13/03/2012 Daily Politics


13/03/2012

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Afternoon, folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics. Rebekah Brooks and

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her husband are arrested by police investigating phone hacking at News

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International. They are among six people arrested in the early hours

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of this morning. We will have the latest.

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The relationship is special after all. Last year they flip burgers in

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the Downing Street garden. Tonight they will go to a basketball game

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in her while, as swing state. -- in Ohio, the swing state.

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And top of their agenda will be Afghanistan, following the horrific

:01:17.:01:21.

killings by erode US soldier. Has the course of the war changed

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forever? Come fly with the Daily Politics,

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as we examine the arguments for and against airport extension.

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All that in the next hour and with us for the duration, Digby Jones,

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former director general of the CBI and a trade minister in Gordon

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Brown's Government but I promised I would not remind him of that. I

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think I just have! Before that, the breaking news that

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happened after you had read your morning papers. The former chief

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executive of News International, Rebekah Brooks, and her husband,

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the racing trainer and Prime Minister's friend, Charlie Brooks,

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have been arrested as part of the on-going investigation into firm

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:02:17.:02:17.

hacking. They are among his six -- of their own hacking. They are

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among six suspects that have been arrested. She has been arrested

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before. What is it this time? first time she was arrested was in

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July last year, when she was arrested on suspicion of

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involvement in phone hacking. This time it is on suspicion of

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conspiracy to pervert the course of justice. She has actually been

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arrested a third time previously also by police investigating

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allegations of payments to police officers. Third time for Rebekah

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Brooks. For the other people arrested today, this is the first

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time they have been arrested, so these are new names. We do not have

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the names of four of them at the moment but the other person is

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Charlie Brooks, the racecourse train and husband of Rebekah Brooks.

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He first entered the phone hacking saga last summer, during the select

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committee hearings which Rupert Murdoch appeared in front of, and

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which generated headlines. At that time there was a small story that

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appeared in the media, which reported that police had been

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called to an underground car park near the home of Rebekah Brooks and

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Charlie Brooks, where laptop belonging to him and some other

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items had been recovered from a litter bin. This is the first time

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that he entered the saga but this is the first time he has been

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arrested. That changes the nature of what is going on. I understand

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if you cannot answer this difficult question. There has been a lot of

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arrests, including Rebekah Brooks, three times. Can your sources give

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you any indication yet whether any of these arrests will be turned

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into charges? Frankly, if charges are to follow, and that is and if

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at the moment, then that is likely to happen in the next couple of

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months. 44 people have been arrested in total. The total number

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of arrests is actually higher because some of them, like Rebekah

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Brooks, have been arrested twice. We have seen the expansion of the

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inquiry, not just phone hacking but computer hacking and police bribery.

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And not just journalists and police officers. Recently we saw the

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arrest of a Ministry of Defence worker and a member of the armed

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forces. So the net is widening, if you like. We presume all of their

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innocence until proved otherwise and that is how our system works.

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Am I right in thinking that if you are charged with perverting the

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course of justice, then that is a much more serious charge than phone

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hacking? Yes, it is. That would incur a serious prison sentence. So

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would phone hacking, depending on the severity of the crime. It all

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has to go through the court and we will see. In theory these carry

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prison terms. We don't know what the substance of the suspicions are,

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if you like, as they relate to the conspiracy to pervert the course of

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justice. But that is a serious crime and a serious allegation.

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Thank you very much. Fascinating stuff. 44 arrests so far, some of

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them double of course, or triple in Rebecca -- Rebekah Brooks's case.

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Now, David Cameron has set off for Washington, lucky guy. So has John

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Pienaar. Great to see you with the white -- White House and the

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Jefferson monument, my favourite monument in all of Washington. Am I

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right in thinking that both David Cameron and Barack Obama must be

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thinking privately if not publicly how to get out of Afghanistan even

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quicker than we were planning? think they have been thinking about

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getting out as quickly as possible for quite a while. The military

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chiefs in Washington and in London have at times been worried about

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the invasions of their leaders and whether it squared with what the

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military want to achieve. Since the killings at the weekend, the

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arguments have fled in Washington. One of the Republican runners, mood

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Gingrich, has been talking about it being not possible to win. -- Newt

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Gingrich. Opinion polls in America reflect those in Britain, that

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people do not understand the mission in Afghanistan and simply

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want to get out. That adds up to political pressure. The two leaders

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will be stressing that it is all about completing a mission and

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handing over responsibility for policing and security in

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Afghanistan to the police there. The deadline of 2014 will not

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change, but the leaders will want the public to see that troops on

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their way back. It is clear that David Cameron would like to get out

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as soon as is respectable. Barack Obama is under more pressure

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because he has got an election this year. It would be popular if he was

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to announce some kind of speed up. Keep the 2014 deadline, but move

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more quickly to get the bulk of the soldiers out. Yes. I don't think

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they will speed up the timetable, but that will be apparent and it

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already is apparent as one of Barack Obama's wishes. Just as it

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:07:43.:07:43.

is in -- apparent that the public want to see that as well. From the

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right of Republican Party, through the Democrats, through the public,

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that is the wish. That will be coming through loud and clear, but

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neither David Cameron or Barack Obama wants to be accused of

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cutting and running. They will have to square that. The political

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pressure is pretty apparent. city that you are in has woken up

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to a joint article by the President and the Prime Minister in the

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Washington Post. Other than the usual flannel, if I can put it that

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way, is there something interesting in it? They are setting out their

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agenda. Afghanistan, the shared objectives. Iran, a huge story

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around the world. It is a big issue in Washington. Listening to a

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senior Democrat, the chair of the defence committee, the other night

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he was saying that the strike on Iran's nuclear facilities was very

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likely to happen. Maybe not in the coming days and weeks but it was

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certainly likely in months. America's involvement, however

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tangential, is very much being discussed. That will be discussed

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between David Cameron and Barack Obama. Syria, it goes without

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saying, is big on the agenda. And the economy, is big on everybody's

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agenda. The leaders will be shoulder to shoulder, to use the

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old cliche, because they are both putting pressure on eurozone

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leaders to act more quickly. That might upset Nicolas Sarkozy yet

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again but you can't please everyone. We can't because we are at the BBC,

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but am I right in thinking that some people are speculating that

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David Cameron would be quite happy to see the re-election of Barack

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Obama when he looks at the Republican field? Maybe so! I think

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Barack Obama is still in pole position to win the election. There

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is no guarantee of that and that is very clear as well. In swing states,

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the Republicans are doing really rather well. The approval of the

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Barack Obama economic policy is really quite poor. Something like

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60% of people are not convinced on the last opinion poll that I saw.

