01/11/2012 Daily Politics

Afternoon, folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics. Are the ghosts of

Conservative past coming back to want David Cameron? The ayes to the

right, 307. The noes to the left, 294. 53 Conservative MPs rebel on

Europe. Last night they were joined by Labour to inflict a Commons

defeat on the Government. They tell the Prime Minister and EU budget

freeze is not enough, they want a real-terms cut. If the Prime

Minister cannot get that in Brussels, will MPs reject whatever

he does get? Gone With the wind? After a week of confusion, are

onshore wind farms done for? And the political moustache makes a

comeback for Movember. But they All of that is coming up in the

next hour. Who more appropriate to join us on this All Saints Day, a

political saint of his own making, the former mayor of London. But so

would not melt in his mouth. Welcome back to the show. Let's

start with what turned into an All Hallows' Eve fright night for the

Prime Minister. Scary! He was defeated by an unholy alliance of

53 of his own MPs and the Labour Party. Together, they voted for a

real-terms reduction in the EU budget, rather than the real-terms

freeze that the Prime Minister is after. It is a cash increase, but

for inflation. That is what the Prime Minister wants. With

impeccable timing, debit Prime Minister Nick Clegg has been making

a speech on Europe this morning. Ever helpful, he's attacked

Conservative rebels but, also, the Labour leadership. Their change of

heart is dishonest. It is hypocritical. Worst of all,

Labour's plan could cost the taxpayer more, not less. In pushing

a completely unrealistic position on the EU budget, one that is miles

away from any other country's position, Labour will have

absolutely no hope of getting a budget deal agreed, driving the EU

budget built up instead, over which It may have been opportunistic, it

may have even been hypocritical. But it is pretty good politics by

Labour? I think the world has changed. A whole generation of MPs

like myself, who grew up influenced by the war, saw Europe as a real

issue, the world has moved on. Nobody in France or Italy expects

to be invaded by Germany or even Russia. Now people are focusing on

what it costs. The EU budget makes the Ministry of Defence budget look

responsible and well managed. cannot be that bad! All of those

agricultural subsidies, that do not go to small farmers. It's mostly

big business and half of them are American. The Cypriots are in the

chair at the moment. They have a �5 billion cut proposed in common

agricultural subsidies. 5 billion, in a one trillion budget. The

French have thrown their toys out of the pram. It is not French

farmers getting this, which is what is stupid. I think France does not

publish the details of who gets what. That is because they are

ashamed. We have all had those horrific tales, again and again, of

terrible waste. When everything else is being cut, if we are all

honest, we know that it's not going to be easy for any time and the

rest of this decade. So why should the European budget be exempt from

real scrutiny? It is what the British people think? I suspect it

is what everybody in Europe thinks, but nobody gets a chance to put it

out there. We are going to come back to this, but why do you think

these things don't play as much in Germany or France, or even Italy?

don't know. You have always had this strong Euro-sceptic block of

opinion here. That has kept fuelling it. That really wasn't

there in Europe after the war. Because they had all been invaded...

For the reasons he gave? It's time they got their act together. The

scrutiny you get in German politics is very good. But nobody is

scrutinising his nightmare. I always thought once you got a

European Parliament, what do you need to commission for? You have

elected MPs, let them run the budget and be accountable. This

morning, Chancellor George Osborne said that the real test in the EU

budget is still to come. That's if the Prime Minister comes back from

Brussels after negotiations, with something less than a real-terms

reduction in the EU budget. Will the Conservative rebels join again

with Labour to reject it? They were in no mood to compensate last night.

This Prime Minister has been clear that the remorseless rise in

spending in the EU has to stop and it will stop. If there is no cut or

no real freeze, there is no deal. The framework will be deterred.

goal today is to stand up for the taxpayer. I know this is not

something that is only the preserve of these ventures. I know there are

some members opposite who also want to rise above some of the partisan

discussions today and make sure that we have a decision from the

debates that we have this evening. A decision that does the best thing

for the taxpayer. What an array to choose from! I'll give way to the

honourable gentleman. Would not be Honourable Gentleman agree that the

proposal put forward by the Government in the face of

extraordinary, irrational provocation from the commission is

extremely sensible and deserves the support of the whole house? I had

police officers who came to my surgery. They understand that their

pay is frozen. They are less happy about changes to terms and

conditions, less happy about not getting their increments. What they

do not understand is why other elements of the Budget, in

particular the European Union, should be guaranteed inflationary

increases, letter don't inflationary increases or of the

way through to 2020. -- let alone inflationary increases all of the

way through to 2020. I'm grateful to the Honourable Member, who I

have the utmost respect for. Does he have the utmost respect for

members opposite who voted time and time again to give away powers and

money to the European Union, and now propose to wrap themselves in

the Euro-sceptic flag and walk through the lobbies this afternoon?

