Browse content similar to 22/06/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Good afternoon. Welcome to the Daily Politics. The last Labour | :00:45. | :00:49. | |
Government got it wrong on immigration says Ed Miliband. But | :00:49. | :00:54. | |
in practical terms, what would he do about it if he came to power? | :00:54. | :00:58. | |
Are the row about Jimmy Carr's tax affairs is still deafening everyone | :00:58. | :01:03. | |
at Westminster. Can a satirist survive a dose of his own medicine? | :01:03. | :01:08. | |
Nick Clegg is still in Rio. There is an Earth Summit going on but | :01:08. | :01:12. | |
have the claims of the environment effectively been mugged by grim | :01:12. | :01:18. | |
economic reality? And have social media sites given | :01:18. | :01:26. | |
political voice to these young mothers in the Midlands? | :01:27. | :01:32. | |
All that in the next hour. With us for the duration, newspaper | :01:32. | :01:35. | |
columnist and chairman of the Social Market Foundation think-tank, | :01:35. | :01:40. | |
who was on this week with the last night, Mary Ann Sieghart. And the | :01:40. | :01:47. | |
titan of the Mail on Sunday, that's what it says here, and he gave me a | :01:47. | :01:52. | |
tenner if I said I would say it, Peter Hitchens. First, the banks | :01:52. | :01:56. | |
are on the news. Late last night, one of the international rating | :01:56. | :01:59. | |
agencies, Moody's, downgraded a whole range of banks including | :01:59. | :02:04. | |
British banks such as Barclays, HSBC and the Royal Bank of Scotland. | :02:04. | :02:10. | |
This matters because the ratings they get can influence how much it | :02:10. | :02:15. | |
costs them to borrow a on the wholesale markets, when they borrow | :02:15. | :02:21. | |
from each other. If they have to pay more, they will pass extra | :02:21. | :02:28. | |
costs on to their customers. These customers are you and me. I guess | :02:28. | :02:32. | |
this was inevitable. It was inevitable. We have been expecting | :02:32. | :02:36. | |
it for months. As banks and the Eurozone get more and more dodgy, | :02:36. | :02:42. | |
British banks' exposure to them becomes more worrying. We are not | :02:42. | :02:46. | |
very exposed to Greek banks but we are to Spanish and Italian ones. It | :02:46. | :02:50. | |
does make a difference. It makes a difference to you and me. It sounds | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
abstract but if their pay more for their money, but when they lend it | :02:54. | :02:58. | |
to last, they will charge just more. And we have lent to French and | :02:58. | :03:03. | |
German banks to are exposed. There is a domino effect for a start | :03:03. | :03:13. | |
:03:13. | :03:17. | ||
people wonder why -- domino effect. People wonder why. The rate that | :03:17. | :03:21. | |
the banks pay are rising and rising. I do not understand the point of | :03:21. | :03:26. | |
the rating agencies. They failed to predict or warn against the crash | :03:26. | :03:29. | |
itself. And now they seem to be scrabbling around trying to make | :03:29. | :03:33. | |
out that they know what is going on and doing harm in the process. Who | :03:33. | :03:38. | |
will benefit? I wish they were shut up. They are not inaccurate to | :03:38. | :03:43. | |
downgrade. I think they are right to downgrade. They failed before | :03:43. | :03:46. | |
the credit crunch but we have nothing to put in their place. | :03:46. | :03:53. | |
Investors need some form of writing the bonds that they want to buy. If | :03:53. | :03:56. | |
you will be allowed to invest in Triple A bonds, where the borrower | :03:56. | :04:02. | |
is guaranteed to pay you back, then you need to know what the credit | :04:02. | :04:08. | |
worthiness is of the borrower. they are a reliable, objective | :04:08. | :04:11. | |
source of information or are they trying to overcompensate for | :04:11. | :04:15. | |
previous failings? They do not actually make the market, they tend | :04:15. | :04:20. | |
to follow the market. This ratings agency is now catching up with what | :04:20. | :04:25. | |
most people have already known. The wider picture, Peter, which seems | :04:25. | :04:30. | |
incapable of resolution for a less miracles happen at the EU summit | :04:30. | :04:37. | |
next week, is that it just seems that the inability to sort the | :04:37. | :04:43. | |
Eurozone is now a constant track on the world economy including the | :04:43. | :04:48. | |
British economy. -- drag. wonder if this is not comparable to | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
the months before Britain pulled out of the ERM. Everyone said that | :04:52. | :04:57. | |
if we left, it would be a disaster and in fact it was not. The end of | :04:57. | :05:01. | |
the Eurozone and the end of the single currency cannot come soon | :05:01. | :05:05. | |
enough for the sake of the country. Since the whole thing seemed from | :05:05. | :05:08. | |
the start, and I have climbed from the beginning to have been against | :05:08. | :05:13. | |
it, on sound economic and political grounds, from the start it was | :05:13. | :05:18. | |
wrong, so why might it be possible that getting rid of it will | :05:18. | :05:23. | |
actually be the stimulant that the European economies need? If we're | :05:23. | :05:27. | |
going to get into competitive opposition, I was against it from | :05:27. | :05:33. | |
the start at as well. A felt so strongly about the economics of it. | :05:33. | :05:38. | |
I thought it was bound to go wrong and it has. At the time, people | :05:38. | :05:43. | |
said that if you include what countries are involved, it is not | :05:43. | :05:50. | |
what is described as a optimal area. It turns out that the country's | :05:50. | :05:59. | |
beginning with the name -- letter A them were more viable. The if it | :05:59. | :06:03. | |
was confined to Germany, Scandinavia, maybe France, it could | :06:03. | :06:07. | |
retrench to that. Possibly, but you need to have pretty strong | :06:07. | :06:11. | |
political and fiscal union even to make that work. You have to | :06:11. | :06:14. | |
persuade German voters that they should subsidise the poorer parts | :06:15. | :06:21. | |
of France, say, forever. And they do not have the same communality | :06:21. | :06:25. | |
that we in the south-east have with people in the north-east. | :06:25. | :06:27. | |
problem is that Germany is benefiting from the Euro because it | :06:27. | :06:32. | |
is a substantial devaluation of the Deutschmark. That is why they cling | :06:32. | :06:40. | |
on to it. Under any circumstances, they would get out of it. It is | :06:40. | :06:45. | |
time for our daily quiz. Britain is in trouble with Brussels again. Our | :06:45. | :06:48. | |
question for today, why is the European Commission taking Britain | :06:48. | :06:52. | |
to court this time? Is its failure to manufacture Cornish pasties in | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
to manufacture Cornish pasties in Cornwall, too much bacteria in | :06:55. | :07:00. | |
British cheese, the price of strawberries at Wimbledon or | :07:00. | :07:02. | |
strawberries at Wimbledon or failure to pay enough tax on | :07:02. | :07:09. | |
imports of garlic? Difficult questions. Tougher than Guess The | :07:09. | :07:15. | |
Year. At the end of the show, we will have a wild stab at the answer. | :07:15. | :07:20. | |
Do you have any idea? I do. That what -- that is what happens when | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
you have bright people on the programme. Politicians do not often | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
met -- admit they got it wrong. When they do, it is big news. Ed | :07:29. | :07:32. | |
Miliband today says that Labour got it wrong when in government on the | :07:32. | :07:37. | |
issue of immigration. He said that voters to raise concerns about | :07:37. | :07:42. | |
issues of immigration are not begets after all. In 2010, Gordon | :07:42. | :07:46. | |
