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Conference Special

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Afternoon, folks. Welcome to the second Daily Politics Liberal

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Democrats Conference special. The full police transcript of gategate

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is published in the Telegraph and the pressure on the chief whip

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increases. Are wind farms worth the candle? The Chancellor is sceptical

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as are other Conservative ministers. We'll be asking the Lib Dem Energy

:00:59.:01:05.

Secretary whether his flagship green energy policy is imperilled.

:01:05.:01:08.

Abu Hamza is finally to be extradited to the United States.

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And it emerges this morning that the Queen voiced concern about why

:01:11.:01:16.

the radical cleric couldn't be banged up. We'll be talking to a

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Home Office minister Lib-Con or Lab-Lib, what flavour of coalition

:01:18.:01:28.
:01:28.:01:31.

do activists in Brighton want after the next election? Do you want to

:01:31.:01:41.
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do the balls this year? I will lend some money to your business bank.

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All that in the next hour. And with us for the duration, Tim Razzall, a

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Liberal Democrat peer and the party's former election supremo.

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Welcome to the show. We will be bringing all of the developments

:02:05.:02:08.

from the Conference in Brighton. But first let's return to Andrew

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Mitchell and the ongoing row about whether he did or didn't call the

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policemen in Downing Street plebs. Yes, you will recall that the chief

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whip publicly apologised yesterday for the incident, in which he got

:02:22.:02:27.

into a row with a policeman at the Downing Street gates. Well, the

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Daily Telegraph has got its hands on the police log of the incident

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and printed a full transcript in That was the account of the

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policemen. Well, I'm joined now by our political correspondent. Is it

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a full transcript? We do not have independent corroboration ourselves.

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It looks like a narrative account of what took place. In terms of

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whether it is the Bayton, it seems unlikely. In the original reporting

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of this, Mr Mitchell is supposed to have used the words -- the word,

:03:25.:03:31.

morons. Where does that come from? What is interesting is, how close

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he got to getting it, getting arrested. They were pretty cross.

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They had to warn him he could be arrested. That is when he pulled

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down, went to the side gate and went through. It seems they were

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concerned about what he might do next. He said you have not heard

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the last of this. That is where they wrote an account and scented

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up to their senior officers. -- that is why. Apparently he had had

:04:05.:04:11.

a stressful day. What does it consist of? He describes it as a

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long and frustrating day. Some suggestion that included a lunch at

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a club just around the corner from our studios. It is a swanky Indian

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restaurant. It is not cheap by any means. It is the main watering hole

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and eating establishment for the denizens of Westminster. Apparently,

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Downing Street said it was a lunch and not a long lunch. Read into

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that what you will! Thank you very much for that. The story will not

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die, will it? The British public must be losing the will to live. I

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think Andrew Mitchell has made the classic error. It you make a

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serious mistake, which it clearly was, you want to get a whole story

:05:00.:05:05.

out, exactly what you did on day one. Profusely apologised to the

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people involved, including the Prime Minister, and then the story

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will die. It drags on and on. What did he say? Did he say it? Did he

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lose - has never did he use the word, a moron? -- did he use the

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word, moron? Joining us from Brighton now are two of Fleet

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Street's finest - Alison Little of the Express and Steve Richards of

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the Independent. We have seen this surrounding row. Where does the

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story go from here, if anywhere? do not think Mr Mitchell is going

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anywhere right now. We have a stalemate was up the full account

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of the police blocked in the Daily Telegraph is compelling reading. It

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is written in classic police speak. It confirms what the police were

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saying about it. That is where we are stuck. I think this story will

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run and run. People cannot escape it. There are reports a Labour MP

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has written to the Commons Macro authorities. -- Commons authorities.

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David Cameron is off to the States was that he will not be able to

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escape it. He is on the Late Show in New York tomorrow night. I am

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sure the Americans will be absolutely fascinated to hear his

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definition of what is a pleb. And the Labour conference is coming up.

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They will love it. It will go up on and on. I may be going out on a

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limb but I do not think that David Letterman has heard of and to

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Mitchell. The establishment is meaning to close this down. --

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Andrew Mitchell. We have had the Cabinet Secretary calling the chief

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of police in London saying, let's draw a line under this and move on.

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Will that work? No. David Cameron has a real problem. He cannot sack

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Mitchell on the evidence that is available so far and will be wrong

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to do so. We have not got definitive proof of what was said.

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However, he has now got the Chief Whip in charge of telling MPs not

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to rock the boat in the Parliamentary Party when he himself

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has rocked the boat. It is like a spin doctor when they become the

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story. When the Chief Whip becomes a story, it is very difficult. In a

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way he has the worst of all worlds. He would be wrong to get rid of him

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at the moment but he has a damaged chief whip at a time when his

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Parliamentary Party is restive. It is a story with consequences, as

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well as legs. Let's come on to Vince Cable. He had his big speech

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yesterday. All sort of analysis in the papers. Do we agree if, and I

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emphasise that word, if there was a leadership challenge to Nick Clegg,

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or his leadership was to be in jeopardy, is Vince Cable the clear

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:08:29.:08:30.

favourite to succeed him? I am just trying to think. Vince Cable has

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the advantage of being one of the few politicians that members of the

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public, they know who he is. They would easily identify him. He would

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have to be in the front. They raise another man, about six feet away

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from me, Mister Ed Davey, who is being talked about as another

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possible challenger. When a leadership contest actually happens,

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and a do not think we are near that yet, suddenly all the contenders...

