Browse content similar to 26/11/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Good afternoon, welcome to the Daily Politics. Much of England is | :00:43. | :00:47. | |
under water, vast areas of the south-west and north-east are knee- | :00:47. | :00:51. | |
deep in floods, and there are alerts in Scotland and Wales. | :00:51. | :00:55. | |
Should we worry when we hear that talks between the government and | :00:55. | :00:57. | |
insurers are on the brink of collapse? | :00:57. | :01:01. | |
Nigel Farage will be talking about the decision in Rotherham to remove | :01:01. | :01:05. | |
three children from a foster family because the parents were members of | :01:05. | :01:10. | |
UKIP - he is not pleased, to put it mildly. | :01:10. | :01:14. | |
And after the highs of the Olympics, are attempts to get us all doing | :01:14. | :01:20. | |
more sport coming a cropper because of a lack of local facilities? | :01:20. | :01:24. | |
All that in the next hour. With us today is the legendary athlete and | :01:24. | :01:28. | |
member of the House of Lords Tanni Grey-Thompson, welcome. If you have | :01:28. | :01:31. | |
any thoughts or comments on anything we are discussing you can | :01:31. | :01:36. | |
send them to [email protected] or tweets | :01:36. | :01:43. | |
your, and using #bbcdp. -- tweeted your comments. There has | :01:43. | :01:47. | |
been misery as flooding and torrential rain hit this weekend. | :01:47. | :01:51. | |
More than 800 homes were deluged and more is under way as the rains | :01:51. | :01:56. | |
keep coming. The Met Office has issued an amber warning for North | :01:56. | :01:59. | |
Wales and the north-east of England. The Environment Agency says there | :01:59. | :02:04. | |
are currently 204 flood warnings on their website. Scotland is at risk | :02:04. | :02:07. | |
and it has emerged this morning that some people may find their | :02:07. | :02:11. | |
homes uninsurable as talks between the government and the Association | :02:11. | :02:14. | |
of British Insurers have failed to reach agreement. | :02:14. | :02:17. | |
The Government is committed to improving flood defences and in | :02:17. | :02:22. | |
return insurers are obliged to provide cover for high-risk | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
properties. This morning Nick Starling of the ABI said it was not | :02:26. | :02:29. | |
about tax payers footing the bill. We've had two years since the major | :02:29. | :02:33. | |
flood summit held by the Government, two years to sort this out. The | :02:33. | :02:37. | |
industry has put a lot of work and money into creating a model and it | :02:37. | :02:42. | |
is not right to say it would burden the taxpayer. The model develops a | :02:42. | :02:47. | |
fund, and into that front go a high risk premiums and the small levy. | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
In circumstances where there is a major flood and not enough within | :02:50. | :02:56. | |
the fund to pay the claims, we ask for a temporary overdraft to be | :02:56. | :03:01. | |
paid the next year. It is wrong to say it is a burden on the taxpayer, | :03:01. | :03:05. | |
it is an elegant solution enabling us to move on and it would be a | :03:05. | :03:10. | |
world leader in flood insurance. We are joined now by Richard Benyon, | :03:10. | :03:14. | |
the minister in charge of tackling floods. Can we pick up on that, has | :03:14. | :03:17. | |
the Government rejected a deal that would ensure that those at high | :03:17. | :03:24. | |
risk of flooding would continue to get affordable premiums? We are not | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
in the deadlock position which some people are reporting. That is not | :03:27. | :03:32. | |
what he says. There was a very good meeting towards the end of next | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
week and -- last week and we expect more meetings in the next few days. | :03:36. | :03:40. | |
I must register disappointment that it has been done and the backdrop | :03:40. | :03:44. | |
of pretty tragic floods in large parts of the country. I don't think | :03:44. | :03:48. | |
it is the time to raise it, although it is an important issue | :03:49. | :03:54. | |
for households. Households want to have certainty, those people living | :03:54. | :03:57. | |
in high-risk areas, that there is some sort of deal that means they | :03:57. | :04:01. | |
can get affordable premiums. Whether you are in a deadlock, or | :04:01. | :04:05. | |
you don't see it that way and the insurers do, is very deal that can | :04:05. | :04:11. | |
be do in the next few months? -- is there a deal that can be done in | :04:11. | :04:19. | |
the next few months? We want universal insurance for Flood Risk | :04:19. | :04:23. | |
Homes, which is not done at the moment, and the key would be at an | :04:23. | :04:27. | |
affordable level for households on low incomes. Premiums will have to | :04:27. | :04:32. | |
go up? At the moment there is no measure in the current agreement | :04:32. | :04:37. | |
that says anything about premiums or excess charges, which is a big | :04:37. | :04:41. | |
worry for householders. We want to bring that into the arrangement | :04:41. | :04:45. | |
that will follow one from the statement of principle which ends | :04:45. | :04:50. | |
in June next year. We are representing the tax payer and it | :04:50. | :04:52. | |
is really important we have a good deal for households who have many | :04:53. | :04:57. | |
burdens on their incomes, we want something affordable, but most of | :04:57. | :05:00. | |
all we want to concentrate at the moment on dealing with floods right | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
up and down this country, in some cases they have had tragic | :05:03. | :05:09. | |
consequences. Finally, there is a specific issue of a guaranteed | :05:09. | :05:13. | |
overdraft which is what being so it -- the Association of British | :05:13. | :05:17. | |
Insurers is talking about. Will you agree to provide a guaranteed | :05:17. | :05:21. | |
overdraft to fund any emergencies in the first two or three years, | :05:21. | :05:26. | |
while the scheme is being built? would be wrong for me or any | :05:26. | :05:31. | |
minister to be negotiated over the airwaves. We have had good meetings, | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
and will continue to have good meetings, with the insurance | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
industry and I will simply not do that in public, it would be quite | :05:39. | :05:42. | |
wrong. We are representing the hard-pressed taxpayer to make sure | :05:42. | :05:46. | |
we are getting the best deal for them for households that are really | :05:46. | :05:50. | |
worried about this as quickly as possible. Tanni Grey-Thompson, what | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
do you think? It sounds as if the row was going on about whether a | :05:54. | :05:58. | |
premium should go up, the insurers wanted to go up to cover these | :05:58. | :06:02. | |
emergencies, do you think it should? They probably have to, | :06:02. | :06:08. | |
which is quite unfortunate. For people trying to pump water out of | :06:08. | :06:14. | |
their houses, it is almost impossible to associate. I think | :06:14. | :06:17. | |
the public expect there to be support for these people | :06:17. | :06:21. | |
experiencing really difficult times. One of the things are flood | :06:21. | :06:24. | |
defences themselves, what do you say to residents in Worcestershire | :06:24. | :06:29. | |
who were flooded despite a �1.7 million flood defence system which | :06:30. | :06:36. | |
failed to work? I feel desperate for them. That money was wasted? | :06:36. | :06:40. | |
it failed because a pump did not kick in. Somebody has been sitting | :06:40. | :06:45. | |
overnight to make sure it did. I think it is a pity that people have | :06:45. | :06:49. | |
concentrated on one scheme that failed, one of a 26,000 homes, as | :06:49. | :06:53. | |
of last night, were protected by a recently built flood schemes that | :06:53. | :06:59. | |
have worked. I feel desperate for those people. I think it is | :06:59. | :07:02. | |
important that we concentrate on the many thousands of homes that | :07:02. | :07:06. | |
have not bloody its because really good, well-thought-out schemes of | :07:06. | :07:10. | |
taxpayers' money have been spent properly. Should there be more of | :07:10. | :07:14. | |
them to prevent the people who have been flooded, who will be dishing | :07:14. | :07:22. | |
the water out? We are spending �2.17 billion in this period on | :07:22. | :07:27. | |
building new... Produced will see those endless images of people just | :07:27. | :07:35. | |
being devastated. -- but you still see those endless images. There are | :07:35. | :07:39. | |
