09/07/2012 Daily Politics


09/07/2012

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Good afternoon, welcome to the Daily Politics. Is the coalition

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heading into unchartered territory? The two sides this week prepare to

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go in to battle over the issue of Lords Reform. Can David Cameron

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bring his Conservative rebels into line? Can Nick Clegg get his

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treasured bill through Parliament? And can the two men keep the

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coalition intact? Meanwhile Ed Miliband goes into

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battle with the banks. The Labour leader is demanding a shake-up of

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the industry. This afternoon the deputy governor of the Bank of

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England will give evidence to MPs about his role in the Libor scandal.

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Should the official beer of the Olympics be British? We'll be

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looking at why some foreign lagers are leaving a bitter taste in the

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mouths of some MPs. And we will be hoping that our

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Calm so far! All that in the next hour.

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With us for the first half of the programme today is one man who

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certainly won't behave like that, at least we hope, the government's

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Behaviour Tsar, Charlie Taylor. Just as well Andrew is off today.

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Many bankers have not been behaving as they should. Their behaviour has

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been so bad that this morning, Ed Miliband called up for a shake-up

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of the banking system and a code of conduct for. We need a system where

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bankers are given an incentive not just to focus on the short-term

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return but the long term, a banking system where no one bank is too big

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to fail or too powerful to be challenged. Where all banks face

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real competition and customers have promises to make and maybe this

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sounds like a long way off, but where the term at banker goes back

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to being a compliment and stops being a term of abuse. Above all, a

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system the British people can have confidence in. With us is the

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shadowed Business Secretary Chuka Umunna. The code of conduct. There

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will be legislation going through so what is it you are suggesting

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that is different. There are different FSA regulations applied

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but we want something more broadly applied across the sector. So I

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used to be a solicitor and I am subject to the solicitors' code of

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conduct and if I bridge that, you can be struck off... It is quite

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restricted in the City of London to whom the regulations apply. We want

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something broader. We have a code of conduct for people way if they

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breach the fundamental principles, which has clearly happened, further

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action needs to be taken but that is only part of it. The other thing

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is there is the sense that if somebody in my constituency

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shoplifters, the strong arm of the law is brought down to bear on them.

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But the FSA is investigating and there can be criminal charges.

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and there was a myth around the headlines that seemed to suggest

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there was not legislation in place that enabled action to be taken.

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There was. The issue is that the Serious Fraud Office has not been

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properly resourced to do this work. One of the things that Ed Miliband

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spoke about today, the fine is 10 times more than the budget of the

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FSO so we need to properly resourced that agency so it can do

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the work to bring those to book. Let's look at things that would

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make a difference to the average punter on the streets. Forcing the

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big banks to sell 1,000 branches. How will that help people? Let me

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put that in context. Part of the problem with the banking system is

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that it is seen to serve the banks as opposed to the people. One your

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high-street, you will notice there are just about five big players and

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if you do not have significant competition, you do not end up with

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a good deal for the consumer. 85% of small business lending is

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dominated by four large banks and I think that has something to do with

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the poor service many of them think they are getting. Make a cow on

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switching easier. If people can move their accounts more easy Lee,

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there will be more competition. -- more easily. I have done that

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myself. How long did it take you to move your account from one bank to

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another? Because that is the problem. It needs to be quicker.

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Are these the sort of things you think will appeal? The important

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thing that people worry most about is the idea that we will not have a

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repeat of what happened in 2008, that people will not be queueing up

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in the case of Northern Rock. that was an era over which Labour

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presided. Isn't there a credibility problem for Labour, that at that

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time, your party was in government and despite the accusations about

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whether they were aware of what was going on in terms of rate rigging,

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they were having conversations with all of the banks, including

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Barclays, at a time when... Labour has admitted they did not have

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tight enough regulation? That is right. No doubt about it, we should

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have better regulated the banks but the important thing is that people

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in the future don't and are you going to learn the mistakes of the

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past or compound them? -- and the questionnaires. Vince Cable was

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responsible for setting up the independent commission on banking

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but what a shame it has produced a recommendation that if applied

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strictly does not prevent a repeat of the crisis of 2008... They are

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going to put through that recommendation. But having set up

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the commission, they are watering down the proposals. The capital

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requirements, the vicar's reports said go for a 4% offer, they are

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going for 3%. They said you should have a clear separation between

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investment banking and retail banking, but they are allowing some

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of those things to take place together, for example, the

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derivatives that we saw that were mis-sold to small and medium-size

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enterprises. We need a strict application. We are arguing for

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that because we have learned from our mistakes. I could go into how

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they were saying we were over regulating but the fact is, we need

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to have more regulating and we need to have ring-fencing of retail and

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investment banking and they seem to be walking away from that. What do

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you think Bob Diamond should get? This is an issue for the

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shareholders. What do you think? think the public would find it

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quite outrageous if having presided over failure and having been in the

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driving seat when some of these things were happening in his bank,

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for him to walk away with a pay-off beyond what anybody could think

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about receiving in their lifetime? That is a good point. It is

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important that politicians are not too heavily involved in this

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process. This is a decision for shareholders and politicians can

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set the standards but it is up to shareholders to make the decision.

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But if the public feel that the banks have got away with a lot over

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the last ten years, surely it is up to politicians to take the lead on

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this. We can express an opinion. I think it is fair to say we would

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not have seen the wave of investor revolves had people in Westminster

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of all political persuasions not been arguing -- investor revolts.

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Who should replace him? That is not for me... An insider? We want

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somebody to restore Barclays' in the public eye... Is that for

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somebody currently inside the bank? I don't think that is something

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that as a politician I should be passing comment on. That is an

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issue for the shareholders and the board. Barclays is our third

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largest bank. I want to see its reputation restored, both

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domestically and internationally, because that is in the national

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interest. Some of the arguments that have been put forward, bearing

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in mind Paul Tucker will be interviewed this afternoon, that if

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the rates were being manipulated and he was aware of it at the Bank

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of England, was he doing so for the sake of market confidence, which

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was extremely low? A really important distinction needs to be

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made about what was happening at the time and about what people in

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the Treasury were concerned about. There was concerned about liquidity

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and that if lending to businesses stalled, the economy would stall.

