Browse content similar to 14/06/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Afternoon, folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics. We've had Gordon, | :00:42. | :00:45. | |
we've had Tony, we've had John. We've even had Nick, in case you | :00:45. | :00:49. | |
didn't notice. Today, it's Dave's turn in the witness box at the | :00:49. | :00:51. | |
Leveson Inquiry. The Prime Minster's apparently had a day's | :00:51. | :00:54. | |
coaching from lawyers to prep for the event, which might explain why | :00:54. | :01:00. | |
so far this morning it's been pretty tedious. The PM's giving | :01:00. | :01:10. | |
evidence as I speak and will do for the rest of the day. This is what | :01:10. | :01:15. | |
he had to say. This is idea that somehow the Conservative Party and | :01:15. | :01:20. | |
News International got together and said, "You give us your support and | :01:20. | :01:28. | |
we'll waive through this merger .". It's nonsense. Back in the real | :01:28. | :01:34. | |
world, Spain's 100 billionn euro bail out is already in crisis as | :01:34. | :01:37. | |
bond yields in Madrid this morning hit an unsustainable 7%. A | :01:37. | :01:42. | |
snooper's charter or a crucial tool in the fight against crime? We'll | :01:42. | :01:45. | |
be looking at the Government's new surveillance plans. And who tickles | :01:45. | :01:54. | |
your fancy? Balls or Osborne. We let the balls decide. I wouldn't | :01:54. | :01:59. | |
trust Ed Balls as far as I can throw me and I don't like Osborne | :01:59. | :02:04. | |
either. Fairly conclusive. Happy All that in the next hour and with | :02:04. | :02:06. | |
us for the duration is the businesswoman and FT columnist, | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
Heather McGregor. People on this programme. Welcome. Now, first this | :02:10. | :02:12. | |
morning, let's talk about the crisis in Europe, because this | :02:13. | :02:15. | |
morning Spanish borrowing costs, under the euro, rose to a record | :02:15. | :02:25. | |
:02:25. | :02:28. | ||
high. That's dispute the Europeans agreed to a 100 billion euro The | :02:28. | :02:38. | |
:02:38. | :02:44. | ||
yield on benchmark 10-year bonds hit 7%.. Bail out of the banks. | :02:44. | :02:47. | |
This was true of Ireland and Portugal and in Greece as well at | :02:47. | :02:53. | |
7%. This news came as moody's cut Spain's credit rating. It's now | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
just one notch above junk. That explains why they are having to pay | :02:57. | :03:04. | |
over 7%. It seems even 100 billion bail out now, it doesn't last 24 | :03:04. | :03:09. | |
hours? No. This is the inevitable result of fiscal union, without | :03:09. | :03:13. | |
political union. Does this mean we'll get political union? This is | :03:13. | :03:16. | |
the first step towards the United States of Europe. It's not time to. | :03:16. | :03:21. | |
That may be the road we are going and people in the eurozone and even | :03:21. | :03:24. | |
our own Government even talk that that is the direction we'll have to | :03:24. | :03:29. | |
go in, but this crisis is today. have a strong European Central Bank. | :03:29. | :03:35. | |
What they will do or they'll have to do, is step in, just as Alistair | :03:35. | :03:40. | |
Darling had to save the Royal Bank of Scotland. It's completely | :03:40. | :03:44. | |
unsustainable. 7% is a huge rate for a Government to have to pay. | :03:44. | :03:50. | |
But, you say the strong mechanism, but the ECB by law is not allowed | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
to by government debt in the primary market. It can't buy the | :03:54. | :04:00. | |
bonds. It's confineed by lots of rules. Those rules can be changed | :04:00. | :04:04. | |
quite quickly. They can't be changed that quickly. Isn't it the | :04:04. | :04:07. | |
situation, that when you look at this, you look at the election | :04:07. | :04:10. | |
coming up in Greece, which could have some very strange results, you | :04:10. | :04:16. | |
see what has happened in Spain this morning, what we haven't reported | :04:16. | :04:23. | |
is the Italians had to pay over 5% for three-year bonds. It looks like | :04:23. | :04:27. | |
they are losing control. We are missing the point. The point here, | :04:27. | :04:32. | |
there but for the grace of God go we. We, we talk about austerity and | :04:32. | :04:36. | |
how we have it under control. Actually we are still spending more | :04:37. | :04:40. | |
money than the previous Government and borrowing more than we said. | :04:40. | :04:45. | |
understand that. We, at the moment, are simply going to be caught up in | :04:45. | :04:51. | |
the backwash. We are not the story. We could be one of the victims. We | :04:51. | :04:56. | |
could be collateral damage. Indeed, if it all goes bellyup. My concern | :04:56. | :05:01. | |
this morning, with the events in Greece, Spain and Italy, the | :05:01. | :05:05. | |
European elite that controls the eurozone it seems to have lost | :05:05. | :05:09. | |
control. It's almost like they are rabbits stuck in the headlight. | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
They need to wake up and smell the coffee. If you see what the | :05:12. | :05:18. | |
Americans did with Tarp, some similar scheme needs to be put in | :05:18. | :05:22. | |
place in Europe. It will come more quickly than we realise. That would | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
require a banking union. Yes. the eurozone to agree and a new | :05:26. | :05:33. | |
treaty. In the meantime, Spain burns. That will make them get off | :05:33. | :05:37. | |
their backsides a lot more quickly. May be they will be burnt by the | :05:37. | :05:46. | |
time we get there. What a horrible thought. Well, Mr Cameron is still | :05:46. | :05:48. | |
giving evidence at the Leveson Inquiry this morning. The Prime | :05:48. | :05:51. | |
Minister described the inquiry as a cathartic opportunity to sort out | :05:51. | :05:54. | |
the relationship between the press, politicians and the police. At the | :05:54. | :05:57. | |
beginning of the morning, Mr Cameron began by explaining why he | :05:57. | :05:59. | |
believed politicians haven't been successful in sorting out the | :05:59. | :06:06. | |
problems before. Because the relationship has been too close, as | :06:06. | :06:12. | |
I put it, the politicians and the press haven't spent enough time | :06:12. | :06:17. | |
discussing and sorting out the regulatory system under which the | :06:17. | :06:22. | |
press exist. We need to fix that and I thought Ed Miliband put this | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
quite well. He identified another risk, which is it's quite difficult | :06:26. | :06:31. | |
for the politician to sort out on their own the regulatory situation | :06:31. | :06:36. | |
the press face, because we are clearly - we are an interested | :06:36. | :06:41. | |
party. If we just steamed ahead and said, "We'll regulate in this or | :06:41. | :06:47. | |
that way." Then the press would have an argument to say, "Hold on, | :06:47. | :06:50. | |
you are beneficiaries and we need independence." That's part of what | :06:50. | :06:56. | |
this investigation is about. Prime Minister then went on to | :06:56. | :06:59. | |
address allegatons that there had been some sort of deal between the | :06:59. | :07:06. | |
Conservatives and the press. don't accept that. On the idea of | :07:06. | :07:08. | |
overdeals, this idea that somehow the Conservative Party and News | :07:08. | :07:13. | |
International got together and said, "If you give us your support and | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
we'll waive through this merger." We didn't even know about that at | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
that stage. The idea of that is nonsense and you've heard that from | :07:20. | :07:24. | |
lots of people in front of this inquiry. I also don't believe in | :07:24. | :07:30. | |
this theory that there was a sort of nod and a wink and some sort of | :07:30. | :07:35. | |
covert agreement. Of course, I wanted to win over newspapers and | :07:35. | :07:38. | |
other journalists, editors, priorors and broadcasters. I worked | :07:38. | :07:41. | |
hard, because I wanted to communicate what the Conservative | :07:41. | :07:43. | |
Party and my leadership could bring to the country. I made those | :07:43. | :07:53. | |
arguments, but I didn't do it on the basis of saying, "For all this, | :07:53. | :07:57. | |
I'll give you a better time on this policy." There are plenty examples | :07:57. | :08:01. | |
