18/01/2013 Daily Politics


18/01/2013

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Good morning, welcome to the Daily Politics. The hostage crisis is

:00:44.:00:48.

still unfolding this morning, but some foreign workers, including

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British Aris ditches, have been freed, with other still being held

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by terrorists as Algerian forces continue their controversial

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operation. -- including British hostages.

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It was the most long awaited speech of modern political times, but

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instead of talking Europe in Amsterdam, the Prime Minister had

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to make a statement on Algeria in the Commons this morning. We will

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show you what he said about Algeria and what he was planning to say on

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Europe. And after this former minister

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compared his old boss Michael Gove to a sitcom character, unnamed

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government sources called Tim Loughton a lazy, incompetent

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:01:38.:01:40.

narcissist. What is going on at the All that in the next hour. With us

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for the first half of the programme, Spectator editor Fraser Nelson, and

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former Liberal Democrat press secretary and editor of an online

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newspaper for young people like me, Miranda Green. What are you

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laughing at? I would not dream of it! The Prime Minister should have

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been in Amsterdam this morning unveiling his plan to repatriate

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powers from Brussels and maybe even give us a promise of a euro

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referendum. Instead, at 11am, he made a statement to the House about

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the unfolding hostage situation in Algeria. Mr Speaker, during the

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course of Thursday morning, the Algerian forces mounted an

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operation. Mr Speaker, we were not informed of this in advance. I was

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told by the Algeria Prime Minister while it was taking place. He said

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the terrorists had tried to flee, that they judged there was an

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immediate threat to the hostages, and had felt obliged to respond.

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When I spoke to the Algerian Prime Minister last night, he told me

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this first operation was complete, but this is a large and complex

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site and they are still pursuing terrorists and possibly some of the

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hostages in other areas of the site. The Algerian Prime Minister has

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told me this morning they are looking at all possible routes to

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resolve the crisis. Mr Speaker, last night the number of British

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citizens at risk was less than 30. Thankfully, we now know that number

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has been quite significantly reduced, and I'm sure the House

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will understand why, during an ongoing operation, I cannot say

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more on this at this stage. That was the prime minister leaving many

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questions unanswered, despite that statement, so let's talked to Chris

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Mason, who I hope can tell us more. He is in a very snowy London, as

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you can see. The Prime Minister did give us more information, but I do

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not yet have a clear picture of how many hostages have been liberated,

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how many are still in captivity, and how many have become fatalities.

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Yes, there are two strands to the uncertainties in all of this.

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Firstly, there has been repeated statements from the Foreign Office

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and from Downing Street that have emphasised that they have a limited

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amount of information, and then added to that is the inevitable

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caution from the Prime Minister in how much of the information he is

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aware of he is willing to make public, given that this is an

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ongoing situation, given that there still are a good number of hostages,

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including a good number from the UK, who are still being held. The key

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fact that we learnt in the statement from the Prime Minister,

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and he stood on his feet taking questions now, one hour into taking

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questions from backbenchers, is that last night less than 30

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Britons were being held hostage. Now that number is, as we heard,

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significantly reduced, but we do not have a specific number. Chris,

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do we have any idea yet of British casualties? No. In specific terms,

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we do not, beyond the initial announcement that a Briton had been

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killed, beyond hearing that there was a man from Northern Ireland, a

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career of an Irish passport, he was freed, we do not have any more

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information. As I say, those two strands to the uncertainty mean

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that we are learning a limited amount in the statement in the last

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hour. There is an expectation, the Prime Minister said, that he hopes

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he may be able to say a little bit more later today, but there is real

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understandable nervousness within the Foreign Office about too much

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information coming out too soon and potentially imperilling the lives

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of those who are still there. Frustration, too, Andrew, about the

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procedure adopted by the Algerian government, the Algerian forces, a

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sense that the Prime Minister really wanted to hear in advance

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that they were going to attempt a rescue mission, and he only found

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out what it was under way once it was already under way to. There was

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a clear sense in the Prime Minister's tone that he would have

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liked to have known in advance, and that British special forces could

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have been involved, they were certainly available. Thank you very

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much for that update, very interesting, on the ongoing hostage

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situation with British lives still at stake, and the developing

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relationship between Britain and Algeria. To discuss the crisis, we

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are joined by the chair of the foreign affairs select committee

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Richard Ottaway. Are you surprised that the Algerians went ahead with

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this operation without even informing the British or other

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countries involved, never mind involving them? Good morning. No. I

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think it is barely understandable, when you have got a clandestine

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operation going on that you do not give notice in advance, much as

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other countries, no matter how much they may be affected, may want to

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be involved. As far as the special forces are concerned, the Algerians

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are, you know, they have got a pretty efficient military machine,

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and I'm sure they have the capacity to conduct the operation themselves.

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Frankly, it is far from certain that if the SAS had been involved

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it would have had a different outcome. We do not seem to have

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much influence over Algeria. They are not a member of the EU, we have

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a good bilateral relationship with them, there is no lack of harmony

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in our relationship with Algeria at the moment, and this is a very

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complex, fast-moving operation here, and I think we have got to give

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them the benefit of the doubt. you in any doubt... Last night on

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BBC One's This Week, Kofi Annan said he was in no doubt that the

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terrorist action in Algeria was linked to the French intervention

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in Mali. What is your view? I think this is something we have got to

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look at now. There is a whole change in the character of the

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region going on here as Al-Qaeda have been moved out of Afghanistan

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and Pakistan, moving into Somalia, Nigeria, Mali, Algeria, and I think

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we have got to rethink our strategy here, and much closer co-operation

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is required between the intelligence services, military

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organisations, and diplomatically. Although some people do not like

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the phrase, you get the sense this is the latest front in the war on

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terror. That is right, and I think it is really interesting that

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everyone was so excited about the Arab Spring, but partly because

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they got a bit of democracy in the region might take the pressure

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towards Islamism away, but actually, the Arab Spring having happened,

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this explosion of Islamist activity has taken place anyway, so it is an

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enormous challenge not just for the West, but for the rest of Africa.

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The one thing we learn is that it is, in some way, a knock-on effect

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from events in Libya, because after the Gaddafi regime collapsed, the

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number of these people had been closer to Gaddafi moved south.