5.2 million homes at some sort of bloodless, we want to concentrate | :07:39. | :07:42. | |
on those most at blowed was, communities who get up every | :07:42. | :07:49. | |
morning, they see it raining and they worry. We have got another �72 | :07:49. | :07:53. | |
million on what we are spending from other schemes, trying to get | :07:53. | :07:59. | |
these up and built. Our insurers being a bit irresponsible | :07:59. | :08:04. | |
discussing this in public? -- our insurers being? We are disappointed | :08:04. | :08:08. | |
it has been discussed today when people are wading about in wet | :08:08. | :08:12. | |
houses. We are working with them and we want a solution, that is | :08:12. | :08:18. | |
what people want. This morning two of the main | :08:18. | :08:22. | |
political stories concern UKIP. It emerged over the weekend that | :08:22. | :08:26. | |
officials working for Rotherham council removed three children from | :08:26. | :08:31. | |
foster parents because the parents were UKIP members. The director of | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
Children's Services at the council, Joyce Thacker, said these children | :08:34. | :08:39. | |
are from EU migrant backgrounds and UKIP has very clear statements on | :08:39. | :08:44. | |
ending multiculturalism. Rotherham Council is Labour-controlled | :08:44. | :08:46. | |
Lambeth council has ordered a report into the case, which | :08:46. | :08:51. | |
apparently they are looking at as we speak. Joining me from Rotherham | :08:51. | :08:58. | |
is the BBC Yorkshire political editor, Len Tingle. They are | :08:58. | :09:01. | |
discussing Match report and I heard you say there has been a meeting | :09:01. | :09:04. | |
between Joyce Thacker, the leader of the council, and the Chief | :09:04. | :09:09. | |
Executive? That ended about half- an-hour ago. Literally two minutes | :09:09. | :09:15. | |
ago, popping into my Inbox here was a statement from the council. Tries | :09:15. | :09:19. | |
Back came out of this meeting, walked right past us, I asked if | :09:20. | :09:26. | |
she felt under pressure, whether she thought she was still in a job. | :09:26. | :09:31. | |
-- Joyce Thacker came out of this meeting. A couple of minutes later, | :09:31. | :09:34. | |
the Labour leader of the council... You will probably hear behind me we | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
are in the middle of a by-election, everything happening at once. I | :09:38. | :09:43. | |
don't think it is entirely coincidental that Respect have | :09:43. | :09:49. | |
pulled their truck up behind me. But as far as this particular she | :09:49. | :09:53. | |
was concerned, we are hearing from the council in their statement that | :09:53. | :09:58. | |
they have ordered a further inquiry, they are not talking about any | :09:58. | :10:01. | |
disciplinary action against any members of the council. They want | :10:01. | :10:07. | |
to know more. They say the interest of the children is paramount, they | :10:07. | :10:11. | |
are sending a report to the Secretary of State and that is as | :10:11. | :10:13. | |
far as they have got this morning. They are not expecting the council | :10:13. | :10:19. | |
to give a statement. The leader of the council said this is probably | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
one of the councils with more Labour councillors on it than any | :10:22. | :10:27. | |
other in the country. I think there are only four councillors that are | :10:27. | :10:32. | |
not Labour. The leader, a veteran leader, walked past us without | :10:32. | :10:37. | |
making any statements are tall. sounds the nobody is talking at the | :10:37. | :10:43. | |
moment. -- without making any statement at all. | :10:43. | :10:47. | |
Thank you, Len Tingle. Elsewhere, the Conservative Party | :10:47. | :10:50. | |
vice-chairman Michael Fabricant has called for an electoral pact with | :10:50. | :10:55. | |
you coup. He thinks David Cameron should promise to hold them in-out | :10:55. | :11:02. | |
referendum on the youth -- on the EU if UKIP promises not to stand | :11:02. | :11:05. | |
against Conservative candidates and 2013. He said it could mark the | :11:05. | :11:10. | |
final rapprochement between warring brothers. The UKIP leader tweeted | :11:10. | :11:13. | |
in response, Olympic and Paralympic Games Task and Finish Group. We | :11:13. | :11:18. | |
will hear from Michael Fabricant a little later, but I am joined by | :11:18. | :11:25. | |
the UKIP leader Nigel Farage. You wants heads to roll? What has | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
happened is an outrage, I think that is shared by the vast majority | :11:28. | :11:32. | |
in the country. These couple have fostered for seven years and done | :11:32. | :11:36. | |
an impeccable job. But on the basis of their views, that they support a | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
party that thinks we should not be in the EU and we should control | :11:40. | :11:44. | |
migration into Britain, this has been done to them. I want them to | :11:44. | :11:50. | |
be pardoned, I want the children to be returned, and heads should roll. | :11:50. | :11:55. | |
Whose heads? Joyce Thacker? Without a shadow of the doubt, she should | :11:55. | :11:59. | |
go. This is not the first time that Rotherham have done badly in | :11:59. | :12:04. | |
protecting children. What is the party policy on multiculturalism? | :12:04. | :12:08. | |
We don't want to spend state money encouraging further division in | :12:08. | :12:13. | |
society, which is what we did for 40 years in pursuing | :12:13. | :12:16. | |
multiculturalism. Trevor Phillips on the Prime Minister now agreed. | :12:16. | :12:19. | |
We think if people come here legally, we have to make sure they | :12:19. | :12:23. | |
all speak English and integrate. You don't like councils promoting | :12:23. | :12:29. | |
the idea of multiculturalism? As an observer, what is your reaction to | :12:29. | :12:33. | |
the stir the -- story, looking at it from a human perspective? That | :12:33. | :12:35. | |
the children were taken away apparently on the basis of them | :12:35. | :12:40. | |
being members of UKIP. headlines are very stop and | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
worrying. The children need to be protected. If there were concerns | :12:44. | :12:47. | |
about the family, the children should not have been there in the | :12:47. | :12:52. | |
first place, that is terribly disruptive. I don't think being a | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
member of a party should be a bar to fostering, it should probably be | :12:55. | :12:59. | |
encouraged because they are more understanding about society. I | :12:59. | :13:03. | |
would like to see if there is any more behind it rather than just | :13:03. | :13:08. | |
being a member of UKIP. Joyce Thacker, who defended their | :13:08. | :13:12. | |
position at the weekend, has said that the children, who were from EU | :13:12. | :13:15. | |
migrant backgrounds, had been removed to protect their cultural | :13:15. | :13:21. | |
and ethnic needs from UKIP's strong views and apparent opposition to | :13:21. | :13:24. | |
multiculturalism. She says she is legally obliged to fulfil that | :13:24. | :13:31. | |
requirement. We don't buy that. What did you buy? She was | :13:31. | :13:36. | |
backtracking. Initially the couple were told the children were being | :13:36. | :13:40. | |
removed because UKIP was viewed as a racist party, that is what they | :13:40. | :13:44. | |
were told and why the children were removed. Joyce Thacker is now | :13:44. | :13:49. | |
backtracking slightly 4th of the truth of his it -- truth of it is | :13:49. | :13:52. | |
these three children were singing nursery rhymes in their native | :13:52. | :13:55. | |
language and doing the same in English, surely that shows they | :13:55. | :14:01. | |
were in a very good environment indeed? Just that there, | :14:01. | :14:05. | |
backtracking or not and rightly or wrongly, feels that she is only | :14:05. | :14:10. | |
during what she proposed to do legally -- Joyce Thacker, | :14:10. | :14:14. | |
backtracking or not. Judges in sit -- insist that children from ethnic | :14:14. | :14:19. | |
minority backgrounds are placed in homes to promote ethnic and | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
cultural minorities, which UKIP does not believe in. The children | :14:23. | :14:26. | |
were not being told to forget their background or give up their | :14:26. | :14:32. | |
language, far from it. But can you understand it Joyce Thacker's view? | :14:32. | :14:37. | |
It might be wrong, as far as you see it, but a logical train of | :14:38. | :14:40. | |
thought is this family were not right because they would not want | :14:40. | :14:45. | |