of policies which I believe in, that the people who are backing me, | :08:01. | :08:05. | |
didn't believe in. However, he explained why he felt he needed to | :08:05. | :08:12. | |
spend more time quoting certain parts of the media. I did | :08:12. | :08:17. | |
progressively realise over 2006 and 2007, that it's very difficult in - | :08:17. | :08:24. | |
if you are running a political part -- party and trying to create | :08:24. | :08:29. | |
momentum, it's difficult if you don't have what I would call the | :08:29. | :08:34. | |
different bits of the family behind you. You need the MPs and MEPs and | :08:34. | :08:38. | |
councillors and members and you also need the parts of the of the | :08:38. | :08:44. | |
press that should be sort of getting behind you. I had this | :08:44. | :08:49. | |
situation where some quite conservative parts of the press, I | :08:49. | :08:54. | |
wasn't getting much backing from them and I was struggling frankly a | :08:54. | :09:01. | |
bit to get the message across. So, I put in a lot of work already, but | :09:01. | :09:05. | |
maybe I'll put in some more work. He's got his work cut out. With us | :09:05. | :09:08. | |
now is the Tory Chairman of the Culture Select Committee, John | :09:08. | :09:13. | |
Whittingdale, and the former Labour Culture Secretary, Ben Bradshaw. | :09:13. | :09:17. | |
There is some juicy bits to come, I suspect. His relationship with | :09:17. | :09:20. | |
remembering brooks and so on. Have we learnt anything this morning? | :09:20. | :09:25. | |
From what I've seen, David Cameron has given the answers very much I | :09:25. | :09:29. | |
would have expected. There is no revelation? Is there anything today | :09:29. | :09:32. | |
that you didn't know before? There is nothing that I was surprised to | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
hear from him. I thought there were a couple of interesting points. | :09:35. | :09:39. | |
Firstly, in the clip you played about the transactional | :09:39. | :09:42. | |
relationship with the Murdochs, he took a deep intake of breath and | :09:42. | :09:47. | |
then said there was no deal. He said in that sentence, he wasn't | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
aware that Murdoch wanted to take full control of BSkyB, which I find | :09:51. | :09:54. | |
surprising. This is the biggest media issue out there before the | :09:54. | :09:57. | |
election and after. Secondly, he also said that he didn't think | :09:57. | :10:03. | |
there was a case, as I understand, I didn't hear the exact parts, for | :10:03. | :10:05. | |
re-examining cross-media ownership. That is a bit disappointing and a | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
different position from the one taken by Nick Clegg and Ed Miliband. | :10:09. | :10:12. | |
Are you surprised that the Prime Minister didn't realise that Rupert | :10:12. | :10:18. | |
Murdoch wanted all of BSkyB? Well, I am not surprised in that the | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
actual details of the bid he might not have been familiar with. He's | :10:22. | :10:25. | |
saying the principal he didn't even know that Mr Murdoch wanted the 60% | :10:25. | :10:30. | |
that he didn't have. I would - I follow the media. I would have | :10:30. | :10:33. | |
guessed it would be something that Rupert Murdoch would like, because | :10:33. | :10:36. | |
BSkyB generates a huge amount of money. What Ben Bradshaw is saying | :10:37. | :10:41. | |
that the Prime Minister's claiming he didn't know that Rupert Murdoch | :10:41. | :10:46. | |
wanted all of BSkyB. Is that credible? If it was after the bid | :10:46. | :10:52. | |
had actual ln been announced. this was before the bid. Then I'm | :10:52. | :10:58. | |
not surprised. No? You didn't know ironing? We all knew. No, I didn't. | :10:58. | :11:02. | |
Because it was the biggest story around. They delayed the | :11:02. | :11:05. | |
application until after the election. I knew it was likely they | :11:05. | :11:08. | |
would want it, because it's a hugely successful country that | :11:09. | :11:13. | |
generates billions of profit. The fact that the bid hadn't been there. | :11:13. | :11:18. | |
You did know? I didn't know. I would have guessed. I didn't know. | :11:18. | :11:23. | |
All right. In a sense, there's not a lot happening here. What we have | :11:23. | :11:27. | |
learned is that David Cameron set out when he became leader not to | :11:27. | :11:32. | |
woo the Murdoch press, not to do what Tony Blair and Gordon Brown | :11:32. | :11:37. | |
had done, but by summer 2007 it was sticky and he had no friends, so he | :11:37. | :11:42. | |
decided to woo them the way they had done. I think probably even to | :11:42. | :11:48. | |
have more meetings. I can't remember the exact figure, 17, 11, | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
ten and that's without the informal social gathers that the Prime | :11:51. | :11:53. | |
Minister had to acknowledge he hadn't included all of in his | :11:54. | :12:00. | |
evidence. He went back on what he intended to do. He said to me in | :12:01. | :12:05. | |
2005, he wasn't going to go the route of Blair and Brown, but then | :12:05. | :12:08. | |
he did. I think the fact that meetings took place, doesn't | :12:08. | :12:11. | |
necessarily mean he was going cap in hand in the way that perhaps | :12:11. | :12:15. | |
others have. However, I think it's a fact of life that any leader of a | :12:15. | :12:19. | |
political party has to deal with the most important media | :12:19. | :12:23. | |
organisations. Yeah. That was the biggest. Of course. In every | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
democracy in the world political leaders deal with the media and if | :12:27. | :12:29. | |
there are press proprietors as there are in America and in France | :12:29. | :12:36. | |
and Germany, you deal with them. But is it necessary to be as | :12:36. | :12:41. | |
incestious with them as ours have been? Starting with Mr Blair? | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
think the number of meetings, the frequency of meetings came as | :12:44. | :12:48. | |
something of a surprise to me. I think David Cameron himself has | :12:48. | :12:51. | |
said that actually that relationships had become too close | :12:51. | :12:54. | |
and that is one of the reasons why Lord Justice Leveson was asked to | :12:54. | :12:59. | |
conduct the inquiry. Everybody was at it. That is the truth? Yes. | :12:59. | :13:04. | |
Except the Lib Dems, because nobody cared. Yes. I have said before, as | :13:05. | :13:09. | |
Jeremy Hunt's predecessor what changed massively was that media | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
policy was subcontracted to the Murdochs, not just on this bid, but | :13:13. | :13:18. | |
free-to-air and cricket on TV and regional TV news. Every single | :13:18. | :13:21. | |
issues that James Murdoch attacked me for doing, the Tories reversed | :13:21. | :13:27. | |
when he were in Government. were the political arm of the | :13:27. | :13:33. | |
Murdoch media? Me? The Conservative Party. I'm not saying that. It's | :13:33. | :13:38. | |
the accusation that Mr Bradshaw is making. It's nonsense. It's the | :13:38. | :13:42. | |
case that generally the outlook of the Murdoch organisation, which was | :13:42. | :13:46. | |
promarket, it was deregulatory, was very similar to that of the | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
Conservative Party, so it wasn't that surprising that when we | :13:49. | :13:53. | |
adopted policies, which were much more promarket and deregulatory, | :13:53. | :13:58. | |
that those would be supported by the Murdoch organisation. As I said | :13:58. | :14:03. | |
before, but because you were in short trousers you denied knowledge, | :14:03. | :14:09. | |
the 2003 Labour communication act was the most deregulatory act in | :14:09. | :14:12. | |
modern British telecoms history and passed under your government. | :14:12. | :14:17. | |
you asked me, I've looked in it and it was a mistake. I welcome the | :14:17. | :14:21. | |
fact that Ed Miliband is talking about the need for tighter rules on | :14:21. | :14:24. | |
cross-media ownership and the amount of the media that one single | :14:24. | :14:28. | |
person it allowed to own. If you take the position that the | :14:28. | :14:34. | |
Conservatives were overfriendly, oversupportive of some Murdoch | :14:34. | :14:38. | |
media positions, that criticism would absolutely be true as well of | :14:38. | :14:43. | |