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It is one thing have legitimate concerns about lending and

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liquidity, and supporting the missed reporting that we saw with

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the rate rigging. It is important that in maintaining the integrity

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of the Bank of England that Paul Tucker clears this up this

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afternoon. Do you be agreed that politicians are useless at holding

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bankers to account -- do you agree? Do you agree with that point?

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would not say that every single line of questioning did not work

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but I think perhaps they could have done a better job the other week

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and this is why we have been arguing for a judge LED inquiry

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with a council... You have got you point him. Thank you, Jo.

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Now it's time for our daily quiz. The question for today is: What is

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the official beer of the 2012 London Olympics? Is it: Slater's

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Top Totty? Heineken? Bull Box's Taxi for Dave? Skol? At the end of

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the show, someone will give us the correct answer.

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The Government published its House of Lords Reform Bill last month. It

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calls for the existing Lords to be replaced with a smaller, largely

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elected, upper house. MPs will debate the plans in the Commons for

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the first time today and tomorrow. But it is already causing an

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almighty row, with the Government potentially facing its first

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Commons defeat. The Government's plans for Lords reform have

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certainly got some of the Lords a leaping. But it has also got

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members of the House of Commons hopping mad. Nick Clegg insists

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that Lords reform is a central part of the Coalition's programme for

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government. But 70 Conservative backbenchers look set to rebel.

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Tomorrow evening there will be a crucial vote on what is known as

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the programme motion, which would allow the Government to guillotine,

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or cut short, future debates. Without it, the bill may never get

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passed. That would delight the rebels. The veteran Conservative MP

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Sir Nicholas Soames says the Bill must be defeated at all cost.

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Labour are in favour of reform but argue that the Government's

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proposals are seriously flawed, so they will line up with the rebels

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to block the programme motion. Lib Dems say that the Tory rebels are

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going back on a clear commitment. And they accuse Labour of

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undermining their claim to be a progressive party. James, what

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exactly is given to happen? We had 70 Tory rebels, what does it mean

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if they all vote against the motion with Labour? Does that mean the

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government will lose? Yes, but proviso is that all Labour MPs vote

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against the government and all independent and minorities party's

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vote against the government. We know what the government majority

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years, it is about 80. In technical terms you need the rebellion of

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over 42 even have a chance. You have 70 Conservative MPs who put

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their name to this letter today saying they think this is a bad

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bill and they also think the Bill But they do not definitively say

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they will vote against the government tomorrow night, and

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there is clearly a difference between writing a letter and

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walking through the division lobby in your government. But it shows

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how difficult it will be for the government to win their vote. A lot

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of time for on twisting and for the Prime Minister to make personal

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calls but it is still a very big ask for the government to win.

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tense is it at Westminster between all these various divisions?

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depends who you talk to. Some Conservative MPs say, yes their

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whips have been in touch but they have not had before heavy-handed

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pressure, simply because a lot of these people have been public in

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their opposition to Lords reform for some time. The mixture of the

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carrot and stick is being deployed. I think both sides of the coalition

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realise it is one of those issues that could drive a wedge between

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them, the Conservatives say this is a Lib Dem priority and we should

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not be doing this and the Lib Dems saying, this is something you

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signed up to in the coalition agreement. That is where the

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tension is, rather than between angry whips trying to persuade big

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guys to go with them. Thank you, James Landale.

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With us now is the Conservative MP, Conor Burns, Liberal Democrat peer,

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:15:10.:15:12.

Lord Oakeshott, and the Labour MP, So you will resign as a ministerial

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aide? It probably means that I will be sacked. What does your boss

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think? My boss is passionately in favour of House of Lords reform.

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What does he think about you voting against the Government? I think his

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view that it is refreshing that somebody is prepared to lay down

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their job in support of a long-held, passionate belief. How many other

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people do you think will be in the same city I do not know. I know

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there is at least one other, and I know of six further who

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passionately agree with me, but will choose to stay in the

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government. This letter, you have not signed up to it, presumably

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because... I believe my name actually is on that list. Do you

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understand that there is a fear amongst your Tory colleagues, and

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amongst the Liberal Democrats, that you just cannot pick and choose

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within this coalition, and you are in breach of that. We were very

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clear in our manifesto that we would try to establish a consensus.

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The joint committee failed to establish that consensus. The

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coalition is incredibly important. For example, Lord Oakeshott left

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the government over the economy. The central wasn't -- reason that

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the coalition was reformed was to have economic stability. This is a

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matter of principle, and what is it that the Liberal Democrats are so

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upset about? The Tory MPs have set out their case, and they are

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sticking to it, there was not a coalition government which said

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that they would go forward and agree on proposals, just that you

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would set them out. Just a minute, it was in the manifesto of each of

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the three main parties, that we would reflect on the House of Lords.

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The impression I get is that it is reasonably Amicus between the MPs,

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but there is more tension in the House of Lords. -- reasonably

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amicable. I think there is the feeling that somebody is trying to

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throw them out of a rather agreeable old people's home. But in

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general, within the coalition, we are united, it is the policy of all

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three parties. Let's get a bit of perspective - it is completely

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wrong that the laws of this country are voted on by people who have

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been him pointed either by prime ministerial patronage or by kings

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from years ago. This is a basic democratic principle, and certainly,

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Chris Bryant and myself, we have had commission after commission,

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and both of us were on the joint committee of 10 years ago, so we

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have had plenty of time to discuss it, and now it is time to get on

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with it. Do you agree that it is time we had a second chamber which

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is elected, not appointed? I feel uneasy about any constitutional

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reform, because we have had a functioning democracy for a very

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long time. I am worried about people's priorities. We have just

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had a debate about banking reform. I just wonder about the Taxi For

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Dave -- the relevance of this at the moment. The people who make the

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laws on this are elected in the House of Commons. The danger is

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that you will be creating a rival chamber. And we have to vote on

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this in the same way. We accept 80% of all amendments made by the House

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of Lords to our legislation. It is a great way of revising and

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improving legislation. We make the laws, like the Commons. He is

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factually wrong. It is worrying when Conservatives cannot get their

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history right. First of all, often, laws start in the House of Lords

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and we end up revising them in the House of Commons. In that regard,

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the two chambers have absolute parity. They are complementary.

