Browse content similar to 18/01/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Good morning, welcome to the Daily Politics. The hostage crisis is | :00:44. | :00:48. | |
still unfolding this morning, but some foreign workers, including | :00:48. | :00:52. | |
British Aris ditches, have been freed, with other still being held | :00:52. | :00:55. | |
by terrorists as Algerian forces continue their controversial | :00:55. | :00:58. | |
operation. -- including British hostages. | :00:58. | :01:02. | |
It was the most long awaited speech of modern political times, but | :01:02. | :01:06. | |
instead of talking Europe in Amsterdam, the Prime Minister had | :01:06. | :01:10. | |
to make a statement on Algeria in the Commons this morning. We will | :01:10. | :01:14. | |
show you what he said about Algeria and what he was planning to say on | :01:14. | :01:18. | |
Europe. And after this former minister | :01:18. | :01:22. | |
compared his old boss Michael Gove to a sitcom character, unnamed | :01:22. | :01:28. | |
government sources called Tim Loughton a lazy, incompetent | :01:28. | :01:38. | |
:01:38. | :01:40. | ||
narcissist. What is going on at the All that in the next hour. With us | :01:40. | :01:44. | |
for the first half of the programme, Spectator editor Fraser Nelson, and | :01:44. | :01:49. | |
former Liberal Democrat press secretary and editor of an online | :01:49. | :01:52. | |
newspaper for young people like me, Miranda Green. What are you | :01:52. | :01:57. | |
laughing at? I would not dream of it! The Prime Minister should have | :01:57. | :02:00. | |
been in Amsterdam this morning unveiling his plan to repatriate | :02:00. | :02:05. | |
powers from Brussels and maybe even give us a promise of a euro | :02:05. | :02:10. | |
referendum. Instead, at 11am, he made a statement to the House about | :02:10. | :02:15. | |
the unfolding hostage situation in Algeria. Mr Speaker, during the | :02:15. | :02:18. | |
course of Thursday morning, the Algerian forces mounted an | :02:18. | :02:23. | |
operation. Mr Speaker, we were not informed of this in advance. I was | :02:23. | :02:28. | |
told by the Algeria Prime Minister while it was taking place. He said | :02:28. | :02:31. | |
the terrorists had tried to flee, that they judged there was an | :02:31. | :02:34. | |
immediate threat to the hostages, and had felt obliged to respond. | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
When I spoke to the Algerian Prime Minister last night, he told me | :02:39. | :02:43. | |
this first operation was complete, but this is a large and complex | :02:43. | :02:47. | |
site and they are still pursuing terrorists and possibly some of the | :02:47. | :02:51. | |
hostages in other areas of the site. The Algerian Prime Minister has | :02:51. | :02:55. | |
told me this morning they are looking at all possible routes to | :02:55. | :02:59. | |
resolve the crisis. Mr Speaker, last night the number of British | :02:59. | :03:03. | |
citizens at risk was less than 30. Thankfully, we now know that number | :03:03. | :03:08. | |
has been quite significantly reduced, and I'm sure the House | :03:08. | :03:11. | |
will understand why, during an ongoing operation, I cannot say | :03:11. | :03:16. | |
more on this at this stage. That was the prime minister leaving many | :03:16. | :03:21. | |
questions unanswered, despite that statement, so let's talked to Chris | :03:21. | :03:25. | |
Mason, who I hope can tell us more. He is in a very snowy London, as | :03:25. | :03:30. | |
you can see. The Prime Minister did give us more information, but I do | :03:30. | :03:36. | |
not yet have a clear picture of how many hostages have been liberated, | :03:36. | :03:41. | |
how many are still in captivity, and how many have become fatalities. | :03:41. | :03:45. | |
Yes, there are two strands to the uncertainties in all of this. | :03:45. | :03:48. | |
Firstly, there has been repeated statements from the Foreign Office | :03:48. | :03:52. | |
and from Downing Street that have emphasised that they have a limited | :03:52. | :03:56. | |
amount of information, and then added to that is the inevitable | :03:57. | :04:00. | |
caution from the Prime Minister in how much of the information he is | :04:00. | :04:03. | |
aware of he is willing to make public, given that this is an | :04:03. | :04:07. | |
ongoing situation, given that there still are a good number of hostages, | :04:07. | :04:12. | |
including a good number from the UK, who are still being held. The key | :04:12. | :04:18. | |
fact that we learnt in the statement from the Prime Minister, | :04:18. | :04:20. | |
and he stood on his feet taking questions now, one hour into taking | :04:20. | :04:25. | |
questions from backbenchers, is that last night less than 30 | :04:25. | :04:29. | |
Britons were being held hostage. Now that number is, as we heard, | :04:29. | :04:34. | |
significantly reduced, but we do not have a specific number. Chris, | :04:34. | :04:40. | |
do we have any idea yet of British casualties? No. In specific terms, | :04:40. | :04:46. | |
we do not, beyond the initial announcement that a Briton had been | :04:46. | :04:51. | |
killed, beyond hearing that there was a man from Northern Ireland, a | :04:51. | :04:55. | |
career of an Irish passport, he was freed, we do not have any more | :04:55. | :05:00. | |
information. As I say, those two strands to the uncertainty mean | :05:00. | :05:04. | |
that we are learning a limited amount in the statement in the last | :05:04. | :05:08. | |
hour. There is an expectation, the Prime Minister said, that he hopes | :05:08. | :05:13. | |
he may be able to say a little bit more later today, but there is real | :05:13. | :05:15. | |
understandable nervousness within the Foreign Office about too much | :05:16. | :05:19. | |
information coming out too soon and potentially imperilling the lives | :05:19. | :05:24. | |
of those who are still there. Frustration, too, Andrew, about the | :05:25. | :05:29. | |
procedure adopted by the Algerian government, the Algerian forces, a | :05:29. | :05:32. | |
sense that the Prime Minister really wanted to hear in advance | :05:32. | :05:35. | |
that they were going to attempt a rescue mission, and he only found | :05:36. | :05:40. | |
out what it was under way once it was already under way to. There was | :05:40. | :05:43. | |
a clear sense in the Prime Minister's tone that he would have | :05:43. | :05:46. | |
liked to have known in advance, and that British special forces could | :05:46. | :05:52. | |
have been involved, they were certainly available. Thank you very | :05:52. | :05:57. | |
much for that update, very interesting, on the ongoing hostage | :05:57. | :05:59. | |
situation with British lives still at stake, and the developing | :06:00. | :06:04. | |
relationship between Britain and Algeria. To discuss the crisis, we | :06:04. | :06:09. | |
are joined by the chair of the foreign affairs select committee | :06:09. | :06:14. | |
Richard Ottaway. Are you surprised that the Algerians went ahead with | :06:14. | :06:17. | |
this operation without even informing the British or other | :06:17. | :06:24. | |
countries involved, never mind involving them? Good morning. No. I | :06:24. | :06:28. | |
think it is barely understandable, when you have got a clandestine | :06:28. | :06:33. | |
operation going on that you do not give notice in advance, much as | :06:33. | :06:37. | |
other countries, no matter how much they may be affected, may want to | :06:37. | :06:42. | |
be involved. As far as the special forces are concerned, the Algerians | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
are, you know, they have got a pretty efficient military machine, | :06:46. | :06:50. | |
and I'm sure they have the capacity to conduct the operation themselves. | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
Frankly, it is far from certain that if the SAS had been involved | :06:53. | :06:57. | |
it would have had a different outcome. We do not seem to have | :06:57. | :07:01. | |