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But you would bet if you had to that Barack Obama will be there and

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you will but that Downing Street is making the same essential. -- you

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would bet. They will be lapping up the plush red carpet that is coming

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David Cameron's way. We are not just talking about a flight on Air

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Force One, which no other leader has done, but the basketball, two

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mates out for the evening. There will be several thousand people at

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the White House greeting David Cameron. There is a banquet of

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thousands of people including the actor Damian Lewis, big in the

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Homeland to the show and an old Etonian. All of that will be going

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on. -- television show. It is priceless for David Cameron, and it

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will do him no harm at all. And if it turns out that a Republican wins

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the presidential race, I don't think they will be breaking down in

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tears about it because after all they know the Republicans will be

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on the side of a Conservative Prime Minister who supports public

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spending cuts and is an ally on the military front. They can build

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those bridges if they have to but for now they will be enjoying this

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connection with Barack Obama. you. Enjoy the rest of your work

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there. For the legal it, I think he has

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:11:25.:11:26.

just given away the answer to our competition! -- for those that were

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listening. And with the White House in the background, built by slaves,

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with Scottish stonemasons and burnt by the British then rebuilt after

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1812. How would you categorise Anglo-American relations at the

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moment? Good. I don't see any major falling-out. I think that Barack

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Obama has spread his net more widely. There is a special

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relationship, other than intelligence sharing. We have

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always thought there is one, but the Americans have never really

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acted on it. When I was trade minister for the last Government,

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which by the way I am the only minister that never belonged to the

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party politics... I thought you might get that in! I did it for

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Britain and trade. When I was in America, Americans have never

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treated the British with the special relationship in terms of

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trade. I think John Pienaar's summary of it was excellent. There

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will be a subliminal thing of Let's Get More business and trade going

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:12:44.:12:45.

as the two a economies start falling. There is a systemic change

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taking place in America's concerns. When it was the defeat of the Nazis,

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then the Cold War, and Europe was the crucible of the world's great

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fascists, then Britain and America were side to side. The biggest

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concern that America has today is the rise of China, and Britain is

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almost entirely irrelevant in that respect. So they are looking to

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their West. Yes, and what is more, if Britain is fabulously engaged

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with this open economy, if it is going to make it then it will make

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it by going East itself, going to Ager. -- are going to Asia. The

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biggest investor in Britain is still America and vice versa so

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there is still something there. On the Afghanistan point, you have

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raised this before and I am glad that you do, what does victory look

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like? You can tell a grieving mother that he laid down his life

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in the Falkland Islands to three people. He lay down his life in

:13:51.:13:55.

Germany to free Europe from the Nazis. What do you say? At the end

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of the day, we know that there will be a deal with the Taliban. Hamid

:14:00.:14:04.

Karzai is already banning women walking around in public. Victory

:14:04.:14:07.

is not something that will look very pretty. The more young people

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that died, the more the public will ask what it is in a door. I also

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hope he brings this up. While he is walking down the red carpet,

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sitting in Air Force One, having the banquet, there is a British

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person in solitary confinement in a jail in America without charge. He

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is not able to defend himself. He has been set because of the British

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Government's kowtow to the extradition treaty. He is not the

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first and I think there will be many. I would like David Cameron to

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change the law on this in Britain and sorry, Barack Obama, that will

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make it tricky for your guide to come over before we extradite

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people. -- your guys. I was brought up that people are innocent until

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proven guilty, but the extradition treaty is the opposite. We will see.

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I would not hold your breath. I don't know why I am saying that,

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but I will. I don't know why we are bothering with this, but this is

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the quid! What we David Cameron have the privilege of travelling on

:15:15.:15:20.

a while he is on his visit to the USA. This is only for viewers that

:15:20.:15:30.
:15:30.:15:36.

tuned in after the John Pienaar At the end of the show, Lord Jones

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will give us the correct answer. There has been plenty of

:15:45.:15:47.

speculation about changes the Chancellor could make to tax rates,

:15:47.:15:55.

ahead of next week's Budget. So, what measures might he bring in?

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Plans to shelve the 50p tax rate for those earning more than

:15:58.:16:00.

�150,000 have also been discussed. Initial Treasury calculations

:16:00.:16:10.
:16:10.:16:11.

estimate the rate currently brings in around �3 billion a year.

:16:11.:16:15.

The Lib Dems have been pushing for a "mansion tax" on properties worth

:16:15.:16:18.

over �2 million, as a way of getting more tax revenue from the

:16:18.:16:22.

rich. There is speculation that this could be offered to ease Lib

:16:22.:16:29.

Dem concerns on scrapping the 50p tax rate.

:16:29.:16:33.

He is also looking at scrapping tax relief on pension contributions for

:16:33.:16:39.

top earners. The Lib Dems say that this could

:16:39.:16:47.

save �7 billion, and make the system fairer.

:16:47.:16:50.

These measures are being considered to help pay for raising the income

:16:50.:16:55.

threshold, before you start paying tax to �10,000. It was part of the

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coalition agreement. Earlier this year, Nick Clegg

:16:59.:17:09.
:17:09.:17:12.

called for this to brought in faster than planned. A report by

:17:12.:17:14.

Christian social policy charity Care this week criticised the

:17:14.:17:17.

threshold rise as an inefficient way to help poor families, and

:17:17.:17:21.

found that our current tax system means families in the UK with one

:17:21.:17:24.

working parent are some of the hardest hit amongst the top

:17:24.:17:33.

developed countries. Former Conservative Chancellor

:17:33.:17:43.
:17:43.:17:48.

Nigel Lawson chaired the report, and joins us now.

:17:48.:17:52.

Outstanding back, as you see the fiscal position the Chancellor is

:17:52.:17:58.

in, if it was you, what would you be minded to cut, if at all?