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Apparently, they raided all the arms dump, so they were incredibly

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well armed, they moved into Mali and dominated the north of that,

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enough to be able to move south and threaten the capital. I think what

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we are seeing, what we had thought was a fairly straightforward

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operation of Libya that got rid of Colonel Gaddafi has started a chain

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reaction. The first phase was having these nomadic mercenaries,

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moving south with their heavy armour, and the Algerian government

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said that the attempt at the gas terminal was in response to the

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French action in Mali. It looks right now as if this was a well

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organised and deliberate retaliation to the French action,

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which raises the question, if this is how they are going to respond,

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not by attacking French soldiers but raiding Western interests and

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the rest of Africa, then similar fields in Morocco, Libya and

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Nigeria would also be at risk. I think David Cameron is realising

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that Libya was the start of something but we are not seen the

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end. I have just been told that Alex Salmond has been discussing

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the Scottish hostages in the gas compound, the Scots have been freed,

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we are waiting to hear about the rest of the British hostages who

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are still there. Should we be giving more, and by week, I do not

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just mean Britain, but the European Union and the United States, should

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we be giving the French more support in Mali? Well, we have a

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bilateral agreement with the French, and we would give them whatever

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they asked for, because we have undertaken to do so in a military

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treaty. If they ask for blitz on the ground, would we give them

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that? -- Boots. There is co- operation with the French in the

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treaty, it is not like NATO where an attack on one is an attack on

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the other, but there is an understanding that these matters

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are under discussion. We would not give them everything they would ask

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for, we would consider in a friendly way what they ask for, but

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if they ask for the Black Watch, we would not give them that without a

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big debate, would we? I did not think it has got to that point at

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the moment, and indeed we would be reluctant to put feet underground

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just when we will be drawing troops out of Afghanistan. -- feet on the

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ground. So are the French. They had a much smaller commitment and are

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already out now. You know, you actually have to watch and see what

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is going on in both these operations. If I can go back way

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point raised by both Fraser and Miranda about has Libya triggered

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something, if you urge democracy on countries like Libya and Egypt, you

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have got to accept what it throws up. What we have got there is

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moderate Islam, and these are Islamist we can and have to do

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business with. It does not necessarily follow that radical

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Islam will come out of that. I think actually you have got a more

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sinister operation going on which is opportunistic, and I think they

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are making a fair point, but I think it would be a mistake to say

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that because Islamic democracy has arrived, that means fundamentalist

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Islam will follow. But it certainly takes the lead of other Islamist

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pressures. We in the West like these countries with nice, tidy

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borders, but that is not the way they work, tried to move across

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borders, and people are saying in Syria, let's help the rebels, but

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we are not thinking about the knock-on effects. I think we are

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too quick to think, let's get rid of the bad guy, without thinking of

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the consequences. That is exactly the point I was going to make, it

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is also to do with these being very mobile people, moving across a

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continent to find the most convenient and conducive home from

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which to export terrorism. Clearly, Mali became something akin to

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Afghanistan. There is no Islamist democracy in Algeria or Mali.

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is democracy in Algeria. His there? Yes, you have a parliament and a

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government. We had a parliament in Moscow! Democracy comes in...

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certainly none in Mali, they had a military coup. Democracy comes in

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many forms. Going back to Syria macro, the reason the British

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government is hesitating about Syria, they are far from certain

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about who the opposition is now, its nature and its composition.

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Britain has endorsed them. We have endorsed the transitional council,

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which is not necessarily the same as the people fighting on the

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ground. So why have we endorse the transitional council if we do not

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know who they are? Because ultimately we do think that Assad

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will fall and we want to be in there, trying to influence them as

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soon as possible. You want to be on the winning side. We always want to

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be on the winning side. Listening to the Prime Minister today, he was

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talking in very general terms about the Islamic threat in Africa, and

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it was very resident of the language we use about Al-Qaeda in

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Afghanistan, these guys are a threat, they will come and get as

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later, and part of me wonders of Mali may be David Cameron's third

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war. Tony Blair at five, didn't he? Why should he hold back?! Thank you

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for being with us, Richard Ottaway. The PM's euros thoughts have been a

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long time coming, and thanks to events in Algeria, we will have to

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wait still longer. Well, not quite. Well-placed stories in this

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morning's newspapers of a sneak preview of the speech because they

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were handed out by Downing Street when they still thought the speech

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was going ahead. It was not cancelled until early in the

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evening. They reveal the Prime Minister plan to talk about his

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growing frustration with Europe, there's a surprise, highlighting

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three issues. First, the economic problems in the eurozone which are

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pushing Europe towards closer integration. Second, a crisis of

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European competitiveness, as other nations across the world saw ahead.

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Third, a gap between Europe and its citizens which is growing ever

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wider. That has led to a lack of democratic accountability and

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consents that is felt particularly acutely in Britain. Finally, he

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planned a stark warning, if we do not address these challenges, the

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danger is that Europe will fail and the British people will drift

:15:04.:15:14.
:15:14.:15:20.

It is strange that we're able to tell you what is in a speech even

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though the speech will not be delivered this morning. Fraser

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Nelson, what do you make of the content of what he was planning to

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say? This was like a good Eurovision Song contest entry,

:15:33.:15:37.

something designed to resonate across borders. You have got to hit

:15:37.:15:42.

both the domestic and foreign audience. He was saying that Europe

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needs to reform and Britain is one of the good guys. You want us in

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the EU because we will be encouraged in this process that you

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all want. But there was not much detail. The key points in the

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speech are still those that James Forsyth outlined in the Spectator a

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couple of weeks ago. There will be re negotiation before 2018. That

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will be contingent on a Tory majority which is the biggest if in

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the whole equation. The tone of these excerpts that we have is

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quite Europe friendly? He is trying to have it both ways. He wants to

:16:24.:16:31.

feed red meat to his backbenchers, but he is also saying to pro-

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Europeans, if it gets better, we will stay in. Yes. The Prime

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Minister seems to me like somebody who is having a relationship crisis

:16:42.:16:50.

and taking bad advice from a friend in a pub. In this case, that friend

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is the wing of the party who is very hostile to Europe. They are

:16:54.:16:59.

saying, you have got to give them an ultimatum. That does not really

:16:59.:17:05.

work. That gets you into a negative situation. That alone would not

:17:05.:17:11.

have pleased a lot of his own backbenchers. No, and it was not

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intended to. The very fact that he wanted to find some random location

:17:16.:17:21.

in Europe to give the speech was a message that it was for the people

:17:21.:17:29.

back home and those people in Europe as well. He can dress it up

:17:29.:17:38.

