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Afternoon, folks. Welcome to our Daily Politics conference special

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on the Labour Party Conference in Manchester. Indeed two specials for

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the price of one today. We're on air until 1pm today then back at

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2pm here on BBC2 because, in just over just over two hours, Ed

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Miliband makes his big annual speech to conference - this time

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with the specific aim of selling Ed A local comprehensive school.

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a comprehensive school like I did. And it's not all about Ed's

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schooling. Labour unveil the technical Baccalaureate saying they

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will invest �1 billion in what they are calling the forgotten 50%, who

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don't got to university. And we ask delegates to react to calls from

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the biggest union boss of all to kick Blairites out of the Labour

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Party. I am writing a book about where -- wife Blairites should

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never be allowed back. I am sure we can all hardly wait to read that.

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Did you know that Ed Miliband went to a comprehensive? All that in the

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next hour. And with us for the duration, not one but two top

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opinion pollsters, Andrew Hawkins of Com Res and Stephan Shakespeare

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of YouGov. Welcome to you both. A lot to talk about. And where better

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to start than with the latest opinion poll to look at Ed

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Miliband's popularity. The ComRes poll for theIndependent shows

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Labour's lead falling from seven points last month to just three

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points ahead on 38% with the Conservatives on a steady 35% and

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the Lib Dems up three points to 15%. This gives Labour a far smaller

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lead than the polls we mentioned on the programme yesterday.

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Unfortunately, for Mr Miliband, the ComRes poll is consistent with

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others in suggesting that many people doubt his leadership

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credentials. Just 22% of people believed Mr Miliband would make a

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good Prime Minister that compares to 39% who think Cameron makes a

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good PM. And only 24% of people say they trust Mr Miliband and the

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Shadow Chancellor, Ed Balls, to make the right decisions on the

:03:05.:03:15.
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economy. Isn't this quite remarkable? You had him ahead at 5%

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at the weekend. You have now got him at three. I know it

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shuttlecocks around a little bit. When the think of the state of the

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economy, the squeeze of living standards, the deficit rising again,

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the coalition at each other's throats, frankly, I am a raise --

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amazed at how low the Labour lead is. We should preface with the

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electoral geography means Labour would still get a workable majority.

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Mid-term there. That is shocking. It is after the Lib Dem Conference.

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Come 2015, we will have another situation on our hands, as in 2010,

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where the coverage that the Liberal Democrat leader gets at the time

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will give him a boost in the polls at the expense of Labour. It is a

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straight switch we saw today from Labour to the Liberal Democrats.

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Not a huge switch but it shows house of the Labour lead is. Your

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poll went back up to nine. It seems like the Labour lead is struggling

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to get over 10. Are we seeing a softening of the Labour position?

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think we are. We're seeing a softening of loyalty across all

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parties, especially at the moment with Labour. Why? People see things

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going wrong and they do not think anyone has the answer. Why softer

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for Labour? They are in opposition. The party is united. They have a

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new young leader. They're not whipping themselves apart.

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problem is that they have not found their voice. The whole thing about

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pointy head and proud of it reminds me as when they were of rebranding

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Duncan-Smith. That is what happens when you flounder around and you

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have not until voice. Isn't it astonishing that not only due to

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root out of 10 people think Ed Miliband is prime ministerial

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material? -- two out of 10. Almost half of the Labour supporters think

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he is not prime-ministerial come material. 42% do. That is even

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Stevens. It comes down to one single issue and that is the

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economy. We saw one of the latest trackers last week which shows the

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economy has been the number one issue since 2007. On that, Ed

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Miliband, the only person on the main parties who has lectured in

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economics at Harvard, he is unable to get across his message on the

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number one thing. He is also a drag on the party's ratings. That is

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again apparent from today's poll, from both the economic trust

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figures and there would make a good Prime Minister figures. David

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Cameron pulls his party up. significant is it that all the

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polls show the Conservatives more trusted than Labour on the economy?

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If he cannot give him the coalition's economic strategy is in

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trouble at the moment, if you've cannot be seen to be more trusted

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than the coalition at the moment, Labour would be in trouble.

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economy is the question of the day. The economy will be the question of

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the next election. It will not be about the next election, it will be

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about the economy. To not be ahead when things are really bad is bad.

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If they do not find a boy soon they have missed an opportunity. -- a

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buoys. You can be a toff and run the economy competently, people do

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not want and incompetent leader, even if they come across as an

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ordinary bloke like them. I guess we know why they're doing all this

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building up - trying to build up his personality and character.

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People getting to know him is the big issue of this conference. We

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will find that out in a moment because we will go to the

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conference. Now the big theme emerging from Labour conference

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today is education. There's Ed Miliband's plan for a shake-up in

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vocational courses, but there's also a big emphasis on the Labour

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leader's own time at school. No, not the primary school he went to

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with Boris Johnson, but the secondary school which he says

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taught him to get on with people whatever their background. And just

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to make sure no-one misses the point, Labour's going to show a

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party political broadcast on television on Wednesday night

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highlighting his school years. Here's a flavour. In the early 80s,

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I was the deputy head of a local comprehensive school in the London

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Borough of Camden. That is, of course, where I met Ed Bona -- Ed

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Miliband. The education I got was so much more than have to pass

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exams. It was about how to look after yourself, the world is a

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complex place with people of all kinds and all nationalities - all

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classes and races. That is the really important lesson in life.

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make a journey like that from a local comprehensive school to

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teaching at Harvard, you have probably got to have that knowledge.

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Coming from a comprehensive like I did, may be that does give you a

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different perspective when you end up somewhere like Harvard. I do not

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know. He came across as a very decent bloke. A few highlights of

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Labour's latest party political broadcast there, and you may just

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have got the message that Ed Miliband went to a comprehensive.

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If you have not come up watch it again on Wednesday. I would like to

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check that! To discuss that film and the mood at Labour conference

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in Manchester let's talk to Rosa Prince of the Daily Telegraph and

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Rowenna Davis of the New Statesman. I am presuming you have seen this.

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What did he make of it? It is very glossy and glowing - very Hollywood.

