Browse content similar to 27/06/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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A day for Nick Clegg as he unveiled his plans to reform the House of | :00:53. | :00:59. | |
Lords. Happy days. Scores of Tory MPs are plotting to scupper his | :00:59. | :01:04. | |
bill. George Osborne surprises everybody and postponed a three | :01:04. | :01:08. | |
pence rise in petrol duty. When did he change his mind and did his | :01:08. | :01:18. | |
:01:18. | :01:19. | ||
colleagues know about the decision? Professor Brian Cox joins us to | :01:19. | :01:22. | |
argue for change in the libel laws. We debate whether Britain's private | :01:22. | :01:29. | |
schools should be abolished. They are a pox on society, abstract | :01:29. | :01:35. | |
social mobility and should be shut down -- they abstract. | :01:35. | :01:40. | |
All that to come before 1 o'clock and Prime Minister's Questions from | :01:40. | :01:45. | |
noon. With this work and Pensions Minister of Maria Millar and | :01:45. | :01:51. | |
Douglas Alexander. George Osborne postponed his three | :01:51. | :01:56. | |
pence increase in fuel duty and instead of owning headlines there | :01:56. | :02:06. | |
:02:06. | :02:07. | ||
is just another budget U-turn to add to the existing shambles. Last | :02:07. | :02:12. | |
night in a difficult interview Chloe Smith, treasury minister, | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
struggled to deal with questions on when she was told about the | :02:15. | :02:19. | |
decision. He has been under consideration for | :02:19. | :02:23. | |
Tom -- possum had. When was the decision taken? | :02:23. | :02:29. | |
It has been under consideration for some time. | :02:29. | :02:33. | |
When were you told? I have been involved for some time. | :02:34. | :02:38. | |
He didn't take the decision, obviously. When were you told? | :02:38. | :02:46. | |
We had a collective discussion in due course, and although I cannot | :02:46. | :02:52. | |
give you the full details. Did it happen today? You can't | :02:52. | :02:57. | |
remember? You would hold some 10 today -- you were told sometime | :02:57. | :03:03. | |
today? Before lunch or after lunch? I cannot comment. | :03:03. | :03:09. | |
When we told? It has been under discussion for | :03:09. | :03:13. | |
some weeks. The Treasury minister Chloe Smith | :03:13. | :03:17. | |
discussing the decision to postpone the rise in fuel duty last night. | :03:17. | :03:22. | |
Maria Millar, she was facing a tough time, awkward questions. | :03:22. | :03:28. | |
you feel for her watching that? The important announcement was | :03:28. | :03:33. | |
families can look forward to having that August increase in fuel duty | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
put forward by the last Labour government delayed and it is | :03:37. | :03:42. | |
important. Recognising the fact that as a result of not taking | :03:42. | :03:46. | |
forward Labour's plans for increasing fuel, it is 10 pence a | :03:46. | :03:49. | |
litre less than it would have been an that recognises the difficult | :03:49. | :03:53. | |
situation. If it is such a difficult and | :03:53. | :03:56. | |
important policy announcement to have been made at the last minute | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
did you think a more senior member of the government should have been | :03:59. | :04:04. | |
dealing with media outlets? The Chancellor spoke to the House | :04:04. | :04:09. | |
of Commons and announced it as part of his questions, and entirely | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
appropriate way to do it. What Chloe Smith last night was doing | :04:13. | :04:18. | |
was trying to make sure that people understood the reasons for the | :04:18. | :04:21. | |
decision. She didn't really understand the | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
reasons. A up until lunchtime their text | :04:24. | :04:27. | |
messages from Tory whips to MPs saying hold the line, defend the | :04:27. | :04:32. | |
line, the duty rise will go ahead. Why did a change of heart come? | :04:32. | :04:37. | |
It is important the Chancellor makes those announcements. Usually | :04:37. | :04:42. | |
we got on programmes like this asking. | :04:42. | :04:46. | |
When did he change his mind? I am not privy to those | :04:47. | :04:50. | |
conversations. I think it is right it goes to the House of Commons. | :04:51. | :04:55. | |
You agreed the decision but do you think in terms of the way it was | :04:55. | :04:59. | |
handled if Tory MPs and Tory ministers, even Justine Greening | :04:59. | :05:05. | |
didn't know over the weekend, there is a change of heart within hours | :05:05. | :05:09. | |
before it is announced. The rise way to handle these things is look | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
at the effect it will have on families and making sure families | :05:12. | :05:18. | |
have got the money they need. It is important the government does | :05:18. | :05:25. | |
listen. It was a U-turn? A change of heart? | :05:25. | :05:28. | |
In the Budget you said you would, he said he would implement this | :05:28. | :05:35. | |
rise, it was your policy. Why did you change your mind? | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
The it is making sure we have got a policy. | :05:39. | :05:42. | |
What happened between April and now? | :05:42. | :05:47. | |
The policy announced yesterday reflects the current situation many | :05:47. | :05:55. | |
families face. We have friends in council tax, we have lifted -- we | :05:55. | :05:57. | |
have frozen council tax. We are recognising the situation. | :05:57. | :06:02. | |
It has got worse and your government. | :06:02. | :06:12. | |
:06:12. | :06:16. | ||
But are now sit on the day Labour had wanted it. Just finally, on | :06:16. | :06:23. | |
Chloe Smith, it does seem a bit unfair for her, it has been said | :06:23. | :06:27. | |
good as bomb was a coward not coming to face the cameras himself | :06:27. | :06:35. | |
-- George Osborne was a coward. We all individually go out and talk | :06:35. | :06:41. | |
about this. This government used to talk about | :06:41. | :06:46. | |
having a fuel regulator. When global few -- fuel prices were | :06:46. | :06:50. | |
rising you would cut or freeze the tax so the impact wasn't so bad, | :06:50. | :06:54. | |
and when global fuel prices were falling you would freeze or raise | :06:54. | :06:59. | |
the tax so that you have got more revenue. You have just done the | :06:59. | :07:05. | |
exact opposite. Global fuel prices, they are in freefall at the moment. | :07:05. | :07:11. | |
And yet you cut the tax. It is the exact opposite of what you said you | :07:11. | :07:15. | |
would you buy your own standards, you should have raised the tax. Why | :07:15. | :07:19. | |
have you changed? We are trying to make sure the | :07:19. | :07:24. | |
absolute price at the pump is something that families can afford. | :07:24. | :07:28. | |
It is falling. We have put in place a policy that | :07:28. | :07:34. | |
will help families. We want to make sure the pressure continues to be | :07:34. | :07:39. | |
there because we know from filling up the family car is a great | :07:39. | :07:44. | |
pressure. You called it the fuel regulator. | :07:44. | :07:48. | |
Now you have done the exact opposite and I did understand why. | :07:48. | :07:53. | |
I have said three or four times why, we are recognising for many | :07:53. | :07:57. | |
families and also businesses, the cost of fuel is a real issue. | :07:57. | :08:03. | |
He it is falling. I did want to leave Douglas | :08:03. | :08:07. | |
Alexander all lonely at the end -- I do not want to leave. The words | :08:07. | :08:11. | |
hypocrisy which were used in that text from the Tory whips about | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
Labour's call, not the first government to postpone a fuel duty | :08:15. | :08:20. | |
rise. You did it during the Glasgow by-election, pure politics. | :08:20. | :08:26. | |
We did it during the global financial crisis in 2008. One. I do | :08:26. | :08:35. | |
agree with Maria on, -- one point, it is frankly a shambled. -- a | :08:35. | :08:45. | |
:08:45. | :08:45. | ||
shambles. What actually changed so that it | :08:45. | :08:49. | |
wasn't discussed in the Cabinet? It is inconceivable you would have a | :08:49. | :08:52. | |
change and fuel duty without consultation with the Transport | :08:53. | :08:56. | |
Secretary. The Transport Secretary before every Budget makes | :08:56. | :09:00. | |
submissions to the Chancellor. Why wasn't the discussion with the | :09:00. | :09:05. | |
Cabinet? The Transport Secretary? Why it is nobody in government able | :09:05. | :09:08. | |
to explain what changed in the mind of good Osborne and David Cameron | :09:08. | :09:13. | |
at lunchtime yesterday, other than the fact they realised they were in | :09:13. | :09:19. | |
an indefensible position? You will be asking him to explain | :09:19. | :09:23. | |
that. We will. | :09:23. | :09:30. | |
Now a subject close to our hearts. You may think the higher the tax | :09:30. | :09:35. | |
rate, the more government -- more money the government will have. One | :09:35. | :09:43. | |
man who disagrees is Andrew left her, a former adviser to President | :09:43. | :09:48. | |
Reagan and the creator of the Laffer curve. After a certain point | :09:48. | :09:52. | |
government receipts go up, tax rates can go down. If you cut the | :09:52. | :09:59. | |
tax you end up with more money. Earlier I caught up with Dr luffa, | :09:59. | :10:03. | |
began by asking if the government was to cut our taxes, would it | :10:03. | :10:09. | |
increase its revenues? Certainly some of the taxes could cut it -- | :10:09. | :10:15. | |
could be cut and you could end up with more revenue. If you redesign | :10:15. | :10:19. | |
your tax codes you can collect a lot more revenue by having a very | :10:19. | :10:24. | |
efficient flat tax system and get a lot more revenue. | :10:24. | :10:30. | |
We would all play the same rate regardless of income? -- paid? Is | :10:30. | :10:35. | |
that fair? It is very fair, especially | :10:35. | :10:37. | |
considering the prosperity it could create. | :10:37. | :10:43. | |
A lot of talk in Britain about tax avoidance. Is that an inevitable | :10:43. | :10:49. | |
part of a hide that world. Yes. People don't like paying tax | :10:49. | :10:52. | |
and they do what they can to get around it. Some of them are a | :10:52. | :10:59. | |
little bit sketchy, but people really focus on money. If you drop | :10:59. | :11:03. | |
a fire punnet on the street, but you if you come back into hours it | :11:03. | :11:10. | |
will not be there -- five-pound note. Taxes are very important to | :11:10. | :11:15. | |
people. The argument in this country has | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
been about austerity, the government says we have got to get | :11:19. | :11:24. | |
the deficit down, Labour says we should stimulate more to try to get | :11:24. | :11:32. | |
some growth. Where I do? If you believe the government | :11:32. | :11:36. | |
spending is taxed, the government doesn't create resources, it | :11:36. | :11:41. | |
redistributes them. Every dollar they give to somebody, I consider | :11:41. | :11:48. | |
that austerity. I consider cutting government spending. | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
Labour is talking about cutting the rate. | :11:51. | :11:57. | |
But they have just raised it which is outrageous. 20% VAT, that is a | :11:57. | :12:01. | |
very high rate. When Ed Balls say we cut the rate | :12:01. | :12:11. | |
:12:11. | :12:11. | ||
of VAT, he has the support of Arthur Laffer? | :12:11. | :12:17. | |
It is a disincentive for people to work. The government is taking 20% | :12:17. | :12:25. | |
of all are put, a lot of money. -- output. What are you allowed to | :12:25. | :12:32. | |
keep? There was a time when politicians | :12:32. | :12:39. | |
listened to you, Mrs Thatcher. Mr Regan. Mr Clinton, Mr Blair, | :12:39. | :12:44. | |
consolidated what they have done. They don't listen to you any more. | :12:44. | :12:52. | |
I don't know. But I am speaking the same as before. You did have to be | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