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all right, but they are not always revising. Secondly, the vast

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majority of changes done in the House of Lords are done by the

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government. There are things which should have been done in the

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Commons, but they end up getting done in the House of Lords. In the

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last two years, there have only been 241 votes in the House of

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Lords. If you had an elected second chamber, I believe you would make

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the House of Commons to which job better. I do not think we have a

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perfectly -- perfectly functioning democracy in this country, I

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disagree on that point. They have scrutinised very successfully in

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the House of Lords health legislation, for example...

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they do it better in the House of Lords than in the House of Commons?

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One at a time, please. There is an awful lot of nonsense talk about

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what a wonderful revising chamber and everything the House of Lords

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is. There are some people with expertise, but there are also an

:20:23.:20:27.

awful lot of has-beens, frankly, an awful lot of people who are only

:20:27.:20:31.

there because they have given a million pounds to Tony Blair or to

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Margaret Thatcher. It is deeply corrupt. There is no way of

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appointing peers to the House of Lords without corruption, it is a

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basic principle. So, why isn't Labour-voting for this? I support

:20:45.:20:52.

the bill. Because it is opportunistic? You asked me a

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question, grumpy! Adam Mynott allowed to be grumpy? No, you are

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not! There are problems with this bill, and I want to improve it. It

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is important, because you need time to do it properly. Let me give you

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one example. The whole page of the programme motion specify is that we

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will only be allowed two days, about 11 hours of debate, to do the

:21:20.:21:24.

first laws, the most important one, which deals with every single

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element of the composition of the House of Lords. That's roughly six

:21:28.:21:32.

hours of voting, let alone any time to debate things like, whether

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there should be bishops in the House of Lords, whether it should

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be 100% elected, they are not allowing enough time. This is why I

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think it is important that we vote against. Do you buy the argument

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that Labour are not going to vote for the programme motion, which

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could mean that in the end, the reform fails? Labour, and I have

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paid tribute to those who were in favour of genuine reform. But they

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have to compromise, because in the House of Lords, you get a different

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picture. I genuinely hope that some of the reformers on the Labour

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benches might not vote for the programme motion tomorrow. The

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danger is that if that programme loses, this is the one opportunity

:22:17.:22:23.

in my lifetime, certainly, to get it through, but if it loses, Ed

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Miliband has said that they will still vote for the closure on

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individual filibusters, so it would not be the end of the world. What

:22:32.:22:36.

happens to the coalition if that programme motion is voted down?

:22:36.:22:41.

gets much more difficult. But no- one is making threats, we are just

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saying... We say to everybody, including Conor Burns, it is very

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difficult for us, some of the things we have had to vote for,

:22:51.:22:56.

things like tuition fees, and if they do not co-operate with us, it

:22:56.:22:59.

will be harder to get Liberal Democrat MPs to vote for certain

:22:59.:23:05.

things. Conor Burns, what do you say to that, that is a threat, a

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warning, let's put it that way, if you do not vote with the government.

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Matthew is being buried temper it today, which is unusual. The deal

:23:17.:23:23.

that was done was honoured. This is very important - some of us are in

:23:23.:23:26.

favour of reform of the House of Lords, we would like to limit the

:23:26.:23:29.

numbers, we would like to strengthen the Independent

:23:29.:23:32.

commission, but what this bill proposes is the abolition of the

:23:32.:23:35.

House of Lords, which is a very different thing altogether. And

:23:35.:23:39.

actually, there is the case for reform of the House of Commons, a

:23:39.:23:44.

point which was made by Chris Bryant. I would just say to the BBC,

:23:44.:23:47.

please, in the next few months, do not get obsessed about the process

:23:47.:23:53.

of this, it is about the substance. In the end, how we distribute power

:23:53.:23:56.

within the British political system, which is what the House of Lords

:23:56.:24:01.

does, is essential to our politics. At the moment, it is unsustainable,

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it has got more than 800 members. At this rate, every single member

:24:06.:24:10.

of the Liberal Democrat party will be a member of the House of Lords.

:24:10.:24:16.

That is true. It is too big, that is absolutely true. But it is they,

:24:16.:24:23.

Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, who did that. I am totally in favour of

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removing hereditaries. What about the coalition? The coalition came

:24:29.:24:36.

together because of the economy, and that remains the central focus.

:24:36.:24:42.

I should not be in that place, none of us should be in that place.

:24:42.:24:48.

Where you Can Leave, taken leave of absence! If you are the last

:24:48.:24:52.

hereditary peer to be elected, elected hereditary, I know it is

:24:52.:24:57.

weird, but he only has his seat because the first person who had

:24:57.:25:01.

his barony was put into the House of Lords in 1911 by the Liberals,

:25:01.:25:05.

to make sure the bill got through. So, it is about time we had some

:25:05.:25:13.

change. What do you think, looking at it from the coalition, do you

:25:13.:25:18.

think it will survive? I think it is very important that the exciting

:25:18.:25:21.

education reforms which the coalition are working through at

:25:22.:25:28.

the moment should be protected by them continuing to work together.

:25:29.:25:33.

am going to have to let you all go. I will try not to be as grumpy in

:25:33.:25:36.

the future, Chris Bryant. If I told you teachers in England were being

:25:36.:25:40.

urged to pin up notices on their walls reminding them to stay calm

:25:40.:25:43.

and to remember the names of the children, you might think I was

:25:43.:25:48.

making it up, but I am not. It is the latest attempt to get pupils to

:25:48.:25:53.

behave themselves in their schools. The checklist is the brainchild of

:25:53.:25:57.

our guest today, Charlie Taylor. We sent our correspondent back to

:25:57.:26:03.

school to find out if it might work. A few years ago, this primary

:26:04.:26:13.

school was in trouble. Wistaston Green Primary School was in trouble

:26:14.:26:17.

with bad behaviour. But thanks to the efforts of Linda Davis and her

:26:17.:26:22.

team, it came off the sick list in less than a year. It is now

:26:22.:26:25.

clocking up above average ratings in English and maths. It took a lot

:26:25.:26:30.

of hard work, and a version of this, Charlie's checklist. It is the

:26:30.:26:33.

brainchild of the Government's adviser on classroom behaviour,

:26:33.:26:37.