:17:58.:18:06.

should operate on both ends. I would do two things. I would bring

:18:06.:18:13.

the 50p tax rate down to 40%, which is where I've put it in 1988. You

:18:13.:18:18.

would lose no revenue at all in my judgment. Because, the Inland

:18:18.:18:27.

Revenue calculation is assuming no behavioural changes. If you factor

:18:27.:18:31.

in behavioural changes, it wouldn't cost you a penny. That is my

:18:31.:18:38.

expense. When I did cut it to 40% in 1988, we got more money from the

:18:38.:18:45.

rich rather than less money. The other end of the scale. Care. They

:18:45.:18:50.

are on to a very good point. There is a solution. Not to raise the

:18:50.:18:56.

threshold, that is inefficient, they are right. But introduce

:18:56.:19:00.

transferable allowances. In other words, the wife who gives up

:19:00.:19:04.

working in order to have children and he wants to look after children,

:19:04.:19:09.

should not lose her renounce, that should be transferred for the time

:19:09.:19:13.

being to her husband so they get the full benefit. I suggested that

:19:13.:19:21.

in mind 1985 -- by 1985 Budget speech and brought out a green

:19:21.:19:27.

paper. But I could not get Margaret Thatcher to agree to it. She felt,

:19:27.:19:34.

somehow, that women who were staying at home, lacked gumption

:19:34.:19:37.

and get up and go. She identified very strongly with the woman who

:19:37.:19:44.

went out to work. Like herself. Very often, the woman who is

:19:44.:19:47.

bringing up young children, maybe working much harder than her

:19:47.:19:54.

husband. And she should not be discriminated against. That is

:19:54.:20:01.

where the poverty is. Where there is only one earner, in a two child

:20:01.:20:07.

family. And I would do those two things, and get the money which has

:20:07.:20:17.
:20:17.:20:18.

been squirrelled away, which is not nearly as important.

:20:18.:20:23.

Sticking with the thresholds. They have become quite an iconic policy

:20:23.:20:26.

for the coalition. The Liberal Democrats who think they are

:20:26.:20:30.

pushing for it, and quite a few Tories like the idea of taking

:20:30.:20:37.

people out of tax, it has become a litmus test for this coalition.

:20:37.:20:42.

It is a question, am sure something will be done. It is a question of

:20:42.:20:52.

how much you do. When I started off, by taking a lot of people out of

:20:52.:20:55.

tax and raising the threshold this did actually, but subsequently and

:20:56.:21:01.

felt it was better to cut the rates of taxation. That has a more

:21:01.:21:07.

dynamic effect, than acting on the threshold. The one thing I would

:21:07.:21:12.

like to say, and a lot of businesses say this. If someone on

:21:12.:21:16.

the minimum wage could pay no tax, that would encourage a lot of

:21:16.:21:20.

people to say, it is not worth being on the dole, it is worth

:21:20.:21:26.

working. How you achieve that, which is your argument, the one

:21:26.:21:35.

thing about the single mum at home, it's his her contribution to the

:21:35.:21:44.

economy, providing a stable environment for a young person.

:21:44.:21:48.

There is a lot and the press about this. It is a bigger contribution

:21:48.:21:52.

to society. There is a strong social argument for this change,

:21:52.:21:59.

yes. Your argument, the argument of the charity, is that, although what

:21:59.:22:04.

they're doing will take low earners out of tax altogether, it's not

:22:04.:22:10.

just them who benefit. The bulk of the cost goes to middle and us who

:22:10.:22:14.

find their first �10,000... As sometimes wonder, is that the

:22:14.:22:19.

unspoken intention of a policy, a way of putting money into the

:22:19.:22:24.

pockets of middle income? I do not think the Lib Dems have really

:22:24.:22:32.

understand what they are talking about. Badenoch think they -- I

:22:32.:22:37.

think there is another reason for having lower taxes, rather than

:22:37.:22:43.

people taking out -- taking people out of tax altogether. There is

:22:43.:22:49.

always a danger, if you take large numbers of people out of tax, then

:22:49.:22:57.

they will feel that all they can ever actively lobby and press for

:22:57.:23:02.

his higher benefits. And they don't have to pay. So I think, if you

:23:03.:23:09.

want an educated political debate, it is better not to do this but cut

:23:09.:23:19.
:23:19.:23:25.

tax right across the border. These are straitened times. -- the board.

:23:25.:23:29.

The government is limited in what it can do now. This particular

:23:29.:23:33.

proposal has so much going for it and I am glad this charity, Care,

:23:33.:23:38.

has brought out is well written and well argued report at this

:23:38.:23:43.

particular time. The Chancellor's big challenge

:23:43.:23:46.

isn't just to make tax changes which will be regarded as fair in

:23:46.:23:50.

these times, but to get some growth back into the economy. What would

:23:50.:23:55.

you do? I would deregulate. There has been some deregulation but

:23:56.:24:00.

there is far too much regulation. Much more rules and regulations,

:24:00.:24:07.

which hamper British business. Some of it comes from the European Union,

:24:08.:24:13.

which is a nuisance. Even so, you can interpret that the way some of

:24:13.:24:18.

our continental friends interpret it, rather loosely. There is a lot

:24:18.:24:22.

which is our own regulation which you can get rid of. Give me an

:24:22.:24:30.

example? That is the important thing to do. You get businessmen

:24:30.:24:35.

complaining all the time about the amount of regulation areas. I think

:24:35.:24:38.

also, incidentally, there is another change on the tax front I

:24:38.:24:45.

would like to see. I'd like George Osborne at least to focus on it. I

:24:45.:24:50.

am very concerned about the existing system of corporate

:24:50.:24:56.

taxation as it affects banks'. Because, they get tax relief if

:24:56.:25:01.

they finance themselves from a loan capital. If they finance themselves

:25:01.:25:05.

from equity, they do not. As a result, they have far too much

:25:05.:25:11.

borrowed money and not a big enough equity base. I think we really need

:25:11.:25:18.

to address that. They get the tax relief on interest but not on the

:25:18.:25:28.
:25:28.:25:28.

dividends they pay. Where are you on the 50p top rate? It has become

:25:28.:25:32.

symbolic in these difficult times. The Chancellor keeps saying we're

:25:32.:25:36.

in it together. What would you do for growth? I would put the

:25:37.:25:42.

political argument Ford, what Britain has to do, we have to

:25:42.:25:47.

increase the amount of money we raise. The politics is in direct

:25:47.:25:52.

conflict. 50p does not raise the money. There are lots of other

:25:52.:25:56.

things were you could but you have to when the politics. There is no

:25:56.:25:59.

energy going into the Liberal Democrats or Tories to win the

:25:59.:26:04.

politics. They're quite prepared to let the politics when. That really

:26:04.:26:09.

worries me. We will end up with lots of ways people can avoid it.

