27/04/2012 Daily Politics


27/04/2012

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LineFromTo

Afternoon and welcome to the Daily Politics. Did Culture Secretary

:00:46.:00:51.

Jeremy Hunt break the ministerial code or not? Now a senior Liberal

:00:51.:00:54.

Democrat has backed calls for an immediate inquiry into Jeremy

:00:54.:00:56.

Hunt's dealings with Rupert Murdoch's News Corporation.

:00:56.:01:01.

Wanted. Big hitter to defend the Tories. Who on earth would want to

:01:01.:01:06.

be their man on the front line? Or woman?

:01:06.:01:09.

And speaking of big hitters, will this former policeman be fighting

:01:09.:01:13.

his way to City Hall? The Lib Dem candidate for London Mayor, Brian

:01:13.:01:21.

Paddick, will be appearing. We need to identify a degree of

:01:21.:01:24.

authenticity and compassion in the way we deal with this, otherwise

:01:24.:01:28.

you just seem like you don't know what you or talking about.

:01:28.:01:32.

Rupert Murdoch wasn't the only star of the show this week. We'll be

:01:32.:01:34.

taking a look back at some glittering moments in the

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Westminster village. All that in the next hour, coming up, public

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service broadcasting in its -- at its finest.

:01:49.:01:54.

With us for the duration veteran political journalist, Julia Langdon.

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And the young whipper-snapper from the Times, Sam Coates. We will take

:01:58.:02:04.

him down a peg or two! Welcome to you both. Now without further ado

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lets talk about Rupert Murdoch, who apparently has no power and if he

:02:07.:02:15.

had he wouldn't know how to use it. He knew nothing about phone hacking

:02:15.:02:18.

and was the helpless victim of the phone hacking cover-up at the News

:02:18.:02:25.

of the World. Poor fellow. And he was under oath! Hardly worth

:02:25.:02:28.

mentioning at all in fact, but let's talk about him anyway. But

:02:28.:02:32.

first here's some choice clips from the evidence he gave to the Leveson

:02:32.:02:38.

Inquiry this week. There is no question in my mind that maybe even

:02:38.:02:46.

the editor but certainly beyond that, someone took charge of a

:02:46.:02:51.

cover-up. Some might say that all this picture is consistent with one

:02:51.:02:59.

of a desire to cover up rather than a desire to expose. In minds like

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yours, yes, perhaps. I am sorry. I take that back. Excuse me. Did you

:03:08.:03:15.

have any discussions with Mr Jeremy Hunt about the bid? I don't believe

:03:15.:03:22.

I have ever met him. I am not sure he didn't come to a dinner once a

:03:22.:03:27.

couple of years ago. I certainly did not discuss it. When your son

:03:27.:03:35.

told you about the replacement of Dr Vince Cable, did he tell you, we

:03:35.:03:40.

have got someone better now? Words to that effect? I don't know if he

:03:40.:03:45.

used those words. We couldn't have had anyone worse. I am sure he

:03:45.:03:51.

didn't use those words precisely. I am communicating the gist of the

:03:51.:03:56.

idea. He had Vince Cable, he was dead against News International.

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You knew that on that 20 -- on December 21st, when it came out on

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the BBC, so it must have passed through your mind. He has been

:04:07.:04:11.

replaced by Jeremy Hunt, what is Jeremy Hunt like? Didn't you ask

:04:11.:04:19.

your son? I may have. I don't remember. You must have done.

:04:19.:04:26.

mustn't have done anything. I explained to you yesterday, I never

:04:26.:04:30.

saw anything wrong in what we were doing, that it was a commonplace

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transaction. A large one but a commonplace one. That was not the

:04:35.:04:40.

question, Mr Murdoch. So why would I be worried about the politics of

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it? Probably the last time Rupert Murdoch will be interrogated live

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on British television. And we've got a couple of deputy

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dogs with us now as well. For a first in British television ever,

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appearing together, Deputy Chairman of the Conservative Party, Michael

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Fallon, and the Deputy Chairman of the Labour Party, Tom Watson.

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Welcome. This unique and ground- breaking piece of television.

:05:07.:05:13.

Jeremy Hunt said he will give all the Leveson Inquiry e-mails between

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himself and Adam Smith to Lord Leveson, isn't that enough? He has

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obviously not sent any e-mails to him then. Are you that cynical? Yes.

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You don't think he would want to put into the record any potentially

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embarrassing communications? This is a ridiculous charade where the

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Tory party are trying to stop a proper investigation. Michael will

:05:41.:05:47.

have a row about it, he will defend the Tory line, and then in a couple

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of weeks they will have to do it. The inquiry into Jeremy Hunt's

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behaviour has gone to Lord Leveson, whose terms of the inquiry do not

:05:57.:06:02.

cover the ministerial code. I think Tom Watson would be more cynical if

:06:02.:06:07.

the government would doing its own inquiry. This inquiry is under way

:06:07.:06:14.

by a senior judge. Jeremy Hunt was already due to appear before it.

:06:14.:06:19.

Other politicians will appear later on, including politicians from that

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side of the House, the previous government, and we will get to the

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bottom of what happened. Lord Leveson was not a high it to judge

:06:28.:06:33.

on the ministerial code, he is not an expert on that -- was not

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employed to judge. You have someone who is an expert on the ministerial

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code, who is paid to adjudicate on the ministerial code, and you have

:06:43.:06:47.

not referred it to him. The because Lord Justice Leveson said the

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better course was to allow the inquiry to proceed and he will be

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able to weigh up the evidence and if anything comes from that that

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needs to be investigated under the ministerial code, that will be done.

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I have got the terms of reference for Lord Leveson. Where does it say

:07:04.:07:09.

he should pass judgment on whether a minister has bridged the

:07:09.:07:12.

ministerial code? Your Prime Minister raised the bar on

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ministerial standards. He said, we will clear this up. Now you have a

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guy whose adviser has Leeds these e-mails to a lobbyist for James

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Murdoch and now you a say we are too scared to have an investigation.

:07:27.:07:32.

-- you are saying. Do you think that will hold him up mind of the

:07:32.:07:37.

people in the country? There is an investigation that is going on.

:07:37.:07:41.

This Prime Minister set up the Leveson Inquiry. But he did not

:07:41.:07:47.

give them the terms of reference to adjudicate on the ministerial code.

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What the Prime Minister has done is set up an independent adviser on

:07:51.:07:55.

the ministerial code, he is called Alex Allan, simple name,

:07:55.:07:59.

straightforward man. Why he's been not allowed to rule on the

:07:59.:08:08.

ministerial code? There is an inquiry... A but not on the

:08:08.:08:13.

ministerial code, which Jeremy Hunt has been accused of breaking!