Brown famously described Gillian Duffy, a pensioner from Rochdale, | :07:46. | :07:50. | |
as a bigot after she raised the issue of immigration with him. What | :07:50. | :07:54. | |
is the background to this? Under Labour, immigration sword. Official | :07:54. | :07:57. | |
Labour, immigration sword. Official figures showed that net migration | :07:57. | :08:02. | |
from 1997 and 2010 was 2.5 million. That is the official figure. | :08:02. | :08:06. | |
Unofficially, it could be bigger. The coalition has committed to | :08:07. | :08:10. | |
bringing immigration down to tens of thousands. But latest figures | :08:10. | :08:16. | |
show that in the first year of the coalition, net migration was still | :08:16. | :08:22. | |
250,000. The vast number of those came to the UK to study. Ed | :08:22. | :08:27. | |
Miliband's ideas include keeping a place conditional controls on | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
migration for a new EU countries such as Croatia. Labour did not do | :08:30. | :08:35. | |
that when in power. A crackdown on recruitment agencies that advertise | :08:35. | :08:39. | |
for immigrant workers. You would think that would be illegal. And an | :08:39. | :08:42. | |
early warning system if some industries are employing | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
disproportionately large numbers of foreign workers. That would be | :08:46. | :08:50. | |
interesting to monitor. And more action such as heavier fines on | :08:50. | :08:52. | |
employers to undercut the minimum employers to undercut the minimum | :08:52. | :08:57. | |
wage. Here is what he had to say this morning. Why did we not listen | :08:57. | :09:03. | |
more? I think by the end of our time in office, we were too dazzled | :09:03. | :09:11. | |
and sanguine about globalisation, too sanguine about the impact of | :09:11. | :09:14. | |
globalisation and migration or economic growth. We lost sight of | :09:14. | :09:19. | |
who was benefiting from that growth. Whose living standards were being | :09:19. | :09:28. | |
squeezed. And to those who lost out, we were too quick to say "Like it | :09:28. | :09:33. | |
or lump it." The truth is, the public were ahead of us in seeing | :09:33. | :09:38. | |
some of the problems of migration. They were seeing them in their own | :09:38. | :09:45. | |
communities. The shadow Immigration Minister, Chris Bryant, is with us. | :09:45. | :09:51. | |
When did you realise that Labour got it wrong? I remember when that | :09:51. | :09:54. | |
Gillian Duffy thing happened in the general lection. I thought, you | :09:54. | :10:00. | |
know what, she looks remarkably like a lot of my constituents, who | :10:00. | :10:06. | |
have had concerns about immigration for a long time. In particular, | :10:06. | :10:11. | |
they came to me and said "My son has just got a job in Gloucester | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
and it is great but after five weeks, suddenly the employers | :10:14. | :10:18. | |
decided to get rid of the British workers and bring in a Contractor | :10:18. | :10:24. | |
from Poland and undercut their wages." That is when it came to hit | :10:24. | :10:29. | |
home. That is why ever since I have had this job, I have been saying | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
that I think it is really important that we got two things wrong in | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
government. First of all, we went it alone. We and Ireland were the | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
only countries in Europe who decided that anyone could come and | :10:41. | :10:45. | |
work here from the first day of joining the European Union. That | :10:45. | :10:53. | |
was a mistake. A you were warned at the time. And we got it wrong. Ed | :10:53. | :10:57. | |
Miliband said in his speech that we were in a sense that dazzled by the | :10:57. | :11:04. | |
global economy. We wanted to be able to do well in it. -- bedazzled. | :11:04. | :11:06. | |
If you wanted to have a conservatory built on your house, | :11:06. | :11:09. | |
it was good because it meant that it was cheaper but it was not so | :11:09. | :11:13. | |
good if you were the kind of person that built in eight -- work in a | :11:13. | :11:18. | |
company that build conservatories. What was the second thing? We left | :11:18. | :11:22. | |
it too late before we introduced a point based system, which would | :11:22. | :11:24. | |
have meant that people coming into this country were only the people | :11:24. | :11:31. | |
who could actively contribute to society. That meant in particular | :11:31. | :11:35. | |
for a lot of British people, including people who came to the | :11:35. | :11:39. | |
country 20 years ago or whose parents came 30 years ago, it meant | :11:40. | :11:43. | |
that if they were close to the national minimum-wage, their wages | :11:43. | :11:50. | |
were undercut. When Michael Howard propose the point based system in | :11:50. | :11:56. | |
the 2005 election, Labour excoriated them. We got it wrong. | :11:56. | :12:01. | |
It is quite a big mistake. It is. That is why Ed Miliband, and I'm | :12:01. | :12:04. | |
sure this will not be the last speech he will make about | :12:04. | :12:09. | |
immigration. Thus the first time I have heard of a continued dialogue. | :12:09. | :12:13. | |
It is a mistake to see immigration as standing on its own. For many, | :12:13. | :12:17. | |
it is also about the welfare state and housing and public services and | :12:17. | :12:21. | |
the economy. If you got it wrong on those two things, does that mean | :12:21. | :12:24. | |
that if you add up these mistakes, that there are too many foreigners | :12:25. | :12:29. | |
in Britain? It stands to logic the defiance saying that we should have | :12:29. | :12:33. | |
introduced proper Kurds when the new countries join the European | :12:33. | :12:37. | |
Union and that we should have introduced a point based system, | :12:37. | :12:43. | |
that I am of course saying that too many people came in when we were in | :12:43. | :12:47. | |
power. What you make of this mea culpa? I think it is probably | :12:47. | :12:54. | |
sensible. -- what do you make. There are a properly looked at the | :12:54. | :12:57. | |
opinion polls and seen that the two reasons why Labour voters deserted | :12:57. | :13:02. | |
the party at the last election were immigration and welfare. The two | :13:02. | :13:05. | |
are often combined and belabour probably have to do this to get | :13:05. | :13:10. | |
themselves re-elected. A row of it a pamphlet about this after the | :13:10. | :13:13. | |
general election because I felt very strongly that particularly in | :13:13. | :13:18. | |
areas like mine, it is not about opinion polls. You do not need | :13:18. | :13:21. | |
opinion polls to tell you this, you just have to knock on doors. It was | :13:21. | :13:26. | |
one of the issues that came back time and time again. That is not to | :13:26. | :13:32. | |
say that places like La Rhondda, which grew on the back of | :13:32. | :13:36. | |
immigration from Italy and Ireland, do not recognise that welcoming | :13:36. | :13:40. | |
foreigners is a strong British principle. It has happened very | :13:40. | :13:45. | |
fast and change the nature. And the numbers were huge. -- changed the | :13:45. | :13:50. | |
nature. You will hear the sound of the barn door closing as the horse | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
has bolted. I find most objectionable about this is that, | :13:54. | :14:00. | |
having been showered with buckets of slime and hose down with abuse | :14:00. | :14:03. | |
from people from the left for saying exactly this for 15 years, I | :14:03. | :14:11. | |
now have to sit and listen to these people try to get political credit | :14:11. | :14:16. | |
for agreeing with me. The Labour Party is a party full trendies who | :14:16. | :14:20. | |
love to have cheap waiters and cheap servants and all the things | :14:20. | :14:26. | |
