04/12/2012 Daily Politics


04/12/2012

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Afternoon, folks, welcome to the Daily Politics. Whatever you're up

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to: Doing the dishes, hanging out the washing, or even lying down

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trying to recover from morning sickness, this is what we've got

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today. The man with the trickiest maths problem in Britain. George

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Osborne's got to balance the Budget, cut the deficit, and somehow

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promote economic growth. So what are his chances? Newspaper editors

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We were hear from someone who has come hotfoot from the Treasury.

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And we will find out why sports stars like Usain Bolt are reluctant

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to compete in Great Britain. Do we treat people who sell things

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for her living as a national joke? Kate Walsh says things must change.

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All that in the next hour. With us is the editor of the Conservative

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Home website, regularly described as one of the most influential

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Tories outside of the Cabinet. But first: Tomorrow's Autumn Statement.

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Six months ago, George Osborne had a terrible time with the Budget.

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The word omnishambles ended up attached with pretty much

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everything to do with it. This time at a Royal bump has kicked a load

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of headlines about big companies not paying taxes of of the front

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:02:21.:02:22.

page. So it is the Chancellor in One of the things, a week ago, he

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announced the new governor of the Bank of England, which he managed

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to keep secret. They were very disappointed with how everything

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leaked in advance of the Budget. There was a dummy run last week

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with the Bank of England announcement. We have had some

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briefing, but not too much. I don't know whether we will have any

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surprises. George Osborne likes delivering surprises. The maths is

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so difficult, he has little money to play with. He will miss his own

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self imposed target that debt will be falling as a proportion of the

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economy by 2016. What was worse, setting the target, or missing it?

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He would have preferred the royal baby news to be announced tomorrow.

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This will not be a good news day for the coalition. It is pretty

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clear if he doesn't find some way of bending the money coming from

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the Bank of England, he will miss those targets. It won't be easy.

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How damaging it isn't politically to miss that target, he made a big

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thing about debt falling and they were going to fix the debt crisis.

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One is the economic environment which is much worse than we thought.

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He will be able to say it almost every country in Europe and the

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world is struggling to meet its targets. Barack Obama has just been

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re-elected having missed almost every target he set when he was

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first elected four years ago. will blame everyone else? Barack

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Obama could not hit employment targets because of the

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deterioration in the international situation. Ed Balls will try not to

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let the Chancellor get away with it. What are you thinking George

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Osborne should do, bearing in mind the coalition will borrow more next

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year than Labour would be borrowing under the Alistair Darling plan.

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How do you explain a deficit reduction as tragic end up with the

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coalition spending more than Labour, borrowing more than Labour? What I

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think is the failure, from the beginning, there should have been

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much more on growth, much more about getting rid of some of the

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green policies which have increased energy costs for manufacturers,

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allowing banks to build up capital more slowly to lend to small

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businesses. I would not have had the tax rises, that George Osborne

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has had. He has not had the growth agenda that would have meant he

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would have tax revenues of. It's time for our daily quiz. Four weeks

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ago today, President Barack Obama was re-elected President of the

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United States. Hard to believe it, but in some states they are still

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actually counting the votes! But today's question is this: If Barack

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Obama came first, and Mitt Romney came second, which famous actress

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is currently coming sixth with just over 60,000 votes?

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A) Susan Sarandon? B) Madonna?

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C) Roseanne Barr? Or d) Jane Fonda?

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At the end of the show, Tim will give us the correct answer.

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The big political event of the week, of course, is tomorrow's Autumn

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Statement from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, George Osborne. The

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Chancellor has quite a job on his hands. He admitted at the weekend

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that weaker growth and lower tax receipts means austerity will

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continue until 2018 at least. So, what immediate problems is he

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grappling with? For a start, the deficit for 2013-14 is expected to

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total some �126 billion, �7 billion more than the Government expected

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back in March. This is partly as a result of weaker than expected

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economic growth. Just this week, the British Chambers of Commerce

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said that, instead of growing by 2.2% in 2014, the British economy

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might only grow by 1.8%. As a result, the Chancellor has little

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money to spend. And we learned today that he will ask most

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government departments to cut spending even further over the next

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two years. Things don't look any rosier on the High Street either,

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with month-on-month retail sales in October down 0.8%. Tax receipts

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have been lower than expected too. As a result, George Osborne will

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come under considerable pressure to close tax loopholes, with one

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report today saying that a VAT loophole on companies costs us all

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�10 billion a year, or more than the cost of the Olympic Games. The

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Chancellor will also be expected to do something to help squeezed

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family budgets. Today, in a survey of what we're spending our money on,

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the Office of National Statistics said our personal finances are

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being pressured like never before, with the average household spending

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�483.60 a week in 2011, compared The survey found transport was the

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greatest cost, with the average family spending �65.70 a week

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getting from A to B. We're also spending �54.80 a week on food,

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which costs 27% more today than at Earlier, I spoke to Giles

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Horsefield from the Office of National Statistic, and asked him

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to explain what his report has found about the pressures on

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household spending. We have seen from our figures which

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show the average household expenditure quickly in 2011 has

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come through as being higher than 2010. Increases in transport, the

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biggest category. Within that category, people are spending more

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on diesel and petrol, a significant increase from �22 a week up to �25.

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You mentioned food, expenditure has gone up a little bit, �52 in 2010,

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up to �55 in 2011. Housing, an increase in �3. We have seen

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decreases in other categories. In expenditure on clothing and

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footwear which has gone down �1.70. And also in some types of household

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goods and services, significantly for furniture, down �3. Down to �14.