:26:09.:26:13.

One thing I would do for growth more than anything, I would abolish

:26:13.:26:17.

national insurance had visions for employers for people who employed

:26:17.:26:25.

fewer than 25 people, for the next people they employ. If you employed

:26:25.:26:30.

had five and go to 26, he went pay contributions employing the next

:26:30.:26:36.

person. Why do we have a Jobs Tax? Every other tax in Britain taxes

:26:36.:26:42.

money in some form, capital, income. This tax taxes you if you just

:26:42.:26:49.

created job. It is barmy. It is �5.2 billion, so you can't just

:26:49.:26:55.

abolish it. May as says and then further about deregulation. The

:26:55.:27:00.

first point, you can stimulate activity by removing these shackles

:27:00.:27:05.

were it doesn't cost you any thing at all. There is another reason,

:27:05.:27:09.

internationally. We have always been less regulated than

:27:09.:27:15.

continental Europe. They had said they would follow us but they're

:27:15.:27:22.

going back again following the crisis in the euro. And the

:27:22.:27:28.

Americans now are into regulation in a heavy way. The banking bill.

:27:28.:27:35.

Other legislation. We have the opportunity to be the less

:27:35.:27:43.

regulated major economy, and attracted the -- because of it.

:27:43.:27:53.
:27:53.:28:00.

are right, that is at no cost. We will see what the Chancellor

:28:00.:28:05.

says in the Budget on 21st March, live here on BBC Two. A week

:28:05.:28:10.

tomorrow. The Royal College of GPs has said it is willing to work

:28:10.:28:13.

again with the government on helping to implement the changes to

:28:13.:28:17.

the NHS in England. The body had been omitted from talks with

:28:17.:28:19.

government, after declaring its opposition to the NHS Bill last

:28:20.:28:23.

month. Dr Clare Gerada, who heads the college, has now written to the

:28:23.:28:27.

Prime Minister, saying she wants to help find a "way forward". Dr

:28:27.:28:32.

Gerada appeared on this programme last month. Here's what she had to

:28:32.:28:41.

say then. I represent 44,000 general

:28:41.:28:45.

practitioners of which over 90% when we surveyed them recently

:28:45.:28:51.

wanted me to ask for withdrawal of the bill. Against a background of

:28:51.:28:56.

1.5 years of consultation, three surveys, five executive councils, a

:28:56.:29:00.

national conference, endless consultation. I can categorically

:29:00.:29:07.

tell you my members do not want this bill. Some of the parks of the

:29:07.:29:12.

Bill of good. Bidding GPs in control of money, but impatience

:29:12.:29:17.

first. In its totality, the Bill is a best, it is flawed, the Bill will

:29:17.:29:22.

not achieve what you and Andrew Lansley is setting out to achieve.

:29:22.:29:26.

Dr Clare Gerada speaking to me last month. The NHS Bill is going to be

:29:26.:29:30.

under discussion in both Houses of Parliament today. Let's go over to

:29:30.:29:36.

Central Lobby now, and join Carole Walker.

:29:36.:29:44.

preoccupying the House of Lords and house of Commons. It is continuing

:29:44.:29:47.

its somewhat tortuous process through the House of Lords. In the

:29:47.:29:52.

Commons this afternoon, we are going to have an opposition day

:29:52.:29:55.

debate with they the same even at this late stage, the government

:29:55.:30:02.

should stop the bill in its current form. Diane Abbott speaks on health

:30:02.:30:10.

for Labour. And Lord Jones for the Lib Dems. We heard the Royal

:30:10.:30:15.

College of GPs, the head, vehemently opposed to these plans,

:30:15.:30:18.

saying it is time to sit down with the government and work on putting

:30:18.:30:26.

them into action. Shouldn't you be Her position has not altered and

:30:26.:30:34.

she believes that it is a bad bill. Some of the GPs are taking these

:30:34.:30:42.

roles. Some of them are, but the vast majority want the bill to be

:30:42.:30:47.

dropped. The point about Dr Gerada's position is that it has

:30:47.:30:52.

not altered. She is opposed to the bill in its current form. The Royal

:30:52.:30:55.

College would always have worked with the Government if it became

:30:55.:31:01.

law, and in that sense nothing has changed. Do think there is a change

:31:01.:31:06.

of position because that after the acceptance, the weeks and months of

:31:06.:31:10.

wrangling, this bill will become law in pounds less than a week? I

:31:10.:31:17.

think it is a watershed. It is very difficult to explain to people how

:31:17.:31:21.

this bill has changed, especially in the Lords over the last few

:31:21.:31:26.

weeks, on things like competition, regulation of foundation trust,

:31:26.:31:29.

regulation of private income, things like that. I think that

:31:29.:31:34.

realisation is beginning to become true to members of the Royal

:31:34.:31:39.

College of GPs and other Royal Colleges, I hope. I think we are in

:31:39.:31:43.

the position that the bill will get more acceptance outside now. I

:31:43.:31:47.

think at the end of the day it will go through. I think that is wishful

:31:47.:31:51.

thinking. My view is the same as the majority of the Lib Dem members.

:31:51.:31:57.

In its fundamentals, this bill has not changed. You don't think...

:31:57.:32:04.

how does she know what the Lib Dem members think? They passed a motion

:32:04.:32:08.

agreeing that great progress had been made in House of Lords. The

:32:08.:32:11.

only line they took out of the motion was one are saying to give

:32:12.:32:14.

it a third reading and that is because they did not know enough

:32:14.:32:19.

about the bill as a whole. That is a very their position for a stock

:32:19.:32:29.
:32:29.:32:32.

that was the key line to take out. -- that is a very unfair position.