:08:13.:08:18.

they are central to what Lord Leveson is inquiring into. If it

:08:18.:08:23.

follows from this evidence that there is the specific issue under

:08:23.:08:28.

the ministerial code that requires further explanation and examination

:08:28.:08:33.

by Alex Allan, that will be done, but the first in is to let Jeremy

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Hunt put forward the information... Why not to Alex Allan? The

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ministerial code states clearly that ministers are responsible for

:08:44.:08:48.

the behaviours and actions of their special advisers. Jeremy Hunt's

:08:48.:08:52.

special adviser has resigned so therefore to work out why it and if

:08:52.:08:57.

there has been a breach, why do we not ask the man that the people are

:08:57.:09:02.

paying to police this ministerial code? Because we already have an

:09:02.:09:05.

inquiry into the relationship between government and BSkyB under

:09:05.:09:10.

way, headed by a senior judge, and he himself has said that the best

:09:10.:09:14.

course would be to allow that inquiry to proceed, to see the

:09:14.:09:17.

evidence and test Jeremy Hunt on the evidence and for him to give

:09:17.:09:22.

his side of the story, and if it transpires there has been a breach,

:09:22.:09:28.

that can be looked at. This is preposterous. The Conservative

:09:28.:09:31.

chairman of the Public Administration Committee was the

:09:31.:09:35.

independent adviser to see it. Simon Hughes of the Lib Dems wants

:09:35.:09:39.

him to see it. The only person who does not want it is the prime

:09:39.:09:44.

minister. The truth about this, everybody is running absolutely

:09:44.:09:49.

terrified because they know they will be exposed for being a tied to

:09:49.:09:52.

Rupert Murdoch, and that will happen to people in my party as

:09:52.:09:57.

well by the way, but you are defending the indefensible today

:09:57.:10:01.

and it is unacceptable and ludicrous. This government set up a

:10:01.:10:06.

full inquiry, you never bothered to do that. I am not answering for my

:10:06.:10:14.

predecessors. He was quite keen on the inquiry. This Prime Minister

:10:14.:10:17.

have to take responsibility. A minister may have breached the

:10:17.:10:21.

ministerial code and there is a procedure and you of running away

:10:21.:10:26.

from it and even your own backbench Tory MPs and important members

:10:26.:10:32.

within the Conservative Party say you were wrong. Let's go on to the

:10:32.:10:37.

border story of Rupert Murdoch and his relationship with politics in

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the UK. What did we learn this week, or what do we know now that we did

:10:43.:10:48.

not know on Monday? We know that Rupert Murdoch has admitted there

:10:48.:10:52.

was a cover-up at News International. We know he

:10:52.:10:55.

disregarded parliament, the blackmail allegation was raised

:10:55.:10:58.

with him when he gave evidence in July and he had forgotten about it

:10:59.:11:03.

by the time he got in front of the judge this week. We know they are

:11:03.:11:07.

fighting like rats and they are shooting each other left, right and

:11:07.:11:12.

centre. What we don't know, what other contexts of the Burton

:11:12.:11:20.

Copeland report...? News International have not given up

:11:20.:11:25.

their privilege of that glory at report. Yes and if that report

:11:25.:11:29.

identified wrong doing at the company in 2006, that might mean

:11:29.:11:35.

the directors at News Corp are potentially questionable under an

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act in the United States, and they may also be responsible for not

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letting their shareholders no price-sensitive information so the

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one thing he has got to do is published that Burton Copeland

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report. Is it not significant that the two people Mr Murdoch appeared

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to implicate him the cup a ruck, Colin Myler and Tom Crone, they

:12:01.:12:06.

said they had briefed Mr Murdoch's son -- implicated in the cover-up.

:12:06.:12:13.

Should we not see something thinner step in that? Everybody regards

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anything to do with that Mr Murdoch as sinister. -- should we not see

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something sinister in that? judge has got to look at this and

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draw on it. His every Allsopp of the Conservatives for the -- is

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every answer from any Conservative in the foreseeable future going to

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be that we have to wait for the opinion of Lord Leveson? Are you

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hiding behind Lord Leveson's robes or will you answer the question, of

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what do you think the significance is of picking Tom Crone and Colin

:12:51.:12:59.

Myler as the people responsible for the cover-up? Nobody is hiding from

:12:59.:13:04.

Lord Leveson. On the contrary, all the politicians and key people from

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News Corporation will be in front of him. Nobody is hiding. You off.

:13:10.:13:15.

No. The Prime Minister will be appearing in front of him. It is

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far better done, with great respect, by a judge inquiry than us

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speculating on various bits of the evidence which we have not heard.

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quite right so that's continued to speculate. -- so let's continue.

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think it is enormously significant that the minister in question's

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Permanent Secretary yesterday refused 10 times to say that the

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man we had never heard of, Adam Smith, had behaved properly. He

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refused to comment. I think it is enormously significant that Ofcom

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is also dusting down the way it is looking at the BSkyB bid. They want

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to look at hacking out to see if there is evidence to see if they

:14:04.:14:13.

are not fit and proper persons... And if I was a better -- a betting

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woman, which I am thank the Lord, to say that Jeremy Hunt will not be

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there next week. Absolutely. Tuesday afternoon, the Prime

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Minister decided that he wanted to keep Jeremy Hunt and a lot of stuff

:14:30.:14:33.

that has flowed from that, comes from that decision. It is

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significant that for instance people in government do not think

:14:38.:14:42.

there will be a Jeremy Hunt Amex in the Levison report, there might not

:14:42.:14:51.

be a section on him. It is unclear that it is his job to go into the

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line by line details of a Minister's relationship with his

:14:55.:15:01.

special adviser. That does not seem to cut it. I take a different view.

:15:01.:15:04.

I do not think Jeremy Hunt will necessarily go. I think the

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government have done an effective political and backroom job to make

:15:08.:15:14.

sure there are not any unexploded bombs. Next week they will hand

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over e-mails and texts which will not contain anything dangerous,

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Downing Street Arkley on that. Actually I think there are not any

:15:24.:15:28.

problems on Jeremy Hunt and he will probably end up staying in his job.

