Browse content similar to 11/06/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Good afternoon, welcome to the Daily Politics. | :00:41. | :00:44. | |
The markets react positively to the 100 billion euro bailout of Spain's | :00:44. | :00:49. | |
banks. But is the dramatic move enough to stop the rot? | :00:49. | :00:52. | |
The Leveson Inquiry is set for a high-profile week with Gordon Brown | :00:52. | :00:56. | |
and George Osborne appearing today, and David Cameron on Thursday. | :00:56. | :01:00. | |
We'll have the latest. Theresa May tells the courts to | :01:00. | :01:04. | |
stop using European Human Rights law to block deportations. We'll | :01:04. | :01:09. | |
debate Britain's membership of the European Court for Human Rights. | :01:09. | :01:13. | |
And lovely weather for cycling! Could we ever go Dutch and make | :01:13. | :01:23. | |
:01:23. | :01:31. | ||
All that in the next hour. With us is Baroness Helena Kennedy. | :01:32. | :01:35. | |
Lukewarm applause, the breathing space to stagger on to the next | :01:35. | :01:41. | |
round, but no clear sign we will make it through. Not England's | :01:41. | :01:46. | |
chances at Euro 2012, but the future of the eurozone. After the | :01:46. | :01:50. | |
100 billion euros bail-out of Spain's Banks, the markets have | :01:50. | :01:54. | |
reacted positively. But many are saying it is buying time rather | :01:54. | :02:00. | |
than solving the issue. Is this a big moment, the bail-out will calm | :02:00. | :02:04. | |
the markets enough and the eurozone has been saved? Or is it just a | :02:04. | :02:10. | |
sticking plaster? I think it is just a sticking plaster. It will | :02:10. | :02:14. | |
work for while and will help the banks in Spain, but I don't think | :02:14. | :02:19. | |
it will be a solution in the long run. There is a problem around the | :02:19. | :02:23. | |
eurozone with the institutions. It is good Spain because their banks | :02:23. | :02:28. | |
are going to be sorted to some extent. Some people say it is not | :02:28. | :02:33. | |
enough, the bail-out. It has created a lot of resentment because | :02:33. | :02:37. | |
they have been treated differently. Conditions are not attached? | :02:37. | :02:43. | |
Absolut gleeful stock they have a much safer situation in many | :02:43. | :02:49. | |
respects. There crisis comes out of his property bubble that there was. | :02:49. | :02:54. | |
But I don't see this as being the answer on the eurozone. There are | :02:54. | :02:59. | |
issues around the whole model, the whole economic model on which this | :02:59. | :03:04. | |
is being based. I have some problems also with the simple | :03:04. | :03:08. | |
solutions of greater austerity and save the banks. You have to look at | :03:08. | :03:12. | |
issues on how growth is created. I say that as someone who thinks we | :03:12. | :03:18. | |
should be part of Europe, and they don't want it to feed into as a | :03:18. | :03:22. | |
general sense that people have in Britain, thank goodness we are not | :03:22. | :03:26. | |
in the Euro. And if we get the chance leads to pull away from us | :03:26. | :03:30. | |
all together. You can see why people are not part -- Britain is | :03:30. | :03:35. | |
not part of the eurozone because we are being spare part of the | :03:35. | :03:41. | |
problem? I am one of them, believe me. I am grateful to Gordon Brown | :03:41. | :03:45. | |
for keeping us out because Tony Blair was so keen to go in. But I | :03:45. | :03:49. | |
believe in a global world with global markets, we have to be part | :03:49. | :03:55. | |
of something bigger. I say this to people who think, let's cut all the | :03:55. | :03:59. | |
ties with Europe. It won't work because most of our products are | :03:59. | :04:03. | |
sold in Europe and we have good economic relationships with those | :04:03. | :04:07. | |
who betrayed with. What about having a referendum to let the | :04:08. | :04:12. | |
people decide? I would be worried about having it now because at this | :04:12. | :04:17. | |
moment, the debate is too crude. I would want there to be a more | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
sophisticated debate about what are the benefits to us for having links | :04:21. | :04:25. | |
with Europe. What would be the downside if we ended up going it | :04:25. | :04:30. | |
alone. Been little Brits is not going to do it in a globalised | :04:30. | :04:36. | |
world where we see huge entities developing at a pace. Now, with the | :04:36. | :04:41. | |
Jubilee behind us, all eyes are back on Leveson Inquiry, as it | :04:41. | :04:47. | |
continues its relationship -- look into the relationship between the | :04:47. | :04:56. | |
press and politicians. A-list celebrities have given evidence. | :04:56. | :05:02. | |
Jeremy Irons's face the heat as he and his lobbyist, Fred Michel face | :05:02. | :05:07. | |
questions over his handling of the BSkyB bid. There will be a bumper | :05:07. | :05:11. | |
line-up of high-profile witnesses. Gordon Brown is facing inquiry, | :05:12. | :05:16. | |
with George Osborne due to give evidence this afternoon. The | :05:16. | :05:20. | |
Chancellor's role in the hiring of Andy Coulson is expected to | :05:20. | :05:26. | |
dominate. Ed Miliband, and Harriet Harman will take to the witness box | :05:26. | :05:31. | |
tomorrow alongside John Major. Deputy Prime Minister, Nick Clegg | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
and Scottish First Minister, Alex Salmond give evidence on Wednesday. | :05:35. | :05:40. | |
And the week ends up on Thursday as the Prime Minister is the sole | :05:40. | :05:47. | |
witness who will expect detailed questions about Jeremy Hunt and | :05:47. | :05:57. | |
Andy Coulson as well as Rebekah Brooks. | :05:57. | :06:05. | |
I find it sad that even now in 2012, members of News International are | :06:05. | :06:09. | |
coming to this enquiry and maintaining this fiction that a | :06:09. | :06:13. | |
story that could only have been achieved or maintained through | :06:13. | :06:17. | |
medical information, or through me and my wife, which we never did, of | :06:17. | :06:21. | |
course - was obtained in another way. We cannot learn the lessons of | :06:21. | :06:27. | |
what has happened with the media unless there is some honesty about | :06:27. | :06:31. | |
what actually happened. Whether payment was made and whether this | :06:31. | :06:36. | |
is a practice that could continue. If we don't at root out this kind | :06:36. | :06:40. | |
of practice, I don't think we can sensibly say we have dealt with | :06:40. | :06:45. | |
some of the abuses that are problematical for us. Let's stop | :06:45. | :06:49. | |
now to our correspondent who is outside the inquiry at the Royal | :06:49. | :06:53. | |
Courts of Justice. I have only listen to some of it, and the | :06:53. | :06:57. | |
impression you get is that Gordon Brown is a man who is trying to get | :06:58. | :07:01. | |
things off his chest. This is therapeutic for him to talk about | :07:01. | :07:05. | |
some of the grievances he felt in terms of how he was dealt with by | :07:05. | :07:10. | |
the press when he was Prime Minister? Gordon Brown sees this as | :07:10. | :07:17. | |
more than therapy. It for him he is setting a record us -- straight. If | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
you read the records he put out during this inquiry with a cynical | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
mind, you could possibly see gaps in which she did not wholly deny | :07:25. | :07:31. | |
everything. He has been straightforward, he contradicts | :07:32. | :07:38. | |
what Rebekah Brooks says. Rebekah Brooks said they had permission up | :07:38. | :07:42. | |
from Gordon Brown and his family to publish the story about his son and | :07:42. | :07:48. | |
cystic fibrosis. He said that is not the case. Rupert Murdoch has | :07:48. | :07:51. | |
said Gordon Brown declared it on the phone to him that he would make | :07:51. | :07:56. | |
war on his company. They call did not happen that were at the time | :07:56. | :08:01. | |
when Rupert Murdoch said it happened. But when there was a call | :08:01. | :08:07. | |
