Browse content similar to 10/12/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Afternoon, folks, welcome to the Daily Politics. It is short, simple | :00:42. | :00:46. | |
and men to make the newspapers behave better it. In the wake of | :00:46. | :00:50. | |
the Leveson report, Labour is the first to publish a draft bill | :00:50. | :00:54. | |
regulating the press. The party wants a panel of senior judges to | :00:54. | :00:58. | |
oversee the new system of self- regulation and we will ask the | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
Labour Deputy Leader Harriet Harman whether it will work. | :01:01. | :01:05. | |
Let me pop this question - will gay marriage think the Tories? John | :01:05. | :01:10. | |
Major is the latest to show support, reminding his party that we live in | :01:10. | :01:14. | |
the 21st century. A group of MPs say ministers should | :01:14. | :01:17. | |
consider ending criminal penalties for some people found with small | :01:17. | :01:22. | |
quantities of drugs. And three cheers for the European | :01:22. | :01:31. | |
Union, who today took hold of the Nobel Peace Prize - hurrah! | :01:31. | :01:35. | |
All that in the next hour. With us for the duration, or at least half | :01:35. | :01:42. | |
of it, a crossbench peer who likes the beer. Welcome to Karan | :01:42. | :01:47. | |
Bilimoria. He is the founder and chairman of Cobra Beer. First this | :01:47. | :01:51. | |
morning, let's talk about genetically modified food. The | :01:51. | :01:55. | |
Environment Secretary, Owen Paterson, would like more of it. | :01:55. | :02:00. | |
Ministers are preparing to relax controls on the cultivation of GM | :02:00. | :02:04. | |
crops. In the Daily Telegraph, Mr Paterson said GM food should be | :02:04. | :02:08. | |
grown and sold widely in Britain and consumer opposition to the | :02:08. | :02:13. | |
technology was, quote, complete nonsense. Is he right? I have | :02:13. | :02:18. | |
spoken about GM foods in Parliament. Agriculture in this country needs | :02:18. | :02:23. | |
far more attention, the agriculture sector has gone down to barely over | :02:23. | :02:28. | |
1% of our GDP, tiny. We need to encourage agriculture. In India, | :02:28. | :02:33. | |
for example, I know how much during the green revolution that hybrid | :02:33. | :02:38. | |
crops were used, which transformed Indian agriculture. It has lifted | :02:38. | :02:43. | |
starving people out of poverty. In theory, GM food is a great idea, | :02:43. | :02:48. | |
you can increase productivity, reduce fertiliser reduce, reduce | :02:48. | :02:52. | |
the risk of infection. It should benefit humanity, held up with | :02:52. | :02:57. | |
people from poverty. Are there no dangers? Of course they have shown | :02:57. | :03:01. | |
to be dangers. One needs to look at it carefully. There is a lot of | :03:01. | :03:05. | |
opposition in India because you have to look at very small holdings | :03:05. | :03:10. | |
and the way it is implemented. But on a case-by-case basis here it is | :03:10. | :03:14. | |
worthy of considering, rather than having a very blinkered attitude. | :03:14. | :03:19. | |
It looks like, belatedly, we will go for it? There has been a lot of | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
debate in years gone by, I think the Daily Mail called it | :03:22. | :03:28. | |
Frankenstein food, but it looks like the opposition is losing out? | :03:28. | :03:33. | |
We need to be practical. Science is advancing and if you can have | :03:33. | :03:37. | |
science helping you to be more productive, that has to benefit in | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
keeping costs down. We are going through horrible recessionary times, | :03:41. | :03:48. | |
we must keep an open mind. Now time for away daily quiz. The | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
Communities Secretary and MP for Brentwood and avant-garde, Eric | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
Pickles, appeared on Desert Island Discs on Radio 4 yesterday. Guests | :03:55. | :04:00. | |
can take one luxury item on to the island, what did he choose? | :04:00. | :04:07. | |
Earl Grey tea, an organic pork pie, weekly bin collections or a boxed | :04:07. | :04:12. | |
set of The Only Way is Essex? Shut At the end of the show, someone | :04:12. | :04:16. | |
will tell us the right answer, I hope. | :04:16. | :04:19. | |
When Brian Leveson published his 2000 page report into the future of | :04:19. | :04:22. | |
press legislation, he said the ball was back in the Court of the | :04:23. | :04:27. | |
politicians. What have they done since? The Conservative Party the | :04:27. | :04:30. | |
Government is against a system of regulation which has to be backed | :04:30. | :04:34. | |
by a new law. The Culture Department is drawing up a draft | :04:35. | :04:38. | |
bill to show, they say, how complicated it would be. | :04:38. | :04:42. | |
But Labour, which supports Leveson's call for a regulator | :04:42. | :04:46. | |
backed by law, has come up with its own draft bill. Everyone seems to | :04:46. | :04:51. | |
be doing it. Presumably to show how easy it can be done, the Labour | :04:51. | :04:57. | |
version is a mere eight pages and six clauses long. | :04:57. | :04:59. | |
They envisage a new regulator called the Press Standards Trust | :04:59. | :05:02. | |
with the power to investigate complaints and false papers to | :05:02. | :05:07. | |
print apologies or face big fines. Every national newspaper and | :05:07. | :05:10. | |
magazine with a substantial UK circulation would be expected to | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
join, but purely online organisation such as blogs would | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
not have to. The Labour plans would see the Lord Chief Justice | :05:18. | :05:22. | |
appointed to oversee the new trust, along with a panel of other judges | :05:22. | :05:27. | |
who decide once every few years if it is up to scratch. The Bill would | :05:27. | :05:30. | |
order ministers and anyone in public office to uphold the freedom | :05:30. | :05:35. | |
of the press. Ed Miliband is said to have spoken to Nick Clegg about | :05:35. | :05:38. | |
the proposals, which are said to have gone down well with the | :05:38. | :05:42. | |
Liberal Democrats. That could add to pressure on David Cameron of the | :05:42. | :05:46. | |
cross-party talks later this week. Labour's Harriet Harman has worked | :05:47. | :05:53. | |
on the draft Bill and joins me now. Welcome. What is there in the | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
behaviour of judges in this country which would make you think that the | :05:56. | :06:01. | |
freedom of the press would be safe in my hands? What our Bill does is | :06:01. | :06:05. | |
it actually enacts a central principle that Leveson put forward, | :06:05. | :06:10. | |
which is the press need to redo their press complaints system so it | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
is independent and effective, but there needs to be some legal | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
guarantee, some guarantee in law that they will not just slip back. | :06:18. | :06:23. | |
Previously they have said we will sort things out and improve the | :06:23. | :06:27. | |
system and after a few years they have slipped back. This Bill is | :06:27. | :06:31. | |
simply sets up a system which recognises and gives the | :06:31. | :06:36. | |
responsibility to the Lord Chief Justice. Let me come back to my | :06:36. | :06:39. | |
question, what is it in the behaviour of British judges in | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
modern times which makes you think that freedom of the press is safer | :06:43. | :06:49. | |
now hands? They will apply the law. And the law we have set out says | :06:49. | :06:54. | |
there has to be a guarantee of press freedom but also says that if | :06:54. | :07:00. | |
a body which has been set up by the press themselves but is actually | :07:00. | :07:03. | |
independents and operating according to the criteria Leveson | :07:03. | :07:08. | |