to promote those things because it is not what UKIP believes in? | :14:45. | :14:48. | |
and everyone has moved on it recognises that the way we were | :14:48. | :14:53. | |
doing it was a mistake. -- virtually everyone has moved on and | :14:53. | :14:58. | |
recognises. So what has Joyce Thacker done wrong? Sent officers | :14:58. | :15:01. | |
in and removed three children from a loving environment on the basis | :15:01. | :15:08. | |
that they were members of a racist party. She was wrong. You say you | :15:08. | :15:14. | |
want the children removed -- disciplinary action will take place. | :15:14. | :15:18. | |
What are you going to do? children have been uprooted again, | :15:18. | :15:23. | |
the couple are in limbo, heads will clearly not role. I am worried that | :15:23. | :15:27. | |
the inquiry is just kicking the camp down the road. If we will not | :15:27. | :15:31. | |
get redress from the council, we will have to consider other members | :15:31. | :15:35. | |
like the legal route. On the basis... That they have been | :15:35. | :15:40. | |
discriminated against. You could argue that whoever the official was | :15:40. | :15:45. | |
in Rotherham is not the only person to be disparaging about UKIP. In | :15:45. | :15:50. | |
2006, David Cameron said that members of UKIP, mostly, but not | :15:50. | :15:55. | |
all, where fruit cake alone -- fruit cake and rubies and closet | :15:55. | :15:59. | |
racists. On Saturday from Ed Miliband to Michael Gove we saw | :15:59. | :16:05. | |
virtually every one say it was wrong because UKIP is not racist. | :16:05. | :16:10. | |
Joyce Thacker said she thought UKIP was not a racist party on Radio 4, | :16:10. | :16:15. | |
more backtracking. The only person that chose to abuse UKIP and imply | :16:15. | :16:19. | |
that somehow it was racist was David Cameron again, and we are | :16:19. | :16:25. | |
appalled. What would you say? What would you do? I think that links | :16:25. | :16:28. | |
into the next story, Michael Fabricant has an idea that somehow | :16:28. | :16:33. | |
they will buy us off by offering me a job and UKIP will pack up its | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
tents and go wrong. The trouble is, Mr Fabricant, it is very difficult | :16:38. | :16:43. | |
for us to believe anything David Cameron says, because he gave us a | :16:43. | :16:46. | |
cast-iron guarantee, if you remember, that we would have a | :16:46. | :16:53. | |
referendum, and it has not happened. I mentioned earlier that the | :16:53. | :16:55. | |
Conservative Party vice-chairman Michael Fabricant had written a | :16:55. | :16:59. | |
report calling for a pact between his party and UKIP at the next | :16:59. | :17:04. | |
I spoke to Michael Fabricant earlier and I asked him about it. | :17:04. | :17:08. | |
Apart from some action on Twitter last night, with Nigel Farage, I | :17:08. | :17:12. | |
have had absolutely no dealings with UKIP. This is an internal | :17:12. | :17:17. | |
discussion document. I have published it because I think it | :17:17. | :17:20. | |
deserves full debate. If we ever chose to implement it, and that | :17:20. | :17:25. | |
would not be my decision, that would be done in 24 months' time. | :17:25. | :17:31. | |
Guess, but it would be an electoral pact. You are saying you would not | :17:31. | :17:35. | |
put UKIP candidates up in areas where Tories are standing. That's | :17:35. | :17:40. | |
right. We are living in an era of electoral pacts and coalitions. Who | :17:40. | :17:43. | |
would have thought that the Conservatives would have entered | :17:43. | :17:48. | |
into a coalition government with the Liberal Democrats? But they did | :17:48. | :17:52. | |
that after the result, not as part of a packed beforehand. So, it | :17:52. | :17:56. | |
looks as if you are worried about the result of the 2015 election, | :17:56. | :18:00. | |
you do not think you will get an overall majority unless you get | :18:00. | :18:03. | |
into a packed with UKIP. exactly. I do not know what the | :18:04. | :18:08. | |
situation will be like in 24 months' time. It could be that we | :18:08. | :18:12. | |
could win an election outright, and in fact I am pretty confident that | :18:12. | :18:16. | |
we might do just that. What I am doing is saying, but we should have | :18:16. | :18:20. | |
a number of strings to our bow, and this might be one of them. It all | :18:20. | :18:24. | |
comes about because it was Nigel Farage who said in his party | :18:24. | :18:29. | |
conference speech that he would entertain such a pact. I know that | :18:29. | :18:34. | |
last night, on Twitter, he said, no, we are at war with the | :18:34. | :18:39. | |
Conservatives. I gather this morning he was coming back from | :18:39. | :18:43. | |
that a little bit. I understand that you have got him on the | :18:43. | :18:47. | |
programme possibly, and you will ask that question. But this is not | :18:47. | :18:52. | |
a bed -- this is not a debate that we will be having with UKIP until | :18:52. | :18:56. | |
possibly 24 months from now, and that debate might not be necessary. | :18:56. | :19:01. | |
But if he is saying, this is war, you are left with egg on your face. | :19:01. | :19:05. | |
But he keeps changing his mind. He said he would do it at the party | :19:05. | :19:08. | |
conference, then he said last night, this is war, and I gather this | :19:08. | :19:12. | |
morning, he is saying, there is a possibility. At the end of the day, | :19:12. | :19:17. | |
we should all keep our powder dry. I do not make up strategy. That | :19:17. | :19:20. | |
will be the decision of Number Ten Downing Street in 24 months' time, | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
or whatever, if they choose to explore this further. In the | :19:25. | :19:30. | |
meantime, I just want to get a debate. What could you promise him, | :19:30. | :19:34. | |
to entice him back? You say he is vulnerable to changing his mind, so | :19:34. | :19:38. | |
what could you offer him in terms of government? It would not be me | :19:38. | :19:43. | |
for a start.. But could you see Nigel Farage in Cabinet? It would | :19:43. | :19:48. | |
be a decision for David Cameron. I think Nigel Farage has got a lot of | :19:48. | :19:52. | |
talent. We bring in people from other parties to do things in | :19:52. | :19:56. | |
government. But that will be a decision for David Cameron and | :19:56. | :20:01. | |
George Osborne, and those who make up a strategy. I still say that if | :20:01. | :20:05. | |
people want a good deal in Europe, they would be better off voting | :20:05. | :20:10. | |
Conservative. The problem is, they do not always do so, they vote UKIP, | :20:10. | :20:14. | |
and that can cost boat's. Do you agree with Nigel Farage that David | :20:14. | :20:17. | |
Cameron has lost everybody down on the issue of a referendum on | :20:17. | :20:24. | |
Europe? -- that can cost votes. Not at all. There has been a great deal | :20:24. | :20:28. | |
of deception about this issue. David Cameron said that if the | :20:28. | :20:33. | |
Lisbon Treaty were not put -- was not endorsed, was not made into a | :20:34. | :20:37. | |
full treaty by the time of the last election, we would have a | :20:37. | :20:41. | |
referendum on whether we signed it. A lot of your colleagues feel they | :20:41. | :20:44. | |
have been marched to the top of the hill and then straight back down | :20:44. | :20:48. | |
again. I don't think so at all. David Cameron made it very, very | :20:48. | :20:51. | |
clear that if the Lisbon Treaty were already signed by the time we | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
got in, it would be closing the stable door after the horse had | :20:55. | :21:01. | |
bolted. What are you promising UKIP, if they did agree not to put | :21:01. | :21:04. | |
candidates up against the Conservatives, what are you | :21:04. | :21:08. | |
promising them? What I am saying is that we would have to give, and | :21:08. | :21:13. | |
this is based on Nigel Farage's speech, a cast-iron guarantee that | :21:13. | :21:22. | |
after the general election, there would be a straight referendum, in- | :21:22. | :21:27. | |
and out, or Europe. Is that actually achievable, to give a | :21:27. | :21:32. | |
cast-iron guarantee? Nigel Farage said it would have to be signed in | :21:32. | :21:37. | |
blood. If we feel in 24 months' time that we want to deal with UKIP | :21:37. | :21:41. | |
- and as I said, it may not be necessary, it may not be | :21:41. | :21:46. | |
advantageous - I will donate a pint. Good for you. But Downing Street | :21:46. | :21:50. | |
have distanced themselves from you today, having called for an | :21:50. | :21:56. | |
electoral pact with UKIP. Number 10 Downing Street said, Michael | :21:56. | :22:00. | |
Fabricant does not speak for the party on this issue. Quite right. | :22:00. | :22:05. | |