Charlie Taylor. It is simple, a list of ideas and instructions,

:26:37.:26:43.

stuck up on the wall, so that head teachers, teachers and pupils, have

:26:43.:26:48.

a daily reminder of behaviour. It includes advice like, keep the

:26:48.:26:54.

buildings clean, stay calm, and, remember the names of the children.

:26:54.:26:57.

If the words bloomin' obvious are coming into your mind, you might

:26:57.:27:02.

not be alone. I am all in favour of the Government emphasising

:27:02.:27:07.

discipline. It was one of the things that I was keen on. A child

:27:07.:27:12.

who is out of control is learning nothing. But do you not -- but you

:27:12.:27:15.

do not manage to do that by little gimmicks, and a checklist which

:27:15.:27:20.

pupils can see is a bit of a gimmick. But here is the thing. It

:27:20.:27:24.

may be obvious, but around here, they reckon it works. We all need

:27:24.:27:31.

checklists. We use checklists for new staff, for induction, we know

:27:32.:27:36.

that surgeons use checklists, airline pilots. We are only human,

:27:36.:27:40.

and we can forget. If we are under stress, that is the very time when

:27:40.:27:45.

we are likely to forget the basic, essential things. To my mind, a

:27:45.:27:51.

checklist is a very useful document. Maybe, that teachers cannot live by

:27:51.:27:55.

a list alone. Perhaps a more fundamental, time-consuming and

:27:55.:27:59.

expensive issue needs to be addressed. I think traditionally we

:27:59.:28:03.

have not spent enough time making sure that teachers can take control

:28:03.:28:08.

of the class, earn respect and make sure that it is carried through out

:28:08.:28:12.

into the playground and into the community. Even checklist

:28:12.:28:17.

cheerleaders think that Blunkett might be onto something. I believe

:28:17.:28:20.

young teachers on training courses need more training in managing

:28:20.:28:24.

behaviour. That is for the simple reason that we can have the best

:28:24.:28:28.

lesson in the world, differentiation, all sorts going on,

:28:28.:28:33.

but if you can not -- cannot deliver it, and manage behaviour,

:28:33.:28:39.

following the key points on the checklist, it can all fall apart.

:28:39.:28:42.

Checklists may sound like the bloomin' obvious, but sometimes,

:28:42.:28:47.

the bloomin' obvious works. Perhaps the bigger question is, what else

:28:47.:28:50.

does the Government have up its sleeve to make sure that no child

:28:50.:28:58.

is left behind? Reception, are we ready? What a well-behaved class.

:28:58.:29:02.

With us now, the general secretary of the National Union of Teachers,

:29:02.:29:10.

Christine Blower. Cannes come to you first of all, Charlie Taylor,

:29:10.:29:15.

what do you think of the accusation that it is all a gimmick? That was

:29:15.:29:22.

a good example, that school in Crewe, Linda Davis took over at

:29:22.:29:26.

school when it was in a real state, and look at it now. She made a good

:29:26.:29:31.

point, and lines and surgeons all use checklists for things like

:29:31.:29:36.

washing your hands before doing an operation, or things like that.

:29:36.:29:40.

Teaching is an incredibly complicated job at times. But just

:29:40.:29:43.

like Linda Davis was saying, it is about getting the simple things

:29:43.:29:47.

right. Surely it is a given that they will remember the names of the

:29:47.:29:50.

children, that they will stay calm, that they will know what lesson

:29:51.:29:56.

comes next. One would assume that planes would not take off without

:29:56.:30:00.

enough fuel in the tank, and yet they have it on their checklist. It

:30:00.:30:04.

is the same with surgeons, one would assume that they would wash

:30:04.:30:08.

their hands. When we are excited about the brilliant lesson we are

:30:08.:30:13.

going to deliver, actually, we can forget to do those basic things.

:30:13.:30:17.

you think that is right, is it just as simple as having a checklist

:30:17.:30:27.
:30:27.:30:32.

This is called Charlie's checklist. There are lots of different types

:30:32.:30:36.

of checklists which have been operation before Charlie came up

:30:36.:30:42.

with this idea. The fact is, the vast majority of primary kids have

:30:42.:30:45.

a really good experience because teachers are making sure that

:30:45.:30:49.

everything is in place, and I slightly disagree with David

:30:49.:30:56.

Blunkett. The idea that saying what is accepted in the classroom is not

:30:56.:31:02.

a gimmick, it is a good idea. It is the adults and children having a

:31:02.:31:06.

shared understanding of what is happening so they can be ready to

:31:06.:31:12.

do their learning. Does any of that work if you have very disruptive

:31:12.:31:20.

pupils in that class? Relying on a ladder of success, is that going to

:31:20.:31:27.

keep the class engaged and keep the disruptive pupils under control?

:31:27.:31:29.

need absolute consistency so that children know what they are going

:31:29.:31:39.
:31:39.:31:40.

into. There are children who need the additional support and

:31:41.:31:46.

attention, but making sure that the classroom is well rewarded and

:31:46.:31:50.

consistent helps for the vast majority of children. His behaviour

:31:50.:31:55.

getting worse in the classroom? think teachers would say there are

:31:55.:32:00.

a group of anxious, often young children coming into schools who

:32:00.:32:05.

are more aggressive, but the general standards of behaviour are

:32:05.:32:09.

continuing to improve and when I started teaching in the late 80s,

:32:10.:32:16.

there was much worse behaviour. There were no-go areas in schools

:32:16.:32:21.

with you did not fancy walking in break times. I think teachers have

:32:21.:32:25.

done a fantastic job of improving behaviour. But if it is getting

:32:26.:32:32.

worse and certain groups, is that exposing ineffective teaching?

:32:32.:32:39.

