. | |
have had Murdoch and others appearing in front of them. That | :57:39. | :57:42. | |
attracted a lot of attention. Do you think the questioning is | :57:43. | :57:47. | |
improving? They have always been forensic. My favourite committee is | :57:47. | :57:54. | |
the Welsh grand committee. It is unique, it is neither grand Orwell | :57:54. | :58:03. | |
sh, given that Cheryl Gillard is in control. What is interesting for | :58:03. | :58:08. | |
the House of Commons committees have evolved. When the Scottish | :58:08. | :58:17. | |
Parliament was set up they were given a central role. Do you sit in | :58:17. | :58:19. | |
these committee? No I am in the Westminster Parliament. They work | :58:19. | :58:23. | |
in a different way. Because they can change legislation, it becomes | :58:23. | :58:28. | |
a very powerful means and actually a very effective means of | :58:28. | :58:32. | |
governance. Perhaps if more of evolution to happen here in terms | :58:32. | :58:37. | |
of how committees efleckively influence the process. Which | :58:37. | :58:42. | |
committee would you like to be on? Foreign affairs. They get all the | :58:42. | :58:45. | |
nice trips. It will be Nick Clegg verses Harriet Harman because | :58:45. | :58:49. | |
William Hague will be away on that trip. This researcher will be shot | :58:49. | :58:53. |