They say really, you should shut up on this issue. Mine is a discussion | :22:05. | :22:09. | |
document, and I wanted discussed. I do not want it discussed yet with | :22:10. | :22:14. | |
UKIP, as I say, it is something which might have to be decided in | :22:14. | :22:19. | |
24 months' time. That decision will be made not by me, but by David | :22:19. | :22:22. | |
Cameron and George Osborne and their advisers. Should David | :22:22. | :22:27. | |
Cameron retract his statement about some UKIP members being loonies and | :22:27. | :22:32. | |
closet racists? I heard the interview yesterday on the BBC | :22:32. | :22:38. | |
website. It was an interview which was done back in 2006. The truth is, | :22:38. | :22:43. | |
some UKIP members are. I will be very controversial and say, I think | :22:43. | :22:47. | |
some Conservative members might be, and some Labour members and some | :22:47. | :22:52. | |
Lib Dem MPs. But David Cameron has not said it about Labour and Lib | :22:52. | :22:57. | |
Dem MPs. He has specifically said it about some UKIP members - should | :22:57. | :23:00. | |
he retract that? I heard the interview, I do not think it needs | :23:00. | :23:07. | |
retraction at all. Nigel Farage is an intelligent man. He will do what | :23:07. | :23:11. | |
he thinks is best for the country in its relationship with the | :23:11. | :23:14. | |
European Union. Let's see what happens in two years' time, if it | :23:14. | :23:22. | |
is necessary. In the meantime, I have got the debate going. Let's | :23:22. | :23:25. | |
put it to Nigel Farage - are there any circumstances in which you | :23:25. | :23:32. | |
would sign up to an electoral pact? I did say in our conference that if | :23:32. | :23:34. | |
Ed Miliband or David Cameron were to make a clear promise that the | :23:35. | :23:37. | |
country would have a full referendum about the continued | :23:37. | :23:41. | |
membership of the European Union, and wanted to come and talk to us | :23:41. | :23:43. | |
about that, and about how the election should be managed, we | :23:43. | :23:48. | |
would sit and talk around the table. The difficulty of course is how we | :23:48. | :23:52. | |
could trust any such promise. a good enough deal, I suppose, for | :23:52. | :24:00. | |
you, that it might be worth trusting them. You could save | :24:00. | :24:03. | |
yourselves all of those lost deposits. We would need to believe | :24:03. | :24:06. | |
that it is actually going to happen. But what has changed over the | :24:06. | :24:11. | |
course of this weekend is that it is all well and good speaking about | :24:11. | :24:14. | |
the 2006 interview, in which Cameron was abusive about UKIP, but | :24:14. | :24:19. | |
he did it again on Saturday. In the wake of this Rotherham scandal, he | :24:19. | :24:23. | |
did it again. It is very difficult to see how you could do a deal with | :24:23. | :24:27. | |
somebody who has consistently rude about you. Do you think they should | :24:27. | :24:31. | |
be considering deals and contract like this? That is a really | :24:31. | :24:35. | |
difficult one. I am not sure. I think for people interested in | :24:35. | :24:39. | |
politics, this is all quite amusing. There was a bit of navel-gazing, to | :24:39. | :24:43. | |
be honest. For people on the outside, they were just think this | :24:43. | :24:46. | |
is politicians going on as they usually do. I do not see the point | :24:46. | :24:49. | |
of having a discussion document when they are not actually | :24:50. | :24:53. | |
discussing with UKIP. It seems like a bit of hot air, to be honest, | :24:53. | :24:59. | |
delaying any decisions on Europe. He is sort of saying that they | :24:59. | :25:02. | |
would offer me some kind of position, and the rest of the party | :25:02. | :25:06. | |
would pack up its tent and go home. Is there something you would like | :25:06. | :25:09. | |
in government? Yes, I would really like for there to be the most | :25:10. | :25:13. | |
enormous all-night party, after we get the result, and Britain has | :25:13. | :25:17. | |
left the European Union, and we are back governing our own country. | :25:17. | :25:21. | |
That is what I am in politics full. You are cross with David Cameron, | :25:21. | :25:27. | |
so which potential Conservative leader would you trust? Well, this | :25:28. | :25:31. | |
means that Cameron would not be leader of the party. Because he is | :25:31. | :25:37. | |
the major obstacle. If he went, who could you do business with? | :25:37. | :25:40. | |
Cameron went, and somebody pragmatic, grown-up and sensible, | :25:40. | :25:44. | |
like Michael Gove, was leader, then you might think, we could sit | :25:44. | :25:48. | |
around the table and have a discussion. Have you spoken to | :25:48. | :25:52. | |
Michael Gove privately about these things? No. But he would be the | :25:52. | :25:57. | |
kind of person? Yes, open-minded, does not throw abuse around, thinks | :25:57. | :26:00. | |
things through, he would be the right kind of person. Because there | :26:01. | :26:05. | |
are things which you have in common, even beyond the question of the | :26:05. | :26:10. | |
referendum? Not really. We support grammar-school, they do not. | :26:10. | :26:13. | |
They're obsessed with covering the country with windmills, we are not. | :26:13. | :26:23. | |
:26:23. | :26:27. | ||
The list goes on. I did not say we would sit down, -- we would stand | :26:27. | :26:34. | |
down, I said we would sit around a table and have a conversation. | :26:34. | :26:37. | |
do you need in order to be persuaded that you could trust the | :26:37. | :26:41. | |
Conservatives? It is going to be very difficult if David Cameron is | :26:41. | :26:43. | |
still the Prime Minister, to believe that he would keep that | :26:43. | :26:51. | |
promise. One issue which concerns me would be a referendum on Europe | :26:51. | :26:55. | |
- do you feel it is something which the people would like to see? | :26:55. | :26:58. | |
would be quite concerned about having a referendum, because I do | :26:58. | :27:01. | |
not think most of the British public understand enough about | :27:01. | :27:06. | |
Europe, about what it means to be there. I think a referendum at some | :27:06. | :27:09. | |
point would be a good idea, but I think there needs to be an awful | :27:09. | :27:14. | |
lot more education. Would you like a straight referendum on in or out, | :27:14. | :27:18. | |
or would it be something else? think ultimately, it would have to | :27:18. | :27:21. | |
be in or out, but at the moment I would not agree to have one, | :27:21. | :27:26. | |
because people do not know enough. But it is not difficult - do you | :27:26. | :27:31. | |
wish to govern your own country or be governed by Herman Van Rompuy? | :27:31. | :27:38. | |
It is not difficult? You have a very firm stand point... That is | :27:38. | :27:41. | |
the classic view that I here in Westminster. When we are canvassing | :27:41. | :27:45. | |
and campaigning, every single small business in Britain knows exactly | :27:45. | :27:49. | |
where their laws come from. based just saying they would like | :27:50. | :27:55. | |
to have a look at the relationship? -- are they just saying? They | :27:55. | :27:58. | |
understand that Europe is not just an economic debate, something which | :27:58. | :28:02. | |
happens in Brussels - it is something which happens in this | :28:02. | :28:05. | |
country and affects people's lives. Many people do not believe in it, | :28:05. | :28:08. | |
but to say that people are not ready to have a referendum, I do | :28:08. | :28:12. | |
not agree.. As we mentioned earlier, there is a by-election taking place | :28:12. | :28:19. | |
in Rotherham this Thursday, and you can read a full list of the | :28:19. | :28:23. | |
candidates on the BBC Sheffield and South Yorkshire website. It was | :28:23. | :28:27. | |
quite a summer. The Olympics helped lift the gloom and made us all feel | :28:27. | :28:31. | |
a bit proud to be British. But have we managed to turn that golden | :28:31. | :28:36. | |
feeling into a lasting legacy, not just for sport, but also for that | :28:36. | :28:40. | |
sense of community which we enjoyed just a few short months ago. | :28:40. | :28:44. | |
Interest in sport is on the up, and this programme has learnt that the | :28:44. | :28:49. | |
police are hoping that some of the volunteers who made the Olympic | :28:49. | :28:53. | |
Games happen might become special constables. But long-term, are we | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
doing enough to make sure the spirit survives? David Thompson | :28:56. | :29:06. | |
:29:06. | :29:11. | ||
An unforgettable summer. Quite simply, Britain at its best. The | :29:11. | :29:15. | |
Olympics did not just change our view of London, it changed the way | :29:15. | :29:19. | |