Teaches that survive, they survived 20 years ago, are struggling now

:32:39.:32:44.

because they are not good enough? People need to have more expertise

:32:44.:32:52.

when we are dealing with the relief -- really troubled children. The

:32:52.:32:56.

checklist is about keeping things simple and well organised but there

:32:56.:33:01.

is a group of children who require little bit extra and that is where

:33:01.:33:06.

we need training, expertise and support. And that costs money.

:33:06.:33:10.

There is a huge amount of money being spent already on these

:33:10.:33:15.

children. Schools are spending a fortune on things like teaching

:33:15.:33:20.

assistants who support children who have not had the expertise they

:33:20.:33:28.

need to deliver. Is the problem that what teachers need sometimes

:33:28.:33:33.

is a bit of personality? No-win your subject is marvellous but

:33:33.:33:37.

sometimes you need a bit of... you look at the teacher or mad

:33:38.:33:46.

video? The vast majority of teachers have to be like that. What

:33:46.:33:49.

Charlie his singing is that in general, behaviour is better than

:33:49.:33:55.

it ever was. -- What Charlie is saying. There is a small group of

:33:55.:34:00.

difficult young people and we need something additional for them, but

:34:00.:34:05.

all teachers need to look at the way that he managed behaviour

:34:05.:34:09.

because if you can't manage the behaviour in the classroom, you

:34:09.:34:13.

can't do the teaching in the first place. Michael Gove mentioned

:34:13.:34:19.

returning to O-levels? It is a good and time the argument to be having.

:34:19.:34:25.

A lot of people feel there has been graves inflation, that GCSEs are

:34:25.:34:31.

not worth the O-levels that I did many years ago. Therefore it is

:34:31.:34:35.

important there is a debate about that and we cannot have people

:34:35.:34:40.

feeling that what we are doing now is not good enough. Thank you.

:34:40.:34:44.

So any sign that things are calming down for the summer? Doesn't look

:34:44.:34:48.

like it! In a moment, we will talk to a couple of political hacks who

:34:48.:34:51.

we have flushed out from the dark corridors of Westminster. But first,

:34:51.:34:56.

As we have heard, the week starts with the coalition's sternest test

:34:57.:34:59.

yet. MPs are discussing Lords reform today and tomorrow. The

:34:59.:35:02.

Treasury Select Committee is due to ask questions about the Barclays

:35:02.:35:05.

Libor banking debacle. Paul Tucker, the Bank of England's Deputy

:35:05.:35:08.

Governor, is up today. Barclays chairman, Marcus Agius, will be

:35:08.:35:10.

quizzed tomorrow. And, also tomorrow, French President Francois

:35:10.:35:13.

Hollande arrives in London for talks with David Cameron. By

:35:13.:35:16.

Wednesday, social care comes to the fore when the government's care and

:35:16.:35:20.

support white paper is debated. And believe it or not, Wednesday will

:35:21.:35:27.

be the last PMQs before the summer Let's talk now to our political

:35:27.:35:30.

hacks, Torcuil Crichton, of the Scottish Daily Record, and Craig

:35:30.:35:35.

Woodhouse, the Sun's new political correspondent. Can the Coalition

:35:35.:35:40.

survive the week? It will certainly be the biggest test for the

:35:40.:35:45.

coalition. Rebels are thinking, Tory rebels, that they will be able

:35:45.:35:51.

to hit David Cameron with his biggest revolt yet. I think more

:35:51.:35:58.

like 80. The Lib Dems are spitting feathers. They are saying, we have

:35:58.:36:01.

had to march through the lobbies on things we don't like, now you have

:36:01.:36:09.

got to do it on this. It is a huge test. The Lib Dems are saying

:36:09.:36:14.

uncharted territory. Is it a leadership problem for David

:36:14.:36:20.

Cameron if he cannot deliver his MPs through these division lobbies?

:36:20.:36:26.

It is a basic issue of maths. If 100 people are rebelling, you have

:36:26.:36:30.

five or six parliamentary aides, which I think is towards the Top

:36:30.:36:34.

End, if he cannot maintain their discipline then yes, he has a

:36:34.:36:40.

problem. Some Tory MPs saying last week Liam Fox giving a big speech

:36:40.:36:50.
:36:50.:36:51.

on Europe, David Davis batting hard on her Lords reform. One to banking.

:36:51.:36:56.

We have heard Ed Miliband make his speech on proposals to improve the

:36:56.:37:00.

culture within banking but how easy is it for Ed Miliband to take the

:37:00.:37:04.

moral high ground when Labour has to take responsibility for what

:37:04.:37:08.

when it on in the past? He does take responsibility for what

:37:08.:37:15.

happened in the past. The when Ed Miliband gave us his conference

:37:15.:37:19.

speech last autumn about predatory capitalism, none of us had a clue

:37:19.:37:25.

what he was talking about. We certainly have an idea now. It

:37:25.:37:29.

seems that Ed Miliband has once again been ahead of the game. He

:37:29.:37:33.

spoke last year about the squeezed middle. We did not know what he was

:37:34.:37:39.

talking about until we got our winter fuel bills. George Osborne

:37:39.:37:44.

is delighted, this is the second week that we have started a Monday

:37:44.:37:51.

not talking about the Budget, and he is using the Libor rate fixing

:37:51.:37:57.

scandal as the club to beat the Labour Party with. This cuts

:37:57.:38:00.

through to 2015. This is about George Osborne saying, you cannot

:38:00.:38:05.

trust these guys with the banks and the economy, this is what they did

:38:05.:38:10.

the last time. Ed Miliband is hitting back and saying, I am the

:38:10.:38:15.

guy with a vision on how to deliver responsible capitalism and banking.

:38:15.:38:19.

It is fascinating stuff. We will hear from Paul Tucker this

:38:19.:38:28.

afternoon. Would it be revealing? If you listen to what some of the

:38:28.:38:31.

Treasury Select Committee members have been saying, probably not! We

:38:31.:38:36.

are useless at getting to the bottom of these things. The one

:38:36.:38:40.

question people want answered is, who were these Whitehall figures

:38:40.:38:45.

talking to Bob Diamond and the bankers about lowering Libor?