much influence over Algeria. They are not a member of the EU, we have | :07:02. | :07:05. | |
a good bilateral relationship with them, there is no lack of harmony | :07:05. | :07:09. | |
in our relationship with Algeria at the moment, and this is a very | :07:09. | :07:12. | |
complex, fast-moving operation here, and I think we have got to give | :07:12. | :07:17. | |
them the benefit of the doubt. you in any doubt... Last night on | :07:17. | :07:23. | |
BBC One's This Week, Kofi Annan said he was in no doubt that the | :07:23. | :07:26. | |
terrorist action in Algeria was linked to the French intervention | :07:26. | :07:31. | |
in Mali. What is your view? I think this is something we have got to | :07:31. | :07:35. | |
look at now. There is a whole change in the character of the | :07:35. | :07:39. | |
region going on here as Al-Qaeda have been moved out of Afghanistan | :07:39. | :07:44. | |
and Pakistan, moving into Somalia, Nigeria, Mali, Algeria, and I think | :07:45. | :07:49. | |
we have got to rethink our strategy here, and much closer co-operation | :07:49. | :07:53. | |
is required between the intelligence services, military | :07:53. | :07:56. | |
organisations, and diplomatically. Although some people do not like | :07:56. | :08:00. | |
the phrase, you get the sense this is the latest front in the war on | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
terror. That is right, and I think it is really interesting that | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
everyone was so excited about the Arab Spring, but partly because | :08:07. | :08:12. | |
they got a bit of democracy in the region might take the pressure | :08:12. | :08:17. | |
towards Islamism away, but actually, the Arab Spring having happened, | :08:17. | :08:22. | |
this explosion of Islamist activity has taken place anyway, so it is an | :08:22. | :08:25. | |
enormous challenge not just for the West, but for the rest of Africa. | :08:25. | :08:30. | |
The one thing we learn is that it is, in some way, a knock-on effect | :08:30. | :08:35. | |
from events in Libya, because after the Gaddafi regime collapsed, the | :08:35. | :08:39. | |
number of these people had been closer to Gaddafi moved south. | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
Apparently, they raided all the arms dump, so they were incredibly | :08:43. | :08:48. | |
well armed, they moved into Mali and dominated the north of that, | :08:48. | :08:52. | |
enough to be able to move south and threaten the capital. I think what | :08:52. | :08:55. | |
we are seeing, what we had thought was a fairly straightforward | :08:55. | :08:58. | |
operation of Libya that got rid of Colonel Gaddafi has started a chain | :08:58. | :09:04. | |
reaction. The first phase was having these nomadic mercenaries, | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
moving south with their heavy armour, and the Algerian government | :09:08. | :09:14. | |
said that the attempt at the gas terminal was in response to the | :09:14. | :09:18. | |
French action in Mali. It looks right now as if this was a well | :09:18. | :09:20. | |
organised and deliberate retaliation to the French action, | :09:20. | :09:25. | |
which raises the question, if this is how they are going to respond, | :09:25. | :09:28. | |
not by attacking French soldiers but raiding Western interests and | :09:28. | :09:34. | |
the rest of Africa, then similar fields in Morocco, Libya and | :09:34. | :09:38. | |
Nigeria would also be at risk. I think David Cameron is realising | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
that Libya was the start of something but we are not seen the | :09:41. | :09:46. | |
end. I have just been told that Alex Salmond has been discussing | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
the Scottish hostages in the gas compound, the Scots have been freed, | :09:50. | :09:54. | |
we are waiting to hear about the rest of the British hostages who | :09:54. | :09:59. | |
are still there. Should we be giving more, and by week, I do not | :09:59. | :10:02. | |
just mean Britain, but the European Union and the United States, should | :10:02. | :10:08. | |
we be giving the French more support in Mali? Well, we have a | :10:08. | :10:12. | |
bilateral agreement with the French, and we would give them whatever | :10:13. | :10:16. | |
they asked for, because we have undertaken to do so in a military | :10:16. | :10:20. | |
treaty. If they ask for blitz on the ground, would we give them | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
that? -- Boots. There is co- operation with the French in the | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
treaty, it is not like NATO where an attack on one is an attack on | :10:28. | :10:31. | |
the other, but there is an understanding that these matters | :10:31. | :10:35. | |
are under discussion. We would not give them everything they would ask | :10:36. | :10:40. | |
for, we would consider in a friendly way what they ask for, but | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
if they ask for the Black Watch, we would not give them that without a | :10:44. | :10:49. | |
big debate, would we? I did not think it has got to that point at | :10:49. | :10:52. | |
the moment, and indeed we would be reluctant to put feet underground | :10:52. | :10:56. | |
just when we will be drawing troops out of Afghanistan. -- feet on the | :10:57. | :11:01. | |
ground. So are the French. They had a much smaller commitment and are | :11:01. | :11:07. | |
already out now. You know, you actually have to watch and see what | :11:07. | :11:12. | |
is going on in both these operations. If I can go back way | :11:12. | :11:17. | |
point raised by both Fraser and Miranda about has Libya triggered | :11:17. | :11:20. | |
something, if you urge democracy on countries like Libya and Egypt, you | :11:20. | :11:24. | |
have got to accept what it throws up. What we have got there is | :11:24. | :11:28. | |
moderate Islam, and these are Islamist we can and have to do | :11:28. | :11:31. | |
business with. It does not necessarily follow that radical | :11:31. | :11:35. | |
Islam will come out of that. I think actually you have got a more | :11:35. | :11:39. | |
sinister operation going on which is opportunistic, and I think they | :11:39. | :11:44. | |
are making a fair point, but I think it would be a mistake to say | :11:44. | :11:48. | |
that because Islamic democracy has arrived, that means fundamentalist | :11:48. | :11:53. | |
Islam will follow. But it certainly takes the lead of other Islamist | :11:53. | :11:57. | |
pressures. We in the West like these countries with nice, tidy | :11:57. | :12:01. | |
borders, but that is not the way they work, tried to move across | :12:01. | :12:05. | |
borders, and people are saying in Syria, let's help the rebels, but | :12:05. | :12:09. | |
we are not thinking about the knock-on effects. I think we are | :12:09. | :12:13. | |
too quick to think, let's get rid of the bad guy, without thinking of | :12:13. | :12:17. | |
the consequences. That is exactly the point I was going to make, it | :12:17. | :12:22. | |
is also to do with these being very mobile people, moving across a | :12:22. | :12:26. | |
continent to find the most convenient and conducive home from | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
which to export terrorism. Clearly, Mali became something akin to | :12:30. | :12:36. | |
Afghanistan. There is no Islamist democracy in Algeria or Mali. | :12:36. | :12:43. | |
is democracy in Algeria. His there? Yes, you have a parliament and a | :12:43. | :12:50. | |
government. We had a parliament in Moscow! Democracy comes in... | :12:50. | :12:54. | |
certainly none in Mali, they had a military coup. Democracy comes in | :12:54. | :12:59. | |
many forms. Going back to Syria macro, the reason the British | :12:59. | :13:03. | |
government is hesitating about Syria, they are far from certain | :13:03. | :13:08. | |