listened to to say the correct things. It worked pretty well for | :12:55. | :13:00. | |
Blair, didn't it? For Clinton, I thought Reagan did pretty well in | :13:00. | :13:07. | |
the US. You prefer you had under Gordon Brown, and what you're | :13:07. | :13:11. | |
getting now. If you do, go for it, it is your country, you can choose | :13:11. | :13:21. | |
:13:21. | :13:22. | ||
to listen to whatever you want to choose. Go for it. But remember, | :13:22. | :13:25. | |
you will have to leave the consequences of what you listen to. | :13:25. | :13:31. | |
I am here to try to be a help. If I am not a help, turned me off. | :13:31. | :13:35. | |
We have to now, we have come to the end of the did you. Plenty very | :13:35. | :13:39. | |
much. We switched him off politely. The | :13:39. | :13:46. | |
three names he mentioned, three American economists to take a | :13:46. | :13:55. | |
different view to him. You can see a longer interview on the website. | :13:55. | :14:01. | |
Even a hero of the free-market right thinks Ed Balls is right. | :14:01. | :14:05. | |
I think what we were hearing was a call for a simpler and fairer tax | :14:05. | :14:10. | |
system and that is something that I understand. I happen to have | :14:10. | :14:14. | |
studied the Laffer curve one I was studying economics in the 80s so it | :14:14. | :14:20. | |
is nothing new. -- when I was studying. We are trying to | :14:20. | :14:27. | |
supervise the tax system. Taking 2 million people out of tax | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
altogether feels like a simplification. In this country you | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
cannot really look at tax and the complications and the incentives it | :14:35. | :14:40. | |
brings without looking at welfare as well. When you look at the | :14:40. | :14:43. | |
changes we are making to make the system more understandable, and | :14:43. | :14:48. | |
making sure work pace, doctor left there would be supportive of that | :14:48. | :14:57. | |
as well. -- Arthur Laffer. And the flat tax system? The simplification | :14:57. | :15:03. | |
is taking exactly what he is talking about. Taking 2 million | :15:03. | :15:08. | |
people out of the basic rate. doesn't make it flattered. It makes | :15:08. | :15:14. | |
people understand the role of tax. Every time I ask you about flatter, | :15:14. | :15:20. | |
use a simpler. He what Way has George Osborne made the taxes | :15:20. | :15:24. | |
flatter? -- In what way. It is simply George Osborne was looking | :15:24. | :15:30. | |
at. What he is very much focusing on is hard to make sure the tax | :15:30. | :15:33. | |
system promotes people to work harder, promotes them to stay in | :15:34. | :15:37. | |
this country, so the changes at the top rate of tax as well, inspired | :15:37. | :15:47. | |
:15:47. | :15:56. | ||
Laffer didn't just influence Tony Blair. He accepted that 40% was the | :15:56. | :16:00. | |
right rate for the top rate of tax. He knew that if you did increase | :16:00. | :16:04. | |
that there was a danger you could end up with last. Taxes have to be | :16:04. | :16:08. | |
judged according to economic circumstances. Gordon Brown was the | :16:08. | :16:14. | |
Chancellor then. He sat at the top rate of tax. Arthur Laffer may be | :16:14. | :16:17. | |
engaging company but he is a discredited Economist in terms of | :16:17. | :16:21. | |
his first recital, Ronald Reagan, where the deficit grew rather than | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
shrink as a consequence of the massive tax -- massive tax cuts. | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
But that was because there was a build up in military spending. | :16:29. | :16:33. | |
he never talks about the spending side. His famous Graf was in | :16:33. | :16:36. | |
relation to tax. There was a build up in military spending because of | :16:36. | :16:41. | |
the Cold War. If there has to be a balance between income and | :16:41. | :16:45. | |
expenditure. That is why you need to reach a judgment based on | :16:45. | :16:50. | |
circumstances. You accepted the Laffer thesis. You accepted that | :16:50. | :16:57. | |
40% was the optimum rate of tax. accepted that you need to have | :16:57. | :17:01. | |
racial judgments according to economic circumstances. To help | :17:01. | :17:08. | |
Maria with the question you ask or, she could have said cutting the 50p | :17:08. | :17:12. | |
rate, but our judgment is that is the wrong judgment at this time. | :17:12. | :17:15. | |
Rewarding millionaires at a point where George Osborne, however | :17:15. | :17:20. | |
ridiculously, is trying to assert that we are in this together. | :17:20. | :17:24. | |
if 50p brings in less money? If you look at the evidence, it does bring | :17:24. | :17:28. | |
in significant sums of money and we make a judgment that it sends a | :17:28. | :17:33. | |
very clear signal that those at the top of society continue to have a | :17:33. | :17:38. | |
responsibility. How much extra has the 50p rate brought in? About half | :17:38. | :17:43. | |
of what it was estimated. accept that it did bring in money? | :17:43. | :17:47. | |
It brought in half of what was anticipated. How much? How much? | :17:47. | :17:52. | |
You have to accept that even the Labour government so that tax | :17:52. | :17:55. | |
increase. Ulex SAT that it was bringing in income but you cut it | :17:56. | :18:03. | |
anyway? -- you accept that. Why are you giving a tax cuts to | :18:03. | :18:05. | |
millionairess during a double-dip recession? We are trying to make | :18:05. | :18:09. | |
sure that we attract people and industry here. Let's move on to | :18:09. | :18:13. | |
something else you disagree about. All three main parties say they | :18:13. | :18:18. | |
support the reform of the House of Lords. They all put it into their | :18:18. | :18:23. | |
manifestos. So you might be forgiven for thinking that it is | :18:23. | :18:29. | |
job done, simple, simples even. When the Bill to reform the laws | :18:29. | :18:33. | |
gets -- reform the Lords gets into the House of Commons today, it may | :18:33. | :18:38. | |
begin a turbulent passage through Parliament. It could even result in | :18:38. | :18:41. | |
the biggest Conservative rebellion in modern history. What is | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
happening? Well, Nick Clegg and his party | :18:45. | :18:49. | |
desperately want to push this Bill through. Yesterday the party's | :18:49. | :18:50. | |
through. Yesterday the party's President told this programme that | :18:50. | :18:54. | |
Law Lords was an appalling system of institutionalised corruption. He | :18:54. | :18:58. | |
did not hold back. David Cameron has promised Nick Clegg that his | :18:58. | :19:02. | |
party will support the plans and he has imposed a three-line whip on | :19:02. | :19:06. | |
his MPs. However, it is thought that up to 100 Conservative MPs | :19:06. | :19:09. | |
could be ready to rebel against the Government. Many are worried that | :19:09. | :19:14. | |
an elected second chamber could challenge the primacy of the House | :19:14. | :19:18. | |
of Commons. Labour says it supports the principle of Lords reform but | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
Ed Miliband has said he will vote against the programme motion, to | :19:22. | :19:26. | |
limit the amount of time given to the debate. One Tory MP told us he | :19:26. | :19:31. | |
would be prepared to do the same and losing -- risk losing his job | :19:31. | :19:33. | |
as Parliamentary Private Secretary. as Parliamentary Private Secretary. | :19:33. | :19:42. | |
Be appointed House of Lords works. The Commons accept 80% of the bills. | :19:42. | :19:46. | |
I intend to support a position by opposing the programmed motion and | :19:46. | :19:50. | |
the second reading of the bill. are joined by Michael Forsyth. | :19:50. | :19:55. | |
Before I come to Michael Forsyth, Maria Miller, if the Government is | :19:56. | :19:59. | |
defeated on what is called the programmed motion, on which is to | :19:59. | :20:05. | |
determine the amount of time that the constitutional change should be | :20:05. | :20:08. | |
on the floor of the House, if the Government is defeated does it kill | :20:08. | :20:11. | |
the Bill? It does not. We are trying to make sure we get the | :20:11. | :20:15. | |
right balance between debating something which is important, and | :20:15. | :20:18. | |
reform of the House of Lords is important, but there are other | :20:18. | :20:21. | |
things the Government is doing and we need that time in Parliament. | :20:21. | :20:25. | |
The programme commotion will make sure we have the right balance. | :20:25. | :20:29. | |
will proceed even if the programmed motion falls? If the programme's | :20:29. | :20:33. | |
motion does not go through, all of this Bill Haas to be taken on the | :20:33. | :20:37. | |
floor of the House, and you will have to sideline all the other | :20:37. | :20:42. | |
legislative programmes. None of the main political parties in the House | :20:42. | :20:46. | |
of Commons believes that we should be not making progress on other | :20:46. | :20:50. | |
areas of our legislation. Would you have time if you go ahead without a | :20:50. | :20:55. | |
guillotine on this bill? It will be down to members of the House of | :20:55. | :20:57. | |
Commons and I believe the programmed motion will go through. | :20:57. | :21:04. | |
I ask you, if it does not, will you have time for anything else? That | :21:04. | :21:08. | |
would come down to the amount of people who wanted to participate in | :21:08. | :21:12. | |
debates. I think there will be quite a few. We will be going back | :21:12. | :21:16. | |
to the old days when there was no restrictions on debates. Harold | :21:16. | :21:20. | |
Wilson lost his effective programmed motion in 1969 to reform | :21:20. | :21:23. | |
the House of Lords. He had to abandon his reform altogether. | :21:23. | :21:27. | |
Michael Forsyth, you have agreed in principle to an elected second | :21:27. | :21:30. | |
chamber or mainly elected. If the coalition agreement reinforced that | :21:30. | :21:34. | |
and you have come forward with these proposals. Surely it is time | :21:34. | :21:38. | |
to live up to the promise. Unusually, none of these statements | :21:38. | :21:44. | |
are true. Our manifesto commitment was to seek a consensus towards a | :21:44. | :21:53. | |
largely elected House. And on the coalition agreement, the coalition | :21:53. | :21:59. | |
said that we would set up a committee to bring forward | :22:00. | :22:04. | |
proposals. That committee met once before breaking up in disarray. | :22:04. | :22:07. | |
There is no manifesto commitment from the Conservatives or anything | :22:07. | :22:10. | |
else in the agreement that says that we should proceed with this | :22:10. | :22:14. | |
ridiculous Bill, comprehensively rubbished already by a joint | :22:14. | :22:21. | |
committee of both Houses. Is there a consensus? De does not appear to | :22:21. | :22:31. | |
:22:31. | :22:34. | ||
be. We believe in the reform. -- there does not appear to be. We are | :22:34. | :22:38. | |
willing to prove that it is there by voting in favour of what we are | :22:38. | :22:44. | |
not convinced of as a perfect bill. We will show good faith and | :22:44. | :22:48. | |
commitment by voting for the bill in a second reading. Your | :22:48. | :22:51. | |
commitment was a referendum. that is one of the issues that I | :22:51. | :22:56. | |
hope will be resolved. You will not vote for the motion to curtail | :22:56. | :23:00. | |
debate. We will not, because we are serious about reform and we are | :23:01. | :23:04. | |
serious about scrutiny. My understanding is the amount of time | :23:04. | :23:08. | |
that has been contemplated for such a major constitutional change is | :23:08. | :23:12. | |
derisory. Michael has already said they are not contemplating having a | :23:12. | :23:15. | |
referendums will be one to exclude the public. We want to avoid a | :23:15. | :23:19. | |
situation where members of parliament are excluded from the | :23:19. | :23:24. | |
scrutiny that is demanded. You used to be a member of the House of | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
Commons, if you cannot get a programmed motion through, and I am | :23:28. | :23:32. | |