they benefit from, but it also relies on the votes of people who | :14:26. | :14:29. | |
actually do not benefit from immigration. They have discovered | :14:29. | :14:32. | |
that if they are going to get back into office, they will have to | :14:32. | :14:36. | |
grovel to them. The damage has already done. You have not admitted | :14:36. | :14:43. | |
the other thing. Andrew Neather admitted this in the Evening | :14:43. | :14:47. | |
Standard some years ago, that this was a deliberate policy to | :14:47. | :14:52. | |
transform the country. He meant it to be so. You have done it now. | :14:52. | :14:56. | |
There is no point saying that we're sorry we did that. You're not sorry | :14:56. | :15:02. | |
at all. You are sorry that it has cost to popularity. Over to you! | :15:02. | :15:07. | |
Bucket of slime is one of Peter's absolute favourite phrases. He used | :15:07. | :15:14. | |
it six times on Question Time the other day ago. -- other week ago. | :15:14. | :15:18. | |
It is a bit of an irony when someone who writes for the Daily | :15:18. | :15:21. | |
Mail start complaining about buckets of Slyne being poured over | :15:21. | :15:25. | |
people. -- buckets of slime. There is no point arguing. It is true | :15:25. | :15:29. | |
that many migrants to this country have dramatically assisted our | :15:29. | :15:33. | |
economy. They have become major employers, they have been | :15:33. | :15:38. | |
entrepreneurs, they have won Nobel prizes. So what is your problem? | :15:38. | :15:42. | |
should have been making sure that the people who could add value to | :15:42. | :15:46. | |
the country came in and not everybody else. If you look at the | :15:46. | :15:49. | |
health service, there are many migrants working there. You want to | :15:49. | :15:53. | |
have your cake and eat it. Why do a. You want to say that immigrants are | :15:53. | :15:57. | |
wonderful. You are in favour of beating cake and in favour of cake. | :15:57. | :16:01. | |
What is the point of cake without eating it? You look at it and think, | :16:01. | :16:05. | |
if I don't eat it, I will be healthier. You think immigrants are | :16:05. | :16:09. | |
wonderful but we have too many? That is a logical. I think you | :16:09. | :16:13. | |
ought to be drawing a distinction. -- illogical. I do not think it's a | :16:13. | :16:16. | |
great idea to have mass migration of people with no skills into this | :16:16. | :16:21. | |
country. I think it is a good thing to have British universities having | :16:21. | :16:26. | |
lots of foreign students coming to this country, studying, going back | :16:26. | :16:29. | |
to their own country and then having a strong desire to do trade | :16:29. | :16:37. | |
You accepted when Andrew asked to whether there were too many people | :16:37. | :16:41. | |
in the country, you accepted and that their world. I am not saying | :16:41. | :16:44. | |
there are too many people in the country. You're not saying that? | :16:44. | :16:49. | |
Too many foreign people? I was asked a specific question which was, | :16:49. | :16:54. | |
during the people we talked about, did we get it wrong? What I am | :16:54. | :16:58. | |
saying is, look, we have already said, we should have had proper | :16:58. | :17:03. | |
restraints on the number of people coming in... You clearly accepted | :17:03. | :17:08. | |
the point. I think you are backing away from it. Because you know what | :17:08. | :17:11. | |
is coming next, if there is too many foreign people in the country, | :17:11. | :17:15. | |
what are you going to do about it? I am not saying there are too many | :17:15. | :17:23. | |
foreign people in this country. are not? You did earlier. I said | :17:23. | :17:26. | |
too many migrants came initial period of time into this country | :17:26. | :17:30. | |
and we should have done a better job. And they are still here, | :17:30. | :17:35. | |
obviously. They are not all here. According to the ONS, the | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
population of Britain has risen by 3 million because of labour | :17:39. | :17:44. | |
migration policy, that is a lot of people. And Andrew... It may be | :17:44. | :17:48. | |
good or bad but it is a lot. A lot of the migrants that come to this | :17:48. | :17:55. | |
country every year our students who come to do three-year courses. I | :17:55. | :18:01. | |
think it is good for the British economy. Those people all go back. | :18:01. | :18:06. | |
A well, they don't all go back. vast majority. It is a way into | :18:06. | :18:15. | |
this country as well. No. There are no rights guaranteed. Some people | :18:15. | :18:19. | |
came to train as doctors and then... I wonder what you are going to do | :18:20. | :18:24. | |
about it. In some ways it is refreshing you are saying you got | :18:24. | :18:30. | |
it wrong but I can't see anything you're proposing will make a | :18:30. | :18:34. | |
difference other than to the margin. You are still proposing a cap on | :18:34. | :18:44. | |
:18:44. | :18:48. | ||
immigration? There isn't a cap now. You oppose any controls on student | :18:48. | :18:58. | |
:18:58. | :18:59. | ||
We think the government was absolutely right to say we would | :18:59. | :19:02. | |
tackle the issue of fake colleges and that is another thing we should | :19:02. | :19:06. | |
have done when we were in office. Do you think the government is | :19:06. | :19:10. | |
right... It has shown no success in doing this so far but it is early | :19:10. | :19:14. | |
days. Do you think the Government is right to be aiming to get net | :19:14. | :19:18. | |
migration down to the tens of thousands. I don't think it stands | :19:18. | :19:22. | |
a chance of doing it. My concern about the particular target of a | :19:22. | :19:24. | |
net migration, which is the difference between those coming in | :19:24. | :19:30. | |
and going out, but the best way of dealing with it is to try to | :19:30. | :19:34. | |
persuade people to leave the country. There is a danger that you | :19:34. | :19:37. | |
would do things that could be very damaging for the economy. The bit I | :19:37. | :19:42. | |
think has been always left out of this argument, by people like Peter | :19:42. | :19:46. | |
and those on the right of British politics, is the element about what | :19:46. | :19:51. | |
it does to local workforces. That is the bit where I think there is | :19:51. | :19:56. | |
far more we can do, about making sure that you can't just say | :19:56. | :20:00. | |
everybody we want to employ in this company, even though it is a | :20:00. | :20:03. | |
company that serves Morrisons, or ASDA or were there, has got to be | :20:03. | :20:09. | |
able to speak Polish. It would be good if they would all speak | :20:09. | :20:13. | |
English. There are things you can do about making sure the minimum | :20:13. | :20:18. | |
wage is possible -- properly enforced. Whenever you hear the | :20:19. | :20:23. | |
word crack down, it is phoney. It means nothing will happen. We are | :20:23. | :20:28. | |
not the government. If you were in office, it would just be another of | :20:28. | :20:31. | |
those eye-catching policies with which the Prime Minister could be | :20:31. | :20:36. | |
personally associated and nothing would happen. You want to have the | :20:36. | :20:41. | |
votes of people whose opinions you secretly despise. No, no, sorry. | :20:41. | :20:45. | |
The bit I object to about that, my constituents have been expressing | :20:45. | :20:49. | |
these used to make, I have put them very clearly and I think it is | :20:49. | :20:53. | |
right that we have policies at the next general election that address | :20:53. | :20:58. | |
these issues. Which will amount to nothing in practice. Your cynicism | :20:59. | :21:06. | |
is a beauty to behold. It is experience. I have heard of before. | :21:06. | :21:08. | |
The big challenge is to come up with policies that can convince | :21:08. | :21:14. | |
people... Absolutely, that will it -- this is only the first part. | :21:14. | :21:18. | |