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We shall see. What usually happens is the unknown bit. These stories

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go places you never think so we Now we admire and love the

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Financial Times on this programme. Daily Politics researchers are seen

:15:48.:15:55.

scrapping over bits of pink paper from an early hour. Nothing to do

:15:55.:15:59.

with the fact that the editor has been mentioned as a future director

:15:59.:16:04.

general of the BBC, we have always just loved the Financial Times. But

:16:04.:16:07.

we had to take umbrage at one article this week, that dubbed

:16:07.:16:10.

Michael Fallon here, Minister for the Today Programme. Writers of the

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FT, he's ours. The Daily politics! And Mr Fallon has certainly been

:16:19.:16:28.

busy, batting for the government from dawn to dusk. Like one of

:16:28.:16:32.

these Test-match opening batsman who you cannot get out. After all

:16:32.:16:37.

it's not been the best of months for Mr Cameron. Some have asked,

:16:38.:16:43.

where is Baroness Warsi, Mr Fallon's boss? After all, you can

:16:43.:16:46.

be party chair, or you can be camera shy, you can't surely be

:16:47.:16:56.
:16:57.:17:10.

What is your reaction to those to resign? Two out of two isn't bad.

:17:10.:17:16.

Though a charitable man, I find it... I find it harder to feel

:17:16.:17:26.
:17:26.:17:40.

sorry for Mr Kinnock. The more he That is a second Tory victory being

:17:40.:17:47.

announced. So we have a rival for the leadership. I as party chairman

:17:47.:17:53.

have enjoyed it because most party chairman end up with sniping and

:17:53.:18:03.
:18:03.:18:15.

So, why do we always get the monkey and not the organ grinder? You had

:18:15.:18:20.

Baroness Warsi on this programme just two weeks ago, she was on

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Newsnight, she did Question Time last week. She is up and down the

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country. A rich you are on much more than her! Why is that? If all

:18:29.:18:33.

the ministers worked as hard as her getting over the government's

:18:33.:18:37.

message, we wouldn't be as far behind in the polls as we are. She

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was on this programme last week. you were asked to take the

:18:41.:18:47.

chairman's job, would you accept? We have got a party chairman.

:18:47.:18:53.

if she was to fall on her sword, follow the ways of Adam Smith, I

:18:53.:18:58.

don't mean the 18th century economy, if she was to do that, and her

:18:58.:19:02.

position was to become vacant, would you be up for this? It is not

:19:02.:19:08.

a yes or no, we have got a party chairman. So the answer is No. She

:19:08.:19:12.

has these huge advantage at not being an MP, so she can get out in

:19:12.:19:17.

the country, talking to activists, I saw her on Question Time last

:19:17.:19:24.

week. I don't know if it has quite a big audience... Don't you slag

:19:24.:19:30.

off this programme! She has been on all these programmes, putting the

:19:30.:19:35.

government's message over. They pull the other cabinet minister --

:19:35.:19:38.

if all the other cabinet ministers worked as hard as her, the

:19:38.:19:44.

government would be better shape. Part of your party organisers

:19:44.:19:48.

fundraisers, and it is beamed around the titanic event. Did you

:19:48.:19:54.

serve the same food as on the night of the Titanic went down? You

:19:54.:19:58.

invite Baroness Warsi and you hold it on Friday 13th. What could

:19:58.:20:04.

possibly go wrong?! I wonder. I hadn't heard of that won't. But

:20:04.:20:11.

there have been a lot of a titanic commemoration dinners. They need a

:20:11.:20:18.

strong chairman? They have got two, actually. They are doing a good job.

:20:18.:20:24.

It is a very typical, Sam Coates might agree, but governments get

:20:25.:20:29.

rough periods, and people stop blaming the chairman. They take the

:20:29.:20:36.

incoming fire, and you get this Corus. I'm glad you mentioned Sam

:20:36.:20:44.

Coates. I will just refresh his memory. "he works 25 hours a day,

:20:44.:20:49.

defending the indefensible, he gives a withering looks to certain

:20:49.:20:54.

questions. He is what they need, not a crony. Baroness Warsi is

:20:54.:21:02.

sackable. Please continue. course Michael is chairman in all

:21:02.:21:06.

but name, because few people are willing... All of us want you to

:21:06.:21:12.

get a pay rise, I don't know why you're resisting it! You should get

:21:12.:21:17.

the chairman's salary. The point about this government is that it is

:21:17.:21:24.

interesting how few are prepared... How few cabinet ministers come out

:21:24.:21:28.

and make the core argument about why this government is doing while

:21:28.:21:34.

it is doing. I'm thinking about the charity changes, explaining in

:21:34.:21:39.

public why the change was made in the Budget, or the NHS changes.

:21:39.:21:44.

There is always a bit missing in the speeches, justifying why the

:21:44.:21:49.

changes are being made. So there is a bigger shyness about this crop of

:21:49.:21:53.

politicians, about exploding to the public are difficult things they

:21:53.:21:58.

are doing, they don't want to be boxed in and say difficult things,

:21:58.:22:03.

but Michael is one of the few who does. One of the things going wrong

:22:03.:22:09.

with this government, and is a reason why it is in trouble is

:22:09.:22:15.

because they have not got the strategic situation sorted out of

:22:15.:22:20.

who is doing what and where. George Osborne is in charge of policy

:22:20.:22:25.

making, and bring the economy into the ground. Who is the chairman of

:22:25.:22:32.

the Labour Party? I know my place. Harriet Harman. I don't want her

:22:32.:22:40.

job, she is in charge, I do what she tells me. But he is the general

:22:40.:22:49.

secretary? Ian McNicol. We used to have people in these executive

:22:49.:22:53.

position to which stand up to the leadership of the party. That is

:22:53.:22:58.

not happening at Central Office. used to have general secretary is

:22:58.:23:00.

attacking their leader from there rostrum of the Labour Party

:23:00.:23:05.

conference, we have moved beyond that. Michael Fallon, you have been

:23:05.:23:10.

a good sport, so you will have the last word. I was trying to say, I

:23:10.:23:15.

think Sam makes a good point, it is up to all ministers to defend the

:23:15.:23:20.

government commission be left to Baroness Warsi ought to me. We saw

:23:20.:23:25.

Michael go out on Wednesday defending the decision over Leveson,

:23:25.:23:30.

and ministers have got to do that. It cannot be left to David Cameron

:23:30.:23:35.

or George Osborne or Baroness Warsi. You have a train to catch. The

:23:35.:23:41.

Harry Potter Express. constituency. Tom Watson, Michael

:23:41.:23:45.

Fallon, thank you for being with us. Now, the last few days have seen

:23:45.:23:48.

allegations of widespread postal fraud and vote harvesting in the

:23:48.:23:50.