-- am I right in thinking it is a fancy name for a guillotine? And we | :23:32. | :23:36. | |
also had a manifesto commitment, by the way, to end the automatic | :23:36. | :23:40. | |
timetabling Bills. This is a constitutional Bill which will | :23:40. | :23:43. | |
always be taken without a guillotine. On the floor of the | :23:43. | :23:47. | |
House. The very idea of doing this with a timetable motion in itself | :23:47. | :23:54. | |
is an outrage compared to what we told the voters. What is your view? | :23:54. | :23:59. | |
Labour will vote against it on the timetabled side. Your colleagues in | :23:59. | :24:04. | |
the House of Commons say they will abstain. If the timetable motion | :24:04. | :24:08. | |
does that get -- does not get through, is at the end of it in | :24:08. | :24:12. | |
your view or will they still struggle on? What does it mean for | :24:12. | :24:15. | |
the other legislative programmes? Any sensible government will say, | :24:15. | :24:20. | |
OK, let us have the bill passed and we will get that agreed quickly. | :24:20. | :24:25. | |
The spill has been drawn up to satisfy the Deputy Prime Minister. | :24:25. | :24:30. | |
-- this bill. Most people will be arranged that the idea of a grubby | :24:30. | :24:33. | |
deal between the Conservatives and liberals, that says that we will | :24:33. | :24:38. | |
give you a permanent control than vote in the House of Lords in | :24:38. | :24:41. | |
return for you agreeing to vote for boundary changes that will give us | :24:41. | :24:45. | |
20 extra seats. That is not the basis upon which to proceed with | :24:45. | :24:50. | |
major constitutional reform. upset will Mr Cameron be if 100 of | :24:50. | :24:54. | |
his troops fought against this? say that there has not been | :24:54. | :24:59. | |
sufficient debate on the idea of reform of the House of Lords is | :24:59. | :25:05. | |
absurd when only back in 2007 we were floating on similar issues. -- | :25:05. | :25:09. | |
we were voting. The difference between the previous administration | :25:09. | :25:12. | |
and this one is that we want to move from words to actions. All | :25:12. | :25:17. | |
three parties have clearly pledged to make these reforms. Does that | :25:17. | :25:21. | |
mean, for example, and I notice that the Deputy Prime Minister was | :25:21. | :25:24. | |
saying today that those who make the law should be elected. Of | :25:24. | :25:29. | |
course, the House of Lords does not make any laws, and in the end the | :25:29. | :25:32. | |
House of Commons is the last say. Does the reverse applied which is | :25:32. | :25:36. | |
that if they are elected they are able to make the laws and challenge | :25:36. | :25:39. | |
the House of Commons? Politicians should be elected and people should | :25:39. | :25:43. | |
be able to call them to account. You are not answering my question. | :25:43. | :25:47. | |
Members of the House of Lords are politicians. He were not alone | :25:47. | :25:52. | |
there. Coming back to the question, how are said will Mr Cameron be if | :25:52. | :25:59. | |
there is a rebellion against this? -- how upset. We want to know that | :25:59. | :26:05. | |
we have made the case. So he will be absent? We want to know that we | :26:05. | :26:09. | |
explain to backbenchers like, burns. A does he really care about this? | :26:09. | :26:16. | |
You would have to ask the Prime Minister. So you do not know? In | :26:16. | :26:21. | |
one year's time, will it be through? I think not. If the | :26:21. | :26:24. | |
programmed motion is defeated the country will think, what on earth | :26:24. | :26:29. | |
are the House of Commons doing waiting time on this? We do not one | :26:29. | :26:35. | |
to see the Bill die. I have grave doubts about the management of the | :26:35. | :26:39. | |
Conservatives at the moment. I am far from convinced that 100 people | :26:39. | :26:43. | |
will vote against the programme commotion. They might abstain. | :26:43. | :26:46. | |
do not say that we want reform to die. We think there needs to be | :26:46. | :26:50. | |
serious scrutiny. We will have you back in the weeks ahead. | :26:50. | :26:54. | |
You may have heard that TV history has been made, not by us for a | :26:54. | :27:00. | |
change, but by a contestant on Ant and Dec's new game show who has won | :27:00. | :27:06. | |
a recorded �1.5 million in a prize. The man was said to have burst into | :27:06. | :27:10. | |
tears. Why? Well, of course, it is because the prize he really wanted | :27:10. | :27:15. | |
was something money can buy, the Daily Politics mug. If he is | :27:15. | :27:21. | |
watching, the good news is you have still got a chance. Ant and Dec, | :27:21. | :27:25. | |
well, they enter every week but they always get it wrong. | :27:25. | :27:29. | |
We could not fit that money in the Daily Politics mug! | :27:29. | :27:39. | |
:27:39. | :27:41. | ||
Can you remember when this # We didn't start the fire at... | :27:41. | :27:46. | |
Bitsy Mr me that Islamic fundamentalists could do with a | :27:46. | :27:56. | |
:27:56. | :28:11. | ||
little criticism. # She drives me crazy. | :28:11. | :28:17. | |
# Like no one else. John Major is an excellent man and | :28:17. | :28:27. | |
:28:27. | :28:32. | ||
I've got better things to do than listen to them all day long, to be | :28:32. | :28:42. | |
:28:42. | :28:49. | ||
honest with you. We will just have And to be in with a chance of | :28:49. | :28:52. | |
winning a Daily Politics mug, send your answer to our special e-mail | :28:52. | :28:58. | |
address: You can see the full terms and conditions for Guess The Year | :28:58. | :29:04. | |
on our website. Coming up to midday, let's have a | :29:04. | :29:12. | |
look at Big Ben. I think it is Tower. It can only mean one thing, | :29:12. | :29:14. | |
Prime Minister's Questions is on its way. Nick Robinson is here. | :29:14. | :29:19. | |
Welcome back. I know you had a tough time in Mexico. Someone had | :29:19. | :29:25. | |
to go! Go to a beach in the hot sunshine in Mexico when working | :29:25. | :29:29. | |
days finish at three in the afternoon and I said, "A few | :29:29. | :29:36. | |
forcemeat". We are grateful that he went. -- if you force me. Talk | :29:36. | :29:42. | |
about welfare reform, cuts, hints about a referendum on the UKIP. -- | :29:42. | :29:47. | |
on the EU. Can I throw out for discussion that what the Prime | :29:47. | :29:49. | |
Minister is doing right and is more to do with party management and | :29:49. | :29:53. | |
government. Getting the Tory papers back onside after the omnishambles | :29:53. | :29:59. | |
budget, getting the backbenchers onside before the summer, certainly | :29:59. | :30:03. | |
giving Conservatives something to say about what they do, what they | :30:03. | :30:07. | |
would do if they were not in a coalition, but remember, something | :30:07. | :30:10. | |
like welfare reform is popular, at least in theory, with people across | :30:10. | :30:15. | |
the spectrum. I pointed out a poll the other day, 59% of Labour voters | :30:15. | :30:19. | |
said the benefits system was too generous. Yes, he is trying to | :30:19. | :30:24. | |
rebuild support. There was a drop in his poll ratings since the | :30:24. | :30:28. | |
Budget. Yes, he is doing that. Maybe we will get a knighthood for | :30:28. | :30:35. | |
David Beckham? As a matter of principle! And what is your reading, | :30:35. | :30:39. | |
are we in a position yet to know how big the rebellion on the Tory | :30:39. | :30:43. | |
backbenchers will be when it comes to this programmed motion? I don't | :30:43. | :30:46. | |
think we do know the numbers because we do not know what the | :30:46. | :30:51. | |
Bill is yet. We know roughly, but no, I do not think we know the | :30:51. | :30:54. | |
scale. It could be on the referendum. Straight over to the | :30:54. | :31:03. | |
This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and I will | :31:03. | :31:13. | |
:31:13. | :31:15. | ||
have further meetings later today. Isn't it is stupid to vote for | :31:15. | :31:22. | |
House of Lords reform but against the programme motion? | :31:22. | :31:28. | |
I think my honourable friend makes a very important point. We have | :31:28. | :31:33. | |
been discussing this issue for 100 years, and it really is time to | :31:33. | :31:37. | |
make progress. The truth of the matter is this, the Iraqi opponents | :31:37. | :31:46. | |
of Lords reform in every party -- there are opponents. But there is a | :31:46. | :31:51. | |
majority in this House for an elected House of Lords and I | :31:51. | :31:54. | |
believe there is a majority for that in the country. If those who | :31:54. | :31:58. | |
support Lords reform don't get out there and back it it will not | :31:58. | :32:04. | |
happen, that is the crucial point. It is absolutely hopeless in life | :32:04. | :32:08. | |
and in politics to do what the right honourable gentleman is | :32:08. | :32:11. | |
giving which is to say he is in favour of it and also against it, | :32:11. | :32:21. | |
:32:21. | :32:28. | ||
it is hopeless. The Prime Minister said on 11th | :32:28. | :32:35. | |
April, "I will defend every part of that budget, I worked on it very | :32:35. | :32:45. | |
:32:45. | :32:46. | ||
closely with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, line byline." what went | :32:46. | :32:53. | |
wrong? The fuel duty increase was a Labour | :32:53. | :33:02. | |
tax rise. It cannot be a U-turn to get rid of a Labour tax increase. | :33:03. | :33:11. | |
They put in place 12 increases on fuel duty in government, they left | :33:11. | :33:14. | |
behind six increases in fuel duty and I am proud of the fact we are | :33:14. | :33:21. | |
dealing with them. It was all part of a seamless | :33:21. | :33:27. | |
political strategy. And fortunately they forgot to tell the Transport | :33:27. | :33:30. | |
Secretary he went out and defended the increase, they forgot to tell | :33:30. | :33:34. | |
the Cabinet in the morning, though the Chancellor briefed them on the | :33:34. | :33:39. | |
economic situation, and they forgot to tell their own backbone -- | :33:39. | :33:41. | |
backbenchers and said about to defend the old policy. Let's call | :33:42. | :33:47. | |
it what it is, another case of panic at the pumps. And a month | :33:47. | :33:51. | |
after month, every time this side of the House has proposed putting | :33:51. | :33:58. | |
more money in people's pockets to get the economy moving, he has | :33:58. | :34:01. | |
denounced the policy as irresponsible. Yesterday the | :34:01. | :34:05. | |
Chancellor said it was about precisely doing that, why doesn't | :34:05. | :34:11. | |
he admitted, plan a has failed? -- admit it. | :34:11. | :34:18. | |
Does he support stopping the fuel increase? Why not get up and | :34:18. | :34:21. | |
congratulate the Government for being on the side of the motorist | :34:21. | :34:26. | |
and the people who work hard and do the right thing. That is he we are | :34:26. | :34:30. | |
helping. I have to say to the right honourable gentleman, every stints | :34:30. | :34:37. | |
we came to office -- ever since we came to office, we have been | :34:37. | :34:42. | |
diffusing the increases. We have diffuse their increases in fuel tax. | :34:42. | :34:45. | |
They should be congratulating us for been on the side of those who | :34:45. | :34:51. | |
work hard and do the right thing. Back to the bunker after that | :34:51. | :34:56. | |
answer. Even on this Government's own measure of success, borrowing | :34:56. | :35:02. | |
went up yesterday. No wonder they want to change the exam system, the | :35:02. | :35:08. | |
Chancellor cannot get the matters right. Can he confirm that the | :35:08. | :35:12. | |
reason this government has had to borrow 3 billion of more, this time | :35:12. | :35:19. | |
last year, tax revenues are down, and the cost of economic failure of | :35:19. | :35:23. | |
going up, and it is all the result of double-dip recession made in | :35:23. | :35:29. | |
Downing Street? So on fuel tax he is against it | :35:29. | :35:33. | |
there he is in favour of it, and on borrowing he thinks it is too high | :35:33. | :35:40. | |
but wants to put it up? I think it is back to school. | :35:40. | :35:45. | |
I know he finds this shadow chancellor irritating, but he | :35:45. | :35:55. | |
:35:55. | :35:57. | ||
called for the fuel duty cut. The reality is, they are not just a | :35:57. | :36:01. | |