I think this multi- national framework, or EU budget, is insane.

To ask for the European Union to ask for a 10% real increase above

inflation is insulting to our constituents. In it is insulting to

the people of Spain and Italy and Portugal, and Ireland, who are

being told to pull in their belts. The if the Prime Minister achieves

a freeze in the European Union budget, he will have done something

that no other Prime Minister has managed to achieve. No, I am not

going to give way. All that is happening on these benches is

whenever the Prime Minister says he is going to achieve something,

there are those that are somewhat self-indulgent and are seeking to

set an even higher hurdle for him to jump over. It is unreasonable

and unfair. If this party hopes to be in government after the next

General Election, it has got to get a grip and start supporting the

Prime Minister. It is no good in the European elections in 2014

wrapping ourselves in the Union flag if tonight we take it off and

wrap ourselves in the stars of the European Union flag. This is a

moment of truth, this is a moment of decision. We can send a united

message, as a parliament, as a nation, to Brussels. Let's make a

difference. If we are not making a difference, we might as well go

home. At that point, he went home. No, good clips from a lively

Commons debate. We like it when that happens on the Daily Politics.

Let's continue. We are joined by Bernard Jenkin, one of the

Conservative rebels, Nadhim Zahawi, who voted with the Government, and

Lib Dem MP Martin Horwood. I think we know how he voted as well. You

voted for the rebels. We know, by looking across the Channel, that

the best the Prime Minister is going to get is a freeze in real

terms on the existing budget. Nobody else is talking about a huge

cut. Why lumber him with this vote? First of all, it is advisory.

understand that, not binding. Prime Minister could have easily

have said, yes, I accept this amendment, I will do my best, but I

am pretty powerless. That is the reality. The people saying it is

frightfully irresponsible, we must not pretend we are powerless, we

have become powerless. What this vote was about was a message from

the British people. We don't care what your problems are. We are not

happy with this relationship. That message is now getting through to

Parliament. It was about a lot more than the Budget in your view?

some of the, this is a seismic moment in British politics. There

are only 53 of you, it is not seismic. Even the Labour vote, it

is basically a pro-Europe party, they now realise they haven't got a

chance of being elected unless they at least pretend to be Euro-sceptic.

I think it would be madness to leave, because so much of our trade

is tied up in it. But there is no reason why we cannot say there is a

lot wrong here and a lot of waste. I used to be in the House of

Commons, the fact I was there didn't been I stopped complaining

about their waist of your government and the way you

squandered so much money. -- the wastage in your government. Do you

think that Labour will have to become... I understand they were

not say that we should leave, but will they become more Europe

sceptic? When the Tories first applied to join the Common Market,

they said it was the end of thousands of years of British

history. I don't think either of their main parties are four or or

against, solidly. The Lib Dems are united. Labour had a real problem.

Margaret Hodge and said she hated his vote, it was political

opportunism. Bernard, you did not play him on your clip, a brilliant

speech. The. Margaret he was making, there are these vibrations, I call

them tremors. People do feel that we ought to try and make sure that

we try our hardest to cut the budget. That is what they are going

to try and do. When Bernard says we are helpless, I disagree. The

European Commission would not be panicking and putting a press

releases as to what the consequences would be if we had a

freeze in the budget in real terms, if we were helpless. Do you buy the

line of the rebels that bypassing this motion it is helpful to the

Prime Minister, it stiffens his resolve? He now cannot come back

from Brussels with anything less than a freeze? Do you buy that?

voted the other way. To try to push back the reins this relentless

increase in budgets, you have to build alliances. We had a alliance

with Germany, France, the Netherlands and Finland. The big

countries are on our side. 17 countries are net beneficiaries.

They will not be voting to cut the budget. When you build that

Alliance and promise that what you really want is a real-terms freeze,

there is no point going back and saying, you know what, I change my

mind, I wanted it more now. Who is on the side of a freeze? Germany,

France and a Nicolas Sarkozy, I hope Hollande will deliver on that.

The Netherlands, Finland, they have signed up. In negotiating, you have

to be consistent. That is why I was supporting the Government. But the

Prime Minister needs to listen to Parliament, which he will do.

Parliament has spoken last night. It delivered a very clear message.