the Blair government around the year 2000? Wouldn't that be fair? | :14:43. | :14:47. | |
Except, that the takeover of BSkyB, if it had happened, was in a | :14:47. | :14:50. | |
completely different order. Every other media organisation opposed it, | :14:50. | :14:55. | |
because they thought and they worried it would mean total | :14:55. | :14:58. | |
dominance and the ability to cross- subsidise and the multimedia | :14:58. | :15:02. | |
platforms. I understand that. only reason it didn't go through | :15:02. | :15:08. | |
was because of Milly Dowler. agree with all of that. Why was it | :15:08. | :15:11. | |
possible for Rupert Murdoch to mount a bid for all of BSkyB in the | :15:11. | :15:21. | |
:15:21. | :15:23. | ||
That was possible because of the act that I think was a mistake. | :15:23. | :15:27. | |
2003 Labour act? We would have preferred that bid to the | :15:27. | :15:30. | |
Competition Commission, as would Vince Cable have done -- we would | :15:30. | :15:35. | |
have referred. The policy changed when Jeremy Hunt took over. Follow | :15:35. | :15:40. | |
the policy. If you want to see what has happened, follow the policy. | :15:40. | :15:44. | |
understand there is some text coming out with the Prime Minister | :15:44. | :15:49. | |
and Rebekah Brooks, former chief executive, have you got it there? | :15:49. | :15:53. | |
This is about the relationship and how close they came, we already | :15:53. | :15:56. | |
heard from the Prime Minister about admitting you could still have | :15:56. | :15:59. | |
friends in organisations and be able to keep enough distance to | :15:59. | :16:05. | |
make decisions impartially. This is where they started to see more of | :16:05. | :16:13. | |
each other because the Brooks family moved nearby. She has moved | :16:13. | :16:21. | |
into Charlie Brooks' s house, it is near where we live, there is talks | :16:21. | :16:24. | |
about country suppers where they discussed, yes, but seriously, this | :16:24. | :16:29. | |
is a text. I understand the issue with the Times, let's discuss over | :16:29. | :16:34. | |
country supper soon. On the party, it was because I had asked a number | :16:34. | :16:39. | |
of people to post the endorsement. Sam was wonderful... It is all too | :16:39. | :16:45. | |
cosy, isn't it? Cosy country suppers. The fact that the Prime | :16:45. | :16:48. | |
Minister is friends with a leading executive from News International | :16:48. | :16:52. | |
is not a matter of shame in his cell. The fact that he has country | :16:52. | :16:55. | |
suppers seems perfectly understandable. When this media | :16:55. | :16:59. | |
organisation is lobbying like mad to get permission for the biggest | :16:59. | :17:04. | |
media takeover in British history? That is a separate matter which was | :17:04. | :17:09. | |
clearly not something he suggested discussing over a country supper. | :17:09. | :17:13. | |
We know it was discussed over a country Christmas supper. We know | :17:14. | :17:17. | |
that the subject was raised. David Cameron was clear that it was a | :17:17. | :17:20. | |
matter which was quasi judicial in the hands of the Business Secretary | :17:20. | :17:24. | |
and was out of his control. The fact that David Cameron was friends | :17:25. | :17:29. | |
with Rebekah Brooks, as was Gordon Brown for a time, as was Tony Blair, | :17:29. | :17:37. | |
is not in itself something which would immediately -- which we | :17:37. | :17:41. | |
should immediately criticised them for. Is it appropriate for that | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
level of access? Robert Jay has read out a text message from | :17:45. | :17:50. | |
Rebekah Brooks, 2009, pre- election, I am so rooting for you tomorrow, | :17:51. | :17:55. | |
not just as a personal friend but because professionally, we are both | :17:55. | :17:58. | |
in this together. It does give a sense that they were working on the | :17:58. | :18:03. | |
same side with the same aims. fact that Rebekah Brooks and a | :18:03. | :18:05. | |
newspapers were backing the Conservative Party in the last | :18:05. | :18:10. | |
election is on the record. issue is that the media group | :18:10. | :18:15. | |
backing the party is one thing, but a media group backing your party, | :18:15. | :18:21. | |
and once a major business favour, is something entirely different. -- | :18:21. | :18:26. | |
and wants. Any sensible politician would surely keep their distance. | :18:26. | :18:32. | |
It only becomes wrong if the two island. The policy changed. | :18:32. | :18:39. | |
policy did not change. -- becomes wrong if the two are linked. | :18:39. | :18:41. | |
recommendation was to refer the bid to the Competition Commission, he | :18:41. | :18:46. | |
did not do it. Jeremy Hunt bent over backwards to do James | :18:46. | :18:50. | |
Murdoch's bidding in not referring it. It would have delayed the bid | :18:50. | :18:56. | |
by a year and cost News Corp millions. Jeremy Hunt did that. | :18:56. | :18:59. | |
Jeremy Hunt was required by the law when he received that | :18:59. | :19:03. | |
recommendation, to have a period which alternative suggestions could | :19:03. | :19:09. | |
be made. During which a special adviser provided a back channel. | :19:09. | :19:14. | |
followed the code to the letter. David Cameron: I think it means we | :19:14. | :19:20. | |
were friends, we were going to be pushing the same political agenda. | :19:20. | :19:24. | |
I suspect most of our viewers watching think that both of their | :19:24. | :19:27. | |
parties got far too close to the Murdoch organisation? I think most | :19:27. | :19:32. | |
of the viewers thought that anyway. They may not have known the extent. | :19:32. | :19:37. | |
They may not. I am not sure we needed such a massive inquiry at | :19:37. | :19:42. | |
such a massive public expense, in order to get to the extent of it. I | :19:42. | :19:45. | |
have no idea why the Leveson inquiry was set up. I have long | :19:46. | :19:49. | |
since forgotten. All I believe now is that he must have set it up as | :19:49. | :19:56. | |
some kind of distracting activity. That didn't work, did it? That is a | :19:56. | :20:01. | |
great political judgment! Some sort of cabaret to fill up newspaper | :20:01. | :20:05. | |
columns and time, in order to get away from the real problem, that we | :20:05. | :20:08. | |
in business believe that the government is not pursuing an | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
agenda for growth. That is what I want to see. Frankly, if I wanted | :20:12. | :20:17. | |
this kind of distracting activity, I would load fridge manger on to my | :20:17. | :20:27. | |
:20:27. | :20:34. | ||
I remind you that Spanish bond yields hit 7%. Thank you. | :20:34. | :20:38. | |
We are going to do more of this! Things got heated in the Commons in | :20:38. | :20:42. | |
the debate over Jeremy Hunt's handling of the BSkyB. Mr Hunt | :20:42. | :20:45. | |
survive the ordeal but it was all hands on deck for the Conservative | :20:45. | :20:50. | |
Party, he even called back one MP from his honeymoon to ensure they | :20:50. | :21:00. | |
:21:00. | :21:01. | ||
Either he didn't know what he was doing when his special adviser was | :21:01. | :21:06. | |
overstepping the mark, and that was a breach of the code, or as people | :21:06. | :21:10. | |
think more likely, he did know what he was doing when Adam Smith was | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
overstepping the mark, and that, too, would have been a breach of | :21:14. | :21:19. | |
the code. Whichever way you look at it, there has been a clear breach | :21:19. | :21:24. | |
of the ministerial code. First of all, the disgraceful allegation | :21:24. | :21:29. | |
that I deliberately misled Parliament. In response to a | :21:29. | :21:33. | |
question... Well, do you want to hear what I'm going to say about it, | :21:33. | :21:40. | |
because you call to the debate. If you want to hear the facts... In | :21:40. | :21:47. | |
response to a question on 3rd March 2011, I stated that I had published | :21:47. | :21:51. | |
correspondence between myself and News Corp. In answer to those | :21:51. | :21:55. | |
questions, I referred back to that statement. If there was any | :21:55. | :21:57. | |
misunderstanding about the extent to which I was publishing | :21:57. | :22:02. | |
correspondents, it was addressed as long ago as last September. What | :22:02. | :22:05. | |
the minister just referred to was his reply on 7th September when he | :22:05. | :22:09. | |
said it was for reasons for cost he was not able to provide anything | :22:10. | :22:14. | |