someone Slater, though was no threat. Be very clear contradiction, | :08:07. | :08:13. | |
which when people are talking under oath, it is a serious business. | :08:13. | :08:17. | |
People will ask questions, someone is not telling the truth. Looking | :08:18. | :08:23. | |
ahead, what can we expect? We have George Osborne coming up this | :08:23. | :08:31. | |
afternoon. We did have a warning, a strict warning from Lord Justice | :08:31. | :08:35. | |
Leveson that us in the media shouldn't be reporting the tittle- | :08:35. | :08:40. | |
tattle and who is up and down of Westminster out of this. We hear is | :08:40. | :08:44. | |
a Chancellor whose judgment has been questioned and will have to | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
account for the decision to give Andy Coulson a job as director of | :08:48. | :08:54. | |
communications, and if it was him responsible to give Jeremy Hunt, | :08:54. | :09:02. | |
the job as the News Corporation BSkyB bid. George Osborne possibly | :09:02. | :09:12. | |
:09:12. | :09:17. | ||
will hear from George Osborne this afternoon. The judgment of David | :09:17. | :09:21. | |
Cameron and George Osborne will be called into question in terms of | :09:21. | :09:26. | |
the appointment of Andy Coulson. The role of Jeremy hands over | :09:26. | :09:31. | |
BSkyB? We have had these sessions so far with senior members of the | :09:31. | :09:36. | |
Government, Jeremy hands giving evidence. It has given a clearer | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
picture of what went on and in terms of the procedure that was | :09:40. | :09:44. | |
following her over the Sky bid, it was not compromised by any external | :09:44. | :09:50. | |
oblique. You think Jeremy Hunt's position is secure? From what we | :09:50. | :09:55. | |
have heard so far, yes. Was he right to abuse whether this deal | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
should go through before he was given responsibility for it? People | :09:59. | :10:04. | |
can debate that. That his views get in the way of the due process he | :10:04. | :10:08. | |
had to follow, and there is no evidence it did. Perhaps the more | :10:08. | :10:13. | |
pertinent question is to George Osborne, the Chancellor's Texan | :10:13. | :10:20. | |
Essex to the Culture Secretary, "I hope you like our solution on the | :10:21. | :10:26. | |
day the bid for BSkyB was handed to Jeremy Hunt". One did you think he | :10:26. | :10:30. | |
meant by that? I don't know, but was is unreasonable that the | :10:30. | :10:37. | |
Government should ask he should have taken over the responsibility | :10:37. | :10:42. | |
for this bid? Even though he had made his position clear and said he | :10:42. | :10:47. | |
was in favour of it, it was the same as Vince Cable saying he was | :10:47. | :10:53. | |
against? He was more than sympathetic. The memo he sent to | :10:53. | :10:57. | |
the Prime Minister, he said whatever happens, to allow the | :10:57. | :11:02. | |
takeover bid to go ahead, has to be made on media polarity grounds. If | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
you fail on that task, the chances are it will be reviewed. He did | :11:06. | :11:11. | |
follow those principles when he handled it. Let's come back to the | :11:11. | :11:14. | |
George Osborne point, what do you think he meant when he said in a | :11:14. | :11:19. | |
text message, I think you are like a solution, which was to hand it | :11:19. | :11:24. | |
over to Jeremy Hunt? I have no idea, it is a text message. He will have | :11:24. | :11:29. | |
the chance this afternoon to speak about it. Was it unreasonable to | :11:29. | :11:34. | |
ask Jeremy Hunt to take on this role? Absolutely not. Is there any | :11:34. | :11:41. | |
evidence he handled it badly or suede? Not at all. Do you think | :11:41. | :11:46. | |
Jeremy Hunt should have been reported for breaching the | :11:46. | :11:50. | |
ministerial code? I don't think he did breach the ministerial code. | :11:50. | :11:56. | |
Should he have been reported so he could establish that? No, when you | :11:56. | :12:01. | |
have a public inquiry under way, it was right to allow that to take | :12:01. | :12:09. | |
precedence. I don't think any evidence that has come out of this | :12:09. | :12:15. | |
inquiry that this should be brought in. We're interested, Baroness | :12:15. | :12:22. | |
Warsi has been referred, have they been treated equitably? She has | :12:23. | :12:25. | |
admitted some irregularities and that has not happened with Jeremy | :12:25. | :12:31. | |
Hunt. The decision to bring in Andy Coulson, who's to blame for that? | :12:31. | :12:35. | |
The Prime Minister said last year when this was debated in Parliament, | :12:35. | :12:41. | |
he was given assurances by Andy Coulson, the same assurances given | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
to Scottish court and select committee is, if the Prime Minister | :12:44. | :12:49. | |
was misled in terms of what Andy Coulson you about phone hacking, he | :12:49. | :12:55. | |
was not the only one misled. Andy Coulson said he was only asked once | :12:55. | :13:00. | |
about assurances in terms of phone hacking? He was asked. His once | :13:00. | :13:04. | |
enough? He was asked and assurances were given and it turns out the | :13:04. | :13:08. | |
Prime Minister was misled, along with other people, too. All this is | :13:08. | :13:13. | |
coming out in the open, and we know why it is going on. The question | :13:13. | :13:16. | |
Gordon Brown has not answered this morning is, we knew this was going | :13:16. | :13:21. | |
on years ago, and there would be questions to answer. Nothing was | :13:21. | :13:27. | |
done about it. Let's pick up on Gordon Brown, first of all. He is | :13:27. | :13:31. | |
trying to set the record straight, as our correspondent set out. Is | :13:31. | :13:36. | |
there a level of hypocrisy in terms of the fact he was fraternising | :13:36. | :13:41. | |
with News Corporation in the same way as others? This story is | :13:41. | :13:45. | |
riddled with hypocrisy for all senior politicians because they put | :13:45. | :13:50. | |
up with it for years. Let's be clear, when he says we are the good | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
guys because we called the inquiry, but they have to because the game | :13:54. | :13:57. | |
was up. Something had to be done and that is why there was an | :13:57. | :14:03. | |
inquiry. It would have happened in the same way for whoever was in | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
Government. I hope you are rewarded for your great loyalties to | :14:07. | :14:13. | |
everybody around the story. Because it does not bear examination. | :14:13. | :14:17. | |
Sometimes as a QC, I feel I would love to have the opportunity to | :14:17. | :14:22. | |
cross-examine some people on it. It goes back to the business of, here | :14:22. | :14:27. | |
you came into Government in a coalition. There was a hoped some | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
things would be different, because there was a bad smell. But it | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
became clear have to get it points man. The points man who was brought | :14:35. | :14:40. | |
in to be the middle person between you and News International was Andy | :14:40. | :14:47. | |
Coulson. A terrible mistake? Let's go back on this point, which is we | :14:47. | :14:51. | |
have to call this inquiry now. Tony Blair was asked about this and he | :14:51. | :14:55. | |
said the Labour Party was not in a position to go to war with the | :14:55. | :15:00. | |
press in 2007. He did try, I know it is up to the Prime Minister to | :15:00. | :15:04. | |
make the decision, but he did say it could lead to a judicial review. | :15:04. | :15:09. | |
And there was an attempt. He became Prime Minister in months of this | :15:09. | :15:13. | |
debate taking place. And at the time of the information | :15:13. | :15:19. | |
commissioner report. And also the claim which is the Prime Minister, | :15:19. | :15:23. | |
David Cameron said this Government would be whiter than white and | :15:23. | :15:27. | |