set out, you simply verify it, you go away and carry on with your day | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
job of being Lord Chief Justice, in three years' time you look again | :07:12. | :07:15. | |
and say, are they still doing what they promised they would do? If | :07:15. | :07:20. | |
they have you tick the box and go away again. It is a legal guarantee | :07:20. | :07:25. | |
that you don't have what she always had Doba last 70 years, good | :07:25. | :07:30. | |
intentions and then things slipping. -- what you always had over the | :07:30. | :07:34. | |
last 70 years. The British judiciary has been responsible for | :07:34. | :07:40. | |
some of the most anti- believe -- anti- free press behaviour is in | :07:40. | :07:44. | |
the modern world, such as thalidomide and Spycatcher, which | :07:44. | :07:51. | |
they tried to stop it being -- to stop being published. They would | :07:52. | :07:55. | |
not be dealing with any complaints about the press, that is not what | :07:55. | :08:00. | |
they would be doing. But they would monitor the body that is. They | :08:00. | :08:06. | |
would not. They would report every two or three years. At the outset | :08:06. | :08:09. | |
they would look up the criteria laid down by Leveson like whether | :08:09. | :08:13. | |
the body is independent and includes the newspapers, they would | :08:13. | :08:16. | |
then say it has ticked the box and they would get on and deal with the | :08:16. | :08:21. | |
press. The Lord Chief Justice would be no where near content or any of | :08:21. | :08:25. | |
those other issues. I have read your bill, it is interesting, more | :08:25. | :08:32. | |
readable than most, although that may be a weakness of it. But under | :08:32. | :08:38. | |
the Bill the Lord Chief Justice and other judges would monitor, reports | :08:38. | :08:44. | |
on how this body of regulators is performing with the power to make | :08:44. | :08:51. | |
regulations, suggest changes and enforce them if need be? In the six | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
clauses and The One Show Gil, it says at the outset it would verify | :08:54. | :09:02. | |
the system and then look at it. If you had a system which was set up | :09:02. | :09:05. | |
and after a year the press decided to close the whole thing down, I | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
don't think they would, but supposing they did, we have a | :09:09. | :09:14. | |
clause which says if it breaks down between the three years, then the | :09:14. | :09:17. | |
Lord Chief Justice can say the system is broken-down and therefore | :09:17. | :09:22. | |
it is no longer verified. I would like you to recognise and accept | :09:22. | :09:28. | |
that this takes the courts nowhere near what is written in the papers. | :09:28. | :09:31. | |
Parliament is nowhere near what is written in the papers, the | :09:31. | :09:35. | |
Government is nowhere near. The press would set up their own system | :09:35. | :09:39. | |
to deal with complaints, we would just tick the box. It is operating | :09:39. | :09:45. | |
in the way they say it will operate. But the judges would still be the | :09:45. | :09:50. | |
Verify and they would report on the performance of this body. They | :09:50. | :09:55. | |
would not report on the performance, they would simply say, is the body | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
matching the criteria laid out? They would not have it up and say, | :09:59. | :10:03. | |
we are not happy with how you dealt with this complaint, we think you | :10:03. | :10:08. | |
should have dealt differently, they will simply look at whether or not | :10:08. | :10:11. | |
it is structurally and organisationally what the press | :10:11. | :10:15. | |
themselves say they are doing. next Lord Chief Justice could be | :10:15. | :10:20. | |
Brian Leveson. Are you happy he would be the one regulating the | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
press? Whoever is Lord Chief Justice will have the | :10:23. | :10:29. | |
responsibility of applying the law according to the statute. This is a | :10:29. | :10:34. | |
very simple and straightforward task. It must worry you that Brian | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
Leveson could be the Lord Chief Justice, the man that you would put | :10:37. | :10:43. | |
in power as the ultimate arbitrator of press regulation? All the | :10:43. | :10:46. | |
experience of working journalists, I don't know if you speak to them | :10:46. | :10:51. | |
Walmart, they don't think judges understand the media or not. It's a | :10:51. | :10:54. | |
Claude Leveson six months to work out that journalists do not write | :10:54. | :10:58. | |
their own headlines, and yet she want to give these people with no | :10:58. | :11:03. | |
expertise at all the ultimate ride on regulating the press? We don't. | :11:03. | :11:06. | |
And the criteria that Leveson has laid down for highways system | :11:06. | :11:12. | |
should work, and independence of regulatory system, they have been | :11:12. | :11:20. | |
agreed by the newspapers, they have said they are good criteria and we | :11:20. | :11:25. | |
will accept the principles. All we are doing is ensuring them having | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
accepted those principles and setting up a body which complies | :11:28. | :11:34. | |
with those principles, we have it verified and also in three years' | :11:34. | :11:37. | |
time we have a sense that the press know that they have to keep doing | :11:37. | :11:42. | |
what they're doing and not slip back. I have got your own copy of | :11:42. | :11:47. | |
the bill for you to read. I have read it, but why don't you sign it | :11:47. | :11:53. | |
for me? Why did you give up on Ofcom? Mr | :11:53. | :11:57. | |
Miliband first said he wanted Ofcom to do this, not the Lord Chief | :11:57. | :12:02. | |
Justice. This recognising body should be Ofcom, but if people did | :12:02. | :12:05. | |
not want that they could have an alternative. Ed Miliband said you | :12:05. | :12:10. | |
would go with Ofcom. Leveson said we should have of combative people | :12:10. | :12:14. | |
did not wanted there could be an alternative. Ed Miliband said we | :12:14. | :12:19. | |
would go with Leveson to have Ofcom, but in the debate last Monday and | :12:19. | :12:24. | |
number of MPs, including, importantly, the Deputy Prime | :12:25. | :12:30. | |
Minister... Mr Clegg, I think his name is. He said he was not happy | :12:30. | :12:35. | |
with Ofcom. Ofcom is not a central tenet, it is a question of who will | :12:35. | :12:39. | |
do the role. We have come forward with something we think will | :12:39. | :12:43. | |
reassure people of the independence. And you hope for wider support by | :12:43. | :12:50. | |
doing it this way. Off, is a direct regulator, that is the worry. -- of, | :12:50. | :12:55. | |
is a direct regulator of. If you give back an observing role to | :12:55. | :13:00. | |
somebody whose day-job is the regulator, they might start getting | :13:00. | :13:05. | |
directly regulatory. But Leveson said you could pick. You have | :13:05. | :13:10. | |
changed your mind, I understand. have not, we listen to Parliament... | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
And change your mind, Miliband said you would go with off, and you have | :13:14. | :13:23. | |
not, you have changed your mind, fact. You want compromise, stop | :13:24. | :13:29. | |
arguing with me, I am agreeing with you. You're doing quite well as | :13:29. | :13:34. | |
arguing with me. What is the logic of saying the | :13:34. | :13:38. | |
online website of the New Statesman should come within this regulation, | :13:38. | :13:43. | |
which has no great influence on Westminster, but probably one of | :13:43. | :13:50. | |
the most influential sites, credo Fawkes, should not? Faulks is | :13:50. | :13:55. | |
offshore, offshore activities, of the situation of the law deals with | :13:55. | :14:00. | |
them differently. But they could join voluntarily. If they did and | :14:00. | :14:05. | |
they got done for libel, they would be able to say we are in the body, | :14:05. | :14:10. | |