more. How much would it have cost him to remember he had sent a memo | :22:14. | :22:17. | |
to the Prime Minister on the matter, or to have checked his own mobile | :22:17. | :22:21. | |
phone for the text messages he sent to James Murdoch. He has lied to | :22:21. | :22:31. | |
:22:31. | :22:33. | ||
I am not sure if everyone correctly heard the allegation that was made | :22:33. | :22:37. | |
by the honourable member. As I understood it, he accused Mike | :22:37. | :22:41. | |
right honourable friend of lying to Parliament. My understanding was | :22:41. | :22:47. | |
that that was unparliamentary language which should be withdrawn. | :22:47. | :22:55. | |
What I say to the... Members can shout as loudly or as long as they | :22:55. | :23:00. | |
like, and it doesn't make any sense, it won't make any difference. I am | :23:00. | :23:05. | |
simply saying that on advice that I have taken, nothing disorderly has | :23:05. | :23:10. | |
occurred. It may be orderly to accuse my right honourable friend | :23:10. | :23:14. | |
of being a liar, would it be orderly to accuse the front bench | :23:14. | :23:20. | |
opposite of being the most sanctimonious, hypocritical humbug | :23:20. | :23:25. | |
sin recent political memory. their credit, the Liberal Democrats | :23:25. | :23:28. | |
have decided they cannot go along with the Prime Minister's cynical | :23:28. | :23:33. | |
charade, good for them. But Mr Speaker, I struggled to see why | :23:33. | :23:36. | |
they should not join us in the lobby for the vote tonight. They | :23:36. | :23:41. | |
should be in the lobby with us, upholding the integrity of the | :23:41. | :23:45. | |
ministerial code. The house is well aware that this is not a decision | :23:45. | :23:49. | |
for the house. It is a decision for the Prime Minister. He has made | :23:49. | :23:57. | |
that decision. This is, therefore, a political ruse by the Labour | :23:57. | :24:06. | |
Party, whose behaviour on these issues is frankly appalling. | :24:06. | :24:09. | |
Well, as you may have realised, the Lib Dems did not back Labour's call | :24:10. | :24:13. | |
for an inquiry into Jeremy Hunt's behaviour, they abstained. The | :24:13. | :24:17. | |
government still had enough to win the vote with a majority of 38. We | :24:17. | :24:20. | |
are joined by one of the MPs you saw in the film, the Liberal | :24:21. | :24:24. | |
Democrat Don Foster, who speaks for the party on matters cultural. | :24:24. | :24:30. | |
Let's read -- beat about the thing which led to uproar in the House, | :24:30. | :24:33. | |
Labour's Chris Bryant accusing Jeremy Hunt of lying -- speak about. | :24:33. | :24:38. | |
Was it fair that it was allowed by Speaker Bercow? My view is not, I | :24:38. | :24:41. | |
think it brings the house into disrepute to have that sort of | :24:41. | :24:44. | |
language. I understand why the Speaker said what he said, he said | :24:44. | :24:48. | |
he had had some advice that it was going to be OK in those particular | :24:48. | :24:52. | |
circumstances. I don't want it to happen. It is almost irrelevant. | :24:52. | :24:56. | |
The substance of the debate was a situation where Liberal Democrats | :24:56. | :25:00. | |
were very clear we were not going to support the Prime Minister's | :25:00. | :25:06. | |
decision not to refer Jeremy Hunt to the independent adviser. We | :25:06. | :25:11. | |
believe, and questions remain to be answered, that the public want | :25:11. | :25:15. | |
answers to. You have already made clear that you're happy with the | :25:15. | :25:19. | |
way Jeremy Hunt dealt with the bid. Absolutely right. Is it that you | :25:19. | :25:22. | |
are unhappy with the way he handled, or perhaps should have taken more | :25:22. | :25:26. | |
responsibility for the behaviour of his special adviser? Or is it the | :25:26. | :25:29. | |
accusation that he misled Parliament? I think all of the | :25:29. | :25:32. | |
questions that were being raised from the Labour benches were | :25:32. | :25:36. | |
legitimate questions to raise, and they are the ones that I think we, | :25:36. | :25:41. | |
and the public, one to have wants us to. But not just because the | :25:41. | :25:45. | |
Prime Minister says I am satisfied, the public wants to have the | :25:45. | :25:49. | |
independent adviser look at the issue so it can have confidence in | :25:49. | :25:54. | |
the outcome. How angry are your colleagues with first novel, the | :25:54. | :25:59. | |
Liberal Democrats and Speaker Bercow? -- first of all. We are a | :25:59. | :26:02. | |
bit disappointed in the Liberal Democrats. I think Jeremy Hunt give | :26:02. | :26:05. | |
a good account and answered the questions. We expect in a coalition | :26:05. | :26:09. | |
that all members should reach a collective view and support it. | :26:09. | :26:13. | |
This was not an issue of collective responsibility. The Prime Minister | :26:13. | :26:18. | |
did not even consult the Deputy Prime Minister, Nick Clegg, before | :26:18. | :26:22. | |
he made his announcement. So it wasn't collective... This is not a | :26:22. | :26:26. | |
collective decision-making so there is no collective responsibility. | :26:26. | :26:29. | |
terms of the substance, that is not really what Liberal Democrats were | :26:29. | :26:33. | |
unhappy with. What they are unhappy about is that David Cameron did not | :26:33. | :26:37. | |
consult the Liberal Democrats in terms of the decision? Nick Clegg | :26:37. | :26:41. | |
made absolutely clear a long time ago that if questions remained | :26:41. | :26:44. | |
following Jeremy Hunt's appearance at Leveson, those question should | :26:44. | :26:48. | |
be fully addressed. And if they were about the ministerial code, | :26:48. | :26:52. | |
that should have been done by the independent adviser. That is what | :26:52. | :26:55. | |
the Prime Minister decided not to do. Nick Clegg was clear he doesn't | :26:55. | :26:59. | |
endorse that decision as Prime Minister. You got what you deserve? | :26:59. | :27:03. | |
In my view in a coalition, if the Prime Minister reaches a decision, | :27:03. | :27:07. | |
we expect the supporters of the government to back that decision. I | :27:07. | :27:11. | |
do think that there is some disappointment and some anger. And | :27:11. | :27:16. | |
it may have reverberations for some of the folks to come. There is a | :27:16. | :27:19. | |
lot of unhappiness about Lords reform and it may be that my | :27:20. | :27:23. | |
colleagues think, perhaps they may feel it is something they don't | :27:23. | :27:28. | |
have the same compulsion to vote for. Have you spoken to those who | :27:28. | :27:35. | |
have expressed that view? We have. House of Lords reform was in the | :27:35. | :27:39. | |
Conservative manifesto and Liberal Democrat manifesto. It is part of | :27:39. | :27:42. | |
the agreement that we address this issue and is totally separate from | :27:42. | :27:46. | |
an issue that was a decision made entirely by the Prime Minister, not | :27:46. | :27:49. | |
even with consultation with the Deputy Prime Minister. You have now | :27:49. | :27:53. | |
been warned, are you worried about the repercussions that may now make | :27:53. | :27:58. | |
policy decisions difficult? Frankly, I am not. Because when the | :27:58. | :28:02. | |
Conservative Party members sit down and reflect on this, they will | :28:02. | :28:05. | |
realise that two opposing political parties came together in a | :28:05. | :28:09. | |
coalition to sort out the economic mess. We didn't say we were going | :28:09. | :28:12. | |
to love each other through the process but we will get on and work | :28:12. | :28:16. | |
together to deal with the issues that we agreed to deal with. This | :28:16. | :28:19. | |
isn't making coalition politics looking good, if we now have | :28:19. | :28:23. | |
threats from Tory MPs, saying that we may not back you over policies | :28:23. | :28:26. | |
that were agreed in the manifesto? It has always been the case that | :28:26. | :28:31. | |
there are issues which still divide us. We worked together on the big | :28:31. | :28:36. | |
issues but there will always be occasions where there will put | :28:36. | :28:41. | |
people on one side of the fence or the other who are unhappy with the | :28:41. | :28:46. | |
decision reached. Can I ask you about one issue of substance? | :28:46. | :28:50. | |
Jeremy Hunt saying I have publish all the documents. What do you take | :28:50. | :28:54. | |
that to mean? I think what he made clear was that he published all the | :28:54. | :28:58. | |
documents which he felt were relevant at the time. That isn't | :28:58. | :29:02. | |