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Also a bit strange. Do you really need to a head from the deputy

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headmaster of Ed Miliband and his friend saying how good he was at

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maths. Do we need to hear how he was a top professor at Harvard? At

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one stage, Labour will accept they have got Ed Miliband, rather than

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telling us all about his problems. Just get on with it and get on with

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some policies and let's have something to hear from the rest of

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the Labour team. That is a point of view. But Ed Miliband is trying to

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do in that video is convinced the public that not all politicians are

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the same. Public perception is that all politicians belong to the top

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1%. He is saying, I have a story to tell. I was the son of migrants and

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I went to a comprehensive school, which is very different from David

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Cameron. It is interesting that most people have written him off.

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Two years ago, Ed Miliband was considered impossible as Labour

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leader. Bennett was inconceivable. Now it is possible, maybe even

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probable. When half of Labour supporters are not convinced he

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would make a Prime Minister, that Jenny has stalled if you like. Will

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this help him cut through, which he has not done yet? -- journey.

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year, he laid out a very philosophical vision about the

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nature of the country and responsible capitalism and the

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squeezed middle. That was dismissed by everyone. Now it is the

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competing grand that all parties are trying to win. What he has to

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do is to present those terms in concrete and practical ways which

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will resound with the people of the country. How we make a difference

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to them in an everyday sense? you knew him better, you would like

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him off - that is the point of this speech - and the point of this

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movie. That is what they're trying to say. As much as they are trying

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to say, this is Ed Miliband, get to know him and like him. They are

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also trying to say that David Cameron went to Eton. He is cashing

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in, though he is not going to say the word, pleb in his speech I he

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is highlighting the difference he feels there is between the

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Conservative Cabinet and his background. I been that is a bit

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dangerous. To say that most people went to comprehensive school,

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aren't I great? Do we not want a bit more grown up politics? Isn't

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the real problem that people do not know who he is yet? They do not

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know who he is. The most famous thing you could argue it is the

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fight with his brother. Exactly the stuff we need to move on a debate

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ENG keep telling the story. -- exactly. He will never be the

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ultimate charisma politician. It will be about whether a trust can

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win out over that sense of charisma. Ed Miliband has demonstrated he has

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a set of policy ideas which resonate where people are at the

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moment. If you keep telling that story over and again, he started

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off from a position where he was considered a write-off and now he

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has a voice and that form a way of talking about him today. I suppose

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there is a case to be made and Ed Miliband is trying to say he is a

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man of ideas was dug talking about being a nerd, to contrast

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presumably with what David Cameron is trying to say and that is he is

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a shallow. I think David Cameron does have a shallow problem. I'm

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not sure if the solution is to say how intelligent Ed Miliband is. You

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are right to raise the problem of David Miliband. The idea he is

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awkward and not a real person. As well as the tangible effects of

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having a family around, I think it played really badly in the public.

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People thought, I would not do that to my brother. That will continue

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to be something that plagues him. To go on about how bright he is and

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how smart. We had a Harvard professor on earlier in the week

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who talked about all sorts of strange things. I am not sure that

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is the answer. I think he needs to do a little more of David Cameron

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showing the family. I despise that as a means of campaigning but it

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seems to work for David Cameron. Perhaps that would rip the toxic

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Pointy head is an American expression for intellectuals. The

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mix in the administration used to talk about the pointy headed,

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That is what it is, pointy head. Consider this conundrum. You are an

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ordinary comprehensive school- educated son of a Marxist professor.

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You are lucky in intellect, but not in love. He joined a dating site.

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Imagine your horror when you turn up and find out that your date does

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not share your views on Prix Distribution, predators, producers

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or anything beginning with the letter P. Ed is happily hitched now.

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But love 6th Labour types need longer -- lovesick labour market

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types need worry no longer. They are being encouraged to register at

:15:59.:16:04.

leftwingdating. It even has suggestions as to where you might

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want to cook up with like minded to potential partners, like a romantic

:16:09.:16:15.

TUC demonstration, for example. The Daily Politics is not a dating

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service, in case it escaped your notice. But we could for queue up

:16:19.:16:29.
:16:29.:16:29.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 82 seconds

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Let's see if you can remember when To be in with a chance of winning a

:17:52.:17:55.

Daily Politics mug, send your answer to our special e-mail

:17:55.:18:05.
:18:05.:18:07.

address. You can see the full terms I think Ed Miliband went to wake

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comprehensive... Education, education, education. Remember that,

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from Mr Blair? What about vocational training, vocational

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training, vocational training? It doesn't have the same ring to it.

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But it is something we are expecting to hear a bit of this

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Listen carefully. It seems everybody wants a bit of the France

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dans l'ecole at the moment. We have had Monsieur Gove's idea of the

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English baccalaureate certificate. And now Ed le Rouge wants to reform

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qualifications in England with a new Technical baccalaureate. Guess

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what, this would be a gold standard as well. He will say he wants to

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focus on the forgotten 50% of school-leavers who do not go to

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university. His aides say that only 1% of students on NVQ courses end

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up with jobs on some courses. Students who take the new Technical

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baccalaureate would also have to study English and maths as a strict

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condition. Details are vague, but he wants businesses to have a role

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in devising the courses. He also wants to give them �1 billion of

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government money to reshape apprenticeships, which teenagers

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can transferring to once they have got their Technical baccalaureate.

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The shadow Work and Pensions Secretary Liam Byrne joins us now

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from Manchester. Good to see you. Your education spokesman has

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criticised the Government for returning to a two tier system. But

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if you have, as you are proposing, one set of qualifications for

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academic kids and another for everybody else, that might be the

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right thing to do but it is two- tier in anybody's language? No, I

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don't think so. It's about making sure there are very high standards

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maintained and, indeed, created, no matter what route we take. Whether

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it is a vocational or academic. We have a system today that gives you

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a very clear path through, if you are taking an academic route. If

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you are 14 and you want to go to university, it's a pretty clear

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route. GCSE, A-levels, university, in to work. The same choice is not

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so clear if you are 14 and you want to go to a vocational route and

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into work. It's too complicated. We need to create a very clear route

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through and make sure that there are world-class qualifications

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available at 18. These changes we are announcing today are big ideas.