The Lib Dem position, are they clearly in favour of aims real-

terms freeze? By yes, at least. What we have negotiated his a

position that could potentially be a cut if we can negotiate that. But

it's an unrealistic barter set the Government. Mission impossible?

have the Conservative Party chronically disunited over Europe.

This vote last night has probably underlined our negotiating position.

If you nail your mass to a completely unrealistic objective of

demanding a cut, when you haven't built the alliances that the deans

are how we was talking about, you will not be taken seriously. --

that Nadhim Zahawi was talking about. At least Bernard and his

Euro-sceptic friends have been consistent. The hypocrisy of the

Labour Party last night was unbelievable. It observed about a

dozen successive increases in the EU budget when they were in power.

You supported them all? This was a Europe-wide budget that was

negotiated. A promise to renegotiate the common agricultural

policy that was never delivered! There was more money available.

That is gone forever. When we are cutting benefits for ordinary

people, seeing people really struggling, you have to say to

everybody, don't just squeeze the British budget, we should be

squeezing the European budget as well. I think that is consensus.

When the Prime Minister goes to Brussels, I don't think anything is

going to happen this side of Christmas because they can't get an

agreement. There comes a time when the British Prime Minister, he

looks and says, I can't we get this real-terms freeze. They have picked

it up more. Do the Lib Dems then support him using the veto? We will

support the Prime Minister getting the best deal possible for Britain

out of these negotiations. Last night has damaged that. What is the

answer to my question? Will you support in using the veto if he

cannot deliver your policy, which is a real-terms freeze? I think

it's helpful in negotiations for the other partners in the

negotiations to think we might use the veto. I don't think that's

particularly unhelpful. If the Prime Minister does, can he count

on the support of the Lib Dems? think the Prime Minister can count

on our support for negotiating the best possible deal. That's the kind

of thing you don't actually reveal in advance. You are not going to

come on and say you will support in getting the worst possible deal!

is the Ed Balls school of diplomacy, setting out your red lines before

$:/STARTFEED. Cameron will go into the meeting saying, I have got all

these nutters on my back. When you look at the polls, only one in 20

people regard the European Union as a vital issue. That is from 20th

October 12. Only 5% mentioned the EU as an important issue facing

Britain today. What do they think about tax, standards of living,

benefits for disabled people? Public spending and borrowing? This

is an issue that overlaps with all of those things. And what about

bringing paedophiles and terrorists back to this country to face

justice? We have got all sorts of agreements. You are allowing Euro-

scepticism to weaken Britain's stance. I want to be on a BBC

programme that does not mention the word paedophile. Is your party not

in danger of going back to a civil war over Europe. You are all Euro-

sceptics. You have got degrees of Euro-scepticism. Do you want TV

you? No, I do not. Do you? No he does not. You had very sound people

voting last night. They are sound people are in Europe. Dominic voted

with the Government. The party is not split, the party wants to

support the Prime Minister in cutting the European budget. There

are different factions of Euro- sceptics. The Conservative Party

needs to get its act together. is not like Maastricht when there

was a real split. He is too young to have lived through that.

showed a speech that was a bit more like the Maastricht debate. The

Conservative Party is far more united about the European Union.

This was about... Do you want a referendum that says in or out?

would like a mandate referendum. Do the British people agree the

British Government should negotiate a new deal about trade? Nick Clegg

this morning, he said, he described the Prime Minister's plans to

repatriate powers, which is the long-term aim of the Conservatives

as a, quote, false promises wrapped in the Union Jack. Is it that no

major powers should be in a packed? I do not think it is an unwise

thing to do. So will it is not a false promise? There are some

powers you can repatriate through agreement and negotiation.

Fisheries is an example. The promise that you can repatriate

whole sell large chunks of our relationship with Europe is

unrealistic. We are still all on the European train. We are not

going to be in the front driving, because we do not want to be in the

European federation. But all the rules that exist on the single

market are going to be dominated by the group at the front. Take

banking union, they will decide what regulations they want. It will

not take long for the commission to decide, let's make it a rule for

everybody, and we will be out voted. If they are going to be a

federation and have fiscal and banking union, we need a completely

different kind of relationship. Otherwise we will be ruled by

federal Europe and have no control. We have become so semi-detached

from the rest of Europe that we are in the west of possible worlds and

we lose influence. Like Norway and Switzerland you have to comply with

dozens of rules. I do not agree with that. A but they do not have

any influence over it. Europe and the euro-zone is going to change.