will put that for another day. coming back! | :21:18. | :21:22. | |
You might use a mobile phone to pay your bills, catch up on the | :21:22. | :21:25. | |
television or make sure you have take a whole week's worth of The | :21:25. | :21:30. | |
Daily Politics and Sunday Politics. But have you ever used it to | :21:30. | :21:34. | |
organise a political campaign, save a local hospital or plant trees in | :21:34. | :21:38. | |
a park? It seems that some people, including many who never thought | :21:38. | :21:43. | |
they had a scintilla of interest in politics, are doing just that. We | :21:43. | :21:48. | |
sent Kate Conway to Nottingham to meet some. | :21:48. | :21:52. | |
Women used to talk politics here, on the stoop, hanging out the | :21:52. | :21:57. | |
washing. Over the fence. It is tempting to think that all of that | :21:57. | :22:01. | |
has disappeared. But here in Retford, working-class women are | :22:01. | :22:05. | |
doing garden wall politics, but they are doing it on line, on their | :22:05. | :22:10. | |
mobile phone, and changing the way local services are run. When Adele | :22:10. | :22:13. | |
Mumby found out there were plans to change the local maternity unit, | :22:13. | :22:20. | |
she decided to do something about it. Having six children and being a | :22:20. | :22:25. | |
mother, understanding what it meant and implications that that had, it | :22:25. | :22:28. | |
got to me and I thought I have to do something about this. I | :22:28. | :22:32. | |
contacted a local councillor, Graeme Oxby, and I contacted John | :22:32. | :22:38. | |
Mann, and I said I have got some information. But it wasn't enough. | :22:38. | :22:43. | |
My 10-year-old daughter's set it up there, as -- because I have no idea | :22:43. | :22:49. | |
how to use Facebook or a phone. Within 10 minutes, there were 32 | :22:50. | :22:55. | |
members. Within an hour, it grew and grew. From text messages and | :22:55. | :23:00. | |
Facebook, a campaign was born. And the local Labour MP, John Mann, | :23:00. | :23:07. | |
says it is those very tools that social media has created a new type | :23:07. | :23:12. | |
of voter. They haven't been engaged with politics. Here we are suddenly | :23:12. | :23:19. | |
finding that non-voters, the so- called alleged apathetic, right in | :23:20. | :23:25. | |
the middle of big politics, serious politics, changing things. I got | :23:25. | :23:30. | |
two tonnes of soil delivered free of charge, railway sleepers. I got | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
health and safety down here, the teenage lads designed it and built | :23:33. | :23:38. | |
it. It is spot on. While the government may be planning a new | :23:38. | :23:43. | |
force of 5,000 community organisers around the country, Lorna tells me | :23:43. | :23:49. | |
she doesn't think they need outside help. The community is something | :23:49. | :23:52. | |
that might interest people, but at the same time, we are doing it | :23:52. | :23:56. | |
ourselves, we don't need somebody to be told you are in charge of the | :23:56. | :24:00. | |
community, we are the community. They are not taking their cue from | :24:00. | :24:04. | |
politicians, it is at the other way around. Would you ever read the | :24:04. | :24:08. | |
tweets of John Mann or any other MP? No, I don't read tweets. Never. | :24:08. | :24:12. | |
Which doesn't surprise this expecting political communications. | :24:12. | :24:15. | |
It is about having an ongoing dialogue with the community, as | :24:16. | :24:19. | |
opposed to blasting out a press release. It is about using these | :24:19. | :24:23. | |
tools to find issues that people in the local community care about, and | :24:23. | :24:27. | |
work out a way in which they as a politician and a leader can make a | :24:27. | :24:33. | |
change in the community. For the Labour MP, John Mann, it is another | :24:33. | :24:39. | |
way of winning. If we get those people partnering with us, we win | :24:39. | :24:44. | |
an election. We will win an election by a significant majority. | :24:44. | :24:50. | |
We are back in power. And if we trust those people and we transfer | :24:50. | :24:54. | |
some real power to them, on their agendas, on their priorities, on | :24:54. | :25:02. | |
their terms, I think we could be in power for a long time. | :25:02. | :25:10. | |
Luke Bozier used to be Labour's e- campaigns campaigns -- e-campaigns | :25:10. | :25:20. | |
:25:20. | :25:21. | ||
manager, he is now working for the Tories, launching a political rival | :25:21. | :25:25. | |
to Twitter. Have these social media sides have a negative or positive | :25:25. | :25:29. | |
effect? Absolutely positive. Politicians used to exist in a bit | :25:29. | :25:32. | |
of a vacuum and the only time they would hear the voices of those they | :25:32. | :25:35. | |
claim to represent his when they were back in their constituencies. | :25:35. | :25:40. | |
A politician could only see a few handfuls of people every week. | :25:40. | :25:43. | |
Twitter and Facebook, if a politician is into those networks, | :25:43. | :25:47. | |
they get instant feedback. The work that they do, the things they say, | :25:47. | :25:52. | |
they instantly get opinions from the public. That has a massive | :25:52. | :25:56. | |
impact on politics. It has been a benefit to our democracy? Maybe it | :25:56. | :26:00. | |
has. It seems to me the old- fashioned methods worked just as | :26:00. | :26:04. | |
well. In my home town of Oxford, we had a campaign to save the public | :26:04. | :26:07. | |
libraries. It used all kinds of old-fashioned things like people | :26:07. | :26:10. | |
ringing each other up, the newspapers getting involved and a | :26:10. | :26:14. | |
fantastic, thrilling public meeting addressed by Philip Pullman. At the | :26:14. | :26:18. | |
end of it we saved the public libraries. I do remember a single | :26:18. | :26:22. | |
click of Facebook page on the whole thing. You are not on Twitter, are | :26:22. | :26:30. | |
you? Were you looking? How would you know. I am on Facebook, there | :26:30. | :26:37. | |
is a Peter Hitchens must die on Facebook. We are all on that. | :26:37. | :26:47. | |
:26:47. | :26:48. | ||
I don't know why you have to restrict yourself to 27 words or | :26:48. | :26:53. | |
whatever it is. I can't see the point. Other people are welcome to | :26:53. | :27:03. | |
:27:03. | :27:04. | ||
it. They are no substitute... I think you need both. Twitter is | :27:04. | :27:08. | |
one tool, it gives a lot of people a voice. Facebook is good for | :27:08. | :27:11. | |
organising, e-mail is good for campaign and fund-raising. You also | :27:11. | :27:15. | |
need the real stuff as well. Where we have seen digital impact | :27:15. | :27:20. | |
elections, for example in 2008 with Obama, they used digital with the | :27:20. | :27:26. | |
real old stuff. That is positive. They used the internet to raise | :27:26. | :27:32. | |
money. They did, they raised a fortune and it is good for that. | :27:32. | :27:36. | |
They raised millions in very small donations. Twitter has changed the | :27:36. | :27:40. | |
new cycle, even more. It has speeded it up even more. I rely on | :27:40. | :27:45. | |
Twitter for my news feed now. I don't have to go to the BBC News | :27:45. | :27:48. | |
website or to the Press Association to see what is going on. I look on | :27:48. | :27:52. | |
Twitter and it is fantastic. It is more than 140 characters because | :27:53. | :27:57. | |
people linked to a much more interesting Web page. It is a left- | :27:57. | :28:01. | |
wing electronic mob. It is not left wing, for goodness sake. It is | :28:02. | :28:07. | |
overwhelmingly left wing. How do you know? Because I am abused on it. | :28:07. | :28:12. | |
We are all abused on it. There is a mob searching backwards and | :28:12. | :28:18. | |
forwards. It has as many views as the people who use it. During the | :28:18. | :28:23. | |
Budget, even before the Chancellor sat down, hashtag granny tax had | :28:24. | :28:31. | |