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Recreation and culture has been interesting, that has held steady,

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for audio-visual equipment. Also, games, newspapers and books. An

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interesting increase in expenditure on leisure classes, cinema and

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theatre, an increase from �18 up to �20 a week. If the decrease is in

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clothing and household goods which are not essential, does it indicate

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people have less money to spend on things that aren't completely

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necessary like food and fuel? it is difficult to say but

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increases have been in those categories where expenditure can be

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:10:08.:10:08.

considered except -- essential. The decreases have been in items were

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you might expenditure to be put off. Like furniture, clothing. There are

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quirky results, people are willing to spend more on going out, to the

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theatre and sporting events. A mixed picture. With us now are

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three MPs who will be watching tomorrow's Autumn Statement very

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closely indeed. Conservative, Harriet Baldwin. Labour's Teresa

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Pearce. And the Liberal Democrat, Lorely Burt.

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Welcome to all you. Generally, the Chancellor will not meet his

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targets for 2016. Should he now has he is going to announce those

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targets. Or should hear now has more spending cuts and tax rises to

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meet it? What I will be looking for are

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measures to help families with the cost of living. What should he do,

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politically it is an important statement? Well, we have got to

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focus on what is in a family pocket today. Things like making sure the

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cost of fuel is kept under control. Things like council-tax been frozen

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for another here. Lifting people are from low-income us out of

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income tax. This will do an awful lot to help sustain the rate of

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growth. I am sceptical you can forecast what will happen in 2014.

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We have to focus on what is happening day-to-day in people's

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pockets and jobs. Economic forecasts are worse, austerity is

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set to last beyond 2015, why should we trust George Osborne? I just

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think we do not know that. We know that there are going to be more

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cuts and possibly tax rises. The economic forecast from all of the

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think-tanks will be worse and growth weaker. We know what the

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forecasters are saying. We have to trust the Chancellor to focus on

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keeping interest rates down, so mortgage rates are low so people

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can spend more. Keeping the cost of living down, a growth strategy the

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Chancellor can adopt tomorrow. can we keep the cost of living

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down? We are on a very difficult and rocky road, more difficult than

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we imagined when the first to Cover from the biggest debt assist --

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took over from the biggest deficit. We have to invest in capital

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projects which will generate wealth. Why did the government cut all of

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those projects, school building programmes, in 2010? The government

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did a full review of the cost of some of these schools, they were

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spending �6 million on a standard school, that amount has been

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brought down considerably. We have committed to infrastructure

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spending. In my constituency, on flood defences. I want more of that.

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Two years after you cut many of those to jobs. We heard today you

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will have �5 billion released to be spent on capital projects. Why did

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you cut all of those jobs that were ready to go in 2010? I am not sure

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I recognise the picture you are painting. We cut buildings calls,

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but it was a cost in effective way. We put in �4 billion into new

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schools. A new announcement today about more investment into schools

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which will make a big difference. You are going to have to make

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further cuts. How can those other depend at -- departments there more

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cuts to ring-fence education and international development and

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health? I think they should be doing that. I am delighted that, in

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most departments, they have grasped the nettle, and they have made

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their targets for making savings. If it was a choice between a

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Whitehall department having less to spend, and releasing money for

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capital projects to generate wealth, we need to do that as well. We will

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come back to whether we should be ring-fencing departments. Labour

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has accused the coalition of blaming the eurozone for the fact

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there has been very little growth. Under Labour's plans, and the

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suggestions you put forward for cutting VAT, how much growth would

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:15:35.:15:40.

Some growth is better than none. The medicine has not worked so we

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even need to change the medicine or the doctored or both. Do you think

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there would have been significant improvement in the growth figures?

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If we had not cut the amount of public spending than we did, yes.

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Public Department spent in the private sector. Lots of private

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:16:11.:16:12.

companies lost their investment... This is a fantasy! One at a time.

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Labour proposed every single spending cut we have put forward.

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Labour have put us in a position, if they had followed their plans by

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opposing every spending cut, of its debt crisis. His is a myth to say

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that debt is falling. But the interest rate has been kept very

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low because of the Bob le Brocq my constituents cannot get a mortgage

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so that does not matter! You can now get a two your mortgage

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for under 2%. These are as are the sorts of things you can do to keep

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spending under control and stop family budgets from rising. This is

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Labour all-over. They have not articulated any plan. Double

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recession! They say, and not yet. They don't say how far and how fast.

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If we had carried on with Labour's happy meandering we would be in the

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same situation now as Spain and Greece. That is ridiculous. It is

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not! George Osborne said in every Budget that if we did not do what

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he said, we would be like Greece. We would be! That is ridiculous.

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George Osborne right to continue on this path? You said there should

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not have been tax rises. The Institute for Fiscal Studies said

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there will be a �22 billion hole in the fiscal envelope. How should he

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feel that? The most important thing, if we had not cut the deficit

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reduction plan, we would not have low interest rates and they are the

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most important thing that business and want. We need to start with

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that. The idea is that there is an alternative to this central

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strategy is nonsense. George Osborne needs to think of every

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single way to get the economy going. Capital and infrastructure is

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incredibly important. We should cancel a lot of these very

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expensive green policies that are adding to the burden of

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manufacturing industry. One of the reasons American growth has picked

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up is because of the shale gas revolution. That is one of the

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things I will be looking for from the Chancellor tomorrow's. Do you

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think that would have made such a big difference? He every job

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matters at the moment. Paying taxes matters at the moment. We need lots

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of things like that but that is the kind of policy we need in a

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statement. The public are not behind it. There is the money. We

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have just launched the Green Investment Bank. There are

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thousands and thousands of jobs waiting to go all the energy

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strategy. But they will be subsidised and we cannot afford

:19:08.:19:13.

that. We need to bring energy costs down. It is bringing jobs. The

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announcement today will talk about the energy mix and acknowledge the

:19:17.:19:20.

fact that we need different types of energy in order to keep the

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lights on. The greenest government ever? If we were going to make a

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difference to climate change, perhaps it would be worthwhile but

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we are not. China and India continued to expand their climate

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footprint. All we are doing is hurting jobs in this country by

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pursuing the Liberal green policy. We need to have Dowsett --

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diversification in terms of energy sources. But we also should not

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abandon solar energy, wind power in particular, where it makes sense in

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terms of diversification of the UK and making it more resilient in

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terms of end it is security. hear the word of fairness endlessly

:20:06.:20:12.

bandied about and lots of discussion about a benefits freeze.