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I think Vince Cable is the clear favourite. What is happening now is

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the opinion polls are always asking the Lib Dem rating if specifically

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Vince Cable where to take over and no one else was up that will carry

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on. Although there are no signs, as you pointed out of a challenge, if

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the polls are as they are after the May elections, it would become a

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very different. The Poles are suggesting that Vince Cable would

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make a positive difference. It could become very potent indeed.

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:09:59.:10:00.

The latest show that voting road race. Another poll put it higher. -

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:10:10.:10:11.

- voting would raise. Thank you for joining us. Now, the Liberal

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Democrats like to talk up their influence on government policy -

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the pupil premium, changes to NHS reforms and helping to make the

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Coalition live up to its claim to be the greenest government ever.

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That is what Mr Cameron once claimed it would be. The chief

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cheerleader for this policy is the Energy and Climate Change Secretary,

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Ed Davey, who I will be speaking to in a moment. When he addressed

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conference at the weekend, he re- affirmed his commitment to the

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green economy but the Lib Dems suspect their Coalition partners

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don't have their hearts in going green any more. Here is Jo. The

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coalition used to be a big fan of windmills, part of its promise to

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be the greenest government ever, and Lib Dem Energy Secretary Ed

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Davey is still firmly behind tough emissions-cutting targets. But

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George Osborne has taken the wind out of his sails by repeatedly

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warning that too much environmental red tape risks putting our country

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out of business, while a leaked letter suggests the Chancellor

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favours generating electricity with gas instead of more expensive

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nuclear or renewable fuels. And power suppliers have said that new

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energy regulations are partly to blame for high average fuel bills,

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which have risen from �522 back in 2004 to �1,252 this year. Ed Davey

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also has a new Energy Minister, the Conservative John Hayes, who is a

:11:32.:11:35.

known critic of wind power. And, at the weekend, Mr Davey suggested he

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was fighting a battle with the TEA Party tendency in the coalition, in

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:11:49.:11:53.

reference to the right-wing As if by magic, Ed Davey joins me

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from Brighton. Thank you for joining us. At the weekend, you

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talked about the Tory TEA Party tendency, which did not want to

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spend money on green power. Who were you thinking of? There are a

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number of people on the Conservative backbenchers, who have

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never believed that climate change is an issue. They have always

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opposed the green agenda. I believe we need to stand up to that. The

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Prime Minister made it very clear by making sure that when he was

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opposition leader that the Conservative Party voted for the

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climate change at an George Osborne campaign when he was running the

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election campaign. We agreed this will be the greenest government

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ever. I want to deliver on the Government's strategy. I do not

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believe the noises off should be listened to. It is not just

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Conservative backbenchers. John Hayes is part of the TEA Party

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tendency when it comes to green issues, isn't it? He told BBC News

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in 2009 that renewable energy needs to pass the Twin Towers of

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environmental and economic sustainability and win power fails

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on both accounts. -- wind power. He is part of your TEA Party, isn't

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he? I worked with him when I was a minister in the Department for

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business. We got on incredibly well. I am delighted he is a minister in

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my department. We are working through a whole range of major

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reform issues. When they study the evidence, I am sure they will see

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that renewables can be very cost effective and critically important

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for the carbonised in our economy and meeting Climate Change targets.

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What you stand for and what you believe cannot be the same as Mr

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Hayes saying, wind power fails on both accounts. You do not agree

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with that. He said it. He said it in 2009. I'm sure that when he is

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in the department he will look at the evidence. You mean he had not

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looked before. I do not know whether he looked before. I have

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noticed. When you are a minister, you look at the huge detail and

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learnt a lot. The evidence is very clear. Onshore wind is the most

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cost-effective but mass renewable technology we have today. Therefore,

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the Treasury believes that. They understand if we are to take care

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of consume energy bills and meet renewable energy targets, onshore

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:14:49.:14:49.

wind is a very said none of -- is sensible technology to invest in

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there. There was a study, comparing it with other countries and their

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renewable energy strategies. The conclusion says, by 2020, your

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renewable policies will have added �28 per megawatt hour to business -

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energy intensive business - compared to �15 in France and

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:15:23.:15:26.

Germany. You are making it more I have been working with the

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Department of business because of France and Germany support their

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energy intensive businesses in a way that we don't. We don't want to

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make those businesses here uncompetitive. The real thing...

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what is but answer? The real thing I am working with Vince Cable on is

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this huge economic opportunity, the green growth opportunity. The

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Chancellor has made clear it Infrastructure Investment it is a

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key part of growth strategy. Over half, around a half of them are

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National Infrastructure Plan is energy investment, or six times

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more than water. Investment here is critical to the growth strategy,

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and I believe it will deliver on the green agenda as well. We have a

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situation where our economic needs and environmental needs are coming

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together. The green sector is the fastest sector. More international

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investment in renewables than any other sector last year. This is a

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big British economic success story. For every job you think you are

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creating largely by subsidies in the Green economy, we don't know

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how many you are destroying in the non green economy. If British

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electricity prices for business are going to be rising twice as fast as

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France or Germany, you are going to put some of these businesses out of

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business. We have lost the aluminium industry, what is next?