come up. And pasty tax. suddenly it runs. Whereas the | :28:31. | :28:35. | |
politicians themselves are not great at using it. More than half | :28:35. | :28:40. | |
of MPs have Twitter. At the end of the England Ukraine match, Ed | :28:40. | :28:44. | |
Miliband, or somebody else to write it for him, says, great result for | :28:44. | :28:51. | |
England, credit to all the players. It is so banal, it could have been | :28:51. | :28:56. | |
him. I am sure the England team work over the moon. Were Ian Haig's | :28:56. | :29:01. | |
tweets are pretty pathetic. Some MPs are great on Twitter. Tom | :29:01. | :29:11. | |
:29:11. | :29:11. | ||
Watson, Chris Bryant, Stella Creasy, Louise Minchin. Your newspaper it | :29:11. | :29:18. | |
increasingly runs quotes based on stories from Twitter. I thought | :29:18. | :29:22. | |
blogging seemed to be perfectly sensible. I thought Britain was a | :29:22. | :29:25. | |
step too far. I think you have to select the bits of the electronic | :29:25. | :29:28. | |
revolution that work for you. I think Facebook is already fading | :29:28. | :29:32. | |
ever think Twitter will be forgotten in five years. Mention | :29:32. | :29:36. | |
.com is the new one, I hope we can mention -- welcome you on that. | :29:36. | :29:41. | |
What is the difference between your website and Twitter? It is a niche | :29:41. | :29:44. | |
complement to Twitter, for people's interested in specific topics. At | :29:44. | :29:54. | |
:29:54. | :29:56. | ||
In you can get 180 characters. Maybe you can sign up Peter? Toyota | :29:56. | :30:00. | |
is a great discipline for try and get things done concisely -- | :30:00. | :30:04. | |
Twitter is. It is. You don't have to work for weeks to build up a | :30:04. | :30:08. | |
following list, once you join you have that. The focus on the topics | :30:08. | :30:13. | |
that interest you. Thank you for being with us. | :30:13. | :30:17. | |
The first Earth Summit in 20 years has been taking place in Rio this | :30:17. | :30:21. | |
week and ends today. The aim is to end sustainable -- reach | :30:21. | :30:24. | |
sustainable development goals with targets for production and | :30:24. | :30:28. | |
consumption. The Prince of Wales warned the gathering of the danger | :30:28. | :30:38. | |
:30:38. | :30:43. | ||
We are facing increasing challenges. I have watched in despair at her | :30:43. | :30:48. | |
slow progress has sometimes been and how the outright sceptical | :30:48. | :30:53. | |
reluctance by some to engage with the critical issues of our day have | :30:53. | :30:59. | |
often slowed that process to a standstill. The Prime Minister | :30:59. | :31:04. | |
dispatched his deputy to the diplomatic jungle. There he is. | :31:04. | :31:07. | |
Looking for Michael Gove. He was pessimistic about the chances of | :31:07. | :31:13. | |
success. When you're dealing with 190 countries are bound -- around | :31:13. | :31:17. | |
the negotiating table, you have a problem. UN de diluting things so | :31:17. | :31:20. | |
that everybody agrees and the end result is more insipid than you | :31:20. | :31:29. | |
would like. -- you end up. As the attempt to challenge climate change | :31:29. | :31:34. | |
been lost in the misery of the global downturn? James Delingpole - | :31:34. | :31:37. | |
- James Delingpole is the author of a book about how environmentalists | :31:37. | :31:43. | |
are killing the earth. Let us come to friends of the Earth. Is the | :31:43. | :31:47. | |
harsh reality, the undeniable truth not that apart from Prince Charles, | :31:48. | :31:52. | |
in an age of austerity and uncertainty, people care less about | :31:52. | :31:57. | |
the environment and more about where the jobs are coming from? | :31:57. | :32:02. | |
do not think that is true. I do not think that is the case. Poll after | :32:02. | :32:06. | |
poll shows that in the centre ground of politics, there is a lot | :32:06. | :32:12. | |
of concern, almost as much as there was. Mr Obama and Mr Cameron could | :32:12. | :32:19. | |
not be bothered to go. They're only sent Mr Clegg. The problem for Mr | :32:19. | :32:22. | |
Cameron is that there is a drag out to the right in the Conservative | :32:22. | :32:26. | |
Party with the debate is getting caught up. That means it will be | :32:26. | :32:30. | |
difficult for him because this is an important centrist issue. But if | :32:30. | :32:37. | |
he has pulled out to the right, fearing to lose voters from UKIP, | :32:37. | :32:43. | |
then... Mr Obama, 80 thought this mattered in the November election, | :32:43. | :32:47. | |
he would have gone. -- if he thought. It is very polarised in | :32:47. | :32:53. | |
the US. In the UK, fascinatingly, while our economy has flatlined, | :32:53. | :32:57. | |
the green sectors within the economy, including energy and also | :32:57. | :33:02. | |
recycling and waste disposal, have grown by around about 5%. They are | :33:03. | :33:07. | |
trend bucking sectors. Just because the economy is doing badly is no | :33:07. | :33:11. | |
reason to turn our backs on saving the planet? I'm sorry you had to | :33:11. | :33:15. | |
invoke the subject of green jobs because green jobs killed jobs in | :33:15. | :33:21. | |
the real economy. Green jobs only exists because of taxpayer subsidy. | :33:21. | :33:25. | |
We see this in the windfarm industry, onshore or whinge farms - | :33:25. | :33:30. | |
- onshore wind farms operate on a 100% subsidy. Offshore wind farms | :33:30. | :33:37. | |
operate on a 200% subsidy. These are not real jobs. I think it is | :33:37. | :33:40. | |
time that we judge to the environmental movement on what it | :33:40. | :33:45. | |
has actually achieved. What it has done is really quite serious harm. | :33:45. | :33:50. | |
We have seen rain forests chop down to grow palm oil to create biofuels. | :33:50. | :33:54. | |
We have had agricultural land diverted to biofuels, causing | :33:54. | :33:59. | |
starvation and poverty. We have windfarms blighting the landscape, | :33:59. | :34:03. | |
chopping up birds and killing bats. The environmental movement has | :34:03. | :34:09. | |
damaged the global economy. Globally, over the last three years, | :34:09. | :34:13. | |
more investor money has gone into renewable technologies than into | :34:13. | :34:19. | |
conventional energy sources. I do not think investors share your view. | :34:19. | :34:23. | |
Much of that is government money. lot of that is from the private | :34:23. | :34:27. | |
sector. But subsidised. There is a subsidy in the system for renewable | :34:27. | :34:33. | |
technologies. It is coming down dramatically as costs fall globally | :34:33. | :34:38. | |
in solar by 75% in the past five years. There is promise and | :34:38. | :34:42. | |
investors disagree. The tragedy of the situation in the UK is that | :34:42. | :34:46. | |
blowing hot and cold, flood flopping on green as the coalition | :34:46. | :34:49. | |
is doing, is killing investor confidence, which means that people | :34:49. | :34:53. | |
will not put money into the economy. David Cameron was pictured with | :34:53. | :34:58. | |
huskies, talking about selling -- installing a wind turbine in | :34:58. | :35:02. | |
Downing Street, now he does not even go to the Rio summit. It | :35:02. | :35:06. | |
cannot be denied that priorities have changed. He was in Mexico. He | :35:06. | :35:14. | |
could have gone down. They were clashing, the G20 and real. -- real. | :35:15. | :35:19. | |
Mr Clegg is still there. A correct me if I'm wrong, do not think he | :35:19. | :35:22. | |
has made a speech on the Environment says he has become | :35:22. | :35:25. | |
Prime Minister. I think there is a feeling that being green is a | :35:26. | :35:30. | |
luxury you can afford during good times and not during bad times. | :35:30. | :35:34. | |
Nick Clegg goes halfway round the world to the summit but he is only | :35:34. | :35:38. | |
quoted on his reaction to Michael Gove's plans for all levels. What | :35:38. | :35:43. | |
