23/01/2013 Daily Politics

us to settle this question about Good morning folks. Welcome to the

Daily Politics. The Prime Minister promises an in and out out

referendum on the European Union before 2018. But before that he

will try to negotiate a better deal for Britain that he can say yes to.

David Cameron argues the reform of the EU to make it more competitive

and he says if we can negotiate such an agreement, he will campaign

for Britain to stay in. We will bring you reaction to that speech

from the worlds of politics and business and we have got Prime

Minister's Questions live at noon. And have we got the news wrong?

Designer Wayne Hemmingway makes a plea for more good news.

On the whole, stories that could move mankind forward and impact on

our lives don't get the exposure they deserve.

Good news, it will never catch on! What happened to Martin Lewis. He

argued for that. With us for the duration on this big day for

British politics, two politicians. Shadow Energy Secretary and former

Europe Minister, that's relevant, it is Caroline Flint and

Conservative Party chairman, Grant Shapps. Welcome to you both. Thank

you. Thank you.

So if David Cameron is Prime Minister after the next general

election, he says the British people will get a vote vote on

whether we should remain members of the European Union by 2018, giving

him time to negotiate the repatriation of major powers from

Brussels back to Britain. The Prime Minister said in a speech in London

this morning, delayed from last Friday because of the Algerian

hostage crisis. Jo has the details. The Prime Minister said that he

wanted the European Union and Britain's relationship to it to

change. The EU interfierce too much in natural life. Powers should be

repattry repattry -- repattry repatriated to the United Kingdom.

The treaty commitment for all member states should be removed.

Some countries might want to pursue further inger further integration,

but Britain does not. David Cameron would seek to negotiate a new deal

with Europe. He set out a rough timetable. Legislation will be

drafted before the next election. If the Conservatives win an overall

majority at the election, they will pass the new law in their first

year in Government and the referendum itself will be held in

the first-half of the Parliament by the beginning of 2018. He concluded

by saying if he could renegotiate a new settlement, he would campaign

to stay in the EU. That, he said, was the best path for Britain and

for Europe. Let's have a listen to what Mr Cameron had to say.

biggest danger to the European Union comes not from those who

advocate change, but from those who denounce new thinking as heresy. In

its long history, Europe has experience of her particulars who

turned out to have a point. My point is this, more of the same

will not secure a long-term future for the eurozone, more of the same

will not see the European Union keeping pace with the new

Powerhouse economies, more of the same will not bring the European

Union closer to its citizens. More of the same will just produce more

of the same. Less competitiveness, less growth, fewer jobs. Today

public disillusionment with the EU is at an all time high and there

are several reasons. People feel that the EU is heading in a

direction that they never signed up to. They resent the interference in

our national life life by what they see as unnecessary rules and

regulation. They wondered what the point of it is? They ask why can't

we have what we voted to join - a Common Market. Now some argue that

the solution is therefore, to hold a straight in/out referendum now.

Now, I understand the impatience of wanting to make that choice

immediately, I don't believe that to make a decision at this moment

is the right way forward either for Britain or for Europe as a whole. A

vote today today between the status quo and leaving would be an

entirely false choice. Now, while the EU is in flux, and when we

don't know what the future holds and what sort of EU will emerge

from this crisis is not the time to make such a momentous decision

about the future of our country. It is wrong to ask people whether to

stay or go before we have had a chance to put the relationship

right. How can we sensibly answer the question - in or out? Without

being able to answer the most basic question. What is it that we are

choosing to be in or out of? So the next Conservative manifesto in 2015

will ask for a mandate from the British people for a Conservative

Government to negotiate a new settlement with our European

partners in the next Parliament. It will be a relationship with the

single market at its heart. And when we have negotiated that new

settlement, we will give the British people a referendum with a

very simple in or out choice. To stay in the European Union on these

new terms or to come out altogether. It will be an in/out referendum.

Legislation will be drafted before the next election and if a

Conservative Government is elected, we will introduce the enabling

legislation and pass it by the end of that year. And we will complete

this negotiation and hold this referendum within the first-half of

the next Parliament. It is time for the British people to have their

say. It is time for us to settle this question about Britain and

Europe. Now, I understand the appeal of going it alone, of

charting our own course, but it will be a decision we will have to

take with cool heads. People on both side of the argument will need

to avoid exaggerating their claims. Of course, Britain could make her

own way in the world outside the EU if we chose to do so. So could any

other member state, but the question we will have to ask

ourselves, is that the best future for our country? We will have to

weigh carefully where our true national interests lies.