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did not agree with your analysis. This is from the report. We are

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determined to make sure that the energy bills of business and

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consumers are affordable. I will be in that in this week ways to help

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consumers with energy bills. The real problem is the rising price of

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gas. Rising extremely in recent years, as your programme showed. It

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has hit consumers. Gas is used for electricity generation. To make

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sure we are less dependent on gas, less exposed to volatile fossil

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fuel prices from a broad, we need to make sure we can produce cleaner

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energy hear it in the UK to reduce out exposure to international

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fossil fuel prices, meaning we are less dependent upon energy from the

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other side of the world. That will improve affordability for

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businesses, and energy security. It is a sensible approach. It means we

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can have a diverse energy mix. Some say you should only do one

:18:19.:18:25.

particular technology. I believe we need a basket approach to minimise

:18:25.:18:29.

risk and cost for the British economy. There are reports at the

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weekend, your secret plot to get the Lib Dem leadership. It is so

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secret I have not heard about it! I am delighted to have yet another

:18:42.:18:47.

opportunity to deny that story, it is complete nonsense. You have not

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gone on a special new diet because you wait too many pies when you

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were in the pie factory! The many years ago. I take that sort of

:19:00.:19:10.
:19:10.:19:13.

story with a picture of a salt -- pinch.

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Maybe you should be standing for leadership, would you consider

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being Liberal Democrat leader? have the best Liberal Democrat

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leader we have ever had. I am immensely proud... Better than that

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Lloyd George? He was a Liberal leader. Nick Clegg would measure up

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well to Lloyd George, our most successful party leader for decades,

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doing an incredibly difficult job, brilliantly. This leadership talk

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the media love to focus on, it is not kicking off here in conference.

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There is not a single MP you have found against Nick Clegg. We are a

:20:00.:20:04.

united party. You should be asking the other parties how well they are

:20:04.:20:10.

united. We will, that is our job. If Nick Clegg is doing such a

:20:10.:20:16.

brilliant job, why do the polls show him as the least popular party

:20:16.:20:23.

leader since Michael Foot? Nick Clegg and the Liberal Democrats are

:20:23.:20:29.

not doing well in the polls. But some show he is doing better, you

:20:29.:20:34.

tend not to report those. It is amazing how people can be selective

:20:34.:20:39.

in the evidence they use. When I am in my constituency, talking to

:20:39.:20:45.

people, they do need to understand why we have taken the measures we

:20:45.:20:52.

have, while we had no choice but to make sure we had stable government

:20:52.:20:59.

mess. When people hear that, they are very receptive to the overall

:20:59.:21:05.

Liberal Democrat achievements. I do not deny we have to make the case,

:21:05.:21:08.

but we are making the case in Brighton, Nick Clegg will do so in

:21:08.:21:17.

his speech tomorrow. We are already taking two million of the lowest

:21:17.:21:24.

paid out of tax, giving tax cuts, that is a strong message to go to

:21:24.:21:34.
:21:34.:21:40.

the election. Do you see his chances as leader

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one day? What the two correspondent said

:21:45.:21:51.

earlier is bright, two different scenarios, be fought under a bus,

:21:51.:22:00.

if something terrible happened to my clerk. -- Nick Clegg. If we go

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through it and ordered process, there will be all sorts of

:22:04.:22:12.

candidates. Vince Cable is clearly the favourite.

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He is the best known. In many ways, he is, when you look at the polls,

:22:18.:22:23.

he is the only Liberal Democrat Member that the public recognise.

:22:23.:22:29.

Mind you, they don't recognise Tory Cabinet members either. Apart from

:22:29.:22:34.

Andrew Mitchell. That always depresses politicians that nobody

:22:34.:22:42.

knows who you are. Now, our last guest Ed Davey,

:22:42.:22:48.

revealed earlier this year that he worked in a factory as a teenager.

:22:48.:22:53.

But what did it make? Was it: a) Pork barrels? B) Pork sausages? C)

:22:53.:23:03.
:23:03.:23:03.

Pork pies? D) Pork scratchings? At the end of the show, Tim Razzall

:23:03.:23:07.

will attempt to give us the correct answer.

:23:07.:23:10.

Now, it's taken more than eight years, cost the tax payer millions

:23:10.:23:13.

of pounds, and even the Queen has expressed her concerns. But finally,

:23:13.:23:17.

radical cleric Abu Hamza al-Masri is to be deported to the US. The

:23:17.:23:20.

European Court of Human Rights has refused his final appeal, and that

:23:20.:23:24.

of four other terrorist suspects. And the Home Office say he will now

:23:24.:23:28.

be sent to the United States to face charges of setting up a

:23:28.:23:35.

terrorist training camp there. I'm joined now by Home Office Minister

:23:35.:23:42.

James Brokenshire. Abu Hamza was first arrested in made 2004. Why

:23:42.:23:48.

has it taken eight years? There has been a very long process

:23:48.:23:53.

attached to extradition, seeking to extradite a British citizen to

:23:53.:23:58.

another country. All lines of Appeal have now been exhausted and

:23:58.:24:06.

the decision by the European Court of Appeal has decided. We will move

:24:06.:24:13.

rapidly towards his practical extradition and handing over to the

:24:13.:24:20.