London borough of Tower Hamlets. Labour and Conservative councillors

:23:50.:23:52.

have written to the Electoral Commission detailing instances

:23:52.:23:57.

where they believe postal fraud may have occurred. The Electoral

:23:57.:23:59.

Commission has passed the allegations on to the Metropolitan

:23:59.:24:06.

Police who are now investigating. To find out more we can speak to

:24:06.:24:08.

one of the MPs for the Tower Hamlets area, Labour's Jim

:24:08.:24:18.

Fitzpatrick. Mr Fitzpatrick, thank you for joining us. Tell us what do

:24:18.:24:22.

you know has been happening in Tower Hamlets? We have been

:24:22.:24:26.

concerned for some time about allegations of voting

:24:26.:24:32.

irregularities, there was a council by-election in the Spitalfields

:24:32.:24:38.

ward, last week, and as a result of that, residents have registered a

:24:38.:24:41.

number of concerns with some of my councillor colleagues over

:24:41.:24:48.

potential voter fraud, coast applications, people suggested who

:24:48.:24:53.

had voted, who had moved away or had died. Somebody who apparently

:24:53.:24:59.

supposed to be in prison. I have got no idea ability -- the validity

:25:00.:25:03.

of these allegations, but what we thought was appropriate to do was

:25:03.:25:08.

pass on these concerns to the authorities, and the matter has

:25:08.:25:12.

been referred to the Electoral Commission and the police, they are

:25:12.:25:16.

investigating. It is up to the operative to examine the

:25:16.:25:21.

allegations and see if there is any truth in them. In the working have

:25:21.:25:25.

been giving, and the work of your colleagues in the local Labour

:25:25.:25:30.

Party, do you have any sense, I know this is just anecdotal, but

:25:30.:25:35.

any sense of how widespread you think this is? No, we haven't.

:25:35.:25:42.

Tower Hamlets, as you know, is a dynamic, exciting political

:25:42.:25:48.

landscape. We got rid of the BNP in 1993, we have got rid of the

:25:48.:25:54.

Respect party, he has been resurrected in Bradford West, sadly,

:25:54.:25:59.

but a lot of dynamism in Tower Hamlets politics. They're always a

:25:59.:26:03.

distant and stories and anecdotes, but when a residents raised

:26:03.:26:11.

concerns which to us seemed worth reporting, it is our duty to report

:26:11.:26:15.

them to the authorities. It is a complicated political position in

:26:15.:26:22.

Tower Hamlets. Let me summarise it for our viewers, and see if it is

:26:22.:26:26.

relevant to potential fraud, but you have a Mayor who was in the

:26:26.:26:33.

Labour Party, but isn't any more. He was backed by Ken Livingstone

:26:33.:26:41.

against the Labour candidate to become a Mayor, and Mr Rahman is

:26:42.:26:46.

now backing Mr Livingstone to be Mayor? Is that the situation,

:26:46.:26:50.

roughly, and is that relevant? Could Livingstone didn't endorse

:26:50.:26:57.

his candidature Je, but I understand Mr Rahman is supporting

:26:57.:27:04.

can's campaign. He is looking at the two differences between Boris

:27:04.:27:08.

and Ken Livingstone, and the Tower Hamlets, the biggest issue is

:27:08.:27:13.

housing. Ken Livingstone's has a policy when he was Mayor was much

:27:13.:27:18.

better for Tower Hamlets -- housing policy. So it is night and day

:27:18.:27:23.

between the two on that core policy, so why would be surprised if people

:27:23.:27:31.

in Tower Hamlets didn't support Ken Livingstone. But the London mayoral

:27:31.:27:37.

election could be close, polls suggest it might be close, so

:27:37.:27:41.

electoral irregularities become very serious. Should we be

:27:41.:27:45.

suspicious, all right to be suspicious that so many people have

:27:45.:27:50.

recently applied for postal votes in Tower Hamlets? Well, as I said

:27:50.:27:55.

at the beginning, we have been concerned for some time, we monitor

:27:55.:27:59.

the situation very carefully, we know that we have problems with

:27:59.:28:02.

people joining the Labour Party over a number of years to have been

:28:02.:28:05.

signed up, there are suggestions that their membership has been paid

:28:05.:28:09.

by people who needed their boats to suggest candidates for local

:28:09.:28:16.

government. We have worked very hard with the council and the

:28:16.:28:18.

Electoral Registration Office declined Tower Hamlets's act up,

:28:18.:28:23.

and when we get allegations such as those, we obviously want to make

:28:23.:28:28.

sure that these are examined very closely. So if there is fraud, and

:28:28.:28:34.

I am saying it if, it can be nailed, and those responsible can be held

:28:34.:28:38.

to account and prosecuted vigorously, because this is the

:28:38.:28:44.

essence of our democracy, to have openness, transparency and honesty.

:28:44.:28:48.

I understand that, but we know the way it works with postal votes, it

:28:48.:28:53.

ends up in a particular household, these postal votes are then

:28:53.:28:56.

harvested, the people who have the bird macro are not the ones are

:28:56.:29:03.

filling it in, NGC are all sorts of boats being filled in by the same

:29:03.:29:07.

person or group. Is it the best way to make sure that doesn't happen is

:29:07.:29:11.

to go back to the old system, you only got a postal vote if you were

:29:11.:29:17.

not in the country at the time of the election? If you were going to

:29:17.:29:22.

be in Tower Hamlets, you didn't have. This is dynamic democracy,

:29:22.:29:26.

and there are changes all the time. The tightening up of the rules of

:29:26.:29:31.

postal voting, making sure the applications are valid, and now the

:29:31.:29:35.

requirements for signatures and date of birth, to validate the

:29:35.:29:41.

forms, means they are more easily identifiable if they are fraudulent.

:29:41.:29:45.

So if there are fraudulent forms being used, that should be able to

:29:45.:29:49.

be demonstrated much more easily than previously, when people to

:29:49.:29:55.

harvest them, and could send them in. So checking to see if the voter

:29:55.:29:59.

still lives at the address, is alive, not in prison, if these

:29:59.:30:05.

allegations can be checked by the authorities, that would clean the

:30:05.:30:09.

act up, and in that instant, postal voting can be convenient for people,

:30:09.:30:14.

especially those working, with children, shift workers. I did in

:30:14.:30:19.

postal voting itself is a bad thing, -- I don't think postal voting

:30:19.:30:29.
:30:29.:30:33.