:32:32.:32:38.

That was the key line to take out. If they have been allowed to vote

:32:38.:32:41.

against the bill, they would have. They were allowed to vote for the

:32:41.:32:44.

motion that they wanted, which is the one that accepted the progress

:32:44.:32:48.

that had been made. That is why Nick Clegg had to use an air-raid

:32:48.:32:54.

shelter. If this bill does go through, as many people expect,

:32:54.:32:59.

what a future Labour Government overturn it? Oh, yes. Andy Burnham

:32:59.:33:04.

has said clearly on a number of occasions that if this bill goes

:33:04.:33:07.

through, when we are in Government we will overturn it and pick the

:33:07.:33:15.

worst -- on pick the worst of the damage. Even though we are prepared

:33:15.:33:19.

to make the best of it, there is a consensus that it will be damaging

:33:19.:33:29.
:33:29.:33:32.

and it will cause recommendation. It may -- they are hoping to

:33:32.:33:36.

persuade members of your party to stop this bill. Do you think there

:33:36.:33:40.

is any prospect of that happening now? It will go through. The

:33:40.:33:44.

extraordinary thing about Labour is that they have now performed a

:33:44.:33:49.

somersault, basically. They used to be pro choice and that competition

:33:49.:33:53.

had a limited place in the NHS. They had to 2006 Act that opened

:33:53.:33:58.

the door to price competition, which we are now regulating more

:33:58.:34:02.

effectively. It is extraordinary that they are doing this and many

:34:02.:34:10.

members will be unhappy if they appealed -- try and repeal this and

:34:10.:34:15.

later. The 2006 Act did not mention competition. We still believe that

:34:15.:34:19.

the private sector has a role to play and we certainly believe in

:34:19.:34:23.

choice but this is the wrong bill at the wrong time. We believe it is

:34:23.:34:26.

not too late for the Government to drop it. They really got themselves

:34:26.:34:31.

in a twist last week. They voted against the 49% limit, so they

:34:31.:34:37.

voted to open it. That shows the confusion within the Labour Party.

:34:37.:34:42.

OK, thank you very much. There is still a great deal to discuss on

:34:42.:34:46.

this bill. It does now look as though it is on course to become a

:34:46.:34:53.

law fairly shortly, but in the Commons this afternoon Labour will

:34:53.:34:57.

be saying that it should be dropped. Goodbye from Westminster.

:34:57.:35:01.

Thank you. Last week was brutal in Afghanistan and as we were saying

:35:01.:35:05.

it should feature high on the agenda in discussions between

:35:05.:35:09.

Barack Obama and David Cameron. Both are under pressure following

:35:09.:35:19.
:35:19.:35:22.

recent terrible events to increase the pace of withdrawal. Yesterday,

:35:22.:35:32.
:35:32.:35:32.

there were questions about the killing by the rogue US soldier.

:35:32.:35:35.

Does the Minister accept that there is a growing feeling in this

:35:35.:35:40.

country, no doubt and United States as well but certainly in Britain,

:35:40.:35:44.

that this war cannot be one? This is a war when people no longer

:35:44.:35:49.

accept the official line. Our security depends on our military

:35:49.:35:53.

continuing to be in Afghanistan. Barack Obama and the Prime Minister

:35:53.:35:58.

are meeting this week. Would it not be wise for them to accept that

:35:58.:36:03.

there is this feeling, this strong feeling, that this war has gone on

:36:03.:36:09.

now for over 10 years, that it cannot be won? We are on the right

:36:09.:36:12.

course. We have the right security strategy, but I think what he is

:36:12.:36:17.

getting at, and this opinion is widely held, that what we need to

:36:17.:36:22.

find is a political solution to the future of Afghanistan. Although

:36:22.:36:24.

progress on this has been disappointingly slow, there are now

:36:25.:36:30.

some signs of encouragement. I believe that there is a realistic

:36:30.:36:33.

prospect that the political process will be under way within the

:36:33.:36:37.

timescale that I am talking about. The idea that we can start

:36:37.:36:44.

challenging the plan to withdraw early worries me a great deal.

:36:44.:36:48.

Because soldiers need certainty. They need that certainty for their

:36:48.:36:53.

offices to plan and for soldiers to get used to it. It will be

:36:53.:36:56.

increasingly challenging for the soldiers over the next two years as

:36:56.:37:01.

we go towards withdrawing from combat operations. Can I ask the

:37:01.:37:05.

Minister whether he agrees with that assessment? We have got to

:37:05.:37:08.

support our soldiers are utterly and completely and the plan is set

:37:08.:37:12.

and must remain set now. The best thing we can do is for the

:37:12.:37:18.

international community now have to appoint an international mediator

:37:18.:37:22.

with international backing, to frame the international strategy

:37:22.:37:26.

internally and regionally, which is so desperately needed. If we do not

:37:26.:37:33.

stop working on it now, every day will show we can chances of leaving

:37:33.:37:38.

Afghanistan. -- start working on it. This is an isolated incident. There

:37:38.:37:42.

will be some calling for urgent withdrawal, but can I stress this

:37:42.:37:46.

is not just about security? It is also about governance and I hope

:37:47.:37:56.

that will be discussed at the summit into cargo. -- in Chicago.

:37:56.:38:00.

Tobias Ellwood, you saw him on the take and now he is live in the

:38:00.:38:04.

flesh. He is a former captain in the army and we are also joined by

:38:04.:38:09.

John Hemming, Liberal Democrat MP. John Hemming, if you were in charge

:38:09.:38:14.

of our Afghan policy now, what would you do? I would be looking

:38:14.:38:17.

for a earlier withdrawal. The problem is the dynamic of the

:38:17.:38:22.

situation is about the occupation, the presence of forces from outside

:38:22.:38:26.