was interesting is how that time the BBC, which has been taken over | :35:43. | :35:51. | |
by fanatics, has devoted to it. It is observable truth. The BBC does | :35:51. | :35:57. | |
not believe it has any business to be impartial. That is why we have | :35:57. | :36:01. | |
James on. Our eye and the exception that proves the rule. And you, for | :36:01. | :36:06. | |
that matter. -- I am the exception. Having people on is not the same as | :36:07. | :36:10. | |
having a general bias in favour of certain things. It has not bothered | :36:10. | :36:17. | |
us because the cult is visibly dying. Fewer and fewer people | :36:17. | :36:21. | |
believe in the science of man-made global warning. It is how they will | :36:21. | :36:26. | |
get out of it, when it has eventually become so obvious that | :36:26. | :36:31. | |
the thing was a cult and a scam. How will they get out of it? | :36:31. | :36:39. | |
there is a fact, if he would shut up for a minute. Hang on a minute, | :36:39. | :36:43. | |
I didn't come here to keep quiet. To keep quiet for the next few | :36:43. | :36:46. | |
minutes. There is evidence that people do not worry about it so | :36:46. | :36:49. | |
much. They do not worry about it and they do not think it is as | :36:49. | :36:54. | |
important. They think scare stories were told. One of the fact, and I | :36:54. | :36:58. | |
will put it like that to find out if it is true, is that people like | :36:58. | :37:02. | |
James say that actually temperatures have not risen in this | :37:02. | :37:06. | |
century and so we are right not to be worried about it so much. What | :37:06. | :37:13. | |
say you? 1998 is the base year for that statement. 1998 is | :37:13. | :37:17. | |
statistically an outlier year. It was a big bulge. If you look at the | :37:17. | :37:20. | |
Trent, which any serious statistician will do overtime, it | :37:20. | :37:25. | |
is consistently up. Some of the warmest years of light -- in record | :37:25. | :37:28. | |
have been in the last 20 years or so. Have temperatures continue to | :37:28. | :37:38. | |
:37:38. | :37:39. | ||
rise? Yes. In fact, NASA put 2005 in its state above 1998. Professor | :37:39. | :37:43. | |
Phil Jones of the climatic Research Unit, you could not get more | :37:43. | :37:50. | |
warmest than that man, he has said there is no statistical warming | :37:50. | :37:53. | |
trend since 1995. If it has increased a tall, it is so tiny as | :37:53. | :37:59. | |
to make no difference. I will send you the Graf later. But this | :37:59. | :38:02. | |
matters. If people feel the temperatures are not rising, they | :38:02. | :38:06. | |
are unlikely to follow the green agenda when it comes to global | :38:06. | :38:13. | |
warming. I saw an interesting poll yesterday conducted by Ipsos MORI. | :38:13. | :38:17. | |
Do you know who people trust most on this issue? They trust the | :38:17. | :38:27. | |
:38:27. | :38:28. | ||
scientists. 66% are people trust scientists and only 9% Trust | :38:28. | :38:31. | |
journalists. You know most of the people who talk on this subject, | :38:31. | :38:35. | |
they are not scientists. Even on the global warming sight, they are | :38:35. | :38:42. | |
mainly lobbyists. Are you a scientist? I am not. My case rests. | :38:42. | :38:50. | |
If I can finish. Of course. vast majority of physicists and | :38:50. | :38:55. | |
scientists say that global warming is accelerating. Even a of global | :38:56. | :38:59. | |
warming is not happening, and I'm not a scientist and a warm-up line | :38:59. | :39:02. | |
on this, surely it makes sense to use more sources of energy that | :39:02. | :39:07. | |
will not run out and fewer sources of energy that will run out? Or oil | :39:07. | :39:10. | |
and coal will eventually run out of the Sun will not stop shining. What | :39:10. | :39:16. | |
is the problem? One. About scientists. Scientists questions -- | :39:17. | :39:26. | |
:39:27. | :39:28. | ||
scientific questions are not decided by majority, they are | :39:28. | :39:32. | |
defined by results. That is meaningless. There is an energy | :39:32. | :39:35. | |
crisis here. In a few years' time we will not have enough electricity | :39:35. | :39:41. | |
to run the sort of economy that we have, particularly the heavy | :39:41. | :39:45. | |
electronic economy we have become. There is an urgent need to provide | :39:45. | :39:50. | |
reliable power and wind power and solar power will not and cannot do | :39:50. | :39:57. | |
it. One of the things, on this matter you cannot laugh at this | :39:57. | :40:01. | |
movement, because they are preventing serious consideration. | :40:01. | :40:05. | |
We have loads of shale gas. And we will do another debate on that | :40:05. | :40:09. | |
another day. I would like to say before you go, if you could both | :40:09. | :40:13. | |
block on this issue, off what has been happening to temperatures over | :40:13. | :40:17. | |
the past 15 years, if we could take you Bloggs and put them on the | :40:17. | :40:22. | |
Daily Politics website, let us get a debate going. I think it is one | :40:22. | :40:25. | |
of the key issues that is determining people's attitudes. | :40:25. | :40:31. | |
would be delighted. Earlier this week, we thought that came to was | :40:31. | :40:34. | |
the second highest mountain on earth. It delays. Since then, we | :40:34. | :40:38. | |
have discovered that it is not a pile of rocks in the Himalayas, it | :40:38. | :40:42. | |
is Jimmy Carr's money in Jersey. Apparently it is a kind of | :40:42. | :40:45. | |
Investment Trust which allowed the comedian to avoid the kind of | :40:45. | :40:50. | |
income tax that the rest of us get lumbered with. Where was my | :40:50. | :40:54. | |
accountant when I needed him? David Cameron described this legal | :40:54. | :40:58. | |
behaviour as "Morally unacceptable." Yesterday, the Jimmy | :40:58. | :41:02. | |
Carr did the fastest climb down in history, pulling out of the scheme | :41:02. | :41:07. | |
and apologising. He had to apologise on Twitter. In the House | :41:07. | :41:10. | |
of Commons, Labour pointed out a lack of even-handedness in the | :41:10. | :41:17. | |
Government's combination. -- condemnation. The depth to Prime | :41:17. | :41:21. | |
Minister rushed to the TV studios to condemn the tax-avoidance scheme | :41:21. | :41:26. | |
used by Jimmy Carr. -- Deputy Prime Minister. Oddly, he did not condemn | :41:26. | :41:29. | |
as morally repugnant the tax- avoidance scheme are used by | :41:29. | :41:33. | |
Conservative supporter, Gary Barlow, who has given a whole new meaning | :41:33. | :41:42. | |
to the phrase, Take That. If it is also morally repugnant, why has he | :41:42. | :41:48. | |
just been given a OBE in the birthday Honours? Why is the Prime | :41:48. | :41:54. | |
Minister's view of what is dodgy in the tax system are so partial. | :41:54. | :41:58. | |
Philip green as interesting tax relationships but far from being | :41:58. | :42:02. | |
labelled morally repugnant, he is heading up a government review. | :42:02. | :42:05. | |
While the Prime Minister talks are talking TV studios, the reality is | :42:05. | :42:10. | |
that his government is cutting HMRC Resources, making it much harder to | :42:11. | :42:14. | |
tackle tax avoidance schemes. In the botched Budget, his government | :42:14. | :42:18. | |
has given every millionaire a legal way to reduce their tax bill by | :42:18. | :42:26. | |
cutting tax for the rich as 1%. There are a number of measures that | :42:26. | :42:33. | |
we are introducing. The anti- avoidance rule measures to make | :42:33. | :42:38. | |
sure that at least some tax is paid by those on high incomes. The | :42:38. | :42:46. | |
Chancellor will be at the dispatch box on Tuesday to answer questions. | :42:46. | :42:50. | |
Last night, Jimmy Carr was recording his Channel 4 programme, | :42:50. | :42:57. | |
8 Out of 10 Cats, which airs tonight. The 8 Out of 10 Cats pay | :42:57. | :43:01. | |
their taxes, apparently. The fellow comedians did not let him off the | :43:01. | :43:09. | |