Sam Coates. Let me come to you first. In Tower Hamlets, if there

:30:33.:30:38.

is an irregularity, the beneficiary is Ken Livingstone. That would seem

:30:38.:30:43.

to be clear. If the election is very close, this is potentially a

:30:43.:30:50.

huge story. We have seen during ministers make exactly that point.

:30:50.:30:56.

-- Tory ministers. Postal fraud has been prevalent in Britain in

:30:56.:31:02.

different parts of the country. Done by different groups. It is a

:31:02.:31:06.

very serious matter and if the result is close, we could be

:31:06.:31:11.

heading for the court. Eventually what is happening in Tower Hamlets

:31:11.:31:15.

is there are two distinct parts of the Bangladeshi community and you

:31:15.:31:19.

have different politicians using different tactics to try to get one

:31:19.:31:23.

and the other side on board. You see this in Birmingham and you

:31:23.:31:29.

probably saw it in Bradford with George Galloway, how reluctant

:31:29.:31:33.

politicians are to spell out the claims of tactics they use when

:31:33.:31:38.

they are in those areas, as opposed to how they talk about how they try

:31:38.:31:43.

to attract those voters. Jim Fitzpatrick just said, I think they

:31:43.:31:47.

preferred Ken Livingstone's manifesto. I suspect they have

:31:47.:31:50.

specific techniques they use in Tower Hamlets that they do not want

:31:50.:31:57.

to tell us about. Not only is postal voting a problem but

:31:57.:32:01.

personification is also easy to do once you have people registered as

:32:01.:32:06.

living in your house, and one of the allegations it there was seven

:32:06.:32:10.

people registered living in one room in Tower Hamlets, and in this

:32:10.:32:17.

recent by-election, someone in prison was on the register. The BBC

:32:17.:32:23.

has been doing quite a lot of this in Tower Hamlets. Had the media,

:32:23.:32:27.

have we not been alive enough to the corruption of our electoral

:32:27.:32:33.

system? Quite right. It is very easy to do. I have a number of

:32:33.:32:39.

people registered in my house who live abroad, I am met on it, and

:32:39.:32:48.

they have a British address. -- I am their Auntie. No, I am not come

:32:48.:32:52.

to personify them, if you are watching, officer! Personified,

:32:52.:32:56.

that means you fill in the ballot papers of all the people

:32:56.:33:03.

registered? Yes. Jim said to they can check signatures. How do they

:33:03.:33:09.

know what people's signatures look like? People signed, yes, I am this

:33:09.:33:15.

person. I could sign my niece's a dress if we wanted to. There is

:33:15.:33:22.

more to go on this. We are talking about London, although it is

:33:22.:33:29.

happening in other parts of the country. Tower Hamlets. Time now to

:33:29.:33:32.

speak to another candidate for London Mayor and today it's the

:33:32.:33:34.

turn of the Liberal Democrat contender, Brian Paddick. First,

:33:34.:33:40.

let's take a look at some of his The former police commander wants

:33:40.:33:43.

an increased emphasis on community sentencing and is proposing the

:33:43.:33:46.

creation of a pay-back programme where criminals are made to do

:33:46.:33:49.

community work like cleaning up graffiti.

:33:49.:33:52.

Mr Paddick wants more training for police to help deal with rape

:33:52.:33:54.

victims and more funding for support groups.

:33:54.:33:57.

He wants a large house building programme and pledges to build

:33:57.:34:03.

360,000 homes in a decade. And there are proposals for cheaper

:34:03.:34:05.

fares for commuters travelling before 7.30am in the morning, as

:34:05.:34:09.

well as a one-hour bus ticket so people can hop on and off busses

:34:09.:34:19.
:34:19.:34:21.

Brian Paddick joins me now. Welcome to the Daily Politics. Thank you.

:34:21.:34:26.

Can I get your reaction to these allegations in Tower Hamlets?

:34:26.:34:31.

moved address six months ago, because my post has been redirected

:34:31.:34:37.

and I used to have a postal ballot, I now have a postal ballot at home

:34:37.:34:42.

and a polling card for me to go in person and vote. It would be very

:34:42.:34:49.

easy for unscrupulous people to vote often and vote early. So you

:34:49.:34:55.

are sure of two! Of course I shall only be using one of those! These a

:34:55.:35:00.

serious allegations about Tower Hamlets. Are we right to take them

:35:00.:35:05.

seriously? Is this an endemic problem in parts of the country?

:35:05.:35:09.

There is a serious problem that needs to be investigated if we are

:35:09.:35:14.

to have confidence in the voting system that we have. The in Athens,

:35:14.:35:19.

you are in a good position in with the election -- in a sense of. You

:35:19.:35:23.

can, is what you want in the pretty certain knowledge that he will

:35:23.:35:29.

never be asked to deliver. A similar question was put to George

:35:29.:35:35.

Galloway a week before he won a by- election in Bradford. This could be

:35:35.:35:42.

the year of four much reality TV show's stars, you never know! --

:35:42.:35:50.

former. He wasn't on 5% of the opinion polls. You are out of date.

:35:50.:35:55.

Has there been a late surge? A poll in the Telegraph today shows me on

:35:55.:36:03.

10.3%. These postal votes really are working! When we did the BBC

:36:03.:36:09.

London debate. Which you did very well, I have to say. Thank you, you

:36:09.:36:15.

have more votes now. We spoke about housing with you and the other

:36:15.:36:20.

candidates and I put a question to you that in a sense, our ambition

:36:20.:36:24.

for house building in the capital has been quite limited. Even the

:36:24.:36:30.

promises are not enough. You are promising more but 360,000 houses

:36:30.:36:34.

over ten years in a city that many people think is already crowded.

:36:34.:36:39.

Where will you put them? That number was not plucked out of thin

:36:39.:36:45.

air. It is because we have identified brownfield sites, not

:36:45.:36:49.

back gardens and green spaces, but brownfield sites, where you can

:36:49.:36:55.

build these homes. Am I right in thinking that one of the powers

:36:55.:37:02.

that is now coming to the London mayor is that the mayor's office is

:37:02.:37:06.

responsible for the land bank, which is about 350 hectares, and

:37:07.:37:14.

has a budget of over �3 billion? It is a big deal, housing policy?

:37:14.:37:18.

mayor effectively have the same powers that the GLC used to have to

:37:18.:37:23.

build social housing. The majority of that land we are talking about

:37:23.:37:30.

are owned by the mayor. So we have the land already. 60% of the cost

:37:30.:37:36.

of building homes in London is the land cost. Take that out of the

:37:36.:37:42.

equation, you can build a 40% and therefore rent of 40% of the value.