about who the opposition is now, its nature and its composition. | :13:08. | :13:12. | |
Britain has endorsed them. We have endorsed the transitional council, | :13:12. | :13:15. | |
which is not necessarily the same as the people fighting on the | :13:15. | :13:20. | |
ground. So why have we endorse the transitional council if we do not | :13:20. | :13:25. | |
know who they are? Because ultimately we do think that Assad | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
will fall and we want to be in there, trying to influence them as | :13:29. | :13:33. | |
soon as possible. You want to be on the winning side. We always want to | :13:33. | :13:37. | |
be on the winning side. Listening to the Prime Minister today, he was | :13:37. | :13:40. | |
talking in very general terms about the Islamic threat in Africa, and | :13:40. | :13:45. | |
it was very resident of the language we use about Al-Qaeda in | :13:45. | :13:49. | |
Afghanistan, these guys are a threat, they will come and get as | :13:49. | :13:53. | |
later, and part of me wonders of Mali may be David Cameron's third | :13:53. | :13:59. | |
war. Tony Blair at five, didn't he? Why should he hold back?! Thank you | :13:59. | :14:04. | |
for being with us, Richard Ottaway. The PM's euros thoughts have been a | :14:04. | :14:07. | |
long time coming, and thanks to events in Algeria, we will have to | :14:07. | :14:12. | |
wait still longer. Well, not quite. Well-placed stories in this | :14:12. | :14:15. | |
morning's newspapers of a sneak preview of the speech because they | :14:15. | :14:18. | |
were handed out by Downing Street when they still thought the speech | :14:18. | :14:22. | |
was going ahead. It was not cancelled until early in the | :14:22. | :14:25. | |
evening. They reveal the Prime Minister plan to talk about his | :14:25. | :14:28. | |
growing frustration with Europe, there's a surprise, highlighting | :14:28. | :14:32. | |
three issues. First, the economic problems in the eurozone which are | :14:32. | :14:36. | |
pushing Europe towards closer integration. Second, a crisis of | :14:36. | :14:42. | |
European competitiveness, as other nations across the world saw ahead. | :14:42. | :14:45. | |
Third, a gap between Europe and its citizens which is growing ever | :14:45. | :14:51. | |
wider. That has led to a lack of democratic accountability and | :14:51. | :14:56. | |
consents that is felt particularly acutely in Britain. Finally, he | :14:56. | :14:59. | |
planned a stark warning, if we do not address these challenges, the | :14:59. | :15:04. | |
danger is that Europe will fail and the British people will drift | :15:04. | :15:14. | |
:15:14. | :15:20. | ||
It is strange that we're able to tell you what is in a speech even | :15:20. | :15:23. | |
though the speech will not be delivered this morning. Fraser | :15:23. | :15:27. | |
Nelson, what do you make of the content of what he was planning to | :15:27. | :15:33. | |
say? This was like a good Eurovision Song contest entry, | :15:33. | :15:37. | |
something designed to resonate across borders. You have got to hit | :15:37. | :15:42. | |
both the domestic and foreign audience. He was saying that Europe | :15:42. | :15:47. | |
needs to reform and Britain is one of the good guys. You want us in | :15:48. | :15:51. | |
the EU because we will be encouraged in this process that you | :15:51. | :15:57. | |
all want. But there was not much detail. The key points in the | :15:57. | :16:01. | |
speech are still those that James Forsyth outlined in the Spectator a | :16:01. | :16:08. | |
couple of weeks ago. There will be re negotiation before 2018. That | :16:08. | :16:13. | |
will be contingent on a Tory majority which is the biggest if in | :16:13. | :16:18. | |
the whole equation. The tone of these excerpts that we have is | :16:18. | :16:24. | |
quite Europe friendly? He is trying to have it both ways. He wants to | :16:24. | :16:31. | |
feed red meat to his backbenchers, but he is also saying to pro- | :16:31. | :16:39. | |
Europeans, if it gets better, we will stay in. Yes. The Prime | :16:39. | :16:42. | |
Minister seems to me like somebody who is having a relationship crisis | :16:42. | :16:50. | |
and taking bad advice from a friend in a pub. In this case, that friend | :16:50. | :16:54. | |
is the wing of the party who is very hostile to Europe. They are | :16:54. | :16:59. | |
saying, you have got to give them an ultimatum. That does not really | :16:59. | :17:05. | |
work. That gets you into a negative situation. That alone would not | :17:05. | :17:11. | |
have pleased a lot of his own backbenchers. No, and it was not | :17:11. | :17:16. | |
intended to. The very fact that he wanted to find some random location | :17:16. | :17:21. | |
in Europe to give the speech was a message that it was for the people | :17:21. | :17:29. | |
back home and those people in Europe as well. He can dress it up | :17:29. | :17:38. | |
however he wants, but his party will not like it. Do you know where | :17:38. | :17:44. | |
he is on the referendum? Now it is mac. Fraser assured us this morning | :17:44. | :17:48. | |
as many people have done that David Cameron does not want Britain to | :17:48. | :17:54. | |
leave the European Union. He said so himself. Indeed. We take it on | :17:54. | :18:00. | |
trust. It may be true. There is this danger of drifting out. Ed | :18:00. | :18:05. | |
Miliband, to his credit, has expressed his very eloquently in | :18:05. | :18:10. | |
the last few weeks. The problem is that his strategy to manage the | :18:10. | :18:17. | |
situation of his own backbenchers is very risky. You introduce a | :18:17. | :18:19. | |
referendum, this idea of renegotiation, which is very | :18:19. | :18:25. | |
dangerous. It may not work. You may not be able to offer people | :18:25. | :18:29. | |
something in a referendum that will satisfy at that particular wing of | :18:29. | :18:35. | |
opinion. Then you have to offer them another referendum. It will | :18:35. | :18:41. | |
keep us in a job! Why are we even speaking about this? It is all | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
predicated on Mr Cameron winning an overall majority, not just getting | :18:45. | :18:51. | |
back into power. The Liberal Democrats would not let him go down | :18:51. | :18:55. | |
this road again. The bookies will not give you good odds on that at | :18:55. | :19:04. | |
the moment. They will give you 4-1. It is more likely that Scotland | :19:04. | :19:09. | |
will vote to go independent. It is more likely that Nick Clegg will be | :19:09. | :19:14. | |
gone before Christmas. It is more likely that the royal baby will be | :19:15. | :19:24. | |
:19:25. | :19:29. | ||
born blonde. That threw me. Off all the many IFS, this is the biggest | :19:29. | :19:34. | |
one. When David Cameron comes back he will be under pressure to say | :19:34. | :19:39. | |
that any government he reads will have his referendum. Even if he | :19:39. | :19:44. | |
goes into a coalition of Liberal- Democrats. As always under these | :19:44. | :19:48. | |
circumstances, I wanted to ask where the postponement of the | :19:48. | :19:54. | |
speech leaves us. Is this an advantage to Mr Cameron, or having | :19:54. | :19:58. | |
marched all his men to the top of the hell, he has now marched them | :19:58. | :20:04. | |
down again? Does he have to march them back up? I think he probably | :20:04. | :20:11. | |
does. This adds to the uncertainty. That is very damaging for the UK. | :20:11. | :20:16. | |
They is pressure on the currency at the moment. Our allies do not know | :20:16. | :20:22. | |
where we stand and there is panic in Washington. There is irritation | :20:22. | :20:30. | |
among our EU allies. It could be a damp squib? I suspect it will be. | :20:30. | :20:35. | |
No one mentions public opinion. Only one-third of people in this | :20:35. | :20:45. | |
:20:45. | :20:45. | ||
country think that membership of the EU is a good idea. I think you | :20:45. | :20:50. | |
have to be cautious about that. If you look at the recent YouGov | :20:50. | :20:55. | |