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I think they have been welcomed right across the business community.

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They are big ideas, interesting ideas. But it sounds like to tears

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to me, may be trying to make those equal, and they have succeeded in

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Germany in doing that, but I wonder if we could in Britain? How many

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kids from Eton or Harrow do you think will want to take the

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Technical baccalaureate? A I'm sorry, the sound quality is very

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bad. I apologise. I was saying that what he described sounded like a

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two-tier system to me. You were trying to make them of equal status,

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but there are still two, and only the Germans have managed to make

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them of equal status. I wondered if we could do that in this country.

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For example, how many kids from Eton or harrowed do you think would

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be applying to do the Technical baccalaureate? I don't know enough

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about the aspirations, I'm afraid, of students at Eton. A lot of

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people in constituencies like mine really hunger for that high quality

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vocational route. If you take Jaguar Land Rover, a big plant on

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the edge of my constituency, they operate apprenticeships right now

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that are harder to get into than Oxford. What they want is the

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wherewithal to expand the apprenticeship they have one of

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careful stop giving business a much more direct and in how those

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apprenticeships are shaped, created and expanded is something they are

:22:07.:22:10.

going to welcome. Crucially, you have got to have people applying

:22:10.:22:14.

for those apprenticeships that have the technical skills that

:22:14.:22:16.

businesses like Jaguar Land Rover needs. We've got to get the

:22:16.:22:20.

curriculum right and we got to make sure that maths and English is

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sustained wall of the way up to 18 as part of getting the

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qualification. I understand that and I understand you are involving

:22:27.:22:30.

business as well. You have some money available, or you say there

:22:30.:22:37.

will be, anyway. When Mr Miliband says he wants kids not only to

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aspire to Oxford and Cambridge, but two excellent technical colleges

:22:41.:22:47.

and delete vocational institutions. Can you name one in this country? -

:22:47.:22:57.
:22:57.:23:00.

Of course, Britain has some of the best universities. Can he would

:23:00.:23:05.

name an elite vocational institution? We got to give

:23:05.:23:08.

business a much more direct say in the way that those institutions are

:23:08.:23:12.

created. They are not going to be formed by business on their own or

:23:12.:23:15.

buy the estate on their own. But the Government and business working

:23:15.:23:18.

together stands a fighting chance of getting it right. As you hinted

:23:18.:23:24.

like Germany have got this right. We know that the world is going to

:23:24.:23:29.

become far more competitive over the next few years, as the rise of

:23:29.:23:35.

China continues to change the environment for business. We do not

:23:35.:23:38.

compete when we leave 1 million young people out of work, as we do

:23:38.:23:43.

right now. I think there is one thing that it has shown, it is that

:23:43.:23:45.

we need far more sustained effort to get young people into work.

:23:45.:23:49.

Crucially, we need to make sure that young people are coming into a

:23:49.:23:53.

competitive labour market with the right skills to do the job. Isn't

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it indicative of the scale of the problem that you face, a problem

:23:56.:24:01.

that has been with us since Victorian times, that whereas we

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can all Niemi elite universities, you could not name an elite

:24:06.:24:11.

vocational institution? I think part of the complexity has been

:24:11.:24:21.
:24:21.:24:21.

that it is a very complicated Watt for education. -- route. If you

:24:21.:24:24.

look at technical education, you get the sense that it is too

:24:25.:24:32.

complicated. There are different qualifications which are good for

:24:32.:24:36.

different types of trade. We want to bring some order to that, which

:24:36.:24:40.

is why we are saying that business needs to be intimately involved in

:24:40.:24:43.

figuring out what are the best qualifications for different

:24:43.:24:47.

vocational routes and different trades in different industries. I

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think that is what has been missing, that effective partnership between

:24:51.:24:54.

government and business. That is something that we have not mastered

:24:54.:25:01.

yet. I wish you luck on that, it has been a problem since the Royal

:25:01.:25:05.

Commission in 1868 identified the problem. We will see how you get

:25:06.:25:10.

going in trying to put it right. I want to move quickly on to the

:25:10.:25:15.

polling, which shows Labour's lead down to 3% in the Independent this

:25:15.:25:22.

morning. Even half of Labour voters do not think that Ed Miliband is

:25:22.:25:26.

prime-ministerial material. That isn't great as a backdrop to his

:25:26.:25:31.

speech? The polls had been bouncing around for a while. The cons

:25:32.:25:39.

distant trend as you look back is up. I think we forget rather too

:25:39.:25:41.

easily for the election result that we secured only a couple of years

:25:41.:25:47.

ago. We lost 1 million votes in the last election. We lost the services

:25:47.:25:50.

of over 90 MPs. It's one of the worst results in our party's

:25:50.:25:55.

history. What Ed Miliband has done over the last couple of years is an

:25:55.:25:58.

incredible achievement. If you ask people, which is the party that

:25:58.:26:02.

most relates to my values, which shares my values, Labour

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overwhelmingly wins. That is a radical shift of where we were two

:26:07.:26:12.

years ago. Two years ago, two- thirds of working people said that

:26:12.:26:15.

Labour was out of touch or seriously out of touch with my life

:26:15.:26:19.

and values. The White People's Party, that was a hell of an

:26:19.:26:27.

achievement. -- for a People's Party. Ed Miliband has shifted our

:26:27.:26:31.

party up from anywhere between 8 and 10 points. I think that's a

:26:31.:26:35.

hell of an achievement. I had two pollsters in the studio. Don't go

:26:35.:26:39.

away. Is he right to say that the consistent trend is an increase in

:26:39.:26:43.

the Labour lead? Not that we have seen over the last four was six

:26:44.:26:49.

months. It is coming under pressure. I think the real danger for Labour

:26:49.:26:54.

is that of but one issue, the economy, there has been no

:26:54.:26:58.

appreciable change, no shift at all interested that top team on the

:26:58.:27:08.
:27:08.:27:09.