The Prime Minister speaking this morning. Joining Caroline Flint and

Grant Shapps, the deputy leader of UKIP, Paul Nuttall and we are

joined by the former leader of the Liberal Democrats, Charles Kennedy.

Welcome to you all. Grant gran, the Prime Minister -- Grant Shapps, the

Prime Minister said if we can negotiate such an arrange m, I will

campaign for it, with all my heart and soul to stay in. What happens

if he can't? We know there has to be a negotiation in any case

because you have got 17 countries within the eurozone who will

require a different treaty in order to handle the political aspects of

that closer union of currency. So in that case, they require our kind

of involvement in order to produce that new treaty and that of course,

is a negotiation into itself. So the idea that there could be no

negotiation, I think... No, no, I didn't ask that. I asked what

happens if he can't sufficient powers returned to Britain that he

thinks worthwhile recommending. What would he do then? We will have

a referendum. One step at a time. First of all, we are going to

publish legislation in this Parliament that we will pass in the

next Parliament. I know that. November 2017 we will have a

referendum based on what ever has been negotiated by then. You are

asking what will be negotiated? no, I'm saying if the Prime

Minister feels at the end of the day, that he is not -- he has not

got a big enough package of powers to recommend to the British people

what does he do in the referendum? Does he say we should still stay in

or we have got today's status quo, we should leave. What should he do?

Rather than trying to estimate the end of the process, let's be clear

about what the process is and know there will be a referendum. So

either way, people will get to choose and decide. That's vital.

The British people have been overlooked for too long.

You are not answering the question. The Prime Minister didn't answer

the question this morning either. But Michael Gove... The public will

answer the question. So does that matter? No, no, we are going to

have a referendum which does not have a package of repatriated

powers, we want to know what the Prime Minister will say? We don't

believe that will be the situation for the simple reason - well, it

won't be because there will be a renegotiation in order for the euro

countries to do what they want. We don't know what he wants out of

The British people will decide and... You won't answer the

question and the Prime Minister won't. Michael Gove told The Mail

on Sunday, you are only serious if you threaten to leave. That's what

he said. You are not serious, are you? Well, a referendum gives the

British people the upper han. They are not doing the negotiations,

you are, are you going to say to Europe, if we are do not get a

sufficient package which I can go to the British people and say,

"Vote to stay in." Will you say, we will leave? The answer is we don't

believe we will be in that position... You don't know, do you?

I can't see into the future. The process is simple. In the en, the

British people will get to decide. We have said we want a campaign to

be in, but on a new basis of renegotiation. It is impossible to

end up in the position that you describe.

Grant Shapps, none of this answers my question. But I know when I am

beaten, Caroline Flint? There will be some negotiation because there

is clearly... So we are agreed...? Hang on a second. The truth is

David Cameron, it is an important speech today for all of us in the

country, politicians and the public, said we will have a referendum by

the end of 2017, but it is on the basis of what we don't know is

going to be his, if you like, negotiating platform of what he

will decide, if I don't get this and if I don't get that, I will be

saying yes or no. It is an unknown where we are going now. It creates

uncertainty and in terms of building bridges, Andrew, in order

to get any changes, we have to get, you have to get agreement by all 27

member states. I don't think this is thought through about how we are

going to negotiate. If it is true, as the Prime Minister says, that he

would like to stay in the European Union.

If you don't want a in/out referendum, vote Labour?

position is we do not believe today, if we were in Government today,

Andrew and we have been asked if we would have a referendum, our

position is today where we stand as a country, it is not in this

country's interests to have an in/out referendum.

If you don't want a referendum on the EU, vote Labour? We are saying

that... Is that right? We are saying, actually we are saying

today we don't think it is right to spend the next five years.

You will not give the British people... I condition tell you what

the situation is going to be -- I can't tell you what the situation

is going to be at the next election when these changes go on in Europe.

You criticised him for not being able to tell me. If we were asked

do we think we should enter into discussions about an in/out

referendum. I can't tell you what the European Union situation will

be in two or three years time and in those circumstances we are not

ruling out, but we are saying it is a distraction.

You might offer an in/out referendum in the 2015 election?

You don't rule that out? We cannot rule in or out if you like the

possibility of having one in the future. What I'm saying... We have

supported in Parliament, legislation, we have got

legislation which says if there is a transfer.. You voted against it?

No, we didn't. No, we didn't. I have it here. No, no, I have got

your voteling record here. You voted against it.

We thought Parliament should decide. We did not vote against it. The

truth is, hang on, hang on. We have got law on the books that says if

there is a transfer of of powers there should be a referendum. It is

our law. Charles Kennedy and Paul Nuttall.