however he wants, but his party will not like it. Do you know where

:17:38.:17:44.

he is on the referendum? Now it is mac. Fraser assured us this morning

:17:44.:17:48.

as many people have done that David Cameron does not want Britain to

:17:48.:17:54.

leave the European Union. He said so himself. Indeed. We take it on

:17:54.:18:00.

trust. It may be true. There is this danger of drifting out. Ed

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Miliband, to his credit, has expressed his very eloquently in

:18:05.:18:10.

the last few weeks. The problem is that his strategy to manage the

:18:10.:18:17.

situation of his own backbenchers is very risky. You introduce a

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referendum, this idea of renegotiation, which is very

:18:19.:18:25.

dangerous. It may not work. You may not be able to offer people

:18:25.:18:29.

something in a referendum that will satisfy at that particular wing of

:18:29.:18:35.

opinion. Then you have to offer them another referendum. It will

:18:35.:18:41.

keep us in a job! Why are we even speaking about this? It is all

:18:41.:18:45.

predicated on Mr Cameron winning an overall majority, not just getting

:18:45.:18:51.

back into power. The Liberal Democrats would not let him go down

:18:51.:18:55.

this road again. The bookies will not give you good odds on that at

:18:55.:19:04.

the moment. They will give you 4-1. It is more likely that Scotland

:19:04.:19:09.

will vote to go independent. It is more likely that Nick Clegg will be

:19:09.:19:14.

gone before Christmas. It is more likely that the royal baby will be

:19:15.:19:24.
:19:25.:19:29.

born blonde. That threw me. Off all the many IFS, this is the biggest

:19:29.:19:34.

one. When David Cameron comes back he will be under pressure to say

:19:34.:19:39.

that any government he reads will have his referendum. Even if he

:19:39.:19:44.

goes into a coalition of Liberal- Democrats. As always under these

:19:44.:19:48.

circumstances, I wanted to ask where the postponement of the

:19:48.:19:54.

speech leaves us. Is this an advantage to Mr Cameron, or having

:19:54.:19:58.

marched all his men to the top of the hell, he has now marched them

:19:58.:20:04.

down again? Does he have to march them back up? I think he probably

:20:04.:20:11.

does. This adds to the uncertainty. That is very damaging for the UK.

:20:11.:20:16.

They is pressure on the currency at the moment. Our allies do not know

:20:16.:20:22.

where we stand and there is panic in Washington. There is irritation

:20:22.:20:30.

among our EU allies. It could be a damp squib? I suspect it will be.

:20:30.:20:35.

No one mentions public opinion. Only one-third of people in this

:20:35.:20:45.
:20:45.:20:45.

country think that membership of the EU is a good idea. I think you

:20:45.:20:50.

have to be cautious about that. If you look at the recent YouGov

:20:50.:20:55.

opinion poll, it is moving in the other direction. When you start to

:20:55.:21:05.

speak about the cost of leaving the EU, it starts to go the other way.

:21:05.:21:09.

Finally, on this issue, I understand the Prime Minister says

:21:09.:21:13.

that if he does get this overall majority, he wants to repatriate

:21:13.:21:21.

parks. On the assumption he does that, I think he would then let us

:21:21.:21:31.
:21:31.:21:32.

have a referendum. -- he wants to repatriate powers. If we vote no,

:21:32.:21:39.

what have we voted for? To leave, to exercise air writes. Maybe

:21:39.:21:44.

people will say, I quite like it the way it is. There will not be

:21:44.:21:49.

three options, there will be two questions. Does he realise that?

:21:49.:21:54.

Absolutely. That is the implication when he is speaking about the

:21:54.:21:58.

British exit. He has to focus their minds if you will not get through

:21:58.:22:03.

the negotiation. And we will have more on the speech

:22:03.:22:05.

that never was a little later in the programme.

:22:05.:22:09.

If you are a smoker, it is currently the NHS's job to help you

:22:09.:22:15.

quit. But from April, that responsibility shifts to local

:22:15.:22:17.

councils. So should those council workers' pensions be invested in

:22:18.:22:20.

tobacco stocks? Local authorities in the West Midlands have put

:22:20.:22:23.

nearly �130 million into cigarette companies and many others across

:22:23.:22:25.

the country have similar investments. It is a nice little

:22:25.:22:33.

earner but have they allowed their ethics to go up in smoke?

:22:33.:22:39.

Last year, smoking killed around 80,000 people in England. Latest

:22:39.:22:43.

figures show it cost the NHS more than �5 billion treating related

:22:43.:22:50.

diseases. That is why the NHS are keen to get the message across to

:22:50.:22:56.

smokers to quit. I tried it on my own but I was never successful. Oil

:22:56.:23:01.

was started smoking, especially during the holidays. Having someone

:23:01.:23:07.

to speak to you and encourage you was better. Because of the way the

:23:07.:23:11.

NHS is being reorganised, in April it will be your local councillor

:23:11.:23:18.

who will be responsible for stopping people smoking. But I have

:23:18.:23:22.

discovered via a series of Freedom of Information Act quiz, that

:23:22.:23:30.

councils in the West Midlands are or investing up to nearly �130

:23:30.:23:36.

million in tobacco companies through their pension pots. --

:23:36.:23:45.

Freedom of Information request. They are trying to persuade people

:23:45.:23:51.

to give up the product at the same time as this. What is the point?

:23:51.:23:54.

You could argue that their campaigning against their own

:23:54.:23:58.

interests as they are going along. They have got to get rid of the

:23:58.:24:04.

conflict of interest. Councils are currently investing �21 million in

:24:04.:24:08.

tobacco companies. They say it is because they have got to get the

:24:08.:24:13.

best deal possible for their pensioners. Some people think there

:24:13.:24:19.

is a conflict, but I do not think there is. We have an administrative

:24:19.:24:24.

function rather than a political one. We administer the pension fund

:24:24.:24:28.

and remind ourselves that this is the money of pensioners, not the

:24:28.:24:35.

money from the council. We try to get the best return we can. There

:24:35.:24:40.

is method in what some are describing as the council's madness.

:24:40.:24:44.

