Browse content similar to 20/04/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Afternoon, folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics. | :00:42. | :00:46. | |
It's bad news for the Prime Minister, but even worse for Nick | :00:46. | :00:49. | |
Clegg! Tory backbenchers are warning David Cameron that there | :00:49. | :00:53. | |
will be a rebellion "off the scale", if he presses ahead with the Deputy | :00:53. | :00:56. | |
Prime Minister's pet project, House of Lords reform. Could this be the | :00:56. | :01:01. | |
row that breaks the coalition? Troublesome Lib Dem peer Matthew | :01:01. | :01:04. | |
Oakeshott joins us. And, as Theresa May endures that | :01:04. | :01:07. | |
ritual of British politics, the Home Secretary getting a thoroughly | :01:07. | :01:11. | |
good kicking, we ask where the Abu Qatada debacle leaves the Home | :01:11. | :01:18. | |
Secretary? And, it was billed as a decisive | :01:18. | :01:21. | |
moment in the UK's efforts to reform the European Court of Human | :01:21. | :01:26. | |
Rights. But, has the Brighton Declaration lived up to the hype? | :01:26. | :01:30. | |
Ken Clarke thinks so. The President of the Court, who's also British, | :01:30. | :01:33. | |
not so much. We'll ask Tory MEP Martin Callanan, | :01:33. | :01:36. | |
and former Lord Chancellor, Charlie Falconer. | :01:36. | :01:40. | |
And, it's an election frenzy on the Daily Politics today. We'll hear | :01:40. | :01:44. | |
what's happening in Wales. Meet the Uruguayan immigrant | :01:44. | :01:47. | |
standing as the BNP's candidate for London Mayor. | :01:47. | :01:50. | |
And, talk to a French socialist hoping to be elected as the member | :01:50. | :02:00. | |
:02:00. | :02:02. | ||
All that in the next cosmopolitan, sophisticated and truly | :02:02. | :02:10. | |
international hour of public service broadcasting. | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
And, alongside me throughout, Agnes Poirier, UK editor of French news | :02:13. | :02:18. | |
magazine, Marianne. And, rather less exotically, it has | :02:18. | :02:24. | |
to be said, Matt Chorley from the Independent on Sunday. | :02:24. | :02:28. | |
Welcome. So, it's not a great morning for | :02:28. | :02:31. | |
anyone with Prime Minister in their title. For David Cameron, the | :02:31. | :02:34. | |
headlines about Theresa May and her troubled relationship with the | :02:34. | :02:38. | |
calendar are bad. The poll that puts Labour a whopping 13% ahead, | :02:38. | :02:44. | |
even worse. And that's before we get to his restive backbenchers, | :02:44. | :02:47. | |
who warned last night that they would not support plans for House | :02:47. | :02:53. | |
of Lords reform. That's where Nick Clegg's headaches begin. With his | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
party desperate for a victory on constitutional reform, to make them | :02:57. | :02:59. | |
feel better about this whole coalition business. | :02:59. | :03:02. | |
So, what's been going on in Westminster overnight? Our | :03:02. | :03:09. | |
political correspondent Carole Walker joins us. | :03:09. | :03:12. | |
4th 4th of the Prime Minister was not at this meeting of Tory | :03:12. | :03:16. | |
backbenchers. From all of the reports, they were in rebellious | :03:16. | :03:21. | |
mood? I think the word will certainly get back to David Cameron. | :03:21. | :03:27. | |
Tory MPs have had a testing time with rows over the pastry tax, | :03:27. | :03:33. | |
granny tax, the possible fuel strike. It seems like they seized | :03:33. | :03:38. | |
on this issue of House of Lords reform to say pretty strongly that | :03:38. | :03:44. | |
they will not put up with it. They feel this is a pet project of the | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
Liberal Democrat Deputy Prime Minister. They are concerned at the | :03:47. | :03:52. | |
idea of a largely elected House of Lords would lead to difficulties | :03:52. | :03:57. | |
and conflict between the two Houses of Parliament. They think any plan | :03:57. | :04:02. | |
to radically reduce the House of Lords will clog up the Houses of | :04:02. | :04:07. | |
Parliament for quite some time and dominate the headlines. Their | :04:07. | :04:10. | |
constituents will be wondering why they are preoccupied with the inner | :04:10. | :04:15. | |
workings of Parliament when they are more concerned about jobs and | :04:15. | :04:23. | |
the economy. So, it is pretty clear there is a huge amount of hostility. | :04:23. | :04:27. | |
There was some surprising guidance from Downing Street, saying those | :04:27. | :04:31. | |
who spoke out against reform were not representative of Tory | :04:31. | :04:37. | |
backbenchers. But there were over 40 who took this line. If they are | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
representative, what does Mr Cameron do? He is in a very | :04:41. | :04:48. | |
difficult position. Because, this issue of House of Lords reform, | :04:48. | :04:53. | |
part of the constitutional reform agenda was part of the price of the | :04:53. | :04:57. | |
Coalition for Nick Clegg. There is no doubt the Prime Minister will | :04:57. | :05:03. | |
have a huge problem in terms of his own party. I have spoken to MPs | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
from a number of different wings of the party and all of them are angry | :05:07. | :05:12. | |
about this on a number of different levels. The key one is this simply | :05:12. | :05:16. | |
do not feel this is the issue that the government should be focusing | :05:16. | :05:21. | |
on and driving through, with all of the battles that will involve, at | :05:21. | :05:27. | |
this current time. So he will have a difficult ride. Quite a few MPs | :05:27. | :05:32. | |
now say that, if it is going to go ahead and there will be reform of | :05:32. | :05:36. | |
the Lords, they should be a referendum. That is something on | :05:36. | :05:40. | |
which you could see rebellious Tory MPs finding common cause with | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
Labour of which could make it even more difficult to get any proposals | :05:44. | :05:50. | |
through. So, there could be trouble ahead. And, who better to ask about | :05:50. | :05:52. | |
it than troublesome Lib Dem peer Matthew Oakeshott. Alongside former | :05:52. | :06:02. | |
Labour Lord Chancellor, Charles Falconer. | :06:02. | :06:10. | |
The Conservative MPs are not up for this? Troublesome. Totally on | :06:10. | :06:16. | |
message. The coalition and Liberal Democrat message. About 40 of them | :06:17. | :06:22. | |
spoke against it. I can tell you plenty of gazetted MPs are in | :06:22. | :06:27. | |
favour. There have been some very good ones on the Joint Commission | :06:27. | :06:33. | |
reported on Monday. You think that this committee meeting of the 1922 | :06:33. | :06:38. | |
Committee last night, which every MP who spoke, except one, was | :06:38. | :06:45. | |
against proceeding with reform, as Nick Clegg once. But it doesn't | :06:45. | :06:52. | |
matter? I didn't say that. The important thing is Liberal Democrat | :06:52. | :06:57. | |
MPs are totally united in favour, it is coalition policy. Electing | :06:57. | :07:03. | |
the house of Lords was in all three major parties's manifestos, | :07:03. | :07:10. | |
including yours, Charlie. You made it quite clear you, of the party | :07:10. | :07:16. | |
was in favour of an elected House of Lords and getting rid of the | :07:16. | :07:21. | |
hereditary principle. Those policies were put to the country. | :07:21. | :07:28. | |
The Conservative manifesto, you keep saying this was in the | :07:28. | :07:32. | |
Conservative manifesto and coalition agreement. It isn't. The | :07:32. | :07:39. | |
Tory manifesto says we will work to build a consensus. To replace the | :07:39. | :07:48. | |