Afghanistan. In an a symmetric conflict, when one side is powerful

:38:26.:38:31.

and the other relatively weak, it is a motions that drives things. If

:38:31.:38:36.

we are looking for real peace, which is the political solution,

:38:36.:38:40.

then maintaining the forces is not working towards that. Can you give

:38:40.:38:44.

us an idea of what you mean by an early withdrawal? I understand that

:38:44.:38:48.

the final combat troops will be gone by the end of 2014 and the

:38:48.:38:52.

draw down will begin before then. We always have to be concerned

:38:52.:38:56.

about the future safety of our troops and I will always take

:38:56.:38:59.

advice from the military about how quickly and then to be they can

:38:59.:39:08.

withdraw. I voted to withdraw some years ago now. -- and how safely

:39:08.:39:12.

they can withdraw. What we are doing is very cruel for the troops.

:39:12.:39:19.

If we gave them a military objective, they could achieve

:39:19.:39:22.

anything we set them, but a political objective is not

:39:22.:39:27.

something they can achieve. They will come out anyway, and whether

:39:27.:39:31.

we have got something that looks like victory or not. We are still

:39:31.:39:37.

coming up. The case for early withdrawal would be where you leave

:39:37.:39:41.

Afghanistan and where things would go in the near future? We don't

:39:41.:39:44.

want to leave an unstable Afghanistan and we don't want

:39:44.:39:51.

another civil law. -- civil war. We did not start training the Afghans

:39:51.:39:56.

properly until 2008. And only now are they starting to take over at

:39:56.:40:01.

the locations that they need to hold to provide that security.

:40:01.:40:04.

Underneath that a brother of security, what has not happened is

:40:04.:40:11.

improvements to governance. In the same way as happened in the 1840

:40:11.:40:16.

and the early 20th century, Afghanistan was never properly run.

:40:16.:40:20.

We needed divergence of governance so that Afghanistan is properly run,

:40:20.:40:28.

rather than it is the -- this knee- jerk reaction that we need to get

:40:28.:40:32.

out which will leave possible civil war further down the line. We have

:40:32.:40:36.

spent all this blood and treasure already. If we get out too soon, we

:40:36.:40:40.

will leave the Afghans not ready to take over, so we need to stay, do

:40:40.:40:47.

we? You are ignoring an important point that Tobias Ellwood is making.

:40:47.:40:50.

He is one of the few politicians that understands tribal than

:40:50.:40:55.

foreigners. We are imposing a Western model on Afghanistan which

:40:55.:40:59.

cannot work. There is a power structure based on tribes and we

:40:59.:41:03.

are imposing a Western model on that. So it does not matter how

:41:03.:41:09.

long we stay? Tobias is right. In terms of resolve in the political

:41:09.:41:12.

side, there needs to be something that recognises the power

:41:12.:41:22.
:41:22.:41:24.

structures that exist. We are driving a 1000 years of political

:41:25.:41:30.

structures in the UK it over 10 years, which is also a mistake.

:41:30.:41:35.

Lots of people watching this would say that the imposition of a

:41:35.:41:40.

Western-style on to Afghanistan is wrong. Therefore to get it devolved

:41:40.:41:44.

down into tried to get the corruption out, to somehow ensure

:41:44.:41:48.

that the Taliban do not come out of the caves in 2014 and start a civil

:41:48.:41:52.

war, whatever we do, everybody would say that we are not going to

:41:52.:41:58.

pull that off between 2012 and 2014. This is cultural change. Either you

:41:58.:42:02.

are going to be in for an incredibly long haul, which we all

:42:02.:42:08.

know won't happen, but what is so magical about 2014? Firstly, we are

:42:08.:42:16.

seeing progress. That -- let's not deny what is happening. We are

:42:16.:42:20.

taking charge of the security of the country. This is not matched

:42:20.:42:24.

with improvements in governance and Reconstruction and Development.

:42:24.:42:29.

This country is rich in minerals and so forth but the economic plan

:42:29.:42:33.

is not there. As we focus on draw down, we need to press forward to

:42:34.:42:41.

encourage better forms of governance. To give a brief example,

:42:41.:42:48.

Hamid Karzai gets to a point every headteacher in Afghanistan, which

:42:48.:42:52.

is far too centralised. Everybody is appointed by the President. This

:42:52.:42:56.

sort of reform needs to be focused on. He has just banned women

:42:57.:43:00.

walking around Kabul on their own without a male consort. We know

:43:00.:43:04.

that is so that you can go down the road to the Taliban and say that he

:43:04.:43:11.

is trying to meet them somewhere. If I was a soldier from any country

:43:11.:43:15.

where life was being threatened every day, I know they are paid to

:43:15.:43:18.

go in harm's way, but at least they have got to think things are being

:43:18.:43:23.

changed. We are running out of time but I want to ask you this.

:43:23.:43:27.

Regardless of the substance of your argument, do you get a sense that

:43:27.:43:32.

you are pushing at an open door because of what has happened?

:43:32.:43:37.

difficulty is, one of the eternal problems with any military conflict,

:43:37.:43:41.

we have to be primarily concerned about our security and the security

:43:41.:43:45.

of our armed forces. It is difficult to say that what we need

:43:45.:43:48.

to do is pull out given the sacrifice is that people have made.

:43:48.:43:52.

But it is worse to have more sacrifices because we are making

:43:52.:43:56.

the difficult decision to put out now. Are you pushing at an open

:43:56.:43:59.

door? It is difficult to say because the Government needs to

:43:59.:44:03.

work with native. If you don't know it is better not to answer the

:44:03.:44:09.

question. Thank you. We will see what is decided by the President

:44:09.:44:12.

and the Prime Minister. It is bound to be a key part of any final

:44:12.:44:18.

statement after the British visit Later this month, we'll get an idea

:44:18.:44:21.

of the government's vision for the future of Britain's airports. The

:44:21.:44:24.

aviation industry say that expansion will help the economy,

:44:24.:44:27.

while environmental groups fret that the green agenda is being

:44:27.:44:35.

chucked out in favour of growth. Here's Adam.

:44:35.:44:41.

Ladies and gentlemen, we have begun a descent into Westminster

:44:41.:44:51.
:44:51.:44:52.