Over the past decade, tobacco stocks have done twice as well as

:24:44.:24:47.

the rest of the market and there had been to pay for a happy

:24:47.:24:55.

retirement for many workers. Across Warwickshire, councils hold tobacco

:24:55.:25:00.

shares worth seven. Million pounds. Councils in Staffordshire hold �31

:25:00.:25:05.

million, and the councils of the West Midlands have almost �60

:25:05.:25:10.

million. Will they change their tune? Staffordshire are the only

:25:10.:25:15.

authority promising a review. For the others, it seems that tobacco

:25:15.:25:21.

is a hard habit to kick. I think that is a good story. I am

:25:21.:25:27.

amazed at these councils investing in tobacco companies. I thought

:25:27.:25:30.

they were so politically aware that they would check with your money is

:25:30.:25:37.

going. Absolutely. Recently they got in trouble with ill-advised

:25:37.:25:42.

investments in Iceland. They lost a lot of public money. You would

:25:42.:25:46.

think that in the wake of that they would have gone through all their

:25:46.:25:50.

investments and wake up with they were wise Finance Lee, like the

:25:50.:25:54.

Iceland mistake, but also whether they were ethical. This will be

:25:54.:26:00.

hard to defend. The devil has the best investments. The highest rate

:26:00.:26:08.

of return! The European Union condemns smoking but still

:26:08.:26:13.

subsidises tobacco manufacturers. Some of the most potent tobacco

:26:13.:26:21.

that the world makes, be subsidised as the ghost of it. -- and they

:26:21.:26:27.

subsidise the production office. It is dumped in Africa. I think that

:26:27.:26:30.

this report will probably trigger most councils to have a late

:26:30.:26:35.

because it is not just tobacco, it is a whole lot of things. If you

:26:35.:26:40.

want an ethical Investment Portfolio, they are available, but

:26:40.:26:46.

they do not pay as much. More on a curious story we looked

:26:46.:26:52.

at yesterday. You may recall that former Children's Minister Tim

:26:52.:26:55.

Loughton created a stir earlier in the week when he criticised his

:26:55.:27:01.

former boss, Michael Gove. You can never have too much of a good thing

:27:01.:27:04.

so before we hear about the latest twist in this tale, here is a

:27:04.:27:08.

reminder of what he told the Education Select Committee. There

:27:08.:27:13.

is an upstairs downstairs mentality in the department. The ministers

:27:13.:27:18.

are all on the 7th floor. Officials are summoned to her office when I

:27:18.:27:25.

just wanted to have a quick chat. If I wanted to do that, the meeting

:27:25.:27:28.

had to go in the diary. Occasionally I went to another

:27:28.:27:33.

flower and it was like a state visit. Most officials have never

:27:33.:27:38.

met the Secretary of State, other than when he will troop out some

:27:38.:27:44.

chosen people for the new year party, like Mr Grace from Grace

:27:44.:27:48.

Brothers, to tell us we have all done terribly well.

:27:48.:27:51.

How has that gone down in the Department For Education? Not well

:27:51.:27:55.

is the answer. Fraser's magazine, the Spectator, carried a story

:27:55.:27:57.

yesterday quoting an unnamed government source who did not hold

:27:57.:28:00.

back when it came to Mr Loughton. back when it came to Mr Loughton.

:28:00.:28:10.
:28:10.:28:22.

back when it came to Mr Loughton. Some of that was clearly

:28:22.:28:25.

unparliamentary language but there is a little bit of confusion around

:28:25.:28:29.

about what our next parliamentarian was getting at in a Commons debate.

:28:29.:28:32.

Here is Christchurch MP Christopher Chope in the House of Commons

:28:32.:28:40.

yesterday. Before I do that, let's get your reaction. This was a

:28:40.:28:47.

senior Department source. This was not an off-the-cuff reaction. They

:28:47.:28:51.

have been looking with increasing anger at the pauses that Tim

:28:51.:28:57.

Loughton has been striking since he left. I think he thought he could

:28:57.:29:01.

take a free hit at his old department, and slag off his old

:29:01.:29:06.

boss. He has found out that you cannot do that and not expect some

:29:06.:29:11.

form of retaliation, especially if you're playing a card that your

:29:11.:29:17.

colleagues do not believe you were ever entitled to play. What would

:29:17.:29:21.

you advise Tim Loughton to say in retaliation? I would not give him

:29:22.:29:28.

any advice because this is so much fun. That quote is every

:29:28.:29:38.
:29:38.:29:38.

journalists's dream. The Department for Education has been extremely

:29:38.:29:42.

good under Michael Gove at making enemies. It now seems to be quite

:29:42.:29:48.

good at making enemies even of former ministers. I think they are

:29:48.:29:57.

slightly too happy. Michael Gove is such a gentle man. It is almost

:29:57.:30:02.

impossible to think of him saying a bad word about anybody, but that is

:30:02.:30:12.
:30:12.:30:12.

not to say that the rest of his I dined, on all three nights, in

:30:12.:30:22.
:30:22.:30:25.

the dining rooms, and almost nobody But the service was absolutely

:30:25.:30:28.

fantastic, Mr Speaker, because there was three servants for each

:30:28.:30:38.
:30:38.:30:40.

person sitting down. Yes! Exactly! Can the Tories ever learn, plebs

:30:40.:30:45.

and now servants? That was a slip of the tongue, I am sure he sat

:30:45.:30:50.

down, it will look terrible, because it revives memories of

:30:50.:30:55.

plebgate and stuff, but I think this simply was a man taking a

:30:55.:31:00.

alliteration a little bit too far. Well, he got out of it by saying,

:31:00.:31:04.

we are all servants! Would you buy that? It would have been better to

:31:04.:31:10.

say it was a slip of the town, the word is waiter. It was probably not

:31:10.:31:14.

meant in a derogatory way, but it does not help, because when a

:31:14.:31:17.

Conservative politician is overheard making a remark like this,

:31:17.:31:24.

it adds to the impression of them being out-of-touch toffs.

:31:24.:31:27.

Christopher Chope lets the cat out of the back by referring to House

:31:27.:31:33.

of Commons waiters as servants! The Tories cannot escape this class

:31:33.:31:37.

trope, can they? They are vulnerable to this attack, and

:31:37.:31:41.

David Cameron fears is more than anything else. This is their state

:31:41.:31:46.

of Kryptonite to wave against him, and he just cowers. Similarly, they

:31:46.:31:51.

cannot handle it very well. They should have said, first off, sorry,

:31:51.:31:56.

there are millions of waiters in this country, and the idea that the

:31:56.:32:02.

Tories consider them servants is manna from heaven for Labour.

:32:02.:32:07.

easy how little slips of the tongue can be stared up into real rows.

:32:07.:32:11.

Upstairs downstairs again, it is not a good luck for the Tory party.