current House of Lords. It doesn't say we will reform, but we will | :07:48. | :07:57. | |
work to build a consensus. Clearly, there is no consensus. You have | :07:58. | :08:03. | |
consistently said the coalition agreement... The coalition | :08:03. | :08:07. | |
agreement simply says, we will establish a committee to bring | :08:07. | :08:15. | |
forward proposals. For a wholly or mainly elected upper chamber. | :08:15. | :08:22. | |
Bringing forward proposals. That commits nobody to anything. It does. | :08:22. | :08:27. | |
It is a clear understanding between the two parties that is what we | :08:27. | :08:32. | |
would propose. That is the deal. Your party could save the day, no | :08:32. | :08:38. | |
matter how disillusioned the Tories are, by voting with the Liberal | :08:38. | :08:42. | |
Democrats for a second elected chamber? We could and we would if | :08:42. | :08:45. | |
they were worthwhile proposals. But they're saying everything is | :08:45. | :08:49. | |
wonderful in the current arrangement, except the Lords are | :08:49. | :08:55. | |
not elected. So let us change, but keep anything else, including the | :08:55. | :09:00. | |
primacy of the Commons. A nonsensical idea. Once we are | :09:00. | :09:05. | |
elected, we will assert ourselves against the Commons and there will | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
be gridlock. You can't have an inferior second chamber which is | :09:09. | :09:16. | |
also elected. Get back to the drawing board. A back to the | :09:16. | :09:24. | |
drawing-board. An excuse for never doing anything. Let me say, 800 of | :09:24. | :09:29. | |
us, very complacent dinosaurs, what will you do about the hereditary | :09:29. | :09:36. | |
principle? I don't believe and I see no reason why an elected House | :09:36. | :09:43. | |
of Lords as all three parties are in favour of, should mean there | :09:43. | :09:48. | |
should be a change in the power balance. At the moment, the Commons | :09:48. | :09:55. | |
actually is now had more power by using this financial privilege. | :09:55. | :10:00. | |
We're having some movement away. I think we should stick to the | :10:00. | :10:06. | |
balance there has been. You reject the unanimous conclusion that had | :10:06. | :10:13. | |
Lords Bill, Commons, Tories, Liberal Democrats, off the existing | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
conventions go up the window. Excuse me, I was on that committee, | :10:17. | :10:22. | |
it did not say that. It did not accept, and those of us in favour | :10:22. | :10:28. | |
of reform, supported that on the basis that was a separate issue. We | :10:28. | :10:32. | |
did not say on that committee you had to change the powers before | :10:32. | :10:39. | |
changing the composition. I was there. I was actually there, I was | :10:39. | :10:48. | |
on that committee. You were not. You obviously never read the report. | :10:48. | :10:53. | |
Can I remind you again of the words of the Conservative manifesto. We | :10:53. | :10:57. | |
will work to build a consensus. It doesn't sound like you have done it. | :10:57. | :11:01. | |
He don't have to have unanimity in the Conservative Party to have a | :11:01. | :11:07. | |
decision. You are relying on the manifesto which has been shot to | :11:07. | :11:12. | |
pieces. Also, you are very unrepresentative of most of the | :11:12. | :11:20. | |
Labour Party, the Labour leadership in the Commons, you are a dinosaur. | :11:20. | :11:24. | |
I think you are getting a phone call from your leader! I think what | :11:24. | :11:30. | |
my party once, is a sensible Bill. And yours is total rubbish. What he | :11:30. | :11:35. | |
wants I am sure is a form and a democratic House of Lords as well | :11:35. | :11:40. | |
as Commons. We won't get it while dinosaurs are blocking the way. | :11:40. | :11:50. | |
:11:50. | :11:50. | ||
hit is an issue which nobody cares about, according to the polls. | :11:50. | :11:54. | |
you ask people what are the most important issues facing Britain, | :11:54. | :12:01. | |
the reform of the Lords gets 0%. How all this play about? If the | :12:01. | :12:07. | |
entire summer is dominated by this, it will play out very badly. It's | :12:07. | :12:14. | |
the opponents who say this is mad to make this a number one priority. | :12:14. | :12:19. | |
Nick Clegg wants it. His party wants it more than he does. For he | :12:19. | :12:25. | |
wants it. After losing the alternative vote referendum. Number | :12:25. | :12:35. | |
:12:35. | :12:35. | ||
10 is still saying the promised it is still committed. -- the Prime | :12:35. | :12:41. | |
Minister. How do you let the second chamber in France? It is elected to | :12:41. | :12:48. | |
start with. They got rid of Lords during the Revolution! Which is an | :12:48. | :12:55. | |
easy way to go about it. There is an intellectual case for it. I am | :12:55. | :13:01. | |
amazed you say 0% of people are concerned. It is very important. | :13:01. | :13:05. | |
you ask every opinion poll, it says most people are in favour of | :13:05. | :13:11. | |
collecting it. It is not top of their list. The only reason it will | :13:11. | :13:14. | |
clog up Holland visit the people who are against it spend time time- | :13:14. | :13:24. | |
:13:24. | :13:26. | ||
wasting. People want current paces macro to have a long period before | :13:26. | :13:34. | |
change. If there is a referendum, it looks a good idea... Let me be | :13:35. | :13:39. | |
clear. You are speaking for the party that now wants to give us a | :13:39. | :13:42. | |
referendum on an issue no one cares about. But the party which wouldn't | :13:42. | :13:49. | |
give us a referendum... In relation to the Lords, we always said there | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
would be a referendum. In relation to Lisbon, and cut remember the | :13:54. | :14:02. | |
precise timing, it went away for some reason -- I can't remember. | :14:02. | :14:10. | |
You support an elected, your party supports an elected chamber. Stop | :14:11. | :14:16. | |
the politics and support him. upping macro, it is a very bad | :14:16. | :14:25. | |
proposal which would be bad for the country -- no. I'll be asking the | :14:25. | :14:30. | |
Deputy Prime Minister about this issue, when he joins me on the | :14:30. | :14:38. | |
Sunday Politics. On BBC One, this Now, the papers this morning don't | :14:38. | :14:41. | |
make great reading for the Government. Do we detect a theme | :14:41. | :14:45. | |
here? Many are splashing on the news that the radical cleric Abu | :14:45. | :14:48. | |
Qatada could be released on bail within weeks because of the | :14:48. | :14:52. | |
confusion surrounding his deportation. It's a further blow to | :14:52. | :14:55. | |
the Home Secretary Theresa May, and her department. Mrs May insists | :14:55. | :15:02. | |
that Abu Qatada's lawyers have his deportation. But a spokesman | :15:02. | :15:03. | |
for the European Court says the appeal, lodged on Tuesday evening, | :15:03. | :15:13. | |
:15:13. | :15:16. | ||
was "just in time". The judge here who approved Abu Qatada's arrest at | :15:16. | :15:19. | |
the start of the week, Mr Justice Mitting, says that "if it is | :15:19. | :15:22. | |
obvious after two or three weeks that deportation is not imminent" | :15:22. | :15:28. | |
then he would reconsider bail for Abu Qatada. | :15:28. | :15:30. | |
Meanwhile the Justice Secretary Ken Clarke hailed a new declaration, | :15:30. | :15:40. | |
agreed in Brighton, to reform the European Court. Mr Clarke says | :15:40. | :15:43. | |
there will be more "subsidiarity" and a "margin of appreciation" - | :15:43. | :15:49. | |
that means more decisions made by national courts. However, the | :15:50. | :15:52. | |
President of the European Court, a Brit called Nicholas Bratza, said | :15:52. | :15:55. | |