Every expert says they have to change because of the problems they

have. Once that happens if there is an opportunity for us to have a

different settlement. The British public will then and should have

the right to buy their back or not bat that new relationship.

Repatriation is a longer term aim, you probably have more of that in

your manifesto. If the Prime Minister comes back from Brussels

with a real-terms freeze, not with a cut, but with a real-terms freeze

from 2014-2020, you will be happy with that? If he came back and said,

we have got the real terms freeze which is better than what we might

have got, but we know we are stuffed because these arrangements

are completely unfair. The EU now has the right to grab more of our

money every yet whether we like it or not. What he will also have to

say is that this has to change. In the long term this has to change.

By you are not going to vote against a real-terms freeze?

think he will be leaving the public behind them. I will ask again for

the purposes of clarification, if he comes back with a real-terms

freeze, you will not vote against it? I do not know, I will wait and

see. I certainly will not. Labour are all over the place. Douglas

Alexander was saying he does not know what he is going to do. He is

waiting to see what the deal is. said he would not know whether to

vote for a real-terms freeze. will be an impressive piece of

negotiation given last night. If we triumph over that, that would be

good. There will be no veto and no deal. Then the budget rises every

year by inflation. Then they will put it off by December. Getting a

real freeze is a great result. he does not get a deal, he gets

what he wants, a real-terms freeze. Annual budgets may put the prices

up for British consumers. That is the nonsense. They really need to

have a massive change, the more you listen to this. They've voted for

an even bigger budgets. The Labour MEPs voted for a huge increase.

are on dodgy ground. The Socialists in the European Parliament voted

for an increase. We are governed by someone we do not elect. There is a

parliament, get rid of the commission. Bureaucracy is

determining how we run our things. Eruption in British politics. What

is the Government's policy on wind power? I ask that quite a lot. The

new energy minister of state, a Conservative MP, John Hayes

declared Britain had, quote, enough onshore wind farms and suggested

future projects would be blocked. But he was promptly slapped down by

his boss, Energy Secretary Ed Davey. He is a Lib Dem and he says the

policy on wind farms has not changed. Confused? Me as well. They

have been in the Commons this morning answering questions from E

-- MPs seeking clarity. I asked him why he was failing to stand up to

his colleagues who want to kill off the industry. I have to disappoint

the Right Honourable Lady because my Conservative colleagues and I

are working very closely on this matter. That was what the former

energy minister. After the outburst yesterday, how closely would he say

they were working together now? honourable friend suggested I used

the words intimately, but I can say we are working very closely. Listen,

Mr Speaker, I will face the house as you requested. He and I may

occasionally disagree on issues of substance, but I have to say I

really admire his style. So, any clearer? Not meet either. Joining

me now is Caroline Lucas and James Delingpole, the climate change

sceptic and writer, who was standing as an anti- wind farm

candidate in the Corby by-election, but you have pulled out on the

basis you have one. Absolutely, it was the shortest and most

successful election campaign of all times. I achieved my aims. I was

not in it for a tawdry place in Parliament, I wanted to rescue the

British countryside from the wind menace. There are 2600 wind

turbines already completed and running onshore and another 3000

waiting for approval. I cannot do anything about the ones already in

place, but I hope Semtex in a few years will sort out that problem.

In the meantime I have achieved... Union terrorists? I have the

expertise to destroy these things. In your own native land, Scotland

is being ruined, the land of your forefathers is being destroyed by

wind farms. I am not arguing the rights and wrongs of wind farms, I

am trying to work out how you can claim you have won it there are

another 3000 in the pipeline. is a remarkable turnaround in

Government policy. It is confusing depending on who you listen to and

is another example of the coalition being all over the place. Is there

now going to be a drag on onshore wind, or will there be a very few

more turbines going up? You are right, there is complete chaos in

the coalition. That gives a signal to investors that Britain is not

serious about investing in the economy. My worry is that the

Semtex is going to be aimed at cheaper fuel bills, jobs and a boom

in the economy. He is coming out with frankly unscientific so --

statements. It is very entertaining, but not helpful. I am surprised you

are defending wind farms. You could not get anything antique green than

a wind turbine. They kill birds, they are inefficient, the increase

Sirte 2. They are so unreliable and intermittent, wind up being wind,

they require 100% backed up by fossil fuel power on spinning

reserve. What you get his two forms of electricity being generated.

That is a perfect case in point of what I am saying. It is very

entertaining, but it lacks in any factual grounding. You do not need

100% back up. Och energy generation needs some back-up. Third, if you

have connection with the rest of Europe, you can make the most of

when it is windy in other parts of Europe. That is a huge investments.