transparency would be the byword for this Government. The Leveson | :15:27. | :15:32. | |
inquiry seems to have laid claim to that. We have never had greater | :15:32. | :15:35. | |
disclosure about the contact of senior members of the Government | :15:35. | :15:41. | |
with senior members of the media. The Prime Minister called the | :15:41. | :15:48. | |
inquiry with the support of the There's an inquiry which is | :15:48. | :15:52. | |
producing information. The idea that the Secretary of State for | :15:53. | :16:01. | |
culture media and sport had been basically on side with News | :16:01. | :16:07. | |
International, was in contact with e-mails and text messages more than | :16:07. | :16:12. | |
most people have with their lover, with their wife. It was a contact | :16:12. | :16:17. | |
that was absolutely showing they were in the pockets of News | :16:17. | :16:21. | |
International. I take issue with that. You have to distinguish | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
between contact before the responsibility and afterwards. I'm | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
not trying to say one government is whiter than white. When Gordon | :16:29. | :16:33. | |
Brown tries to create this fantasy that somehow he was distant from | :16:33. | :16:36. | |
the media, that the Labour Party took a very different approach, as | :16:36. | :16:42. | |
Rupert Murdoch said himself, he was closer to Gordon Brown than any | :16:42. | :16:45. | |
other senior politician throughout this period. Gordon Brown never | :16:45. | :16:50. | |
mentioned phone hacking. What tone should George Osborne be setting | :16:50. | :16:54. | |
this afternoon? It is a serious inquiry and he will give evidence | :16:54. | :16:59. | |
in a serious way. People will want to know about the text message and | :16:59. | :17:01. | |
today is an opportunity to end the speculation and set the record | :17:01. | :17:05. | |
straight. Thank you. Theresa May, the Home Secretary, is | :17:05. | :17:09. | |
gearing up for yet another battle with the courts - this time over | :17:09. | :17:11. | |
whether foreign prisoners' rights to a family life should mean they | :17:11. | :17:14. | |
can avoid being deported. It's a long-running saga, but just one of | :17:14. | :17:16. | |
many tussles between successive British governments and the | :17:16. | :17:19. | |
judiciary. In particular, ministers have been at loggerheads with the | :17:19. | :17:21. | |
Strasbourg-based European Court of Human Rights, with the current | :17:21. | :17:24. | |
government keen for reform and some Tory backbenchers saying we should | :17:24. | :17:28. | |
pull out altogether. But can a workable balance be struck between | :17:28. | :17:38. | |
:17:38. | :17:43. | ||
politicians and judges? We sent This is Belmarsh prison in south- | :17:43. | :17:47. | |
east London. It holds some of the country's most dangerous inmates, | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
including some who have been accused of terrorist offences. But | :17:51. | :17:54. | |
who decides he will end up here and what their rights should be? It is | :17:54. | :18:02. | |
not always asked. Sometimes, it is the judges who sit here, the | :18:02. | :18:04. | |
European Court of Human Rights. Britain helped set it up and we | :18:04. | :18:08. | |
abide by its decisions even when they override our own courts and | :18:08. | :18:12. | |
Parliament. There's the blocking of Britain's attempt to deport Abu | :18:12. | :18:16. | |
Qatada, although they have rejected his latest appeal. Then there's | :18:16. | :18:20. | |
votes for prisoners and the rights to a family life of up MPs and | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
ministers, dead set against, European Court says they should | :18:23. | :18:28. | |
have them. It makes some Tory MPs blood boil. But here's the thing. A | :18:28. | :18:32. | |
lot of Lib Dems like the European Court under laws that go with it. | :18:32. | :18:36. | |
David Cameron had to find a way of keeping everyone happy so he set up | :18:36. | :18:41. | |
a commission to look at creating a British Bill of Rights one also | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
reforming the European Court of Human Rights. All fine, until one | :18:45. | :18:49. | |
of the commissioners came onto the Sunday politics and said this. | :18:49. | :18:53. | |
After one year, it is now clear that it has been intended all along | :18:53. | :19:03. | |
to issue a report in favour of the status quo. We have considered the | :19:03. | :19:07. | |
question of parliamentary sovereignty only once in the whole | :19:07. | :19:12. | |
year that we've been in existence. I'm afraid it leaves me with no | :19:12. | :19:20. | |
alternative but to resign. I think the cause is so important to look | :19:20. | :19:24. | |
in a mature way at human rights and to make it consistent with | :19:24. | :19:29. | |
parliamentary sovereignty that I do need to pursue it, but not on the | :19:29. | :19:34. | |
commission. So is the commission likely to actually please anyone? | :19:34. | :19:38. | |
think the most the commission are going to do is define the problem, | :19:38. | :19:42. | |
to assess whether there's a problem and what it is. They are not going | :19:42. | :19:46. | |
to come up with any clear solutions and if there are solutions, they | :19:46. | :19:51. | |
will go out for consideration and discussion. We can't expect to see | :19:51. | :19:55. | |
a bill before the next general election and who knows what the | :19:55. | :19:57. | |
political complexion will be after that. High but some critics think | :19:58. | :20:02. | |
that is not good enough and that if we can't reform the European Court | :20:02. | :20:05. | |
and established his supremacy of Parliament, we should go. But is | :20:06. | :20:10. | |
that really an option? If you want to join the European Union as an | :20:10. | :20:15. | |
emerging democracy, you must first sign up to the human rights | :20:15. | :20:18. | |
convention and joined the Council of Europe. If we were to pull out | :20:18. | :20:23. | |
of the Convention, would we have to pull out of the EU? Nobody knows. | :20:23. | :20:26. | |
Theoretically that would be a risk. There are some people who say we | :20:26. | :20:31. | |
would be better off out of the EU, but it seems to be a big step to | :20:31. | :20:35. | |
take or to risk just because we are reluctant to give a few votes to a | :20:35. | :20:38. | |
few prisoners who probably would not vote anyway. Justice may be | :20:38. | :20:42. | |
blind, ministers have to keep at least one eye on the politics of it | :20:42. | :20:45. | |
all. Ultimately, who makes Britain's laws is about as | :20:45. | :20:50. | |
political as it gets. Joining us from Oxford now is | :20:50. | :20:52. | |
Michael Pinto-Dushinsky, who earlier this year resigned as one | :20:52. | :20:54. | |
of the eight commissioners examining whether a British Bill of | :20:54. | :21:04. | |
:21:04. | :21:05. | ||
Rights is needed. This afternoon, the Home Secretary will make a | :21:05. | :21:09. | |
statement to Parliament which many suggest will be a showdown with the | :21:09. | :21:11. | |
courts over this issue of the rights of foreign prisoners | :21:11. | :21:15. | |
battling to avoid deportation. Is she right to take them on over | :21:15. | :21:23. | |
this? I certainly don't favour politicians interfering with judges | :21:23. | :21:28. | |
on cases that are going on. I would not talk about the Abu Qatada case | :21:28. | :21:34. | |
because it is still going on, it is improper to interfere with judges. | :21:34. | :21:41. | |
When we come to matters of general policy, which is in a sense making | :21:41. | :21:45. | |
laws, then it is for Parliament to make laws and it is for judges to | :21:45. | :21:51. | |
enforce those laws. If Parliament doesn't like it, Parliament can | :21:51. | :21:55. | |
make new laws. That is what a democracy under rule of law means. | :21:55. | :21:59. | |
Is this really, in your view, empty rhetoric saying that she is going | :21:59. | :22:03. | |