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Should pensioners continue to be excluded from any benefit cuts and

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freeze? The key thing about pensioners is they no longer have

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the option of going out and working, so they don't have that choice is

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that we of working age population have in terms of changing our jobs

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and working more hours that could potentially improved income. That

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is why pensioners are treated in a special way. So you think they

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should be left alone as David Cameron has pledged? The Prime

:20:45.:20:52.

Minister has a made that clear. you agree with that? It was in our

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manifestos. I personally have said in the past that if you are a

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higher rate pensioner and you are getting the winter fuel allowance,

:20:59.:21:05.

we ought to look at that, but the price Minister has made that clear.

:21:05.:21:08.

Are you happy with the fact that benefits will be hit to try to help

:21:08.:21:13.

pay for the fiscal Blackhall? What do you want to see on the other

:21:13.:21:20.

side? -- fiscal black hole? Will this help to balance out pfennigs?

:21:20.:21:27.

It is fair to raise the threshold. -- balance out fairness? Is it

:21:27.:21:34.

enough? Probably not. There will be a raft of measures. There seems to

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be one group of individuals who seem to be getting hit now from

:21:39.:21:43.

cuts in different types of areas. I would not want to see them hit any

:21:43.:21:50.

more. We should be more spread out in our spreading the pain between

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different groups. We really want to see the highest earners paying

:21:55.:22:01.

their fair share a little bit more, not the savings on the backs of the

:22:01.:22:06.

poor. More tax increases there. Nick Clegg did something fairly

:22:06.:22:12.

unusual in his response to Leveson and gave a different response.

:22:12.:22:16.

Would you like him to do something similar and say the bits he does

:22:17.:22:23.

like and the bits he doesn't in the Autumn Statement? No. Why not? You

:22:23.:22:27.

don't agree on quite basic things within the Autumn Statement, like

:22:27.:22:34.

welfare. Two different parties came together in a time of real economic

:22:34.:22:37.

difficulty and we are pulling together and pulling this country

:22:37.:22:42.

out of the economic mire that we were left in by the previous

:22:43.:22:46.

government. Obviously they are going to be points of conflict and

:22:46.:22:50.

tension and you will see when the Budget comes out which bits when

:22:50.:22:58.

Lib Dem bits. Some bits may not be in there. Thank you very much.

:22:58.:23:01.

Walk down any high street and the pavements are packed with people

:23:01.:23:05.

out Christmas shopping. And if you are in sales, it is the busiest

:23:05.:23:10.

time of the year. But the millions of people who spend their lives

:23:10.:23:13.

selling goods and services to us are a bit of a forgotten profession

:23:13.:23:16.

according to Kate Walsh - who you may remember from BBC One's

:23:16.:23:20.

programme The Apprentice a couple of years ago. She wants that to

:23:20.:23:30.
:23:30.:23:39.

I am releasing my inner rock As a former finalist on The

:23:39.:23:42.

Apprentice, I know the value of sales skills and how they can help

:23:42.:23:47.

to get you a head, but I bet when you think of the sales person you

:23:47.:23:57.
:23:57.:24:05.

think of a dodgy car salesman. We What size? 13 amps.

:24:05.:24:10.

Yet sales is vital for the development of the economy. How

:24:11.:24:20.
:24:21.:24:23.

important our scales -- sales 1.2 5 million sales people in the

:24:23.:24:30.

UK, that is �1.1 million worth of goods that they sell per person on

:24:30.:24:40.
:24:40.:24:46.

average. So it is about time to My belief is that the sales

:24:46.:24:50.

function is the lifeblood of any business and up until now, it has

:24:50.:24:55.

not been a very well respected profession. It has not even been

:24:55.:25:01.

presented to young people as a job prospect. Despite gaining a first-

:25:01.:25:05.

class honours business degree, the first mention of developing any

:25:05.:25:09.

sales skills was when I was lucky enough to secure a place on a

:25:09.:25:13.

graduate training scheme. I have had the opportunity to deliver a

:25:13.:25:19.

number of enterprise days at schools like this one. There are

:25:19.:25:24.

only three goals out of 30 business studies students at this school in

:25:25.:25:30.

Hull -- three girls. We invited girls from other schools. The

:25:30.:25:35.

government needs to start doing more. Sales has been the Cinderella

:25:35.:25:41.

profession for wait too long. I completely disagree with Michael

:25:41.:25:47.

Gove's decision to abolish work- related training. It was my first

:25:47.:25:51.

work experience training at 15 that gave me that people skills and

:25:51.:25:56.

confidence to succeed. With the apprenticeship scheme is available,

:25:56.:26:02.

sales are drastically and represented. -- under-represented.

:26:02.:26:07.

If we are to get the UK back onto growth, we need to get work

:26:07.:26:11.

experience back on the curriculum, we need to create apprenticeship

:26:11.:26:15.

schemes and help for the sales superstars of tomorrow's.

:26:15.:26:17.

And Kate Walsh is here now. Alongside the Shadow Business

:26:17.:26:23.