:37:42.:37:48.

But how can you pay? We can borrow from the City. Pension funds in

:37:48.:37:52.

Europe and America invest in social housing. In the past it has been

:37:52.:37:58.

office blocks. In this country it has been yet another Westfield

:37:58.:38:03.

shopping centre. But economic times are tough. I would have thought

:38:03.:38:08.

pension funds would have seen this as a much better bet financially to

:38:08.:38:13.

invest in social housing and in the commercial sector. You say you will

:38:13.:38:17.

be tough on crime, and have been a police background obviously helps

:38:17.:38:24.

in that regard, but you have also said that police are wasted on

:38:24.:38:31.

cannabis. It may be right, it may be wrong, but doesn't it undermine

:38:31.:38:36.

your position as, I am a tough guy on crime and I know more about it

:38:36.:38:42.

than you? People misunderstand this. When I was police commander in

:38:42.:38:47.

Lambeth, local people said, crack cocaine and heroin is destroying

:38:47.:38:51.

young people, we are not interested in them being arrested for small

:38:51.:38:56.

amounts of cannabis for their own use. So we concentrated on

:38:56.:39:01.

arresting people for hard drugs. I want the police concentrating on

:39:01.:39:06.

local people's priorities. I was the police commander in Merton in

:39:06.:39:11.

south London before I went to Lambeth. The crime was fairly low.

:39:11.:39:16.

There was no question of not arresting people for cannabis

:39:16.:39:22.

because we had a time to do that. In Lambeth, we had too much crime,

:39:22.:39:27.

we will 100 police of his short, so it was priorities, and that is what

:39:27.:39:36.

this campaign is about -- we were 100 police officers short. It all

:39:36.:39:41.

seems so blue skies and apple pie and it all sounds wonderful, and it

:39:41.:39:47.

isn't going to happen because it is Ken against Boris. Has that been

:39:48.:39:54.

frustrating? The media particularly. Because we right personalities.

:39:54.:40:00.

These are enormous personalities. - - we like personalities. And you

:40:00.:40:04.

like a fight! But the public are fed up with these two scrapping.

:40:04.:40:11.

You will benefit a bit from that but 10.3%, you know. It is not

:40:11.:40:20.

gonna happen. That is what they said to George Galloway! I think

:40:20.:40:26.

the Independent will do very well... Not according to the opinion polls.

:40:26.:40:35.

She is behind the BNP and UKIP. is the media candidate. Sam Coates?

:40:35.:40:40.

I was fascinated about what you said about Tower Hamlets. Do you

:40:40.:40:45.

think if the result between Ken and Boris is very close and there is a

:40:45.:40:49.

big amount of postal fraud in Tower Hamlets, do you think the election

:40:49.:40:54.

could end up in the courts? That is always a possibility. Ken

:40:54.:40:57.

Livingstone desperately wants it because he can't think of anything

:40:57.:41:02.

else to do with his time. He has got his tax returns to do.

:41:02.:41:08.

Boris Johnson is very, very ambitious. If it comes very close

:41:08.:41:12.

and there is a possibility that borrowers can get it by taking up

:41:12.:41:18.

this issue of voter fraud, it could end up in the court. Are you giving

:41:18.:41:21.

any guidance to supporters on where they should put their second

:41:21.:41:26.

preference? No, only on where they should put their first preference,

:41:26.:41:31.

which is to vote Liberal Democrat. You may have a private one but you

:41:31.:41:35.

will not say that. Is it true you go home at lunchtime to watch the

:41:35.:41:40.

Daily Politics? Of course! It is essential viewing! I don't get to

:41:40.:41:45.

do that every day obviously but I am very lucky because the campaign

:41:45.:41:48.

headquarters is around the corner from where I live. They do allow me

:41:48.:41:55.

to feed occasionally on this campaign, which is good. Your

:41:55.:41:59.

campaign can afford it TV! I don't want to interrupt these very busy

:41:59.:42:03.

people who have hard work to do so I would rather go home and watch it

:42:03.:42:09.

there while I eat my sandwich. Brian Paddick, thank you.

:42:09.:42:17.

Now, more elections. We go from London to Scotland. Voters are

:42:17.:42:21.

being asked to choose who they want as their local councillor. But a

:42:21.:42:24.

year after their sweeping victory in the Scottish Parliament in

:42:24.:42:29.

Holyrood, will the SNP still manage to win new supporters? Or are they

:42:29.:42:32.

now the incumbents? And how is Scottish Labour planning to fight

:42:32.:42:38.

back? BBC Scotland's reporter, Laura Bicker, has been looking at

:42:38.:42:44.

the battleground of Glasgow. This local election campaign needs

:42:44.:42:49.

to be the fight back for Labour. But on the Clyde, they are bruised

:42:49.:42:54.

and broken. Splits within the Glasgow party have led to a

:42:54.:42:58.

breakaway group and Scottish Labour's new leader finds herself

:42:58.:43:03.

with a real battle on her hand it's. Our test, not to presume that

:43:03.:43:07.

people will vote, but to go and argue for every vote and that is

:43:07.:43:11.

what has happened across Scotland. Labour members right across

:43:12.:43:16.

Scotland, determined to get the message across that we will put the

:43:16.:43:21.

priorities of people first. fight in Scotland is for more than

:43:21.:43:26.

Glasgow's City Hall. 1200 council seats, all of them, up for grabs.

:43:26.:43:31.

Most of the 32 local authorities are coalitions. The nationalists

:43:31.:43:37.

take the lead in 14 of them. They want at least two more. If the F M

:43:37.:43:45.

B do really well and pick -- if the SNP do really well and pick up

:43:45.:43:50.

control of a couple more councils, then certainly Alex Salmond will be

:43:50.:43:55.

able to say, the people of Scotland are still behind me, that mandate I

:43:55.:43:58.

have got in terms of taking the country forward towards a

:43:58.:44:04.

referendum has been reaffirmed. Westminster politics still cast a

:44:04.:44:08.

long shadow over Scotland. The Liberal Democrat vote in some areas

:44:08.:44:15.

collapsed. But they are hoping to win back at least some support.

:44:15.:44:19.

are coming across a lot of people who voted SNP last year and are

:44:20.:44:24.

worried about them using this as a stepping stone to independence, and

:44:24.:44:28.

as a result, they will not vote for them. They do not want their

:44:29.:44:33.

council services to be used as a tool to get the SNP their stated

:44:33.:44:38.

policy of independence. That has changed since last year. But the

:44:38.:44:43.