Charles Kennedy, your party was having a petition demanding an

in/out referendum. You must be pleased this morning? I have got

long form on this. Because I was in favour of a referendum and voted in

the House of Commons when I was a European spokesman back at the time

of Maastricht all those years ago. I always felt that, I felt we

should have had a referendum on Europe 25 years ago to try and

lance this boil. We never have. Where we are now, is first of all,

the one thing that is clear and it is only within the last ten days

that Ed Miliband has made this all party despite what has been said,

that that as a result of what we insisted in Government, the

coalition Government, you have got a law on the statute book that says

the future Prime Minister or Government negotiate a treaty at

European Union level which involves more powers going from the UK to

Brussels. There has got to be a referendum. So whatever the outcome

of the election, all parties accept that and that is a guarantee.

that's not an in slr out referendum. Your party at one stage was

gathering a petition for an in/out referendum. You must be pleased, we

Are we? The Prime Minister is not even able to answer question number

one. Can you answer mind? My answer to you is that he is not putting

forward an in-out referendum. He is saying if he is elected he will

begin a process of renegotiation, the outcome of which he does not

know, but he will put the outcome to the British people. That seems

to me as clear as mud. I thought you wanted and in out referendum?

When you have a referendum on Europe, as I hope we do one day,

and there is a legal mechanism now it there is a future treaty.

that is not in out. We know it is rather like the wording of the

question to be put to the Scots. Everyone knows the question, are

you for fundamentally against Europe? That is the argument and

what it will become. I think this is very ill judged from the Prime

Minister's point of view. What is the point of view Kip after today?

-- UKIP after today. This is as clear as mud. If you want the

reason why we have to be here, listen to these three. Because we

do not know. If UKIP did not exist and it was not bowling where it was,

the Prime Minister may not have -- would not have done this. That may

or may not have been, but the Conservatives are the only party

offering this. Will you run candidates in the Conservative

marginals? I think we should. could result in Labour winning the

marginal? It is hypothetical. You have the President of the European

Commission, the President of the European Council, the President of

France, the former Belgian Prime Minister, they have all said that

negotiation is not on the table. But it is even more hypothetical

that you would ever win an election so your only hope of an in out

referendum is for the Conservatives to get an overall majority at the

next election. You may not think it is a good enough promise but it is

your only hope because you are not going to do it. Surely the point is,

in the Liberal Democrat and Conservative manifestos, there were

clear promises for referendum. There was no referendum promise.

There was. You're mistaken. There was not. There was. No, I can tell

you as a fact, there was not. The Lisbon Treaty had already passed.

Cameron give a cast-iron guarantee. Just to be factually correct,...

had already broken the cast-iron guarantee. For me because Lisbon

was already past. We voted against it. -- only because. If you cannot

be trusted on that, how can you be trusted on this? He gave a cast-

iron guarantee that there would be a referendum on Lisbon. He broke it

as soon as they passed. It had already been broken. This is about

the Conservatives and UKIP politics. Cameron is running scared and

worried about UKIP voters. Prime Minister has said this is a

red line for any future coalition, Charles Kennedy, not that you would

suspect the Lib Dems to promote it, but that he would proceed to do it,

you would expect the coalition partners to abstain to allow the

referendum to happen. Will the Lib Dems go along with that orders at

about the possibility of a lid on coalition? -- or does that rule out

the possibility of a Liberal Democrats conservative coalition.

On the assumption that they would need another coalition. I could not

see us signing up to that, myself, quite frankly. I can only speak for

myself, because we're talking hypothetical. I think the preamble

to the question reveals the immense amount of questions that David

Cameron has raised for himself in this position. As opposed to

providing answers with this contribution. He is now into all

these hypothetical about the possible outcomes of an election, a

possible coalition negotiation, Possebon negotiations in Europe and

a possible referendum. He is going to have a hell of a time getting

through three weeks of an election campaign without putting flesh on

those bones. We will let you go, Charles Kennedy. I would suggest

that our viewers may think that all four of you have a lot of questions

to answer after this morning. It is not getting any clearer. Let

us get reaction from the Eurosceptic Conservative

backbencher, Mark Pritchard. Was it a good speech? It was. It was well

considered, for for one clever in many ways. All credit to the Prime

Minister. David Cameron is the first British Prime Minister to

offer the British people a referendum in that format decades.