please make our damages accordingly and don't sting us with costs. | :14:10. | :14:14. | |
though Guido Fawkes is not covered if he does not volunteer to join it, | :14:14. | :14:19. | |
he could get costs in any libel case? There are sticks and carrots, | :14:19. | :14:26. | |
you can get costs reduced if you join his body, because you have | :14:26. | :14:30. | |
shown good endeavour, it is a mitigating factor. If you don't, | :14:30. | :14:34. | |
and you are found guilty of libel, you get it in the neck. This will | :14:35. | :14:39. | |
come before the Lords. If it ever becomes a bill in parliament, how | :14:39. | :14:49. | |
There is a feeling that things have gone too far T majority of the | :14:49. | :14:56. | |
Leveson report has got people agreeing with it. Having judges and | :14:56. | :15:01. | |
I have the greatest respect for British courts. Worldwide we have | :15:01. | :15:06. | |
the fairest courts in the world. Anything to do with judges, courts, | :15:06. | :15:10. | |
supervising the press, alarm bells ring. The free press is a | :15:10. | :15:14. | |
cornerstone of this country. I know the intentions are good, but you | :15:14. | :15:19. | |
have to have an independent regulator. We know the Press | :15:19. | :15:21. | |
Complaints Commission has not worked. We need something which | :15:21. | :15:26. | |
will. The report is very good in that sense. We have to stay away | :15:26. | :15:32. | |
from any form of statutory control of the press. That will destroy and | :15:32. | :15:37. | |
the perception sent abroad - we must remember that, not just here. | :15:37. | :15:41. | |
How do you stop what has happened over the past 70 years, the press | :15:41. | :15:44. | |
changing, getting their house in order and then slipping back. As | :15:44. | :15:49. | |
far as abroad is concerned that is a red hearing. The Irish have their | :15:49. | :15:55. | |
system and they are human rights come President Clinton. Ironically, | :15:55. | :16:02. | |
the biggest -- they are right rights compliant. | :16:02. | :16:07. | |
That is one stop. That is what has been shown to happen. | :16:07. | :16:11. | |
I think we have learnt some serious lessons. What you have said has | :16:11. | :16:14. | |
been said over and over again. This time we have to make sure we don't | :16:14. | :16:18. | |
slip back. It is not fair on people like the McCanns and the Dowlers | :16:18. | :16:23. | |
that should happen to families. Speaking of... Don't leave us, | :16:23. | :16:27. | |
because we are speaking about lives being wrecked by some things the | :16:27. | :16:33. | |
media do. From the British press, let's move to the Australian media. | :16:33. | :16:39. | |
The two presenters who made that hoax call say they are heart broken | :16:39. | :16:44. | |
by the death of the nurse caught newspaper the prank. Her name was | :16:44. | :16:49. | |
Jacintha Saldanha. She was found dead three days after put through | :16:49. | :16:54. | |
that call. This is what the presenters had to say earlier today. | :16:54. | :16:58. | |
Unfortunately I remember that moment very well, because I haven't | :16:58. | :17:01. | |
stopped thinking about it since it happened. I remember my first | :17:01. | :17:11. | |
:17:11. | :17:11. | ||
question was, was she a mother. When you found out she was what did | :17:11. | :17:18. | |
you think? Very sad for the family. I cannot imagine what they are | :17:18. | :17:21. | |
going through. What about you? Gutted. You know. | :17:21. | :17:27. | |
Shattered. Heart-broken. | :17:27. | :17:34. | |
Does it even feel real to you what has happened? We're still trying to | :17:34. | :17:40. | |
get our heads around everything, trying to make sense of the | :17:40. | :17:44. | |
situation. It doesn't seem real because you could not foresee | :17:44. | :17:48. | |
something happening like that from a prank call. It was never nopbt go | :17:48. | :17:55. | |
that far. It was meant to be a -- never meant to go that far. It | :17:55. | :18:01. | |
meant to be a prank. This wasn't supposed to happen. If it was a | :18:01. | :18:05. | |
British tabloid responsible, in the post Leveson atmosphere there would | :18:05. | :18:10. | |
be a lynch mob, wouldn't there? think everybody right now is | :18:10. | :18:14. | |
sympathetic and heart-broken for the family and there will be an | :18:14. | :18:20. | |
inquest, but I think it's just a real tragedy. I think the idea of | :18:20. | :18:25. | |
trying to judge what has happened on this against this bill we've put | :18:25. | :18:30. | |
forward, I mean I just.... I think it is relevant. If this were to | :18:30. | :18:35. | |
become law, there would be a body of law which is the basis of press | :18:35. | :18:39. | |
regulation. If you got something like that, God forbid, done by a | :18:39. | :18:43. | |
British newspaper, there would be a huge outcry in Parliament, you | :18:43. | :18:49. | |
probably leading it to toughen up things so this could not happen? | :18:49. | :18:56. | |
All there would be is a stamp - an authorisation of what the press | :18:56. | :19:01. | |
themselves are doing by the way of Press Complaints Commission. They | :19:01. | :19:05. | |
are reconstituting that now. What do you think? What happens here is | :19:05. | :19:11. | |
awful. On one hand, you would say pranks - people have always pulled | :19:11. | :19:17. | |
pranks, they will always happen. In this instance you are talking about | :19:17. | :19:20. | |
people playing a prank on a hospital, dealing with people | :19:21. | :19:24. | |
caring for people's lives. You are trying to get private, sensitive | :19:25. | :19:28. | |
information, let alone, it happens to be a member of the Royal Family. | :19:28. | :19:32. | |
That is wrong, for somebody to think of playing a prank like that | :19:32. | :19:36. | |
- it's completely wrong. They are regretting what they've done. They | :19:36. | :19:39. | |
have no... They were not thinking of what they were doing. Well, it | :19:40. | :19:44. | |
is very serious. You don't do that with a hospital. | :19:44. | :19:52. | |
Will you sign this for me? Indeed! With a kiss? I am hoping to even | :19:52. | :19:57. | |
persuade you it might be a bit of a tall order. I have no views on the | :19:57. | :20:01. | |
matter. I am in favour of press freedom, like you are. I would not | :20:01. | :20:05. | |
dream of doing anything I felt harmed the press. I am in favour of | :20:05. | :20:09. | |
individuals to lead their lives without harassment. That is what | :20:09. | :20:17. | |
has been suggested we do. David Cameron is in favour of gay | :20:17. | :20:20. | |
marriage. So are many prominent figures, not everyone in the party | :20:20. | :20:28. | |
Adam is on the green. You are totally right. It is fair to say | :20:28. | :20:33. | |
this divided Conservatives to strong views. Let's hear some of | :20:33. | :20:38. | |
the views. We have Tim Montgomery from Conservative home and Peter | :20:38. | :20:43. | |
Bone. You are in favour of same-sex marriage, so too is John Major, he | :20:43. | :20:48. | |
issued a statement in favour. Why is that a significant moment? | :20:48. | :20:53. | |
is important for the Conservative Party to demonstrate is civility. I | :20:53. | :20:59. | |
respect Peter's view. I hope he respects mine. What I hope we'll | :20:59. | :21:05. | |
get to in a position and this is what the Freedom to Marry group is | :21:05. | :21:10. | |
hoping for - a number of others leading, the right for gay people | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
to be part of the important institution of marriage but | :21:14. | :21:18. | |
important liberty to protect it as well. We must not force anybody in | :21:18. | :21:21. | |
the churches or mosques or synagogues to support something | :21:21. | :21:26. | |
that is against their consciences. Is it is a civil debate? It seems | :21:26. | :21:30. | |
like it is getting bad tempered? didn't start off very well. The | :21:30. | :21:35. | |
letter Tim was associated with implied that most people who didn't | :21:35. | :21:39. | |
support their view were homophobic. That is a really bad way. It was | :21:39. | :21:44. | |