Labour side over the past 18 months. To quote an old phrase, you can't

:27:09.:27:13.

back a pig on market day. At some point, that figure has to come up

:27:13.:27:18.

for the Labour vote to be solidified. Given the state of the

:27:18.:27:23.

economy and the coalition, it's remarkable that people do not still

:27:23.:27:28.

trust your party on the economy? think there is a growing sense that

:27:28.:27:33.

the economy and the Government's economic plan has not worked out

:27:33.:27:37.

well. A lot of people put their trust in this government at the

:27:37.:27:43.

last election. They bought into the plan that was put on the table. Now

:27:43.:27:47.

they are deeply dissatisfied with the way that it is turning out.

:27:47.:27:54.

they still don't trust you. Well, look, we have still got a lot more

:27:54.:27:58.

to do to convince people that we are the right team for the job

:27:58.:28:02.

after 2015. What Ed has done is he has built a united team, he has set

:28:02.:28:06.

the tempo for the political debate. People are going to look at what

:28:06.:28:09.

specific policies we put on the table as we get closer to the

:28:09.:28:13.

election. I think people have got a clear sense that this government's

:28:13.:28:17.

economic plan has failed. They put us back into a double-dip recession.

:28:17.:28:20.

The only other country in Europe in that position is Italy. What does

:28:20.:28:25.

that mean for the debt? It means the death at the next election will

:28:25.:28:29.

be �450 billion higher than the last election. That is not a bad

:28:29.:28:39.
:28:39.:28:41.

job successful start don't go away. We will see to do something about

:28:41.:28:45.

your sound. The boss of Britain's biggest union

:28:45.:28:49.

and Labour's biggest financial backer, Len McClusky, has called

:28:49.:28:53.

for Blairites to be kicked out of the Labour Party. We decided to

:28:53.:28:57.

send Adam out with his balls. No where at this conference will

:28:57.:29:02.

you see the word new anywhere near the word Labour. So, what should

:29:02.:29:08.

Blairites do? Should they stay or should they go? Stay. Blairites

:29:08.:29:15.

found their way to bring his party back into an exceptional form of

:29:15.:29:20.

progressive politics. Why should they go? We need a fresh start, we

:29:20.:29:25.

need to go in a new direction. It didn't do us any favours, we lost

:29:25.:29:29.

will stop is the party Blairite enough for you at the moment?

:29:29.:29:33.

probably about the right balance, the right level of unity. I am

:29:33.:29:37.

writing a book about why Blairites should never be allowed back.

:29:37.:29:42.

you like to give buyers a summary? They lost the traditional values.

:29:42.:29:47.

We looked down our traditional constituency. We had appalling

:29:47.:29:57.
:29:57.:30:02.

social housing policies. I never And I will put it in her.

:30:02.:30:12.
:30:12.:30:21.

grasped it in an incident -- in an I think the moment there is a new

:30:21.:30:27.

Labour government, Tony Blair will be addressing fringe meetings here.

:30:27.:30:36.

Are there any Blairites still around? You still spot 12-year-olds

:30:36.:30:43.

wearing suits. They seem to have a think about people wearing suits.

:30:43.:30:52.

That is not good. I am wearing a suit. I am a Blairite, so I think I

:30:52.:30:57.

had better vote for myself to stay. Is it lonely being a Blairite at

:30:58.:31:05.

the moment? It would never be lonely. There are so many of us.

:31:05.:31:11.

they have secret meetings? I had better not say on camera.

:31:11.:31:16.

Miliband is absolutely right to go back to the 1945 experience. That

:31:16.:31:21.

is what we need to do - get back and attach to our roots - in get

:31:21.:31:29.

the job done. I'm not worried that that does not sound very modern? --

:31:29.:31:39.
:31:39.:31:45.

are you not worried? I do not think They were the people who got rid of

:31:45.:31:49.

Militant for being too left-wing. They are a party within a party and

:31:49.:31:55.

they have to go as well. I might just swap these around. That could

:31:55.:32:01.

be derailed few within the party. have just seen the book by Tony

:32:01.:32:09.

Blair. Is it going well? How many copies have you sold? So far, none.

:32:09.:32:15.

Tony, it looks like your acolytes are welcome - mostly welcome. That

:32:15.:32:18.

was our Adam with the Daily Politics moodbox, and Liam Byrne is

:32:18.:32:23.

still in Manchester for us. I hope you can still hear me. A little bit.

:32:23.:32:29.

I will shout out. We just watched that film. Someone talked about

:32:29.:32:33.

Blairites having to stay in the closet, it is too dangerous for

:32:33.:32:40.

them about in the wide open. Do you agree with that? I do not.

:32:40.:32:46.

Labour Party has always been brought. We draw people from all

:32:46.:32:50.

corners of the country. There are lots of shades of political opinion.

:32:50.:32:56.

We basically agreed on the important things. We agree our

:32:56.:32:58.

country is stronger when the pull together to help picture that out.

:32:58.:33:03.

When you see an injustice, you do not walk past it kite you do

:33:03.:33:09.

something about it. Why does the Unite General Secretary want to

:33:09.:33:14.

kick the New Labour cuckoos out of the nest? I think different people

:33:14.:33:18.

in the party will always have arguments within the party. That is

:33:18.:33:26.

more than an argument. Who is he talking about? I think a couple of

:33:26.:33:30.

people and the trade union movement had been concerned about one

:33:30.:33:35.

organisation which I helped to set up many years ago. We will always

:33:35.:33:41.

have arguments like this within the Labour Party. That is fine.

:33:41.:33:45.

Sometimes they are important in establishing an important principle.

:33:45.:33:50.

Reprint together lots of people with progressive views. Long may

:33:50.:33:54.

the Labour Party continued in that spirit. It does risky new internal

:33:54.:34:01.

war being waged. There were a large number of people being asked,

:34:01.:34:06.

should Blairites go? You admitted Len McCluskey and others are

:34:06.:34:11.

probably talking about you when they say Labour cuckoos are. How

:34:11.:34:16.

does it feel? You will forgive me for saying this argument is

:34:16.:34:21.

slightly fabricated. There is an enormous degree of unity across the

:34:21.:34:26.

labour movement and a great sense of purpose. There is an enormous

:34:26.:34:31.

amount of support for the programme we set out. In many ways, I cannot

:34:31.:34:37.

remember a time when the Labour Party was as united as it is now.