:32:11.:32:16.

OK, do we have any idea now, coming back to the Prime Minister, when

:32:16.:32:22.

this speech is going to be re scheduled? We don't. It is hard to

:32:22.:32:25.

believe he's going to wait more than another week. We already know

:32:25.:32:29.

the key points, we have seen phrases from it. If he leaves it

:32:29.:32:33.

more than seven days, it is going to become even more of a farce that

:32:33.:32:38.

it was a few days ago. He needs to visit Disneyland, somewhere in

:32:38.:32:42.

Europe, give it and come back. does he have to go to Europe to

:32:42.:32:47.

give it? It was supposed to be the symbolism, I am here, I am

:32:47.:32:51.

committed, still part of the club, I want us to remain in, but I think

:32:51.:32:58.

you are right, he should just get on and give the speech and move on.

:32:58.:33:02.

Can he do that old trick of a letter to his constituents which

:33:02.:33:07.

never gets to his constituents? Liam Fox does that. I don't know.

:33:07.:33:12.

He is going to have to... I think he has got a mild case of

:33:12.:33:16.

microphone phobia, the needs to get in front of it and come out with it.

:33:17.:33:20.

We will leave at there and see what happens. Thank you both for being

:33:21.:33:25.

with me today. Coming up in a moment, our monthly look at what

:33:25.:33:29.

has been happening in European politics, but for now it is time to

:33:29.:33:33.

say goodbye to my two guests, Fraser Nelson and Miranda Green.

:33:33.:33:37.

This week members of the European Parliament have been meeting in

:33:37.:33:40.

Strasbourg for their regular plenary session, so what have they

:33:40.:33:44.

been getting up to, and what else has been happening? Here's our

:33:44.:33:54.
:33:54.:33:56.

guide to the latest from Europe in It is goodbye cybrid SARS Ireland

:33:56.:34:02.

takes over the presidency of the EU. -- Cyprus as. Enda Kenny says that

:34:02.:34:06.

Europe is at a crossroads. This presidency will be all about

:34:07.:34:11.

stability and jobs and growth. have been on the minds of MEPs as

:34:11.:34:16.

they called on member states to introduce a guarantee that no-one

:34:16.:34:19.

and a 25 goes without work or training for more than four months.

:34:19.:34:24.

But it is good news if you have got a job working for the EU, this

:34:24.:34:27.

month a levy on their salaries first introduced in 2004 has

:34:27.:34:34.

expired, which means that basic pay has gone up by 5.5%. Credit rating

:34:34.:34:39.

agencies face tougher rules after a vote by MEPs. Many of them blame

:34:39.:34:42.

the agencies for contributing to the financial crisis. And European

:34:42.:34:46.

foreign ministers have met to discuss the French military action

:34:46.:34:49.

and Mali. The EU will send a military training mission, but

:34:49.:34:59.
:34:59.:35:02.

And with us for the next 30 minutes, and joined by Labour MEP Mary

:35:02.:35:08.

Honeyball, and UKIP MEP Roger Helmer. Welcome to you both. Let's

:35:08.:35:12.

look at one of those stories in more detail, the vote to rein in

:35:12.:35:16.

the influence of the credit rating agencies. I would suggest that

:35:16.:35:22.

given the role of the agencies in the run-up to the financial crash,

:35:22.:35:26.

at some stage they were going to be more regulated. I think that is

:35:26.:35:30.

absolutely right, Andrew. Credit rating agencies have evolved

:35:30.:35:35.

recently from being simply information givers, which is what

:35:35.:35:39.

they were originally setting out to do, to actually having a big impact

:35:39.:35:45.

on policy. Clearly, they have done that. The crash a couple of years

:35:45.:35:49.

ago was largely to do with the credit rating agencies, the way

:35:49.:35:54.

they behaved in the United States, with mortgages... Continuing to

:35:54.:36:00.

give AAA ratings... When they clearly were not. At just as badly,

:36:00.:36:04.

they have had an effect on sovereign debt, on countries. This

:36:04.:36:09.

country is desperate to keep its rating. Part of what gave the

:36:09.:36:12.

agency's their importance was that legislators, parliaments,

:36:12.:36:16.

governments in various countries, and even at the macro level, they

:36:16.:36:23.

gave them almost an official status. -- Bert EU level. They said that

:36:23.:36:26.

people at Bryn Estyn AAA bonds. is is a case of shooting the

:36:26.:36:34.

messenger. OK, they did a rotten job of protecting the crisis. But

:36:34.:36:40.

nobody has a good record on that. This amounts to an attack on free

:36:40.:36:46.

speech. These independent agencies are entitled to an opinion. Should

:36:46.:36:52.

they still have an opinion? But they will not have the same weight.

:36:52.:36:55.

These were serious attempts to curtail what they were able to say,

:36:56.:36:59.

and that is wrong. It is interesting that their opinion does

:36:59.:37:03.

not matter so much, they have downgraded France and the United

:37:03.:37:06.

States, and they are still borrowing as cheaply as we are.

:37:06.:37:11.

That may be true, but I think Roger is being a bit disingenuous with

:37:11.:37:15.

this for it is not just about them having an opinion, it is about the

:37:16.:37:19.

effect that the opinion had. You may be right that that that effect

:37:20.:37:24.

is not as important as it was, but the point of these legislation was

:37:24.:37:28.

to make the way they operate more open, so we could understand it, so

:37:28.:37:33.

there was a level of accountability. It is a good piece of legislation.

:37:33.:37:37.

Before events in Algeria unfolded, MEPs in Strasbourg were discussing

:37:38.:37:41.

the Islamist offensive in the neighbouring African country are

:37:41.:37:47.

Mali. One prominent MEP said it underlined the continued lack of a

:37:47.:37:51.

common foreign policy, so what has been the response, and should it

:37:51.:37:55.

have had one anyway? Yesterday EU foreign ministers were called in to

:37:55.:37:59.

an emergency meeting in Brussels to talk about Mali, and a promise to

:37:59.:38:02.

speed up the deployment of a training mission to support African

:38:02.:38:07.

troops. But of course it is France acting individually and acting

:38:07.:38:11.

quickly to send their forces to the north of the country with the

:38:11.:38:14.

support of other countries, including the United Kingdom on

:38:14.:38:19.

logistics. Perhaps this illustrates the challenge facing Baroness

:38:19.:38:24.