badly written. If that is not what it meant, please say. When I hear | :21:44. | :21:48. | |
other Conservative MPs picking on other Conservative MPs over this | :21:48. | :21:52. | |
issue, that is not the way to have this. It's not just the | :21:52. | :21:57. | |
Conservative Party who is divided over it - of course the country is | :21:57. | :22:01. | |
divided. It is not just political parties, people of different | :22:01. | :22:04. | |
political views. I believe marriage is between a man and a woman. I | :22:04. | :22:08. | |
have that right to believe that. Tim takes a different view. What I | :22:08. | :22:13. | |
object to is this being forced on Parliament now when there's no | :22:13. | :22:18. | |
mandate from any political party, not in any manifesto for this to | :22:18. | :22:21. | |
happen. Yes, so Tim where is this coming from? It was not in | :22:21. | :22:28. | |
manifestos, as Peter Bone says - the evidence from the public is | :22:28. | :22:32. | |
mixed? I don't think it is mixed. There is a large minority who | :22:32. | :22:37. | |
oppose this form. Every opinion poll has found a large majority of | :22:37. | :22:42. | |
people in favour of this reform, particularly amongst young people, | :22:42. | :22:44. | |
and even amongst most religious people as well, I think there is | :22:44. | :22:48. | |
support for this. One of the first speeches David Cameron gave as | :22:48. | :22:51. | |
leader of the Conservative Party was, he said he wanted to see | :22:51. | :22:55. | |
marriage between a man and a man, a woman and a woman and a man and a | :22:55. | :22:59. | |
woman as well. He wanted full equality before the law. I think | :22:59. | :23:03. | |
that's the right position for the Conservative Party, for the nation, | :23:03. | :23:09. | |
to address. Completely, contrary to what Peter has said, I don't regard | :23:09. | :23:18. | |
him as homophobic. Why did that letter say it? You read it. | :23:18. | :23:23. | |
Nick Clegg spoke very badly in that press release that he withdraw. I | :23:23. | :23:26. | |
don't regard people who have sincere, perhaps religious views, | :23:26. | :23:31. | |
who hold the view that Peter does as anything other than sincere. | :23:31. | :23:35. | |
People who are homophobic I think are a small minority. I don't want | :23:35. | :23:42. | |
to swap one form of intoll rapbls for a new form of inkol -- | :23:42. | :23:47. | |
intolerance, for a new form of intolerance. | :23:47. | :23:50. | |
Mutual tolerance and support for equal rights. Also, isn't the | :23:50. | :23:55. | |
problem with this issue, it's not like a lot of issues where there | :23:55. | :24:05. | |
can be a nice fudge, people are broadly happy with. There is no | :24:05. | :24:08. | |
compromise We should argue on the issue. Maybe something we can agree | :24:08. | :24:13. | |
on is there cannot be a goorn tee that churches will not be forced to | :24:13. | :24:17. | |
have same-sex marriage. When the European Court of Human Rights gets | :24:17. | :24:22. | |
involved, who knows where it will go! A few weeks ago we said there | :24:22. | :24:30. | |
would be no church same-sex wedding. There's not a cast-iron guarantee. | :24:30. | :24:33. | |
Tim knows the European Court has its own way of getting involved in | :24:33. | :24:37. | |
these things. Let's look way into the distance. Imagine this | :24:37. | :24:41. | |
legislation is passed or swished in the House of Commons and the Lords, | :24:41. | :24:43. | |
where would this leave the Conservative Party once it happens | :24:43. | :24:48. | |
or doesn't happen? I think what is true is we look at issues like | :24:48. | :24:54. | |
Section 28 from ten years ago or civil partnerships from five years | :24:54. | :24:57. | |
ago. These were issues of huge controversy at the time. Almost as | :24:57. | :25:02. | |
soon as they are passed they are accepted by the nation. I don't | :25:02. | :25:05. | |
know Peter's view on civil partnerships. I support them. There | :25:05. | :25:10. | |
you go. Did you at the time? That's a very nice, easy thing to say, | :25:10. | :25:14. | |
isn't it? When you are trying to change an institution which has | :25:14. | :25:19. | |
been there for hundreds of years - this is where you will see from | :25:19. | :25:23. | |
Conservative home the number of grass root Torys who are opposed to | :25:23. | :25:27. | |
this change F we do it, put it in a manifesto, have a general election. | :25:27. | :25:31. | |
Let people decide whether they want to vote for that MP, not bring it | :25:31. | :25:35. | |
forward now. I hope you'll agree with me, this is an own-goal in | :25:35. | :25:40. | |
terms of the Conservative Party. It damages us. What happens if it gets | :25:40. | :25:47. | |
past in 18 months - would you leave the Conservative Party? I do have a | :25:47. | :25:50. | |
calling that is higher than the Conservative Party - that's God, of | :25:50. | :25:54. | |
course. We have strong arguments... What I don't want. It is not what | :25:54. | :25:58. | |
the letter in the Telegraph said. We must have a civilised debate. I | :25:58. | :26:02. | |
would hope the people who wrote that letter will apologise for it. | :26:02. | :26:09. | |
I think you are being too pressure about that. -- precious about that. | :26:09. | :26:16. | |
I I think millions were offended by it. I am sure not. Take steps that | :26:16. | :26:20. | |
way. Carry on discussing it and we'll go back to the studio where | :26:20. | :26:27. | |
we will talk about controversial issues. We'll hear more later in | :26:27. | :26:31. | |
the week when Maria Miller will be in the Commons to update MPs on | :26:31. | :26:36. | |
what MPs want to do with this issue. Where are you on this? I led a | :26:36. | :26:40. | |
debate earlier this year on the contribution of the ethnic and | :26:40. | :26:44. | |
religious minoritys to this country. It is fantastic that we have such | :26:44. | :26:50. | |
an open country, a secular country, multicultural, where we don't just | :26:50. | :26:55. | |
tolerate all religions, we celebrate all religions. We've had | :26:55. | :26:59. | |
civil partnerships. If this is to go ahead, so long as it is not | :26:59. | :27:04. | |
forced on any religious body to implement it. The fear is once it - | :27:04. | :27:08. | |
although that's not the intention - the critics say once this becomes | :27:08. | :27:14. | |
law, there will be huge pressure on the churches, even maybe legal | :27:14. | :27:18. | |
pressure to conform. No, I they are making it very clear. Of course the | :27:18. | :27:22. | |
step by step approach would be a first for civil partnerships to be | :27:22. | :27:26. | |
recognised as marriages. Then to get to this stage and now it's | :27:26. | :27:29. | |
going straight to marriages. you happy with that, or not? | :27:29. | :27:34. | |
think, on the whole, people seem to want to move on in that direction. | :27:34. | :27:39. | |
My biggest fear is it should not be forced on the religions. That is | :27:39. | :27:44. | |
wrong, we should not do that. out thevy lins and spare a thought | :27:45. | :27:50. | |
for poor MPs who are - well sometimes they cannot win. Take | :27:50. | :27:55. | |
immigration. The Government wants to bring net migration below the | :27:55. | :28:01. | |
100,000 mark by 2015. They are 80,000 off target. Ministers want | :28:01. | :28:05. | |
to grow the high tech businesses which often rely on, you have got | :28:05. | :28:09. | |
it, skilled foreign workers from outside the EU, who will be hit by | :28:09. | :28:12. | |
the immigration cap. That means they are getting it in the neck | :28:12. | :28:19. | |
from, well, just about everybody. In America, they have Silicon | :28:19. | :28:23. | |
Valley, a sizable chunk of California poplised by industries | :28:23. | :28:28. | |
of 21st century and beyond. We are British. We have silicon roundabout. | :28:28. | :28:35. | |
One day, all of this will be high tech startups, run by trendy | :28:35. | :28:38. | |
entrepreneurs, the Government insist will revitalise the economy. | :28:38. | :28:43. | |
That is why politicians love to hang here. The cool kids say, | :28:43. | :28:47. | |