opinion poll, it is moving in the other direction. When you start to | :20:55. | :21:05. | |
speak about the cost of leaving the EU, it starts to go the other way. | :21:05. | :21:09. | |
Finally, on this issue, I understand the Prime Minister says | :21:09. | :21:13. | |
that if he does get this overall majority, he wants to repatriate | :21:13. | :21:21. | |
parks. On the assumption he does that, I think he would then let us | :21:21. | :21:31. | |
:21:31. | :21:32. | ||
have a referendum. -- he wants to repatriate powers. If we vote no, | :21:32. | :21:39. | |
what have we voted for? To leave, to exercise air writes. Maybe | :21:39. | :21:44. | |
people will say, I quite like it the way it is. There will not be | :21:44. | :21:49. | |
three options, there will be two questions. Does he realise that? | :21:49. | :21:54. | |
Absolutely. That is the implication when he is speaking about the | :21:54. | :21:58. | |
British exit. He has to focus their minds if you will not get through | :21:58. | :22:03. | |
the negotiation. And we will have more on the speech | :22:03. | :22:05. | |
that never was a little later in the programme. | :22:05. | :22:09. | |
If you are a smoker, it is currently the NHS's job to help you | :22:09. | :22:15. | |
quit. But from April, that responsibility shifts to local | :22:15. | :22:17. | |
councils. So should those council workers' pensions be invested in | :22:18. | :22:20. | |
tobacco stocks? Local authorities in the West Midlands have put | :22:20. | :22:23. | |
nearly �130 million into cigarette companies and many others across | :22:23. | :22:25. | |
the country have similar investments. It is a nice little | :22:25. | :22:33. | |
earner but have they allowed their ethics to go up in smoke? | :22:33. | :22:39. | |
Last year, smoking killed around 80,000 people in England. Latest | :22:39. | :22:43. | |
figures show it cost the NHS more than �5 billion treating related | :22:43. | :22:50. | |
diseases. That is why the NHS are keen to get the message across to | :22:50. | :22:56. | |
smokers to quit. I tried it on my own but I was never successful. Oil | :22:56. | :23:01. | |
was started smoking, especially during the holidays. Having someone | :23:01. | :23:07. | |
to speak to you and encourage you was better. Because of the way the | :23:07. | :23:11. | |
NHS is being reorganised, in April it will be your local councillor | :23:11. | :23:18. | |
who will be responsible for stopping people smoking. But I have | :23:18. | :23:22. | |
discovered via a series of Freedom of Information Act quiz, that | :23:22. | :23:30. | |
councils in the West Midlands are or investing up to nearly �130 | :23:30. | :23:36. | |
million in tobacco companies through their pension pots. -- | :23:36. | :23:45. | |
Freedom of Information request. They are trying to persuade people | :23:45. | :23:51. | |
to give up the product at the same time as this. What is the point? | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
You could argue that their campaigning against their own | :23:54. | :23:58. | |
interests as they are going along. They have got to get rid of the | :23:58. | :24:04. | |
conflict of interest. Councils are currently investing �21 million in | :24:04. | :24:08. | |
tobacco companies. They say it is because they have got to get the | :24:08. | :24:13. | |
best deal possible for their pensioners. Some people think there | :24:13. | :24:19. | |
is a conflict, but I do not think there is. We have an administrative | :24:19. | :24:24. | |
function rather than a political one. We administer the pension fund | :24:24. | :24:28. | |
and remind ourselves that this is the money of pensioners, not the | :24:28. | :24:35. | |
money from the council. We try to get the best return we can. There | :24:35. | :24:40. | |
is method in what some are describing as the council's madness. | :24:40. | :24:44. | |
Over the past decade, tobacco stocks have done twice as well as | :24:44. | :24:47. | |
the rest of the market and there had been to pay for a happy | :24:47. | :24:55. | |
retirement for many workers. Across Warwickshire, councils hold tobacco | :24:55. | :25:00. | |
shares worth seven. Million pounds. Councils in Staffordshire hold �31 | :25:00. | :25:05. | |
million, and the councils of the West Midlands have almost �60 | :25:05. | :25:10. | |
million. Will they change their tune? Staffordshire are the only | :25:10. | :25:15. | |
authority promising a review. For the others, it seems that tobacco | :25:15. | :25:21. | |
is a hard habit to kick. I think that is a good story. I am | :25:21. | :25:27. | |
amazed at these councils investing in tobacco companies. I thought | :25:27. | :25:30. | |
they were so politically aware that they would check with your money is | :25:30. | :25:37. | |
going. Absolutely. Recently they got in trouble with ill-advised | :25:37. | :25:42. | |
investments in Iceland. They lost a lot of public money. You would | :25:42. | :25:46. | |
think that in the wake of that they would have gone through all their | :25:46. | :25:50. | |
investments and wake up with they were wise Finance Lee, like the | :25:50. | :25:54. | |
Iceland mistake, but also whether they were ethical. This will be | :25:54. | :26:00. | |
hard to defend. The devil has the best investments. The highest rate | :26:00. | :26:08. | |
of return! The European Union condemns smoking but still | :26:08. | :26:13. | |
subsidises tobacco manufacturers. Some of the most potent tobacco | :26:13. | :26:21. | |
that the world makes, be subsidised as the ghost of it. -- and they | :26:21. | :26:27. | |
subsidise the production office. It is dumped in Africa. I think that | :26:27. | :26:30. | |
this report will probably trigger most councils to have a late | :26:30. | :26:35. | |
because it is not just tobacco, it is a whole lot of things. If you | :26:35. | :26:40. | |
want an ethical Investment Portfolio, they are available, but | :26:40. | :26:46. | |
they do not pay as much. More on a curious story we looked | :26:46. | :26:52. | |
at yesterday. You may recall that former Children's Minister Tim | :26:52. | :26:55. | |
Loughton created a stir earlier in the week when he criticised his | :26:55. | :27:01. | |
former boss, Michael Gove. You can never have too much of a good thing | :27:01. | :27:04. | |
so before we hear about the latest twist in this tale, here is a | :27:04. | :27:08. | |
reminder of what he told the Education Select Committee. There | :27:08. | :27:13. | |
is an upstairs downstairs mentality in the department. The ministers | :27:13. | :27:18. | |
are all on the 7th floor. Officials are summoned to her office when I | :27:18. | :27:25. | |
just wanted to have a quick chat. If I wanted to do that, the meeting | :27:25. | :27:28. | |
had to go in the diary. Occasionally I went to another | :27:28. | :27:33. | |
flower and it was like a state visit. Most officials have never | :27:33. | :27:38. | |
met the Secretary of State, other than when he will troop out some | :27:38. | :27:44. | |
chosen people for the new year party, like Mr Grace from Grace | :27:44. | :27:48. | |
Brothers, to tell us we have all done terribly well. | :27:48. | :27:51. | |
How has that gone down in the Department For Education? Not well | :27:51. | :27:55. | |
is the answer. Fraser's magazine, the Spectator, carried a story | :27:55. | :27:57. | |
yesterday quoting an unnamed government source who did not hold | :27:57. | :28:00. | |
back when it came to Mr Loughton. back when it came to Mr Loughton. | :28:00. | :28:10. | |
:28:10. | :28:22. | ||
back when it came to Mr Loughton. Some of that was clearly | :28:22. | :28:25. | |
unparliamentary language but there is a little bit of confusion around | :28:25. | :28:29. | |
about what our next parliamentarian was getting at in a Commons debate. | :28:29. | :28:32. | |
Here is Christchurch MP Christopher Chope in the House of Commons | :28:32. | :28:40. | |
yesterday. Before I do that, let's get your reaction. This was a | :28:40. | :28:47. | |