US authorities. How rapidly? next step is for the police and US

:24:20.:24:24.

marshals to deal with the logistics on the transfer of these

:24:24.:24:29.

individuals to the US authorities. By the end of the week? It is

:24:29.:24:33.

working through the practical arrangements. We are working

:24:33.:24:37.

closely, discussions this morning between officials, to see this does

:24:37.:24:42.

happen, recognising this has gone on for a long time. You must be

:24:42.:24:48.

able to say if it is within days or weeks? It will be a short matter of

:24:48.:24:54.

weeks, we hope it will be sooner than that, in terms of sorting out

:24:54.:24:58.

the practicalities, handing these individuals over to the US

:24:58.:25:04.

authorities, to face serious terrorist allegations. The public

:25:04.:25:09.

will also say, how much has it cost? There obviously is cost

:25:09.:25:14.

attached to any legal process, running into hundreds of thousands

:25:14.:25:21.

of Pounds, maybe even more than that. But the key points, we have

:25:21.:25:26.

an arrangement with the US that it is reciprocal. They will meet the

:25:26.:25:32.

cost of the extradition in respect of a case such as this. It must be

:25:32.:25:37.

more than hundreds of thousands? can't give you a figure, but Click

:25:37.:25:42.

it will be considerable. The arrangements we have, those costs

:25:42.:25:48.

will be met by the US authorities. If an extradition request is given

:25:48.:25:53.

to the UK, we consider that properly, there is a process. That

:25:54.:25:58.

has been exhausted and we want to move on and see these people handed

:25:58.:26:04.

to the US authorities. There is a campaign under way for private

:26:04.:26:10.

prosecutions for those people to be tried here? The Director of Public

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Prosecutions has looked at the evidence over an extended period.

:26:16.:26:19.

Looking at the human rights issues, with reference to the European

:26:19.:26:27.

Court. Our view is that the appeals have been exhausted. Ultimately,

:26:27.:26:33.

decisions over prosecution and not made by me as a minister, but by

:26:33.:26:36.

the Director of Public Prosecutions, and in this case, it has been

:26:36.:26:40.

considered, appropriately, that extradition should be the right way

:26:40.:26:47.

forward. We have heard campaigners, because the crimes were committed

:26:47.:26:53.

here, running a jihadist website, that he should be tried here.

:26:53.:26:58.

DPP has determined prosecution is not a probate in respect to these

:26:58.:27:05.

cases. Is there a worried they might be able to? We believe this

:27:05.:27:09.

matter has been looked at by the courts over such an extended pit

:27:09.:27:12.

that now is the time to say we should move on with a magician and

:27:12.:27:17.

these individuals should be handed over and face the serious terrorist

:27:17.:27:23.

allegations levelled against them. What can you learn from the fact it

:27:24.:27:30.

has taken eight years? The public are quite curious as to why these

:27:30.:27:39.

extradition procedures take so long. Abu Hamza is high profile. This is

:27:39.:27:44.

the sort of case the treaty was intended to cover. There is

:27:44.:27:49.

controversy when it is being used for alleged financial crimes. This

:27:49.:27:53.

applies within Europe, there are a lot of people, when there is an

:27:53.:27:57.

attempt to extradite people to look, where a huge amount of time takes

:27:57.:28:04.

place. Is it right? I do not think it is right, certainly not within

:28:04.:28:12.

the European Union. Not only do we know that Andrew

:28:12.:28:18.

Mitchell had lunch that day, we know what he had. Roasted fish with

:28:18.:28:28.
:28:28.:28:32.

spiced crab, chutney, �9.50. King prawns and Rice, �24. You get the

:28:32.:28:38.

big stories! Absurd. Liberal Democrats are in government

:28:38.:28:42.

for the first time since dinosaurs roamed the Earth. So, why the long

:28:42.:28:45.

faces from some Lib Dem activists? Could it be that some aren't so

:28:46.:28:50.

delighted about being in bed with the Conservatives? So, what if, as

:28:50.:28:52.

Vince Cable suggested in his speech yesterday, we're heading for

:28:52.:28:56.

another hung parliament after the next election? Who should Lib Dems

:28:56.:29:00.

do a deal with? Labour or Conservative? We sent Adam out with

:29:00.:29:08.

his mood box in Brighton. Today we are asking delegates who

:29:08.:29:12.

they would like to share power with a If the next election results in a

:29:12.:29:20.

hung Parliament? It has got to be Labour. Because we have already

:29:20.:29:24.

been in coalition with the Tories and it is sensible to show we can

:29:24.:29:32.

do both. Tories, because Labour screwed up the country so much last

:29:32.:29:39.

time. We are good as we are. Certainly not the Tories. I guess I

:29:39.:29:45.

will put it in Labour are being the least worst. Very optimistic!

:29:45.:29:52.

not trust either of them as far as I can throw them, so I do not know.

:29:52.:30:01.

Your ideal coalition arrangement? Greens. Wouldn't that be about 57

:30:01.:30:11.

MPs? Challenging, why not? would you rather be in coalition

:30:11.:30:20.

with at the next election if it is a hung Parliament? What message are

:30:20.:30:25.

you sending? It is not about coalition but about being in power

:30:25.:30:35.
:30:35.:30:42.

It is going pretty slowly. Do you want to do the Paul's this year? I

:30:42.:30:50.

will lend some money to your business bank will stop -- ate your

:30:50.:30:58.

business bank. Is it tricky? Who is your preferred coalition partner?

:30:58.:31:07.

Can I have two balls? Ministers are allowed to vote. I am scrupulously

:31:07.:31:17.
:31:17.:31:17.

impartial. Who is your preferred coalition partner next time around?

:31:17.:31:22.

I am not doing it on camera. As a minister, you have to juggle many

:31:23.:31:29.

balls. You might say, I could not possibly comment. I would rather

:31:29.:31:35.

stick pins in my eyes then go with Labour. We do not have a preferred

:31:35.:31:42.

coalition partner. That was absolutely exhausting. The majority

:31:42.:31:48.

of them have gone in that direction - towards Labour. I just like to

:31:48.:31:54.

get MPs to say balls. That is what it is all about. And our guest of

:31:54.:31:59.

the day, Lord Razzall, is still with me. Adam was struggling with

:31:59.:32:04.

his balls. What should the election strategy be for the Lib Dems in

:32:04.:32:11.