thanks in a large part to the Government's immigration policies, | :28:47. | :28:51. | |
they cannot get the staff. Their beef is with the cap. Ministers | :28:51. | :28:56. | |
want to bring net inward migration below 100,000 by 2015. It is | :28:56. | :29:00. | |
currently at 180,000. They cannot do much about people there the EU, | :29:00. | :29:04. | |
but they can deal with those from outside it. Only people with | :29:04. | :29:08. | |
exceptional skills, investors and entrepreneurs are being welcomed. | :29:08. | :29:12. | |
Students face tougher language tests, are allowed to stay for less | :29:12. | :29:16. | |
time and need a sponsoring employer. That gives the new breed of | :29:16. | :29:20. | |
businesses around these parts a headache. The high tech companies | :29:20. | :29:27. | |
on Silicon Roundabout are affected. We thrive on having really skilled | :29:27. | :29:34. | |
workers and are ability to expand and provide new jobs in this area | :29:34. | :29:37. | |
is affected by getting the skilled workers. We would love to have as | :29:37. | :29:43. | |
many British coming in. But if we are going to grow Silicon | :29:43. | :29:46. | |
Roundabout into something which is world-beating and has a major | :29:46. | :29:49. | |
effect on the economy, we need to bring in the best and the brightest | :29:49. | :29:53. | |
from around the world. You don't have to support the Government to | :29:53. | :29:58. | |
disagree with Dan. So far as employers are concerned it is self- | :29:58. | :30:05. | |
serving. It is the easy way out. Instead of resources for young | :30:05. | :30:10. | |
people - don't forget 20% of graduates cannot get jobs. Instead | :30:10. | :30:15. | |
of taking on graduates, the easy option is to get somebody from | :30:15. | :30:20. | |
abroad. Of course they use the argument, this strives economic | :30:20. | :30:26. | |
growth. It adds minutely overall to GDP. So far as per capita GPD, that | :30:26. | :30:31. | |
is the wealth of the individuals in the country, it doesn't add at all. | :30:31. | :30:33. | |
Equally, being a Conservative doesn't mean you have to think what | :30:33. | :30:43. | |
:30:43. | :30:45. | ||
The trouble is that I do not think the policy is in the economic | :30:45. | :30:48. | |
interests of the country and I don't think we will be able to | :30:48. | :30:52. | |
reduce immigration from its current level of 182,000 to under 100 birds | :30:52. | :30:58. | |
and, which is what we have promised. Which leads people like Dan feeling | :30:58. | :31:03. | |
dazed and confused. On the one hand we are promoting | :31:03. | :31:06. | |
Silicon Roundabout and we are able to find great people to come in as | :31:06. | :31:09. | |
a result of that, but on the other hand the Government is saying that | :31:09. | :31:15. | |
we don't want immigrants. This is not what the UK once, the UK is not | :31:15. | :31:21. | |
open for business. You can't have those two messages at once. | :31:21. | :31:25. | |
immigration debate is as much about politics and people as it is about | :31:25. | :31:29. | |
the numbers, which makes keeping everyone happy very hard indeed. | :31:29. | :31:33. | |
We are joined by the Immigration Minister Mark Harper, welcomed. Is | :31:33. | :31:39. | |
there not a danger that your immigration strategy is now | :31:39. | :31:43. | |
undermining your growth strategy? don't think so. I fundamentally | :31:43. | :31:46. | |
don't understand and that clip why the gentleman was saying he had | :31:46. | :31:50. | |
heard people say Britain was closed for business. Ministers have said | :31:50. | :31:54. | |
nothing of the sort. Our policies are about having fewer people | :31:54. | :31:58. | |
overall but being more selective and making sure we have skilled | :31:58. | :32:02. | |
workers. If you look at the figures published on the 29th of November, | :32:02. | :32:06. | |
we have fewer people coming in of all but more skilled workers. We | :32:06. | :32:10. | |
have fewer students but more students coming to an excellent | :32:10. | :32:14. | |
British universities, Britain is very much open for business. Why do | :32:14. | :32:20. | |
you have a cap on 1000 visas for the exceptionally talented? That is | :32:20. | :32:24. | |
a new stream we have opened up, we have not reached 1000 yet. A number | :32:25. | :32:29. | |
of the things we have opened, we have developed. Why would you | :32:29. | :32:33. | |
cabbage? Don't we want exceptionally talented people? Why | :32:33. | :32:38. | |
would you put a cap on exceptional talent? We opened a new stream to | :32:38. | :32:41. | |
have people coming in under that route, people who were extremely | :32:41. | :32:47. | |
talented, and also routes for entrepreneurs and investors. We | :32:47. | :32:51. | |
want people to come here, start businesses and be successful, that | :32:51. | :32:56. | |
is the strategy we have outlined and it is working. When that | :32:56. | :33:00. | |
gentleman said he could not hire skilled workers, the cap we have is | :33:00. | :33:05. | |
nowhere near being reached. I just don't think it is true. If you | :33:05. | :33:09. | |
can't hire them it is not because of the cap? If he wants to bring | :33:09. | :33:14. | |
skilled workers from outside the EU, there should not be a problem. | :33:14. | :33:20. | |
are a businessman, you deal with this, what is your view? | :33:20. | :33:25. | |
reality is the perception of what is being said. This country has | :33:25. | :33:31. | |
been built on good immigration. The previous government lost control of | :33:31. | :33:34. | |
immigration and if you asked the UK Border Agency right now how many | :33:34. | :33:37. | |
illegal immigrants that are, they cannot even give you a figure | :33:37. | :33:42. | |
rounded up to 100,000, they have no clue. We have lost control of our | :33:42. | :33:47. | |
borders, we have not introduced exit controls so we don't even know | :33:47. | :33:51. | |
who is sleeping. Then there is a big difference between bad and good | :33:51. | :33:55. | |
immigration. There are 60 million people on a small island, we can't | :33:55. | :33:59. | |
have everyone coming in. It is an attractive place to come, one of | :34:00. | :34:04. | |
the top 10 economies in the world, but we need to get control and keep | :34:04. | :34:09. | |
away the bad immigration. What about the cap? | :34:09. | :34:15. | |
ALL TALK AT ONCE. It is the way that you did it. If | :34:15. | :34:18. | |
you want to get bad. -- rid of the bad immigration, the dodgy colleges | :34:18. | :34:24. | |
and students, everybody would agree. But if you have a blunt, crude | :34:24. | :34:29. | |
immigration cap, you send out the message of a broad brush carpet- | :34:29. | :34:35. | |
bombing everyone. I sits on the boards of schools and we have seen | :34:35. | :34:38. | |
applications of students from India plummet, because the message being | :34:38. | :34:45. | |
sent out is that British universities do not want us. The | :34:45. | :34:47. | |
London Metropolitan University, overnight the Borders Agency said | :34:47. | :34:54. | |
you have to get rid of 2500 to 3000 foreign students you have now, that | :34:54. | :35:02. | |
is a police state type action. Most of those students did nothing wrong. | :35:02. | :35:07. | |
It is not just the Duchy College is you are closing down, people coming | :35:07. | :35:11. | |
for dodgy degrees, it is affecting people who should be coming to our | :35:11. | :35:16. | |
top business schools? The overall number of students coming to allow | :35:16. | :35:20. | |
universities was up last year. that the case? The figures I have | :35:20. | :35:26. | |
here was that in the it year to 20th September 12 there were | :35:26. | :35:33. | |
210,921 visas issued for study. That is it for up 26%. The number | :35:34. | :35:38. | |
of students coming to the UK is down, the number of students coming | :35:38. | :35:42. | |
to our universities is up. We have tackled the institutions which were | :35:42. | :35:49. | |
not selling education, they were selling... The number of | :35:49. | :35:54. | |
applications for visas to come to universities is also up. The | :35:54. | :35:58. | |