Minister, Toby Perkins. Welcome. Do you still feel that sales and

:26:23.:26:28.

people who sell for a living have such a bad reputation? There is

:26:28.:26:33.

still that perception out there. It was ten years ago that I graduated

:26:33.:26:37.

but I know a lot of people that have studied business studies

:26:37.:26:41.

lately and there must be a reason that it is just not mentioned as

:26:41.:26:46.

part of so many business courses. Is that because you can't teach it

:26:46.:26:52.

in an academic framework? This is the work that the Labour Party is

:26:52.:26:59.

doing, and that is so important. It is not all about exams. It is about

:26:59.:27:03.

vocational training, developing presentation skills and listening

:27:03.:27:08.

skills. Anything from going to the interview in the first place to any

:27:08.:27:12.

job function that you are going to do, you can become a better sales

:27:12.:27:17.

person but it is more vocational they are academic. So is it

:27:17.:27:19.

something that the companies should do rather than asking the

:27:20.:27:25.

government? I think that is too late! It should not just be up to

:27:25.:27:29.

accompany, especially small businesses. They have not got the

:27:29.:27:33.

resources to send people on this negotiation and sales training

:27:33.:27:37.

courses that can equip their employees to compete in what is a

:27:37.:27:42.

very tough market place. So Poppins, I believe it needs to start in

:27:42.:27:50.

education and not at university, in school -- so no. We agree. We are

:27:50.:27:55.

grateful Kate Walsh is heading up this work. We recognise that sales

:27:55.:28:00.

is that the heart of the economic recovery. We need to get more young

:28:00.:28:05.

people to aspire to a career in sales. Sales is incredibly

:28:05.:28:10.

meritocratic. You can start at 16 in a call centre and N-Dubz selling

:28:10.:28:15.

aeroplanes to the Saudi government. -- and you can end up selling. It

:28:15.:28:21.

is also one of those things people do who have not necessarily had

:28:21.:28:27.

academics at excess. But do you need qualifications? Many people do

:28:28.:28:34.

recognise the power of sales. Do you need qualifications for it?

:28:34.:28:38.

That is an interesting point. In the business studies AS-level

:28:38.:28:43.

syllabuses, there of 36 mentions of the word production, 37 of

:28:43.:28:49.

marketing, and one mention of sales. We have no academic respect for it.

:28:49.:28:55.

As a result, most people you speak to who have been successful in

:28:55.:28:59.

sales fell into its. You said the government had withdrawn work-

:28:59.:29:05.

related training. What is that? can only talk about my perceptions.

:29:05.:29:10.

I go into schools to deliver enterprise days, and I go into a

:29:10.:29:13.

mix of schools, and it seems that the schools are left to their own

:29:13.:29:17.

devices about whether they offer their students' work experience

:29:17.:29:22.

placements. Sometimes it is up to the parents who might not be

:29:22.:29:28.

equipped to help them do that. not know about that scheme. One of

:29:29.:29:34.

the things the government is doing that is incredibly important for

:29:34.:29:38.

sales is our relationship with overseas, selling British goods to

:29:38.:29:41.

overseas people, and one of the things the government is doing is

:29:41.:29:46.

trying to restore modern languages at the heart of the curriculum.

:29:46.:29:50.

Although a lot of universities are getting rid of those sort of

:29:50.:29:55.

courses because there is not the demand. But in the court he

:29:55.:30:01.

Baccalaureate, but we are trying to restore the status of modern

:30:01.:30:05.

languages. The general principle is that we should not focus just on

:30:05.:30:11.

academic qualifications. We should be taking other up softer skills

:30:12.:30:17.

seriously and I am sympathetic to what has been said. The this

:30:17.:30:21.

government has gone on about championing small businesses

:30:21.:30:24.

endlessly. Why doesn't the government commit more money

:30:24.:30:28.

specifically for this sort of training? A huge amount of extra

:30:28.:30:33.

money is going to apprenticeships. How much should sales be a big a

:30:33.:30:38.

part of those? For Vocational qualifications, the government is

:30:38.:30:41.

incredibly serious, despite the austerity we have been talking

:30:41.:30:51.

about. It is pretty much more money Do you think The Apprentice helps

:30:51.:30:58.

the image of a selling? Unfortunately, we do live in a

:30:58.:31:04.

celebrity culture, kids watch TV. I use The Apprentice as a vehicle

:31:04.:31:08.

when I go into schools, it is something they can relate to, the

:31:08.:31:16.

kids. It encourages healthy competition. Then again, we love

:31:16.:31:22.

watching The Apprentice when things go terribly wrong. You can take it

:31:22.:31:28.

in its entirety, let us watch an episode, this is a good example of

:31:28.:31:34.

selling, this is a bad example. is great to watch it on TV, great

:31:34.:31:40.

entertainment, but does it take away from making it a serious

:31:40.:31:50.
:31:50.:31:53.

profession? Ultimately, there was a job on offer, so it wasn't

:31:53.:32:00.

something where it had no outcome. The prize was a job with Lord Sugar.

:32:00.:32:06.

I think it is unfortunate so many of our students want to be

:32:06.:32:14.

celebrities. But I think The Apprentice was positive. There have

:32:14.:32:19.

been high profile cases of miss selling. Some people will have the

:32:19.:32:25.

experience of, for example, being this old life insurance. For that

:32:25.:32:33.

reason, we want to focus on the professional aspect of selling. It

:32:33.:32:39.

is in the best interest of sales, to show examples where it did not

:32:39.:32:49.
:32:49.:32:51.

go right, but it isn't typical. The vast majority of people will be

:32:51.:32:56.

entering an honourable profession. Newspaper editors have been meeting

:32:56.:32:59.

the Prime Minister in Downing Street this morning, trying to

:32:59.:33:03.

persuade him he doesn't need to introduce new laws to make them put

:33:03.:33:07.

their House in order. We'll hear from one of them in just a moment.