:38:45.:38:51.

know who has denied it. But is it this legitimate, let's try and get

:38:51.:38:56.

Libor down to help British business in the crash? In which case that is

:38:56.:39:01.

probably illegitimate. But these are questions we do not know the

:39:01.:39:05.

answers to and hopefully we will get to the bottom of them. If not,

:39:05.:39:09.

maybe it will be down to the parliamentary inquiry. One of the

:39:09.:39:14.

issues that is deemed huge in terms of the future planning his social

:39:14.:39:18.

care. Labour sources have said there have been no cross-party

:39:18.:39:26.

talks since February, which I've found astounding. How do we pay for

:39:26.:39:32.

care? The issue of our age. There have been reports about this, the

:39:32.:39:38.

idea that social care should be capped at �35,000 over a lifetime.

:39:38.:39:43.

We would all take out insurance against to pay for that. The

:39:43.:39:47.

government agrees in principle with this but it is not putting any cash

:39:47.:39:53.

forward. It would cost 1.7 billion to set this up. There is no money.

:39:53.:39:58.

They say they will look at this again in 2014. Labour are cross

:39:58.:40:03.

because they were not included in talks to come up with this plan. We

:40:03.:40:07.

will have a ding-dong, but nothing is going to happen this side of an

:40:07.:40:14.

election on that. Thank you both. Joining me for the rest of the

:40:14.:40:17.

programme are the Conservative MP, Jessica Lee, Liberal Democrat MP,

:40:17.:40:26.

Martin Horwood, and Jenny Chapman for Labour. Welcome. Jessica, we

:40:26.:40:31.

heard Creek raising the point from your colleagues that their

:40:32.:40:35.

politicians on the Treasury Select Committee are useless at holding

:40:35.:40:41.

bankers to a count. Andrea has done a fantastic job on the Treasury

:40:41.:40:46.

Select Committee. She is in force to be reckoned with. I think we are

:40:46.:40:50.

all waiting to see the evidence of the Select Committee and see how it

:40:50.:40:55.

pans out but I think this whole issue about the bankers, the

:40:55.:41:00.

reality has hit us all and we are now in the starting position. We

:41:01.:41:07.

need to move things forward and bring shame sh. But on the point

:41:07.:41:12.

that perhaps they did not go far enough, why not have a judge

:41:12.:41:17.

inquiry if people feel that politicians are not doing their job

:41:17.:41:24.

probably? We do not need a judicial inquiry. We need to politicians to

:41:24.:41:29.

get to grips. We need a joint inquiry with in parliament. It

:41:29.:41:33.

doesn't stop any investigations being done separately, that can

:41:33.:41:37.

continue in terms of criminal matters. But this is something that

:41:37.:41:42.

should be dealt with within the Houses of Parliament. Paul Tucker,

:41:42.:41:49.

a former deputy of the Bank of England, coming forward. The point

:41:49.:41:54.

that Labour has made is that what we need is not a panel of MPs

:41:54.:41:58.

asking these questions, we need people who are properly trained and

:41:58.:42:05.

qualified. What would you like to hear him say? Labour wants to see a

:42:05.:42:09.

proper inquiry into banking led by a judge and it is not for me to

:42:09.:42:13.

suggest what those questions should be. Ed Miliband has set out today

:42:13.:42:18.

what he would like to see with banking. He wants to see more

:42:18.:42:22.

diversity on the high street. If you look back ten years, there was

:42:22.:42:27.

a multiplicity of banks in the country. There were building

:42:27.:42:31.

societies in every town. We need to give consumers more choice and work

:42:31.:42:37.

out how we get from where we are now two will meet to be. Was it a

:42:37.:42:40.

defining watching George Osborne and Ed Balls going fought each

:42:40.:42:45.

other in parliament? particularly edifying, no, but that

:42:45.:42:50.

is what you get. People are angry about this and that lays out in the

:42:50.:42:55.

Commons chamber and there is nothing wrong with that.

:42:55.:43:00.

questions the Bank of England have to answer. The first, with that

:43:00.:43:05.

they were giving some kind of nod and wink to the Libor process,

:43:05.:43:09.

which is supposed to be a purely mechanical process, or was

:43:09.:43:13.

something fishy going on? If they thought something fishy was going

:43:13.:43:19.

on, why don't they do something about it? It is a test for Ed

:43:19.:43:24.

Balls's light touch regulation regime. This is why we need a

:43:24.:43:27.

Banking Reform Bill and why we need to get much tougher on regulating

:43:27.:43:32.

activities of the banks to make sure this does not happen again.

:43:32.:43:36.

The test last week in that debate was for George Osborne to back up

:43:36.:43:39.

the allegations he was making about Ed Balls and he absolutely failed

:43:39.:43:45.

to do that, and that is why the debate was so bad tempered.

:43:45.:43:50.

Balls was the banking minister at the time. I think part of the

:43:50.:43:56.

lack of acknowledgement, I think, by the Labour Party... Although Ed

:43:56.:44:01.

Miliband has said this morning. am talking about last week. I am

:44:01.:44:07.

talking about today. Part of this frustration is that at times people

:44:07.:44:11.

need to stand up and say, we do get that wrong, we need to take

:44:11.:44:16.

responsibility. That was part of the issue. But do you give credit

:44:16.:44:23.

to Ed Miliband for doing that today? I have no difficulty with Ed

:44:23.:44:28.

Miliband saying that today but it is long overdue. What about Bob

:44:28.:44:33.

Diamond? He should get as little as possible. He has brought the whole

:44:33.:44:38.

industry into disrepute. The eye D he should be rewarded with more

:44:38.:44:42.

than �20 million of shareholders' money is obscene -- the idea.

:44:42.:44:46.

was not in breach of his contract and did build up one of the most

:44:46.:44:52.

successful investment banks. Define success. I am not sure boxes looks

:44:52.:44:58.

like a successful banker right now. -- Barclays looks like. This is

:44:58.:45:03.

something we have to look at. Vince Cable has been very clear. Lib Dems

:45:03.:45:08.

have been talking about this... Working out the mechanics of this

:45:08.:45:12.

are quite complicated. We have been telling banks to become more

:45:12.:45:15.

secured through the mechanics of how you force them to do what they

:45:15.:45:20.

need to do, to lend to small businesses, the engine of recovery,

:45:20.:45:24.

we need to do more on this. fascinating thing is that Vince

:45:24.:45:31.