university sector is being protected. It is the sector where, | :35:58. | :36:03. | |
as Karen said, there was abuse, we are weeding out the abuse. We have | :36:03. | :36:09. | |
far fewer colleges. This fall of 26%, a quarter, is it all down to | :36:10. | :36:17. | |
the closure of the dodgy language schools and the false degrees? | :36:17. | :36:21. | |
because the number of students coming to universities is up. The | :36:21. | :36:25. | |
high quality end of the sector, the best and brightest, to use your | :36:25. | :36:31. | |
language, is going up. Britain is very much open for business. That | :36:31. | :36:35. | |
is what ministers are saying. want to bring you back, we are not | :36:35. | :36:40. | |
just talking about students but we are talking about visas for very | :36:41. | :36:44. | |
talented people. The minister says we are way below the cap, is there | :36:44. | :36:49. | |
any evidence that British companies cannot hire the best and brightest | :36:49. | :36:54. | |
from abroad because of what the Government has done? Yesterday I | :36:54. | :36:57. | |
was at the annual awards of the Bangladesh Caterers Association, | :36:58. | :37:03. | |
the leading restaurant body. That employs over 100,000 people, it is | :37:03. | :37:08. | |
part of our way of life. They cannot recruit staff from a board, | :37:08. | :37:14. | |
in particular, shirts. I know that curry colleges were being set up, | :37:14. | :37:17. | |
including the University of West London, where I was Chancellor, but | :37:17. | :37:22. | |
those things take time to implement. In the meantime, restaurants are | :37:22. | :37:26. | |
suffering, consumers are squeezed, they are trying to survive... | :37:26. | :37:31. | |
have made no apologies for saying you can't bring in people from | :37:31. | :37:35. | |
outside the UK will unskilled and low-skilled. These are skilled | :37:35. | :37:41. | |
people. The migrations... Migration Advisory Committee set up | :37:41. | :37:46. | |
the skills we want people to have. But the industry is saying we are | :37:46. | :37:50. | |
not getting the skills. They listen to people, they don't just sit in | :37:50. | :37:55. | |
Whitehall, they take evidence and listen. Come here if you are | :37:55. | :37:59. | |
skilled, but we are not importing unskilled labour into the labour | :37:59. | :38:05. | |
market. An unrelated matter, related to immigration but not what | :38:06. | :38:10. | |
we're talking about, Romanians and Bulgarians, by the end of next year | :38:10. | :38:14. | |
the transitional restrictions come after and Romanian some Bulgarians | :38:14. | :38:20. | |
will have totally free access to this country the way the Polish had | :38:20. | :38:25. | |
to 10 years or so ago? That's right. And we are not the only country | :38:25. | :38:32. | |
removing transitional controls. you accept that this report by | :38:32. | :38:38. | |
Migrationwatch, it could lead to up to 425,000? That is speculation. | :38:38. | :38:43. | |
When I was asked in the Commons about the forecast, I said it is | :38:43. | :38:46. | |
much better to say it is very difficult to forecast these numbers. | :38:46. | :38:51. | |
I think you alluded to the previous government... They got it totally | :38:51. | :38:55. | |
wrong. But there are a number of European countries with | :38:55. | :38:59. | |
restrictions, they will be releasing them as well. It is a | :38:59. | :39:08. | |
very difficult job. No forecasts? No. Straight answer. Thank you both | :39:08. | :39:13. | |
very much. Goodbye. Now let's look at what will be | :39:13. | :39:17. | |
making the news next -- this week. Today sees the publication of the | :39:17. | :39:20. | |
Home Affairs Select Committee report on drugs, which has made 48 | :39:20. | :39:25. | |
recommendations, including, controversially, urging the | :39:25. | :39:28. | |
Government to consider a system of drug decriminalisation pioneered in | :39:28. | :39:33. | |
Portugal. On Tuesday, there is the | :39:33. | :39:36. | |
Communications Bill. The Lib Dems may yet withdraw support for more | :39:36. | :39:38. | |
police powers to monitor communications. | :39:38. | :39:42. | |
Get you glad rags on tomorrow night, the Chancellor is hosting his | :39:42. | :39:46. | |
annual Christmas drinks. Let's hope he can extend a little more | :39:46. | :39:49. | |
Christmas cheer than his Autumn Statement. | :39:49. | :39:54. | |
On Wednesday it is the penultimate PMQs of the year. For some of you, | :39:54. | :39:57. | |
that means second blast. The parties go head-to-head on | :39:57. | :40:02. | |
Leveson on Thursday. More cross- party talks, I wish -- I bet you | :40:03. | :40:07. | |
can't wait. Statutory underpinning or not? | :40:07. | :40:10. | |
We are joined from outside Westminster by Craig Wood house | :40:10. | :40:14. | |
from the Sun and Rowenna Davis from the New Statesman, looking very | :40:14. | :40:19. | |
cold indeed. Rowenna Davis, I don't know if you heard Harriet Harman, | :40:19. | :40:23. | |
are you comfortable with the Labour idea that judges should become the | :40:23. | :40:27. | |
ultimate arbitrators of press freedom? It is an interesting | :40:27. | :40:31. | |
proposal which has had a reasonably warm welcome, largely because it is | :40:31. | :40:35. | |
quite constructive and has a natural solution, it is reasonably | :40:35. | :40:39. | |
comprehensible, not too long and deals with a chief problem that a | :40:39. | :40:44. | |
lot of the press had which was there was too much involvement of | :40:45. | :40:49. | |
Ofcom. Where I think there are a couple of worries are the role of | :40:49. | :40:53. | |
judges, as you rightly pointed out. Having spoken to colleagues in | :40:53. | :40:57. | |
various newspapers there is a concern that several times in the | :40:57. | :41:02. | |
past with things like injunctions, judges have not always acted in the | :41:02. | :41:05. | |
public interest. Secondly there is a concern about whether this deals | :41:05. | :41:14. | |
with new media sufficiently. A commercial blocks of really big | :41:14. | :41:17. | |
outlets like Guido Fawkes and the Huffington Post will not be obliged | :41:17. | :41:21. | |
to join us. We need a settlement that works with the changing | :41:21. | :41:26. | |
newspaper industry and not just one as we see it today. Is this some | :41:27. | :41:36. | |
happy to have judges as the ultimate arbitrator? -- is the Sun? | :41:36. | :41:40. | |
Whether judges are the right people to hold it to account, we don't | :41:41. | :41:46. | |
necessarily know. The fundamental problem with these proposals today | :41:46. | :41:50. | |
is it still amounts to a statutory underpinning, which the industry | :41:50. | :41:54. | |
and many Conservatives say they will not stomach. It will come to | :41:54. | :41:59. | |
the cross-party talks on Thursday. It certainly moves Labour closer to | :41:59. | :42:02. | |
the Lib Dems by saying they no longer need Ofcom, but I think they | :42:02. | :42:08. | |
will get opposition from people, including David Cameron. Again | :42:08. | :42:12. | |
talking to newspaper colleagues, the settlement does not get agreed | :42:12. | :42:17. | |
soon, that will be the worst thing. Because this odd limbo state exists | :42:17. | :42:20. | |
where the press are trying to report some politicians but | :42:21. | :42:25. | |
politicians are trying to decide whether are not to boot some | :42:25. | :42:30. | |
statutory like -- regulation. Let's move onto gay marriage. Is it | :42:30. | :42:34. | |
doing damage to the Conservatives in the sense that it shows they are | :42:34. | :42:40. | |
quite deeply divided? I'm not really sure what some of these | :42:40. | :42:44. | |
Conservatives are up to. We heard earlier from Peter Bone, who | :42:44. | :42:50. | |
obviously feels strongly, and some others of a strongly religious | :42:50. | :42:54. | |
nature Feely -- clearly feel strongly. But lots of moderates, | :42:54. | :42:58. | |
including David Cameron, say this is the direction they want to lead. | :42:58. | :43:03. | |
I think it is squabbling on the backbenches, but once they become | :43:03. | :43:09. | |
more people forget about them. If it happens in time for 2014, which | :43:09. | :43:13. | |