hook, badly. Toby Young and Matthew buckshot are with us. -- Matthew | :43:09. | :43:19. | |
:43:19. | :43:19. | ||
Oakeshott. A should satirists to be sent to a higher standards than | :43:19. | :43:24. | |
others? Jimmy Carr had let himself wide open by doing a sketch on one | :43:24. | :43:28. | |
of his shows attacking Barclays Bank for using exactly the kind of | :43:28. | :43:34. | |
tax avoidance scheme but he was using himself. Game set and match? | :43:34. | :43:37. | |
The difference to bring Gary Barlow and Jimmy Carr is that they are | :43:37. | :43:41. | |
both guilty of tax avoidance but Jimmy Carr is also guilty of the | :43:41. | :43:45. | |
son of hypocrisy. Not only did he write that sketch where he took the | :43:45. | :43:48. | |
mickey out of Barclays for trying to do exactly what he has tried to | :43:48. | :43:53. | |
do, but he also banks at Barclays, it now turns out. Really?! You | :43:53. | :43:59. | |
cannot be guilty of tax avoidance if that is not illegal. No. You can | :43:59. | :44:04. | |
be morally guilty. That is different. I think satirists are | :44:04. | :44:08. | |
held to a higher standard and should be. The point of satire, | :44:08. | :44:13. | |
dating back to the Greeks, was for the little man to tilt at the | :44:13. | :44:18. | |
titans of the Establishment. To make him feel better about the fact | :44:18. | :44:22. | |
that he himself earns very little. It is to comfort the afflicted and | :44:22. | :44:28. | |
afflict the comfortable. The problem is that this tone that many | :44:28. | :44:33. | |
of these left-wing comedians take is very much at odds with their own | :44:33. | :44:36. | |
riches. It turns out that Jimmy Carr is not a little man at all, he | :44:36. | :44:43. | |
is actually a fully paid-up member of the ruling class. He bought his | :44:43. | :44:49. | |
house in north London for �8.5 million in cash. He paid cash! | :44:49. | :44:58. | |
was a loan from his company, don't forget. Is it possible, taking the | :44:58. | :45:03. | |
figure of Armando Ianucci now. He has made a career out of satirising | :45:03. | :45:07. | |
the establishment and now takes an will be. Does that undermine him? | :45:07. | :45:13. | |
don't know. I see what you mean about the court jesters. I think of | :45:13. | :45:17. | |
Jimmy Carr, his problem is he did not give �50 to the Tories. Then | :45:17. | :45:22. | |
David Cameron would not have objected. Like Mr Brown giving �2.5 | :45:22. | :45:28. | |
million to the Lib Dems. I do not offend that either. There is a | :45:28. | :45:31. | |
difference, a serious point here. There is a difference a dream | :45:31. | :45:36. | |
morally repugnant and illegal. I think it is right to draw that | :45:36. | :45:43. | |
distinction. The key point for David Cameron and George Osborne is, | :45:43. | :45:48. | |
what will we do about it now? How do we make this behaviour legally | :45:48. | :45:53. | |
repugnant as well. Three it is such a huge loophole. Why not close it? | :45:53. | :45:59. | |
That is what I'm saying. Let us just ask, a lot of this activity is | :45:59. | :46:03. | |
deeply damaging to the country. We need the money. It is also deeply | :46:03. | :46:07. | |
unfair. It is not technically illegal because the advisers to | :46:07. | :46:17. | |
:46:17. | :46:18. | ||
these people are far, far better Who needs the money? What is this | :46:18. | :46:22. | |
morality staff? Why is it Betty -- better for me or anybody else to | :46:22. | :46:26. | |
give money that they have learnt to a government, which will throw it | :46:26. | :46:32. | |
away on such things as wind farm subsidies, police who never go out, | :46:32. | :46:38. | |
schools which apparently teach people to be more ignorant. The | :46:38. | :46:45. | |
whole point about tax avoidance... If all the police in this country | :46:45. | :46:50. | |
were abducted by aliens tonight, most people wouldn't notice. What | :46:50. | :47:00. | |
:47:00. | :47:00. | ||
do they do? What about the schools you send your children to? As a | :47:00. | :47:10. | |
matter of fact, the schools are so bad, they would be better off being | :47:10. | :47:17. | |
kept at home. Tax avoidance by definition it is legal. You tell me | :47:17. | :47:22. | |
the point at which it becomes immoral. Do you agree? I want to | :47:22. | :47:26. | |
make the same point from a slightly different angle. If there is this | :47:26. | :47:30. | |
important distinction between what you are morally obliged to play and | :47:30. | :47:33. | |
what you are legally obliged to play, the maximum amount you are | :47:33. | :47:36. | |
allowed to pay under the law shouldn't be the ceiling. If you | :47:36. | :47:40. | |
believe in higher taxation, you are morally obliged to pay more tax | :47:40. | :47:43. | |
than you are legally allowed to under the current system. If you | :47:43. | :47:46. | |
think the highest rate of tax should be higher, you should | :47:46. | :47:51. | |
actually donate money to HMRC, in addition to the maximum amount. The | :47:51. | :47:57. | |
tizz an interesting idea but totally unrealistic. -- it is an | :47:57. | :48:02. | |
interesting idea. I am happy to pay more tax and I would like to make | :48:02. | :48:10. | |
more tax. But I -- to pay more tax. But only if that is part of | :48:10. | :48:17. | |
everybody having to. So you want me to pay more tax? I want everybody | :48:17. | :48:22. | |
to pay more tax but I also wanted to be fair. We are drifting right | :48:22. | :48:27. | |
of the main point, which is no one can say what the line is between | :48:27. | :48:33. | |
morally repugnant and not. There are some things that are the wrong | :48:33. | :48:37. | |
side of the line. What Jimmy Carr did is the wrong side of the line, | :48:37. | :48:40. | |
as well as many other people who David Cameron is not prepared to | :48:40. | :48:44. | |
condemn, very selective condemnation. That is what we have | :48:44. | :48:52. | |
got to do. The biggest scandal of them all his non-dom status. A one | :48:52. | :48:55. | |
to ask Toby, do you have any objections to Jimmy Carr paying | :48:55. | :48:59. | |
only 1% tax? No, no one is morally obliged to pay more than they are | :48:59. | :49:06. | |
legally required to. Your admirably run a new free school, who is going | :49:06. | :49:12. | |
to fund that if we will pay 1% tax? I don't think he is morally at | :49:12. | :49:16. | |
fault, I think you have to simplify the tax code, which is what the | :49:16. | :49:23. | |
Chancellor tried to do in his last Budget. And failed. You don't think | :49:23. | :49:29. | |
it is anti-social to pay 1% tax? You need to simplify the tax code | :49:29. | :49:35. | |
and close some of the loopholes. I don't think he is morally at fault. | :49:35. | :49:39. | |
Have you never used a tax avoidance scheme? You don't even put money | :49:39. | :49:44. | |
into an ISA? I am best in my pension but it is not using a tax | :49:44. | :49:50. | |
avoidance scheme. It is available to everybody. So is this. This is | :49:50. | :49:56. | |
not available to everybody. This is only available to people who have | :49:56. | :50:00. | |
very expensive advisers. You can only put money into an ISA if you | :50:00. | :50:04. | |
have the savings in the first place and many people watching this have | :50:04. | :50:08. | |
no savings. You never advise your clients to go into tax-avoidance | :50:08. | :50:12. | |
schemes? No, I advise pension funds and charities who are tax free | :50:12. | :50:17. | |
anyway, actually. It is an important point. I pay my pension | :50:17. | :50:21. | |
fund contributions, have stopped because I and 65 but I get the same | :50:21. | :50:25. | |
tax breaks as everybody else. This is different because this is a | :50:25. | :50:28. | |
secret scheme, until exposed by the Thames, which most people didn't | :50:28. | :50:32. | |
know about and is very expensive. People who can't afford to pay into | :50:32. | :50:42. | |
:50:42. | :50:55. | ||