senior Department source. This was not an off-the-cuff reaction. They | :28:47. | :28:51. | |
have been looking with increasing anger at the pauses that Tim | :28:51. | :28:57. | |
Loughton has been striking since he left. I think he thought he could | :28:57. | :29:01. | |
take a free hit at his old department, and slag off his old | :29:01. | :29:06. | |
boss. He has found out that you cannot do that and not expect some | :29:06. | :29:11. | |
form of retaliation, especially if you're playing a card that your | :29:11. | :29:17. | |
colleagues do not believe you were ever entitled to play. What would | :29:17. | :29:21. | |
you advise Tim Loughton to say in retaliation? I would not give him | :29:22. | :29:28. | |
any advice because this is so much fun. That quote is every | :29:28. | :29:38. | |
:29:38. | :29:38. | ||
journalists's dream. The Department for Education has been extremely | :29:38. | :29:42. | |
good under Michael Gove at making enemies. It now seems to be quite | :29:42. | :29:48. | |
good at making enemies even of former ministers. I think they are | :29:48. | :29:57. | |
slightly too happy. Michael Gove is such a gentle man. It is almost | :29:57. | :30:02. | |
impossible to think of him saying a bad word about anybody, but that is | :30:02. | :30:12. | |
:30:12. | :30:12. | ||
not to say that the rest of his I dined, on all three nights, in | :30:12. | :30:22. | |
:30:22. | :30:25. | ||
the dining rooms, and almost nobody But the service was absolutely | :30:25. | :30:28. | |
fantastic, Mr Speaker, because there was three servants for each | :30:28. | :30:38. | |
:30:38. | :30:40. | ||
person sitting down. Yes! Exactly! Can the Tories ever learn, plebs | :30:40. | :30:45. | |
and now servants? That was a slip of the tongue, I am sure he sat | :30:45. | :30:50. | |
down, it will look terrible, because it revives memories of | :30:50. | :30:55. | |
plebgate and stuff, but I think this simply was a man taking a | :30:55. | :31:00. | |
alliteration a little bit too far. Well, he got out of it by saying, | :31:00. | :31:04. | |
we are all servants! Would you buy that? It would have been better to | :31:04. | :31:10. | |
say it was a slip of the town, the word is waiter. It was probably not | :31:10. | :31:14. | |
meant in a derogatory way, but it does not help, because when a | :31:14. | :31:17. | |
Conservative politician is overheard making a remark like this, | :31:17. | :31:24. | |
it adds to the impression of them being out-of-touch toffs. | :31:24. | :31:27. | |
Christopher Chope lets the cat out of the back by referring to House | :31:27. | :31:33. | |
of Commons waiters as servants! The Tories cannot escape this class | :31:33. | :31:37. | |
trope, can they? They are vulnerable to this attack, and | :31:37. | :31:41. | |
David Cameron fears is more than anything else. This is their state | :31:41. | :31:46. | |
of Kryptonite to wave against him, and he just cowers. Similarly, they | :31:46. | :31:51. | |
cannot handle it very well. They should have said, first off, sorry, | :31:51. | :31:56. | |
there are millions of waiters in this country, and the idea that the | :31:56. | :32:02. | |
Tories consider them servants is manna from heaven for Labour. | :32:02. | :32:07. | |
easy how little slips of the tongue can be stared up into real rows. | :32:07. | :32:11. | |
Upstairs downstairs again, it is not a good luck for the Tory party. | :32:11. | :32:16. | |
OK, do we have any idea now, coming back to the Prime Minister, when | :32:16. | :32:22. | |
this speech is going to be re scheduled? We don't. It is hard to | :32:22. | :32:25. | |
believe he's going to wait more than another week. We already know | :32:25. | :32:29. | |
the key points, we have seen phrases from it. If he leaves it | :32:29. | :32:33. | |
more than seven days, it is going to become even more of a farce that | :32:33. | :32:38. | |
it was a few days ago. He needs to visit Disneyland, somewhere in | :32:38. | :32:42. | |
Europe, give it and come back. does he have to go to Europe to | :32:42. | :32:47. | |
give it? It was supposed to be the symbolism, I am here, I am | :32:47. | :32:51. | |
committed, still part of the club, I want us to remain in, but I think | :32:51. | :32:58. | |
you are right, he should just get on and give the speech and move on. | :32:58. | :33:02. | |
Can he do that old trick of a letter to his constituents which | :33:02. | :33:07. | |
never gets to his constituents? Liam Fox does that. I don't know. | :33:07. | :33:12. | |
He is going to have to... I think he has got a mild case of | :33:12. | :33:16. | |
microphone phobia, the needs to get in front of it and come out with it. | :33:17. | :33:20. | |
We will leave at there and see what happens. Thank you both for being | :33:21. | :33:25. | |
with me today. Coming up in a moment, our monthly look at what | :33:25. | :33:29. | |
has been happening in European politics, but for now it is time to | :33:29. | :33:33. | |
say goodbye to my two guests, Fraser Nelson and Miranda Green. | :33:33. | :33:37. | |
This week members of the European Parliament have been meeting in | :33:37. | :33:40. | |
Strasbourg for their regular plenary session, so what have they | :33:40. | :33:44. | |
been getting up to, and what else has been happening? Here's our | :33:44. | :33:54. | |
:33:54. | :33:56. | ||
guide to the latest from Europe in It is goodbye cybrid SARS Ireland | :33:56. | :34:02. | |
takes over the presidency of the EU. -- Cyprus as. Enda Kenny says that | :34:02. | :34:06. | |
Europe is at a crossroads. This presidency will be all about | :34:07. | :34:11. | |
stability and jobs and growth. have been on the minds of MEPs as | :34:11. | :34:16. | |
they called on member states to introduce a guarantee that no-one | :34:16. | :34:19. | |
and a 25 goes without work or training for more than four months. | :34:19. | :34:24. | |
But it is good news if you have got a job working for the EU, this | :34:24. | :34:27. | |
month a levy on their salaries first introduced in 2004 has | :34:27. | :34:34. | |
expired, which means that basic pay has gone up by 5.5%. Credit rating | :34:34. | :34:39. | |
agencies face tougher rules after a vote by MEPs. Many of them blame | :34:39. | :34:42. | |
the agencies for contributing to the financial crisis. And European | :34:42. | :34:46. | |
foreign ministers have met to discuss the French military action | :34:46. | :34:49. | |
and Mali. The EU will send a military training mission, but | :34:49. | :34:59. | |
:34:59. | :35:02. | ||
And with us for the next 30 minutes, and joined by Labour MEP Mary | :35:02. | :35:08. | |
Honeyball, and UKIP MEP Roger Helmer. Welcome to you both. Let's | :35:08. | :35:12. | |
look at one of those stories in more detail, the vote to rein in | :35:12. | :35:16. | |
the influence of the credit rating agencies. I would suggest that | :35:16. | :35:22. | |
given the role of the agencies in the run-up to the financial crash, | :35:22. | :35:26. | |
at some stage they were going to be more regulated. I think that is | :35:26. | :35:30. | |
absolutely right, Andrew. Credit rating agencies have evolved | :35:30. | :35:35. | |
recently from being simply information givers, which is what | :35:35. | :35:39. | |
they were originally setting out to do, to actually having a big impact | :35:39. | :35:45. | |
on policy. Clearly, they have done that. The crash a couple of years | :35:45. | :35:49. | |
ago was largely to do with the credit rating agencies, the way | :35:49. | :35:54. | |
they behaved in the United States, with mortgages... Continuing to | :35:54. | :36:00. | |
give AAA ratings... When they clearly were not. At just as badly, | :36:00. | :36:04. | |
they have had an effect on sovereign debt, on countries. This | :36:04. | :36:09. | |
country is desperate to keep its rating. Part of what gave the | :36:09. | :36:12. | |
agency's their importance was that legislators, parliaments, | :36:12. | :36:16. | |