economically incompetent, they are unfair as well. He made 60 tense, | :36:01. | :36:08. | |
but not in two particular decisions -- 6 U-turns. The tax for | :36:08. | :36:14. | |
millionaires paid for by the tax rise on pensions. He says he has | :36:14. | :36:17. | |
been lifting to the electorate, what feedback has he had almost | :36:17. | :36:22. | |
proposals? -- listening to. The Shadow Chancellor was the man | :36:22. | :36:27. | |
who put the fuel tax increase into the budget in the first place. What | :36:27. | :36:31. | |
we have been doing is getting rid of Labour's tax increases. It asks | :36:31. | :36:37. | |
me about the top rate of tax, it is wrong to have the top rate of tax | :36:37. | :36:44. | |
higher than France, Germany, Italy. I make this point, for 13 years of | :36:44. | :36:48. | |
a Labour government, in which he said, the top rate of tax was 40p, | :36:48. | :36:56. | |
the top rate of tax will now be 45p. Again, affect you will be in order. | :36:56. | :37:00. | |
He claims to be proud of the weight the decision on the fuel tax was | :37:00. | :37:05. | |
made, the Chancellor had a way yesterday refusing to answer on the | :37:05. | :37:13. | |
decision. -- hid away. No wonder the Chancellor yesterday said that | :37:13. | :37:18. | |
the economic Secretary to do all the interviews. It is no wonder the | :37:18. | :37:22. | |
Member for Mid Bedfordshire said this. I didn't see Newsnight but if | :37:22. | :37:27. | |
Osborne sent clearly on he is a coward as well as arrogant -- said | :37:27. | :37:34. | |
Chloe Smith. There is no change on the tax cut for millionaires. | :37:34. | :37:37. | |
Doesn't the Prime Minister realise what people hate about this | :37:37. | :37:41. | |
government is the double standards of them saying tax avoidance is | :37:41. | :37:47. | |
immoral, but it is OK when so many people are struggling to get by 2 | :37:47. | :37:52. | |
1/2 -- give a tax-cut to millionaires -- struggling to get | :37:52. | :37:55. | |
by, to give a tax-cut to millionaires. | :37:55. | :38:00. | |
He says the Chancellor was hiding away. He was announcing this tax | :38:00. | :38:07. | |
reduction from the dispatch box. I know, Mr Speaker, the House of | :38:08. | :38:12. | |
Commons doesn't always get reported, but he was actually here making the | :38:12. | :38:15. | |
announcement and I have to say completely wrong-footing the Shadow | :38:15. | :38:19. | |
Chancellor. What we have heard today from the Leader of the | :38:19. | :38:25. | |
Opposition is a whole series of arguments about process. Process | :38:25. | :38:28. | |
about the House of Lords where he is wrong on the substance, process | :38:28. | :38:32. | |
about the economy where he is wrong on the substance, process about the | :38:32. | :38:37. | |
deficit when he wants to but the borrowing up, absolutely hopeless. | :38:38. | :38:42. | |
It is about an economic plan that is failing and about the unfairness | :38:42. | :38:46. | |
of this government. The unfairness of this government, he talks about | :38:46. | :38:51. | |
the tax affairs of Jimmy Carr, he is giving a tax cut to millionaires | :38:51. | :38:56. | |
of �40,000 per year across this country. Including in his own | :38:56. | :39:00. | |
Cabinet. When it comes to tax it is obviously one rule for the | :39:00. | :39:10. | |
:39:10. | :39:13. | ||
comedians and another role for the comedians in the Cabinet. The Prime | :39:13. | :39:17. | |
Minister has spent the last week blundering into the tax affairs of | :39:17. | :39:22. | |
Jimmy Carr, his budget unravelling, economic plan failing, from the | :39:22. | :39:25. | |
country. Did you it is a shambles, from his point of view it is just | :39:25. | :39:35. | |
:39:35. | :39:35. | ||
another week in the office -- from the country's pointed you. | :39:35. | :39:40. | |
The Prime Minister's answer will be heard. | :39:40. | :39:43. | |
I am not at all surprised the honourable gentleman is touchy | :39:43. | :39:46. | |
about the issue of tax avoidance because to have they just voted to | :39:46. | :39:51. | |
the top of the list of the National Executive Committee, Ken | :39:51. | :39:56. | |
Livingstone. It is this government that is cracking down on aggressive | :39:56. | :40:00. | |
and illegal tax avoidance and tax evasion and it is their party | :40:00. | :40:10. | |
:40:10. | :40:10. | ||
voting for them. Sir Malcolm Bruce. The International Development | :40:10. | :40:14. | |
Committee spent the last week in Afghanistan and would pay tribute | :40:14. | :40:18. | |
to the dedication of our armed forces and civil servants working | :40:18. | :40:21. | |
under difficult conditions but will the Prime Minister at the Tokyo | :40:22. | :40:25. | |
conference next month's reassure the people of Afghanistan although | :40:25. | :40:32. | |
the troupe brought down in 24 team, advice and assistance will be there | :40:33. | :40:41. | |
for years be on that so it can become a functioning state? | :40:41. | :40:45. | |
To date is the day we encourage people who served to wear a uniform | :40:45. | :40:49. | |
to work, not something members of this House could do, but we should | :40:49. | :40:52. | |
remember all those who serve our country, whether in the reserves or | :40:52. | :40:56. | |
the regular forces. On the issue of support for Afghanistan we have | :40:56. | :41:00. | |
already merged we will continue with a generous level of aid and | :41:00. | :41:04. | |
development support we are giving to Afghanistan after 2015, we have | :41:04. | :41:07. | |
very much been leading the charge on that, as well as helping to fund | :41:07. | :41:11. | |
the build-up of the Afghan national security forces between now and | :41:11. | :41:16. | |
2015. Can I ask the Prime Minister what | :41:16. | :41:21. | |
is the moral difference between celebrities avoiding tax, and a | :41:21. | :41:28. | |
Cabinet of millionaires cutting tax to benefit themselves? | :41:28. | :41:33. | |
Perhaps the best way to answer that question is to quote her own leader | :41:33. | :41:36. | |
who said this. At the launch of his local election campaign tax | :41:36. | :41:40. | |
avoidance is a terrible thing, it must be cracked down on. That is | :41:40. | :41:44. | |
what I thought was the official position of the Labour Party, they | :41:44. | :41:51. | |
should be thanking us for getting on and doing just that. | :41:52. | :41:55. | |
In welcoming the decision not to increase fuel duty does the Prime | :41:55. | :41:59. | |
Minister think this shows hard- pressed families and businesses we | :41:59. | :42:05. | |
mean business about refuelling growth? | :42:05. | :42:08. | |
The honourable lady is absolutely right. It is his government that | :42:08. | :42:12. | |
has taken 2 million people out of income back -- it is this | :42:12. | :42:17. | |
government that has taken 2 million people out of income tax. It has | :42:17. | :42:23. | |
repeatedly Delworth fuel duty so it is 10p less than it would be under | :42:23. | :42:30. | |
the plans left to us by the last Labour government. -- repeatedly | :42:30. | :42:34. | |
reduced fuel duty. One way in which the Prime Minister | :42:34. | :42:38. | |
could put an end to the aggressive tax-avoidance schemes is to | :42:38. | :42:44. | |
legislate for a general anti- avoidance, not a general rule, will | :42:44. | :42:48. | |
he make one more U-turn and back up his expression of public outrage | :42:48. | :42:55. | |
with real action and legislate for a general anti-avoidance principle? | :42:56. | :42:58. | |
Legislating on a general anti- avoidance rule is exactly what we | :42:58. | :43:01. | |
are doing, exactly what Labour didn't do for 13 years and they | :43:01. | :43:09. | |
look forward to welcoming him into our division lobbies. | :43:09. | :43:17. | |
Unemployment in my constituency has reduced by 5.7% in the last year. | :43:17. | :43:21. | |
Can this government work to reduce unemployment and make sure we are | :43:21. | :43:25. | |
focusing on that type of things, unlike the other party who have had | :43:25. | :43:34. | |
no solution to the economic issue. What part of a additional growth | :43:34. | :43:40. | |
will come from new businesses? What is this government doing to | :43:40. | :43:43. | |
encourage teaching enterprise in schools to nurture the next | :43:43. | :43:47. | |
generation of entrepreneurs? It is quite clear at the party | :43:47. | :43:52. | |
opposite just want to shout down anyone who wants to talk up what is | :43:52. | :43:57. | |
happening in our economy. The fact is, in the last quarter we saw | :43:57. | :44:00. | |
200,000 new private sector jobs which was more than four times the | :44:00. | :44:05. | |
rate of growth we saw in terms of the decline in the public sector. | :44:05. | :44:09. | |
We are seeing a rebalancing of our economy and intense of small | :44:10. | :44:13. | |
business in 2011 it was a record year for the creation of new small | :44:13. | :44:17. | |
businesses in our country and on the side of the House we are in | :44:17. | :44:23. | |
favour of encouraging that. The coalition agreement stated that | :44:23. | :44:26. | |
the government would introduce a House business committee by the | :44:26. | :44:31. | |
third year of this Parliament, would the Prime Minister confirmed | :44:31. | :44:35. | |
to the House he will introduce it within the next 12 months? | :44:35. | :44:40. | |
We are looking carefully at this issue. Can I just say to the | :44:40. | :44:44. | |
honourable gentleman he served as a minister and a backbench MP, | :44:45. | :44:49. | |
already this government by introducing the backbench business | :44:49. | :44:52. | |
has made one of the most fundamental reform -- reforms of | :44:52. | :44:58. | |
the space. Backbench members are all unable to -- able to determine | :44:58. | :45:02. | |
the time and subject of debate, something that never happened under | :45:02. | :45:12. | |
:45:12. | :45:15. | ||
No. 6, please, Mr Speaker. Gift Aid is an important way to support | :45:15. | :45:19. | |
charitable giving. We know there can be difficulties for charities | :45:19. | :45:22. | |
to collect Gift Aid declarations, for example when they are | :45:22. | :45:26. | |
collecting donations in the street. That is why we are introducing the | :45:26. | :45:30. | |
small donations scheme and the scheme will enable charities to | :45:30. | :45:34. | |
claim a gift style payment of one donations where it has not been | :45:34. | :45:38. | |
possible to collect a declaration. That will help charities in many | :45:38. | :45:44. | |
parts and be welcome on all sides of the House. Community hospitals | :45:44. | :45:49. | |
across Britain benefit greatly through their friends from gift Aid | :45:49. | :45:53. | |
donations. Could the Prime Minister reassure all those who give so | :45:53. | :45:56. | |
generously that the equipment and facilities they fund will be | :45:56. | :45:59. | |
guaranteed to remain for the benefit of local health communities | :45:59. | :46:03. | |
and could I invite him to visit a community hospital in my | :46:03. | :46:09. | |
constituency to see Gift Aid in action? I have visited a community | :46:09. | :46:12. | |
hospital in her constituency while having a holiday in her | :46:12. | :46:18. | |
constituency so why has some experience of the excellent service | :46:18. | :46:23. | |
provided in South Devon. It -- so I have some. Legal friends to a | :46:23. | :46:25. | |
brilliant job across the country and the money they provide for that | :46:25. | :46:30. | |
equipment should remain local. The gift Aid changed that we have | :46:30. | :46:35. | |
announced should help hospitals and people like the ones she refers to. | :46:35. | :46:40. | |
He has not had time to reach a judgement on the tax affairs on | :46:40. | :46:44. | |
Gary Barlow but he has had years to consider those of massive | :46:44. | :46:47. | |
Conservative donor Lord Ashcroft. Are they morally wrong, like Jimmy | :46:47. | :46:55. | |
Carr? Like all members of both Houses of Parliament, all peers | :46:55. | :47:00. | |
have to be full UK taxpayers, that is a change I fully support. While | :47:00. | :47:04. | |
we are on this subject, he may want to have a little look at Labour's | :47:04. | :47:11. | |