the whole country looks at itself. Some said it was a living example | :29:19. | :29:23. | |
of the Big Society, with thousands of people coming together to make | :29:23. | :29:27. | |
the Olympic Games work. It is the feel-good factor still with us, and | :29:27. | :29:31. | |
has the enthusiasm for volunteering been harnessed? For many people, | :29:31. | :29:36. | |
the real stars of the show were the Gamesmakers, an army of 70,000 | :29:36. | :29:40. | |
volunteers who made everything tick. In fact, they were such a striking | :29:40. | :29:44. | |
example of public spirit that I understand the Metropolitan Police | :29:44. | :29:47. | |
is considering trying to sign some of them up as special constables. | :29:47. | :29:52. | |
But has it really inspired others? The Olympics has had a significant | :29:52. | :29:56. | |
effect on volunteering for our organisation. We have had the | :29:56. | :30:00. | |
numbers of inquiries more than doubling, since the Olympics, up to | :30:00. | :30:04. | |
the current day, and it seems to be holding up. I think the reason is | :30:04. | :30:07. | |
that it has suddenly raised volunteering into consciousness.. | :30:07. | :30:11. | |
And it looks as if our summer triumphs have given sport a boost | :30:11. | :30:16. | |
as well. British Cycling say their membership is up 50% since the | :30:16. | :30:20. | |
heroics of the summer. Bookings for beginners' courses have doubled in | :30:21. | :30:25. | |
fencing, and in archery, novice classes are also booked up into the | :30:25. | :30:32. | |
new year. But it is not all good news. Research found that while the | :30:32. | :30:36. | |
Olympics had inspired almost 80% of young people questioned to take up | :30:36. | :30:39. | |
some kind of exercise, less than a quarter had actually been able to | :30:40. | :30:48. | |
In disadvantaged areas there are not enough sports opportunities, | :30:48. | :30:53. | |
and where there are they are often at the wrong style, praise or | :30:53. | :30:56. | |
location to suits need. So there is a problem about a lack of | :30:56. | :31:01. | |
opportunity. The sports and recreational | :31:01. | :31:05. | |
alliance surveyed almost 500 clubs in the UK and found many were | :31:06. | :31:10. | |
expecting more people to take up some form of exercise as a direct | :31:10. | :31:13. | |
result of the Games, but almost three-quarters said the Government | :31:13. | :31:18. | |
had not done enough to create a sporting legacy for the public. | :31:18. | :31:24. | |
In a time of austerity, how should ministers keep the flame burning? | :31:24. | :31:27. | |
Up and down the country there are really good quality local delivery | :31:27. | :31:34. | |
projects for sports at the right time, place, style, price. They are | :31:34. | :31:37. | |
on the doorstep of youngsters who say they want to get involved but | :31:37. | :31:42. | |
don't know how. I think it is finding ways to invest in them and | :31:42. | :31:47. | |
empower them and that then take forward to the legacy spirit. | :31:47. | :31:50. | |
are pretty good of closing ceremonies, too. The trick now is | :31:50. | :31:54. | |
to make sure this was the end of the games and not the end of the | :31:54. | :32:03. | |
dream. -- the end of the Games. Councillor Stephen Castle from the | :32:03. | :32:07. | |
Local Government Association joins me, he is chairman of the Olympic | :32:07. | :32:10. | |
and Paralympic Games Task and Finish Group. And Paralympic gold | :32:10. | :32:14. | |
medallist Tanni Grey-Thompson is still here. You said and our | :32:14. | :32:17. | |
programme at one stage that you were worried that the fairy dust of | :32:17. | :32:21. | |
the Olympics and Paralympics might disappear. I don't think it has | :32:22. | :32:26. | |
gone but it has definitely pushed back. Everybody talking to each | :32:26. | :32:30. | |
other on the true bad games time has disappeared, but it was never | :32:30. | :32:34. | |
going to completely change the culture of participation. It has | :32:34. | :32:38. | |
encouraged people to go to sports clubs, which we expected, but we | :32:38. | :32:42. | |
have to do more. There are some issues with local sports provision, | :32:43. | :32:48. | |
it is a postcode lottery. Local authorities are under pressure, | :32:48. | :32:50. | |
some are closing sports facilities because it is not seen as a | :32:50. | :32:57. | |
priority. We have to come back to physical education in schools, | :32:57. | :33:01. | |
sport is a perfect opportunity to signpost young people into being | :33:01. | :33:04. | |
physically active and unless we get it right we have missed a huge | :33:04. | :33:09. | |
opportunity. Taking the point about the schools, | :33:09. | :33:12. | |
do you think the Olympic dream has not really harnessed a generation | :33:12. | :33:19. | |
in that sense? It was there and it has gone? It was never going to. | :33:19. | :33:23. | |
Many politicians felt it would undid should. All the statistics | :33:23. | :33:26. | |
from previous games have shown it is like the Wimbledon effect, you | :33:26. | :33:31. | |
get a spiking participation but there has to be something behind it. | :33:31. | :33:37. | |
For me, we could look at women. 80% of women don't do enough physical | :33:37. | :33:41. | |
activity to be healthy, which has massive implications on society. | :33:41. | :33:45. | |
Mums are much more likely to encourage their sons to play sport | :33:45. | :33:51. | |
than their daughters. What would encourage women to do more sport? | :33:51. | :33:55. | |
If having of local, accessible, not making it frightening going into a | :33:55. | :34:01. | |
gym. -- having it local, accessible. A is it possible when there are | :34:01. | :34:06. | |
cuts? Local government has had a tough time, as has the entire | :34:06. | :34:13. | |
public sector. But I think the Government has taken the magic dust | :34:13. | :34:17. | |
of the game's end used it to build partnerships, to get new | :34:17. | :34:21. | |
organisations involved in supporting sport and delivering | :34:21. | :34:24. | |
opportunities that tied together clubs and local authorities and | :34:24. | :34:29. | |
schools. The health agenda is an important one in bringing funding | :34:29. | :34:33. | |
into sport. With a new public health responsibility given to | :34:33. | :34:38. | |
local government there is a huge opportunity to tire that into | :34:38. | :34:44. | |
delivering sporting opportunities. Jessica Ennis's home town of | :34:44. | :34:47. | |
Sheffield is looking for a 20% reduction in the swimming pool and | :34:47. | :34:52. | |
leisure budget. Sheffield has some of the best sporting facilities in | :34:52. | :34:57. | |
the country. In places like Essex, where historically we did not have | :34:57. | :35:01. | |
had... Did not have, we have used the magic dust of the Games to bend | :35:01. | :35:05. | |
budgets to make things happen. Seven to local authorities have | :35:05. | :35:10. | |
closed at least one sporting facility and 126 have reduced | :35:10. | :35:17. | |
provision. Looking at Basildon, they have close two or three very | :35:17. | :35:21. | |
ageing sports facilities and invested money in a world class | :35:21. | :35:24. | |
pool and gymnastics centre up. Basildon is one of the most | :35:24. | :35:28. | |
deprived parts of Essex and participation is going up. I get | :35:28. | :35:32. | |
the impression that money is being put into sport but these are big, | :35:32. | :35:36. | |
showcasing Olympic arenas or stadiums that are not going to | :35:36. | :35:41. | |
persuade women who live in the local area to go to be gym? They | :35:41. | :35:45. | |
are part of what is going on in Essex. We did not have world-class | :35:45. | :35:49. | |
sporting facilities. Now we are seeing the athletes who got medals | :35:49. | :35:53. | |
in the Olympic Games From Basildon gymnastics club are inspiring | :35:53. | :35:59. | |
youngsters in Basildon to see what they could achieve. Lord Moynihan | :35:59. | :36:02. | |
said he wants new laws to force councils to ring-fence money for | :36:02. | :36:08. | |
leisure provision, do you agree? Yes, because it is that just about | :36:08. | :36:12. | |
elite sport, which looks after itself, but having a fitter and | :36:12. | :36:15. | |
healthier nation. If we don't do something now, we will spend more | :36:15. | :36:19. | |
on the health budget. I would like to see the Department of Health, | :36:19. | :36:22. | |
DCMS and the Department of Education get together and work | :36:22. | :36:27. | |
closely. I don't think council budgets should be ring-fenced. What | :36:27. | :36:31. | |
councils are really good at is working out what is good for their | :36:31. | :36:35. | |
locality. Dame Tanni is right, the big spenders are local government, | :36:35. | :36:39. | |
education and potentially health. If the Government can send a clear | :36:39. | :36:44. | |