what he said. And which he was aware of. Part of the problem was | :29:02. | :29:06. | |
the extent of the Communication taking place between the special | :29:06. | :29:09. | |
adviser and News Corp was not something he was aware of, and it | :29:09. | :29:14. | |
became apparent later. He did in the memo of his own expressing | :29:14. | :29:19. | |
concern about Vince Cable's handling of the BSkyB bid. That was | :29:19. | :29:24. | |
before he was given responsibility. He was specifically asked a | :29:24. | :29:28. | |
question about that in the House of Commons. He denied he had made | :29:28. | :29:33. | |
representations when Vince Cable had responsibility. We know that is | :29:33. | :29:37. | |
not true because he had written a strongly worded memo to the Prime | :29:37. | :29:43. | |
Minister. The second issue was the one you drew attention to, that he | :29:43. | :29:49. | |
claimed he had published the communications. He admitted he may | :29:49. | :29:52. | |
have inadvertently misled Parliament on those counts. If that | :29:52. | :29:56. | |
is the case, you have be come back and apologised and acknowledge it, | :29:56. | :30:00. | |
as soon as you realise, and he didn't. | :30:00. | :30:04. | |
We are about to move on to some other issues. We welcome the was | :30:04. | :30:08. | |
from Scotland, who have been watching First Minister's Questions | :30:08. | :30:12. | |
live from Holy Rood. You're now with The Daily Politics in London. | :30:12. | :30:17. | |
We get more details of Rebekah Brooks's text messages to David | :30:17. | :30:22. | |
Cameron, before his conference breach in 2009. I am so rooting for | :30:22. | :30:27. | |
you tomorrow -- conference speech. Not just as proud friend but | :30:27. | :30:30. | |
because professionally, we are definitely in this together. Speech | :30:30. | :30:37. | |
of your life, yes he can. She was chief executive of News | :30:37. | :30:40. | |
International at the time. I don't think we will be hearing we are all | :30:40. | :30:43. | |
in this together again from the Prime Minister very soon. Is Big | :30:43. | :30:46. | |
Brother watching you? How would you feel about the police and | :30:46. | :30:49. | |
intelligence services having access to the details of your internet | :30:49. | :30:56. | |
use? For the record, I thank the Cat Protection League website very | :30:56. | :30:59. | |
informative indeed -- I find. There are proposals which the government | :30:59. | :31:09. | |
:31:09. | :31:09. | ||
says they will help in the fight Local authorities wouldn't have the | :31:09. | :31:14. | |
new powers. The police could track e-mails, websites and mobiles. | :31:14. | :31:17. | |
They'll be able to reveal such details as the time of | :31:17. | :31:21. | |
communications, sender, recipient and location. Basically, the when, | :31:21. | :31:25. | |
who and where of their enquiries. It will remain the case they will | :31:25. | :31:33. | |
not be allowed to access the content of e-mails, texts and | :31:33. | :31:36. | |
mobiles without a warrant from the Home Secretary. This is all about | :31:36. | :31:40. | |
making sure that the police and security services can continue to | :31:40. | :31:44. | |
catch criminals and stop terrorists. At the moment, what they are able | :31:44. | :31:49. | |
to do is get access to what is called communications data, and | :31:49. | :31:53. | |
that's The Who, when and where of telephone calls. They have access | :31:53. | :31:58. | |
to that. The police have used it in 95% of serious organised crime | :31:58. | :32:01. | |
investigations and security services have used it in every | :32:02. | :32:04. | |
counter-terrorism investigation and this is used by the police as | :32:04. | :32:09. | |
evidence to prosecute criminals and put them behind bars. In the new | :32:10. | :32:13. | |
world, people communicate differently. They are no longer | :32:14. | :32:18. | |
using mobiles, but the internet, so we want to update the ability of | :32:18. | :32:22. | |
the services to have access to the data. It's not about the content or | :32:22. | :32:26. | |
reading people's e-mails or listening to their calls. This is | :32:26. | :32:30. | |
purely about the communications, which is the information about who, | :32:30. | :32:34. | |
when and where made the communications and as I say, it's | :32:34. | :32:37. | |
about ensuring we can catch criminals and stop terrorists. | :32:37. | :32:42. | |
was the Home Secretary. We are joined by one of her many ministers, | :32:42. | :32:44. | |
James Brokenshire and the Conservative MP, David Davis, who | :32:44. | :32:49. | |
is not one of her ministers. Welcome to both you. The Home | :32:49. | :32:54. | |
Secretary says she needs this to fight crime. She is wrong. Look, if | :32:54. | :32:58. | |
you are a burglar and you are captured and convicted on the basis | :32:58. | :33:01. | |
of evidence found in his house of stolen materials, that happens | :33:01. | :33:06. | |
quite a lot, it doesn't mean the next door neighbour should have his | :33:06. | :33:10. | |
house searched without a warrant, which is the logic of this. There | :33:10. | :33:16. | |
are of course, important times when the State needs access to where you | :33:16. | :33:20. | |
are, what your e-mails are to and from, but it's really important | :33:20. | :33:23. | |
they should get a judge to issue the warrant, as he would to search | :33:23. | :33:27. | |
a house. Why don't you? Well, to take David's point on, this is | :33:28. | :33:31. | |
actually about nuts and bolts policing, on the ensuring that the | :33:31. | :33:35. | |
police are able to know who is communicating with whom. As they do | :33:35. | :33:41. | |
at the moment, that's with mobiles and fixed lines and also on some of | :33:41. | :33:46. | |
the internet traffic. That is not with warrants at the moment. If you | :33:46. | :33:49. | |
are seeking to gain the information on what you are saying yes, that is | :33:49. | :33:53. | |
warranted, but there is oversight with the interception of | :33:53. | :33:56. | |
communications and ensuring that any decisions are made, they are | :33:56. | :34:01. | |
made at a level to give that. you were to tap my phone, do you | :34:01. | :34:06. | |
need a warrant? If it's a wire, listening, yes, it is, because of | :34:06. | :34:09. | |
the intrusive nature. If you want to know where I'm going on the | :34:09. | :34:13. | |
internet, shouldn't you need a warrant? It's a different level of | :34:13. | :34:18. | |
intrusion and therefore it is a separate system that we have for | :34:18. | :34:21. | |
this, with a senior officer making that decision and it has to be | :34:21. | :34:26. | |
based on the fact that it's an investigation of crime, it to be | :34:26. | :34:30. | |
for the protection of life and that system itself is overseen by a | :34:30. | :34:33. | |
Commissioner, so it's not that there aren't safeguards, there are. | :34:33. | :34:39. | |
It's a different type of system. You have one police officer giving | :34:39. | :34:42. | |
permission to another police officer and that's not satisfying. | :34:42. | :34:45. | |
How many commissioners are there? One of the things that we are | :34:45. | :34:50. | |
looking at, as part of the Bill, is the strength of that. The point of | :34:50. | :34:56. | |
this question is this - if 2010, the last year for which there were | :34:56. | :35:02. | |
numbers, there were 5 50,000 accesss. That's a lot of feed files | :35:02. | :35:04. | |
and gangsters, but also it's almost impossible to oversee something | :35:04. | :35:08. | |
like that and it's so big, because there isn't a restraint, there | :35:08. | :35:14. | |
isn't a judge saying, "I'm sorry, no that's too far. It's not | :35:14. | :35:20. | |
relevant." But the point that David makes and the number was 550,000 | :35:20. | :35:25. | |
last year, but that isn't individuals. If you look at an | :35:25. | :35:30. | |
inquiry it may generate 1,000 requests. There are 18 million | :35:30. | :35:33. | |
individual phone subscriptions and around 129 billion texts each year, | :35:33. | :35:38. | |
so what we are saying is as we live our lives online increasingly, so | :35:38. | :35:41. | |
do the criminals and therefore Aztec knollgy changes we need to | :35:42. | :35:48. | |
reflect that in the tools available to the police to be able to police. | :35:48. | :35:54. | |
The FBI in a country six times as big of us have 14,000 equivalent | :35:54. | :35:59. | |
applications in the same year. That is how much we overuse this already. | :35:59. | :36:03. | |