chief fund raiser, in man called Andrew Rosenfeld, who between the | :47:11. | :47:17. | |
years of 2006 and 2011, he lived in which key marginal seat? Anyone? | :47:17. | :47:27. | |
:47:27. | :47:28. | ||
Anyone? Zurich. Would my right honourable friend take this | :47:28. | :47:32. | |
opportunity... Order. The honourable gentleman deserves to be | :47:32. | :47:38. | |
heard. There has been too much noise today. It is discourteous. | :47:38. | :47:41. | |
Thank you, Mr Speaker. Would my honourable friend take this | :47:41. | :47:44. | |
opportunity to remind the House that there is a crucial EU summit | :47:44. | :47:49. | |
at the end of this week? Which is more important for UK growth and | :47:49. | :47:55. | |
jobs? The implications of these massive changes or House of Lords | :47:55. | :48:01. | |
reform? Clearly in terms of growth in the UK economy, what is | :48:02. | :48:04. | |
happening in the Eurozone and what is happening in Europe is extremely | :48:04. | :48:08. | |
important and it is a vital summit that is taking place on this | :48:08. | :48:12. | |
Thursday and Friday. The UK government has a clear view which | :48:12. | :48:17. | |
is that Eurozone countries need to do more in the short term to settle | :48:17. | :48:20. | |
the financial instability in the market, but they also need to take | :48:20. | :48:23. | |
Meechan and longer term steps to make sense of the Eurozone. That | :48:23. | :48:27. | |
will involve them sharing greater powers. That is something that the | :48:27. | :48:31. | |
UK should not be involved in. I think we have a clear view. I think | :48:31. | :48:35. | |
we push forward arguments with great vigour and we will protect | :48:35. | :48:41. | |
and defend the economy and political system at the same time. | :48:42. | :48:49. | |
Every hour of every day somebody gets killed by a weapon that has | :48:49. | :48:54. | |
been irresponsibly treated from one country to another. Next week, the | :48:54. | :48:58. | |
arms trade treaty negotiations start in New York. Will the Prime | :48:58. | :49:01. | |
Minister make sure and guarantee that the British delegation will | :49:01. | :49:05. | |
fight for the inclusion in the treaty not only of police and | :49:05. | :49:09. | |
security apparatus that can be used for internal repression but also of | :49:09. | :49:15. | |
ammunition, which is vital. It is bullet that killed. As the | :49:15. | :49:18. | |
honourable gentleman knows, we backed the arms trade treaty and | :49:18. | :49:22. | |
have done for a considerable amount of time. We lobbied vigorously on | :49:22. | :49:27. | |
that issue. I will look at the specific point and write to him. | :49:27. | :49:35. | |
Friday night, three times in my a area were subject to flooding when | :49:35. | :49:40. | |
two rivers broke their banks at the same time. Would my right | :49:40. | :49:43. | |
honourable friend to join me in congratulating the emergency | :49:43. | :49:46. | |
services for working through the night and particularly the | :49:46. | :49:49. | |
residents of Crawshawbooth who came out in the morning to clean up the | :49:49. | :49:53. | |
village show it was able to welcomed the Olympic torch 12 hours | :49:53. | :49:59. | |
later? -- so it was able. I joined my honourable friend embracing the | :49:59. | :50:04. | |
emergency services. These were dangerous and damaging floods, cos | :50:04. | :50:10. | |
by rainfall over a short period time. Emergency services performed | :50:10. | :50:14. | |
admirably. Now we're in the recovery phase where people start | :50:14. | :50:18. | |
to look at going back into their homes. There will be questions | :50:18. | :50:21. | |
about insurance and how we can help. I'm sure he will make these | :50:21. | :50:26. | |
arguments and the Government will do all it can to help. Will the | :50:27. | :50:31. | |
Prime Minister finally answer the question why this year to date his | :50:31. | :50:36. | |
government have actually borrowed �3.9 billion more than they did | :50:36. | :50:42. | |
this time last year? The deficit that he left and his party left, | :50:42. | :50:47. | |
the deficit is down by a quarter. The policy that he supports is to | :50:47. | :50:56. | |
spend more, to borrow more and put the debt up even further. Godwin | :50:56. | :51:02. | |
Lawson, 17, from Enfield was tragically stabbed to death in 2010. | :51:02. | :51:08. | |
Since then, his mother has become a powerful force for challenging the | :51:08. | :51:13. | |
culture of knife crime. By sharing her experiences of her son's death | :51:13. | :51:20. | |
with young people. Like many on the front line of knife crime, she can | :51:20. | :51:23. | |
make an extraordinary contribution to challenging this culture but | :51:23. | :51:26. | |
some authorities are not yet getting behind supporting and | :51:27. | :51:30. | |
offering some funding to achieve this. Would the Prime Minister lent | :51:30. | :51:35. | |
his support and encouragement to those people to get behind the | :51:35. | :51:43. | |
issue? I were a certain the day of my support to Mrs Laursen and those | :51:43. | :51:47. | |
others playing such a heroic role in changing the culture of knife | :51:47. | :51:51. | |
crime in our country. It is worth remembering that this year, Ben | :51:51. | :51:55. | |
Kinsella would have been 21. I pay tribute to Brooke Kinsella and all | :51:55. | :51:59. | |
the families who, in many ways it would be easier for them to turn | :51:59. | :52:04. | |
away from the tragedy that robbed them of their family members, but | :52:04. | :52:06. | |
instead they campaign and show immense bravery, raising the | :52:06. | :52:10. | |
profile of this issue. The Government must play its part by | :52:10. | :52:13. | |
making sure there are mandatory sentences and we who are and have | :52:14. | :52:20. | |
done that. -- and we have done that. Frankly, the bravery of those who | :52:20. | :52:24. | |
have lost loved ones talking about it in schools can play a huge role | :52:24. | :52:30. | |
in changing the culture. The Prime Minister will be aware of the | :52:30. | :52:34. | |
horrific explosion that occurred in my constituency yesterday. I am | :52:34. | :52:39. | |
sure the whole House will want to pay tribute and mourn the death of | :52:39. | :52:45. | |
the two-year-old, and would want to send best wishes to the burns | :52:45. | :52:51. | |
victim as well. Would he join me in paying tribute to the work of the | :52:51. | :52:55. | |
emergency services that attended the event, which I witnessed first | :52:55. | :52:58. | |
hand, and also be contingency Red Cross service. Will he agree that | :52:58. | :53:02. | |
we should never take for granted the courage and bravery of our | :53:02. | :53:07. | |
servicemen and women? I think the honourable lady is right to Speaker | :53:07. | :53:10. | |
she does and a house will want to send a message of sympathy and | :53:10. | :53:14. | |
condolences to the family of that poor child. And also our best | :53:14. | :53:17. | |
wishes to the burns victim who is in hospital being treated at the | :53:17. | :53:22. | |
moment. The scenes were quite appalling to see on our televisions. | :53:22. | :53:26. | |
I certainly join her in paying tribute to the emergency services | :53:26. | :53:29. | |
and also wish all speed to the police to get to the bottom of | :53:29. | :53:33. | |
anything that might have happened here. Everyone will require answers | :53:33. | :53:40. | |
to what has been an absolute charge today. -- absolute tragedy. The | :53:40. | :53:45. | |
flood victims Facebook Page and the just giving page shows great giving | :53:45. | :53:51. | |
spirit. Also events going ahead this weekend shows the community is | :53:51. | :53:56. | |
resilient. Also, it shows that my constituency is open for village -- | :53:56. | :54:00. | |
for business. Can my honourable friend update our flooded | :54:00. | :54:03. | |
communities on how negotiations are going with the insurance industry | :54:03. | :54:08. | |
so that they can get insurance in the future at a reasonable price? | :54:08. | :54:12. | |
understand why my friend Mike wants to raise this issue. I believe | :54:12. | :54:17. | |
there were over 550 properties -- 550 properties affected by these | :54:18. | :54:21. | |
damaging floods in his constituency. On the issue of flood insurance we | :54:21. | :54:26. | |
will work hard with the industry to deliver widely available and | :54:26. | :54:31. | |
affordable household insurance in flood rest -- areas at risk from | :54:31. | :54:37. | |
flood. Having suffered as my constituency supper in 2007, while | :54:37. | :54:39. | |
the recovery is extremely difficult, the resilience of communities and | :54:40. | :54:43. | |
the amount of public and community service that comes out of our | :54:43. | :54:50. | |
communities is remarkable. 20 years ago this week, the | :54:50. | :54:54. | |
Ravenscraig steelworks in my constituency was closed. Thousands | :54:54. | :54:58. | |
of steelmaking jobs were lost and sadly many of my former steel | :54:58. | :55:03. | |
making colleagues never found work again. 20 years on, will the Prime | :55:03. | :55:07. | |
Minister apologise for his party's shameful role in the demise of the | :55:07. | :55:12. | |
Scottish steel industry? I'm sorry for every job that has been lost in | :55:12. | :55:15. | |
manufacturing or very very long period of time but what I would say | :55:15. | :55:19. | |
is that while manufacturing as a share of the economy almost halved | :55:19. | :55:23. | |
under the last government, that share is now increasing and in | :55:23. | :55:26. | |
terms of the steel industry, I think it is worth recognising that | :55:26. | :55:29. | |
under this Government, the steel industry has started again on | :55:29. | :55:35. | |
Teesside and that is something the House should a plot. | :55:35. | :55:40. | |
-- should applaud. Hereford is the home of the SAS and July 19th will | :55:40. | :55:44. | |
be the 40th anniversary of the battle in which nine SAS soldiers | :55:44. | :55:51. | |
fought off more than 300 heavily armed guerrillas. During the battle, | :55:51. | :55:56. | |
one individual was shot while operating a 25 pound field gun, a | :55:56. | :56:01. | |
weapon designed for a six-man team. Successive governments have | :56:01. | :56:03. | |
declined to recognise the extraordinary nature of his | :56:03. | :56:08. | |
sacrifice. The SAS have minnies -- have many heroes but will the Prime | :56:08. | :56:13. | |
Minister gave his support to the campaign to get the Sergeant | :56:13. | :56:19. | |
awarded the posture Ms Victoria Cross that he so clearly earned? | :56:19. | :56:23. | |
think my honourable friend is right to speak up for the ICS. -- | :56:23. | :56:29. | |
posthumous Victoria Cross. We are not allowed to speak much about | :56:29. | :56:32. | |
what they do on the record, but it is worth putting on the record the | :56:32. | :56:35. | |
immense gratitude of all government and the entire British people to | :56:35. | :56:39. | |
the risks they take on our behalf. Thinking of the hostage rescue, I | :56:39. | :56:44. | |
would like to do that personally. In terms of the question that he | :56:44. | :56:47. | |
asks, I do not think these sorts of decisions are for politicians to | :56:47. | :56:51. | |
make but let me pay tribute to the heroic actions of Batman and | :56:51. | :56:58. | |
everyone involved on that day. -- heroic actions of that man. | :56:58. | :57:03. | |
Is the Prime Minister bringing back all levels? What the Education | :57:03. | :57:07. | |
Secretary explained in detail yesterday is that we want to have | :57:07. | :57:13. | |
an absolute gold standard of exams in our country that are about | :57:13. | :57:17. | |
rigour and high standards. The tragedy is that what we inherited | :57:17. | :57:21. | |
from the last government was a system that was being progressively | :57:21. | :57:25. | |
dumbed down, where Britain was falling down the league tables and | :57:25. | :57:30. | |
GCSE questions included things like "How do you see the moon? Through a | :57:30. | :57:35. | |
telescope or a microscope?" On this side of the House, we believe we | :57:35. | :57:42. | |
need a rigorous system. exciting space science and | :57:42. | :57:45. | |
technology park in my constituency richly deserves the conditional | :57:45. | :57:50. | |