to do battle and have a showdown, because as you say, without making | :22:03. | :22:08. | |
a new law, she can't tell judges how they should interpret the | :22:08. | :22:18. | |
:22:18. | :22:19. | ||
existing ones. She can introduce a new law. Maybe it is wise to do so. | :22:19. | :22:24. | |
The interpretation of family life has been broadened far beyond the | :22:25. | :22:33. | |
original intention. If she does introduce the new law, it is the | :22:33. | :22:39. | |
judges obligation to obey the law unless the court in Strasbourg over | :22:39. | :22:43. | |
rules the British judges and the British Parliament. But that would | :22:43. | :22:47. | |
take several years and would not happen within this Parliament. In | :22:47. | :22:53. | |
effect, she can making new law safely until 2015. Maybe that is | :22:53. | :23:01. | |
what she intends to do. So without a new law, Theresa May is a bit | :23:01. | :23:04. | |
restricted in terms of what she can tell judges to do, but she says she | :23:04. | :23:09. | |
has the public on her side on this. And judges and courts do listen to | :23:09. | :23:14. | |
public opinion so is this the right way to approach this campaign? | :23:15. | :23:19. | |
Michael is a political scientist and he is not a lawyer. He is not | :23:19. | :23:24. | |
in courts on a regular basis. There's a very interesting two step | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
that takes place between the law and politics. Judges don't exist in | :23:28. | :23:32. | |
a vacuum, they do listen to public debates and they are very conscious | :23:32. | :23:38. | |
of public temperature. They know that at the moment, we have a | :23:38. | :23:42. | |
government, and a government before, it is not just this particular | :23:42. | :23:46. | |
coalition government, the coalition before also had its run-ins with | :23:46. | :23:49. | |
some of the decisions by judges, but what happens is that judges | :23:49. | :23:52. | |
listen, but they know there are basic principles they should not | :23:52. | :23:56. | |
override. Have they over interpreted this particular law in | :23:56. | :24:01. | |
terms of the right to a family life? The question there is most of | :24:01. | :24:05. | |
us would agree, and it is set down in the principles of the European | :24:05. | :24:08. | |
Convention, that people are entitled to a family life and that | :24:08. | :24:11. | |
means that if you are given immigration status in this country | :24:11. | :24:14. | |
and you are allowed to be in this country, you are entitled to have | :24:14. | :24:20. | |
your wife and children with you. Where it comes into question is our | :24:20. | :24:23. | |
interpretation in relation to homosexuality, are you entitled to | :24:24. | :24:27. | |
have your homosexual partner? Are you entitled to have your | :24:27. | :24:31. | |
grandmother? Some people would say if granny has to stay at home. | :24:31. | :24:36. | |
There's an issue which has to be examined and it is usually dealt | :24:36. | :24:40. | |
with case by case. Families differ. What would be right for one family | :24:40. | :24:44. | |
is not always right for another. His Theresa May right to say you | :24:44. | :24:48. | |
have overstepped your remit, the public isn't with you either and | :24:48. | :24:52. | |
nor is the political establishment. Rain in your interpretation or we | :24:52. | :24:57. | |
will do -- change the law. In the months to come, you will not find | :24:57. | :25:03. | |
any cases that accountant... Judges will be sensitive to it and when | :25:03. | :25:07. | |
they are making their individual interpretations they will have in | :25:07. | :25:10. | |
mind that there's a general feeling that we should not be saying your | :25:10. | :25:14. | |
second cousin is somebody who is part of your family. Do you agree | :25:14. | :25:19. | |
with that? Do you have confidence that that is what will happen? | :25:19. | :25:25. | |
should say that on legal matters, I have every confidence in Helen The. | :25:25. | :25:29. | |
I have immense personal and professional respect for her and as | :25:29. | :25:38. | |
she says, she knows the courts and I don't. I am a bit concerned about | :25:39. | :25:44. | |
the view that judges should take account of public opinion in the | :25:44. | :25:50. | |
sense of becoming semi- political themselves. It is their role to | :25:50. | :25:55. | |
make judgments on the merits of the judgments. One wouldn't want judges | :25:55. | :26:02. | |
to be too politicised. But in general, I do agree with Helena on | :26:02. | :26:07. | |
that. Let's turn to the British Bill of Rights. We heard in that | :26:07. | :26:10. | |
clip where you resigned as one of the eight commissioners examining | :26:10. | :26:14. | |
where a British Bill of Rights was needed. You said the commission | :26:14. | :26:18. | |
deliberately ignored the prime minister, is that still the case? | :26:18. | :26:23. | |
And so Livy. Since I resigned, the only two oomph public hearings that | :26:23. | :26:28. | |
have been read, and they were to have taken place by now, have been | :26:28. | :26:31. | |
postponed until the autumn. We don't know if they will take place | :26:31. | :26:37. | |
at all. The commission is the only employee one graduate student as | :26:37. | :26:41. | |
far as I know to look into parliamentary sovereignty and | :26:41. | :26:46. | |
indeed I think there's no guarantee that that graduate student will | :26:46. | :26:53. | |
even be big eater -- be paid the minimum wage. There isn't any | :26:53. | :27:00. | |
serious inquiry at all. The whole notion is to waste time and to | :27:00. | :27:04. | |
block the government from doing anything by wasting its time. May I | :27:04. | :27:09. | |
just say one other thing that Helena may want to answer? It has | :27:09. | :27:15. | |
now come out that Nick Clegg spoke to one of the commissioners in | :27:15. | :27:20. | |
person, Lord Lester, and had a joint telephone call with the other | :27:20. | :27:24. | |
three commissioners, including Helena, two days before the first | :27:25. | :27:29. | |
meeting of the commission. Clearly there was some kind of fix up in | :27:29. | :27:34. | |
place before we even started. there a stitch-up with Nick Clegg | :27:34. | :27:39. | |
phoning you and others on the commission beforehand? The only | :27:39. | :27:43. | |
time I have had a conversation with Nick Clegg on the telephone was | :27:43. | :27:50. | |
when he invited me to be a commissioner. Each of the coalition | :27:50. | :27:54. | |
partners were able to choose four persons to sit on the commission | :27:54. | :27:58. | |
and I was one of the people selected to be on the commission by | :27:58. | :28:04. | |
the Lib Dem end, although I'm a Labour person. I think that is true | :28:04. | :28:08. | |
of everybody, we all had a call from the people selecting us to be | :28:08. | :28:13. | |
on the commission. There certainly was no stitch-up. It is interesting, | :28:13. | :28:17. | |
I'm sure Labour leaders will find it hard to believe that I'm capable | :28:17. | :28:22. | |
of being stitched into anything, if I were to choose not be. There is | :28:22. | :28:29. | |
the other point, Michael has no faith that the commission will | :28:29. | :28:32. | |
deliver an alternative, that this is a waste of time and they will | :28:32. | :28:37. | |
not explore all the options. became very clear, and it is one of | :28:37. | :28:43. | |
the reasons Michael is no longer on the commission,... Michael would | :28:43. | :28:49. | |
like to see that this was not the remit of this commission. This | :28:49. | :28:53. | |
commission's terms of reference were not to be saying we should be | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
leaving the European Convention on Human Rights... Parliament has | :28:56. | :29:01. | |
sovereignty. No. Parliamentary sovereignty is part of what we are | :29:01. | :29:04. | |
looking at. When it comes to the report which will be published at | :29:04. | :29:08. | |
the end of this year, it will be giving recommendations to | :29:08. | :29:12. | |