message, diving Jeremy Hunt in health, there was a big supporter | :36:44. | :36:49. | |
of the Games and the School Games, could get investment in sport and | :36:49. | :36:53. | |
physical activity. We do a great job with Sport England, working at | :36:53. | :37:00. | |
the DCMS, but the departments of health and education, we could do | :37:00. | :37:06. | |
more with them locally. The austerity era could last until | :37:06. | :37:10. | |
2018 if the economy does not pick up soon, according to a leading | :37:10. | :37:14. | |
think-tank. The Institute of Fiscal Studies warns that the Government | :37:14. | :37:17. | |
may miss its target of starting to reduce the national debt by the | :37:17. | :37:22. | |
time of the next election. Gemma Tetlow is from the IFS. Thank you | :37:22. | :37:28. | |
for joining us. Why is this important? It is very important | :37:28. | :37:32. | |
that the UK gets its public finances back into balance over the | :37:32. | :37:36. | |
medium term. At the moment we spend far more than be raised in tax | :37:36. | :37:39. | |
revenue and can't continue with that indefinitely because we would | :37:39. | :37:44. | |
be left with debt rising inexorably. Over the medium term we need to get | :37:44. | :37:47. | |
back to a position where tax revenues are sufficient to cover | :37:47. | :37:52. | |
spending needs. Over the last few months since the Budget, the | :37:52. | :37:56. | |
outlook for economic growth has become somewhat worse than was | :37:56. | :37:59. | |
thought in March and tax revenues are coming in more weekly than the | :37:59. | :38:03. | |
OBR expected in March. If these are permanent rather than temporary, | :38:03. | :38:06. | |
that could mean the Chancellor would need to announce further | :38:06. | :38:11. | |
fiscal austerity, possibly in the next Parliament, to get the public | :38:11. | :38:16. | |
finances back into balance. What sort of figures are you putting on | :38:16. | :38:22. | |
that? If the weakness we have seen over the last six months or so is | :38:22. | :38:31. | |
permanent, and that is one possible scenario, he could require around | :38:31. | :38:37. | |
�23 billion of tax increases and spending cuts to come in by 2017/18. | :38:37. | :38:42. | |
That is a very big figure. Do you say that the Government has not get | :38:42. | :38:45. | |
a credible plan to deal with the public finances, the deterioration | :38:45. | :38:50. | |
of them? Buyers of the March Budget, the Chancellor has set out a plan | :38:50. | :38:55. | |
consistent with meeting both fiscal targets. He has won fiscal mandate | :38:55. | :38:59. | |
requiring up by the end of the forecast to rise in taxes should be | :38:59. | :39:02. | |
sufficient to cover non investment spending after adjusting for | :39:02. | :39:06. | |
temporary ups and downs of the economic cycle. His supplementary | :39:06. | :39:10. | |
target requires that there should be falling as a share of income | :39:10. | :39:17. | |
between 2014/15 and 2015/16. 0 last few months, we have seen it looks | :39:17. | :39:22. | |
like borrowing this year will be higher than forecast in March. That | :39:22. | :39:26. | |
could be sufficient to mean that, without further action, he could | :39:26. | :39:31. | |
miss his supplementary target. However, the supplementary target | :39:31. | :39:36. | |
in itself is not particularly good at insuring public finances are | :39:36. | :39:38. | |
Roma sustainable course in the medium term, so the Chancellor | :39:39. | :39:43. | |
might be better advised to abandon that target rather than employment | :39:43. | :39:47. | |
policy to continue meeting it. I've been joined by the rest of the | :39:47. | :39:50. | |
show by the Labour MP and a Reynolds, Liberal Democrat Stephen | :39:50. | :39:54. | |
Lloyd and the Conservative Crispin Chubb. Welcome to you all, a pretty | :39:54. | :40:03. | |
grim precursor to the auction's the Autumn Statement? The IFS is a | :40:03. | :40:07. | |
respected body but like the rest of us it does not have a crystal ball | :40:07. | :40:12. | |
or know what is in the forecast. But it is clear that we face | :40:12. | :40:15. | |
difficult economic times. The eurozone challenge means export | :40:15. | :40:19. | |
markets are not as good as they could be, so we have to deal with | :40:19. | :40:22. | |
that. But the fundamental that people who lend us money every day | :40:23. | :40:29. | |
will look at is the direction of travel. International creditors are | :40:29. | :40:33. | |
prepared to lend us money at a low rate of interest, meaning the man | :40:33. | :40:36. | |
in the street, the mortgage holder or small businessman, has to pay | :40:36. | :40:41. | |
less in mortgages and loans. By the end of the air, borrowing may be | :40:41. | :40:46. | |
higher than this time last year and the Chancellor should maybe just | :40:46. | :40:50. | |
admit he will miss his target for debt to fall as a share of national | :40:51. | :40:56. | |
income between 2014 and 2015. Should he do that? We have reduced | :40:56. | :41:01. | |
the deficit by a quarter in two years under difficult circumstances. | :41:01. | :41:07. | |
But should he abandon it? Let's see what he says in a week or so. | :41:07. | :41:10. | |
The IFS report says that if the current tax receipts are permanent | :41:10. | :41:14. | |
the chance there will need another �23 billion of tax rises or | :41:14. | :41:20. | |
spending cuts. Which would Labour choose? We are not agreed with the | :41:20. | :41:24. | |
overall debt targets set out, but he is clearly missing his own | :41:24. | :41:27. | |
targets. It is very worrying that the reason they are missing the | :41:27. | :41:33. | |
debt target over the longer term is because the economy is not growing. | :41:33. | :41:37. | |
Successive business organisations have said that the Government need | :41:37. | :41:41. | |
real policies to get the economy back on track. That should be the | :41:41. | :41:46. | |
priority. The IFS says even if there is growth, it is likely to be | :41:46. | :41:50. | |
weak, it would still lead to at least �11 billion worth of by the | :41:50. | :41:55. | |
tax rises or spending cuts. What would you rather Labour went for? | :41:55. | :41:59. | |
If there were to be that rise, we would rather that those with a | :42:00. | :42:03. | |
broader shoulders bear the heaviest burden, but this Government is | :42:03. | :42:07. | |
doing the opposite. The cuts are falling on the lowest and middle- | :42:07. | :42:11. | |
income earners harder than anyone else at the same time as they are | :42:11. | :42:19. | |
giving a tax cut to the millionaires in the country of | :42:19. | :42:22. | |
about �40,000 next year, they are making it harder for pensioners and | :42:22. | :42:27. | |
those on low incomes to make ends meet. The IFS says if you take the | :42:27. | :42:31. | |
amount that needs to be cut it would be equivalent to increasing | :42:31. | :42:37. | |
the main rate of VAT from 20% to 25%. Already standards of living | :42:37. | :42:41. | |
are dropping because of the rise in the cost of living, so why do not | :42:41. | :42:45. | |
think we would advocate that. you agree that at the moment lots | :42:45. | :42:50. | |
of the costs of -- cuts are falling on those who can't afford to pay? | :42:50. | :42:54. | |
It is nonsense. The middle and lower incomes are best protected, | :42:54. | :42:57. | |
more money has been taken from the rich by this Government than the | :42:57. | :43:01. | |
previous. I checked the bond markets when I was coming up this | :43:01. | :43:06. | |
morning. We are the second lowest bond interest rates in the EU after | :43:06. | :43:10. | |
Germany. It is difficult and the IMF conclusions are disappointing, | :43:10. | :43:14. | |
but even their report says there is a worst case and a best-case | :43:14. | :43:17. | |
scenario, we have to see what the numbers are in the next few days. | :43:17. | :43:22. | |
Do you think the policy has been too narrowly focused unsatisfying | :43:22. | :43:26. | |
credit rating agencies? If we did not satisfy the bond markets and | :43:26. | :43:31. | |
credit rating agencies, people would be paying more. If we don't | :43:31. | :43:36. | |
keep interest rates low, we would fall off a cliff, no doubt. Even if | :43:37. | :43:40. | |
the IFS has said the deterioration in public finances may mean that | :43:40. | :43:44. | |
you will have to go into the next election saying there will be | :43:44. | :43:48. | |
austerity to the tune of �23 billion to 20 a team? If that | :43:48. | :43:54. | |
happens, because we have had the worst recession since the late 20s, | :43:54. | :43:58. | |
if that is the reality then so be it. We have a million new jobs, the | :43:58. | :44:04. | |