he was "uncomfortable with the idea that governments can in some way | :15:55. | :15:59. | |
dictate to the court how its case law should evolve or how it should | :15:59. | :16:09. | |
:16:09. | :16:14. | ||
carry out the judicial functions Not a lot of enthusiasm there from | :16:14. | :16:19. | |
the President. Charles Falconer is still with us and we're joined from | :16:19. | :16:22. | |
the home of the European Court, Strasbourg, by Martin Callanan the | :16:22. | :16:24. | |
Tory MEP who heads the right of centre European Parliament grouping | :16:24. | :16:34. | |
of which the Conservative Party are members. Welcome to both of you. | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
Charlie Falconer, let me come to you first. You are a lawyer as well | :16:38. | :16:43. | |
as a former politician and former Lord Chancellor. Did Theresa may | :16:43. | :16:47. | |
get the old days right or not? think she might have got it wrong. | :16:47. | :16:54. | |
-- did she get the date right? The convention says you have to make | :16:54. | :16:57. | |
the appeal within three months and the guidance documents say it | :16:57. | :17:02. | |
includes the day of the judgment but other cases say it does not | :17:02. | :17:05. | |
include the day of the judgment. It is very confusing, but if you are | :17:05. | :17:09. | |
confused by that, the right thing is to wait until the last possible | :17:09. | :17:13. | |
date and then it said you were going to deport. Instead she took a | :17:13. | :17:19. | |
risk. I don't know what advice she had got. I read in the newspapers | :17:19. | :17:24. | |
she was evasive about saying what advice she got. I do not know who | :17:24. | :17:28. | |
took the risk. The right thing to do if your stated stance was to say | :17:28. | :17:32. | |
you would only move to deport him once the time for appeal had gone, | :17:32. | :17:38. | |
then you should wait for that time for appeal unequivocally. And get | :17:38. | :17:41. | |
clarity from Strasbourg as to what they considered was the right thing. | :17:41. | :17:44. | |
She should have waited until the end of the next day and there would | :17:45. | :17:49. | |
have been no argument one way or another. The problem she has ended | :17:49. | :17:56. | |
up in is that somebody, whether it was hurt or a lawyer, took a risk | :17:56. | :17:58. | |
that the view it ended on the Monday was right, and it has now | :17:59. | :18:02. | |
turned out to be wrong. The court has now said it was within time. | :18:02. | :18:08. | |
is a technical issue, but there are bigger symbolic issues. Let me go | :18:08. | :18:14. | |
to Martin. If Abu Qatada gets released on bail, is that curtains | :18:14. | :18:21. | |
for the Home Secretary? No, I don't think so. I think Theresa May is on | :18:21. | :18:24. | |
the side of the angels and is doing an excellent job. It is just the | :18:24. | :18:29. | |
angels are not sure what day it is. This argument about dates is | :18:30. | :18:32. | |
interpreted and reinterpreted by the court, and this is the problem | :18:32. | :18:36. | |
with it, it makes the law as they go along about what people ought to | :18:36. | :18:41. | |
save rather than what it does say. But going back to the principles, | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
this guy has been illegally in the country for 20 years and successive | :18:46. | :18:49. | |
Home Secretaries have considered him a threat to national security | :18:49. | :18:53. | |
and he was labelled a terrorist sympathiser by a judge and he | :18:53. | :18:58. | |
detests what we stand for in the UK. Everybody wants rid of him. We know | :18:58. | :19:05. | |
that, but none of you can find a way of doing it. The problem is | :19:05. | :19:07. | |
that the European Court of Human Rights substituted judgment on | :19:07. | :19:12. | |
elected politicians in the UK and even in the UK courts and the UK | :19:12. | :19:19. | |
taxpayer is funding both sides of the case. We know that, and we have | :19:19. | :19:23. | |
heard it endlessly, politicians come on to this programme wringing | :19:23. | :19:28. | |
their hands about this all the time. Should the Home Secretary do what | :19:28. | :19:33. | |
the French and the Italians do and just put him on a plane to Jordan? | :19:33. | :19:38. | |
No, she can't. That would be contrary to the law and we abide by | :19:38. | :19:43. | |
the law in the UK and a thing that is correct. What we should do is | :19:43. | :19:45. | |
change the law and abnegate the European Convention of Human Rights, | :19:45. | :19:49. | |
withdraw from it and then it will be perfectly legal for Abu Qatada | :19:49. | :19:53. | |
to be deported. Kenneth Clarke says the Brighton agreement, which has | :19:53. | :19:57. | |
been unveiled this morning on the European Court, will make a big | :19:57. | :20:02. | |
difference to the way it works. The President of the court says it will | :20:02. | :20:08. | |
not change the way it -- we do our jobs. Who is right? Eyes suspect | :20:08. | :20:13. | |
the President of the court is right, because the job of interpreting it | :20:13. | :20:17. | |
lies with him and his fellow judges, most of whom are not even legally | :20:17. | :20:21. | |
qualified. Most of them are political appointees and they will | :20:21. | :20:24. | |
interpret the law as they see fit. That is what they have done all | :20:24. | :20:28. | |
along. It sounds like you do not trust your justice secretary on | :20:28. | :20:33. | |
this. I am suspicious of his motives, I have to say. I prefer | :20:33. | :20:38. | |
the interpretation of Tereza May. The point is, Charlie Falconer, can | :20:38. | :20:41. | |
you point to any of the clauses in the Brighton declaration that would | :20:41. | :20:46. | |
have made a difference to the Abu Qatada case? They are saying they | :20:46. | :20:51. | |
will streamline the process is. The subsidiarity staff won't add any | :20:51. | :20:56. | |
difference to the result -- the subsidiarity stuff. But they are | :20:56. | :20:59. | |
saying their procedural changes that will make it quicker and there | :20:59. | :21:03. | |
are complaints about what happened with Abu Qatada because some people | :21:03. | :21:09. | |
say he's ability to appeal means the process takes so long. It has | :21:09. | :21:14. | |
taken 10 years and everyone is exasperated about that. I am more | :21:14. | :21:18. | |
hopeful than your other guest that it will make a difference. I have | :21:18. | :21:22. | |
no idea what difference it will make. We have a situation in the UK | :21:22. | :21:26. | |
way you have a final court of appeal that will hear around 60 | :21:26. | :21:30. | |
cases per year. What you need the the European Court of Human Rights | :21:30. | :21:35. | |
is a coarse -- a court that he is a small matter cases, sets out the | :21:35. | :21:40. | |
principles, and decides things in a reasonable time. People are fed up | :21:40. | :21:43. | |
with any party's ability to sort this out. This man was allowed in | :21:43. | :21:47. | |
illegally under a Tory government, then in 2001 under the Labour | :21:47. | :21:51. | |
government for nine years, you fail to get progress in getting him out, | :21:51. | :21:56. | |
and now we have a Tory government back in and we are not quite sure | :21:56. | :21:59. | |
what day of the week it is. question about the timing is one | :21:59. | :22:05. | |
that could have risen in an English case. The problem is that the time | :22:05. | :22:09. | |
these things take. It is right to have a court out of the country | :22:09. | :22:13. | |
that is saying, regionally, for Europe, what is the standard of | :22:13. | :22:17. | |
human rights. That is a good thing and insures people are protected. | :22:17. | :22:22. | |
What is a bad thing is... Why can't they be protected by the British | :22:22. | :22:26. | |