:33:07.:33:11.

But first, let's get a flavour of the mood of the House of Commons

:33:11.:33:19.

when MPs debated all this yesterday. We all agree the suffering of the

:33:19.:33:24.

victims and their families cannot be allowed to happen again. And we

:33:24.:33:31.

all agree that this do to us quote is not an option. -- status quo. It

:33:31.:33:36.

is our responsibility whatever is put in place is effective. This is

:33:36.:33:42.

common ground. Let us put to one side politics and let us turn our

:33:42.:33:47.

focus on the principles. We live in one of the least corrupt societies

:33:47.:33:53.

on earth, we are doing everything possible to avoid statutory

:33:53.:34:00.

regulation of the press. Freedom is defined by this things we don't

:34:00.:34:06.

approve of. Having a statute to guarantee this is not some

:34:06.:34:12.

incidental added on to the Leveson Report, and optional extra. It is a

:34:12.:34:17.

complete contradiction in turns for people to say, I wanted to

:34:17.:34:22.

implement Leveson but without statute. Never since says statute

:34:22.:34:26.

is essential. If the Prime Minster deserves credit for setting up

:34:26.:34:33.

Leveson, it is undermined by his extraordinary decision within 24

:34:33.:34:37.

hours of the seat of the report to rubbish the key recommendations

:34:37.:34:41.

that there would have to be some statutory underpinning of an

:34:41.:34:47.

enhanced system of independent self regulation. Having picked up a 2000

:34:48.:34:54.

page document, the Leader of the Opposition wholeheartedly accepts

:34:54.:34:59.

all of that in one go within a couple of hours. That is not a

:34:59.:35:09.
:35:09.:35:10.

considered approach to a document. The ConservativeHome website is

:35:10.:35:14.

vociferously opposed to any kind of the decision, it wrote before the

:35:14.:35:20.

report, what is needed is a settlement to help ordinary victims,

:35:20.:35:26.

a body with a power to fine, which is independent of the state. I

:35:26.:35:32.

agree with that absolutely. But, can we achieve that without

:35:32.:35:38.

legislation? I do not think we can. So, not much sign of agreement

:35:38.:35:45.

between the politicians in the House of Commons.

:35:45.:35:49.

What was said in a meeting? understand the meeting went on for

:35:49.:35:54.

half an hour and the outcome is the newspapers have agreed to go away.

:35:54.:35:58.

They will meet again tomorrow to begin the process of coming up with

:35:58.:36:04.

an alternative to the Leveson package. Maria Miller is expected

:36:05.:36:11.

to report back by Thursday with a time frame, a timetable by which

:36:11.:36:15.

they think they can agree. The expectation within government is

:36:15.:36:19.

that newspapers will have to come forward with a coherent package by

:36:19.:36:24.

Christmas. The pressure is on them to put aside their differences

:36:24.:36:29.

among them over how Independent this new regulatory body should be,

:36:29.:36:38.

who will be appointed, also, these efficiency of a contract based

:36:38.:36:42.

system. To put aside those differences, and come up with the

:36:42.:36:49.

basis of a blueprint to be on the table by Christmas. So the Prime

:36:49.:36:54.

Minster can say, look, the press is put in together a coherent package,

:36:54.:36:59.

we don't need to go down the road of legislation. When the editors

:36:59.:37:05.

came up, how did they look? Remarkably, monosyllabic and

:37:05.:37:10.

reticent! We'd got very few words. I expect they will mull over what

:37:10.:37:18.

they heard, they have got to move quickly. The status quo is not

:37:18.:37:23.

acceptable. They have to come up with something which convinces the

:37:23.:37:29.

public they are serious about changing their ways. It was not a

:37:29.:37:34.

convivial fireside chat. It was a blunt warning to them to get their

:37:34.:37:44.
:37:44.:37:46.

act together. The editor of the Independent is

:37:46.:37:48.

Chris Blackhurst, hot-foot from this morning's Downing Street

:37:48.:37:51.

meeting. Did you get a dressing-down from

:37:51.:37:56.

David Cameron as a group? wouldn't say that. He impressed

:37:56.:38:05.

upon us we have to come up with a solution, both David Cameron and

:38:05.:38:10.

Maria Mellor, that we have to stop arguing and move quickly, to come

:38:10.:38:17.

up with a strong, coherent package for independent self regulation.

:38:17.:38:27.
:38:27.:38:28.

What was the tone? Was it, you do this, or else? It wasn't like that.

:38:28.:38:36.

There is not a million miles between us really. The Prime

:38:36.:38:39.

Minister made a few good points. I don't think anyone in the room

:38:39.:38:46.

disagreed with him. On what? On our need to move quickly, up on our

:38:46.:38:53.

need to come up with a form of independent self regulation which

:38:53.:39:00.

can be sold to Parliament. He is probably in the minority, the

:39:00.:39:04.