:34:37.:34:42.

There is pride in our record, a unity in the ranks and pride and

:34:42.:34:48.

determination to do what we need to win the next election. Interns of

:34:48.:34:53.

aspirational agenda, do you think Tony Blair would be pledging to

:34:53.:35:01.

increase the top rate of tax? that again. In terms of the

:35:01.:35:06.

Blairite aspiration agenda, would you and Tony Blair be supporting

:35:06.:35:13.

reverting back to the 50% top rate of tax? Look, at the rate of tax,

:35:13.:35:19.

both at the top and every point up to it, has got to reflect the state

:35:19.:35:23.

of the economy - the job that needs doing on the Budget. It needs to

:35:23.:35:29.

reflect what is at the core of the Labour Party, which is a sense of

:35:29.:35:33.

fairness. When there is a job to beat down, as we have ahead, when

:35:33.:35:38.

you have to get the deficit down and bring down national debt,

:35:38.:35:48.
:35:48.:35:48.

Labour has been very clear. In the two get some judicious spending

:35:49.:35:55.

cuts. Which you and Tony Blair back reverting to 50% top rate of tax?

:35:55.:36:01.

Our position on tax is very clear. It was set out very nicely by it Ed

:36:01.:36:07.

Balls yesterday. The state of the perks, I suspect, will be a dog's

:36:07.:36:11.

breakfast. It is difficult for us to take snap decisions about the

:36:11.:36:15.

right tax strategy, as we approach the next general election. That is

:36:15.:36:22.

why Ed Balls was very clear. It will have to wait closer to the

:36:22.:36:27.

time and be part of the zeroed they Spending Review. That is common

:36:27.:36:35.

sense. It is sensible. -- 0 based Spending Review. That is how we

:36:35.:36:40.

have bounce-back. That is why we will win the next election. If you

:36:40.:36:46.

win, do you think anyone will leave you a note? I did not catch that.

:36:46.:36:52.

Do not worry. Maybe that was deliberate. He was very good

:36:52.:36:59.

natured in his inability to hear. What do you want to say? They had,

:36:59.:37:03.

in Tony Blair, the most successful Labour politician ever. They have

:37:03.:37:07.

these questions about whether they're welcome or not. It is

:37:07.:37:11.

accurate to have this question. When you talk to Labour people,

:37:11.:37:15.

they have them back to their factions. There is this argument

:37:15.:37:19.

going on. It is why they are struggling to make headway in the

:37:19.:37:22.

polls. They always talk about themselves. They talk about the

:37:22.:37:27.

Labour movement and not about the nation. They talk about their

:37:27.:37:30.

traditions and fairness, or comprehensives instead of the

:37:30.:37:34.

economy. They're talking about the wrong things. Be a talking about

:37:34.:37:42.

their own backgrounds. -- it they are talking. While it to spend time

:37:42.:37:45.

talking about the background of Phillida when you should be talking

:37:45.:37:51.

about the economy? -- why should you spend time talking about the

:37:51.:37:56.

background of your leader? We are in the fight of our lives. That's

:37:56.:37:58.

what the Shadow Scottish Secretary Margaret Curran told conference

:37:58.:38:01.

this morning and that only Labour could prevent the breakup of the

:38:01.:38:03.

United Kingdom and Scotland becoming independent. Labour are by

:38:03.:38:06.

far the biggest of the unionist parties and are leading the cross-

:38:06.:38:09.

party campaign to defeat the SNP's referendum on the question of

:38:09.:38:14.

independence which is likely to be held in 2014. Here's more of what

:38:14.:38:16.

Margaret Curran and Johann Lamont the leader of the Scottish Labour

:38:16.:38:25.

Party said to conference. We cannot afford to listen to those who said

:38:25.:38:30.

the answers to the Scottish problems is to build a wall around

:38:30.:38:34.

ourselves. The strength to overcome the challenges of our time come

:38:34.:38:40.

from binding together, not breaking apart. That is as true of the

:38:40.:38:46.

challenge we face as an Asian as cities of those we face in our

:38:46.:38:52.

families, our towns and our cities. -- as a nation. That is what

:38:52.:38:57.

separates us from the Tories and the SNP. Whether we are talking

:38:57.:39:01.

about improving skills come at raising living standards or

:39:01.:39:05.

deciding how we govern ourselves, we are led by one simple truth. By

:39:05.:39:09.

the strength of our common endeavour, we achieve more together

:39:09.:39:15.

than we achieve alone. This is not just a slogan that is written on

:39:15.:39:19.

our membership cards. It is a truce that is within our hearts. We

:39:19.:39:24.

believe it, we live by it, and, if we are honoured with the confidence

:39:24.:39:28.

of the Scottish people at the next election, we intend to govern by it.

:39:28.:39:34.

We are in the fight of our lives was up in 2014, Scotland faces a

:39:34.:39:41.

decision about whether or not to break up Britain. A decision would

:39:41.:39:45.

consequences for every Scot and every person across these islands.

:39:45.:39:49.

In the years that followed, we will have to fight again when we faced

:39:49.:39:55.

UK and Scottish general elections. On the one side, two parties a play

:39:55.:40:00.

the politics of division. On the other side, the Labour Party, that

:40:00.:40:04.

sees the strength in all of us to work together and succeed. It is

:40:04.:40:08.

wonderful to be here in Manchester and to remember this is not a

:40:08.:40:15.

foreign country. To people -- the people of this city face the same

:40:15.:40:19.

challenges as the people across the whole of Scotland. It is wonderful

:40:19.:40:23.

to be proud of being part of a Labour and trade union movement

:40:23.:40:28.

which speaks up for people across the whole of the United Kingdom. It

:40:28.:40:32.

speaks to a truce. It speaks to a truce that politics is about what

:40:33.:40:38.

you choose to be and what you choose to aspire to. It is not

:40:38.:40:42.

defined by way you are born but it is defined by what you want to do

:40:42.:40:46.

for the people of this country. The Labour and trade union movement

:40:46.:40:51.

will always speak up for those who need their voices to be heard.