2015? There are a number of things. We will stand as an independent

:32:11.:32:14.

party. It will not be on the faces we will commit to be in coalition

:32:14.:32:24.
:32:24.:32:27.

with another party. -- on the basis. We will stand on the basis of the

:32:27.:32:37.
:32:37.:32:38.

list of things we want to achieve. -- a list of things. Do you agree

:32:38.:32:41.

with the former director of strategy that list should represent

:32:41.:32:49.

what he calls a brand of radical liberalism? Yes. Which is?

:32:49.:32:53.

sorts of things. What sort of policy would you expect in that

:32:53.:33:00.

list? We will have a huge element on the green agenda. There will be

:33:00.:33:07.

quite a lot on the schools system. Backing free schools? Probably not

:33:07.:33:13.

prominent. I think there will be huge stuff on the economy. There is

:33:13.:33:18.

bound to be. We will not be out of the economic problems at the moment

:33:18.:33:24.

by 2015. What would the radical liberalism side of that be? We will

:33:24.:33:34.

be more Keynesian going into the election than the Tories. So you do

:33:34.:33:43.

not agree with something more to the right. I am not sure that is

:33:43.:33:48.

the sort of thing you take into a coalition discussion. Because it

:33:48.:33:52.

would alienate potential Lib Dem voters on the left? You certainly

:33:52.:33:56.

do not fight an election campaign on the basis you would bash public

:33:56.:34:04.

sector workers. Nobody is going to advocate that. He was a close

:34:04.:34:10.

former director of strategy. He did not run the elections. So, he is

:34:10.:34:16.

wrong. The sort of thing he has been talking about - backing free

:34:16.:34:23.

schools, taking on vested interests - that will not win it. That sounds

:34:23.:34:28.

like Tony Blair. You think that will damage the Liberal Democrats?

:34:28.:34:33.

It is a question of emphasis. Taking on vested interests, I

:34:33.:34:40.

cannot quite see how that will play out in an election slogan. That is

:34:40.:34:46.

a long-term issue, which people will address in government, if

:34:46.:34:53.

there is a further coalition government. I do not think it is

:34:53.:34:57.

positioning for the party. Where should the Liberal Democrats'

:34:57.:35:01.

position themselves? If they go to some of the things that will appeal

:35:01.:35:07.

to soft Tory voters, bearing in mind they will fight a lot of

:35:07.:35:13.

marginals, they will risk losing those seats where they are in

:35:13.:35:21.

marginal seats with Labour. As a party, we have lost those who vote

:35:21.:35:27.

for us as a protest. We have lost them. The question is, can we

:35:27.:35:31.

attract voters who did not vote for us because they thought it was a

:35:31.:35:36.

wasted vote? That will be the real trick at the next election. To what

:35:36.:35:43.

extent the protest vote can be replaced, by those who said they

:35:43.:35:53.
:35:53.:35:54.

would not vote for us because we had no chance. I think at this

:35:54.:36:02.

stage, to end a half years and out, you never know with the polls. --

:36:02.:36:08.

two and a half years. There is an internal documents, which was

:36:08.:36:16.

prepared by Lib Dem people for the Office of Nick Clegg. It says, the

:36:16.:36:21.

party has no branding strategy. Staff lack research literacy.

:36:21.:36:24.

Campaigns are based on received wisdom, rather than any evidence

:36:24.:36:30.

that current tactics are working. Is that true? I have not seen it.

:36:30.:36:37.

What is your reaction? I do not agree. It says the Lib Dems were we

:36:37.:36:43.

have no evidence our tactics are working. Do you? I think we are far

:36:43.:36:51.

too way out of the election. We have the fixed-term parliament

:36:51.:36:53.

there of the stock having gone into the first serious peacetime

:36:53.:36:57.

coalition since the 1930s, you need five years to show coalition

:36:57.:37:06.

government can work in this way. -- fixed term Parliament Bill. Beware

:37:06.:37:11.

if you've got your money stashed away in Liechtenstein. It is a

:37:11.:37:21.
:37:21.:37:22.

little place between Switzerland and Austria will start --

:37:22.:37:25.

Switzerland and Austria. The Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Danny

:37:25.:37:28.

Alexander, has his eye on it. He's just been speaking to conference

:37:28.:37:32.

and has promised a major crackdown on tax-dodgers which could raise �4

:37:32.:37:42.
:37:42.:37:43.

billion a year for the Treasury. Fellow plebs, Viscount Thurso, I

:37:43.:37:49.

would like to talk to you. In fact, our conference slogan, fairer taxes

:37:49.:37:55.

in tough times. Thanks to the Liberal Democrats, taxes of getting

:37:55.:38:00.

fairer. Our tough budget negotiations mean that next year 24

:38:00.:38:06.

million people will benefit from the largest ever increase in the

:38:06.:38:09.

tax-free amount. From April, working people will have seen net

:38:09.:38:15.

income tax bill fall by �550 and 2 million of the lowest earners will

:38:15.:38:25.

have ceased to have paid any income tax at all. That is happening.

:38:25.:38:29.