lowest interest rates, highest employment since 1971. The path is | :44:04. | :44:07. | |
working and the people out there know that. The IMF has said that | :44:07. | :44:11. | |
the reason interest rates are low is primarily because growth | :44:11. | :44:16. | |
expectations are so low. The idea they have created low interest | :44:16. | :44:20. | |
rates is farcical. The OECD also say that unless we are prepared to | :44:20. | :44:25. | |
take our medicine early, we will have to swallow a bigger and harder | :44:25. | :44:28. | |
pill later. The Labour policy is still to borrow more and more and | :44:28. | :44:33. | |
more. You have not learned from your mistakes between 1997 and 2010. | :44:33. | :44:37. | |
We have seen by the failure of this Government that without growth you | :44:37. | :44:44. | |
cannot bring the deficit down anyway. | :44:44. | :44:45. | |
look at the political stories on the radar over the next week. | :44:45. | :44:49. | |
After washing all his own shirts, I'm sure, the Prime Minister faces | :44:49. | :44:53. | |
Commons to report back on the EU summit. And the failure to agree a | :44:54. | :44:57. | |
seven-year budget. On Tuesday a new clause is expected | :44:57. | :45:01. | |
to be introduced into the Crown Court Bill to fulfil the Justice | :45:01. | :45:05. | |
Secretary's promise to give householders the right to deploy a | :45:05. | :45:07. | |
disproportionate force in defending their homes. | :45:07. | :45:12. | |
On Wednesday consultation paper will be launched to give a | :45:12. | :45:15. | |
framework about introducing a minimum unit price for alcohol. | :45:15. | :45:20. | |
On Thursday, Lord Leveson finally publishes his report on the role of | :45:20. | :45:22. | |
the press and the police in the phone hacking scandal. | :45:22. | :45:27. | |
And on Saturday there is the final of I'm A Celebrity, Get Me Out Of | :45:27. | :45:29. | |
Here, but we have just learned that Nadine Dorries, the MP, who was | :45:29. | :45:33. | |
voted off first, has already packed her bikini and arrived back at | :45:33. | :45:43. | |
:45:43. | :45:44. | ||
Heathrow, no doubt to be welcomed We can speak now to Isabel Hardman | :45:44. | :45:48. | |
from the Spectator, and Kevin Maguire, from the Daily Mirror. | :45:48. | :45:53. | |
Kevin Maguire, David Cameron is in a tight spot, as everybody | :45:53. | :45:56. | |
positions themselves, before Lord Leveson publishes his | :45:56. | :46:02. | |
recommendations, and he has said he will accept those proposals? Yes, | :46:02. | :46:05. | |
he is certainly in a tight spot, caught between a rock and a hard | :46:06. | :46:10. | |
place. A sizable proportion of his party is against any statutory | :46:10. | :46:13. | |
regulation of newspapers. Michael Gove and William Hague has spoken | :46:13. | :46:18. | |
out publicly, and David Cameron has got Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg on | :46:18. | :46:22. | |
the other side of the argument, seeming to want to embrace whatever | :46:22. | :46:25. | |
Leveson comes up with, so it is really difficult for the Prime | :46:25. | :46:29. | |
Minister. The only set that inquiry up because he was in a very | :46:29. | :46:33. | |
difficult position, with Andy Coulson having been his press | :46:33. | :46:40. | |
secretary. But he must regret creating the hearing now. What can | :46:40. | :46:44. | |
David Cameron do on this? I think this is the most difficult issue | :46:44. | :46:48. | |
which David Cameron is facing at the moment. It does not denigrate | :46:48. | :46:52. | |
the other issues, it just shows how difficult Leveson is. The main | :46:52. | :46:58. | |
problem is that his party is split. There is actually 70 MPs who are in | :46:58. | :47:02. | |
favour of some kind of independent regulation. They would join Labour- | :47:02. | :47:06. | |
run the Lib Dems in any vote. So, it could be extremely difficult for | :47:06. | :47:11. | |
him if the House votes in favour of statutory regulation. I suppose the | :47:11. | :47:16. | |
option for him defeat to maybe backed the proposals from Lord Hunt, | :47:16. | :47:21. | |
the chairman of the PCC, a kind of beefed-up self-regulation, with | :47:21. | :47:24. | |
powers to investigate some of the areas which the PCC did not have | :47:24. | :47:28. | |
before. So, he could go for that, with the threat of statutory | :47:28. | :47:32. | |
regulation hanging over the newspapers if they do not clean up | :47:32. | :47:37. | |
their act. What do you say to that, Kevin Maguire? This idea that the | :47:37. | :47:40. | |
papers cannot be trusted, or the industry cannot be trusted to | :47:40. | :47:45. | |
regulate itself, however much it protests otherwise, and actually, | :47:45. | :47:49. | |
the problem with the Press Complaints Commission was that it | :47:49. | :47:54. | |
and therefore did not have to abide by the code? Yes, Richard Desmond | :47:54. | :47:58. | |
did not sign up to it. As an investigator with body, it failed | :47:58. | :48:02. | |
abysmally, when it did not really look into what happened at News | :48:02. | :48:07. | |
International, and phone hacking. You get even newspapers like The | :48:08. | :48:10. | |
Guardian and the Independent, which have been exposing the phone | :48:10. | :48:14. | |
hacking, warning against a statutory control, because it is | :48:14. | :48:18. | |
the thin end of a big wedge, but there is a huge argument to be had, | :48:18. | :48:21. | |
and David Cameron knows it will be tricky for him. We are told he will | :48:21. | :48:26. | |
make a statement to the House of Commons at about 2:30pm on Thursday, | :48:26. | :48:31. | |
after the Leveson report is published. You cannot keep playing | :48:31. | :48:35. | |
for time. Harriet Harman, the Labour Deputy Leader, is looking | :48:35. | :48:40. | |
for statutory regulation. She has spoken about tabling an amendment | :48:40. | :48:43. | |
to the communications bill as a way of forcing the issue. It will end | :48:43. | :48:53. | |
up as one hell of a political fight. On her -- on a fight of the | :48:53. | :48:59. | |
difficult nature, Nadine Dorries, who has arrived back at Heathrow. | :48:59. | :49:02. | |
think the problem for Nadine Dorries, and for the leadership, is | :49:02. | :49:05. | |
that there is a lot of personal tension between Nadine Dorries and | :49:05. | :49:09. | |
Cameron. Even though there could be a very good case for disciplining | :49:09. | :49:12. | |
her, in the same way that you discipline a naughty child in a | :49:13. | :49:16. | |
class to stop the rest of the children going back, actually, they | :49:16. | :49:20. | |
need to be very careful. This could look like a personal backlash from | :49:20. | :49:24. | |
Cameron. Is that not the point? You have got to be pretty sensitive, | :49:24. | :49:28. | |
because it could backfire quite badly, couldn't it, on the | :49:28. | :49:32. | |
leadership, not just because of the history which but -- which Isabel | :49:32. | :49:37. | |
Hardman is talking about, but also, in not wanting to be inconsistent | :49:37. | :49:42. | |
in the way you deal with naughty MPs? Absolutely, I'm sure the Home | :49:42. | :49:46. | |
Secretary, to Reyes a May, will be sacked for allowing her back into | :49:46. | :49:50. | |
the country, and not having the border staff turn her away! Some | :49:50. | :49:55. | |
MPs get longer to go on business trips, to do legal cases, people | :49:55. | :50:00. | |
who are lawyers and so on. She will make that case very hard. If she is | :50:00. | :50:04. | |
going to be disciplined, I suspect Downing Street will wanted to be | :50:04. | :50:07. | |
done by her local party in Bedfordshire. If she is going to be | :50:07. | :50:12. | |
kicked out of parliament, she will want -- they will want them to | :50:12. | :50:19. | |
disown her. But you could not even discussed the possibility of her | :50:19. | :50:27. | |
tottering off to UKIP. What do you think Nadine Dorries will do when | :50:27. | :50:32. | |
she gets back? She has already started tweeting a list of MPs who | :50:32. | :50:37. | |
have spend more time away from the Commons then she has, to go on I'm | :50:37. | :50:40. | |
A Celebrity, Get Me Out Of Here!. I think we will probably see lots of | :50:40. | :50:43. | |
newspaper and television interviews, and she has already given a radio | :50:43. | :50:48. | |
interview about why she went on the programme. I think if they come | :50:48. | :50:52. | |
down to her than her -- too hard on her, from the point of view of the | :50:52. | :50:56. | |
leadership, it could become quite unpleasant. She has got friends in | :50:56. | :50:59. | |
Parliament who could support her and who could say some | :50:59. | :51:03. | |
uncomfortable things for Guess the Year. Thank you both of you. We | :51:04. | :51:12. | |
will be feeling that this afternoon. -- uncomfortable things for Cameron. | :51:12. | :51:16. | |