government as to how they could take this forward and it will give | :29:12. | :29:15. | |
recommendations in relation to should there be a British Bill of | :29:15. | :29:19. | |
Rights, if so what form it would take, or should we stick with what | :29:19. | :29:21. | |
we have an make amendments and find other ways of enriching this | :29:21. | :29:28. | |
process? Thank you both very much. Towards the end of the year, we | :29:28. | :29:31. | |
will have the recommendations and you will see if your fears are | :29:31. | :29:41. | |
:29:41. | :29:43. | ||
You may remember we towed due of some research the University of | :29:43. | :29:49. | |
Strathclyde was doing to study the mood of the nation. Participants | :29:49. | :29:55. | |
were being tested that being exposed to a flagging image would | :29:55. | :30:01. | |
affect their answers. This is what they found. Seeing a flag does | :30:01. | :30:05. | |
affect how the respondent response to the state of the economy in | :30:05. | :30:10. | |
England and Scotland. It made people feel more anxious. Exposure | :30:10. | :30:15. | |
to the Union Jack increases estate of pride in being English. It was | :30:15. | :30:21. | |
not the case for the Scottish flag. What does this mean? Joining us | :30:21. | :30:27. | |
from Glasgow is a professor who has been conducting his research for | :30:27. | :30:33. | |
Strathclyde University. What does it mean? We emphasise straight away | :30:33. | :30:38. | |
but these are representative surveys. We have two samples from | :30:38. | :30:43. | |
England and Scotland of people who responded to this particular quiz. | :30:43. | :30:48. | |
Straight away we put the little caveat in, they are groups of | :30:48. | :30:53. | |
English and Scottish respondents who are possibly particularly | :30:53. | :30:58. | |
interested because they are watching your programme. What was | :30:58. | :31:03. | |
interesting is the way different UK flag splayed out in different ways | :31:03. | :31:07. | |
within the two difference sample groups. Critically, the story on | :31:07. | :31:12. | |
the economy was interesting. And there has been a tendency to say | :31:12. | :31:17. | |
there has been a split between national identity issues that tried | :31:17. | :31:22. | |
public opinion, and economic, hard rational views that drive public | :31:22. | :31:27. | |
opinion. What we think it shows is these two have closely combined, | :31:28. | :31:32. | |
which is a commonsense thing, but not what people using their | :31:32. | :31:36. | |
analysis. The fact you trigger their national identity seems to | :31:36. | :31:41. | |
affect how they make rational decisions on whether they think the | :31:41. | :31:45. | |
economy is doing well, whether it feels them feel confident or a bit | :31:45. | :31:51. | |
uneasy. It is this point, respondents who saw a Scottish flag | :31:51. | :31:56. | |
felt more anxious about the economy. Is that because of the current | :31:56. | :32:01. | |
economic times that we are in now? What did he make of that? He is | :32:01. | :32:09. | |
difficult to tell. We get this data and we have to interpret it wide it | :32:09. | :32:14. | |
has to that effect and it is open to speculation. We had the number | :32:14. | :32:18. | |
of people who came back and said it is difficult for them to | :32:18. | :32:22. | |
disentangle the question of the Scottish of the English economy. | :32:22. | :32:27. | |
They are feeling a bit, when they say you make them feel English on | :32:27. | :32:31. | |
make them feel Scottish, they feel they don't have that much control | :32:31. | :32:34. | |
over the economy in England and Scotland because is a part of the | :32:34. | :32:44. | |
UK economy. Also, given the current debates on whether there should be | :32:44. | :32:48. | |
more control over the economy in Scotland. The other side of it | :32:48. | :32:53. | |
could be the opposite. It could be people are feeling anxious about if | :32:53. | :32:57. | |
we were to go it alone, if there was some kind of control over the | :32:57. | :33:03. | |
economy, would they feel more anxious? Helena Kennedy, on the | :33:03. | :33:09. | |
headlines of that, would you, on the basis of those answers hazard a | :33:09. | :33:14. | |
guess the question on Scottish independence would be on identity? | :33:14. | :33:19. | |
I think it will be Economics that it will determine it. The Scots are | :33:19. | :33:22. | |
very canny and they will want to know if they can survive on their | :33:22. | :33:27. | |
own. When we hear Scottish Nationalist politicians saying, we | :33:27. | :33:31. | |
could be absolutely successful without being linked to England, I | :33:31. | :33:36. | |
think there is a lot of concern about whether it is true. I think | :33:36. | :33:41. | |
they should be some hard, independent, economic analysis done | :33:41. | :33:44. | |
with no British economists or Scottish ones, but a set of | :33:44. | :33:49. | |
economists from abroad to look at it independently. Independently | :33:50. | :33:55. | |
always been difficult. I was struck over the Jubilee period and the | :33:55. | :34:01. | |
events, and the number of Union Jack flags, no negatives | :34:01. | :34:06. | |
connotations associated with that? I was of the generation in the 70s | :34:06. | :34:10. | |
when I was a young woman demonstrating, I was concerned | :34:10. | :34:15. | |
about racism and it is the flag that was used by the National Front. | :34:15. | :34:22. | |
It lived at me for a long time, being linked with racists. It has | :34:22. | :34:26. | |
shed that very largely. People did not feel that at all, watching the | :34:26. | :34:32. | |
sea of flags. Adam Shaw in Scotland or in Northern Ireland, seeing the | :34:32. | :34:36. | |
Union Jack, it may create different ripples because there are people | :34:36. | :34:42. | |
who still see it as a flag which is about imperialism and about somehow | :34:42. | :34:46. | |
being conquered nations. I don't know, but I suspect it still lives | :34:46. | :34:52. | |
on. A fan's for bringing us that research and Helena Kennedy, being | :34:52. | :34:57. | |
a guest of the day for. MPs are now back in Westminster for | :34:57. | :35:02. | |
the last session before the summer holidays. It is looking like a busy | :35:02. | :35:06. | |
week for political hacks. We will hear more from Theresa May on | :35:06. | :35:10. | |
immigration this afternoon's. She has already said she will get tough | :35:10. | :35:15. | |
and judges who will refuse to deport foreign criminals because of | :35:15. | :35:20. | |
their human rights. PMQs should be interesting. Expect | :35:20. | :35:25. | |
the Prime Minister to be questioned on the recent U-turns. On Thursday | :35:25. | :35:28. | |
the Prime Minister is in the spotlight giving evidence at | :35:28. | :35:33. | |
Leveson Inquiry. An economy will be back on the agenda with George | :35:33. | :35:40. | |
Osborne's mansions house speech at the Lord Mayor's dinner. Let's talk | :35:40. | :35:44. | |
to George Parker from the Financial Times and Alison little from the | :35:44. | :35:49. | |
Daily Express. George Parker, the Financial Times has written a lot | :35:49. | :35:52. | |
about George Osborne blaming the eurozone for Britain's lack of | :35:52. | :35:57. | |
growth. But a lot of the criticism comes from the Tory party, how | :35:57. | :36:02. | |
dangerous is it for the Chancellor? It is the central political | :36:02. | :36:06. | |
argument, who is to blame for Britain's poor economic | :36:07. | :36:10. | |
performance? Labour have been St George Osborne cannot possibly | :36:10. | :36:14. | |
blame it all on the eurozone. He should be doing more to stimulate | :36:14. | :36:21. | |
the economy, cutting taxes. We have at least three senior Tory right- | :36:21. | :36:25. | |
wingers St George Osborne shouldn't use the euro zone crisis as an | :36:25. | :36:29. | |
alibi, and to be doing more in terms of cutting business taxation, | :36:29. | :36:33. | |
cutting red tape to get business going. It is a difficult position | :36:33. | :36:37. | |
for George Osborne to find himself to be in, being attacked from the | :36:37. | :36:42. | |