It is less than a massive new fleet of nuclear power stations. Do you

not care about...? Britain more than almost anywhere else is one of

the best sites for wind farms because of the nature of our

climate. I personally like them, they are attractive, it is cheaper

to put them on land that in the seat. The simple fact is we are

they get on top of our carbon emissions and bring them down, or

we may not have a human civilisation by the end of this

century. We have just seen this devastation in North America in an

election campaign when neither candidate has met and climate

change. Is it the result of climate change? About once or twice a

decade there would be a catastrophic event, but now they

are coming more often. We are heading for three or four. This is

junk science from a few selected sites on the internet. It is

dreadful. There is no serious scientists I am aware of who is a

sceptic. The key thing is not how much science I know or how much you

know, it is about the majority of scientific opinion. When you have

got hundreds of scientists and if I put it to them what they like to

listen to you, or were they like to By my arithmetic, there are about

4000 turbines, currently turning in the UK and its waters. This morning,

how much electricity were they generating as a percentage of the

total amount. Accounted a maths well enough, but I can tell you

that a modern turbine will produce enough electricity for 1000 homes.

As a percentage? I reckon it is probably less than 5%. Less than 5%.

But we are just beginning. Let me give the answer. It is 3%. For all

of that damage. If 4000 turbines produce only 3% of our electricity

this morning, then we have a target of over 30% of electricity by 2020,

which is only eight years away. You are going to need a hell of a lot

of turbines? Nobody is suggesting we are doing it all by wind

turbines. We are using a range of renewable technologies and energy

efficiency. That is the Cinderella of the debate. According to the

Government's own figures, we could save 40%. Energy efficiency does

not change the percentages of where the energy is coming from. On the

plan, most of them getting renewables up to a third of the

total electricity, most of that comes from wind power. The biggest

way of coping with this is insulated your home probably.

Immediately, our electricity bill was down. Yeah, that will work!

Economies that are far more successful are rely on wind energy

more than we are. The last time, you admitted to being a watermelon,

you said, I'm proud to be a watermelon. He's plugging his book

now. In a sentence, what is government policy on onshore wind?

I think they had a massive U-turn and Ed Davey does not want to admit

it. It is completely chaotic, I hope very much that James is a

trike. If he is, it's very bad for the British economy and fuel bills.

Now, it was Enoch Powell that said all political careers end in

failure. I guess that included his own. What happens to the politician

who finds himself or herself out of power? How do they cope when the

interview requests dry up from the daily politics, they are sat

watching a box-set of the David Porter exact home and ministers are

not return your calls? In a moment will talk to Ken Livingstone. First,

we have been finding out if there There is nothing as ex-as an ex-MP,

as the saying goes. One minute you are a star turn at the Palace of

Westminster. The next, you're not. So, what do MPs do when they leave

the Commons and become common? If they are very lucky, they get to do

the thing they really love. Keen fisherman Martin Salter stood down

as an MP for Reading West in 2010 and became co-ordinator of the

Angling Trust. How does this compare to Westminster? You must

miss it? I miss the people, I had some really good friends there and

still do. I don't work 90 hours a week, I'm not public property and I

know the work he on causes I care about four people I like. It's a

great privilege to be able to speak up for a sport that has given me a

huge amount of pleasure. I thoroughly enjoy what I'm doing.

Martin is not alone in carving out a rather enjoyable niche for

himself after leaving the Commons. There is Anne Widdecombe, start of

Strictly. Former form secretary John Reid became make football club

chairman. The Lembit Opik continued to perform as a stand-up comedian.

Only kidding! A lot of former MPs going to lobbying or return to

previous MPs, but many find the transition from Member of

Parliament to the member of the public traumatic. It was

devastating, it really was. I was working long, long hours. I hope I

was doing a good job. The number of people that voted for me again, I

know I was. Sadly, there is a gap in your life way you wanted to do

things for people but that had gone. The study of ex-MPs in 2007

reported instances of nervous breakdowns, divorce and serious

debt. In 2010, a record number of parliamentarians, 148, left the

Commons. So, how easy is it to find another job? To be honest, unless

you are going into a job as an ex Cabinet minister or something like

that, if I went back into Project Management and Bass said, what did

you do? If I said I was an MP, they would say, so what? What project

did you last manage? There is not a big queue of people wanting to

employ ex-MPs. Here are a few tips on how to bring your career to a

happy end. Use the skills and abilities you have got, but

remember you are an ex-MP. Don't try to pretend you are an MP in

waiting. It's a different chapter of your life. Just deal with it.

you are in the autumn of your political career, remember that

there was life after Westminster. What you make of it is up to you.