Supreme Court which is nine of the best qualified judges in the world? | :22:26. | :22:29. | |
The Kozuka always have a government saying you can disagree -- because | :22:29. | :22:33. | |
you can always have a government that disagrees and says the courts | :22:33. | :22:39. | |
in Britain were wrong. You have to have something outside the UK. | :22:39. | :22:42. | |
United States doesn't. But they have judges who can strike down | :22:42. | :22:47. | |
legislation. So you have an independent protective in the US of | :22:47. | :22:53. | |
people's human rights. Why is this not an issue in France? I do not | :22:53. | :22:59. | |
know why in Britain we always blame Europe. Because we stick to the | :22:59. | :23:03. | |
rules and in France you just put them on a plane. Mr Sarkozy has | :23:03. | :23:10. | |
just done it. But we did not involve the European Court of Human | :23:10. | :23:13. | |
Rights on this. It might be down to the more authoritarian nature of | :23:13. | :23:18. | |
the French state, perhaps. And it is very difficult to get to the | :23:18. | :23:21. | |
European Court of Human Rights in France. The funding is more | :23:21. | :23:27. | |
difficult. We are a nation where we make access to the courts, | :23:27. | :23:31. | |
including the European Court, very easy would you are rich or poor. I | :23:31. | :23:35. | |
am not sure if it is like that in France. Frankly, the political | :23:35. | :23:41. | |
establishment do not know what to do. The reforms, most people think | :23:41. | :23:43. | |
they won't make much difference, and he says we should just leave. | :23:43. | :23:49. | |
David Cameron is not going to just leave and couldn't give a coalition | :23:49. | :23:53. | |
with the Liberal Democrats. It is a stalemate for the future. It is, | :23:53. | :23:56. | |
and a lot of legal process is complicated and people cannot | :23:56. | :24:00. | |
Follett. When you get down to a Monday or Tuesday, people can | :24:00. | :24:04. | |
follow that. People think if you have waited 10 years and you cannot | :24:04. | :24:08. | |
wait another day... Everyone agrees that we should get rid of him, so | :24:08. | :24:14. | |
why, do that? You want Britain to pull out of the European Court of | :24:14. | :24:19. | |
Human Rights altogether. Do you want us to have our own British | :24:19. | :24:23. | |
Bill of Rights? I think that is a matter Parliament can determine. | :24:23. | :24:29. | |
was asking you. What benefit accrues to the UK from our | :24:29. | :24:32. | |
membership of this court? I don't feel my human rights are under | :24:32. | :24:36. | |
threat. We are the country that had the Magna Carter, the British Bill | :24:36. | :24:41. | |
of Rights and by human rights are well protected. The idea not one to | :24:41. | :24:46. | |
be protected by judges from Belarus and the Ukraine. -- I do not want | :24:46. | :24:50. | |
to be protected. There are only two courses in the Magna Carter that | :24:50. | :24:54. | |
are still part of British law and a British Bill of Rights was at the | :24:54. | :24:57. | |
end of the 17th century. If you are so convinced this is the right way | :24:57. | :25:01. | |
to go, how come you have not convinced your prime minister? | :25:01. | :25:05. | |
think David Cameron probably does support that view. He doesn't | :25:05. | :25:09. | |
support the idea of full withdrawal from the European Court. Let's see | :25:09. | :25:13. | |
what is in the next Conservative manifesto. The problem is we are in | :25:14. | :25:17. | |
coalition with the Liberal Democrats to believe it is fine for | :25:17. | :25:23. | |
us to be dictated to by these various tribunals and courts. | :25:23. | :25:26. | |
doubt Abu Qatada will be here to read the next Conservative | :25:26. | :25:30. | |
manifesto. Probably! Thank you for joining us. We had trouble getting | :25:30. | :25:34. | |
you earlier, but it's good to see. Now, we're going election crazy on | :25:35. | :25:37. | |
the Daily Politics today. First up, France. It's the last day of | :25:38. | :25:40. | |
campaigning before voters go to the polls on Sunday in the French | :25:41. | :25:48. | |
presidential elections. Nicolas Sarkozy is in Nice and Francoise | :25:48. | :25:58. | |
:25:58. | :25:58. | ||
Hollande in Bordeaux making their final pleas for votes today. The | :25:58. | :26:02. | |
campaigning starts tonight, Saturday is quiet, and then they go | :26:02. | :26:05. | |
to the polls. Opinion polls show the two men are neck-and-neck, but | :26:05. | :26:13. | |
Socialist candidate Mr Hollande is favourite to win a run-off vote. | :26:13. | :26:18. | |
Probably by quite a big majority if the opinion polls are right. Here's | :26:18. | :26:21. | |
Susana Mendonsa with all you'll need to know your onions on the | :26:21. | :26:24. | |
French election. I should warn you that her report contains some flash | :26:24. | :26:32. | |
The French Presidential Election is upon us and there's everything to | :26:32. | :26:42. | |
:26:42. | :26:43. | ||
play for for the incumbent Nicolas Sarkozy. He'll need the help | :26:43. | :26:46. | |
because this is a very tight race, and if the voters decide that it's | :26:46. | :26:49. | |
"au revoir", he'd become the first French president not to be re- | :26:49. | :26:57. | |
elected for a second term in more The French elect their president in | :26:57. | :27:01. | |
a two stage process, starting with stage one this weekend. To be | :27:01. | :27:04. | |
elected on the first round alone, one of the ten candidates would | :27:04. | :27:08. | |
have to win an absolute majority at the polls on Sunday. If none of | :27:08. | :27:11. | |
them achieve that, then the the top two candidates will face each other | :27:11. | :27:20. | |
The front runners are Conservative Sarkozy, and Socialist Francoise | :27:20. | :27:27. | |
Hollande who's promising change. Polls this week put him at 29%, | :27:27. | :27:32. | |
edging every so slightly ahead of Sarkozy who's on 28%. The rest of | :27:32. | :27:36. | |
the candidates veer from the far left to the far right and will most | :27:36. | :27:39. | |
likely be eliminated this weekend, but where their supporters go could | :27:39. | :27:45. | |
be the tipping point, with Hollande favourite to win the second round. | :27:45. | :27:48. | |
And this is the man whose votes he'll hope to pick up, the Left | :27:48. | :27:58. | |
:27:58. | :27:59. | ||
Front's Jean-Luc Melenchon. While Sarkozy will hope that far right's | :27:59. | :28:02. | |
National Front leader Le Pen's supporters will vote for him. But | :28:02. | :28:08. | |
that's forced both men to appeal to the extremes. One of Melenchon's | :28:08. | :28:10. | |
more controversial ideas is to confiscate all income over 360,000 | :28:10. | :28:17. | |
euros a year. Holland followed that up with a pledge to tax income | :28:18. | :28:20. | |
above one million euros at 75%. Sarkozy has sought to claw back | :28:21. | :28:23. | |
right wing voters with policies like pulling out of Europe's | :28:23. | :28:26. | |
borderless zone unless there's a crackdown on illegal immigration. | :28:26. | :28:29. | |
And after the shootings in Toulouse by the son of Algerian immigrants, | :28:29. | :28:39. | |
:28:39. | :28:40. | ||
he's proposed tougher laws against But it's on the economy that who | :28:40. | :28:44. | |
wins in France affects us here in Britain. Sarkozy's support for a | :28:44. | :28:46. | |
financial transaction tax on the banks is looked upon with suspicion. | :28:46. | :28:49. | |
And Hollande's tax and spending approach might force Germany to | :28:49. | :28:59. | |
:28:59. | :29:00. | ||
look towards Britain. I am glad I gave a warning about the flash | :29:00. | :29:06. | |
photography. And I'm delighted to say we are joined by the Socialist | :29:06. | :29:08. | |
candidate for Nord Europe - the constituency for ex-pat French | :29:08. | :29:15. | |