Ashton, the High Representative of the EU foreign ministry. Her job

:38:24.:38:30.

was created under the Lisbon Treaty, supported by the external actions

:38:31.:38:35.

servers. They won praise for their diplomacy over Iran's nuclear

:38:35.:38:40.

ambitions, but when it comes to major interventions, such as in

:38:40.:38:44.

Libya or Mali, it has been member- states that have taken the lead.

:38:44.:38:48.

You may remember the former US Secretary of State Henry Kissinger

:38:48.:38:53.

once asked, who rely call if I want to call Europe? His successor,

:38:53.:38:57.

Hillary Clinton, she is said to get on well with Baroness Ashton, but

:38:57.:39:03.

it is still not clear if the question has been answered. What

:39:03.:39:07.

role has the European Union played in the unfolding events in the

:39:07.:39:11.

Maghreb? I think you describe it perfectly, that the action has come

:39:12.:39:16.

from one member states, France, which is now being assisted by

:39:16.:39:19.

Britain, so you have two member states on an inter-governmental

:39:19.:39:23.

basis starting out on that project. Then you have the European Union

:39:23.:39:27.

running along behind and desperately trying to bowl on

:39:27.:39:31.

sunbeds so that afterwards it can say it is a European initiative, a

:39:31.:39:37.

European initiative. -- bowled on some bits. Baroness Ashton has been

:39:37.:39:41.

wholly ineffective since she has been appointed, and her foreign

:39:41.:39:46.

service is forecast and no benefit. Inter-governmental ism can work

:39:46.:39:52.

very well, the European Union is, in effect, a relevant. Well, it is

:39:52.:39:56.

not irrelevant, and the point that Roger has very carefully not talked

:39:56.:40:00.

about is that these kind of foreign policy initiatives are, in fact,

:40:00.:40:04.

taken by member states, they always have been, and it has never been

:40:04.:40:09.

part of the EU remit of foreign affairs to do that. So what is the

:40:09.:40:12.

point of having Cathy Ashton? Because it brings its together and

:40:12.:40:18.

it allows the EU to do what it was set up to do, and what these

:40:18.:40:20.

particular foreign policy initiatives was set up to do,

:40:20.:40:24.

provide humanitarian and non- combatant aid where it is necessary.

:40:24.:40:30.

That is actually what she is doing. So what is the EU's foreign policy

:40:30.:40:34.

en Mali? What is happening is that Baroness Ashton brought together

:40:34.:40:39.

the heads for all the member states' foreign offices a few days

:40:39.:40:44.

ago, and they agreed there would be a EU training mission to Mali

:40:44.:40:48.

through to enable them to set up better and more sustainable

:40:48.:40:52.

democracy, a kind of enabling mission. It is nothing to do with

:40:52.:40:56.

the fighting, as indeed the UK is not part of the fighting. It is

:40:56.:41:00.

enabling the EU to claim to be involved. It is providing

:41:00.:41:05.

assistance to the people of Mali, who are finding themselves in is

:41:05.:41:08.

impossible situation, where they have terrorists in the north of the

:41:08.:41:11.

country, which is what the French are helping the Government's deal

:41:11.:41:17.

with. The EU is providing a very small amount of assistance to help

:41:17.:41:22.

the democracy in Mali. That is not really foreign policy, is it? It

:41:22.:41:26.

could come under international aid. Does the EU support the French

:41:26.:41:30.

intervention? That is part of a bilateral agreement between us and

:41:30.:41:37.

France... Does the EU support it? I know why the UK is involved, as a

:41:37.:41:41.

nation-state, and we have a treaty arrangement with France to help, as

:41:41.:41:47.

they were supposedly help us, too, but what is the EU policy?

:41:47.:41:50.

supports the initiative, and it wants to jump onto the bandwagon.

:41:50.:41:55.

It is not jumping onto the bandwagon, Roger. It does support

:41:55.:41:59.

the initiative. It followed a long. It did not take the initiative

:41:59.:42:04.

because it is not the EU's role, that is the point. I think it is

:42:04.:42:08.

all right as it is. I would not like to see an extension of the

:42:08.:42:13.

foreign policy role, because I would not, no, I wouldn't, because

:42:13.:42:18.

I think what you are dealing with, obviously, in the EU is a grouping

:42:18.:42:21.

of 27 countries, and I think it is difficult in the present

:42:21.:42:26.

circumstances to get any kind of agreement. A lot of those 27 do not

:42:26.:42:29.

want collective foreign policy. Here's another thought, it is

:42:29.:42:32.

probably going to be a long time before that changes! I think you

:42:32.:42:37.

are probably right. It has reached its limit and gone beyond. Since we

:42:37.:42:42.

are agreed, we will move on! If David Cameron had stood up in

:42:42.:42:46.

Amsterdam, his speech would have been heard across the Continent.

:42:46.:42:50.

Britain's attitude to Europe and his desire to renegotiate the

:42:50.:42:54.

relationship with the EU is a hot topic for politicians, not just

:42:54.:42:57.

here but across the European Continent, as David Thomson has

:42:57.:43:07.
:43:07.:43:08.

Strasbourg on ice, a parliament waiting to see where David Cameron

:43:08.:43:11.

takes Britain and perhaps the rest of Europe. We will have to wait a

:43:11.:43:15.

little bit longer now, but let's speed things up with a quick guide

:43:15.:43:20.

to what they make of us and our Prime Minister. Europe is a family,

:43:20.:43:24.

and of course there are good pupils and bad pupils, at now we have the

:43:24.:43:30.

impression that the UK are proud to be the worst pupils in the

:43:30.:43:38.

classroom! Mr Cameron asking for a renegotiation of the position in

:43:38.:43:41.

the union, if we start with that and other countries can follow,

:43:41.:43:45.

then for example France can start and as for the negotiations,

:43:45.:43:49.

because they do not like the competition rules. German could ask

:43:49.:43:53.

for a new statute in Europe because they do not like to pay for other

:43:53.:43:59.

countries. At the end, we should have 27 different statutes for the

:43:59.:44:03.