:40:51.:40:54.

Conference, at Scottish Labour is not afraid to be honest with the

:40:54.:41:00.

people of Scotland. Not afraid to expose Alex Salmond and his tartan

:41:00.:41:05.

Tories, he tried to wear Arab clothing, while punishing people

:41:05.:41:13.

they should be protecting. -- our clothing. The SNP might not have

:41:13.:41:19.

the courage to be straight with Scottish people but we do. What

:41:19.:41:23.

Alex Salmond is doing with the Scottish finances is the equivalent

:41:23.:41:28.

of putting the Gas Bill in the draw. We have all done it - not opened a

:41:28.:41:34.

bill because we fear the consequences. We stuff it away and

:41:34.:41:40.

the reminder and but by no notice. We know that never ends well. He

:41:40.:41:44.

hopes we are not ask the tough questions about independence and he

:41:44.:41:48.

is desperate we do not ask the tough questions of the here and now.

:41:48.:41:54.

He knows that every Scottish family is bearing the cost of his slogans.

:41:54.:42:01.

We all know that his budget will go bust. He hopes that somehow he can

:42:01.:42:05.

keep the truth from the Scottish people until after the referendum.

:42:05.:42:09.

I will not wait until after the referendum to be honest with the

:42:09.:42:14.

people of Scotland. We need an honest debate now about how we

:42:15.:42:20.

protect the most abominable from the cats. Not everyone is going to

:42:20.:42:26.

like the solutions. -- the most vulnerable from the cuts. I'll be

:42:26.:42:31.

true to Labour values that we will not allow those who most need our

:42:31.:42:36.

support to pay the price for populist slogans. If we are to

:42:36.:42:39.

assure the elderly get help and support it is our duty to give them,

:42:39.:42:44.

we will have to ensure that those who have give to the have-nots. If

:42:44.:42:48.

we up to make sure the potential of not one of our children is lost,

:42:48.:42:53.

that means those with plenty must share for the common good. If

:42:53.:42:59.

Scotland stands for anything, it is community. We, in Scottish Labour,

:42:59.:43:04.

will put that community together, to stand as one and reject the

:43:04.:43:09.

attempts by Alex Salmond to divide our society. The Labour Party

:43:09.:43:13.

fights for the poor and the bar honourable. The Labour Party fights

:43:13.:43:20.

for the strong and, together, the Labour Party in every part of the

:43:20.:43:25.

United Kingdom to rebuild our nations and rebuild our communities.

:43:25.:43:31.

Thank you, conference. That was Johann Lamont at the party

:43:31.:43:35.

conference. What other numbers at the moment in terms of this

:43:35.:43:41.

referendum on independence? numbers have not really changed.

:43:41.:43:45.

Long-term studies show that support for independence there is between

:43:45.:43:53.

around the quarter and about 35%. - - berries. It has been remarkably

:43:53.:43:57.

static. Nothing has really changed. The campaign has been under way for

:43:58.:44:05.

some time. It is not heading -- edging towards the majority. It all

:44:05.:44:11.

depends on what happens in 2014, the date of the referendum. It

:44:11.:44:18.

depends whether it is one question, two questions, are staged process,

:44:18.:44:23.

whatever it is, we will be sure that it will mean another five

:44:23.:44:29.

years of the yoke of Conservative rule for freedom, sunny uplands,

:44:29.:44:33.

self-determination. So far, the Scottish public do not seem

:44:33.:44:40.

convinced. It will be again the economy, when to it? Johann Lamont

:44:40.:44:46.

will try to set out the fact that Scotland, they feel, will be worse

:44:46.:44:51.

separate from the rest of the United Kingdom and together.

:44:51.:44:56.

will raise great fears. You cannot be be changed candidate - the

:44:56.:45:00.

change message when everything is against you and people are

:45:00.:45:05.

frightened. It is very hard to see any campaign, however brilliant,

:45:05.:45:15.
:45:15.:45:18.

overcoming an almost two to one 90 minutes before Mr Miliband takes

:45:18.:45:23.

the stage for his speech. We are back at 2:00pm on BBC Two for the

:45:23.:45:28.

build-up. As part of that, we are joined by Sadiq Kahn. Welcome to

:45:28.:45:31.

the programme. I hope that you can hear me all right. Are we coming

:45:31.:45:36.

through loud and clear? Loud and clear. We really missed you in

:45:36.:45:42.

Manchester, we were devastated yet that you are not here in person.

:45:42.:45:48.

Let's see if you say that after this interview. Mr Miliband... I

:45:48.:45:52.

can buy in the earpiece, if it gets tough. I think we had that before!

:45:52.:45:55.

Mr Miliband is claiming that because he went to a comprehensive

:45:56.:46:00.

school, he is in touch with ordinary people. Logically, that

:46:00.:46:05.

means that Tony Blair, Harriet Harman, Jack Straw, Ed Balls, Chuka

:46:05.:46:08.

Umunna, Clement Attlee, they were not in touch with ordinary people,

:46:08.:46:15.

the way that Mr Miliband is? Now, look, Ed's link with ordinary

:46:15.:46:19.

people is not because of his education. It is because of what he

:46:19.:46:24.

believes in, what he does now as a person. But the importance of his

:46:24.:46:28.

education is that it defines who he is. It's his life experiences that

:46:28.:46:32.

dictate why he is so passionate about vocational training. He

:46:32.:46:36.

remembers his mates that were not good at doing exams, thrown on the

:46:36.:46:40.

scrapheap. That is what motivates him. It is part of what he is. It's

:46:40.:46:44.

relevant and important to talk about his back story. He is

:46:44.:46:47.

claiming, and he does in his party political broadcast, that because

:46:47.:46:52.

he has been to a comprehensive he has a special connection with

:46:52.:46:56.

ordinary people that these public school kids, including a Labour

:46:56.:47:00.

public school kids, don't. If it doesn't mean that, it doesn't mean

:47:00.:47:06.

anything? Look, I know you have been to an ordinary state school, a

:47:06.:47:10.

local comprehensive, you make mates from all sorts of different

:47:10.:47:13.

backgrounds. You understand challenges that you do of not face.