the Government hopes, it will all be forgotten about by the 2015 | :43:13. | :43:17. | |
general election. Gay marriage does not divide the Labour Party, but | :43:17. | :43:23. | |
what about drug decriminalisation? Will Labour have the guts to accept | :43:23. | :43:27. | |
the recommendations? I really hope so. The whole issue of | :43:27. | :43:30. | |
decriminalisation is one of those issues where the evidence is | :43:30. | :43:34. | |
consistently in its favour and it has always been the politicians | :43:34. | :43:39. | |
refusing to step up to the evidence and take an lead on it. I would | :43:39. | :43:44. | |
hope it will start to happen. You saw on the Today programme... | :43:44. | :43:47. | |
we hope and what happens are often different, what do you think will | :43:47. | :43:52. | |
happen? I don't know what will happen exactly, I think Labour will | :43:52. | :43:57. | |
still discuss it. It is interesting with Ed Miliband at the moment, he | :43:57. | :44:02. | |
is prepared to take on quite a few issues which go against the typical | :44:02. | :44:05. | |
political lines. Whether it has been Leveson or the banks, he has | :44:05. | :44:09. | |
consistently said, let's challenge the frame of the debate at the | :44:09. | :44:15. | |
moment. Most recently on voting on benefit changes, he may go against | :44:15. | :44:18. | |
what is established political law, I hope he does that on drugs. | :44:18. | :44:26. | |
chance, Crich quite -- Chris? don't think so. I think it is a | :44:26. | :44:30. | |
step too far. Ed Miliband's thing is about taking on the vested | :44:30. | :44:36. | |
interests, I don't know what be vested interest is here. We will | :44:36. | :44:41. | |
let you get into some warmth, thank you foreign during the cold and the | :44:41. | :44:47. | |
sirens! They were probably looking for you, or looking for me! | :44:47. | :44:50. | |
Should ministers consider ending criminal penalties for people found | :44:50. | :44:53. | |
with small quantities of drugs if they are going to a treatment | :44:53. | :44:58. | |
programme? The Commons home affairs committee thinks so. A report out | :44:58. | :45:01. | |
today says Britain might benefit from following an approach which | :45:01. | :45:05. | |
has been pioneered in Portugal. It used to be Sweden or Amsterdam we | :45:05. | :45:09. | |
went to, but Portugal is now the new one. What does the Minister | :45:09. | :45:12. | |
thing? The Home Secretary has said she | :45:12. | :45:16. | |
does not think the Royal Commission has the answer at the moment, but | :45:16. | :45:20. | |
the report is a thoughtful, comprehensive and intelligent | :45:20. | :45:23. | |
report. We don't necessarily need to agree with every recommendation | :45:24. | :45:29. | |
and we will analyse it properly, because it has just been published. | :45:29. | :45:34. | |
We want to have an informed policy, informed by fresh thinking and | :45:34. | :45:37. | |
based on the best evidence available so we will look at it | :45:37. | :45:47. | |
:45:47. | :45:54. | ||
We are joined by Paul Uppal, Bridget Phillipson and by Annette | :45:54. | :46:00. | |
Brooke. I think they will look at it. I saw the minister on Skye TV | :46:00. | :46:04. | |
this morning certainly looking at the Portuguese example and said | :46:04. | :46:08. | |
they would look at it. It's important in the grand scheme of | :46:09. | :46:15. | |
things - and I am the father of three children - I know how | :46:16. | :46:22. | |
pertinent it is. I worry about my children being exposed to drugs in | :46:22. | :46:26. | |
the future. Why did they did a Royal Commission is not necessary? | :46:26. | :46:31. | |
There are some positives. Even the report noticed this as well. If you | :46:31. | :46:35. | |
look at 11-15 year olds there are a decline in the numbers of them | :46:35. | :46:39. | |
using these soft drugs, also with the harder drugs there is a decline | :46:39. | :46:44. | |
there. It is important to focus on the two main issues - one is the | :46:44. | :46:48. | |
harder drugs and second are recreational drugs taken at | :46:48. | :46:52. | |
weekends. On both those fronts we are seeing progress. Bridget | :46:52. | :46:58. | |
Phillipson, will Labour grapts this nettle? Is there a con-- grasp this | :46:58. | :47:02. | |
nettle? Is there a convention not to do anything about this? I am a | :47:03. | :47:05. | |
member of the Home Affairs Committee. We are clear that drugs | :47:05. | :47:10. | |
policy is one area to be considered. It is a wide-ranging report, which | :47:10. | :47:14. | |
looks at a number of aspects, treatment, how we enforce, how to | :47:14. | :47:19. | |
get money back where it is laundered through UK banks. The | :47:19. | :47:23. | |
issue of decriminalisation or otherwise is an aspect. It is one | :47:23. | :47:28. | |
that gets the headline. It is why we recommended a Royal Commission. | :47:29. | :47:34. | |
Personally, I was not persuaded by the arguments around | :47:34. | :47:37. | |
decriminalallisation. I know colleagues who visited Portugal | :47:37. | :47:42. | |
were interested by what they saw there. It is not a sanction of free | :47:42. | :47:46. | |
approach in Portugal. Members were impressed by what was being done | :47:46. | :47:49. | |
there, in making sure we address the consequences properly. There is | :47:49. | :47:54. | |
still a problem, in this country, with how we treat people who are | :47:54. | :47:58. | |
using drugs, including alcohol. I see that with the work I do as an | :47:58. | :48:02. | |
MP. We have a long way to address that, to make sure people get the | :48:03. | :48:06. | |
right treatment they need, so they are not a victim of crime. | :48:06. | :48:12. | |
Liberal Democrats have traditionally been, how shall I put | :48:12. | :48:22. | |
it! Liberal on this matter. You have the legalise cannabis | :48:22. | :48:27. | |
motion - and they rush to hose it down. The grown-up party should say | :48:27. | :48:32. | |
we should look at the evidence. It cannot be said that the | :48:32. | :48:36. | |
reclassification of drugs under the last Government was based on | :48:36. | :48:39. | |
scientific evidence. I have to admit I feel strongly we should be | :48:39. | :48:44. | |
looking at the evidence, but then, as a parent, I get tugged. I think | :48:44. | :48:49. | |
we should look at all these projects. We're not doing well. We | :48:49. | :48:54. | |
have the vicious circle with people taking drugs, stealing, into jail, | :48:54. | :48:59. | |
more drug-taking and on we go, on and on. It surprised me official | :48:59. | :49:04. | |
figures show official drug use in England and Wales is at the lowest | :49:05. | :49:11. | |
rate since 1996. That is surprising. That is encouraging. You are on the | :49:11. | :49:17. | |
committee - why is that? It shows that decriminalisation is not the | :49:17. | :49:20. | |
answer. Why they use drugs and cause harms to themselves and | :49:20. | :49:25. | |
others is complex. The work I did before I was an MP, working with | :49:25. | :49:29. | |
people who were homeless is people use drugs because of trauma in | :49:29. | :49:33. | |
their lives and because of poverty. The action that Labour took to try | :49:33. | :49:38. | |
and work with families to stop that happening and to address the root | :49:38. | :49:45. | |
causes did lead to a decline in drug use. These declines in use, | :49:45. | :49:48. | |
notwithstanding - the war on drugs has been lost, not just in this | :49:48. | :49:52. | |
country, it has been lost across the Western world, in the United | :49:52. | :49:56. | |
States. Shouldn't politicians be prepared to be more radical than | :49:56. | :50:01. | |
just say more of the same? I think it is important to look at the | :50:01. | :50:11. | |
:50:11. | :50:13. | ||
causes we are looking at here. There's a three tronged report. You | :50:14. | :50:20. | |
-- those who have drug dependency, wean them off that. I know I heard | :50:20. | :50:24. | |
you speaking there - I met somebody who was in prison for most of his | :50:24. | :50:29. | |