Right now, politicians have got aeroplanes on the brain. The

:44:52.:44:56.

coalition agreement between the Tories and Liberal Democrats rules

:44:56.:45:00.

out any new runways at Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted. Last year,

:45:00.:45:04.

the government started a consultation on the future flight

:45:04.:45:08.

plan in the UK. We will hear their initial thought this month, paving

:45:08.:45:13.

the way for a full-blown aviation strategy to be published next year.

:45:13.:45:18.

What are some of the options people have been talking about?

:45:18.:45:21.

The departure to London Heathrow has been cancelled because the

:45:21.:45:26.

airport is full. The owners of the UK's biggest airports so that means

:45:26.:45:32.

they are stuck in a holding pattern. We are short of capacity, which

:45:32.:45:36.

means we are more vulnerable to delays and congestion, and short of

:45:36.:45:41.

capacity to put in on new routes, such as to China. We announced one

:45:41.:45:45.

new route recently but our competitors are lapsing several new

:45:45.:45:48.

routes, they're getting further ahead of us in terms of trade links

:45:48.:45:52.

with growing parts of the world. Which suggests either another

:45:53.:45:57.

runway or permission to operate even more flights.

:45:57.:46:02.

Check in for the first flight to Boris Ireland will open in 13 years.

:46:02.:46:06.

To realise the dream of the mayor of London for a new airport in the

:46:06.:46:11.

Thames estuary, a lot of obstacles have to be overcome, from the risk

:46:11.:46:14.

posed by birds, to the aviation routes of other countries, and the

:46:15.:46:21.

enormous cost. For those obstacles can digest, some are more difficult.

:46:21.:46:25.

What we need is for the government to say this is something they can

:46:25.:46:31.

look at seriously. The 11:45am flight to Manchester,

:46:31.:46:35.

Bristol and Birmingham is now ready for boarding. The UK's regional

:46:35.:46:39.

airports are keen to grab a bigger slice of the growing demand for

:46:39.:46:44.

flights. But all this horrifies green groups.

:46:44.:46:49.

Passengers could always forget the plane and get the train instead.

:46:49.:46:54.

you do not need to fly to Paris, you can take the train. If you can

:46:54.:46:57.

take a train to Manchester or Edinburgh, let us look at those

:46:57.:47:03.

options, sensible runway capacity so you're not having to chock-a-

:47:03.:47:08.

block few runways with those short hop flights and you can have proper

:47:08.:47:12.

flight space for long-haul flights. So there aren't easy answers when

:47:12.:47:17.

it comes to aviation policy. Passengers boarding at Westminster

:47:17.:47:23.

International Airport, prepare for some turbulence. Adam Fleming.

:47:23.:47:27.

We've still got our guest of the day, Digby Jones, with us. To talk

:47:27.:47:31.

more about the future for airport expansion in the UK, we are now

:47:31.:47:34.

joined by the Chair of the Energy and Climate Change Select Committee,

:47:34.:47:42.

Tim Yeo, also Conservative MP for South Suffolk.

:47:42.:47:46.

Can we clarify, is it your understanding of that the

:47:46.:47:49.

Conservatives, and the coalition government, they are still opposed

:47:49.:47:54.

to a third runway at Heathrow? his coalition policy, and happen to

:47:54.:48:00.

think it is wrong. What would you do? Britain needs a modern

:48:00.:48:04.

transport infrastructure which means more airport capacity. But it

:48:04.:48:08.

kick in China we have no direct links and we will miss out.

:48:08.:48:14.

Provincial cities. We now at last have cover for changing the

:48:14.:48:19.

coalition position. The EU has applied a new emissions limit. That

:48:19.:48:25.

means building another runway does not actually increase emissions

:48:25.:48:32.

because they're already subject to the EU restrictions. So to build a

:48:32.:48:37.

brand new airport? He is more practical to build a third runway.

:48:37.:48:41.

The cost otherwise would be enormous. It is also in the wrong

:48:41.:48:47.

place. People do not live in the Thames estuary, they tend to live

:48:47.:48:50.

west and north. The journey for most passengers would get worse if

:48:50.:48:56.

we had a Thames estuary airport. People say we are in danger of

:48:56.:49:00.

losing out. They say it aviation happens to be an industry Britain

:49:00.:49:07.

is a world leader. Heathrow was the world's premier airport. Great for

:49:07.:49:12.

Britain. They now say business is going to Frankfurt, Amsterdam,

:49:12.:49:21.

Paris. That is so right. We are in danger of ceasing to be a hub for

:49:21.:49:27.

the developed world. If you look at a brute, about 60% of the

:49:27.:49:37.
:49:37.:49:43.

passengers on a route come from somewhere else - route. You have to

:49:43.:49:51.

feed it through a hub. Frankfurt has 16 destination cities in China.

:49:52.:49:57.

It brings it in everywhere else from Europe. We're trying to be

:49:57.:50:02.

point to point and it doesn't work. If you're going into the Thames

:50:02.:50:07.

estuary, more people belong to the virus pp than to the political

:50:07.:50:17.
:50:17.:50:19.

parties in Britain! -- RSPB. It all comes back to a third runway at

:50:19.:50:23.

Heathrow. If you had the Thames estuary and closed Heathrow, help

:50:23.:50:30.

any politician can defend the loss of jobs? It has to be a third

:50:30.:50:37.

runway. The case for a third runway, it reinforces the hub nature. I

:50:37.:50:42.

interviewed unexamined a couple of weeks ago. He got the sustained

:50:42.:50:46.

light aeroplane from Aberdeen to Heathrow. It was full of people

:50:46.:50:51.

going on to the Far East, Singapore. You won't get many direct flights

:50:51.:50:56.

from Aberdeen to Singapore. They needed Heathrow. They were saying,

:50:56.:51:01.

you can fly from Aberdeen to Frankfurt, we will go there.

:51:01.:51:06.

Heathrow remains potentially a world-class airport. It Sadiq is

:51:06.:51:10.

not that at the moment, some of the tunnels are out of date. It needs

:51:10.:51:15.

extra capacity as well. There is an interesting environmental argument

:51:15.:51:21.

in favour of runways, less stacking. Emissions for aircraft are

:51:21.:51:25.

particularly high when they are waiting to land. You could make a

:51:25.:51:28.

positive green case for saying reducing the congestion at Heathrow

:51:29.:51:34.

in the air for people arriving, and on the ground, taking off, to cut

:51:34.:51:42.

emissions. You have two problems. You have a Conservative Transport

:51:42.:51:46.