Liberal Democrats and some of his own backbenchers, it has to be sold

:39:04.:39:09.

to them and the country at large. The timetable is clear, a tight

:39:09.:39:15.

timetable. Is it possible? Will there be agreement amongst

:39:15.:39:21.

yourselves? There are disagreements and differences. There are some

:39:21.:39:26.

differences. They are not as great as all that. We are dealing with

:39:26.:39:33.

fairly major things. The can you do it? I would hope so. We can agree

:39:33.:39:39.

principles, the detail might have to be sorted later. But we know the

:39:39.:39:44.

principles, you have got to have something which will be credible,

:39:44.:39:48.

something independent. Is there agreement this independent

:39:48.:39:54.

regulator which you will pay for, will have people on it who are not

:39:54.:39:59.

current editors or politicians? Are you happy for a judge to make the

:39:59.:40:08.

appointments? That is a sticking point. That is a major sticking

:40:08.:40:17.

point. It is whether there is a majority, and I think it is moving

:40:17.:40:23.

the other way. For this to be sold to the public, I don't think the

:40:23.:40:29.

public will buy a majority of serving editors on the panel, that

:40:29.:40:35.

is recognised. I think we can deal with that. I agree, I don't think

:40:35.:40:40.

the public would agree with that. Do you think it has to go further,

:40:40.:40:47.

no serving editors on this new regulator, and no politicians,

:40:47.:40:53.

serving politicians, it should be completely independent? Whether

:40:53.:40:58.

there are some people who understand the newspaper industry,

:40:58.:41:05.

that might be helpful. We are moving into a new age, with the

:41:05.:41:13.

internet. I think the public are interested in if we will have a

:41:13.:41:19.

system where, when they make a mistake, the apologies are not

:41:19.:41:24.

buried in page 9. This is a contractual obligation to deliver

:41:24.:41:31.

apologies. I think the public cares more about that, not whether it is

:41:31.:41:36.

statutory. As it stands, you have been given a last chance to be non

:41:36.:41:43.

statutory. Have you got agreement on that? The regulator would wield

:41:43.:41:48.

�1 million of fines, that victims would not need redress in courts.

:41:49.:41:57.

It would happen quickly, and you would abide by it? I must stress,

:41:57.:42:04.

we have not sat down and signed things in blood yet. What I can say

:42:04.:42:07.

it is a have not detected any disagreement on the following

:42:07.:42:17.
:42:17.:42:19.

points, fines of up to �1 million, also, the use of fast Track

:42:19.:42:24.

Arbitration for ordinary people. We are very conscious, not so much of

:42:24.:42:30.

the celebrities, although they have good cases, but people like Chris

:42:30.:42:34.

Jefferies, the parents of milly downer, it is those people who have

:42:34.:42:39.

real complaints against newspapers, who are not wealthy. We are very

:42:39.:42:45.

aware how our industry has been portrayed for the past three years.

:42:45.:42:50.

We are conscious we have to do something about it. Are there

:42:50.:42:56.

enough carrots to reassure people that everyone will side up to it

:42:56.:43:02.

and stay signed up to it? We talk about these contracts for five

:43:02.:43:07.

years. Is there enough to ensure that certain people who are absent

:43:07.:43:12.

from the Press Complaints Commission will be part of this?

:43:12.:43:20.

think, if you are outside the system, and you're not able to call

:43:20.:43:27.

upon a much cheaper, more efficient arbitration service, you are very

:43:27.:43:31.

handicapped. That is quite different from the system we have

:43:32.:43:41.

now. Very briefly, the internet, the big hole in the Leveson Report.

:43:41.:43:51.
:43:51.:43:56.

It was one of the real holes, he did not address the internet. I

:43:56.:44:00.

think, if certain internet groups are willing to sign up to a

:44:01.:44:08.

standard, we, unlike Lord Leveson, I think this could be a system

:44:08.:44:12.

which we wouldn't consider joining if it was statutory, it could

:44:12.:44:17.

spread good standards right across the media. So you might be there on

:44:17.:44:24.

Thursday? There are growing demands for the

:44:24.:44:28.

taxman to go easy on international sports stars. Tax rules were waved

:44:28.:44:31.

for the Olympics this summer, but not for other sporting events, and

:44:31.:44:34.

organisers want the rules changed. Our political reporter in the West

:44:34.:44:37.

Midlands, Elizabeth Glinka, asked whether those tax laws were for the

:44:37.:44:47.

high jump. This is Birmingham's Alexander

:44:47.:44:52.

Stadium, home to UK Athletics, weeks after the Olympic Games, the

:44:52.:44:58.

venue to play host to Mo Farah and Greg rutherford but not the world's

:44:58.:45:04.

most famous athlete, Usain Bolt. COMMENTATOR: Usain Bolt is going to

:45:04.:45:09.

do it again! After training hear it in the run-up to the Olympics, he

:45:09.:45:14.

made no secret of his affection for Birmingham. It was not enough to

:45:14.:45:19.

get him racing here, because of tax. When are we likely to see you in

:45:19.:45:26.

Britain, maybe only when the tax laws change? Exactly. I love coming

:45:26.:45:36.
:45:36.:45:41.

This isn't about one man or even one sport. Here at the Belfry, the

:45:41.:45:51.
:45:51.:45:54.

Unlike many other countries, in the UK the Treasury taxes international

:45:55.:46:00.

sports stars on their global earnings, even if they perform he

:46:00.:46:04.

just once. Tax experts say they are not surprised that some top

:46:04.:46:10.

performers choose to stay away. you are a boxer or sprinter, you

:46:10.:46:15.

might participate in 10 events a year, in which case the Inland

:46:15.:46:23.

Revenue would want revenue on one tenth of your endorsement Revenue.

:46:23.:46:25.

A new �12 million international tennis centre is currently under

:46:25.:46:29.

construction in Edgbaston, home to one of the warm-up tournaments for

:46:29.:46:34.

Wimbledon, but what chance of attracting the biggest names? Only

:46:34.:46:39.

this year, Rafael Nadal said it actually cost him money to play in

:46:39.:46:43.

the UK. In the past, this man has organised numerous high-profile

:46:43.:46:49.

sporting events, including international indoor athletics at

:46:49.:46:52.

the National Indoor Arena in Birmingham. We want the best

:46:52.:46:57.

because the best brings tickets and tickets means income. If those

:46:57.:47:01.

people don't participate, then by definition it is not a top-quality

:47:01.:47:09.

sporting event. It is a secondary event. In a statement to this

:47:09.:47:14.

programme, the taxman told us that the UK taxes international sports

:47:14.:47:18.

stars in a similar way to the US and New Zealand, and that it tends

:47:18.:47:25.

to collect more tax because of stronger avoidance legislation.