Cable is outraged by Bob Diamond's bonuses but is unable to do a

:45:31.:45:37.

single thing about it. That is the proper. We have had two years, you

:45:37.:45:41.

had 13 and you didn't manage to do anything. What Ed Miliband is

:45:42.:45:47.

saying today... Vince Cable, I am sure, will come up with stronger

:45:47.:45:57.
:45:57.:45:59.

Why have these cross-party talks failed? That is a question for

:45:59.:46:04.

Andrew Lansley. Labour is very, very happy to engage in these talks,

:46:04.:46:08.

if the door is wide open. What the Labour Party does not want is a

:46:08.:46:17.

political row about this. We cannot afford to mess about, because there

:46:17.:46:20.

has been in action on this issue for many, many years. It is a key

:46:21.:46:26.

issue for all of us. We all have ageing relatives. We are all going

:46:26.:46:34.

to be old ourselves. It concerns everybody in the country. I welcome

:46:34.:46:39.

what comes this week, I think the coalition government have done a

:46:39.:46:49.
:46:49.:46:49.

huge amount to move this issue on. How have they moved it on? If you

:46:49.:46:55.

look at who has led with this issue in House of Commons, it is clearly

:46:55.:46:58.

the Conservative Party, supported by the Liberal Democrats on this

:46:58.:47:04.

point. It is the Conservatives who have been leading the debates in

:47:04.:47:11.

the House of Commons. And we have now got agreement... The main thing

:47:11.:47:15.

in the Dilnot report was the idea of a cap on the amount any

:47:15.:47:20.

individual should pay towards his or her own care, do you agree with

:47:20.:47:26.

that? I want to see how the debate pans out. On a personal level, this

:47:26.:47:29.

is one of the most important issues we're going to have to deal within

:47:29.:47:32.

this entire parliament. I don't know the why those cross-party

:47:33.:47:37.

talks, if that is right, have not been going ahead, but I hope there

:47:37.:47:42.

can be some progress on this. have they not? Everybody comes on

:47:42.:47:45.

to this programme and says it is the biggest problem facing society,

:47:45.:47:54.

and yet we have not managed to get agreement on one single proposal?

:47:54.:47:58.

The most bizarre thing is that of course we have actually got a

:47:58.:48:03.

proposal from Dilnot. It could be the money attached to this. Who

:48:03.:48:08.

knows where the logjam has happened? All I know is that the

:48:08.:48:11.

Lib Dem minister involved in this is deeply committed to finding a

:48:11.:48:15.

way to progress on the reform and the funding of social care. It is

:48:15.:48:18.

something he campaigned passionately about in opposition,

:48:18.:48:24.

so he must be as frustrated as everybody. There is a log jam with

:48:24.:48:28.

money, isn't there? Honestly, do you think the politicians will be

:48:28.:48:32.

able to agree, when they are so concerned with making savings and

:48:32.:48:39.

deficit reduction? I suppose in the end, if there are fundamental

:48:39.:48:42.

disagreement between the political parties, then it may be something

:48:42.:48:46.

which has to wait for the 2015 election. The Liberal Democrats

:48:46.:48:49.

would probably be happy to say that this would be something they would

:48:49.:48:55.

be happy to see funded to taxation. But I think we should just give the

:48:55.:49:00.

cross-party attempt a bit more time, to see if we can get a solution.

:49:00.:49:05.

is not about whether we pay for it or not, it is how it is paid for.

:49:05.:49:10.

This has got to be paid for, it is how we do it. Before the last

:49:10.:49:14.

election, the Labour Party made a proposal on how it might be done,

:49:14.:49:19.

and got its fingers badly burned, the Tories Corder to death tax. We

:49:19.:49:24.

have got to get well away from this territory. -- the Tories called it

:49:25.:49:31.

a death tax. We have taken a few knocks already in the last two

:49:31.:49:35.

years, and Salomon anything in the next week or so will threaten the

:49:35.:49:44.

coalition. -- and I don't think anything in the next week or so.

:49:44.:49:47.

might just have to use up the summer holidays to discuss House of

:49:47.:49:51.

Lords reform, it is a bizarre way to spend your time, though. This is

:49:51.:49:56.

not the most important thing on the Government's agenda. It seems to be

:49:56.:50:01.

quite important. It is important to us, we have gained -- we have been

:50:01.:50:08.

campaigning for it for 100 years. But that is why a programme motion

:50:08.:50:13.

which threatens to blow everything else out of the way, and spend

:50:14.:50:18.

endless amounts of time discussing Lords reform, it seems a bit out of

:50:18.:50:24.

proportion. So, you're saying that they should be worrying about the

:50:24.:50:29.

boundary review? It is dangerous to get into this tit-for-tat politics.

:50:29.:50:33.

The point is, a deal is a deal. It was in the coalition agreement, it

:50:34.:50:38.

was in the Tory manifesto. It is clearly a bit of a test of David

:50:38.:50:41.

Cameron's leadership that he can deliver members of his own party,

:50:41.:50:46.

on this matter. It is a test of David Cameron's leadership? I think

:50:46.:50:52.

it is a test of lots of things over the next few days, including how is,

:50:52.:50:59.

as a country, have our second chamber. I think it is going to be

:50:59.:51:05.

quite a fascinating period. will you vote? I am voting with the

:51:05.:51:09.