regional growth fund approval which will secure a vital job -- vital | :57:50. | :57:55. | |
jobs and inward investment into the UK and also harmonise with the | :57:55. | :57:59. | |
Government's own welcome and critical commitment to space growth, | :57:59. | :58:04. | |
will be Prime Minister please use his influence to ensure that there | :58:04. | :58:08. | |
is no further of for a double delay in implementation of the grant and | :58:08. | :58:12. | |
the launch of this critical important enterprise? I will look | :58:12. | :58:17. | |
carefully at what my honourable friend says. 60% of regional growth | :58:17. | :58:21. | |
fund projects are now underway. The money has been distributed in many | :58:21. | :58:24. | |
cases but I will look specifically at this project which sounds | :58:24. | :58:29. | |
interesting and worthwhile involving radio astronomy and | :58:29. | :58:32. | |
Satellite Management. These are hi- tech jobs for Cornwall and I know | :58:32. | :58:35. | |
that is something that Cornwall needs. I will do my best to make | :58:35. | :58:41. | |
sure that happens. One third of health care trust | :58:41. | :58:49. | |
deficit in my region is due to the wrong to suggest the entire deficit | :58:49. | :58:52. | |
is due to the PFI? Should not be working to deal with that situation | :58:52. | :58:55. | |
rather than imposing out stride administrators to cut local health | :58:55. | :59:01. | |
services? -- outside administrators. First of all, it is his government | :59:01. | :59:04. | |
to is putting more money into the NHS this year, next year and the | :59:04. | :59:08. | |
year after. Some of these NHS trusts like the one he mentions | :59:08. | :59:12. | |
have enormous deficits and a large part of that is down to the | :59:12. | :59:19. | |
completely failed PFIs systems that the last government put in place. - | :59:19. | :59:24. | |
- PFIs systems. Hospitals up and down the country, it costs �120 to | :59:24. | :59:29. | |
reset and alarm, �466 to replace a light fitting. They're shouting | :59:29. | :59:33. | |
that these were conservative PFIs but they were not. Everyone was put | :59:33. | :59:40. | |
in place under a Labour government. Yet again, time for a apology. | :59:40. | :59:45. | |
-- an apology. Does the Prime Minister agree that the way to | :59:45. | :59:52. | |
tackle aggressive tax avoidance is to bring in flatter, fairer taxes? | :59:52. | :59:58. | |
I certainly support flatter, fairer taxes and that is why we have a -- | :59:58. | :00:01. | |
we have 2 million people taking out of income tax, a Laura Trott rate | :00:02. | :00:05. | |
of tax to make us competitive with the rest of the world. It is | :00:05. | :00:09. | |
important to put this on the record. Tax evasion is a legal and wrong | :00:09. | :00:14. | |
and should be chased down but as the Chancellor has sent, some of | :00:14. | :00:17. | |
the tax avoidance schemes that have been put in place in recent years | :00:17. | :00:22. | |
are, in my view, very questionable, and the government should declare | :00:22. | :00:27. | |
that the Revenue's' task is to close those down and make sure that | :00:27. | :00:37. | |
In December last year this House passed a motion calling for a bill | :00:37. | :00:39. | |
to make urgent reforms to our deeply unfair extradition treaties. | :00:39. | :00:43. | |
Seven months later, there is still no bill and no action. What makes | :00:43. | :00:46. | |
the Prime Minister more uncomfortable, ignoring the will of | :00:46. | :00:52. | |
the House for months on end or the plight of those facing imminent | :00:52. | :00:56. | |
extradition? We held the Scott Baker review and it looked | :00:56. | :00:59. | |
carefully at extradition arrangements. I would urge the | :00:59. | :01:02. | |
honourable lady to look at the cases that are causing concern but | :01:02. | :01:06. | |
also at the overall figures, where we are benefiting by being able to | :01:07. | :01:10. | |
extradite people that committed serious crimes from the US back | :01:10. | :01:14. | |
into the UK. We continue to look at this and we will do the right thing | :01:14. | :01:21. | |
for our country, but do not think it is a simple issue. It is not. | :01:21. | :01:26. | |
Would the Prime Minister congratulate the excellent | :01:26. | :01:31. | |
Secretary of State for International Development for | :01:31. | :01:36. | |
producing a flag that will replace the European Union's logo on all | :01:36. | :01:43. | |
our overseas aid? He should be thoroughly congratulated. I am sure | :01:43. | :01:47. | |
that like myself, my honourable friend and indeed probably Mrs Ben, | :01:47. | :01:52. | |
we got the dear colleague letter with this excellent new logo. It | :01:52. | :01:55. | |
shows that the aid that we send is not on behalf of the British | :01:55. | :02:00. | |
Government. It is on behalf of all of the British people, who I think | :02:00. | :02:02. | |
support the fact that Britain stands for something in the world | :02:03. | :02:05. | |
and stands up for helping the poorest in our world even when we | :02:05. | :02:15. | |
:02:15. | :02:16. | ||
have a difficult time in our own PMQs comes to an end on time this | :02:16. | :02:19. | |
week! That is why we are slightly discombobulated with no idea what | :02:20. | :02:28. | |
to say. That will be a first! we do. Mr Miliband went strongly on | :02:28. | :02:30. | |
the latest U-turn on the fuel crisis, adding together all the | :02:30. | :02:35. | |
previous ones and going on the economy. Mr Cameron pretty much on | :02:35. | :02:38. | |
the back foot a number of times on that as the Labour leader went on | :02:38. | :02:43. | |
the offensive. We will analyse that in a moment, but what did you think | :02:43. | :02:48. | |
first? There were emails on fuel duty and House of Lords reform. | :02:48. | :02:52. | |
Another poor week from Mr Cameron. Mr Miliband had an open goal on the | :02:52. | :02:55. | |
shambles of the Budget and hammered the ball firmly into the back of | :02:55. | :02:59. | |
the Tory net. I would imagine for Mr Cameron the summer recess cannot | :02:59. | :03:05. | |
come soon enough. And this, a good performance from Ed Miliband with | :03:05. | :03:10. | |
David Cameron on the back foot. We need economic growth in the UK to | :03:10. | :03:14. | |
re-establish their credibility. But this from George in Dudley. Ed | :03:14. | :03:17. | |
Miliband is pathetic, tried to pretend that Labour are the friends | :03:17. | :03:25. | |
of the taxpayer, what rubbish. I don't recall Ed Miliband and Ed | :03:25. | :03:31. | |
Balls as rushing to demand the 50p tax rule as unfair. And this, | :03:31. | :03:35. | |
instead of points scorer across the despatch box, can Ed Miliband | :03:35. | :03:39. | |
please tell the electorate what is planned for the economy is? Perhaps | :03:39. | :03:49. | |
:03:49. | :03:52. | ||
that is not the place where he would do that. Our MPs are elected | :03:52. | :03:56. | |
and do not have the history of blowing morality so be careful what | :03:56. | :04:01. | |
you wish for. I am awful careful of what I wish for and I hardly wish | :04:01. | :04:11. | |
for anything! Almost every week now, some part of the Budget and raffles, | :04:11. | :04:20. | |
does a U-turn. -- unravels. We keep waiting for things to turn, to go | :04:20. | :04:25. | |
the Government's Way again, but it seems to meet that this could | :04:25. | :04:29. | |
continue to the summer recess and it cannot come soon enough. The day | :04:29. | :04:32. | |
after announcing something that is hugely popular, giving people some | :04:32. | :04:36. | |
money back, giving motorists that of feeling hard pressed some money | :04:36. | :04:40. | |
back, the Prime Minister is on the back foot. Good jokes from Mr | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
Miliband, panic at the pumps and so on. Good performance from the | :04:44. | :04:48. | |
Labour leader. But he has got two open goals that he is scoring in | :04:49. | :04:52. | |
today. On the one hand, he can say it is a shambolic, Government that | :04:52. | :04:58. | |
does not know what it is doing, changing its mind. And on the other | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
hand, he is able, less successfully, but making some progress and he | :05:01. | :05:06. | |
will be pleased with that, to say that this indicates that you | :05:06. | :05:09. | |
economic plan is not working because borrowing is up and yet you | :05:09. | :05:13. | |
are spending money, which is what Labour argued. It is quite bad news | :05:13. | :05:16. | |
for a Government when you are doing something that most people want you | :05:16. | :05:20. | |
to do but then one day later people are watching you struggle a bit. | :05:20. | :05:28. | |
There is a problem for the coalition. It is timing. When this | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
coalition had its first Budget in June of 2010, it said we need five | :05:32. | :05:37. | |
years to sort out the deficit. Then by the pre-Budget statement in | :05:37. | :05:40. | |
November of last year, the Chancellor said that he needed | :05:40. | :05:45. | |
another two, so seven. Since then we have had both the Governor of | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
the Bank of England and the Chief Secretary to the Cabinet saying | :05:49. | :05:54. | |
that actually it could take a decade, to 2020. The problem for | :05:54. | :05:58. | |
the coalition at the moment is that it is austerity for the foreseeable | :05:58. | :06:02. | |
future. I do not think you can underestimate the size of the | :06:02. | :06:07. | |
problem that we have inherited here. I think that the fact that we have | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
to take the sort of actions that we are taking is absolutely right. I | :06:10. | :06:13. | |
think that is what people in the country respect, Government taking | :06:13. | :06:18. | |
tough decisions. But you did underestimated. You said it would | :06:18. | :06:21. | |
be five years and now you have changed it to seven and there is | :06:21. | :06:29. | |
talk from the Cabinet that it could be 10. So you did underestimate it | :06:29. | :06:34. | |
or you made it was. What we have got to do now is make sure the | :06:34. | :06:38. | |
right plans are in place to get spending under control. You say you | :06:38. | :06:42. | |
want to get spending under control. How much have you borrowed in this | :06:42. | :06:48. | |
financial year so far? Well, ultimately... How much have you | :06:48. | :06:52. | |
borrowed so far? What we have got to do is make sure that borrowing | :06:52. | :06:57. | |
is going down. So how much have you borrowed so far this year? What we | :06:57. | :07:02. | |
have done is cut the deficit by a quarter. No, you have cut last | :07:02. | :07:05. | |
year's deficit by a quarter compared to the year before. So far | :07:05. | :07:12. | |
this year you have borrowed �31 billion. That is �6.2 billion more | :07:12. | :07:18. | |
than you borrowed in April and May of the last financial year. So far | :07:18. | :07:22. | |
in this financial year you are not cutting the deficit at all. You are | :07:22. | :07:28. | |
actually borrowing more. Let's look at Labour's response to that. | :07:28. | :07:33. | |
and so my point. I will come to Labour in a minute. -- answer my | :07:33. | :07:38. | |
point. One of the main drivers his welfare. And one of the reasons | :07:39. | :07:41. | |
that welfare reforms are so important is to get the debt down | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
in the long term and cut the deficit in the short term. If you | :07:45. | :07:49. | |
are allowed to cut the deficit, then why is it the deficit rising | :07:49. | :07:53. | |
in this financial year? The deficit is still a continuing problem | :07:53. | :07:58. | |
because of the scale of the problem that we inherited. But you are | :07:58. | :08:02. | |
adding more. You are borrowing a lot more than they borrowed. What | :08:02. | :08:07. | |
we are trying to do, in tandem with the problems that we have inherited, | :08:07. | :08:10. | |
is to cut things like the welfare bill, to make sure that we have a | :08:11. | :08:14. | |
proper system in place. Remember that under the last Government | :08:14. | :08:18. | |