:47:25.:47:28.

Sports governing bodies are continuing to lobby the government

:47:28.:47:33.

so that summers like the one we have just had are not once in a

:47:33.:47:43.
:47:43.:47:43.

lifetime. 9.64! The champion! The champion becomes a legend!

:47:43.:47:51.

Happy memories, as we were saying. That was the Sunday Politics

:47:51.:47:55.

reporter there. Joining us now from Salford is Pete Hackleton who is a

:47:55.:47:58.

lawyer who campaigns to get rid of what he sees as a tax anomoly.

:47:58.:48:04.

Welcome to the programme. What is the tax problem exactly?

:48:04.:48:09.

problem is, as was described in the V T, Usain Bolt is probably the

:48:09.:48:13.

best examples. The athletes are tax wherever they compete around the

:48:13.:48:19.

World's and that is fine, that is the same everywhere. But the UK and

:48:19.:48:24.

the US also tax a proportion of the global endorsement income. Usain

:48:24.:48:29.

Bolt was going to be paid �100,000 to run in Birmingham. His global

:48:29.:48:34.

endorsement deal is worth �6 million. Therefore he is taxed in

:48:34.:48:39.

the UK on the basis of a number of appearances. He was going to run

:48:40.:48:44.

once in the UK and 10 times globally, so a 10th of that 6

:48:44.:48:51.

million, it says �600,000. So he would end up playing 320,000 in UK

:48:51.:49:01.

tax. He would own 100,000 and pay 320,000 in tax. -- he would earn at

:49:01.:49:08.

100,000. It does not make any sense. Oh dear. People will not shed tears

:49:08.:49:13.

over million dollar endorsement deals, having to pay a bit more tax.

:49:13.:49:16.

Absolutely and many people understand that but the sports

:49:16.:49:21.

people can choose where they go and compete. Given the choice of coming

:49:21.:49:26.

to the UK and the US, where a proportion of their income is taxed,

:49:26.:49:30.

or to compete somewhere else, they are choosing to compete elsewhere.

:49:30.:49:35.

On the back of the health agenda, and the Olympics, it is a shame

:49:35.:49:41.

that the tax rules are pushing these people outside of the UK.

:49:41.:49:47.

Montgomerie, should the tax rules changed? This is another argument

:49:47.:49:52.

for simplifying the tax system. We have a tax system that nobody can

:49:52.:49:56.

understand, that causes anomalies. We are all in this together,

:49:56.:50:02.

remember. We may find that some of the Monday these business people in

:50:02.:50:05.

the City and the sports stars obscene, but we have to make a

:50:05.:50:11.

choice -- some of the money. Do we want their obscene earnings are

:50:11.:50:16.

brought? Is it about obscene earnings or is it we think they

:50:16.:50:19.

should perhaps just pay a proportion of that to the treasure

:50:19.:50:24.

rate. I am not saying they are obscene, many people think they are.

:50:24.:50:28.

But I am not sure that is the reason, many people are happy for

:50:28.:50:34.

them to earn this money, but why should be escaper Ian tax? Not any

:50:34.:50:40.

tax, but low and simple tax. -- why should they escape paying tax?

:50:40.:50:45.

might end up with more revenue because people like Usain Bolt will

:50:45.:50:50.

want to run here. A do you think that is true? That if you change

:50:50.:50:54.

the rules, they will come and compete and we would get the

:50:54.:50:59.

Revenue's anyway? Absolutely. I know that is the case. The

:50:59.:51:03.

important distinction is that this is not wealthy sports people saying,

:51:03.:51:08.

give us a tax break. This is what the sports people saying, we are

:51:08.:51:12.

more than happy to pay the top rate of tax but we will end up paying

:51:12.:51:17.

well in excess of 50% and in some cases more than they actually

:51:18.:51:22.

earned in the UK. Three years ago we had a goth client who played in

:51:22.:51:29.

the Scottish Open, but did not finish top 20 -- it golfing client.

:51:29.:51:37.

His effective rate of tax was a 523 %. That cannot be right. Which

:51:37.:51:42.

sports are affected them most? Primarily individual sports, where

:51:42.:51:47.

the guys travel around the world, they are self-employed, so golf,

:51:47.:51:53.

tennis, athletics, boxing, motorsport. It is not the wealthy

:51:53.:51:56.

sports people not wanting to pay tax, it is wanting to pay tax in

:51:56.:52:01.

line with every other country in the world. The endorsement fees are

:52:01.:52:05.

being taxed separately. Are you saying they should not be taxed at

:52:05.:52:11.

all? It depends, it varies from Attlee to afflict, but many of the

:52:11.:52:16.

athletes will have their own company in their country where they

:52:16.:52:21.

are from -- it varies from athlete to athlete. That Africa will be

:52:21.:52:28.

taxed compared to the rules on that country. -- that athlete. That

:52:28.:52:32.

country will own their image. For something like an Usain Bolt from

:52:32.:52:35.

Jamaica, his company is based in Jamaica and the income should be

:52:35.:52:40.

taxed there. Thank you very much. When the worldwide Scouting

:52:40.:52:43.

movement was founded more than 100 years ago, Lord Baden Powell was

:52:43.:52:47.

having no truck with atheists. His famous Scout promise pledged a

:52:47.:52:51.