a pension can't take advantage of Doing some things to mitigate your | :50:55. | :50:59. | |
tax is one thing. Being a multi- millionaire and only paying 1% of | :50:59. | :51:06. | |
your tax is surely wrong. I find it really odd that you don't see | :51:06. | :51:11. | |
anything wrong in paying 1% tax. Using these artificial schemes to | :51:12. | :51:16. | |
dodge tax. If I were legally able to pay as little tax, and I | :51:16. | :51:20. | |
challenge anyone to say sincerely that they feel different, if you | :51:20. | :51:23. | |
were legally able to pay as little tax as Jimmy Carr did, you would | :51:23. | :51:30. | |
take the opportunity. I would not. I could do that and I don't. I | :51:30. | :51:34. | |
could buy one of these schemes, and I don't. I choose not to because I | :51:34. | :51:38. | |
think it is grossly wrong and it should be illegal. We are going to | :51:38. | :51:45. | |
move on. The end of another week here at Westminster. | :51:45. | :51:51. | |
Even though they are travelling on for Britain. With David Cameron in | :51:51. | :52:01. | |
:52:01. | :52:01. | ||
Mexico and Nick Clegg in Brazil. Being a world leader isn't easy, | :52:01. | :52:07. | |
especially when you have got to go to G20 summits in... Sunny Mexico. | :52:07. | :52:11. | |
Greece turned the head honchos pale, and Spain, Egypt and Syria didn't | :52:11. | :52:18. | |
give them a load -- rosy glow, either. David Cameron failed to see | :52:18. | :52:26. | |
eye-to-eye with Argentina President Christine Nestor Kirchner. -- | :52:26. | :52:35. | |
Krisztina de curtain-up. O-levels to be on the way back. A some Lib | :52:35. | :52:41. | |
Dem colleagues are not happy. Simon Hughes could be in hot water. | :52:41. | :52:49. | |
the deputy... The Foreign Secretary make clear... I won't mention to | :52:49. | :52:55. | |
the Deputy Prime Minister his slip. It is entirely between ourselves. | :52:55. | :53:00. | |
Andy's four walls. And all of us, but we won't tell, will we? -- and | :53:00. | :53:10. | |
:53:10. | :53:16. | ||
An interesting week Michael Gove. Interesting week for Michael Gove, | :53:16. | :53:19. | |
of course - starting out the week upsetting Lord Leveson and ending | :53:19. | :53:22. | |
it by upsetting Nick Clegg about the idea of bringing back O-levels. | :53:22. | :53:25. | |
And another kind of Big Sam that would go with them, they used to be | :53:25. | :53:31. | |
called CSC's. -- another kind of exam that would go with them. Toby | :53:31. | :53:37. | |
and Matthew are still here. Michael Gove is up to something entirely | :53:37. | :53:40. | |
different. This is a vote which began on Jeremy Hunt, it is the | :53:41. | :53:43. | |
separation of the Liberal Democrat and Conservative parties, which | :53:43. | :53:48. | |
will eventually become an actual split. There will be a lot of | :53:48. | :53:53. | |
posturing by work -- both parties. This is the Tory party pretending | :53:53. | :53:58. | |
it is more conservative. This proposal has no hope of becoming a | :53:58. | :54:03. | |
practical fact. Is that true? The Lib Dems say they were not told | :54:03. | :54:06. | |
about it. We understand the Prime Minister was not told about it | :54:06. | :54:11. | |
either, so Mr Clegg should not feel too out of joint. Would it be good | :54:11. | :54:18. | |
or bad to have more robust exams in our schools? I agree that this is | :54:18. | :54:22. | |
all about the Tories differentiating. As with Leveson, | :54:22. | :54:26. | |
this is about Michael Gove starting off his leadership campaign of the | :54:26. | :54:32. | |
Tory party several years earlier. I take with a pinch of salt that | :54:32. | :54:36. | |
David Cameron didn't know anything about it. Will the Lib Dems attempt | :54:36. | :54:40. | |
to stop this happening? We will stop it happening, it is not in the | :54:40. | :54:43. | |
coalition agreement, there is no point did, it is a political stunt. | :54:43. | :54:48. | |
Why are you against it? The last thing we want is a major | :54:48. | :54:54. | |
reorganisation of the educational system. And 80 s was -- the NHS one | :54:54. | :55:04. | |
There is already available in schools but a Bach we have a two- | :55:04. | :55:14. | |
:55:14. | :55:17. | ||
I think all children should be held to a higher standard and we hope | :55:17. | :55:22. | |
all our children will sit O-levels, if the change goes through. I think | :55:22. | :55:25. | |
Nick Clegg over-reacted, I don't see why he has decided to make it a | :55:25. | :55:29. | |
test of strength. He said, I knew absolutely nothing about this, I | :55:29. | :55:33. | |
have been completely in the dark, but I am against it. It was almost | :55:33. | :55:36. | |
confessing that it was a knee-jerk reaction. He didn't condemn it for | :55:36. | :55:40. | |
the reason you have said, that it would involve too much | :55:40. | :55:44. | |
reorganisation, he said, this is a policy for the few, not the money. | :55:44. | :55:47. | |
Because only a few children will be able to take O-levels. But the | :55:48. | :55:51. | |
proposal is that the vast majority of children to be able to take O- | :55:51. | :55:56. | |
levels, as they do in Singapore. In Singapore, 80% of children should | :55:56. | :56:00. | |
take O-levels, why should our children not be as intellectually | :56:00. | :56:05. | |
able? We have to compete against Singapore. I think are in tile | :56:05. | :56:13. | |
school system -- our entire school system is coasting. It is importer | :56:13. | :56:18. | |
that we introduce more rigour into our examinations. -- important that. | :56:18. | :56:22. | |
Bright children are not challenged enough. Our education system is | :56:22. | :56:28. | |
biased towards the middle. It is really aimed at children who are | :56:28. | :56:38. | |
:56:38. | :56:40. | ||
being listed -- lifted from a D, to a C grade. O-levels were designed | :56:40. | :56:45. | |
for a selective state secondary education system. They were | :56:45. | :56:48. | |
introduced in 1981 with that in mind. They had to go because the | :56:48. | :56:52. | |
comprehensive system, introduced by Labour with Tory support, made it | :56:52. | :56:57. | |
impossible to sustain those levels of education. The GCSE was | :56:57. | :57:01. | |
introduced to blur the fact that standards had been reduced. Unless | :57:01. | :57:05. | |
you address that, and Michael Gove has neither the power nor intention | :57:05. | :57:11. | |
to address it, it is all posturing. The point is that if Michael Gove | :57:11. | :57:14. | |
was serious about doing this and getting it through the government, | :57:14. | :57:19. | |
you don't suddenly leak it to the Daily Mail. They is no evidence | :57:19. | :57:29. | |
:57:29. | :57:31. | ||
that Michael Gove bleak it himself. If you want a policy to happen, you | :57:31. | :57:39. | |
discuss it properly and you get by it. He doesn't need legislation for | :57:39. | :57:43. | |
this? Doesn't he? Who knows? Any major change has to be agreed by | :57:44. | :57:49. | |
the cabinet say it ain't going to happen. We have to go. | :57:49. | :57:52. | |
There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz. | :57:52. | :57:55. | |
The question was: Over what crime is the European Commission taking | :57:55. | :58:04. | |
Britain to court? Answer: it's the garlic. Apparently it's left a bad | :58:04. | :58:13. | |
taste in the mouth. Remind me how you will stop this. The garlic? | :58:13. | :58:17. | |
change in the exam system if it doesn't need a bill. The edge it | :58:17. | :58:22. | |
Asian department will always oblige. No cabinet and -- the education | :58:22. | :58:30. | |
department will always oblige. cabinet minister can go off on his | :58:30. | :58:40. | |
:58:40. | :58:47. | ||
own back and do something like that. The One O'clock News is starting | :58:47. | :58:50. | |
over on BBC One now. I'll be back on BBC One on Sunday with the | :58:50. | :58:53. | |
Sunday Politics at 11:00, with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, | :58:53. | :58:56. |