governments in various countries, and even at the macro level, they | :36:16. | :36:23. | |
gave them almost an official status. -- Bert EU level. They said that | :36:23. | :36:26. | |
people at Bryn Estyn AAA bonds. is is a case of shooting the | :36:26. | :36:34. | |
messenger. OK, they did a rotten job of protecting the crisis. But | :36:34. | :36:40. | |
nobody has a good record on that. This amounts to an attack on free | :36:40. | :36:46. | |
speech. These independent agencies are entitled to an opinion. Should | :36:46. | :36:52. | |
they still have an opinion? But they will not have the same weight. | :36:52. | :36:55. | |
These were serious attempts to curtail what they were able to say, | :36:56. | :36:59. | |
and that is wrong. It is interesting that their opinion does | :36:59. | :37:03. | |
not matter so much, they have downgraded France and the United | :37:03. | :37:06. | |
States, and they are still borrowing as cheaply as we are. | :37:06. | :37:11. | |
That may be true, but I think Roger is being a bit disingenuous with | :37:11. | :37:15. | |
this for it is not just about them having an opinion, it is about the | :37:16. | :37:19. | |
effect that the opinion had. You may be right that that that effect | :37:20. | :37:24. | |
is not as important as it was, but the point of these legislation was | :37:24. | :37:28. | |
to make the way they operate more open, so we could understand it, so | :37:28. | :37:33. | |
there was a level of accountability. It is a good piece of legislation. | :37:33. | :37:37. | |
Before events in Algeria unfolded, MEPs in Strasbourg were discussing | :37:38. | :37:41. | |
the Islamist offensive in the neighbouring African country are | :37:41. | :37:47. | |
Mali. One prominent MEP said it underlined the continued lack of a | :37:47. | :37:51. | |
common foreign policy, so what has been the response, and should it | :37:51. | :37:55. | |
have had one anyway? Yesterday EU foreign ministers were called in to | :37:55. | :37:59. | |
an emergency meeting in Brussels to talk about Mali, and a promise to | :37:59. | :38:02. | |
speed up the deployment of a training mission to support African | :38:02. | :38:07. | |
troops. But of course it is France acting individually and acting | :38:07. | :38:11. | |
quickly to send their forces to the north of the country with the | :38:11. | :38:14. | |
support of other countries, including the United Kingdom on | :38:14. | :38:19. | |
logistics. Perhaps this illustrates the challenge facing Baroness | :38:19. | :38:24. | |
Ashton, the High Representative of the EU foreign ministry. Her job | :38:24. | :38:30. | |
was created under the Lisbon Treaty, supported by the external actions | :38:31. | :38:35. | |
servers. They won praise for their diplomacy over Iran's nuclear | :38:35. | :38:40. | |
ambitions, but when it comes to major interventions, such as in | :38:40. | :38:44. | |
Libya or Mali, it has been member- states that have taken the lead. | :38:44. | :38:48. | |
You may remember the former US Secretary of State Henry Kissinger | :38:48. | :38:53. | |
once asked, who rely call if I want to call Europe? His successor, | :38:53. | :38:57. | |
Hillary Clinton, she is said to get on well with Baroness Ashton, but | :38:57. | :39:03. | |
it is still not clear if the question has been answered. What | :39:03. | :39:07. | |
role has the European Union played in the unfolding events in the | :39:07. | :39:11. | |
Maghreb? I think you describe it perfectly, that the action has come | :39:12. | :39:16. | |
from one member states, France, which is now being assisted by | :39:16. | :39:19. | |
Britain, so you have two member states on an inter-governmental | :39:19. | :39:23. | |
basis starting out on that project. Then you have the European Union | :39:23. | :39:27. | |
running along behind and desperately trying to bowl on | :39:27. | :39:31. | |
sunbeds so that afterwards it can say it is a European initiative, a | :39:31. | :39:37. | |
European initiative. -- bowled on some bits. Baroness Ashton has been | :39:37. | :39:41. | |
wholly ineffective since she has been appointed, and her foreign | :39:41. | :39:46. | |
service is forecast and no benefit. Inter-governmental ism can work | :39:46. | :39:52. | |
very well, the European Union is, in effect, a relevant. Well, it is | :39:52. | :39:56. | |
not irrelevant, and the point that Roger has very carefully not talked | :39:56. | :40:00. | |
about is that these kind of foreign policy initiatives are, in fact, | :40:00. | :40:04. | |
taken by member states, they always have been, and it has never been | :40:04. | :40:09. | |
part of the EU remit of foreign affairs to do that. So what is the | :40:09. | :40:12. | |
point of having Cathy Ashton? Because it brings its together and | :40:12. | :40:18. | |
it allows the EU to do what it was set up to do, and what these | :40:18. | :40:20. | |
particular foreign policy initiatives was set up to do, | :40:20. | :40:24. | |
provide humanitarian and non- combatant aid where it is necessary. | :40:24. | :40:30. | |
That is actually what she is doing. So what is the EU's foreign policy | :40:30. | :40:34. | |
en Mali? What is happening is that Baroness Ashton brought together | :40:34. | :40:39. | |
the heads for all the member states' foreign offices a few days | :40:39. | :40:44. | |
ago, and they agreed there would be a EU training mission to Mali | :40:44. | :40:48. | |
through to enable them to set up better and more sustainable | :40:48. | :40:52. | |
democracy, a kind of enabling mission. It is nothing to do with | :40:52. | :40:56. | |
the fighting, as indeed the UK is not part of the fighting. It is | :40:56. | :41:00. | |
enabling the EU to claim to be involved. It is providing | :41:00. | :41:05. | |
assistance to the people of Mali, who are finding themselves in is | :41:05. | :41:08. | |
impossible situation, where they have terrorists in the north of the | :41:08. | :41:11. | |
country, which is what the French are helping the Government's deal | :41:11. | :41:17. | |
with. The EU is providing a very small amount of assistance to help | :41:17. | :41:22. | |
the democracy in Mali. That is not really foreign policy, is it? It | :41:22. | :41:26. | |
could come under international aid. Does the EU support the French | :41:26. | :41:30. | |
intervention? That is part of a bilateral agreement between us and | :41:30. | :41:37. | |
France... Does the EU support it? I know why the UK is involved, as a | :41:37. | :41:41. | |
nation-state, and we have a treaty arrangement with France to help, as | :41:41. | :41:47. | |
they were supposedly help us, too, but what is the EU policy? | :41:47. | :41:50. | |
supports the initiative, and it wants to jump onto the bandwagon. | :41:50. | :41:55. | |
It is not jumping onto the bandwagon, Roger. It does support | :41:55. | :41:59. | |
the initiative. It followed a long. It did not take the initiative | :41:59. | :42:04. | |
because it is not the EU's role, that is the point. I think it is | :42:04. | :42:08. | |
all right as it is. I would not like to see an extension of the | :42:08. | :42:13. | |
foreign policy role, because I would not, no, I wouldn't, because | :42:13. | :42:18. | |
I think what you are dealing with, obviously, in the EU is a grouping | :42:18. | :42:21. | |
of 27 countries, and I think it is difficult in the present | :42:21. | :42:26. | |
circumstances to get any kind of agreement. A lot of those 27 do not | :42:26. | :42:29. | |
want collective foreign policy. Here's another thought, it is | :42:29. | :42:32. | |
probably going to be a long time before that changes! I think you | :42:32. | :42:37. | |
are probably right. It has reached its limit and gone beyond. Since we | :42:37. | :42:42. | |
are agreed, we will move on! If David Cameron had stood up in | :42:42. | :42:46. | |
Amsterdam, his speech would have been heard across the Continent. | :42:46. | :42:50. | |
Britain's attitude to Europe and his desire to renegotiate the | :42:50. | :42:54. | |
relationship with the EU is a hot topic for politicians, not just | :42:54. | :42:57. | |