Secondly, other countries, Germany, the Czech Republic, they tried to | :36:03. | :36:06. | |
introduce even the old system, before e-mails and it was struck | :36:06. | :36:09. | |
down by their courts, because it was such an intrusion on privacy. | :36:09. | :36:15. | |
Where you are, who you are calling, and in fact to a very large extent | :36:15. | :36:21. | |
where you are all day is given. It's excessive. It shouldn't be | :36:21. | :36:26. | |
that the State should interfere and intrude., as was said by David | :36:26. | :36:29. | |
Cameron and the Shadow Home Secretary and the Shadow Attorney | :36:29. | :36:32. | |
General when this was Government policy under Labour and we were the | :36:32. | :36:40. | |
opposition. Firstly, what guarantee do I have that you are not reading | :36:40. | :36:48. | |
my e-mail? Well, a number of things. The law itself provides that under | :36:48. | :36:51. | |
our draft bill that nothing constitutes that interception. That | :36:51. | :36:54. | |
would be an offence and nothing we are doing in the proposals | :36:54. | :36:58. | |
published today do that. But the government can break the law. So | :36:58. | :37:02. | |
what is the guarantee? If you have access to my e-mails, so that you | :37:02. | :37:06. | |
know where I'm sending and to whom I'm sending, how can I be sure you | :37:06. | :37:11. | |
are not reading it as well? Well, let me just clarify on the fact | :37:11. | :37:14. | |
that it isn't Government that would be holding that information. It | :37:14. | :37:18. | |
would be the individual phone and communications providers. Therefore, | :37:18. | :37:24. | |
there are safeguards in place around that, that the data is | :37:24. | :37:27. | |
protected under, to ensure that's held securely and separately | :37:27. | :37:31. | |
requests have to comply and be based on the fact it's solving | :37:31. | :37:37. | |
crime and protecting life. Let me get this right, my safeguard is | :37:37. | :37:42. | |
Google? No, it's not. You just said it was. That's right. The safeguard | :37:42. | :37:45. | |
is the law that is there, and the commissioners that operate around | :37:45. | :37:51. | |
this and the fact that they will be doing further audits and | :37:51. | :37:54. | |
examinations of that work. Ultimately if you break the law, | :37:54. | :37:59. | |
it's criminal. To misuse that information. You can send someone | :37:59. | :38:07. | |
to prison. Secondly, could I now give you a list of browsers on the | :38:07. | :38:11. | |
internet which I'm sure most criminals will get to, which will | :38:11. | :38:14. | |
scramble my I SP address and make it impossible for you to find out | :38:14. | :38:21. | |
who I am and who I'm sending it to or should I give you a range of | :38:21. | :38:26. | |
apps called VPNs, which you can't break? Actually, Andrew, you make | :38:26. | :38:30. | |
the case very clearly as to why the Government needs to change. All the | :38:30. | :38:37. | |
bad guys will use this. The point is that 95% of the organised crime | :38:37. | :38:41. | |
cases have a communications data element there. That capacity is | :38:41. | :38:47. | |
there. Let's pick one, 7/7, and we are talking about terrorism. They | :38:47. | :38:53. | |
used phones. Of course, we can track down where they were, but | :38:53. | :38:57. | |
they were pre-paid and cash bought. The ones that drug dealers use. | :38:57. | :39:03. | |
can do the same with e-mails. You hack somebody's WiFi or go to a | :39:03. | :39:08. | |
cafe and use a created e-mail identity. No contact. The ways | :39:08. | :39:13. | |
around this are Legion. The people who will be caught by this are the | :39:13. | :39:19. | |
incompetent and innocent. I'll give you the final word, and what do you | :39:19. | :39:27. | |
make of this? It's like looking at Jeremy mustn't on the previous clip. | :39:27. | :39:32. | |
That bad? I think it's the greatest privilege. I grew up believing it | :39:32. | :39:35. | |
was the greatest privilege to represent their country in | :39:35. | :39:37. | |
Parliament and their constituents in Parliament and I look at things | :39:37. | :39:42. | |
like that and I think, they live in a parallel universe. I'm out there | :39:42. | :39:46. | |
sweating to pieces, paying 50% tax and creating jobs, which is more | :39:46. | :39:50. | |
than anybody in the chamber has done and most of them haven't had a | :39:50. | :39:55. | |
commercial job to be honest, including the Prime Minister. | :39:55. | :40:01. | |
that bit, but I'm at a loss as to what this has to do with e-mails. | :40:01. | :40:04. | |
You've lost me. Straight to the Prime Minister on e-mails. I bet | :40:04. | :40:09. | |
you he changes his mind about this kind of thing when he reads acres | :40:09. | :40:14. | |
of print about his texts with Rebekah Brooks. It's possible. | :40:15. | :40:20. | |
are they there. He may say, of course, "If all mine have been out | :40:20. | :40:25. | |
there, so can injures." Do we not have better things to do with our | :40:25. | :40:30. | |
time in all seriousness? The Leveson and this thing, we need to | :40:30. | :40:33. | |
pursue an agenda for jobs and growth and none of that seems to me | :40:33. | :40:37. | |
to be happening. The final word to you. I appreciate it. If you | :40:38. | :40:42. | |
promise not to read my e-mails. are not reading those. Ultimately. | :40:42. | :40:47. | |
Do you promise? I do personally, I won't be reading your e-mails. | :40:47. | :40:52. | |
You've been privatised into somebody else? I'm only teasing you. | :40:53. | :40:57. | |
Make the final point. This does matter and I absolutely hear the | :40:57. | :41:01. | |
points about liberty and freedom, that's why many draft that we | :41:01. | :41:04. | |
published today has significant safeguards in it, but ultimately, | :41:04. | :41:07. | |
doing nothing is not an option, because the ability for the police | :41:07. | :41:11. | |
to do the ordinary stuff about bringing bad guys to justice will | :41:11. | :41:16. | |
be eroded unless we take action. Where are we in the process on | :41:16. | :41:25. | |
this? A long way to go? Briefly. Draft published today. Oversight by | :41:25. | :41:28. | |
a joint committee of the House of Commons and the House of Lords. | :41:28. | :41:32. | |
That is expected to report back at the end of the year. Are the | :41:32. | :41:42. | |
:41:42. | :41:45. | ||
Scottish viewers covered by this? It's a UK-wide. It's a UK-wide | :41:45. | :41:47. | |
publication. Thank you very much. How to solve youth unemployment. | :41:47. | :41:53. | |
It's something the Government's keen to tackle. A report from the | :41:53. | :41:58. | |
CBI shows that many firms think school and colleague leavers lack | :41:58. | :42:02. | |
the skills. Our guest runs a scheme and we have been to see it in | :42:02. | :42:12. | |
:42:12. | :42:15. | ||
action. A college, some students and a direct link to business. | :42:15. | :42:21. | |
Heather. This course at Oldham College is one of 130 so-called | :42:22. | :42:25. | |
career academies around the country to teach people the skills they | :42:25. | :42:31. | |
need. You did something really well there, which is that you shook my | :42:31. | :42:36. | |
hand properly. Everybody looked me in the eye. Each student gets to to | :42:36. | :42:40. | |
an internship with a local business and some will get jobs out of it. | :42:40. | :42:43. | |
For 19-year-old Lynne it's opened the door to higher education, | :42:43. | :42:48. | |
something no-one in her family's ever done. If I went to this class | :42:48. | :42:52. | |
I didn't think I would go to university. I thought to finish the | :42:52. | :42:57. | |
course and do something extra or get a job, but I thought why not? | :42:57. | :43:01. | |
You go to university and get the experience and now I have the work | :43:01. | :43:06. | |
experience, so there's no way that when I get out of uniy I go and get | :43:06. | :43:14. | |
a job, because I will have the experience. This is one of the | :43:14. | :43:16. | |
hardest-hit areas. Oldham has some of the highest numbers across the | :43:17. | :43:21. | |
country of young people claiming jobseeker's allowance. Outside this | :43:21. | :43:27. | |
job centre, I meet one young bricklayer who has been out of work. | :43:27. | :43:31. | |
I'm not looking for work as much, because I see it as a waste of time, | :43:31. | :43:35. | |
but the work is through agencies, where they could phone you one day | :43:35. | :43:39. | |
and then you are not in for four. It's nothing proper. It's not | :43:39. | :43:44. | |