Secretary whose constituency is on the flight path into Heathrow. And

:51:46.:51:52.

you have a coalition partner who as I understand, their policy isn't

:51:52.:51:57.

just no runway in Heathrow, they are saying no runways in the south

:51:57.:52:02.

east. Justine Greening has made a good start as Transport Secretary,

:52:02.:52:07.

I have to say. I am genuinely encouraged by it. She might like to

:52:07.:52:11.

pass the decision about the runway to somebody else who does not have

:52:11.:52:16.

the same constituency problem. My constituency is in East Anglia. I

:52:16.:52:22.

was concerned when I thought Stansted was going to expand.

:52:22.:52:26.

Liberal Democrats, they're wrong about this. Britain, if it is going

:52:26.:52:30.

to be a world-class economy, it needs a world-class transport

:52:31.:52:36.

infrastructure, which means high- speed trains, and more capacity. We

:52:36.:52:44.

are falling behind badly on transport issues. We have to be

:52:44.:52:49.

brave with the coalition partners and say, we want Britain to be in

:52:49.:52:56.

the Premier League economically, that means more airport capacity.

:52:56.:53:00.

love -- I'd love the politicians to say to a penance, where you see

:53:00.:53:07.

this country in 2025. High-speed rail, excellent. Secondly, at the

:53:07.:53:14.

moment, you would seek a vibrant Paris and Netherlands taking the

:53:14.:53:24.
:53:24.:53:25.

growth away. You end up with a second Tear Britain. That is awful.

:53:26.:53:35.

-- tier. A few days ago, Apple announced

:53:36.:53:39.

more than 25 billion apps have been downloaded from its app store. And

:53:39.:53:43.

everyone it seems wants to get in on the craze. The Prime Minister

:53:43.:53:50.

already has an iPad. We know about his Angry Birds obsession. Not

:53:50.:53:52.

content with that, he's had a customised tablet computer produced,

:53:52.:54:02.
:54:02.:54:06.

costing �20,000. So what special apps might he have on it?

:54:06.:54:10.

It's thought the PM will be able to access all kinds of stats, with a

:54:10.:54:14.

data app: Polling trends, the markets, NHS waiting times, and

:54:14.:54:19.

crime and unemployment figures will all be available. We're not sure if

:54:19.:54:23.

he'll have a nuclear option on the app, keeping him in control of the

:54:23.:54:32.

country's nuclear arsenal. But we do expect him to have a personal

:54:32.:54:35.

trainer app for days when we can't go jogging in St James' Park.

:54:35.:54:43.

Something to keep him motivated and fit.

:54:43.:54:47.

We know the PM likes to catch up on episodes of The Killing and

:54:47.:54:57.

Desperate Housewives. So a film downloads app is sure to feature.

:54:57.:55:00.

We're joined now by Torsten Stauch, an app designer, from the company

:55:00.:55:08.

Red C. What to do think the Prime Minister

:55:08.:55:17.

will have? Apart from those absolute necessity is! I pick it is

:55:17.:55:22.

obvious, what we are seeing with the promise to getting his own app,

:55:22.:55:29.

is the fact there is a shift in the world from games, everyone talks

:55:29.:55:36.

about Angry Birds, to be in productivity tools. The taxpayers

:55:36.:55:39.

alliance might be say this is a waste of money, I couldn't disagree

:55:39.:55:44.

more. The more time he spends on his own app, the better it is for

:55:44.:55:48.

the taxpayer. I have no doubt any iPad usable low productivity

:55:48.:55:53.

increases when they are using a tablet. There has been a suggestion

:55:53.:56:01.

maybe MPs should all be given an iPad or tablet, and although they

:56:01.:56:09.

might cost �400 each, we think, why should we spend money on this?

:56:09.:56:14.

Would it make them more efficient? Somerset it would save money.

:56:14.:56:19.

course it would save money. You are saving on paper. There is good

:56:19.:56:24.

reason to do that at least. You are able to use it in many more

:56:24.:56:28.

different places. Sitting in a meeting and using the laptop screen

:56:28.:56:33.

is not the way you want to work. To have a discreet tablet is better,

:56:33.:56:40.

you can have information to hand way you are not behind your desk.

:56:40.:56:47.

What sort of app would make your life easier? Seriously, I would

:56:47.:56:52.

definitely would welcome a locked of the stuff I could read on trains

:56:52.:56:58.

and in the back of cars were, at the moment, for by printed it out?

:56:58.:57:04.

Whereas, if it was on a tablet, that would help me. Good for the

:57:04.:57:10.

environment. The less serious one, definitely, the in-depth analysis

:57:10.:57:15.

of why Leicester Tigers is the best rugby team in Britain, and why God

:57:15.:57:22.

is alive and well and keeping goal for Aston Villa! You created an app

:57:22.:57:31.

for George Galloway? He is well up on understanding how we is

:57:31.:57:34.

communicating -- he is communicating with his followers.

:57:34.:57:39.

If you can get into their pocket, they can be watching a video of

:57:39.:57:43.

your latest campaign or speech while standing in the queue at a

:57:43.:57:48.

supermarket, that makes sense. They might not be doing that if you're

:57:48.:57:55.

there -- by their computer. Doesn't it killed the art of

:57:55.:57:58.

conversation? There is an argument for that. Having my own children, I

:57:58.:58:03.

try not to get them into technology too quickly. That doesn't mean you

:58:03.:58:10.

can't use technology well. It must be managed. It learns -- it means

:58:10.:58:13.

you learn things and gives you something to talk about.

:58:13.:58:18.

children, we are training children to build the Rhone apps. Previously,

:58:18.:58:24.

the ICT curriculum was dead boring. Turning the children away from

:58:24.:58:33.

digital or media careers. This can interest them.

:58:33.:58:36.

Time for the quiz. What will David Cameron have the privilege of

:58:36.:58:41.

travelling on whilst he's on his official visit to the USA.

:58:41.:58:51.
:58:51.:58:51.

Force One. The first leader from a foreign country ever to be on it.

:58:51.:58:55.

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