adult life, when I became an MP. He said the main thing which got him | :50:29. | :50:36. | |
off drugs was a stable family life. Those are the fundamentals. | :50:36. | :50:41. | |
word is moving here - Washington State have become the first to | :50:41. | :50:49. | |
legalise marijuana. At election time a number of pleb cysts, voted | :50:49. | :50:59. | |
:50:59. | :51:01. | ||
for a more -- a number of plebisites voted for a more... You | :51:01. | :51:06. | |
would like a Royal Commission? happy looking across the board. We | :51:06. | :51:11. | |
have to look at different types of drugs, because obviously new ones | :51:11. | :51:19. | |
are emerging, switching from one to the other. I don't think it is as | :51:19. | :51:25. | |
simple as decriminalising cannabis. How did you miss the trip to | :51:25. | :51:31. | |
Portugal? I had just had a baby. Now, hip, hip, hooray for the | :51:31. | :51:36. | |
European Union, who today formally accepted the Nobel Peace Prize at a | :51:36. | :51:40. | |
ceremony in Norway. David Cameron declined to go, but the Deputy | :51:40. | :51:44. | |
Prime Minister, he couldn't wait. The EU was given the award for its | :51:44. | :51:49. | |
role in united Europe after two world wars. Some of the more | :51:49. | :51:54. | |
cynical may say that the award is inappropriate at a time when the EU | :51:54. | :51:59. | |
is struggling with the financial crisis. You are just a bunch of | :51:59. | :52:05. | |
meanys. Here is Nigel Farage. utterly bemused. We saw Angela | :52:05. | :52:10. | |
Merkel going to Athens, people dressed up in Nazi uniforms and a | :52:10. | :52:16. | |
feeling of mutual disgust, which has grown up between Germany and | :52:16. | :52:20. | |
Greece. I find it absolutely baffeling that the EU could have | :52:20. | :52:26. | |
been awarded this prize. Frankly, it brings the Nobel Prize into | :52:26. | :52:32. | |
total disrepute. Were you baffled? That was quite a long baffled! | :52:32. | :52:36. | |
you baffled when you heard the news? It was something I didn't see | :52:36. | :52:42. | |
coming. I didn't expect that one. Were you baffled when you heard it, | :52:42. | :52:49. | |
high the EU got the prize? It is unusual to award it for an | :52:49. | :52:51. | |
institution as opposed to an individual. We saw greater | :52:51. | :52:57. | |
integration, it was for a good reason. It emerged from the horror | :52:57. | :53:01. | |
of war. Many people disagree with how Europe has gone since. I am a | :53:01. | :53:06. | |
support of Britain having a strong role in Europe. Shouldn't we have | :53:06. | :53:10. | |
given it to NATO? That kept the peace. Europe doesn't do it by | :53:11. | :53:16. | |
itself, but no, I don't think it is a bad thing to have done it. | :53:16. | :53:24. | |
has said, political satire become obs leet when Harry kissing ger was | :53:25. | :53:31. | |
awarded the Nobel Prize. A lot of people in the country dislike the | :53:31. | :53:36. | |
EU and reading about it, don't feel comfortable about this. It is an | :53:36. | :53:41. | |
institution which needs reforming - absolutely! But I think we can look | :53:41. | :53:46. | |
back on a relative 70 years of peace in Europe. Would you put it | :53:46. | :53:52. | |
down to the EU or to the spread of demock rasy and the NATO defence | :53:52. | :53:56. | |
system? -- democracy and the NATO defence system? All things have to | :53:56. | :54:01. | |
come together. I remember learning about the heartland, which would be | :54:01. | :54:06. | |
a battle to get control over the centre of Europe. It is quite a | :54:06. | :54:12. | |
weak one overall, but you can match that to what was happening with the | :54:12. | :54:16. | |
power based around Germany. By balancing strengths out across the | :54:16. | :54:20. | |
EU, that has been important. Those critics who say, oh, it should just | :54:20. | :54:25. | |
be a trade treaty, would obviously not see that as appropriate. It | :54:26. | :54:29. | |
always surprises me when one is door-knocking and a member of the | :54:29. | :54:35. | |
Liberal Democrats says, you are favour -- in favour of the EU. Look | :54:35. | :54:41. | |
at what you are doing to us. I reply back. But we have had peace | :54:41. | :54:47. | |
for 70 years. That is something to be valued. You must, as a Tory, be | :54:47. | :54:57. | |
:54:57. | :54:57. | ||
proud that Winstonure hill has been ooze en? I always have a warm glow | :54:57. | :55:05. | |
many my heart when we mention Winston Churchill. Equally a noble | :55:05. | :55:12. | |
recipient could have been NATO. It was just an idea that flooded | :55:12. | :55:19. | |
into my mind! Great minds think alike. Let's talk about the fate of | :55:19. | :55:25. | |
Britain's most famous MP - not David Cameron, but Nadine. She | :55:25. | :55:33. | |
travelled to the jung toll take part in I'm a celebrity get me out | :55:33. | :55:43. | |
of here. They withdraw the whip. Yesterday she told the Sunday | :55:43. | :55:48. | |
Politics why she took part. Children run up to me with their | :55:48. | :55:54. | |
mobile phones and say, Are you an MP?" what is it like to eat a | :55:54. | :55:59. | |
spider N Westminster, back in the corridor of powers, my name has | :55:59. | :56:03. | |
been removed from the Conservative Party's website list of MPs. In | :56:03. | :56:07. | |
2015, a whole new generation of voters will go into the voting | :56:07. | :56:12. | |
booth in Mid-Beds put a cross next to my name and know who they are | :56:12. | :56:17. | |
voting for. Far from being a disaster, I'm a celebrity - with a | :56:17. | :56:22. | |
total success. I have no regrets and I would do it all again. Well, | :56:22. | :56:27. | |
today she meets the Chief Whip. So, what should her fate be? Should she | :56:27. | :56:33. | |
get the whip back? That is above my pay grade actually, Andrew. | :56:33. | :56:38. | |
must have a view. I have a view on this and I know I watched this | :56:38. | :56:41. | |
yesterday on TV. Is this for her or for the Conservative Party? I'm | :56:41. | :56:46. | |
going to quote Ronnie Wood on this - I am not sure - he said of all | :56:46. | :56:50. | |
the addictions in life. I think he's done most of them, of all the | :56:50. | :56:55. | |
vices. H said the most famous one is fame. I think politicians can | :56:55. | :56:58. | |
get addicted to seeing themselves in black and white that can be a | :56:58. | :57:02. | |
dangerous think. If we are talking about drugs and linking this in, | :57:02. | :57:07. | |
maybe she has gone from a soft user into a hard user in terms of media | :57:07. | :57:12. | |
addiction. Is she good for bad for the Torys? She is certainly | :57:12. | :57:15. | |
interesting. She has strong views on a number of issues. I respect | :57:15. | :57:19. | |
the fact she has those views. However, I don't think we should | :57:19. | :57:23. | |
confuse the job we do with being a celebrity. I think she is in the | :57:23. | :57:31. | |
risk of confusing that. She has an important job. She would be better | :57:31. | :57:36. | |
serving kirpblts out of the -- constituents out of the jungle. | :57:36. | :57:40. | |
Is fame necessarily going to mean you will make achievements? | :57:40. | :57:47. | |
Politicians here are to change things. This will disappear. | :57:47. | :57:53. | |
Putting your own views aside, what in general is the view of | :57:53. | :58:01. | |
backbenchers to here? She has a lot of school children asking who she | :58:01. | :58:05. | |
was and what it was like eating a spider. We will see this story | :58:05. | :58:08. | |
unfold. There's just time before we go to | :58:08. | :58:13. | |
find out the answer to our quiz. What luxury item would Eric Pickles | :58:13. | :58:23. | |
:58:23. | :58:27. | ||
take with him if he got stuck in a What is the correct answer? Does | :58:27. | :58:33. | |
anybody know? I thought you would mention curry. I have to go for the | :58:33. | :58:38. | |
pork pie. The correct answer is Earl Grey tea. You can cut out the | :58:38. | :58:42. | |
bin collections. Thank to all the guests being here. The news is | :58:42. | :58:46. | |
starting on BBC One now. Jo will be here tomorrow at noon, with all the | :58:46. | :58:50. |