27 different countries. So that cannot work. We all know the

:44:03.:44:07.

argument for renegotiation. Since we joined the EU, we have changed,

:44:07.:44:11.

it has changed, the world has changed. Therefore why should not

:44:11.:44:15.

be treaties which bind us changed to reflect that? The question is,

:44:15.:44:18.

will our European neighbours, the heavy hitters in Strasbourg, buy

:44:18.:44:23.

it? The good news for David Cameron... I think there is more

:44:23.:44:27.

support than you think, because lots of people are unhappy. They

:44:27.:44:31.

are in favour of the EU, but they wanted to reform, the Netherlands,

:44:31.:44:37.

perhaps the Scandinavian countries. There may be some people in Germany

:44:37.:44:41.

saying that we should reform the European Union because the Brussels

:44:41.:44:45.

bureaucracy is not regarded as efficient. Now, he is a member of

:44:45.:44:48.

the same group in the European Parliament as Britain's

:44:48.:44:51.

Conservative MEPs, so you might expect him to support David Cameron,

:44:52.:44:56.

but members of the Dutch governing party are not dismissive of his

:44:56.:45:00.

approach either. We want to hear what he is proposing. We want to

:45:00.:45:06.

look at it and say, where can we support you? We do not say no to

:45:06.:45:10.

renegotiation, we say, let's sits down and talk. I say to those in

:45:10.:45:14.

France to say, no discussion at all, we want France to be in, we want

:45:15.:45:24.
:45:25.:45:25.

Britain to be in, so we have to be Renegotiation might not be as

:45:25.:45:29.

impossible as it is sometimes painted us. But David Cameron might

:45:30.:45:36.

be careful about what he wishes for. Renegotiation always entails

:45:36.:45:46.
:45:46.:45:49.

several partners. It would be naive to it accept at one side gets all.

:45:49.:45:52.

Joint banking supervision in the City of London would be one

:45:52.:46:00.

concession that Europe would be looking for. We want to have great

:46:00.:46:05.

Britain inside of the European Union. We must go one step in the

:46:05.:46:11.

direction of Great Britain. Let's speak about the issues. But there

:46:11.:46:18.

are deadlines, as well, for Germany. Unifier us think that Britain

:46:19.:46:25.

should either put up or shut up. What is not possible is that any

:46:25.:46:35.
:46:35.:46:39.

member states can have one foot in and the other foot out. -- unifiers.

:46:39.:46:45.

We need the UK with both feet in the EU. But if it is chat -- if it

:46:45.:46:49.

is the choice of the British people, it would be better to have two the

:46:49.:46:59.
:46:59.:47:01.

doubt. That would leave David Cameron in the cold. This is

:47:01.:47:05.

negotiation, Strasbourg style. And we are joined from Brussels now by

:47:06.:47:08.

the Conservative MEP and chairman of the Conservatives and Reformist

:47:08.:47:11.

Group in the European Parliament, Martin Callanan, and here in London

:47:11.:47:13.

by the former permanent representative to the European

:47:13.:47:23.
:47:23.:47:25.

Union, Stephen Wall. Good afternoon. Is there really an appetite to do

:47:25.:47:29.

serious negotiation with the British on repatriating powers

:47:29.:47:35.

among the other member states? think he heard the reaction from

:47:35.:47:40.

several leading MEPs. I was quite surprised by how positive some of

:47:40.:47:47.

them were that the prospect. But MEPs are the most federalist in the

:47:47.:47:51.

whole of the European Union. The heads of government are more

:47:51.:47:56.

pragmatic. When they think about the possibility of Britain leaving,

:47:56.:48:01.

not least our budget contribution, as an advantage, they will think

:48:01.:48:05.

about to renegotiation. Do you believe that there is any chance

:48:05.:48:10.

that even if they are pragmatic and prepared to go down this route some

:48:10.:48:15.

way, that they would give anything like enough that would satisfy the

:48:15.:48:20.

Euro-sceptics on the Tory backbenches? I think there is a

:48:20.:48:26.

good chance. We certainly have to try. Public disenchantment with the

:48:26.:48:31.

EU is massive in the UK. We have to have public support if we are to

:48:31.:48:36.

remain members. That is why it is important that we give a solid

:48:36.:48:40.

commitment to a referendum to give people a chance of accepting that

:48:40.:48:46.

the brand new settlement or leaving. There has not been a referendum

:48:46.:48:51.

since 1975 on Europe and there is public demand for one. It will help

:48:51.:48:55.

to concentrate the minds of those politicians who are doing the

:48:55.:49:00.

negotiations. Our partners will know that they have to satisfy the

:49:00.:49:06.

British people. He is saying that this is going with the grain of the

:49:06.:49:11.

British people. The British a Euro- sceptic, they want to repatriate

:49:11.:49:19.

powers, or what is wrong with that? Overall if you look at the opinion

:49:19.:49:22.

polls there are some people that one tout and some people who want

:49:22.:49:26.

to stay in, and some people if you want less Europe, but not

:49:26.:49:36.
:49:36.:49:36.

necessarily know Europe. As to having a referendum, at David

:49:36.:49:41.

Cameron finds himself in the situation that Harold Wilson was in.

:49:41.:49:49.

-- no. Then our partners said that they would not change the treaty.

:49:49.:49:59.

You have to accept that. We want to know that if the negotiations

:49:59.:50:02.

succeed she will recommend to the people of Britain that we stay.

:50:02.:50:08.

Will that be true? Gave Mr Cameron succeeds in getting what he would

:50:08.:50:12.

regard as enough in terms of repatriation, he has made it clear

:50:12.:50:18.

that he will say, a vote, yes, to stay in on these brand new terms.

:50:18.:50:23.

think he probably will. It will depend on the results of the

:50:23.:50:29.

renegotiation. There is a positive attitude from both sides. There has

:50:29.:50:33.

to be a referendum because people will know that it will be a choice

:50:33.:50:39.

of in or out on the brand new terms. We have to try and reach a brand

:50:39.:50:43.

new deal because the current settlement is unsatisfactory. Even

:50:43.:50:48.

Ed Miliband said on the radio yesterday that he is in favour of

:50:48.:50:55.

renegotiation. We could have cross- party agreement on this.

:50:55.:51:00.

Unfortunately labour are not signed up to a referendum yet. Where does

:51:00.:51:06.

this leave UKIP? I think I agree with Stephen. David Cameron will

:51:06.:51:11.

have the gravest difficulty getting anything more than cosmetic changes.

:51:11.:51:17.

He will not get substantial changes. Martin sounds optimistic, he has a

:51:17.:51:21.

party line to follow, but my view is that they've David Cameron

:51:22.:51:26.

attempts to negotiate he will not come back with anything significant.

:51:26.:51:30.