Government, I have always been in favour of House of Lords reform,

:51:09.:51:15.

quarter to consistent on that. It has been said a lot, but it is true,

:51:15.:51:19.

this has been lined up for more than 100 years. I think we have a

:51:19.:51:24.

genuine opportunity here to improve our second chamber. Any message for

:51:24.:51:29.

rebels in your party? I would say, there are some people who have had

:51:29.:51:33.

passionate views strongly against reform for many years, and I

:51:33.:51:38.

respect their position. But I think if other people are more concerned

:51:38.:51:41.

about specific details, I'm sure they will take the opportunity to

:51:41.:51:51.
:51:51.:51:54.

discuss that with their whip. was very subtly put! We have heard

:51:54.:51:57.

from some of your colleagues, saying they're going to vote

:51:57.:52:01.

against, in other words, they could talk and talk about Lords reform,

:52:01.:52:05.

but it might block up other legislation. A our position is very

:52:05.:52:10.

simple. We think 10 days is not enough. It is not a complicated

:52:10.:52:20.
:52:20.:52:22.

position. We have had years. That is exactly the point. Suddenly, the

:52:22.:52:28.

Government wants to settle this within 10 days. 10 days! It is not,

:52:28.:52:33.

it has been months, with the review, the commission, people know that.

:52:34.:52:37.

If the Government feels confident about this, which I would question,

:52:37.:52:43.

to win the argument in parliament, it needs more than 10 days. It was

:52:43.:52:49.

-- if it was confident to win this without using the whip in the

:52:49.:52:55.

lobbies, then it would give it more than 10 days. Labour is the party

:52:55.:52:59.

off Kier Hardie, Clement Atlee and John Smith, so the idea that they

:52:59.:53:04.

are going to effectively sabotaged a reform of the House of Lords, and

:53:04.:53:08.

effectively to end hereditary peerage, would be bizarre. I'm sure

:53:08.:53:12.

there will be talent to debate it on this programme anyway. Let's

:53:12.:53:17.

find out the answer to our quiz. The question was, what is the

:53:17.:53:27.
:53:27.:53:28.

official beer of the 2012 London Olympics? What is the correct

:53:28.:53:35.

answer? Heineken. Well done. I have to say, that's very good. Does it

:53:35.:53:43.

matter, what the official beer is of the Olympics? It is not ideal.

:53:43.:53:46.

But I would say, this country, we are having a spectacular year with

:53:46.:53:51.

the Jubilee, the Olympics is another opportunity to showcase our

:53:51.:53:55.

talent to the entire planet, and I think there will be many

:53:55.:53:59.

opportunities for many British companies. In Derbyshire, we have a

:53:59.:54:06.

real growth in micro-breweries at the moment, in my constituency. And

:54:06.:54:09.

I genuinely think this is a fantastic opportunity for the

:54:09.:54:15.

country.. And the brand of the beer does not matter? It is not ideal,

:54:15.:54:20.

but it is not the most important thing in the world. It kind of

:54:20.:54:29.

matters, I would prefer it if it was a beer from Cheltenham. I'm

:54:29.:54:33.

afraid these big sponsorship deals are crucial to the Games. I am

:54:33.:54:41.

pretty cross that the French state is the official electricity

:54:41.:54:45.

supplier, we do not have to be heavy about every single dodge deal

:54:45.:54:48.

to accept that these are important to the Games. We do not have to

:54:48.:54:56.

drink it. I don't think you're allowed to bring your own, actually.

:54:56.:55:02.

What is the official water?! What about you? I think it matters a

:55:02.:55:08.

huge amounts. Beer is part of Britishness. This is not the best

:55:08.:55:14.

product, I would say. And I have found out it is going to be sold at

:55:14.:55:22.

�4.24 a 330 ml bottle.. How much is it normally? A lot less than that.

:55:22.:55:25.

I think it is a shame that families will be getting ripped off when

:55:25.:55:28.

they go to these games. They will not have a choice about what they

:55:28.:55:34.

can buy, and it is being sold at very high prices. There is the

:55:34.:55:38.

point about it having to be a big company to be able to pay that kind

:55:38.:55:42.

of sponsorship deal? That is the sad thing about brewing in this

:55:42.:55:46.

country, then, isn't it? We have got some great businesses here,

:55:46.:55:51.

making fantastic products, great breweries, and it is just a shame,

:55:51.:55:57.

I think. If you had a choice, apart from your Cheltenham one, which one

:55:57.:56:02.

would it be? It would be a mixture from our micro-breweries in

:56:02.:56:08.

Derbyshire. We will come back to you on that one! We all know that

:56:08.:56:14.

political exchanges can get a bit heated, with the occasional raised

:56:14.:56:20.

voices. Even the odd bout of fisticuffs. But have you ever seen

:56:20.:56:30.
:56:30.:57:03.

-- have you ever seen anything like I like the way they have bleeped it,

:57:03.:57:07.

because none of us can understand what the swearwords were. None of

:57:07.:57:14.

you aren't, are you? I left the firearms at home today. Were you

:57:14.:57:18.

shocked by that? A little. Maybe they were discussing the reform of

:57:18.:57:23.

the Jordanian parliament. Nothing like that has ever happened yet on

:57:23.:57:28.

The Daily Politics. Have you ever lost your temper on live TV? No, I

:57:28.:57:35.

have not, no. No cause to, not yet. But what makes you really angry?

:57:35.:57:39.

Has there been a debate or a subject which has really got you

:57:39.:57:46.

going? I did once walkout on Yvette Cooper during a Westminster debate.

:57:46.:57:50.

We were discussing Labour's regional strategies, and she was

:57:50.:57:54.

basically saying that the local consultations did not matter. So I

:57:54.:57:59.

thought, in that case, no point staying. I stomped out, which was

:57:59.:58:04.

silly, really. When I go to primary schools, I do say, I think your

:58:05.:58:08.

behaviour policy is much better than the House of Commons. I think

:58:08.:58:11.

the shouting and jury in the House of Commons does a lot of damage. It

:58:11.:58:21.
:58:21.:58:22.

is much better if people can keep a lid on their tempers. -- shouting

:58:22.:58:30.

and jeering. Everybody sees PMQs at home, but we know that there is a

:58:30.:58:34.

huge amounts to a cross-party work, select committee work. Of course

:58:34.:58:37.

there are disagreements, but actually, the things that get me

:58:37.:58:41.

going in life, it is not disagreements on policy or ideas,

:58:41.:58:46.

it is all to do with people who are bad manners or -- bad-mannered or

:58:46.:58:51.

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