A special welcome to viewers in Scotland who have joined as well

that was going on. There have been watching First Minister's questions

from Holyrood. We are discussing what happens after a career in

politics. What a masterpiece of planning that we had you on to

discuss this subject. The high points of your career in terms of

the positions are leader of the Greater London Council, MP for

Brent East and then mayor of London for two terms. What was the

toughest one to leave? Oh, I think when the GLC was abolished, I

assumed that something like that would be back fairly soon. I was on

my way to Parliament. I assumed at some point we would have a

socialist government. Of course, we ended up with Tony Blair! This time

round, when I lost to Boris four years ago, I immediately threw

myself into... I mean, there were so many cities around the world

that wanted me to visit, which I could not do while I was mayor. I

spent too much careers running against Boris Johnson. It's only

really after the defeat this time that it was like real retirement.

The phone stopped ringing, there were not endless meetings. Does

that really happen? Literally, I was being managed 24-seven, running

around all over the place. I was losing so much weight, pounding the

streets. Very good for your health. And suddenly it came to a stop. I

have a friend that is not very well, hadn't gone into his garden for

years. I spend all of this summer gardening, cutting down trees,

weeding... He found that therapeutic? I love it. Every day I

could see two Square feet of soil I had reclaimed. Unlike politics, I

spent the early part of 2000, 10 years ago, and lobbying to get

Crossrail open in 2018. Gardening, you see an immediate result.

general, politicians, particularly those that have had a long career

and have done things, I don't mean an MP that has been there for a

couple of years and then are gone again, politicians that have real

careers men, is it difficult in general for them to adapt once it

is over? It might be for a new generation coming up. I'm part of

the post-war generation. In act videos they were saying, get off

your backside and do something else. My partner is a generation younger

than me. My partner says, where is your emotion? Sitting around

whining about it isn't going to make any difference. Other than the

gardening, that you enjoyed, that is clear... I've got my own garden

to do, I'm doing about three gardens. It will come to an end. I

am also on the Labour NEC, I do a lot of fund-raising dinners for the

Labour Party. I go around in by- elections and all of that. I'm not

really retired, and does not holding an office. What do you do

to pay the rent? I have got my MP's salary and my mayors' pension. They

pay �20,000 a year. Then there is radio and TV work, after-dinner

speeches. �50,000 a year, I am really tough to the off. People are

struggling a lot more than made. spoke to one Labour MP that is

standing down and had been a government minister, a well-

regarded career. He said that he was going to get away from

Westminster altogether. He was actually thinking of starting a

business. That was something he had never done before. He had run

departments, but starting a business he thought would be a

fresh career. Once the gardens are all done, I might build you a

wildlife garden firm? I would quite enjoy that. The only problem is

that I cannot drive, I would have to be taking everything around on

the Tube. I need you to get enough to hire a sofa.

Get your beer goggles on. We are going to talk about ale. It's a bit

early to start, well, not at the Daily Politics. But it's not too

early for MPs to debate the price of beer. They want to put a halt to

something called the beer duty escalator. Thanks. It increases the

tax on this stuff every year. The beer and pub Federation have worked

out that the average Briton spends... I cannot see where it is.

Look at that, �177 the year on beer tax. Compare that to Denmark. This

one? I can tell by the name. �64. Spanish... Can you get Spanish

beer? I didn't know that. �15 the year. That's quite a big difference.

15 for the Spanish, 67 and 177 for us. The price of beer is something

that MPs have noticed as well, and online petitioner has attracted

100,000 signatures. Andrew Griffiths has represented

petitioners in the House of Commons this morning. Here he is, in that

Daily Politics pub. Is it a good thing that the Government has tried

to discourage people from drinking? We all want responsible drinking,

that is absolutely right. The taxation system we have at the

moment is encouraging people to drink spirits, to drink wine and,

actually, beer, a great British product, is suffering as a result.