nationals which includes those living in the UK, Axelle Lemaire. | :29:15. | :29:19. | |
The vast majority of French people living in the UK are in the London | :29:19. | :29:24. | |
area. A lot of them work in the city. As a Socialist candidate, is | :29:24. | :29:28. | |
it quite hard to campaign for these people's boats as so many of them | :29:28. | :29:34. | |
have come to London to escape people like Francoise Hollande. | :29:34. | :29:38. | |
I've don't think they'd come to escape him. I think they came to | :29:38. | :29:44. | |
London and were attracted by offers in the job market. I think people | :29:44. | :29:49. | |
working in the city, what they want, they want a strong economy for | :29:49. | :29:54. | |
France and long-term policies and a stable economy likely to attract | :29:54. | :29:56. | |
foreign investments. This is something Nicolas Sarkozy has not | :29:57. | :30:06. | |
:30:07. | :30:07. | ||
The French people I know who live in London escaped France because he | :30:07. | :30:12. | |
believed there were not the kind of jobs they could get in London, and | :30:12. | :30:20. | |
because taxes were too high. Well, Nicolas Sarkozy has actually | :30:20. | :30:25. | |
created 45 new taxes in five years. The public debt has doubled in 10 | :30:25. | :30:32. | |
years. You are not going to cut these taxes. That depends for whom. | :30:32. | :30:38. | |
Mr Hollande wants to introduce progressive taxation. So there | :30:38. | :30:41. | |
would probably be more French people paying taxes, but the edit | :30:41. | :30:46. | |
is to make it progressive. That means the wealthiest have to pay. | :30:46. | :30:52. | |
It is already quite progressive. Mr Hollande is suggesting if you earn | :30:52. | :30:58. | |
over one million euros, your marginal rate will become 75%. How | :30:58. | :31:04. | |
much money would that raised? think he is doing that for the | :31:04. | :31:09. | |
symbolic aspect of it. And because this would concern 3,000 | :31:09. | :31:17. | |
individuals. The important tax rate to look at is the 45%, which would | :31:17. | :31:24. | |
concern earnings between 150,000.1000000 Euros euros. Why is | :31:24. | :31:28. | |
it symbolically important? Because taxation is very unfair in France | :31:28. | :31:36. | |
and people are fed up with the richest paying less taxes, than | :31:36. | :31:43. | |
bloke and middle-class citizens. Mr Hollande were to implement the | :31:43. | :31:48. | |
centre by % tax, you would need to book far ahead on the Eurostar | :31:48. | :31:54. | |
because it will be packed with millionaires. I am not sure. The | :31:54. | :32:00. | |
reason I came to Britain in 1975 was because of the new President | :32:00. | :32:09. | |
then. I love Britain too much now to go back. Don't be so sure about | :32:09. | :32:18. | |
the reason why. In a country surrounded by other countries, | :32:19. | :32:23. | |
France has borders with anyone and a tunnel would Britain, why won't | :32:23. | :32:32. | |
they leave? They will be taxed anyway. Nicolas Sarkozy proposed it | :32:32. | :32:37. | |
because he proposes everything that Mr Hollande is proposing as a | :32:37. | :32:44. | |
desperate measure. He says they will be taxed anywhere. If Mr | :32:44. | :32:48. | |
Hollande wins, will Jean Luc Melenchon who wants to confiscate | :32:48. | :32:55. | |
all money above 350,000 euros, a real socialist policy, where he get | :32:55. | :33:04. | |
a job in the government? I can't say, I don't know how Mr Hollande | :33:04. | :33:08. | |
will form his government. Jean Luc Melenchon has already announced he | :33:08. | :33:15. | |
does not want to be in government. That being said, it doesn't mean Mr | :33:15. | :33:19. | |
Hollande should not take into account the messages sent by the | :33:19. | :33:23. | |
people who would vote for Jean Luc Melenchon, as he would do for any | :33:23. | :33:29. | |
other candidate. If he is elected, he will be elected by the French | :33:29. | :33:33. | |
people and he will have to rule in the national interest. What lessons | :33:33. | :33:40. | |
are there for British politicians? An interesting campaign. | :33:40. | :33:48. | |
Interesting issues. In addition to the two main candidates, the others | :33:48. | :33:54. | |
have been interesting as well. obvious parallel is the Labour and | :33:54. | :34:02. | |
Tories worried about losing votes to the UKIP party. And the respect | :34:02. | :34:12. | |
:34:12. | :34:17. | ||
party. We know David Cameron would want Nicolas Sarkozy to win but he | :34:17. | :34:23. | |
does a -- not know if it will happen. There is a love-hate | :34:23. | :34:29. | |
relationship. Of the two, he would prefer to have Nicolas Sarkozy. | :34:29. | :34:35. | |
is not so clear that it is in the interest of Ed Miliband for Mr | :34:35. | :34:39. | |
Hollande to win. In a sense it would be a victory for the left but | :34:39. | :34:44. | |
if it quickly unravels, as it did with Francois Mitterrand's early on, | :34:44. | :34:54. | |
:34:54. | :34:55. | ||
that is not good news. If the policies start panning out, rich | :34:55. | :35:01. | |
people start leaving, tax revenues go down, then that will play out | :35:01. | :35:07. | |
badly. If your man wins, you could win as well. London voted last time | :35:07. | :35:13. | |
roughly the way France voted. So, you could be representing London | :35:13. | :35:19. | |
and the other areas in the French Assembly. If he does win, who do | :35:19. | :35:23. | |
you think will bring him to his senses more quickly? The bond | :35:23. | :35:33. | |
:35:33. | :35:36. | ||
markets or Angela Merkel? people, hopefully. I was very | :35:37. | :35:44. | |
interested to read in the Economist today, this idea from the leaders, | :35:44. | :35:54. | |
that the addition -- that leaders have to work together to promote | :35:54. | :36:01. | |
growth. That is the message Mr Hollande would send to Angela | :36:01. | :36:05. | |
Merkel and hopefully they would agree on a fat the markets have to | :36:05. | :36:10. | |
be stabilised, to promote growth. Good luck with your dealings with | :36:10. | :36:14. | |
Angela Merkel. Am I right in thinking the Nicolas | :36:14. | :36:18. | |
Sarkozy campaign which at one stage but it clique around the events in | :36:18. | :36:24. | |
Toulouse looked like it was having a head of steam. But that has | :36:24. | :36:31. | |
petered out. What happened is all candidates have the same space on | :36:31. | :36:38. | |
radio and TV. Nicolas Sarkozy is very good at fireworks. But he is | :36:38. | :36:44. | |
not there anymore. Therefore, he is plummeting in the polls. So I am | :36:44. | :36:51. | |
right. If you are right! The Now, over the course of the | :36:51. | :36:53. | |
next couple of weeks we'll be interviewing all the candidates | :36:53. | :36:57. | |
vying to become Mayor of London. Yesterday we spoke to the Green | :36:57. | :37:00. | |
candidate Jenny Jones. Today, we speak to the BNP candidate. He's | :37:00. | :37:02. | |
called Carlos Cortiglia. He's originally from Uruguay. We'll | :37:02. | :37:06. | |
speak to him in a moment but, first, let's take a look at what he's | :37:06. | :37:09. | |
offering. On transport: he wants to look at | :37:09. | :37:14. | |
the possibility of abolishing the congestion charge. | :37:14. | :37:17. | |
He's also offering free weekend travel on the Underground and | :37:17. | :37:19. | |
trains. On crime: he wants to introduce | :37:19. | :37:23. | |
minimum five-year prison sentences for knife crime. | :37:24. | :37:27. | |
And he also opposes the use of water cannons on streets to cope | :37:27. | :37:29. | |
with rioting. He's also promising there'll be no | :37:29. | :37:35. | |
amnesties for illegal immigrants in the capital. | :37:35. | :37:45. | |
:37:45. | :37:46. | ||
Carlos Cortiglia joins us now. Welcome to the programme. In 2010, | :37:46. | :37:50. | |