left and the right as to who is to blame for this double-dip recession. | :36:42. | :36:47. | |
Alison, how much more pressure it is there now for a referendum? | :36:47. | :36:54. | |
is growing all the time. My paper would support that. We have become | :36:54. | :36:59. | |
increasingly mainstream. George Osborne, he has been trying to | :36:59. | :37:04. | |
signal in recent days he would support a referendum. He is trying | :37:04. | :37:08. | |
to throw that in his own right wingers, but they are sceptical, | :37:08. | :37:15. | |
they would want to see it written down in black and white. They | :37:15. | :37:18. | |
wouldn't be satisfied with the hints because we have had hints | :37:18. | :37:22. | |
over a referendum before and it has not happened. But pressure is | :37:22. | :37:26. | |
definitely growing. Looking over the recess and the U-turn is that | :37:26. | :37:31. | |
one made over various tax policies, do you think it will be | :37:31. | :37:36. | |
regurgitated at PMQs this week? certain it will be. If I was Ed | :37:36. | :37:42. | |
Miliband, it is something I would want to look at and what my | :37:42. | :37:48. | |
colleagues said, Martin Brown dubbed the Budget. The series of U- | :37:48. | :37:53. | |
turns that have taken place. Labour are using one of their debate days | :37:54. | :37:58. | |
to call a debate about the VAT on caravans, which the Government has | :37:58. | :38:05. | |
poof formed -- has not yet performed a four U turn on. I am | :38:05. | :38:10. | |
certain Ed Miliband will go on the economy as well. The budgie U-turns | :38:10. | :38:15. | |
were not particularly significant, but it is a question of competence | :38:15. | :38:20. | |
and capability of the Treasury. But the Treasury cannot do the simple | :38:20. | :38:23. | |
things right, that will be the next question going into the next | :38:23. | :38:27. | |
election. Abington all there will be an urgent question on budget U- | :38:27. | :38:35. | |
turns. -- I have been told. We have had, we have just been talking | :38:35. | :38:39. | |
about the jubilee celebrations, the football is on, is there a feel- | :38:39. | :38:44. | |
good factor this week? Feel-good factors can be over done in | :38:44. | :38:49. | |
politics. We are still a couple of years off from the next general -- | :38:49. | :38:54. | |
General Election. The Olympics is giving a feel-good factor. But | :38:54. | :39:00. | |
going back to the 1966 World Cup, there is a myth propagated that | :39:00. | :39:09. | |
Harold Wilson won the election because of the 1966 World Cup | :39:09. | :39:14. | |
victory, but he did actually win the election months before. | :39:14. | :39:19. | |
what about the news David Cameron and his wife, Samantha, manage to | :39:19. | :39:24. | |
leave it there a year old daughter in the pub after Sunday lunch? | :39:24. | :39:28. | |
could not make it up. A lot of parents will be sympathetic to this | :39:28. | :39:32. | |
because a lot have said, I have done this, and done even worse | :39:32. | :39:39. | |
things. More serious questions however, they are coming up this | :39:39. | :39:43. | |
morning with people saying if the Prime Minister's security personnel | :39:43. | :39:48. | |
were with him, don't they do a head count to see who is there? And also | :39:48. | :39:53. | |
some parents seem to be reporting they have done similar things in | :39:53. | :39:58. | |
the past and got a visit from social services about it. What will | :39:58. | :40:03. | |
happen to the Prime Minister? It is a mixed blessing, but it definitely | :40:03. | :40:07. | |
plays into the sense at the moment, anything could Government such as | :40:07. | :40:12. | |
falls apart. The narrative does not help, he cannot look after his own | :40:12. | :40:17. | |
children, can he look after the country. Most of the criticism is | :40:17. | :40:21. | |
he has been spending too much time thinking about his family and Tory | :40:22. | :40:27. | |
MPs saying he puts the school run before the national interests. It | :40:27. | :40:31. | |
is difficult to pin this on him that he neglects his children. It | :40:31. | :40:35. | |
would have been more difficult for Ed Miliband, because he did not put | :40:35. | :40:39. | |
his name on the birth certificates of one of his children. But pinning | :40:40. | :40:42. | |
this on David Cameron that he neglects his children, would be a | :40:42. | :40:47. | |
bit tricky. Now, this morning markets in Europe | :40:47. | :40:51. | |
and Asia welcomed the bail-out of Spain's bangs that was agreed over | :40:51. | :40:58. | |
the weekend. On Saturday, eurozone ministers agreed to lend Spain up | :40:58. | :41:03. | |
to 100 billion euros. -- banks. We can now talk to Richard Hunt of. | :41:03. | :41:10. | |
Reasonably positive, the market reaction? Yes it was. Equally, it | :41:10. | :41:14. | |
is another chapter on what will be an ongoing saga in terms of | :41:14. | :41:19. | |
resolving the ongoing crisis. Whilst the market open probably 100 | :41:19. | :41:23. | |
points up, a couple of minutes ago it had given away most of those | :41:23. | :41:29. | |
gains. The realisation is beginning to dawn, this is something of a fix | :41:29. | :41:34. | |
rather than a long-term solution. You say it is a fix, and it does | :41:34. | :41:39. | |
sound like a lot of money and the IMF had identified around 40 | :41:39. | :41:44. | |
billion euros needed to help out Spain in trouble. Does this do more | :41:44. | :41:48. | |
than put a sticking plaster over the banking, could the | :41:48. | :41:52. | |
recapitalisation of the banking crisis separate it from the | :41:52. | :41:56. | |
sovereign debt crisis? The way it looks like it is going to work, and | :41:56. | :42:01. | |
this is the uncertainty, the money will pass to the banks through the | :42:01. | :42:05. | |
Sovereign and the possibility there of course is the sovereign which is | :42:05. | :42:09. | |
them effectively underlying this amount of money. It would put | :42:09. | :42:13. | |
pressure on it, when it has to go back to the markets to borrow for | :42:13. | :42:18. | |
its own purposes. There are other ramifications, for example - the | :42:18. | :42:22. | |
fact this has gone through so quickly may call into question | :42:22. | :42:26. | |
whether the likes of Portugal, Ireland and Greece now come back to | :42:26. | :42:30. | |
the table to renegotiate their own debt which will put more pressure | :42:30. | :42:35. | |
on the stability facility within the eurozone. It is not bad news | :42:35. | :42:38. | |
and the market has reacted accordingly, but equally they | :42:38. | :42:40. | |
remain a lot of unanswered questions. | :42:40. | :42:45. | |
I have been joined for the rest of the programme by the Conservative | :42:45. | :42:53. | |
MP, the Labour MP, Tony Perkins and the Liberal Democrat Mr Perkins. We | :42:53. | :42:57. | |
have had this phrase from George Osborne the eurozone is killing of | :42:57. | :43:02. | |
Britain's chances of any growth, paraphrasing it slightly, but that | :43:02. | :43:07. | |
was the broad thrust of it. Is the Government impotent in terms of | :43:07. | :43:10. | |
doing anything to promote growth? There is a lot the Government can | :43:10. | :43:17. | |
do to promote growth. He said he cannot. We put 49% of our exports | :43:17. | :43:22. | |
to the eurozone area. It is clear for everyone to see the eurozone is | :43:22. | :43:26. | |
lurching from one crisis to another, and there isn't a clear solution in | :43:26. | :43:31. | |
sight, that will be implemented. That will have an effect on his | :43:31. | :43:36. | |
economic situation at home. What we have seen is the Chancellor and the | :43:36. | :43:42. | |
Prime Minister saying and shouting loud, to Angela Merkel, you have | :43:42. | :43:46. | |
got to sort this problem out now. Everybody accepts the Euros and | :43:46. | :43:52. | |
crisis is having an effect, not only on Europe, but globally. -- | :43:52. | :43:56. | |
eurozone stock in the case of Switzerland, not even in the | :43:56. | :44:00. | |
European Union, they do have rows, why can't Britain promote its own | :44:00. | :44:06. | |