here but across the European Continent, as David Thomson has | :42:57. | :43:07. | |
:43:07. | :43:08. | ||
Strasbourg on ice, a parliament waiting to see where David Cameron | :43:08. | :43:11. | |
takes Britain and perhaps the rest of Europe. We will have to wait a | :43:11. | :43:15. | |
little bit longer now, but let's speed things up with a quick guide | :43:15. | :43:20. | |
to what they make of us and our Prime Minister. Europe is a family, | :43:20. | :43:24. | |
and of course there are good pupils and bad pupils, at now we have the | :43:24. | :43:30. | |
impression that the UK are proud to be the worst pupils in the | :43:30. | :43:38. | |
classroom! Mr Cameron asking for a renegotiation of the position in | :43:38. | :43:41. | |
the union, if we start with that and other countries can follow, | :43:41. | :43:45. | |
then for example France can start and as for the negotiations, | :43:45. | :43:49. | |
because they do not like the competition rules. German could ask | :43:49. | :43:53. | |
for a new statute in Europe because they do not like to pay for other | :43:53. | :43:59. | |
countries. At the end, we should have 27 different statutes for the | :43:59. | :44:03. | |
27 different countries. So that cannot work. We all know the | :44:03. | :44:07. | |
argument for renegotiation. Since we joined the EU, we have changed, | :44:07. | :44:11. | |
it has changed, the world has changed. Therefore why should not | :44:11. | :44:15. | |
be treaties which bind us changed to reflect that? The question is, | :44:15. | :44:18. | |
will our European neighbours, the heavy hitters in Strasbourg, buy | :44:18. | :44:23. | |
it? The good news for David Cameron... I think there is more | :44:23. | :44:27. | |
support than you think, because lots of people are unhappy. They | :44:27. | :44:31. | |
are in favour of the EU, but they wanted to reform, the Netherlands, | :44:31. | :44:37. | |
perhaps the Scandinavian countries. There may be some people in Germany | :44:37. | :44:41. | |
saying that we should reform the European Union because the Brussels | :44:41. | :44:45. | |
bureaucracy is not regarded as efficient. Now, he is a member of | :44:45. | :44:48. | |
the same group in the European Parliament as Britain's | :44:48. | :44:51. | |
Conservative MEPs, so you might expect him to support David Cameron, | :44:52. | :44:56. | |
but members of the Dutch governing party are not dismissive of his | :44:56. | :45:00. | |
approach either. We want to hear what he is proposing. We want to | :45:00. | :45:06. | |
look at it and say, where can we support you? We do not say no to | :45:06. | :45:10. | |
renegotiation, we say, let's sits down and talk. I say to those in | :45:10. | :45:14. | |
France to say, no discussion at all, we want France to be in, we want | :45:15. | :45:24. | |
:45:25. | :45:25. | ||
Britain to be in, so we have to be Renegotiation might not be as | :45:25. | :45:29. | |
impossible as it is sometimes painted us. But David Cameron might | :45:30. | :45:36. | |
be careful about what he wishes for. Renegotiation always entails | :45:36. | :45:46. | |
:45:46. | :45:49. | ||
several partners. It would be naive to it accept at one side gets all. | :45:49. | :45:52. | |
Joint banking supervision in the City of London would be one | :45:52. | :46:00. | |
concession that Europe would be looking for. We want to have great | :46:00. | :46:05. | |
Britain inside of the European Union. We must go one step in the | :46:05. | :46:11. | |
direction of Great Britain. Let's speak about the issues. But there | :46:11. | :46:18. | |
are deadlines, as well, for Germany. Unifier us think that Britain | :46:19. | :46:25. | |
should either put up or shut up. What is not possible is that any | :46:25. | :46:35. | |
:46:35. | :46:39. | ||
member states can have one foot in and the other foot out. -- unifiers. | :46:39. | :46:45. | |
We need the UK with both feet in the EU. But if it is chat -- if it | :46:45. | :46:49. | |
is the choice of the British people, it would be better to have two the | :46:49. | :46:59. | |
:46:59. | :47:01. | ||
doubt. That would leave David Cameron in the cold. This is | :47:01. | :47:05. | |
negotiation, Strasbourg style. And we are joined from Brussels now by | :47:06. | :47:08. | |
the Conservative MEP and chairman of the Conservatives and Reformist | :47:08. | :47:11. | |
Group in the European Parliament, Martin Callanan, and here in London | :47:11. | :47:13. | |
by the former permanent representative to the European | :47:13. | :47:23. | |
:47:23. | :47:25. | ||
Union, Stephen Wall. Good afternoon. Is there really an appetite to do | :47:25. | :47:29. | |
serious negotiation with the British on repatriating powers | :47:29. | :47:35. | |
among the other member states? think he heard the reaction from | :47:35. | :47:40. | |
several leading MEPs. I was quite surprised by how positive some of | :47:40. | :47:47. | |
them were that the prospect. But MEPs are the most federalist in the | :47:47. | :47:51. | |
whole of the European Union. The heads of government are more | :47:51. | :47:56. | |
pragmatic. When they think about the possibility of Britain leaving, | :47:56. | :48:01. | |
not least our budget contribution, as an advantage, they will think | :48:01. | :48:05. | |
about to renegotiation. Do you believe that there is any chance | :48:05. | :48:10. | |
that even if they are pragmatic and prepared to go down this route some | :48:10. | :48:15. | |
way, that they would give anything like enough that would satisfy the | :48:15. | :48:20. | |
Euro-sceptics on the Tory backbenches? I think there is a | :48:20. | :48:26. | |
good chance. We certainly have to try. Public disenchantment with the | :48:26. | :48:31. | |
EU is massive in the UK. We have to have public support if we are to | :48:31. | :48:36. | |
remain members. That is why it is important that we give a solid | :48:36. | :48:40. | |
commitment to a referendum to give people a chance of accepting that | :48:40. | :48:46. | |
the brand new settlement or leaving. There has not been a referendum | :48:46. | :48:51. | |
since 1975 on Europe and there is public demand for one. It will help | :48:51. | :48:55. | |
to concentrate the minds of those politicians who are doing the | :48:55. | :49:00. | |
negotiations. Our partners will know that they have to satisfy the | :49:00. | :49:06. | |
British people. He is saying that this is going with the grain of the | :49:06. | :49:11. | |
British people. The British a Euro- sceptic, they want to repatriate | :49:11. | :49:19. | |
powers, or what is wrong with that? Overall if you look at the opinion | :49:19. | :49:22. | |
polls there are some people that one tout and some people who want | :49:22. | :49:26. | |
to stay in, and some people if you want less Europe, but not | :49:26. | :49:36. | |
:49:36. | :49:36. | ||
necessarily know Europe. As to having a referendum, at David | :49:36. | :49:41. | |
Cameron finds himself in the situation that Harold Wilson was in. | :49:41. | :49:49. | |
-- no. Then our partners said that they would not change the treaty. | :49:49. | :49:59. | |
You have to accept that. We want to know that if the negotiations | :49:59. | :50:02. | |
succeed she will recommend to the people of Britain that we stay. | :50:02. | :50:08. | |
Will that be true? Gave Mr Cameron succeeds in getting what he would | :50:08. | :50:12. | |
regard as enough in terms of repatriation, he has made it clear | :50:12. | :50:18. | |
that he will say, a vote, yes, to stay in on these brand new terms. | :50:18. | :50:23. | |
think he probably will. It will depend on the results of the | :50:23. | :50:29. | |
renegotiation. There is a positive attitude from both sides. There has | :50:29. | :50:33. | |
to be a referendum because people will know that it will be a choice | :50:33. | :50:39. | |
of in or out on the brand new terms. We have to try and reach a brand | :50:39. | :50:43. | |