the BNP campaigned against, the immigrant invasion of our country. | :37:50. | :37:56. | |
And you are part of that invasion? Precisely. The reason is, the BNP | :37:56. | :38:01. | |
has to change. It wants to be a British National Party, has to stop | :38:01. | :38:07. | |
talking about 1930s ideas, which are ridiculous, and I invite anyone | :38:07. | :38:13. | |
who is a nationalist to watch the Battle of Britain, and to watch a | :38:13. | :38:16. | |
very good series done by Thames Television about the history of the | :38:16. | :38:26. | |
war. And to understand what British nationalism has to be about. It's | :38:26. | :38:31. | |
his not a continuity of that, but to start thinking about what is in | :38:31. | :38:35. | |
the best interests of Britain. are you saying you are not anti- | :38:35. | :38:41. | |
immigrant any more? We talk about illegal immigration, that is the | :38:41. | :38:46. | |
issue. People who are legally entitled, like me, to be in this | :38:46. | :38:52. | |
country, are not the issue. But the BNP national conceit is to offer | :38:52. | :38:59. | |
generous grants to those of foreign descent resident here, not illegal, | :38:59. | :39:04. | |
who wished to leave permanently. they want to. How much will it take | :39:04. | :39:08. | |
to send you back to Uruguay? A bid people want to make that choice, | :39:08. | :39:13. | |
they can. There is no argument that people who are legally entitled to | :39:13. | :39:19. | |
be here have the right to be a participant. So if we had a whip- | :39:19. | :39:24. | |
round to entice you to go back to Uruguay? You would have to raise a | :39:24. | :39:29. | |
lot of money. I established by family in the UK. My three children | :39:29. | :39:33. | |
are born in London. I have been here for almost a quarter of a | :39:33. | :39:38. | |
century. The reason I came here is still valid. I love this country | :39:38. | :39:46. | |
and I want to represent it and put an end to this chauvinism from | :39:46. | :39:51. | |
1930s which is not the solution for Britain's problems. The fact is, | :39:51. | :40:01. | |
:40:01. | :40:03. | ||
immigration is your party's reason for being. People will find it | :40:03. | :40:06. | |
strange that someone who is an immigrant, who has done well in | :40:06. | :40:10. | |
this country, who is part of the reason why people think immigration | :40:10. | :40:13. | |
overall has been rather a good thing for Britain, particularly for | :40:13. | :40:19. | |
London, is representing a party that would send you back if it had | :40:19. | :40:24. | |
half a chance. The problem in this country, it is a situation all | :40:24. | :40:27. | |
political parties including the Conservatives, Liberal Democrats | :40:27. | :40:34. | |
and Tories agree on, -- Labour, it is not a question of stopping | :40:34. | :40:44. | |
people coming here. Countries, when they get people who can offer | :40:44. | :40:49. | |
something, if you have a country like the UK that has no control | :40:49. | :40:54. | |
over its borders because, basically, immigration policy has been | :40:54. | :40:59. | |
influenced by being a member of the European Union, we have elected | :40:59. | :41:05. | |
authorities, they should be running out immigration policy, not Europe. | :41:06. | :41:10. | |
But your party, there is a sense that you are a front man for this | :41:10. | :41:15. | |
party. Because you represented party, you don't say it yourself, | :41:15. | :41:21. | |
that would stop all new immigration. That is not at all. For that is BNP | :41:21. | :41:27. | |
policy, you would reject all asylum seekers. The issue of asylum | :41:27. | :41:34. | |
seekers is about illegal immigrants and asylum seekers. We have a | :41:34. | :41:38. | |
border a authority that just confessed they are not able to | :41:38. | :41:42. | |
manage the number of people coming in. That is different from saying | :41:42. | :41:49. | |
no more immigration. If we had that Lord today, you'll would not be | :41:49. | :41:53. | |
allowed in -- you would not be allowed in. I would say that is not | :41:53. | :41:59. | |
a policy of the BNP. It is their national policy. These islands off | :41:59. | :42:05. | |
the coast of Argentina. What you call them? The Falkland Islands. | :42:05. | :42:11. | |
Not the Malvinas Islands? In 1982, there was a dictator in Argentina. | :42:11. | :42:17. | |
Argentina was going down the drain. Who did you support? I supported | :42:17. | :42:22. | |
Britain. So this story that you tried to sign up for the | :42:22. | :42:30. | |
Argentinian forces? That is not true? It is not true, I was working | :42:30. | :42:35. | |
for the state education system, a teacher of mathematics that ear. I | :42:35. | :42:40. | |
did not move away from Montevideo. I was studying the English language | :42:40. | :42:44. | |
at the American Institute. I was studying journalism and I had | :42:44. | :42:51. | |
nothing to do with it. Why is such a well educated person representing | :42:51. | :42:56. | |
be BNP in this election? Because I do believe there is a need for | :42:56. | :43:06. | |
:43:06. | :43:06. | ||
change. Why did you join UKIP? would say to you, David Cameron | :43:06. | :43:13. | |
said the BNP is a far-right party. I said jokingly, we are in the | :43:13. | :43:20. | |
middle. The point is... If you listen to the French election, | :43:20. | :43:25. | |
marine Le Pen, and Jean Luc Melenchon on the far left and right, | :43:25. | :43:31. | |
they're saying quite a lot of the same thing. If no, they're not. | :43:31. | :43:35. | |
Public services must be public services and one of our policies is | :43:35. | :43:39. | |
to stop the automation of the underground and maintain the | :43:39. | :43:45. | |
principle we need to protect public services. That is not a far right | :43:45. | :43:49. | |
cried but a socialist principle. To protect public services and workers. | :43:50. | :43:54. | |
The whatever you stand for isn't working, you are 1% in the polls. | :43:54. | :44:00. | |
would say to you, the issue of percentages is not the issue. In | :44:00. | :44:03. | |
British politics, it is participation. This is the first | :44:03. | :44:09. | |
time I have had a chance to talk about politics. In all of the | :44:09. | :44:16. | |
debates and hustings, including those organised by the BBC, and no | :44:16. | :44:26. | |
:44:26. | :44:28. | ||
BNP is represented. We have run out of time. | :44:28. | :44:37. | |
Now, it's not just election time in London and France this spring. Oh | :44:37. | :44:39. | |
no, they'll be casting ballots in Scotland, across England and in | :44:39. | :44:43. | |
Wales too where there's good news and bad news for all four main | :44:43. | :44:46. | |
political parties. Labour's on the comeback trail, the Tories are on a | :44:46. | :44:50. | |
bit of a high, the Lib Dems have yet to face a major backlash as a | :44:50. | :44:52. | |
result of the Coalition in Westminster and Plaid Cymru made | :44:52. | :44:56. | |
gains at the local elections four years ago. So how might things pan | :44:56. | :45:02. | |
Thompson to Barry Island, home of Gavin and Stacey, to see who'll be | :45:02. | :45:12. | |
:45:12. | :45:20. | ||
making the political weather in Barry, in the Vale of Glamorgan, | :45:20. | :45:24. | |
home to Britain's hardiest holiday makers and to a certain TV sitcom. | :45:24. | :45:28. | |
If you're not from Wales, Barry probably means Gavin and Stacey, | :45:28. | :45:32. | |
but politically this place as more about it than that, because what | :45:32. | :45:35. | |
happens in next month's local elections could give us a big clue | :45:35. | :45:39. | |
to the fate of the four main political parties in Wales and | :45:39. | :45:45. | |
beyond. So, what's occurring? At the moment there is a slim Tory | :45:45. | :45:48. | |