:47:13.:47:19.

If you come from a stable home, but your mate does not, you get empathy.

:47:19.:47:22.

When you grow up to be a politician, you get to understand more about

:47:22.:47:28.

your constituents, the challenges that families have around the

:47:28.:47:32.

country. I think what it is doing in today's speech is telling the

:47:32.:47:37.

country who he is, where his family came from, his early life, why it

:47:37.:47:41.

is important to who he is today. But it's a bit of an insult to the

:47:41.:47:45.

British people to try to bake out that Mr Miliband is just one of

:47:45.:47:50.

them, an ordinary British person. You and I know he is as much as

:47:50.:47:55.

part of the elite as Mr Cameron, just a different elite. How many

:47:55.:48:00.

kids of his age went home after school to socialist dinner-parties

:48:00.:48:08.

with Tony Benn and Tariq Ali? Did you? One of the criticisms that you

:48:08.:48:11.

and others make is that the country doesn't know enough about Ed

:48:11.:48:16.

Miliband. That is the reason why, Ed is trying to tell the country

:48:16.:48:21.

about himself. But he's not giving us the true picture, he is giving

:48:21.:48:24.

as a distorted picture that he is one of the boys. From his

:48:24.:48:29.

background, his father, his dining companions, he is North London

:48:29.:48:36.

Labour aristocracy. If you go to the sort of school that Ed went to,

:48:36.:48:39.

many of your viewers went to, you have a different life experience to

:48:39.:48:44.

someone at a public school. That is a fact. We're not going to

:48:44.:48:47.

caricature or Ed based on his education. We are going to tell the

:48:47.:48:52.

country about the importance that was to who he is. He understands

:48:52.:48:54.

the challenges that young people face today. He understands that if

:48:54.:48:59.

you don't get a job at 16 or 17, there is a danger you're thrown on

:48:59.:49:02.

the scrapheap. He understands that some people are good at exams, so

:49:02.:49:06.

they go to the best universities, nothing against that, but some

:49:06.:49:11.

people don't. He emphasises with people who do not. That is why he

:49:11.:49:14.

is passionate about changing the way we treat people that don't go

:49:14.:49:19.

to good universities that want to get vocational training. If that is

:49:19.:49:23.

the raison d'etre of the Labour Party, how come, after 30 years of

:49:23.:49:30.

Labour government, at Mr Mellor and's comprehensive, Haverstock,

:49:30.:49:35.

52% failed to get 5 decent GCSEs? Not good enough, and we should be

:49:36.:49:42.

doing better. That is appalling. There were more people doing better

:49:42.:49:47.

up at school in 2010 than 9097. But the progress that should have been

:49:47.:49:51.

made was not made. There were people going to university in 2010

:49:51.:49:54.

that would not in 1997. There were all people doing apprenticeships.

:49:54.:50:01.

But you are right to criticise us for not doing enough. So we need to

:50:01.:50:05.

learn what we did right and what we did not get right as well. That is

:50:05.:50:08.

why we need to make up those things that we did not get right as we

:50:08.:50:13.

should have done. Do you think emphasising that he went to a

:50:13.:50:17.

comprehensive school, do you think that will mean that more than two

:50:17.:50:22.

out of 10, as the polls show at the moment, will regard him as prime

:50:22.:50:29.

ministerial? I think the wartime people spend listening to Ed, the

:50:29.:50:33.

more they understand about him, the more they will think he was prime-

:50:33.:50:38.

ministerial. Did you go home to dinner with Tony Benn and Tariq Ali,

:50:38.:50:42.

as a kid? I think I would have preferred to be in my a playground,

:50:42.:50:47.

and having supper with those guys. Maybe that does make you normal.

:50:47.:50:51.

But it was not the experience of your leader.

:50:51.:50:55.

I am glad you could hear us. That's for joining us. I am glad that you

:50:55.:51:00.

are missing me. Aloft, aloft. Please come back next year. -- a

:51:00.:51:06.

He did sound genuine, even after the interview.

:51:06.:51:10.

Not log until the Labour leader gets to his feet. You can watch it

:51:11.:51:14.

here. In the years since Mr Miliband last addressed the

:51:14.:51:19.

conference we have learned about prey distribution, predators and

:51:19.:51:22.

producers. It is like being in one of his Harvard lectures.

:51:22.:51:32.
:51:32.:51:42.

This time last year, few people thought Ed Miliband was on the road

:51:42.:51:45.

to Downing Street. If you had said the words Prime Minister Ed

:51:45.:51:50.

Miliband, many MPs, including Labour MPs, would have giggled. Few

:51:50.:51:54.

are laughing today. The idea has been taken seriously as a

:51:54.:52:01.

possibility and, by some, as probability. So, what has changed?

:52:01.:52:06.

His predator and producing speech at the conference was an important

:52:06.:52:09.

restatement of social democracy, yet was widely mocked because he

:52:09.:52:13.

failed to adequately explain what he meant. Are you on the side of

:52:13.:52:18.

the wealth creator or the asset strippers? The producers or the

:52:18.:52:22.

predators? Producers trained, invest, invent, sell. Things

:52:22.:52:27.

Britain does brilliantly. But not enough. Predators are just

:52:27.:52:37.
:52:37.:52:43.

interested in the fast buck, taking But, since then, he has motored. He

:52:43.:52:51.

headed the convoy, calling for Sir Fred Goodwin to be reduced to plain

:52:51.:52:56.

old Fred the Shred. He accelerated, by demanding that the State Bank of

:52:56.:52:59.

Stephen Hester must not withdraw a huge bonus. There is no question

:52:59.:53:03.

that Stephen Hester has done a decent job. But you don't just need

:53:03.:53:07.

to do a decent job to get a �1 million bonus when everybody else

:53:07.:53:12.

is having living standards hit. hit top speed by a demanding that

:53:12.:53:15.