Thanks. That is happening thanks to the Liberal Democrats in a

:38:29.:38:35.

coalition government. It would not be happening without you. Not

:38:36.:38:44.

everything about the budget Bishop was perfect. -- the budget this

:38:44.:38:49.

year. Junior church was getting married a few weeks after the

:38:49.:38:59.

budget in Cornwall. -- Junior Church. I made sure her prospective

:38:59.:39:04.

husband did not have a taste for pasties but I will still think of

:39:04.:39:14.
:39:14.:39:14.

that as four U-turns and a wedding! The income tax cut was by far the

:39:14.:39:19.

most important measure in the budget. People in this country will

:39:19.:39:23.

have �3 billion more of their own money to spend next year as a

:39:23.:39:27.

result. A cleaner working full-time on the minimum wage will see their

:39:27.:39:35.

tax bill Haft. That is thanks to the Liberal Democrats. -- reduced

:39:35.:39:40.

by half. Very soon, no one will pay income tax at all until they're

:39:40.:39:50.
:39:50.:39:51.

earning more than �10,000. That is thanks to the Liberal Democrats. We

:39:52.:39:57.

promised it in our manifesto. We campaign for it. We had the courage

:39:57.:40:02.

to go into coalition to deliver it. At the next election, we will

:40:02.:40:09.

promise to raise that figure yet further, to �12.5 million. You do

:40:10.:40:14.

not pay more income tax until you are earning more than a full-time

:40:14.:40:23.

salary on the minimum wage. In 2015, people will know that promise is

:40:23.:40:27.

credible. That is because we have delivered in government, thanks to

:40:27.:40:33.

the Liberal Democrats - truly a record of action and the promise of

:40:33.:40:39.

more. Now, it's fair taxes matter because times are tough. The

:40:39.:40:44.

spending power of most people's pay packets have fallen over the last

:40:44.:40:49.

five years. For too many, the spectre of unemployment has become

:40:49.:40:54.

a painful reality. For the country as a whole, the adjustment to the

:40:54.:40:58.

level of government spending and taxation we can afford is painful

:40:58.:41:02.

and difficult. When we came into office, we knew things were bad.

:41:02.:41:07.

The truth is, we did not know how bad. The damage that the crisis has

:41:07.:41:13.

done to our economy is even deeper than we first thought. The head

:41:13.:41:18.

wins of high inflation and the eurozone are stronger than anyone

:41:18.:41:22.

imagines. The mess Labour left worse than they would ever admit -

:41:22.:41:30.

let alone apologise for. Now, having heard all of that, you might

:41:30.:41:35.

think I am pessimistic. He could not be more wrong. We have a

:41:35.:41:39.

government determined to do the right thing for the long term. Over

:41:39.:41:45.

the last two years, we have laid strong foundations for a stronger

:41:45.:41:50.

economy. I am fundamentally optimistic for the future. Because

:41:50.:41:54.

there are brilliant businesses - talented and hard-working people in

:41:54.:41:58.

every corner of this country - who make this one of the best places to

:41:58.:42:07.

do business in the world. Like the members of the Bristol Junior

:42:07.:42:12.

Chamber of Commerce, who I met with our brilliant mayoral candidate on

:42:12.:42:15.

Thursday, enthusing about the opportunities for young people to

:42:15.:42:19.

start their own businesses. Like the small manufacturing company I

:42:19.:42:27.

visited in Cardiff with our inspiring election candidate. A

:42:27.:42:31.

business that has grown and is providing much-needed jobs in the

:42:31.:42:36.

local area, like the massive chemicals plant I visited in Redcar.

:42:36.:42:40.

It is growing with the help of a Regional Growth Fund grant. These

:42:40.:42:50.

people are the growth makers, the job makers. Our job is to help them.

:42:50.:42:57.

Last year, at this conference, I announced the growing places and.

:42:57.:43:04.

This is to fund local areas to unlock new jobs. I can tell you

:43:04.:43:09.

that the fund has already helped fund around 170 projects,

:43:09.:43:19.
:43:19.:43:19.

supporting an estimated 178,000 jobs. Now, conference, the economy

:43:19.:43:23.

has rightly been the central focus of this party conference. Yesterday

:43:23.:43:26.

had an excellent debate on some of the further measures we would like

:43:26.:43:32.

to cease -- like to see to support growth. Vince Cable gave a

:43:32.:43:35.

brilliant speech, setting out the work his department is doing to

:43:35.:43:40.

help clear up the mess left by Labour. I dare say the

:43:40.:43:44.

congratulatory text message from Ed Miliband has been unavoidably

:43:44.:43:52.

delayed. He has come out with a new economic theory this month. Pru

:43:52.:43:55.

distribution. Apparently, it means, spending money you do not have

:43:55.:44:00.

without knowing where that money is going to come from in future.

:44:00.:44:06.

Conference, it is not in United, it is a bad old one. Labour spent 13

:44:06.:44:12.

years trying it. -- not a new idea. Labour do not like us talking about

:44:12.:44:17.

their record in office but the country can never be allowed to

:44:17.:44:22.

forget their disastrous mistakes in banking, in regulation, in the

:44:22.:44:26.

public finances - falsely promising the British people they could end

:44:26.:44:36.
:44:36.:44:36.

boom and bust. That was the chief secretary to the Treasury. He moved

:44:36.:44:40.

on from the jokes which fell a little flat to more economic

:44:40.:44:44.

substance. He was very proud of the efforts being done to track down

:44:45.:44:48.

tax dodgers in Liechtenstein and he went and talked about how the

:44:48.:44:53.

gunman was going to guarantee the building of the trains - the

:44:53.:45:00.

coaches that will run on the CrossRail link. -- at the

:45:00.:45:10.
:45:10.:45:13.

We live in an age of apology, we have heard Nick Clegg, Andrew

:45:13.:45:16.