majority on the council and the one Westminster seat here as well. | :45:48. | :45:52. | |
Labour would like to take them both, and in general, Wales has been | :45:52. | :45:55. | |
something of a success story for the David Cameron team. How have | :45:55. | :46:01. | |
they done it and can they keep the area around Barry Blue? We have | :46:01. | :46:05. | |
broadened the base and branded ourselves as a Welsh party, at the | :46:05. | :46:09. | |
same time the other parties have moved to the left, so if you are a | :46:09. | :46:12. | |
centre right Botha in Wales, the only party is the Conservative | :46:12. | :46:17. | |
Party. But in Wales, lefties not necessarily a dirty word, and for | :46:17. | :46:20. | |
Plaid Cymru it is the key to building on the gains made in the | :46:20. | :46:25. | |
last set of local elections. We are to the left of Labour and that is a | :46:25. | :46:28. | |
message if it is bought in practical terms about the | :46:28. | :46:31. | |
difference it can make in the community can be positive, but we | :46:31. | :46:34. | |
do know that we face a challenge because when people are fearful, as | :46:35. | :46:38. | |
they are at the moment, the Labour Party says they have to vote Labour | :46:38. | :46:42. | |
to keep the Tories out and that is a message we have to counteract. | :46:42. | :46:46. | |
what about Labour? In the words of its former leader in Wales, the | :46:46. | :46:50. | |
party to go belting in the 2008 local elections. Since then there | :46:50. | :46:54. | |
has been a bit of a revival. But can Welsh Labour leader resurgence | :46:54. | :46:59. | |
of the party across the UK? There is a message in that we are less | :46:59. | :47:04. | |
associated with New Labour here. We have always been classic Labour, | :47:04. | :47:08. | |
not all Labour, but classic Labour as distinct from New Labour. I | :47:08. | :47:13. | |
think that has been a helpful message. If we can increase the | :47:13. | :47:15. | |
number of Labour-controlled authorities, in particular the big | :47:15. | :47:20. | |
ones like Cardiff, Swansea, Newport and Wrexham, that would be a major | :47:20. | :47:25. | |
advance and I think it would be a message for Labour, nationally. | :47:25. | :47:31. | |
Funnily enough, they are almost the main Welsh cities the Labour Dems - | :47:31. | :47:36. | |
- the Lib Dems are running. So can they avoid the mid-term blues this | :47:36. | :47:40. | |
time round? We are fighting the election in different circumstances | :47:40. | :47:44. | |
because of the power in Westminster, but it is clear that over the last | :47:44. | :47:47. | |
three years the Liberal Democrat councils have kept council tax | :47:47. | :47:51. | |
levels low and invested in schools and communities. There is no desire | :47:51. | :47:57. | |
for people to go back to Labour-led councils. The air is fun for | :47:57. | :48:03. | |
everyone in Barry, even on a day like this. And the main parties | :48:03. | :48:06. | |
hope they will be making the political weather on 3rd May. And | :48:06. | :48:09. | |
joining us from Cardiff to discuss all that, Vaughan Roderick, our | :48:09. | :48:17. | |
Welsh Affairs Editor. Good to see you in the Welsh Assembly. Mark our | :48:17. | :48:20. | |
card. As the results coming from Wales, what should we be looking | :48:20. | :48:26. | |
out for? Results in Wales are notoriously difficult to predict | :48:26. | :48:29. | |
because roughly a third of the councillors in Wales are | :48:29. | :48:34. | |
independent and because many of the parties, at least three of the four, | :48:34. | :48:38. | |
don't contest something like half of the wards. It is not a straight | :48:38. | :48:42. | |
battle between the four parties anywhere apart from the capital | :48:42. | :48:47. | |
city of Cardiff. This is the place you have to look at, the council's | :48:47. | :48:51. | |
mention their like -- by Rhodri Morgan, Cardiff, Newport, Swansea, | :48:51. | :48:56. | |
Wrexham, those are the ones fought by all the parties on party | :48:56. | :49:00. | |
political terms. Outside of those four, you have a mixture of | :49:00. | :49:05. | |
independence, at hoc groupings of small, local parties, which make it | :49:05. | :49:10. | |
difficult to draw conclusions. But we will want to look as well at | :49:10. | :49:14. | |
places that Labour should never have lost four years ago. The old | :49:14. | :49:21. | |
seat of Merthyr, and Neil Kinnock's old stamping ground. Labour lost | :49:21. | :49:24. | |
control of councils that covered those constituencies which they | :49:24. | :49:27. | |
should never have done. If Labour do not get those back, it will be a | :49:27. | :49:32. | |
very bad night for them. Now Labour are in opposition in Westminster | :49:32. | :49:36. | |
they will be looking to make some gains again in Wales. The Tories, I | :49:36. | :49:40. | |
assume, will try to hold what they have got because they are | :49:40. | :49:43. | |
historically in a decent position there compared to before. But Plaid | :49:43. | :49:47. | |
Cymru have a new leader. They have taken a bit of a hit in recent | :49:47. | :49:52. | |
years. Are they on the way back, do we think? It is the first big test | :49:52. | :49:56. | |
for Leanne Ward, the person who took over the leadership a few | :49:57. | :50:00. | |
months ago. Plaid Cymru think if they do not do well they can say it | :50:00. | :50:05. | |
is early days. But what may happen is that they will lose some seats | :50:05. | :50:11. | |
in urban Wales but they could offset that by gaining seats in the | :50:11. | :50:17. | |
rural areas from the independents. There does seem to be a gradual | :50:17. | :50:20. | |
decline in independence in Wales which will help the Tories as well. | :50:20. | :50:26. | |
When it comes to overall numbers we might see Labour going up but Plaid | :50:26. | :50:30. | |
Cymru and the Tory stain in the same place for which seats being | :50:30. | :50:36. | |
offset by gains elsewhere. For Roderick, thank you very much and | :50:36. | :50:40. | |
we look forward to the results and a couple of weeks' time. Vital | :50:40. | :50:45. | |
prescription drugs including those for breast cancer, heart disease, | :50:45. | :50:48. | |
diabetes are not being stocked in chemists around the country which | :50:48. | :50:52. | |
is leading to a dangerous short fall for patients who are having to | :50:52. | :50:59. | |
wait up will weep, which could be a bit scary. So who is to blame? The | :50:59. | :51:04. | |
manufacturers were not supply or the wholesalers selling drugs | :51:04. | :51:11. | |
abroad? In the studio we have Huw Irranca - Davies MP who has been | :51:11. | :51:13. | |
highlighting the problem and Samantha Ogden from The Association | :51:13. | :51:15. | |
of the British Pharmacuetical Industry. So, what is the problem? | :51:15. | :51:20. | |
The problem was illustrated by a constituent of mine who said to me | :51:20. | :51:23. | |
that she had been into the chemist looking for her breast cancer drug | :51:23. | :51:27. | |
treatment and was told she could not get it. The chemist had rung | :51:27. | :51:30. | |
the wholesalers and the local chemist and was now ringing the | :51:30. | :51:34. | |
manufacturers to get hold of this. She went for three days without it | :51:34. | :51:39. | |
and then they manage to get hold of one package. She is there every | :51:39. | :51:43. | |
fortnight asking for this. They know she's coming in. I was | :51:43. | :51:49. | |
disbelieving, but I went and looked at it and with the help of the | :51:49. | :51:52. | |
pharmacists organisations, what I have learnt is that this is a | :51:52. | :51:55. | |
problem across the UK and patients are at risk of damage to their | :51:55. | :52:01. | |
health. Who, in your view, is to blame? There is no one individual | :52:01. | :52:04. | |