strong how it used to be. They can get rid of you. More than 2.5 | :43:44. | :43:47. | |
million people are out of work in the first three months of this year. | :43:47. | :43:51. | |
Just over one million were young people. The north-west was the | :43:51. | :43:57. | |
region with the highest percentage of 16 to 24-year-olds out of work. | :43:57. | :44:03. | |
But this Oldham factory has 15 vabg siz it can't fill. -- vacancies it | :44:03. | :44:10. | |
can't fill. She puts in a number of different notes. It takes it into | :44:10. | :44:15. | |
the machine. The finance director, who is mentoring this student, set | :44:15. | :44:18. | |
the Government -- said the Government has to work with | :44:18. | :44:22. | |
businesses. It's important to talk to the employers and understanding | :44:22. | :44:26. | |
the employers' needs and making sure that the colleges and | :44:26. | :44:30. | |
universities deliver what the employers really want. Would that | :44:30. | :44:36. | |
do enough to get young people into jobs? The minister for employment, | :44:36. | :44:41. | |
Chris Grayling is with us now. Governments have tried many things | :44:41. | :44:44. | |
to deal with unemployment and particularly youth unemployment. | :44:44. | :44:47. | |
Why will the Government's latest scheme work better than the others | :44:47. | :44:57. | |
:44:57. | :44:58. | ||
Two parts, the first is through the work programme. We have stepped | :44:58. | :45:02. | |
back and created a black box approach. We are saying to the | :45:02. | :45:07. | |
organisations involved, you do what works, we won't seek to set | :45:07. | :45:10. | |
parameters but will only pay you when you are successful. The aim is | :45:10. | :45:14. | |
to allow the most successful approaches to flourish. Alongside | :45:14. | :45:19. | |
that what we are trying to do, and what the project we have seen it | :45:19. | :45:22. | |
does so well, is we are trying to get people into the workplace | :45:22. | :45:26. | |
through our work experience scheme and the support we are providing | :45:26. | :45:29. | |
with these contracts. Very often a person coming out of university | :45:29. | :45:31. | |
without previous experience is up against someone five or six years | :45:32. | :45:35. | |
older, has come from another country, maybe more experienced and | :45:35. | :45:38. | |
more qualified and the employer is tempted to go for the more | :45:38. | :45:42. | |
experienced person. If we can get them into the workplace, the | :45:42. | :45:45. | |
employer starts to build a workplace and says, they are pretty | :45:45. | :45:52. | |
good, I will keep them. -- starts to build eight impression. | :45:52. | :45:57. | |
problem might be that the majority of the jobs were created in the | :45:57. | :45:59. | |
public sector. The jobs that are being created under new government | :45:59. | :46:06. | |
schemes, are the permanent jobs? Are they full-time jobs? We are not | :46:06. | :46:09. | |
trying to create artificial jobs. What is the evidence that it will | :46:09. | :46:14. | |
work? My goal, if you look at a young person coming out of school, | :46:14. | :46:18. | |
college or university, are we better off putting them in a six- | :46:18. | :46:21. | |
month placement which has nothing beyond that, in a part of the | :46:21. | :46:25. | |
economy where there isn't going to be a lot of growth in the future, | :46:25. | :46:29. | |
all the better trying to get them into a private sector employer, | :46:29. | :46:32. | |
with an apprenticeship, in the hope it builds a career for them. What | :46:32. | :46:37. | |
is your view on that? I applaud the idea that people should have an | :46:37. | :46:40. | |
opportunity to go into the workplace and the career academy | :46:40. | :46:47. | |
scheme, which I chair in the UK, that is what we set out to do. | :46:47. | :46:52. | |
People come into our scheme and we help them by giving them a mentor | :46:52. | :46:55. | |
and a six week paid employment opportunity. That is the important | :46:55. | :47:00. | |
bit, it is paid. The fact that it is paid is very important. The | :47:00. | :47:03. | |
people on the whole are in parts of the country where it is very | :47:03. | :47:08. | |
difficult. More importantly, it is being there, on their CV, when they | :47:08. | :47:11. | |
leave school or university, they have already been in the workplace. | :47:11. | :47:15. | |
We find that people become more employable and raise their | :47:15. | :47:20. | |
aspirations. Do they get jobs? do. We have put 4,000 people | :47:20. | :47:24. | |
through the skin, they -- we have spent something like �8 million | :47:24. | :47:28. | |
with almost no government help whatsoever. -- through the scheme. | :47:28. | :47:33. | |
We have done all this, I have never been invited into the DWP to talk | :47:33. | :47:37. | |
about the scheme. Very kindly the minister said before we came on air | :47:37. | :47:41. | |
that he would come and visit us, and this -- we are delighted. | :47:41. | :47:45. | |
this is working, surely this is the model you should be looking at, | :47:45. | :47:50. | |
even if you want to say you want to step back. With all due respect, it | :47:50. | :47:58. | |
Stop we pay for success but we don't so, you must do it this way. | :47:58. | :48:02. | |
If an organisation has a good way of supporting people back to work, | :48:02. | :48:08. | |
the door is open to help young people get back into the workplace. | :48:08. | :48:11. | |
Why is unemployment so high for young people? One of the things | :48:11. | :48:15. | |
that tends not to be spotted is that if you cut the number of | :48:15. | :48:19. | |
people want Jobseeker's Allowance and benefits overall, it has fallen | :48:19. | :48:24. | |
over the last two years. Claimant count figures, the reforms are | :48:24. | :48:28. | |
moving from one benefit to the other. You would think there are | :48:28. | :48:32. | |
jobs hanging on trees by the way you are talking. Why isn't | :48:32. | :48:35. | |
unemployment coming down specifically in large numbers? | :48:35. | :48:38. | |
are going through a difficult economic time. So there are no jobs, | :48:38. | :48:45. | |
that is not what -- that is what I It is not true that there are no | :48:45. | :48:51. | |
jobs. In Oldham, they could not fill 15 jobs. That is the other | :48:51. | :48:56. | |
side, there are jobs. Young people are not qualified properly. Yes. | :48:56. | :49:00. | |
Graduates are unemployed in large numbers as well, who you might say | :49:01. | :49:04. | |
are qualified educationally. They have not had enough work place | :49:04. | :49:08. | |
experience. In a different scheme were I take ethnic-minority | :49:08. | :49:14. | |
graduates straight into university, we have to equip them with | :49:14. | :49:18. | |
workplace skills. That is crucial for the bit you talk to employers, | :49:18. | :49:21. | |
it is often not about, do I have somebody who knows how to operate | :49:21. | :49:25. | |
the machinery or the software, it is actually somebody who is not yet | :49:25. | :49:28. | |
fully geared up or experienced in the workplace. That is what | :49:28. | :49:32. | |
employers are looking for. If you can get them into the workplace, | :49:32. | :49:36. | |
they start to build those skills. If you are taking them from 16 to | :49:36. | :49:43. | |
24, would you say that university it is not the great panacea, that | :49:43. | :49:47. | |
going to get a job after school might be better. Is that the sort | :49:47. | :49:54. | |
of thing you might guide people to do? So 62% of the young people who | :49:54. | :49:58. | |
have been through our programme go into higher education. At least | :49:58. | :50:03. | |
half of them, they are the first person in their family to go to | :50:03. | :50:07. | |
university. What I would say, it is a not-for-profit scheme, the | :50:07. | :50:10. | |
government largely out source is what it does to profit | :50:10. | :50:15. | |
organisations. We are a charity. We get private sector employers like | :50:16. | :50:20. | |
me to provide other private-sector employers, like my clients, to come | :50:20. | :50:25. | |
together and work with schools and colleges to deliver this programme. | :50:25. | :50:28. | |
On the manners, on the, I can't be bothered to get up and no one, do | :50:28. | :50:33. | |
you find that? Getting people to go to work every day is a real problem. | :50:33. | :50:38. | |
The you have found that? We teach them. This idea of a lost | :50:38. | :50:42. | |
generation, is that exaggerated or really true? It is partially | :50:42. | :50:46. | |