Bob Diamond of Barbara Barclays account be closed over the rate

:53:15.:53:20.

fixing scandal. I don't believe the current leadership of Barclays can

:53:21.:53:25.

take it to the current crisis. They have presided over a culture in

:53:25.:53:29.

which this behaviour happened. his biggest breakthrough was from a

:53:29.:53:36.

stroke of political luck. George Osborne's half baked pasty tax

:53:36.:53:40.

budget, a gift for Labour, as well as for millionaires. Let's have

:53:40.:53:44.

some tax transparency. Hands up in the Cabinet if you are going to

:53:44.:53:53.

benefit from the income tax cut. Come on! The undermining of the

:53:53.:53:56.

coalition's we are all in this together justification for

:53:56.:54:01.

austerity was a windfall for Labour. The party did well in May's local

:54:01.:54:04.

elections. They were winning councils even in the south of

:54:04.:54:14.
:54:14.:54:14.

England. Government shambles and big Labour poll Leeds saw a newly

:54:14.:54:17.

confident Ed Miliband confront David Cameron at Prime Ministers

:54:17.:54:21.

questions, bashing the MP over his links to the Murdoch empire. When

:54:22.:54:25.

he refuses to come clean on his and the Chancellor's meetings with

:54:25.:54:27.

Rupert Murdoch, the shadow war sleaze will hang over this

:54:27.:54:32.

government. He also came up that a good line to deflect Tory attacks

:54:32.:54:36.

of Labour's links to the unions during the public service pensions

:54:36.:54:40.

rights. The difference is, unlike him, I'm not going to demonise the

:54:40.:54:48.

dinner lady, the Clean Air, the nurse. -- cleaner. People who earn

:54:48.:54:52.

in a week what the Chancellor pays for his annual skiing holiday.

:54:52.:54:56.

has freshened up his top team, promoting bright new faces such as

:54:56.:55:02.

Chuka Umunna, the shadow Business Secretary, and they shadow Treasury

:55:02.:55:08.

brain Rachel Reeves, both untarnished by the Blair-Brown

:55:08.:55:18.

Yet doubts continue to persist about Miliband. He likes his party

:55:18.:55:24.

in the polls and, two and-a-half years is a long, winding, potholed

:55:24.:55:31.

road in politics. Opponents exploit tensions between Ed Miliband and Ed

:55:31.:55:39.

Balls. The mocking odd Ed jibes no longer sting. His job is not under

:55:39.:55:44.

threat, as it was last year. But what would Labour do in power and

:55:44.:55:48.

who is Ed Miliband? Quite a lot of people seem not to know. I hope

:55:48.:55:53.

that we will get David... I hope that we will get Ed Miliband

:55:53.:55:57.

elected as Prime Minister. This deal is far from sealed. An

:55:57.:56:03.

unsealed deal can be reversed. Stephan Shakespeare, if you look

:56:03.:56:12.

back at the year, we saw their clips of things like Rupert Murdoch,

:56:12.:56:17.

Ed Miliband's response on bank as bonuses, have those things actually

:56:17.:56:22.

helped improve his ratings, or the party ratings? Have they worked?

:56:22.:56:27.

think they have. If you look at the monthly polling, you see his

:56:27.:56:31.

numbers going up. They are still buyer, let's not forget. But

:56:31.:56:35.

they're going up, month-by-month. - - they are still dire. He is doing

:56:35.:56:40.

that, by attacking the Government. That is the money shot, as it were.

:56:40.:56:48.

It is not by biggie himself up, it is attacking the Government. They

:56:48.:56:51.

have seen that and they like that. He wins there, there might be

:56:51.:56:56.

little spikes in his favour. But what Stephan Shakespeare is saying

:56:56.:57:00.

that he needs to do more to say what Labour would do, what he would

:57:00.:57:05.

do and what it would mean. Does that come through? It does. For

:57:05.:57:09.

Labour to do better, it requires two things. Firstly, they have got

:57:09.:57:14.

to be clearer about what they stand for, what they would do and, also,

:57:14.:57:17.

how they have learned the lessons of the past. They don't just appear

:57:17.:57:21.

in a vacuum. Though it has come to this with the baggage of what

:57:21.:57:26.

happened in 2008 and 2010, how Labour left the coffers. The other

:57:26.:57:30.

thing that they can do is explore it those opportunities that the

:57:30.:57:34.

Conservatives have given them. The most significant one of the last 12

:57:34.:57:38.

months has been the budget, which was calamitous. You saw the Tory

:57:38.:57:42.

polls just go down. And they haven't really recovered. George

:57:42.:57:45.

Osborne's ratings have not recovered. They did try to

:57:45.:57:48.

capitalise. But they did not capitalise enough in terms of

:57:48.:57:52.

sustained poll ratings? That is where I disagree with Andrew. I

:57:52.:57:56.

don't think it is about what Labour would do instead. It's two and-a-

:57:56.:57:59.

half years out. They've got a lot of time to build up the policy

:57:59.:58:04.

front. They need to get the bashing of the Conservatives, over and over

:58:04.:58:09.

again. That is what a score. People are feeling frustrated, they are

:58:09.:58:13.

expected, in opposition, to do that. It's quite interesting. Bennett is

:58:13.:58:18.

a case of timing. That is where the debate lies. Should it be more

:58:18.:58:23.

conservative bashing or should it be more about themselves? But you

:58:23.:58:27.

don't have time to answer. Say goodbye! Thanks to both of you. The

:58:28.:58:32.

One o'clock News is starting on BBC One in a moment. Don't forget to

:58:32.:58:36.

switch back because we will be here in an hour on BBC Two to bring you

:58:36.:58:40.

live and uninterrupted coverage of Ed Miliband's conference speech. We

:58:40.:58:43.

are going to get ready for that. It's only an hour. We have taken a

:58:44.:58:47.

leaf out of Ed Balls book. He said he prepared for his speech at the

:58:47.:58:51.

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