Since the beer duty escalator was introduced, we have seen beer sales

drop by 16%. We have seen five Crest Close for why his beer are

suffering more? As I understand, or of alcohol is subject to this

escalator? Under a Scottish Chancellor, we had 10 years of a

freeze on Scottish whisky. Because beer is drunk in pubs more so, this

is impacting on community pubs to a large extent. It is forcing growers

to struggle. It is forcing pubs to close. -- growers. Do you have any

evidence... We know pubs are closing, but what is the evidence

that this duty escalator, pushing it up more than the price of

inflation, is contributing? Most pubs, they get 50% of their profits

from beer. Not only is it damaging pubs and brewers, it is not raising

any money. The Treasury forecast shows that in the next four years

it will raise no money because sales are dropping as a result. We

are shooting ourselves in the foot. If they scrap the beer duty

escalator, we would see real growth in the sector. It seems you have a

mountain to climb at a time when the Chancellor is desperate for

money. He's got to cut public spending, he has been putting up

taxes as well. Getting a cut in the beer tax, it seems that it's not

going to be that easy? Look at duty on cider. Should you going to lay

pub and have a pint of bitter or a pint of cider, there is 50 pence

difference in the duty that you pay on a pint of beer. So, every time

somebody chooses cider instead of beer, the Treasury is losing 50p.

Also, the cider makers have 50 pence tax breaks to spend on

promoting their products and marketing and advertising. When you

put your points to the Prime their stand the Chancellor about this,

what did they say to you as they sip their champagne? I think we all

know. David Cameron loves a pint of bitter. He has been photographed on

many occasions drinking fine Burton Ale. That doesn't mean he likes it,

it means he knows that the cameras are there! He is an beer mother. We

have reached a turning point. The thing about a beer escalator is

that when you get to the top you stop and get off. We have reached

the point where the escalator is not raising any money for the

Treasury. It's actually costing jobs and costing sales. Stick with

us. Don't go away. Ken Livingstone's reaction. Everybody

that wants to cut a tax on something always tells me, whatever

it is, it's not raising money $:/STARTFEED. And one pub in London

in every 10 closes every year. Most people put their life savings into

renting a chub -- pub from a giant corporation and then they are

forced to buy their alcohol from them about two or three times the

price they can get from the supermarket. P but are drinking at

home because it is cheaper. Thatcher, give her her due, she got

rid of the tied cottage, but it has crept back and it forces the public

to buy from giant corporations. British beer a pub Federation works

hand-in-hand with the giant corporations? Yes, that is right

and the industry has had some problems and some self regulation

has been brought in. One of the big problems is the supermarkets. They

use alcohol as a loss-leader and have driven the prices down and as

a result we see more people drinking at home unsupervised.

ary briefly because we have run out of time, on a scale of 1 to 10, 10

being good for you, what is the chance of you getting this at the

next Budget? I am optimistic. I would say nine, Andrew, I'm a

born optimist. That is certainly optimistic. Have one on me. I have

eight tab behind the bar. When the contract to run the West Coast main

line was handed to FirstGroup, there were cries of foul play from

Virgin Trains. Richard Branson claimed the Department for

Transport had got their calculations wrong. The protest was

dismissed as sour grapes. Then last month the Transport Minister had to

admit there were serious flaws in the franchise process. Yesterday he

faced MPs on the transport committee. The mistakes which were

made on the InterCity West Coast franchise should not have been made

and they were serious for the Department. We have apologised to

the bidders involved and the taxpayers who have a right to

expect better. Would the interim report, which can only be described

as a damning indictment of the Department, and the report found

the department knew the process was flawed and lacked transparency,

that it changed the rules at the last minute without telling the

bidders and acted unfairly and was aware it was open to legal

challenge. In view of all of that, do you wish you could have asked

more questions in the department before you came to the conclusion

that you're content with the way things had been done? Guided ask

questions and I was assured when I came here in the little time I had,

it was shortly after my appointment, within a week that I was here, but

I was not in the Department for the whole week, but I was a steward the

award of the franchise was safe, it was technically said. Do I regret

not asking more questions? I think I would have been sure that

although there were some small issues that had come to light, I

was assured that would have had no change on the overall awarding of

the franchise. That was the new Transport Secretary before the

Transport Select Committee in the Commons. Is it time to

renationalise the trains? Ken Livingstone has long argued they

should be taken back under state control. We are joined by Richard

Wellings, from the Institute of Economic Affairs, he thinks they

should stay in private hands. Summarise the case for state

ownership. You go back to Adam Smith. If you have a monopoly,

people will still permute. The only time was when British Airways was

privatise, they were not ripped off because they had competition will

start we have got the highest energy prices in Europe. If you

give somebody a monopoly or a cartel, they will rip us off.

disagree. There have been several successes on the railway. A big

increase in passenger numbers and freight, investment in the

infrastructure, but the process is we did not have proper

privatisation. Civil servants decide to run the trains. Somebody

has to decide to the franchise goes too. That is not a genuine

privatise stretch. If you look at vertical integration, the same

company owned the trains and the track and that would have been more

wet sufficient. We can see the difference. In London the Mayor

controls the bus companies and regulates them and they have to run

as the Mayor directs. Outside London it is a free for all.