Conservatives say they offer something different. The other main

:44:43.:44:48.

party manifestos are fairly similar. The Tories also think they could

:44:48.:44:54.

win votes at the expense of their UK coalition partners. We have been

:44:54.:44:58.

the fourth body of local government in Scotland since 1992. We expect

:44:58.:45:02.

we will be the third and we will increase our voting share so we are

:45:02.:45:07.

looking to improve. But it is the nationalists who on the march,

:45:07.:45:11.

fielding more candidates than ever before. But can they really win

:45:11.:45:16.

Glasgow? The SNP is fighting to win local elections in every single

:45:16.:45:22.

part of Scotland, not just Glasgow. We believe people want good and

:45:22.:45:25.

competent local government, in the same way they want competent

:45:25.:45:31.

national government. The SNP is all about jobs, families and fairness.

:45:32.:45:36.

Even if the SNP do not manage to take Glasgow, the fact that they

:45:36.:45:40.

are being listened to in this city is a sign of how the political

:45:40.:45:45.

landscape has changed. If the nationalists vote across Scotland

:45:45.:45:50.

increases with them -- with a referendum looming, it could have

:45:50.:45:53.

implications for Westminster and it is a voice that David Cameron and

:45:53.:45:58.

the coalition cannot avoid. We can speak to our Scotland

:45:58.:46:07.

It seems to me that the question in Scotland is whether the SNP are

:46:07.:46:11.

still the insurgents or the incumbents, and whether they will

:46:11.:46:16.

make huge gains. Let me start with Glasgow, what is the latest

:46:16.:46:22.

thinking on how that will go? have to go back to 2007, it is one

:46:22.:46:30.

of only two local authorities are where Labour won with an outright

:46:30.:46:33.

majority, but they wouldn't have done so if the SNP had bothered to

:46:34.:46:38.

field more candidates in a proportional election under the

:46:38.:46:42.

single transferable vote. So you can be sure that the nationalists

:46:42.:46:46.

are bothering to field more candidates this time, in the

:46:46.:46:49.

meantime, they have won another national election, and have the

:46:49.:46:54.

momentum of that behind them. So they certainly expect to pick up

:46:54.:46:59.

extra seat, but in truth, under the system, no one party should have an

:46:59.:47:04.

outright majority. A Labour hoped it will still finish as the largest

:47:04.:47:09.

party, the SNP hope that they will finish in that position in the end.

:47:09.:47:15.

It may be that there needs to be some haggling in Glasgow, and some

:47:15.:47:19.

kind of coalition formed to run the city in the future. That in itself

:47:19.:47:23.

will be a big change, because it has been a Labour-dominated city

:47:23.:47:27.

for so many years. Have you the impression that in terms of the

:47:28.:47:31.

campaigning, it is still the Scottish nationalists who have the

:47:31.:47:36.

verve and the drive, and Labour is still very much on the defensive,

:47:36.:47:42.

trying to repair itself on its -- from its recent miserable years?

:47:42.:47:47.

think the Labour Party expect to be the second party of local

:47:47.:47:51.

government after these elections this year, that is the position

:47:51.:47:56.

they are in, and they don't expect this time around to get back into

:47:56.:48:02.

first place. The SNP certainly broke the mould of Scottish

:48:02.:48:06.

politics with the results they achieved in the Scottish parliament

:48:06.:48:10.

last year, people will be looking at these elections are not just to

:48:10.:48:15.

see what happens in each of the 32 local authorities, but the that

:48:15.:48:20.

overall national picture, is the SNP juggernaut still chugging ahead

:48:20.:48:26.

or it is starting to stall? Certainly for nationalists expect

:48:26.:48:29.

to pick up extra council seats across the country, that is

:48:29.:48:33.

important for them for another reason, because they are aiming for

:48:33.:48:38.

the referendum on independence in 2014, and dump more councillors

:48:38.:48:46.

they have locally, the less other parties have. -- de Mort

:48:46.:48:53.

councillors that they have a locally. Just finally, what is the

:48:53.:48:57.

revelation that not only is Alex Salmond of the only major

:48:57.:49:01.

politician who will now be seen in public with Rupert Murdoch, but was

:49:01.:49:07.

prepared to lobby on behalf of Mr Murdoch's company to get BSkyB,

:49:07.:49:11.

what has been the implication of that for the campaigning for him?

:49:11.:49:17.

Alex Salmond has had a bad week, trouble with two tycoons, Donald

:49:17.:49:21.

Trump, who he has previously been close to, turning against him. I

:49:21.:49:26.

don't think these dealings do him any favours, I don't think they

:49:26.:49:31.

would in any vote, but we are talking about local government

:49:31.:49:34.

elections, when the most motivated people are the only ones who tend

:49:34.:49:39.

to turn out, and I guess different people in different places

:49:39.:49:43.

Northwest Airlines Flight 253 for different reasons. In Edinburgh,

:49:43.:49:48.

there is one big local election, with the runaway tram project,

:49:48.:49:52.

people saying they were used polling day to punish the

:49:52.:49:55.

politicians and parties they believe are responsible for that

:49:55.:50:01.

particular mess. Thank you for that. The problem is that the trams do

:50:01.:50:09.

not even work yet. After several hundred million pounds! There we go,

:50:09.:50:16.

Glasgow, an important battleground, just as London is. We will be here

:50:16.:50:21.

on the BBC on May 3rd. So, it's been a week of ups and downs. Two

:50:21.:50:24.

penguins in Scarborough are said to be making a full recovery after a

:50:24.:50:32.

break-in left them depressed. The Huddersfield MP, Barry Sheerman got

:50:32.:50:35.

upset over a bacon butty and Prince William gave a passionate speech

:50:35.:50:38.

demanding protection for endangered cats. Yes, it's been a busy few

:50:38.:50:43.

days. Other things may have happened as well! Here's Susannah

:50:43.:50:53.
:50:53.:50:53.

It is official, we're in a double dip, but the government isn't

:50:53.:50:57.

budging on austerity, recession or no recession. Was this the week of

:50:57.:51:03.

the Murdoch's revenge? He told us Gordon Brown was an balanced, and

:51:03.:51:08.

we found out how close the media mogul is to his papers. If any

:51:08.:51:12.

politician wanted my opinions on major matters, they only had to

:51:12.:51:17.

read the editorial in The Sun. other Murdoch put the culture

:51:17.:51:23.

secretary in the firing line over the BSkyB bid. Jeremy Hunt has

:51:23.:51:27.

dodged the bonnet so far. A rare bit of glitz and glamour at the

:51:27.:51:33.

select committee, when Russell Brand Through in a gag about Abu

:51:33.:51:39.