new deal because the current settlement is unsatisfactory. Even | :50:43. | :50:48. | |
Ed Miliband said on the radio yesterday that he is in favour of | :50:48. | :50:55. | |
renegotiation. We could have cross- party agreement on this. | :50:55. | :51:00. | |
Unfortunately labour are not signed up to a referendum yet. Where does | :51:00. | :51:06. | |
this leave UKIP? I think I agree with Stephen. David Cameron will | :51:06. | :51:11. | |
have the gravest difficulty getting anything more than cosmetic changes. | :51:11. | :51:17. | |
He will not get substantial changes. Martin sounds optimistic, he has a | :51:17. | :51:21. | |
party line to follow, but my view is that they've David Cameron | :51:22. | :51:26. | |
attempts to negotiate he will not come back with anything significant. | :51:26. | :51:30. | |
But I look beyond that to the outcome because if we have a | :51:30. | :51:35. | |
referendum would be renegotiated package is a trivial renegotiation, | :51:35. | :51:39. | |
as it was in the case of Harold Wilson, and the British people feel | :51:39. | :51:44. | |
they have been rebuffed by Europe, that will be an enormous boost both | :51:44. | :51:54. | |
:51:54. | :51:54. | ||
for my party but for the no side. We have the re-election of David | :51:55. | :51:59. | |
Cameron or not between now and then so whether we get a referendum is | :51:59. | :52:06. | |
an open question. What is Labour's position on this? Ed Miliband has | :52:06. | :52:11. | |
said that we do not want a referendum at the minute. I think | :52:11. | :52:16. | |
we need to inject realism into the discussion we're having. We do not | :52:16. | :52:21. | |
know what will be repatriated. We do not know what any of this will | :52:21. | :52:25. | |
be about. We do not know the timescale and the outcome is not | :52:25. | :52:31. | |
known. It is fantasy to start speaking about a referendum when we | :52:31. | :52:34. | |
do not have the faintest idea when it will be and what it will be | :52:34. | :52:41. | |
about. That is not true. I Group of Tory backbenchers have given us a | :52:41. | :52:46. | |
list of major powers that they would like to repatriate. They are | :52:46. | :52:54. | |
pretty close to the David Cameron project. -- a group of Tory | :52:54. | :53:01. | |
backbenchers. Yes. David Cameron himself has spoken about several | :53:01. | :53:06. | |
areas. One EC Social Chapter, and the other is rules on benefits for | :53:06. | :53:12. | |
migrants. His difficulty a few wants to reopen the social chapter | :53:12. | :53:16. | |
it is that we need to have the treaty change to renew the opt-out | :53:16. | :53:21. | |
from the social chapter that John Major negotiated. If he wants to | :53:21. | :53:25. | |
change the directors, which is not impossible, the European Commission | :53:25. | :53:30. | |
will have to be persuaded to bring forward a proposal. He would have | :53:30. | :53:36. | |
to build alliances. The other thing that is hinted at in the | :53:36. | :53:39. | |
Conservative document that is interesting is that if we're in | :53:40. | :53:42. | |
this situation where there is a group of Eurozone countries getting | :53:43. | :53:49. | |
closer together, and some, not just Britain, outside the Eurozone, how | :53:49. | :53:55. | |
do we ensure that the institutions are not disadvantaged? On the | :53:55. | :53:59. | |
single market day is a built-in majority among the Eurozone that | :53:59. | :54:03. | |
could override this issue. That would be a difficult issue to | :54:03. | :54:13. | |
:54:13. | :54:14. | ||
negotiate, but it would be in the British interests. -- interest. | :54:14. | :54:20. | |
will give you the final word. How worried are you about UKIP and the | :54:20. | :54:25. | |
threat to the Conservatives winning an overall majority in 2013? | :54:25. | :54:32. | |
they are going to take thought away from us, that is a threat. But I | :54:32. | :54:36. | |
think Roger Rees being churlish. He has been campaigning genuinely for | :54:36. | :54:42. | |
a referendum for many years. Here is David Cameron offering him that | :54:42. | :54:47. | |
referendum. I think the least he could do is welcome it. This gives | :54:47. | :54:52. | |
us a chance to say to be disenchanted Conservative voters, | :54:52. | :54:56. | |
series the referendum that you want. It is only a Conservative | :54:56. | :55:02. | |
government that will deliver it. will give him a chance to welcome | :55:02. | :55:08. | |
it when we finally hear the speech. Arguing Brussels or Strasbourg, I | :55:08. | :55:15. | |
cannot remember? I am in Brussels. I was in Amsterdam, but you | :55:15. | :55:20. | |
cancelled my trip from there! is the Prime Minister that | :55:20. | :55:26. | |
cancelled it. But I am sorry about that. We cannot waste the licence | :55:26. | :55:30. | |
fee. We all know that Brussels employs | :55:30. | :55:35. | |
its fair share of bureaucrats, translators and politicians. But | :55:35. | :55:39. | |
they are not alone. They are joined by hordes of lobbyists. Why are | :55:39. | :55:42. | |
they there and who are they trying to influence? Here is Adam Fleming | :55:42. | :55:51. | |
with the latest letter in his A-Z of Europe. L for lobbying. | :55:51. | :55:58. | |
Welcome to Luxembourg. This is Ground Zero for schmoozing. As the | :55:58. | :56:03. | |
powers of the EU have grown, so have the number of lobbyists. It is | :56:03. | :56:13. | |
:56:13. | :56:18. | ||
estimated there are between 15,030 1,000 of them. -- between 15,000 | :56:18. | :56:25. | |
and 30,000. There are charity groups and Industry organising | :56:25. | :56:31. | |
meetings for the powerful. Outside the European Parliament, there is | :56:31. | :56:35. | |
even a tree dedicated to lobbyists. And there are plenty of | :56:35. | :56:40. | |
opportunities for them. You can try to coax the commission whose job it | :56:40. | :56:45. | |
is to come up with brand-new laws that might affect your industry. Or | :56:45. | :56:51. | |
why not try cajoling countries to nudge the EU in your direction? Or | :56:51. | :56:57. | |
you can persuade Parliament to alter legislation in your favour. | :56:57. | :57:02. | |
There have been some scandals. Last year the Health Commissioner | :57:02. | :57:06. | |
resigned after being linked to a cash for legislation case link to | :57:06. | :57:11. | |
tobacco. He has always denied doing anything wrong. They have | :57:11. | :57:15. | |
introduced a code of conduct for lobbyists in an effort to make | :57:15. | :57:22. | |
things more transparent. But it is voluntary. Campaigners complain | :57:22. | :57:27. | |
about the revolving door. There is a massive number of people who | :57:27. | :57:31. | |
leave the European institutions and walk straight into jobs where they | :57:31. | :57:37. | |
peddle their influence. One person who did that is a former member of | :57:37. | :57:42. | |
the European Parliament called Nick Clegg. But everyone is agreed that | :57:42. | :57:46. | |
the year is far less money sloshing around the system here than in | :57:46. | :57:52. | |
Washington DC. -- but everyone in Brussels is agreed that there is | :57:52. | :57:57. | |
far less money. Coincidentally, the number of lobbyists there is | :57:57. | :58:03. | |
exactly the same. If Brussels was subjected to the | :58:03. | :58:07. | |
same amount of scrutiny as Westminster, lobbying would be the | :58:07. | :58:11. | |
next big scandal? At am not sure about that but the rules do need | :58:11. | :58:16. | |
tightening up. We are making progress but the register should be | :58:16. | :58:22. | |
mandatory rather than voluntary. Your report was quite the rocketry, | :58:22. | :58:29. | |
saying that lobbyists have a lot of money. -- do rocketry. It is not | :58:29. | :58:36. | |
like that. I'm knead the Music Industry in my office and I speak | :58:36. | :58:43. | |
to them about the issues. You think everything is fine. People speak | :58:43. | :58:48. | |
about industry lobbyists. There are lots of non-governmental lobbyists | :58:48. | :58:57. |