welfare increased by 50%. These are the sorts of things that do not | :08:18. | :08:22. | |
take 24 months to turn around, but much longer than that. I will ask | :08:22. | :08:26. | |
you one more time. If your aim is to cut the deficit, the central | :08:26. | :08:29. | |
plank of the coalition, why is borrowing rising in this financial | :08:29. | :08:34. | |
year? Because we need to make sure that we are giving even more to get | :08:34. | :08:38. | |
spending under control. The basic economics are there. So why is | :08:38. | :08:44. | |
current spending up 3.7% year on year if you are trying to cut | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
spending? Why is it up by 3.7%? know the answer is that we have to | :08:48. | :08:52. | |
wait for the reforms that we have put in place to really make a | :08:52. | :08:58. | |
difference to the sort of bills that we are getting through. 50% | :08:58. | :09:02. | |
increase in welfare reform. But why is Labour on that? They talk a good | :09:02. | :09:07. | |
talk but they are not actually supporting reductions in spending. | :09:07. | :09:10. | |
The difficulty that even Labour would face is not just that we are | :09:10. | :09:15. | |
where we are, but the eurozone looks like being a permanent drag | :09:15. | :09:18. | |
on the world economy, including Britain, for the foreseeable future. | :09:18. | :09:23. | |
We have another summit this week. We know it is going to do nothing | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
to meet the immediate demands. We can talk about fiscal union in the | :09:27. | :09:30. | |
years to come, even a federal Europe in 10 years' time, but as | :09:31. | :09:35. | |
long as a eurozone fails to get its act together and resolve the | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
situation, it is a permanent drag on the British economy, the | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
American economy, even the Chinese and Indian economies which are now | :09:42. | :09:46. | |
in trouble. Of course the eurozone will have an impact on the British | :09:46. | :09:49. | |
economy but it is simply not credible for the Government to | :09:49. | :09:53. | |
explain the fact that Britain is in a double-dip recession with an | :09:53. | :10:00. | |
attribution to the eurozone. It was emergency Budget of George Osborne | :10:00. | :10:03. | |
in 2010 which we argued, and there is accumulating evidence for this, | :10:03. | :10:08. | |
that choked of economic growth at a critical point. It is also when the | :10:08. | :10:12. | |
eurozone crisis really kicked off. But if you look at where the | :10:12. | :10:15. | |
economy was benefiting in terms of the stagnation that we have | :10:15. | :10:19. | |
witnessed, it was relying on exports to the eurozone during that | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
year even when stagnation was happening. The central point is | :10:22. | :10:26. | |
this. I believe the reason that we have seen extra borrowing from the | :10:26. | :10:30. | |
Conservatives, the fact that borrowing was higher yesterday, is | :10:30. | :10:33. | |
because the central economic judgment of George Osborne in 2010 | :10:33. | :10:36. | |
was that he could cut this deep this quickly and sustain aggregate | :10:36. | :10:42. | |
demand in the economy. But he has not cut. He believed the private | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
sector would pick up. What he has done is choked off the recovery. | :10:46. | :10:50. | |
Hang on. How much as public spending been cut since 2010? | :10:50. | :10:55. | |
is the question that you should ask Maria. I am asking you because you | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
said he has cut too much. reason borrowing is increasing is | :10:59. | :11:09. | |
:11:09. | :11:10. | ||
because so Ireland when it goes up, so the costs go up. -- because when | :11:10. | :11:15. | |
unemployment goes up. The tell me how much he has cut. We are in the | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
worst of all worlds where we do not have the growth in the economy or | :11:19. | :11:25. | |
the borrowing figures being delivered. You said the Chancellor | :11:25. | :11:29. | |
has cut too much and that is why we are in a double-dip recession. If | :11:29. | :11:38. | |
he has cut too much, you must know cutting �20 billion out of the | :11:38. | :11:40. | |
welfare budget. Overall. In terms of what their policy is at the | :11:40. | :11:45. | |
moment? How much is it down compared to 2010? Shall I tell you? | :11:45. | :11:50. | |
The economy is stagnating. It is 0.8%. That cannot explain a double- | :11:50. | :11:54. | |
dip recession. How would you explain a double-dip recession? | :11:54. | :11:59. | |
whole host of other reasons that is only part of that. That is for you | :11:59. | :12:02. | |
to decide. While we have been arguing, historic pictures have | :12:02. | :12:06. | |
come into the BBC. Let's go to Belfast, to Northern Ireland, where | :12:06. | :12:11. | |
we can see the Queen with the Duke of Edinburgh behind, shaking hands. | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
First of all were the first minister, and then a handshake that | :12:14. | :12:19. | |
the world will be watching. Martin McGuinness shaking hands with the | :12:19. | :12:26. | |
head of state of the United Kingdom. And just as significant, as you saw, | :12:26. | :12:31. | |
the Duke of Edinburgh shaking hands with Martin McGuinness. Of course | :12:31. | :12:38. | |
it was Helmand batten, his cousin, who was killed by an IRA bomb. -- | :12:38. | :12:43. | |
Lord Mount Batten. Reaction? I was thinking how can I explain that to | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
my children? You hear on the television that Martin McGuinness | :12:47. | :12:53. | |
was associated with the IRA, terrorist group, but not often. I | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
bumped into John Reid here. He told me that the way he does it is this. | :12:57. | :13:03. | |
3500 people died on both sides of the Northern Irish Troubles, what a | :13:03. | :13:11. | |
euphemism one --.. If that was in Britain it would be 20,000 people | :13:11. | :13:15. | |
and in the USA it would be half a million and she has shaken the hand | :13:15. | :13:20. | |
of somebody that justified that violence. I think her conduct is | :13:20. | :13:23. | |
exemplary. The distinction and a class with which she conducts | :13:23. | :13:26. | |
itself, we should be very proud because it cannot have been an easy | :13:26. | :13:34. | |
murmured. I think respect goes out to her as an individual who can put | :13:34. | :13:38. | |
aside their private situation and be able to lead what is an | :13:38. | :13:41. | |
important part of the process to get to a better place in Northern | :13:41. | :13:44. | |
Ireland. Well, there we are. Historic | :13:45. | :13:54. | |
pictures going round the world, and they will be in every news cast for | :13:54. | :13:57. | |
quite some time. It is the fact that those that were | :13:57. | :14:00. | |
privately educated are disproportionately represented in | :14:00. | :14:05. | |
positions of power, just look at politics and the media. That has | :14:05. | :14:09. | |
got one public schoolboy hot under the collar. He says that all | :14:09. | :14:19. | |
:14:19. | :14:29. | ||
private schools should be set down. It gives you a brilliant education. | :14:30. | :14:39. | |
:14:40. | :14:42. | ||
A host of opportunities. And above all, confidence. The kind of | :14:42. | :14:44. | |
confidence that you need to stand in front of a camera and tell | :14:44. | :14:50. | |
everybody else what to think. It seems to me terribly unfair that so | :14:50. | :14:53. | |
many of the places at Oxford go to children that have been to private | :14:53. | :15:03. | |
:15:03. | :15:11. | ||
school. I should know. I was one of I was a bright kid. I got a | :15:12. | :15:16. | |
scholarship. I might have got in, even if I had been to state school, | :15:16. | :15:20. | |
but the chances were lower. It is hardly surprising when you see that | :15:20. | :15:24. | |
the private schools have so much more money to spend, smaller class | :15:24. | :15:32. | |
sizes and a catchment area largely composed of pushy parents. | :15:32. | :15:35. | |
These schools or obstruct social mobility. They segregate society, | :15:35. | :15:39. | |
making it harder for the most powerful class to empathise with | :15:39. | :15:43. | |
the needs of others. And they ensure that those powerful people | :15:44. | :15:47. | |
have no stake in the state system so they have no qualms about seeing | :15:47. | :15:53. | |
it cut. Private schools are a social menace. | :15:53. | :15:57. | |
If you believe in the idea of equality of opportunity, in the | :15:57. | :16:01. | |
notion of a meritocracy, if you do not want to see so many people's | :16:01. | :16:05. | |
talent being wasted, I hope he will agree with me that they should be | :16:05. | :16:12. | |
shut down. -- I hope you will agree. | :16:12. | :16:15. | |
And George Monbiot is off his bike and in the studio. Before we come | :16:15. | :16:19. | |
to you, both of you were educated at state school. Is it much more | :16:19. | :16:24. | |
difficult to make it? You have not done badly. I also did not go to | :16:24. | :16:29. | |
Oxford or Cambridge. But you have succeeded. I absolutely. I think | :16:29. | :16:34. | |
the challenge that the Government and Michael Gove are grappling with | :16:34. | :16:37. | |
is how do we make sure that the state system does what it should | :16:37. | :16:41. | |
have done. How do we make sure that children are taking the sorts of | :16:41. | :16:44. | |
subjects that would give them the opportunities to go to the best | :16:44. | :16:49. | |
universities? The problem we have is that half of children have not | :16:49. | :16:52. | |
been taking core academic subject and have not had the opportunity to | :16:52. | :16:57. | |
go to the best universities. We should be tackling those problems. | :16:57. | :17:00. | |
I know that George feels so strongly about those issues of | :17:00. | :17:04. | |
social mobility. I went to a comprehensive in Renfrewshire and | :17:04. | :17:08. | |
frankly there are too few kids from that kind of background getting in, | :17:08. | :17:12. | |
not just to Oxford and Cambridge but to other institutions. There | :17:12. | :17:16. | |
can be no grounds for complacency. I am not convinced that what | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
Michael Gove leaked, the idea of a two-tier system of exams, is a | :17:20. | :17:25. | |
necessary sign of progress. I am worried about it. George Monbiot is | :17:25. | :17:29. | |
suggesting getting rid of private schools. Would that help state | :17:29. | :17:35. | |
school pupils get to top universities? My motivation is | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
dealing with the 93% that go to state schools as a priority, rather | :17:39. | :17:43. | |
than the 7% that go to private schools. Get rid of them to? They | :17:43. | :17:49. | |
have an obligation to fulfil the charitable status. Some of them do | :17:49. | :17:53. | |
that. I am not convinced that they all do but the priority has to be | :17:53. | :17:57. | |
the 93% who want to see better opportunities for state-educated | :17:57. | :18:01. | |
kits. They do not need to get rid of private schools to do it. I do | :18:01. | :18:05. | |
not expect progress of policies from the Labour Party any more. One | :18:05. | :18:09. | |
of the reasons why opportunities a truncated for state school kids is | :18:09. | :18:12. | |
that state schools are not given the resources and political cloud | :18:12. | :18:16. | |
behind them that they need and that is partly because the richest and | :18:16. | :18:21. | |
most powerful people in society can opt out. They do not care what | :18:21. | :18:25. | |
happens to state schools. It is in their interests that the state | :18:25. | :18:28. | |
schools get worse so that their children do better by comparison. | :18:28. | :18:33. | |
You have a segregated society which keeps state -- keeps say -- keeps | :18:33. | :18:37. | |
state schools down. What do you think? Look at the facts. In the | :18:37. | :18:40. | |
last decade, Britain has fallen in terms of its delivery of good | :18:40. | :18:49. | |