growth? But there is a lot been done to promote growth. But it has | :44:06. | :44:11. | |
not happened, there is no growth. If you speak to international | :44:11. | :44:16. | |
investors, people who have money and looking for places to put it. | :44:16. | :44:21. | |
Britain is one of the top destinations. Whether it is Nissan, | :44:21. | :44:25. | |
China Investment Corporation, but we need to do more to promote that | :44:25. | :44:29. | |
activity. So there are opportunities. When do you see | :44:29. | :44:34. | |
growth coming back? I cannot predict, but what we have got to do | :44:34. | :44:38. | |
to promote growth is do the right things to raise business confidence. | :44:38. | :44:43. | |
It is businesses and businesses investing that will drive the | :44:43. | :44:49. | |
growth we need. The danger in this debate, the substance of raising | :44:49. | :44:53. | |
business confidence is to focus on austerity and whether that is | :44:53. | :44:56. | |
driving growth or not driving growth and that is the wrong path | :44:57. | :45:02. | |
to go down. Is it all the eurozone's fault? It has to be | :45:02. | :45:07. | |
partly their fault. When I talk to businesses, they say they have | :45:07. | :45:11. | |
noticed a decline in their order books from eurozone countries. It | :45:11. | :45:15. | |
will have an impact on their ability to invest in their own | :45:15. | :45:19. | |
firms and drive the job-creation we want to see here. Do you believe | :45:19. | :45:25. | |
the British Government's cannot do anything? It can only rely on | :45:25. | :45:30. | |
monetary policy. It seems to be the general direction of travel, the | :45:30. | :45:35. | |
historic low interest rates, we have still have no growth, we have | :45:35. | :45:38. | |
had some quantitative easing but still no growth. Is it really just | :45:38. | :45:47. | |
Of course not. There are many things the British government can | :45:47. | :45:54. | |
do and is doing. It is important... Driving infrastructure projects, | :45:54. | :45:59. | |
creating growth on the ground at home, creating jobs. Spending, you | :45:59. | :46:05. | |
would like to see Morse capital spending? In one area. Housing. We | :46:05. | :46:09. | |
know that every pound invested in housing generates �3, it generates | :46:09. | :46:17. | |
about four jobs. It will also help tackle the housing crisis. Do you | :46:17. | :46:20. | |
agree with Chris Huhne when he said a couple of years ago that Britain | :46:20. | :46:26. | |
should not be lashed to the mast of austerity? No. It is not a choice. | :46:26. | :46:31. | |
We have to bring the finances under control, we have one of the highest | :46:31. | :46:36. | |
debt to GDP ratios of the G7. We need to take difficult decisions. | :46:36. | :46:41. | |
We also need to do everything we can to get every infrastructure | :46:41. | :46:45. | |
project, every piece of investment out of the door and spending the | :46:45. | :46:48. | |
money the government is spending on those projects to develop jobs and | :46:48. | :46:53. | |
create growth. I think the government is getting it broadly | :46:53. | :46:57. | |
right. In terms of infrastructure spending, you would support that? | :46:57. | :47:04. | |
Yes, it has been a part of Ed Balls's 5. Plan for a while and we | :47:04. | :47:08. | |
continued to urge the government to do more. People this weekend will | :47:09. | :47:13. | |
have been horrified by the sense of hopelessness we have with the | :47:13. | :47:19. | |
Chancellor, who on the back of his shambolic budget, is now coming out | :47:19. | :47:24. | |
and saying he has finally realised the global context that our | :47:24. | :47:28. | |
economy... We were telling him about that during the global | :47:28. | :47:32. | |
economic recession. What he is failing to do is get any growth | :47:32. | :47:36. | |
into the economy, he inherited an economy that was growing and he is | :47:36. | :47:40. | |
delivering stagnation. A sense of hopelessness? That is absolutely | :47:40. | :47:45. | |
wrong. One of the things the Chancellor spoke about in autumn is | :47:45. | :47:48. | |
moving forward infrastructure projects and getting private | :47:48. | :47:53. | |
investors to invest in those. It is still in the works. There's no | :47:53. | :47:58. | |
sense of hopelessness. If you step out of the Westminster bubble and | :47:58. | :48:02. | |
you speak to people who have the money to invest, Britain is a safe | :48:02. | :48:06. | |
haven. What we've got to do is give them the confidence to invest their | :48:06. | :48:11. | |
money here. We would compromise that confidence if we go back on | :48:11. | :48:14. | |
the central judgment that the government made at the start of | :48:14. | :48:17. | |
this Parliament, that deficit- reduction, sensible deficit | :48:17. | :48:22. | |
reduction should be at the heart of the policy. Christine Lagarde gave | :48:22. | :48:27. | |
her prognosis recently of the British economy. Is there a time at | :48:27. | :48:31. | |
which, if growth hasn't improved and we are still flatlining, say by | :48:31. | :48:35. | |
the autumn, and we still have low interest rates, is there time that | :48:36. | :48:39. | |
there should be a more dramatic change in terms of what the | :48:39. | :48:43. | |
Chancellor is doing? What we can do more of, and you can always do more, | :48:44. | :48:49. | |
is more around access to finance for businesses. It has been talked | :48:49. | :48:55. | |
about, but it never happens. Credit easing, National Loan guarantee | :48:55. | :48:59. | |
Scheme, is a step in the right direction. It will allow businesses | :49:00. | :49:04. | |
to refresh existing loans, something I have called for his may | :49:04. | :49:07. | |
be the Bank of England looking to buy corporate bonds so that | :49:07. | :49:12. | |
businesses can get more cash for so they are more likely to hire and | :49:12. | :49:17. | |
invest in that plant. Some of it is being done by the Treasury. What I | :49:17. | :49:20. | |
will not be pushing for is to compromise the fundamental decision | :49:20. | :49:24. | |
that was made at the start of the Parliament that we are going to | :49:24. | :49:28. | |
make sure we can pay our debts in a sensible way while at the same time | :49:28. | :49:32. | |
protecting the vulnerable. Stay with us. We will have some | :49:32. | :49:36. | |
questions in a moment. See what kind of education you had at | :49:36. | :49:46. | |
:49:46. | :49:50. | ||
Now, what's seven times nine? How do you say "my name is Jo" in | :49:50. | :49:53. | |
French? And which poet wrote about wandering "lonely as a cloud"? If | :49:53. | :49:56. | |
you know, then well done. If not, well, Mr Gove will see you after | :49:57. | :49:59. | |
class. Because the Education Secretary thinks that children have | :49:59. | :50:02. | |
been "let down on the basics" by the current curriculum - leaving | :50:02. | :50:05. | |
the UK falling behind other nations. Is he right? Our teacher's pet, | :50:05. | :50:08. | |
young Adam Fleming, has been to find out. I've got a list of | :50:08. | :50:11. | |
complicated words, I'm sure I know the 12 times table off by heart and | :50:11. | :50:13. | |
we have a bus station full of people. Let's put the curriculum to | :50:13. | :50:23. | |
:50:23. | :50:26. | ||
the test. What is 12 times 11? 132. Close! In the Oster -- in | :50:26. | :50:30. | |
Australia, do you learn the 12 times table? Yes. How important is | :50:30. | :50:36. | |
it to learn things like that? not that important. 144. Everyone | :50:36. | :50:40. | |
knows that one! Did you know you're 12 times table by the time you left | :50:40. | :50:45. | |
school? No. In the States, do you have to learn your 12 times table? | :50:45. | :50:55. | |
:50:55. | :50:56. | ||
Yes. No. I didn't! Do you know how to spell accommodate? A, C, C, oh | :50:56. | :51:06. | |
:51:06. | :51:14. | ||
it... A, C, C, is a double M? missed out 1 M. Double M! Does | :51:14. | :51:19. | |
anyone know any poetry? I know a few Australian ones but I will not | :51:19. | :51:24. | |