calls for one individual to blame. The industry, across the supply | :52:04. | :52:08. | |
chain, has been doing a lot as a -- rectify this but evidence says it | :52:08. | :52:13. | |
is getting worse. It was acknowledged under Andy Burnham but | :52:13. | :52:16. | |
it has not been got to grips with. Some of the solutions are out there | :52:16. | :52:20. | |
and we are trying to persuade the government to take it seriously | :52:20. | :52:23. | |
because every debate we have in the Commons there is no acknowledgement | :52:23. | :52:28. | |
of the severity of the problem. can I come to this? In Britain we | :52:28. | :52:31. | |
are world leaders in pharmaceuticals. We are up there | :52:31. | :52:35. | |
with the Americans and the Germans. We own some of the biggest | :52:35. | :52:37. | |
pharmaceutical companies in the country and they are based here. | :52:37. | :52:41. | |
You see one on the way to Heathrow when you get a plane. How can it | :52:41. | :52:47. | |
happen in Britain? Pharmaceutical manufacturers supply medicines for | :52:47. | :52:49. | |
patients and they also make an effort to go beyond that and stock | :52:49. | :52:55. | |
anything between 50 and 30% more. The challenges that a small | :52:55. | :52:59. | |
percentage of pharmacists to have a business that not only prescribes | :52:59. | :53:03. | |
and dispenses prescriptions also trade medicines overseas for profit. | :53:03. | :53:09. | |
So it is their fault? I think they are part of the problem, yes. | :53:09. | :53:12. | |
you know they are doing that, should and should tell them to | :53:12. | :53:18. | |
stop? You are still getting the money. If the money is not going -- | :53:18. | :53:21. | |
if the pills are not going to the people who need them, but you still | :53:21. | :53:26. | |
get the money it is a win-win situation for you. The challenge is | :53:26. | :53:33. | |
making sure the obligation to the patient. You're not doing that. | :53:33. | :53:36. | |
There is no way the pharmaceutical companies can differentiate whether | :53:36. | :53:42. | |
medicines are going, so in good faith they cannot say they are not | :53:42. | :53:46. | |
supplying to someone. If you have a massive order and you know it is | :53:46. | :53:53. | |
going abroad could you say you will not supply? Now, we don't know and | :53:53. | :53:59. | |
we can do that. In some areas we are in full agreement with you. One | :53:59. | :54:05. | |
of the issues is if you had the focus all away down you have to say | :54:05. | :54:13. | |
you have enough patience stock first. But the first responsibility | :54:13. | :54:16. | |
is that in most European countries they have a patient service | :54:16. | :54:20. | |
obligation. It might not be the solution completely, but it says | :54:20. | :54:24. | |
you have to maintain stocks or your own patients first. Are you to | :54:24. | :54:29. | |
going to work together to stop this? Because it is quite scary, | :54:29. | :54:34. | |
particularly if you are older, that you cannot get your drugs. You have | :54:34. | :54:38. | |
chemists at the moment saying that they are spending as much a six up | :54:38. | :54:41. | |
to eight hours a week instead of being on the counter helping people | :54:41. | :54:45. | |
with complaints. Well, come back and talk to us. Thank you for | :54:45. | :54:50. | |
coming in. So, MPs returned to Westminster this week after another | :54:50. | :54:54. | |
holiday. They will soon be going on another. But I wonder if David | :54:54. | :54:58. | |
Cameron wishes they hadn't bothered. Here is Giles with the Week in 60 | :54:58. | :55:05. | |
One month on, and the budget continues to dominate political | :55:05. | :55:09. | |
debate. Ed and David were back in the thick of it with the Labour | :55:09. | :55:13. | |
leader taking on the PM over the charity, caravan and taxes on the | :55:13. | :55:18. | |
pasty. Even people in Downing Street are calling it a complete | :55:18. | :55:23. | |
shambles budget. Labour failed to block the granny tax but only by a | :55:23. | :55:27. | |
geriatric whisker. The backbench Tory did not improve David Cameron | :55:27. | :55:31. | |
smooth with a question about whether real life was just like the | :55:31. | :55:35. | |
Prime Minister? They are a few occasions when the gentlemen needs | :55:35. | :55:39. | |
a sense of humour. The elsewhere Theresa May was tackling the Abu | :55:39. | :55:42. | |
Qatada case ending up with us not knowing if she was coming or going | :55:42. | :55:46. | |
or what day it was. There was a little more love in evidence from | :55:46. | :55:51. | |
Chris Grayling who called on business and not so much too hard a | :55:51. | :55:54. | |
holiday but higher one. And after all that, it looks like Ed Miliband | :55:54. | :55:59. | |
is on the up after a poll in the Sun newspaper put Labour 13 points | :55:59. | :56:09. | |
:56:09. | :56:12. | ||
A 13 point Labour lead this morning, the sort of thing oppositions | :56:12. | :56:18. | |
expect to have in the mid- term. This phrase of a complete shambles, | :56:18. | :56:24. | |
although the more accurate term we cannot use, and a thing we did last | :56:24. | :56:29. | |
night and got bleeped out, is it systemic? Will they get through | :56:29. | :56:33. | |
this? There is a sense in Downing Street of panic. There is a sense | :56:34. | :56:37. | |
that once this keeps going for a couple of weeks, everything gets | :56:37. | :56:42. | |
seen through the same lens. It will be difficult to spin the Theresa | :56:42. | :56:46. | |
May think positively, but if all the right-thinking newspapers were | :56:46. | :56:49. | |
onside, they might have given her the benefit of the doubt and blamed | :56:49. | :56:53. | |
the European Court, but to get scenes -- scene as they do not know | :56:53. | :56:56. | |
what they are doing and once you get to that place, how can you | :56:56. | :57:03. | |
convince people you are competent? So we could have a while to run. | :57:03. | :57:06. | |
The MPs are going on holiday again and we are waiting for the Queen's | :57:06. | :57:09. | |
Speech and there is nothing for us to write about. It builds up a head | :57:09. | :57:12. | |
of steam. Until the Queen's speech comes, there is nothing they can do | :57:12. | :57:17. | |
to get back the agenda. On Sunday night we get the results. The exit | :57:17. | :57:25. | |
polls we get about 8pm. 8pm sharp. So, seven coquille. It is like | :57:25. | :57:30. | |
religion. We are watching our TV screens at 8pm and the results come | :57:30. | :57:34. | |
in. The exit polls are pretty reliable in France. They had been | :57:34. | :57:41. | |
so far. Does Francoise Hollande come into this? They are made and | :57:41. | :57:46. | |
tuck in the first round, it always has been, but could Sarkozy get | :57:46. | :57:50. | |
some momentum by coming first in the first round? He could, but | :57:50. | :57:56. | |
there are 10 candidates and Jean- Luc Melenchon, he might take a big | :57:56. | :58:03. | |
chunk. But, obviously, the Melenchon voters will vote for | :58:03. | :58:07. | |
Francoise Hollande in the second round. You have to be careful. We | :58:07. | :58:13. | |
all hope for a surprise, but not that kind of surprise. Not like her | :58:13. | :58:17. | |
father who got into the final round that time. We will leave it there | :58:17. | :58:20. | |
and we will be watching on Sunday night. Good to see both. Good to | :58:20. | :58:25. | |
see today and thank you to our guests. The 1pm news is starting on | :58:25. | :58:29. | |
BBC One. And Joe and will be back with all the political news on | :58:29. | :58:34. | |
Monday. I will be back on BBC One on Sunday with the Sunday Politics | :58:34. | :58:39. | |
and I will be joined by the Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg. It is at | :58:39. | :58:44. |