Mitchell. Is it time for Labour to say sorry for piling up so much

:45:16.:45:21.

debt while in government? We have apologised for not regulating the

:45:21.:45:26.

bounce sufficiently. Here and around the world, we should have

:45:26.:45:32.

demanded more. What about the debt? If you look at the financial crisis,

:45:32.:45:42.
:45:42.:45:46.

debt fell to 36% of GDP. The size of the economy rose. In the good

:45:46.:45:53.

years, you are meant to build up a surplus. But between May 1997 and

:45:53.:46:02.

January 2008, before the crash, your government increased debt from

:46:02.:46:11.

�351 billion, to �512 billion, 45%. That doesn't enclose Network Rail

:46:11.:46:14.

or PFIs. Would you like to apologise for racking up non-stop

:46:14.:46:20.

debts, in years when you should have been running a surplus.

:46:20.:46:25.

were running a surplus in that some of those years, particularly in the

:46:25.:46:30.

early years of government. The in one year when you sold the airways.

:46:30.:46:39.

What matters is the debt as a share of the economy. If you have been --

:46:39.:46:44.

up an economy which is bigger, you can have a debt which is bigger. We

:46:44.:46:52.

faced a situation where NHS waiting lists... I am simply saying you had

:46:52.:46:58.

consistent growth for 10 years. we bought down the debt burden.

:46:58.:47:03.

some stage you should have run a surplus so when the bad times came,

:47:03.:47:11.

you wouldn't have ended up with �512 billion of debt. We had the

:47:11.:47:17.

second lowest debt to GDP ratio in BGA it when the financial crisis

:47:17.:47:23.

hit in 2007. We did reduce that debt burden in that period. But

:47:23.:47:27.

when the financial crisis hit, we had to make a decision on whether

:47:27.:47:36.

we would stick to spending plans. We did reduce the debt. You hear

:47:36.:47:42.

from Brighton, talk about texting people who live in big homes --

:47:42.:47:51.

taxing. Making the 10% highest income as paying more, all of that

:47:51.:47:56.

must be music to your ears? have to judge politicians on what

:47:56.:48:06.
:48:06.:48:07.

they say, what they deliver. If we judge you on what you say... If you

:48:07.:48:10.

look at the Liberal Democrats, what they are saying, it is all good

:48:10.:48:17.

stuff. Let us give them the benefit of the doubt. They can't deliver it

:48:17.:48:24.

with the Tories, but they could with you. Are you up for that?

:48:24.:48:29.

for example, the Liberal Democrats had all voted against the increase

:48:29.:48:35.

in tuition fees, or had all voted against the reduction in the top

:48:35.:48:43.

rate of tax... We have said we're willing to work with anybody on

:48:43.:48:50.

plans towards mansion tax, high- value properties. I understand that.

:48:50.:48:54.

Your point is clearly right, to say we can't deliver them, we don't yet

:48:54.:49:01.

know what we have to do. We have to persuade our coalition partners.

:49:01.:49:08.

is unlikely the Tories will give you are a wealth tax. How do you

:49:08.:49:14.

define a wealth tax? George Osborne has said it in principle he is in

:49:14.:49:24.

favour of moving tax more towards wealth and income. Lots of

:49:24.:49:30.

millionaires don't earn a million, it is because they have turned to

:49:31.:49:40.
:49:41.:49:46.

hundred �1,000 and grown it. -- earned �100,000. I suspect it in

:49:46.:49:56.

the last tax year, budget, George Osborne came very close to

:49:56.:50:02.

implementing a mansion tax. You are more likely to get all of that with

:50:02.:50:07.

the Labour Party. More likely. Than you would with the Tories. That may

:50:07.:50:11.

well be the case but we are not with the Labour Party and the

:50:11.:50:16.

elections are not for 2 1/2 years. What will happen after the election

:50:16.:50:20.

if there is a hung Parliament, I assumed we will do as we did this

:50:20.:50:25.

time. Are you giving thought to having some kind of deal with the

:50:25.:50:29.

Liberal Democrats? We are campaigning for a Labour victory at

:50:29.:50:35.

the next election. We have another 2 1/2 years. It is about what

:50:35.:50:39.

happens in between. If we can work with the Liberal Democrats or any

:50:39.:50:45.

other power now on policies that will be fairer on families, a match

:50:45.:50:51.

and tax, rather than a massive cut to tax credits. The Lib Dems have

:50:51.:50:55.

to fight their corner. If they say they think people who are wealthier

:50:55.:51:00.

should be taxed more, they should not have voted for that cut in a

:51:00.:51:10.
:51:10.:51:15.

top rate of tax. The Lib Dems in Scotland may be far from government,

:51:15.:51:19.

but they are part of a coalition with the Tories and Labour, against

:51:19.:51:21.

Scottish independence. However, their effectiveness in that

:51:21.:51:24.

campaign has been somewhat blunted by disastrous results in the last

:51:24.:51:27.

Holyrood parliamentary elections. They were reduced to a rump of just

:51:27.:51:31.

five MSPs. The party north of the border blames its demise on the

:51:31.:51:34.

other coalition, the one in Westminster. But how do the

:51:34.:51:41.

north of the border? David Thompson reports.

:51:41.:51:46.

A much designed to beat the drum for independence. Has the biggest

:51:46.:51:50.

political decision Scotland will make in 300 years really capture

:51:50.:51:54.

the public imagination? In terms of looking for signs on the ground,

:51:54.:51:59.

there was a rally in Edinburgh on Saturday which attracted a crowd of

:51:59.:52:05.