recite them. Twinkle twinkle little star, I wonder what you are. Little | :51:24. | :51:33. | |
Miss Muffet. Jack Horner. Jack and Jill. I could go on! You obviously | :51:33. | :51:37. | |
know them very well. Good to see you. | :51:37. | :51:43. | |
That is reassuring! Let's have a chat with our political bright | :51:43. | :51:49. | |
sparks - Sam Gyimah, Toby Perkins, Stephen Gilbert. What is seven | :51:49. | :51:55. | |
times nine? Six D three. Very good. Toby, how do you say my name is | :51:55. | :52:02. | |
Tavy in French? Vision of hell Tavey. Who wrote I wandered lonely | :52:02. | :52:09. | |
as a cloak? I haven't the foggiest. Wordsworth. Two points to you. | :52:09. | :52:17. | |
You'll have to see Mr Gove after class. Report for detention. Maybe | :52:17. | :52:21. | |
something you know about! Is this yet another change that teachers | :52:21. | :52:25. | |
are going to resent and schools are going to resent because the biggest | :52:25. | :52:32. | |
complaint they have his constant change. Constant change is ideally | :52:32. | :52:38. | |
something you want to stay away from. If you are a responsible | :52:38. | :52:42. | |
politician, when confronted with the fact that a lot of employer | :52:42. | :52:46. | |
organisations are saying children do not have the basic mental | :52:46. | :52:49. | |
arithmetic, spelling skills that they need when they get into the | :52:49. | :52:56. | |
workforce, you need to do something. Labour said education, education, | :52:56. | :53:00. | |
education. Men and people say they expect their children to know these | :53:00. | :53:06. | |
basic things by the age of 11. Where did it fall down? There was | :53:06. | :53:09. | |
masses of progress made under the previous Labour government in | :53:09. | :53:17. | |
education. We now see 89% of schools having 30% of children | :53:17. | :53:20. | |
leaving with five good GCSEs. Only half of that achieved that at the | :53:20. | :53:25. | |
time we came into power. At the same time... It is still not very | :53:25. | :53:31. | |
high. We moved the state education for would be a tremendous amount, | :53:31. | :53:36. | |
but there's more to do. The move of the government towards introducing | :53:36. | :53:42. | |
languages earlier is a positive one. At the same time, we are hearing | :53:42. | :53:45. | |
from Michael Gove that he is listening to business, but | :53:45. | :53:50. | |
businesses are saying that the engineering diploma or, the JCB | :53:50. | :53:54. | |
Academy, is really valuable and he is downgrading that. The wary | :53:54. | :53:59. | |
people have about Michael Gove is he going to listen to the | :53:59. | :54:03. | |
educationalists or is it based on the idea -- ideology and the ideas | :54:03. | :54:09. | |
he heard from his friends down the golf club. There's no ideology | :54:09. | :54:13. | |
behind making sure that people can spell properly, can do their mental | :54:13. | :54:18. | |
arithmetic. That is just educational standards. Absolutely. | :54:18. | :54:22. | |
When you said that at the end of the Labour peerage in office, only | :54:22. | :54:26. | |
one in three people were leaving with half of the qualifications we | :54:26. | :54:30. | |
expect people to get. We need to make sure people who know best how | :54:30. | :54:34. | |
to teach, the teachers, are free to do that in a way that response... | :54:34. | :54:39. | |
Are they free? What you are seeing is a lot of educationalists saying | :54:39. | :54:43. | |
this is the right way forward, it Free's head teachers and schools to | :54:43. | :54:48. | |
respond to the situations they may face. When it is combined with the | :54:48. | :54:53. | |
pupil premium, it stands much more likely heard of delivering real | :54:53. | :54:56. | |
results. It sounds very prescriptive, all of this stuff | :54:56. | :55:01. | |
that has been laid out. Labour did the same thing with its league | :55:01. | :55:06. | |
tables and changing curriculums. This is a greater simplification | :55:06. | :55:10. | |
but Mr under Labour. It was like a Christmas tree under Labour. They | :55:10. | :55:14. | |
Hom more and more on the Christmas tree. What Michael Gove and the | :55:14. | :55:19. | |
coalition are trying to do is free schools, freak educationalists, to | :55:19. | :55:25. | |
report -- respond to the circumstances they face. The key | :55:25. | :55:30. | |
test is does it put pupil's first? No doubt, when there's any change, | :55:30. | :55:37. | |
teachers would say we don't really like this. But the key test is, is | :55:37. | :55:41. | |
it raising educational standards and is putting pupils first? This | :55:41. | :55:44. | |
is an important thing that needs to be tackled. What is going to | :55:44. | :55:50. | |
change? If the figures that Toby used, if pupils were not reaching | :55:50. | :55:55. | |
those basic standards by the age of 11, with the money that was put in | :55:55. | :55:59. | |
under Labour, and with curriculum changes, what is going to make this | :55:59. | :56:04. | |
any different? Are you expecting to see 60% of pupils knowing their 12 | :56:04. | :56:09. | |
times table and being able to read a reasonably hard book or not? | :56:09. | :56:13. | |
of the things I like about what Michael Gove is doing is the | :56:13. | :56:16. | |
recognition that raising academic standards in schools is not simply | :56:16. | :56:21. | |
a function of how much money do is poured into the system, but is | :56:21. | :56:31. | |
knowing what the priorities are. But the requirement to pass a | :56:31. | :56:36. | |
language by the time you do your GCSEs is something that Labour did | :56:36. | :56:39. | |
not put emphasis on and I'm glad we will have an emphasis on something | :56:39. | :56:43. | |
like that. If we are going to be competitive in the global economy, | :56:43. | :56:50. | |
it is important that our children leave school being competent in | :56:50. | :56:54. | |
another language. Isn't there an argument that says our education | :56:54. | :56:58. | |
system will still be behind what is needed in the workplace by the time | :56:58. | :57:02. | |
the current primary-school children leave university or school and get | :57:02. | :57:10. | |
a job? The first thing I would correct you on... We said 89% of | :57:10. | :57:15. | |
schools had 30% of children leaving at a basic level, a lot of them had | :57:15. | :57:18. | |
many more than 30%. A basic benchmark was put in place and | :57:18. | :57:22. | |
there was a dramatic improvement against a benchmark. And in terms | :57:22. | :57:28. | |
of the difference the government can make, what you learn from the | :57:28. | :57:31. | |
best education systems is it is all about the way that children learn | :57:31. | :57:36. | |
and we need less of a focus on the simple pieces of history. It does | :57:36. | :57:39. | |
sound much more prescriptive than what it was previously. They need | :57:39. | :57:45. | |
to know these facts. What we need is to help children to get a love | :57:45. | :57:49. | |
of learning and on the back of that, you can hang all sorts of other | :57:49. | :57:52. | |
things, as they do in Singapore and Hong Kong and the best education | :57:52. | :57:57. | |
systems. Do you think poetry is important? It is, but it is not for | :57:57. | :58:00. | |
Michael Gove to say you need to learn this poem of that poem. | :58:00. | :58:06. | |
Children need a rate -- rounded education. You're in favour of more | :58:06. | :58:09. | |
state interference? Find in favour of making sure that schools are | :58:09. | :58:13. | |
free to make the difference circumstances that pupils find | :58:13. | :58:17. | |
themselves in. There's a difference between the children going to | :58:17. | :58:21. | |
school in my constituency and Toby's or Sam's. Why is it | :58:21. | :58:26. | |
different? You have agreed it does about improving standards. Because | :58:26. | :58:30. | |
of the community, the background, the levels of advantage and other | :58:30. | :58:35. | |
aspects that individual communities face. The important point is that | :58:35. | :58:39. | |
we deliver money to help disadvantaged children and Wheeler | :58:39. | :58:42. |