exaggerated. If you look at young people have become unemployed, most | :50:46. | :50:50. | |
come off benefits within three months. There is a called young | :50:50. | :50:54. | |
people who are struggling, not getting to work. We have to do | :50:54. | :50:59. | |
everything we can to help them. I don't want to countenance a lost | :50:59. | :51:03. | |
generation because we want to make sure that does not happen. | :51:03. | :51:10. | |
Spare a thought for Ed Balls, who only wants to be loved. R. The | :51:10. | :51:13. | |
Shadow Chancellor has apparently spent thousands of pounds on | :51:14. | :51:19. | |
private polling on an effort to find out if voters like him. Ed, we | :51:19. | :51:23. | |
could have saved a lot of money. One call and we could have told you. | :51:23. | :51:27. | |
Anyway, it is sweet and we thought we would help him out. We thought | :51:27. | :51:32. | |
we would ask what people thought of the Chancellor, too. | :51:32. | :51:36. | |
We have come to Spitalfields Market, a stone's throw from the City of | :51:36. | :51:40. | |
London, to find out if people prefer a George Osborne or Ed Balls. | :51:40. | :51:43. | |
There will be voting with these, which I suppose for balance we | :51:43. | :51:49. | |
should call coloured spheres. both irritates me. Also irritates | :51:49. | :51:55. | |
me an awful lot more than was born. Very positive. -- Ed Balls | :51:55. | :52:00. | |
irritates me an awful lot more. Balls has got it. What has he got? | :52:00. | :52:05. | |
He is not looking like Mr Bean and doing a whirling dervish act. | :52:05. | :52:10. | |
don't like Osborne for by just don't like him. But you are a Tory | :52:10. | :52:16. | |
voter? Yes. He doesn't make the right choices, the economy is not | :52:16. | :52:19. | |
growing. A what do you like about George Osborne? I know more about | :52:19. | :52:27. | |
him, Ed Balls doesn't seem as visible. It has to be... What do | :52:27. | :52:31. | |
you think it is about him? People do have quite a strong reaction to | :52:31. | :52:38. | |
him. I have heard on the grapevine that he can be a bit belligerent. | :52:38. | :52:44. | |
Osborne. Why? I don't trust Ed Balls. I wouldn't trust Ed Balls as | :52:44. | :52:47. | |
far as I could throw him. And I don't like Osborne either. It is | :52:48. | :52:57. | |
:52:58. | :52:59. | ||
not much of a choice. Ed Balls is BLEEP. Osborne is a gap Les BLEEP. | :52:59. | :53:06. | |
This guy. He is less of a BLEEP. have never heard so much bad | :53:06. | :53:10. | |
language during -- doing one of these things were but I am amazed | :53:10. | :53:13. | |
how many people can't pick either, but it is looking pretty evenly | :53:13. | :53:17. | |
matched. Coming up for lunchtime, who would you rather have lunch | :53:17. | :53:22. | |
with? Definitely Ed Balls. He would be entertaining. Why would you talk | :53:22. | :53:31. | |
about? Current affairs. Ed Balls looks the more rich. Really? | :53:31. | :53:34. | |
Because he is fatter so I feel like he has more money to feed himself. | :53:35. | :53:40. | |
A appearances can be deceiving. ? George Osborne is loaded. Who | :53:40. | :53:43. | |
would you rather be stuck on a desert island with out of those | :53:43. | :53:51. | |
two? Who are they? Who would you rather share a flat with? Why? | :53:51. | :53:55. | |
is better looking. Who would you rather your daughter came home | :53:55. | :54:01. | |
with? Ed Balls, I suppose. He would make the better boy friend, George | :54:01. | :54:07. | |
Osborne or Ed Balls? Oh... For most of the morning, it was neck and | :54:07. | :54:11. | |
neck but in the last few minutes, George Osborne has just snuck into | :54:11. | :54:14. | |
the lead. The fact is, for most people, it was like choosing | :54:14. | :54:20. | |
between a poke in the eye or a kick in the teeth. | :54:20. | :54:27. | |
Adam's vocabulary has been much expanded. It is an educational life | :54:27. | :54:35. | |
that the BBC. We have succeeded where he failed. Claire Perry, we | :54:35. | :54:40. | |
are told, she has got a tattoo dedicated to George Osborne. Steady | :54:40. | :54:45. | |
on. She won't tell us where it is. And we are not going to ask, | :54:45. | :54:48. | |
because we are frightened of the answer. Why should we love Ed | :54:48. | :54:54. | |
Balls? Here's a good bloke. Even the press lobby, they say they | :54:54. | :54:58. | |
enjoy spending time with him. He is good to have a drink with. I agree | :54:58. | :55:03. | |
with that. He is a good laugh, he cooks well. He has not cooked for | :55:03. | :55:09. | |
me. I'll have a word, see if he can invite you round. He is good | :55:09. | :55:15. | |
company? Yes. Why should we love George Osborne. Equally, he is a | :55:15. | :55:20. | |
great guy. He runs a very good team, trying to make these incredibly | :55:20. | :55:24. | |
tough decisions. Who wants to go into politics to be popular? It is | :55:24. | :55:28. | |
a nightmare. People think I spent my entire life swearing and cursing | :55:28. | :55:31. | |
because this is what they read in the papers. No, they just watch it | :55:31. | :55:35. | |
on a Daily Politics. If you ask people about Labour's policy, half | :55:35. | :55:40. | |
of them have not got a clue. All of this is based on images and sound | :55:40. | :55:44. | |
bites and what the media says. When we tried to dig behind it, these | :55:44. | :55:50. | |
public images have nothing to do with it. Can George Osborne cook? | :55:50. | :55:56. | |
Yes, he can. And he hires women. hires women? As a stay at home | :55:56. | :56:00. | |
housewife, he gave me my big break into politics. What is his best | :56:01. | :56:07. | |
dish? I can't possibly tell you. Because you don't know. The fact is | :56:07. | :56:12. | |
that neither is that popular. It maybe something about being | :56:12. | :56:16. | |
Chancellor, or Shadow Chancellor, they are both jobs designed to make | :56:16. | :56:21. | |
enemies, aren't they? Yes, it is a tough economic time, people are | :56:22. | :56:26. | |
really struggling. I think they blame all politicians for the mess | :56:26. | :56:30. | |
that they think the country is in. And we will have the fight about | :56:30. | :56:35. | |
who is really to blame. My stop them blame you, to be fair. Could | :56:35. | :56:42. | |
you leave him alone? -- most of them blame you, to be fair. It is a | :56:42. | :56:48. | |
tough time. It is. In the House of Commons in particular, the culture | :56:49. | :56:53. | |
is to knock spots off each other. That doesn't show people in a very | :56:53. | :56:59. | |
positive light. They both have a problem, people who know them say | :56:59. | :57:02. | |
they have a much better image privately than they do with the | :57:02. | :57:09. | |
public, which I think is true of both of them. You judge people on | :57:09. | :57:13. | |
the teams they get together, and George and Ed have loyal and good | :57:13. | :57:17. | |
team around them. Ultimately, you judge people on who they get to | :57:17. | :57:20. | |
work with over the years. And how they treat people around them. I | :57:20. | :57:27. | |
think both of them to a regional -- do a reasonable -- both of them do | :57:27. | :57:37. | |
:57:37. | :57:37. | ||
They are obviously concerned about their public image, or Ed Balls is. | :57:38. | :57:43. | |
What do they need to be to be more likeable to the public? Why do you | :57:43. | :57:50. | |
have to be likeable? They want to be. I have met them both and I | :57:50. | :57:54. | |
would quite happily, and have done, spent time with them both. The | :57:54. | :57:57. | |
thing I think they have in common, I find they are both incredibly | :57:57. | :58:03. | |
clever. You would back me up on that. Personally, I think clever is | :58:03. | :58:12. | |
Go think they should spend too much time worrying about being likeable | :58:12. | :58:16. | |
-- I don't think they should. They should be more serious. If they | :58:16. | :58:20. | |
started talking about playing computer games, I don't think | :58:20. | :58:24. | |
people will be that fast. If he was my son sitting there muttering, I | :58:24. | :58:28. | |
would tell him to shut up and he would not get his Nintendo for a | :58:28. | :58:33. | |
week. It is annoying, irritating, juvenile behaviour and the House of | :58:33. | :58:40. | |
Commons could do with more of a serious approach. Right... Thank | :58:40. | :58:46. | |
you for getting into the spirit of a non-partisan discussion. That is | :58:46. | :58:51. | |
it for today, with a core of our guests. The One o'clock News is | :58:51. | :58:55. |