But I look beyond that to the outcome because if we have a

:51:30.:51:35.

referendum would be renegotiated package is a trivial renegotiation,

:51:35.:51:39.

as it was in the case of Harold Wilson, and the British people feel

:51:39.:51:44.

they have been rebuffed by Europe, that will be an enormous boost both

:51:44.:51:54.
:51:54.:51:54.

for my party but for the no side. We have the re-election of David

:51:55.:51:59.

Cameron or not between now and then so whether we get a referendum is

:51:59.:52:06.

an open question. What is Labour's position on this? Ed Miliband has

:52:06.:52:11.

said that we do not want a referendum at the minute. I think

:52:11.:52:16.

we need to inject realism into the discussion we're having. We do not

:52:16.:52:21.

know what will be repatriated. We do not know what any of this will

:52:21.:52:25.

be about. We do not know the timescale and the outcome is not

:52:25.:52:31.

known. It is fantasy to start speaking about a referendum when we

:52:31.:52:34.

do not have the faintest idea when it will be and what it will be

:52:34.:52:41.

about. That is not true. I Group of Tory backbenchers have given us a

:52:41.:52:46.

list of major powers that they would like to repatriate. They are

:52:46.:52:54.

pretty close to the David Cameron project. -- a group of Tory

:52:54.:53:01.

backbenchers. Yes. David Cameron himself has spoken about several

:53:01.:53:06.

areas. One EC Social Chapter, and the other is rules on benefits for

:53:06.:53:12.

migrants. His difficulty a few wants to reopen the social chapter

:53:12.:53:16.

it is that we need to have the treaty change to renew the opt-out

:53:16.:53:21.

from the social chapter that John Major negotiated. If he wants to

:53:21.:53:25.

change the directors, which is not impossible, the European Commission

:53:25.:53:30.

will have to be persuaded to bring forward a proposal. He would have

:53:30.:53:36.

to build alliances. The other thing that is hinted at in the

:53:36.:53:39.

Conservative document that is interesting is that if we're in

:53:40.:53:42.

this situation where there is a group of Eurozone countries getting

:53:43.:53:49.

closer together, and some, not just Britain, outside the Eurozone, how

:53:49.:53:55.

do we ensure that the institutions are not disadvantaged? On the

:53:55.:53:59.

single market day is a built-in majority among the Eurozone that

:53:59.:54:03.

could override this issue. That would be a difficult issue to

:54:03.:54:13.
:54:13.:54:14.

negotiate, but it would be in the British interests. -- interest.

:54:14.:54:20.

will give you the final word. How worried are you about UKIP and the

:54:20.:54:25.

threat to the Conservatives winning an overall majority in 2013?

:54:25.:54:32.

they are going to take thought away from us, that is a threat. But I

:54:32.:54:36.

think Roger Rees being churlish. He has been campaigning genuinely for

:54:36.:54:42.

a referendum for many years. Here is David Cameron offering him that

:54:42.:54:47.

referendum. I think the least he could do is welcome it. This gives

:54:47.:54:52.

us a chance to say to be disenchanted Conservative voters,

:54:52.:54:56.

series the referendum that you want. It is only a Conservative

:54:56.:55:02.

government that will deliver it. will give him a chance to welcome

:55:02.:55:08.

it when we finally hear the speech. Arguing Brussels or Strasbourg, I

:55:08.:55:15.

cannot remember? I am in Brussels. I was in Amsterdam, but you

:55:15.:55:20.

cancelled my trip from there! is the Prime Minister that

:55:20.:55:26.

cancelled it. But I am sorry about that. We cannot waste the licence

:55:26.:55:30.

fee. We all know that Brussels employs

:55:30.:55:35.

its fair share of bureaucrats, translators and politicians. But

:55:35.:55:39.

they are not alone. They are joined by hordes of lobbyists. Why are

:55:39.:55:42.

they there and who are they trying to influence? Here is Adam Fleming

:55:42.:55:51.

with the latest letter in his A-Z of Europe. L for lobbying.

:55:51.:55:58.

Welcome to Luxembourg. This is Ground Zero for schmoozing. As the

:55:58.:56:03.

powers of the EU have grown, so have the number of lobbyists. It is

:56:03.:56:13.
:56:13.:56:18.

estimated there are between 15,030 1,000 of them. -- between 15,000

:56:18.:56:25.

and 30,000. There are charity groups and Industry organising

:56:25.:56:31.

meetings for the powerful. Outside the European Parliament, there is

:56:31.:56:35.

even a tree dedicated to lobbyists. And there are plenty of

:56:35.:56:40.

opportunities for them. You can try to coax the commission whose job it

:56:40.:56:45.

is to come up with brand-new laws that might affect your industry. Or

:56:45.:56:51.

why not try cajoling countries to nudge the EU in your direction? Or

:56:51.:56:57.

you can persuade Parliament to alter legislation in your favour.

:56:57.:57:02.

There have been some scandals. Last year the Health Commissioner

:57:02.:57:06.

resigned after being linked to a cash for legislation case link to

:57:06.:57:11.

tobacco. He has always denied doing anything wrong. They have

:57:11.:57:15.

introduced a code of conduct for lobbyists in an effort to make

:57:15.:57:22.

things more transparent. But it is voluntary. Campaigners complain

:57:22.:57:27.

about the revolving door. There is a massive number of people who

:57:27.:57:31.

leave the European institutions and walk straight into jobs where they

:57:31.:57:37.

peddle their influence. One person who did that is a former member of

:57:37.:57:42.

the European Parliament called Nick Clegg. But everyone is agreed that

:57:42.:57:46.

the year is far less money sloshing around the system here than in

:57:46.:57:52.

Washington DC. -- but everyone in Brussels is agreed that there is

:57:52.:57:57.

far less money. Coincidentally, the number of lobbyists there is

:57:57.:58:03.

exactly the same. If Brussels was subjected to the

:58:03.:58:07.

same amount of scrutiny as Westminster, lobbying would be the

:58:07.:58:11.

next big scandal? At am not sure about that but the rules do need

:58:11.:58:16.

tightening up. We are making progress but the register should be

:58:16.:58:22.

mandatory rather than voluntary. Your report was quite the rocketry,

:58:22.:58:29.

saying that lobbyists have a lot of money. -- do rocketry. It is not

:58:29.:58:36.

like that. I'm knead the Music Industry in my office and I speak

:58:36.:58:43.

to them about the issues. You think everything is fine. People speak

:58:43.:58:48.

about industry lobbyists. There are lots of non-governmental lobbyists

:58:48.:58:57.

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