Qatada. We cannot run out of time. And his next, Theresa May? She may

:51:39.:51:46.

not show up! And the baker's descended to tell the government is

:51:46.:51:52.

a shambles of a budget was half- baked.

:51:52.:51:58.

I knew other things had been happening, thanks! When the froth

:51:58.:52:03.

has settled over Murdoch and the pastiche, and the charity tax and

:52:03.:52:08.

so on, one thing doesn't go away, and may not for some time. The fact

:52:08.:52:12.

we are in recession, and even if technically we come out of it again,

:52:12.:52:17.

the best you can say is it this economy is flat mining, and the

:52:17.:52:23.

political implications for coalition are enormous. When you

:52:23.:52:26.

consider this government is in place and set itself up as the

:52:26.:52:29.

government that will deal with the deficit, and recession means that

:52:29.:52:34.

the deficit is not going to go away, they're not going to clear it by

:52:34.:52:39.

the next election, I think there is a real political problem. The

:52:39.:52:45.

politics over what to do about the deficit is becoming a rictus, they

:52:45.:52:54.

have ossified between the stick with a Plan B -- plan a or not. I

:52:54.:52:58.

think they're a lot of things you can be half way in between. But

:52:58.:53:04.

undoubtedly come when you get to 2015, you will see the

:53:04.:53:06.

Conservatives are attack from the right for not bringing down public

:53:06.:53:09.

spending more, and attacked by Labour for not dealing with the

:53:09.:53:14.

deficit. All of this is mounting up to be a significant political

:53:14.:53:18.

challenge. The position they could find themselves in is, if it sticks

:53:18.:53:26.

with Plan A, it is staffed, and did it doesn't, it is stuffed. Discuss!

:53:26.:53:31.

Attic or probably find the government -- will probably find

:53:31.:53:36.

the government coming up against it before then, this government will

:53:36.:53:42.

not be hugely enthusiastic about these policies. In a way it is

:53:42.:53:47.

lucky for Cameron that there has been at the Murdoch distraction of

:53:47.:53:52.

this week, it hasn't played well for them either, but it has taken

:53:52.:53:57.

away from this, which is by far the at standing political issue of our

:53:57.:54:04.

day. -- the outstanding. It is in a sense, in terms of the fall-out,

:54:04.:54:10.

which is why I emphasised Glasgow and London, because if Labour

:54:11.:54:18.

cannot win with Mr Livingstone and his glass go to the SNP, on a 4th,

:54:19.:54:22.

despite the ways of the government, the story becomes Ed Miliband again.

:54:22.:54:27.

I think there is a national story to tell, but it is more mixed than

:54:27.:54:33.

that. The Labour Party may never recover in Scotland and will find

:54:33.:54:36.

it hard to form an overall government for the foreseeable

:54:36.:54:39.

future, but also that the Conservatives in the North of

:54:39.:54:43.

England and some parts of the South West are going backwards as well

:54:43.:54:48.

for, and will not themselves be able to form a government. So I

:54:48.:54:52.

suspect that what next Thursday will tell us is there isn't any

:54:52.:54:56.

great queue and cry from one side or another, there is more of what

:54:56.:55:01.

we saw in 2010 and we may be muddling through to another

:55:01.:55:11.

coalition. And huge into the Peter both major parties. Which Mr Galic

:55:11.:55:16.

capitalised on. And now for something completely different.

:55:16.:55:20.

Being arrested isn't a lesson, it is just an AD appears to dig a blip.

:55:20.:55:25.

You need to demonstrate an awareness of the situation. The

:55:25.:55:30.

disease and condition of addiction does exacerbate it, if you were

:55:30.:55:35.

taking expensive drugs, you will end up committing picking --

:55:35.:55:39.

committing a crime, but we need to identify a degree of compassion,

:55:39.:55:44.

otherwise you look what you don't know what you're talking about. You

:55:44.:55:49.

can tell what party they are in from their questions. What about

:55:49.:55:53.

the victims of the crime! I think all the parties are interested in

:55:53.:56:01.

that. Of course we are, we're not saying, ignore the victims. We are

:56:01.:56:05.

running out of time. Time is in for that, we cannot run out of time.

:56:05.:56:14.

Who is next, Theresa May, she may not show up! It is not quite a

:56:14.:56:17.

variety show have fostered the EU are providing a bit of variety,

:56:18.:56:27.

making it more like Dad's Army. You have a 4.5 million twitter dollars,

:56:27.:56:32.

having gone through addiction and Rehabilitation, what is your

:56:32.:56:36.

message to young people who want to get involved in drugs, what could

:56:36.:56:40.

you say to them about the effect it has? My message isn't for young

:56:40.:56:44.

people, it is by people who have this condition up addiction. If you

:56:44.:56:49.

have that condition, there is help available for you, and I recommend

:56:49.:56:53.

abstinence based recovery. I think some people can safely take drugs,

:56:53.:56:57.

as long as it doesn't turn them into criminals, I did feel it is

:56:57.:57:06.

any of my business. -- I don't feel. His parliament right to reach out

:57:06.:57:12.

to these figures, or is it making a fool of itself? I think he

:57:12.:57:17.

delivered an important message there, and a touch -- it is

:57:17.:57:23.

probably a good thing. Do you people listen to Russell Brand any

:57:23.:57:29.

more than Keith Vaz on drugs? don't think that Keith Vaz has 4.5

:57:29.:57:34.

million twitter far worse. Following and listening are

:57:34.:57:42.

different things. But we are assuming that if Bristol branch

:57:42.:57:45.

does say things, people do pay attention, do we have evidence for

:57:45.:57:53.

that -- Russell Brand. I do think making Parliament relevant to the

:57:53.:58:00.

next generation... He was grandstanding. But I do think that

:58:00.:58:03.

politicians are always seen as a money permitting things like drug

:58:03.:58:07.

addiction for their own ends, and playing to their audiences, rather

:58:07.:58:11.

than helping those who were suffering, so I think there are

:58:11.:58:16.

gains on both sides. We will leave it there. Thank you very much, it

:58:16.:58:23.

was good to see you both. It has been a busy week. We are going to

:58:23.:58:28.

prepare for the weekend. Thanks to all our guests. If you want to see

:58:28.:58:31.

the full list of candidates standing for the election of the

:58:31.:58:40.

London Mayor, just got to the BBC website a. I will be back on BBC

:58:40.:58:46.

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