Anybody going on a bus in London, and anyone getting on outside

London, they will all say in London they are brilliant and outside it

is ghastly. It is a regulated market? The Mayor tells them how

often they will run the service. Basically it could be run by the

Meyer. One of the arguments was British Rail was taking up too much

in subsidy. When I look at the figures, now we have privatise it

is a lot more. Over �5 billion worth of subsidies going into the

railways. It is a massive problem, it has tripled since privatisation.

That is a lot of money. It is disgraceful. In it is not

privatisation. The railway companies are sub-contractors for

the state. We should try it proper privatisation. What does that mean?

We get away from all the layers of bureaucracy, as we see with the

Civil Service taking a role and it would bring costs down. Who would

decide to run a train from London to Manchester. The company would

buy both the tracks and run the trains and it would be after them.

There is no railway in the world that makes a profit, everyone has

to be subsidised. That is not the case. In the 19th century the

railways were built by the private sector. It is a changed world.

there is more competition so the monopoly threat is reduced.

watched this when I was Mayor. I brought in a lot of Americans who

ran big things and they negotiated quite prettily with the contractors.

Part of the problem is it is now the Civil Service. Something like

the Richard Branson fiasco comes up, they might negotiate a contract

every few years. But you need people who do this every year.

Civil servants do not have those skills to negotiate with giant

corporations. On his side up the argument, passenger numbers are up.

I do not know if the camera can get this. This graph is quite

remarkable. Suddenly after privatisation it goes up. Under

British Rail the number of passengers had been in gentle

decline. Passenger numbers are up, apparently from the surveys

passenger satisfaction is high, and we have one of the safest railways

in Europe. Public transport is taking off again because travelling

on the motorway is a nightmare, people are more mobile than they

used to be a. In London we have had the same thing, a 50% increase in

bus and Tube usage. People are turning to public transport. You

would have to be out of your mind to drive a car. I will give you the

final word. We need to build on this and think about the

fundamental stretch of the rail industry and can we get a subsidy

is down to a reasonable level? you very much for becoming part of

our debate will stop facial hair, there is not enough of it about

these days, as Ken will agree. Turn the clock back 30 years and any man

worth his salt would be sprouting some fine plumage on his upper lip.

But now we have got something called Movember. Once a year for a

one-month men across the world it to express themselves and strut

their stuff by growing a fine pair of handlebars. It is for a good

cause and we will be speaking to a number of MPs who are up to the

challenge. First, here are some time -- parliamentarians who used

to be brave enough to sport a fine moustache, and also some

suggestions for others who can be # 100 hairs make a man! #. It looks

like something from the Wild West. All the coalition members had

droopy ones! I am joined by the two MPs who are going to have a go. Why

are you going to do this? I am going to try and grow a moustache.

In the Somerset when I was on holiday I did not shave for a week

and I did not see the defence. But it is a very good cause raising

awareness about prostate cancer and I am willing to make an idiot of

myself. You have only got one month. It is the month of November you get

to do this. That is right and I feel like my attempt is a bit like

their UK economy, a lack of growth. But 10,000 men a year die of

prostate cancer. If we can make a difference, both in fund raising

and awareness, that will be a good thing, because it is a tableau

subject. A lot of men do not like to talk about it or go and get

check-ups and so on. Are you raising money? Our people

sponsoring you? Yes, I will be setting up a website page and I

hope people will sponsor me. Also Royal Mail have pledged for every

pound we raised, they will match that will stop her abuse started

yet because I cannot see anything? Yes, I had started. You famously

had one once, but I am told you would never bring it back. My wife

said she would have never taken up with me if I still had a moustache.

But it was the end of the Sixties and I thought I would have more

success with bells if I had a moustache. And did you? I do not

think so. I tried a beard, but my beard looked like a battered toilet

brush. They do not take off. These things come and go with fashion,

there were a lot of MPs with moustaches when I came in. Will you

keep it? I would doubt so, but I know some people who are cutting

their privet hedges into moustaches. One to about you? It in a month I

have managed to grow a fantastic moustache, which I doubt, I will

reconsider it. You have both managed expectations well, we are

not expecting much. Comeback in a month's time and tell us how it is

going. A special thanks to Ken