5,000 people. Not insubstantial but probably not as many as the

:52:05.:52:09.

organisers were hoping for. One of the main players in the anti-

:52:09.:52:12.

independence campaign are the Scottish Liberal Democrats. They

:52:12.:52:19.

took a pasting at the last elections. What is frustrating for

:52:19.:52:23.

the Liberal Democrats in Scotland is all of our good work in Scotland

:52:23.:52:30.

focused on devolved issues in Scotland, are being overshadowed by

:52:30.:52:34.

difficulties in London. The latest of which has been the apology by

:52:34.:52:44.
:52:44.:52:48.

Nick Clegg on tuition fees. That had a bad effect in Scotland. One

:52:48.:52:52.

other reasons why I am no longer an MSP and we lost our mainland seats

:52:52.:52:56.

in Scotland last year. Which is why people might think all that

:52:57.:52:59.

independence might be a mistake for Scotland, it could work for the

:52:59.:53:04.

Scottish Liberal Democrats. Scotland we have to make it clear

:53:04.:53:10.

to the people in Scotland and south of the border that, in fact, we are

:53:10.:53:17.

a distinct party. That means having English Liberal Democrats. At the

:53:17.:53:24.

moment, in theory, we are a federal party. But there is no formal name

:53:24.:53:28.

for the English Liberal Democrats. There is for the Welsh Liberal

:53:28.:53:36.

Democrats. It is not true federalism. The independence

:53:36.:53:45.

referendum itself is an issue. Paul's in Scotland always confirm

:53:45.:53:51.

people in Scotland want a beefed up Liberal Democrat party. We have

:53:51.:53:58.

been the prime movers for home rule. This is a real opportunity for the

:53:58.:54:02.

Scottish Liberal Democrats to lead here, take the vanguard, for

:54:02.:54:06.

increased powers for Scottish Parliament. But people would have

:54:06.:54:09.

to start taking the Scottish Liberal Democrats seriously again

:54:09.:54:14.

which brings us back to where we started. The Lib Dems have been

:54:14.:54:19.

marginalised in the independence debate, because, it is clear

:54:19.:54:23.

whenever they stick their heads above the parapet, Alex Salmond

:54:23.:54:28.

reminds everyone of their association with the Conservatives.

:54:28.:54:35.

A vote on independence is at least two years away. Whether Scottish

:54:35.:54:42.

Liberal Democrats will be, who knows. Willie Rennie, the Leader of

:54:42.:54:46.

the Scottish Liberal Democrats, joins us from conference.

:54:46.:54:52.

Your party has taken a hammering in Scotland in recent elections. In

:54:52.:54:59.

Scottish Parliament elections, your party's worst election performance.

:54:59.:55:05.

What is your plan? The plan is to set out what we believe, standing

:55:05.:55:12.

up for big liberal values in Scotland. That is why we stand up

:55:12.:55:16.

on their tax, making sure we invest in colleges, housing, early

:55:16.:55:21.

intervention. We have made progress on that already. Even though there

:55:21.:55:24.

are only five of us in Scottish Parliament, we have managed to get

:55:24.:55:31.

big concessions. Is the problem that you are not being heard,

:55:31.:55:37.

people don't trust you, because of the activities of the coalition in

:55:37.:55:43.

Westminster? Do you agree with that? Of course the coalition is an

:55:43.:55:47.

issue but you are in politics to do the right thing, to get the economy

:55:47.:55:53.

back on track, and bring fairness to the country. We are in step with

:55:53.:55:57.

the majority of public opinion on more powers for the Scottish

:55:57.:56:01.

Parliament, by far the most popular policy to have home rule for

:56:01.:56:06.

Scotland. Raising more money to spend it on issues important for

:56:06.:56:14.

Scotland. That is what we are in step with. Do you think that is

:56:14.:56:19.

really going to win you back all of those seats you have lost. Five

:56:19.:56:25.

MSPs. How far do you blame the activities of the coalition in

:56:25.:56:31.

London? I tend not to blame anybody because we are one-party working

:56:31.:56:36.

together in a partnership to deal with this economic crisis. I would

:56:36.:56:39.

be no doubt in my duties if I thought I could distance myself

:56:39.:56:49.
:56:49.:56:53.

from that. -- neglecting. Your predecessor said for 12 years there

:56:53.:56:57.

has been a Scottish solution, a different way, and we will build on

:56:57.:57:03.

that. He distanced himself from Westminster, and it worked. He set

:57:03.:57:09.

out his strategy. He was very good at advocating on some unique

:57:09.:57:15.

policies, like releasing money for Scottish water to invest in capital

:57:15.:57:23.

infrastructure. It was difficult. What you like about Nick Clegg?

:57:23.:57:28.

think he is a man of great principle. All you had to do is

:57:28.:57:32.

spend five minutes with him to see that he has a full grasp of British

:57:32.:57:39.

politics. He doesn't shy away from difficult challenges. He is very

:57:39.:57:46.

good at addressing them. How do sell Nick Clegg in Scotland?

:57:46.:57:49.

bringing him up to Scotland more often, as we are doing, showing

:57:49.:57:53.

that he really cares about issues like mental health, early

:57:53.:58:01.

intervention, nursery education, the pupil premium, these are the

:58:01.:58:08.

policies that showed the fairness side of the Liberal Democrats.

:58:08.:58:15.

time to get the answer to the quiz. Ed Davey used to work in a factory,

:58:15.:58:25.
:58:25.:58:34.

but what did it make? Any idea, Tim? C) Pork pies. He also made

:58:34.:58:38.

Scotch eggs. That's all for today. Thanks to all

:58:38.:58:41.

our guests, especially Tim Razzall. The one o'clock news is starting

:58:41.:58:45.

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