"duty to God" and that has never changed. In fact, the good Lord,

:52:51.:52:54.

Lord Powell that is, even wrote that atheism ranked alongside

:52:54.:52:56.

gambling, excessive drinking, smoking and even syphilis as a

:52:56.:53:01.

danger to young boys. Versions of the promise have existed for other

:53:01.:53:05.

faith groups for 40 years but both the Scouts and the Guides are

:53:05.:53:07.

exempt from equality laws which means they are allowed to insist

:53:07.:53:13.

their members declare a belief in God. But today we hear that for the

:53:13.:53:16.

first time, this might change and that modern recruits will be

:53:16.:53:25.

allowed to admit that they are non- believers. I am joined by the Chief

:53:25.:53:29.

Commissioner of the Scouts Association. What has brought this

:53:29.:53:34.

on? It is interesting listening to some of Lord Baden Powell's

:53:34.:53:38.

writings but he also said scouting is a movement and not an

:53:38.:53:42.

organisation and it is by remaining relevant that we ensure that we are

:53:42.:53:47.

growing. For the UK in the last seven years, as part of growing

:53:47.:53:51.

perhaps now is that time to take a look and see if we should welcome

:53:51.:53:56.

atheists into the movement. What do you think was mad I think it is the

:53:56.:54:02.

time to change to be honest. -- what do you think? I think it is

:54:02.:54:06.

time to change to be honest but to do so in a way that ensures we

:54:06.:54:11.

remain true to our values. It's we can help youngsters understand

:54:11.:54:14.

their beliefs whilst at the same time ensuring we are inclusive, I

:54:14.:54:19.

think that is a good the Dudu. at evidence to show you could

:54:19.:54:24.

increase the numbers of the Scout organisation if you did not have

:54:24.:54:30.

people have and to swear to God? that is the simple answer. If this

:54:30.:54:35.

was about increasing numbers, I would say, actually we are grubbing

:54:35.:54:40.

already. It is not about being politically correct either -- we

:54:40.:54:45.

are growing already. It is about wanting to be inclusive and making

:54:45.:54:51.

sure more young adults can benefit from what scouting has to offer.

:54:51.:54:56.

Many people are scouts who are atheists already. They swear that

:54:56.:55:02.

allegiance to God and to the Queen who are not in support of the

:55:02.:55:07.

monarchy and just enjoy the scouting movement. I am aware! A

:55:07.:55:11.

number of our members have told me they are atheists and they would

:55:11.:55:16.

like to be part of a more inclusive movement and that is why we are

:55:16.:55:22.

opposing the questions for the first time in our 105 years history.

:55:22.:55:27.

Tim Montgomerie, are you surprised there is still that requirement to

:55:27.:55:33.

swear allegiance to God every week? Slightly surprised. I would be very

:55:33.:55:37.

happy to make that commitment but an atheist should not be included

:55:37.:55:42.

that the wonderful thing that the Scouts movement is. I wonder if

:55:42.:55:46.

they are looking at it for Republicans as well? We you abandon

:55:46.:55:52.

the commitment to her Majesty? definitely not. We are very proud

:55:52.:55:57.

of the Queen's patron edge of scouting and the involvement of The

:55:57.:56:02.

Duchess of Cambridge as a volunteer for us. We have been listening to

:56:02.:56:07.

our members. They are not asking us to change the duty to the Queen.

:56:07.:56:11.

But if you are going for full implicity, surely that is the

:56:11.:56:17.

logical next step? I don't agree. It is about being relevant and

:56:17.:56:21.

listening but being true to our values. That is one for me this is

:56:21.:56:26.

a key part of the question we are asking members. In listening to

:56:26.:56:30.

them, they are not telling us they have a problem in a swearing our

:56:30.:56:35.

allegiance and duty to the Queen. Atheist Monarch guests are welcome?

:56:35.:56:43.

But atheist Republicans still may have to wait for another review?

:56:43.:56:46.

Isn't it a case that the Scouts Association needs to modernise in

:56:46.:56:54.

more than just swearing allegiance? Jo, we are very good at having

:56:54.:56:58.

modernised. Against the trend for Voluntary organisations, adult

:56:58.:57:03.

volunteering, a uniformed organisations, we are growing. We

:57:03.:57:08.

have twice as many teenagers as we did ten years ago. We are a good

:57:08.:57:13.

example of how you can modernise but also remain true to your values

:57:13.:57:18.

and that, for me, is just as important as growing. Has anybody

:57:18.:57:25.

ever said anything about the uniform? Would there be any

:57:25.:57:31.

discussion a about scrapping that? We already have flexibility. I am

:57:31.:57:35.

wearing a neckerchief. For me it is a very simple identification of

:57:35.:57:41.

being a member of scouting. Our uniform today is very much more

:57:41.:57:44.

flexible and modern and young people enjoy some of the options

:57:44.:57:50.

that we have, such as I am where were now. But what we are also told

:57:50.:57:53.

by young people is that they enjoy the sense of identity and we are

:57:53.:57:58.

very happy to find that balance for them. Thank you. Did you say you

:57:58.:58:03.

had been a member of the Scouts? had been a member of the Scouts?

:58:03.:58:06.

had been a member of the Scouts? was a cub scout, not a full one.

:58:06.:58:10.

There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.

:58:10.:58:12.

The question was which actress stood in the US Presidential

:58:12.:58:21.

election and is currently coming in I don't think it is Madonna. It is

:58:21.:58:27.

not. I would have guessed Jane Fonda but it is not, I think it is

:58:27.:58:34.

Roseanne Barr. It is Roseanne Barr. Very good powers of deduction. The

:58:34.:58:40.

she is signing for the Peace and Freedom Party. She didn't quite

:58:40.:58:44.

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