This is going to be very difficult for Jaffa. Having spent vast sums | :51:16. | :51:19. | |
of public money on the Leveson Inquiry, surely the Prime Minister | :51:20. | :51:23. | |
has got to accept the recommendations? Let's see what he | :51:23. | :51:26. | |
says. There have been suggestions that it will be a monster report, | :51:26. | :51:30. | |
which will take quite a bit of reading. But on that point, having | :51:30. | :51:35. | |
set it up, having responded to questions that unless it is bonkers, | :51:35. | :51:38. | |
he will accept those recommendations, does he not have | :51:38. | :51:42. | |
to do exactly that? Well, he has to read it and then make a decision. | :51:42. | :51:46. | |
He set up the inquiry and he will look at its conclusions. My | :51:46. | :51:50. | |
personal view is that I am uncomfortable with any form of | :51:50. | :51:53. | |
statutory regulation. We have not had that in this country for the | :51:53. | :51:58. | |
press for about 300 years. It seems to me, what we really need to do is | :51:58. | :52:03. | |
to beef up the PCC, which everybody accepts has failed. We need to give | :52:03. | :52:07. | |
it powers to fine, which is what Lord Hunt recommended. It needs to | :52:08. | :52:13. | |
be able to impose real penalties on newspapers.. Is that really going | :52:13. | :52:16. | |
to do it? We have heard time and time again, when you look at the | :52:16. | :52:20. | |
stories, like the McCann family, or Christopher Jefferies, is this | :52:21. | :52:24. | |
really going to prevent that happening again? No, I do not think | :52:24. | :52:27. | |
it will make the slightest bit of difference. It is interesting about | :52:27. | :52:31. | |
the statutory regulation. The press have gone crazy about it, loss of | :52:32. | :52:36. | |
freedom and all of this. In Denmark, they have an independent regulatory | :52:36. | :52:40. | |
framework, and it works perfectly well, and nobody has told me that | :52:40. | :52:43. | |
Denmark has been taken over by the politicians. The politicians are | :52:43. | :52:48. | |
not the issue. The problem is that sections of the press have behaved | :52:48. | :52:52. | |
disgracefully. Nearly Dowling, the John Obi Mikel family, the list is | :52:52. | :52:55. | |
endless. It will keep going on unless there is some proper, | :52:56. | :53:05. | |
:53:06. | :53:19. | ||
independent regulation. -- Milly Dowler in, -- Milly Dowling and the | :53:19. | :53:27. | |
McCann family. There are already laws about hacking, about driving | :53:27. | :53:31. | |
public officials, but that is why senior journalists now find | :53:31. | :53:34. | |
themselves inside police stations more often than they would like. I | :53:34. | :53:37. | |
do not think going down the route of regulating the press, inhibiting | :53:37. | :53:41. | |
its freedom to do proper, investigative journalism, which | :53:41. | :53:47. | |
could be the outcome... This is not what we want. You could put in a | :53:47. | :53:51. | |
particular cover, which says, investigative journalism in the | :53:51. | :53:54. | |
public interest should be allowed under any circumstances. It is very | :53:54. | :53:58. | |
important that we really look closely at what the people opposing | :53:58. | :54:01. | |
this are the same, and what the press are saying. There is no | :54:01. | :54:05. | |
reason we cannot have an independent regulatory framework, | :54:05. | :54:09. | |
with a particular clause written in, which says, if it is for the good | :54:09. | :54:12. | |
of the nation or of the public, then it can be done. It is terribly | :54:12. | :54:17. | |
important. Do you agree that if there is some kind of statutory | :54:17. | :54:22. | |
regulation, there is a risk that content could be interfered with, | :54:22. | :54:28. | |
that there will be that pressure on newspapers? Not necessary. If you | :54:28. | :54:32. | |
have an independent regulator, like you have in many other professions | :54:32. | :54:36. | |
- lawyers, doctors - that does not mean that there will be political | :54:36. | :54:40. | |
interference. I think the truth is that the Press Complaints | :54:40. | :54:45. | |
Commission has failed spectacularly to stop the hacking scandal, to | :54:45. | :54:48. | |
prevent the media intrusion which we still see in some people's lives. | :54:48. | :54:53. | |
So, we need a much better system, which is mandatory and independent. | :54:53. | :54:57. | |
It is hard to see how we would have that without some kind of statutory | :54:57. | :55:01. | |
underpinning. So Labour's position is too wholeheartedly accept the | :55:01. | :55:08. | |
Leveson recommendations, if he proposes an statutory underpinning? | :55:08. | :55:12. | |
Yes, and if his proposals, as Ed Miliband has said in The Guardian | :55:12. | :55:21. | |
today, are reasonable and proportion. -- proportionate. If | :55:21. | :55:27. | |
that is the case, then, yes, we want to work on a cross-party basis. | :55:27. | :55:31. | |
We do not want this to be a political issue. But you have got | :55:31. | :55:36. | |
Michael Gove, Eric Pickles and others are saying, they must not be | :55:36. | :55:41. | |
any statutory regulation of the press. We will only have cross- | :55:41. | :55:44. | |
party agreement if we are on the same lines. You cannot set up an | :55:44. | :55:48. | |
inquiry like this and then ignore its recommendations. There is | :55:48. | :55:51. | |
cross-party agreement that regulation may be the wrong way to | :55:51. | :55:56. | |
go. David Blunkett is leading up to 50 members of parliament across the | :55:56. | :56:04. | |
divide in Westminster, saying that regulation is not the way to go. | :56:04. | :56:08. | |
They are saying that the proposals of Lord black and Lord Hunt are the | :56:08. | :56:13. | |
best way to go. What about regional media, do you think they will be | :56:13. | :56:18. | |
affected? I do not think they should be. The newspaper in the | :56:18. | :56:21. | |
West Midlands did not do anything wrong. They did not have anything | :56:21. | :56:24. | |
to do with giving the police backhanders. West Midlands police | :56:24. | :56:28. | |
did not doing anything wrong. -- did not do anything wrong. These | :56:28. | :56:31. | |
are lessons which need to be learned by the national press, and | :56:31. | :56:38. | |
it has nothing to do with the regional press. Are you pleased | :56:38. | :56:41. | |
that Nadine Dorries is back from the jungle? I will not be rushing | :56:41. | :56:45. | |
to Heathrow to pick up her bags, because she is capable of doing | :56:45. | :56:49. | |
that by herself. She is a force of nature. She certainly is, by going | :56:49. | :56:53. | |
to the jungle. She did not last that long, but was it a good idea | :56:53. | :56:58. | |
for her to go? I would not have done it myself, but as Kevin said, | :56:59. | :57:04. | |
I agree with the Daily Mirror on this issue, it is a matter for her | :57:04. | :57:07. | |
local association to decide what should be done. Should she not have | :57:07. | :57:11. | |
gone? I would not have gone and I do not think she should have gone. | :57:11. | :57:15. | |
It is a matter for her local association to decide the best of | :57:15. | :57:20. | |
the action. Lots of MPs go on lovely trips to the Maldives, paid | :57:20. | :57:23. | |
for by the taxpayer - what is wrong with this? It is an absolute | :57:23. | :57:28. | |
disgrace. She showed contempt for her constituents. And I would say | :57:28. | :57:33. | |
that whatever party she was from. But Kevin is right that the Prime | :57:33. | :57:38. | |
Minister probably needs this like a hole in the head, so I do have | :57:38. | :57:42. | |
sympathy for David Cameron. But her behaviour was disgraceful. Was it, | :57:42. | :57:47. | |
really? What about the idea that she would be broadcasting to people | :57:47. | :57:53. | |
who would never be interested in politics? What about the people who | :57:53. | :57:59. | |
elected her? This was not a visit in which she was doing any politics | :57:59. | :58:03. | |
or representing her constituents in any way. She was on some celebrity | :58:03. | :58:07. | |
programme which had nothing to do with politics, nothing to do with | :58:07. | :58:10. | |
representing her constituency. Two of her neighbouring MPs had to take | :58:10. | :58:15. | |
her surgeries for her. And now she is bragging that she was not a way | :58:15. | :58:19. | |
that long, but it is only because she was kicked off early. It is | :58:19. | :58:22. | |
ridiculous. She will have made lots of your colleagues very angry, I | :58:22. | :58:27. | |
think. MPs across the board think this is not the way for MPs to | :58:27. | :58:34. | |
behave. She did get permission from the then Chief Whip. But I gather | :58:34. | :58:44. | |
:58:44. | :58:45. |