quality students. In maths, we have slipped from eight for two 28th. | :18:49. | :18:57. | |
Let's focus on what's important. Does it not reinforce the need to | :18:57. | :19:01. | |
improve the quality of our schools? That is what I'm arguing. One of | :19:01. | :19:05. | |
the factors that makes sure that we are not putting the effort and | :19:05. | :19:08. | |
resources into improving quality is that people, particularly those who | :19:08. | :19:11. | |
populate the Conservative Party but also quite a few in the Labour | :19:11. | :19:18. | |
Party, Bushey, powerful rich parents in general, have absolutely | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
no interest in seeing state schools improved and seeing the quality | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
rising. Because they have opted out of that system. You do not have to | :19:25. | :19:28. | |
say that it is something you would like to see but is very | :19:28. | :19:32. | |
correlation? If you got rid of private schools, would the | :19:32. | :19:34. | |
standards automatically improve in state schools could that of course | :19:34. | :19:39. | |
not. There is no way that could happen. It would not be automatic. | :19:39. | :19:42. | |
The parents would make sure that they improve because they would go | :19:42. | :19:47. | |
berserk if the quality was too low. You have benefited from a fantastic | :19:47. | :19:51. | |
education. He went to a marvellous goal but you want to deprive others. | :19:51. | :19:55. | |
You cannot win in this one because if he did not know -- if you did | :19:55. | :20:02. | |
not go, it is the politics of envy and if you'd did go, it is the | :20:02. | :20:05. | |
politics of the drawbridge. Everyone is disqualified! You have | :20:05. | :20:09. | |
compared the number of people that go to state schools and end up to - | :20:09. | :20:17. | |
- end up at Oxford and Cambridge, but 59% of students at Oxford and | :20:17. | :20:19. | |
Cambridge were from state schools, better than in my day. It is better | :20:19. | :20:23. | |
but it means that 42% are going to private school pupils to make up | :20:23. | :20:27. | |
only 7% of the population which is grossly disproportionate. Surely we | :20:27. | :20:31. | |
should try to make sure that those children get that opportunity by | :20:31. | :20:36. | |
making sure they have the right opportunities. I went to Edinburgh | :20:36. | :20:45. | |
University. I think Scotland had four of the ancient universities in | :20:45. | :20:55. | |
:20:55. | :20:55. | ||
400 years. Before you get too pious... Here we go! Before we had | :20:55. | :20:59. | |
the Act of Union cast asunder! would you do it? Let's say the | :20:59. | :21:02. | |
politicians said it's a wonderful idea, how do you dismantle the | :21:02. | :21:07. | |
system? Takeaway charitable status. Basically the rest of us are | :21:07. | :21:12. | |
effectively subsidising a system that helps almost entirely the | :21:12. | :21:15. | |
children of the very rich. And to have charitable status for that is, | :21:15. | :21:20. | |
I think, completely wrong. The second thing, do what governments | :21:20. | :21:25. | |
do and legislate. Governments have given up legislating, but in | :21:25. | :21:29. | |
principle, that is what they used to do. The European Convention on | :21:29. | :21:35. | |
Human Rights say that parents have the right to choose their | :21:35. | :21:39. | |
children's' -- children's education base of philosophical beliefs. | :21:39. | :21:43. | |
the size of the wallet. I can see it being a possibility within that | :21:43. | :21:48. | |
range. There is another way of approaching it which is Peter | :21:48. | :21:51. | |
Wilby's solution, which is that instead of the current selection | :21:51. | :21:54. | |
process, you say that the top universities will take the top | :21:54. | :21:58. | |
pupils from every school, regardless of their absolute greats. | :21:58. | :22:04. | |
At a stroke, that gets away from the motivation for private schools, | :22:05. | :22:07. | |
because pushy parents are going to want to have their children | :22:07. | :22:12. | |
distributed as widely as possible. Interesting idea? I think we need | :22:12. | :22:16. | |
to open the closed circle of privilege at the top of British | :22:16. | :22:19. | |
society. Joking aside, Andrew made a powerful television programme | :22:19. | :22:23. | |
about this which revealed the fact that some of the points that George | :22:23. | :22:27. | |
has been making, that it is to close at the moment. I remain of | :22:27. | :22:29. | |
the view philosophically and practically that the priority has | :22:29. | :22:33. | |
to be to give the best opportunities to kids from ordinary | :22:33. | :22:36. | |
backgrounds but that does not preclude the responsibility of | :22:36. | :22:40. | |
universities and companies in leading institutions, to cast their | :22:40. | :22:46. | |
door wider than they have been. George Monbiot, thank you very much. | :22:46. | :22:51. | |
He has a clip of our favourite TV programme. | :22:51. | :22:56. | |
This moves around us in a regular orbit. In one month, why is it not | :22:56. | :23:01. | |
back here. The next is one -- the next one is not for four years. | :23:01. | :23:04. | |
is a simplistic model. You think it would pass the same place every | :23:05. | :23:08. | |
month but it does not. The reason is because the moon's orbit is | :23:08. | :23:13. | |
inclined. We're more used to seeing particle physicist Professor Brian | :23:13. | :23:16. | |
Cox and comedian Dara O'Briain telling us about the night sky. But | :23:16. | :23:19. | |
earlier today they left their telescopes at home to deliver a | :23:19. | :23:23. | |
petition to Downing Street. The subject, the defamation Bill | :23:23. | :23:26. | |
currently going through Parliament. They believe the Bill does not go | :23:27. | :23:30. | |
far enough in protecting our freedom to have opened, scientific | :23:30. | :23:35. | |
and political debate. They argue that the Defamation Bill needs a | :23:35. | :23:41. | |
proper public interest defence and a bar or on corporations suing | :23:41. | :23:44. | |
individuals for libel. Recent high- profile cases have included the | :23:44. | :23:49. | |
author Simon Singh, sued by the British chiropractic Association | :23:49. | :23:53. | |
for questioning the evidence that their methods can help treat child | :23:53. | :24:00. | |
disorders. And then go Oldaker, the "Bad science" Guardian journalist | :24:00. | :24:03. | |
was sued by a vitamin salesman for criticising his promotion of | :24:03. | :24:10. | |
vitamins to treat HIV and Aids. -- Ben Paul Dacre. Brian Cox has hot- | :24:11. | :24:15. | |
footed it from Downing Street. He joins us. What is wrong with the | :24:15. | :24:20. | |
bill as currently constituted? you say, it is important that this | :24:20. | :24:25. | |
bill is there and it has a cross- party support. It is recognised | :24:25. | :24:28. | |
that there is a problem. This Bill goes part of the way to addressing | :24:28. | :24:35. | |
the problem but our test, these high profile cases, our test was | :24:35. | :24:40. | |
would these bill -- would they still have prevented those cases | :24:40. | :24:43. | |
going to court? And our legal device -- hour legal advice says | :24:43. | :24:49. | |
know it would not have. One reason, you mentioned Ben Paul Dacre's case, | :24:49. | :24:52. | |
he spoke to Parliament earlier and pointed out that although he won, | :24:52. | :24:57. | |
the Guardian was left with a bill of over �100,000. Even to fight | :24:57. | :25:02. | |
that case, you need a lot of money. Your argument is that the | :25:02. | :25:04. | |
corporations have been using these laws and could still under the | :25:04. | :25:10. | |
changes, to essentially closed down criticism. There is a good example | :25:10. | :25:15. | |
of how this should work in the bill. There is protection, and a ring | :25:15. | :25:19. | |
fencing around peer review debate in scientific journals. There is a | :25:19. | :25:23. | |
recognition of the fact that the robust presentation of evidence | :25:23. | :25:28. | |
around ideas, that that is absolutely the core of decision- | :25:28. | :25:31. | |
making in our society orach should be. There is a recognition that | :25:31. | :25:34. | |
that should be protected. It is protected in Parliament by | :25:34. | :25:38. | |
privilege and there is partial privilege for the scientific | :25:38. | :25:41. | |
publications. We think that should be extended to the public. By | :25:42. | :25:51. | |
:25:52. | :25:53. | ||
example that is used his websites like Mumsnet, where a robust | :25:53. | :25:58. | |
debate... There was an M E website were there was a discussion about a | :25:58. | :26:02. | |
claim that herbal tea could allow weight loss to happen. Eight diet | :26:02. | :26:06. | |
supplement, essentially. There was a libel action threatened in that | :26:06. | :26:09. | |
debate and the attempt was made to shut that down. There was an | :26:09. | :26:15. | |
interesting case with Which? magazine who presented a report on | :26:15. | :26:19. | |
child seats in cars and the company issued a libel threat saying that | :26:19. | :26:23. | |
it could not be discussed, rather than presenting a counter argument | :26:23. | :26:27. | |
it, so the public could make their own decision. Because of the First | :26:27. | :26:30. | |
Amendment in the United States, none of these things could happen | :26:30. | :26:33. | |
there. None of these court cases would see the light of day. If it | :26:33. | :26:37. | |
came to court, the judge would say, sorry, First Amendment, thank you | :26:37. | :26:43. | |
and goodbye. That is another debate, free-speech, it is not part of | :26:43. | :26:47. | |
British law. We're looking for a law Bar. We're saying that the | :26:47. | :26:52. | |
evidence should be presentable, and there should be some protections | :26:52. | :26:56. | |
are round malicious publications, and everyone accepts that. -- | :26:56. | :27:00. | |
protections around. The threat of libel action, the competition, the | :27:00. | :27:05. | |
time, the cost, the public should be prevented from seeing the | :27:05. | :27:10. | |
evidence, that idea seems to be to be unreasonable. This became the | :27:10. | :27:17. | |
libel capital under -- libel capital of the world under Labour. | :27:17. | :27:19. | |
I think the Conservatives and Ken clerk deserve credit for this | :27:19. | :27:22. | |
because too often when a new government comes in, even if there | :27:22. | :27:25. | |
is a good idea, they say they will not take it forward. They have | :27:25. | :27:28. | |
taken a different point of view and we think they are right and will | :27:28. | :27:32. | |
support them. We have concerns reflected in what Brian said that | :27:32. | :27:37. | |
the bill needs to go further but I think this legislation is overdue. | :27:37. | :27:42. | |
Is the judge -- is the Government's open, will they listen to the need | :27:42. | :27:46. | |
to make the Bill tougher so that it does the full job? We will always | :27:46. | :27:49. | |
listen. The important thing is getting the balance right between | :27:49. | :27:54. | |
freedom of speech and the ability to protect your reputation as well. | :27:54. | :27:57. | |
The great strike that has been made in this bill is putting it on a | :27:57. | :28:00. | |
statutory footing, the idea of a responsible publication, and making | :28:00. | :28:06. | |
sure that people have more clarity in this area. Moving away from | :28:06. | :28:10. | |
being the libel capital of the world. One of the changes is that | :28:10. | :28:14. | |
the damage has to be done in this country, you can no longer get a | :28:14. | :28:19. | |
billionaire from Azerbaijan coming year. We have time to give you the | :28:19. | :28:24. | |
answer to our Guess The Year competition. The answer was 1989. | :28:24. | :28:30. | |
Where is the button? I have not got a button! It is under the chair. It | :28:30. | :28:39. | |
is too far away. I would just do this. There we go. As it come up? | :28:39. | :28:45. | |
Live telly is great! It is up on the screen. The button works, even | :28:45. | :28:48. | |
when it is not there. Brian, thank you for being with us, interesting | :28:48. | :28:54. |