It is also with an in-out option. That is considerable progress. I

pay tribute to him today. He did not make it clear what is

negotiating stance would be if he did not get the negotiating a deal

that he wanted. Are you presuming that he would then campaign to pull

Britain out? I would not presume to read his mind. Would you like to

have heard? I think you raised an important question. There are

challenges in the speech, not least whether Europe would allow us to

repatriate powers back. Certainly there are noises out of Brussels

and Paris this morning suggesting that they are reluctant to do so.

That means that, yes, the question that door to the Prime Minister

will be, "Prime Minister, which way would you campaign of the powers

are not coming back?" so there are challenges ahead. For people like

myself, who have voted for a referendum for many years ahead --

past, with many other members are not left Parliament, we have come a

long way. There is a consensus within the British Conservative

parliamentary party. I think you are right to point out the

challenges are now for the Lib Dems and the Labour Party. I think they

will change their position by the time of the next election but my

job is to give full support for the Prime Minister. He might be calling

for a more competitive, more flexible and democratic Europe.

That is a big shout. Lot of people would agree with that. -- In your

eyes, what is a renegotiated the go -- renegotiated relationship?

flexible, more competitive. And the more democratic Europe. But I think

one of the other challengers for the next five years, does that mean

that, to quote the Prime Minister, a does that mean more of the same?

There are issues around border controls, whether we can start to

repatriate social and employment laws and powers, trying to reduce

the number of regulations. Europe may be uncompetitive. Britain

should not continue to be not as competitive as it could be for the

next five years. So why you supporting, would you like those

powers repatriated? You agree fresh data's manifesto, an emergency

brake from any legislation that affects financial services, the

same with existing EU criminal- justice measures and policing. Are

those you read lines? I would not call them that. Has a long shopping

list and I think the fresh Start group has done an excellent job of

setting out some of the areas that we would like to see returning to

British sovereignty. There are challenges. The comments coming out

of Europe within the last few hours, it does not bode well. But the

Prime Minister is right to say that it does not mean we do not show

leadership and it does not mean that we do not set out to achieve

the very best for Britain. A better deal for Britain. I think it is my

job to support the Prime Minister. Whilst saying that any strategy on

Europe should be realistic and achievable, time will tell whether

it is unrealistic or achievable. And you want those negotiations to

start immediately? I do not think we should have more of the same for

five years. I do nothing that is acceptable for British business and

it does not help our competitors. We are being shackled by

regulations and red tape and bureaucracy from Europe. Yes,

support the Prime Minister but let's not wait for five years to

get on and do some of the stuff. Also, if Europe is saying no to

repatriating powers, we need to be more flexible with the timetable of

when the referendum comes about. Finally, will this speech stock of

the rise of UKIP? I think it will dent them. -- stop the rise. I

think UKIP are now in a position where they will hopefully be able

to support the Conservative party position. Otherwise they are going

to help the Labour Party and even if the Labour Party moved to a

referendum commitment manifesto, which I think they will, I think

the commitment will be more fake or weaker than the strong commitment

the Prime Minister has made today. -- more vague. Grant Shapps, Mark

Pritchard has set out that it will be unacceptable to some of his

colleagues if the strategy for negotiation does not start

immediately. For a start, the interesting thing about this speech

is that it unite the Conservative Party. The more interesting part of

it is that I think it unites the country, who feel that things have

moved a long way since the 1970s. He is said it will not be

acceptable to wait five years. for some people it will never be an

agreement that will be acceptable. They want to get out. Some people

will have to produce but that is fine. The important thing, you

cannot deny the debate is out there. People are talking about this in

the streets. They want to have a proper choice. For the first time,

the first time in decades, they know that this question will be put

to them and they will have a proper choice. It is great that we can

have the debate. David Cameron has not made it clear. What is the

basis on which she will support voting yes or no in five years'

time? There is plenty of time for the debate. But you have to build

bridges. We know we will be on this. You want to sign up to everything

that comes your way. You give away a lot of powers. That is ridiculous.

He says it will dent the increases that you have made, Paul. He is

confident that it will dent your rise? It will do the opposite. He

is taking the debate on to our turf but is not going far enough towards

the views of the British party -- British public. We will go on and

win the European elections next year. He has made sure that Europe

will be the centre point of the general election in 2015. We're

happy about that. The French Foreign Minister, let's imagine

Europe is a football club but you join but once you're in, you cannot

say, "Let's play rugby". But actually, that is exactly how rugby

started! Can you smell something whiffy? Perhaps a bouquet of rotten

eggs, a soupcon? But there are something strained wafting across

the Channel. There is something from Europe that we cannot opt out

of. According to today's papers, Le Stink has been attributed to a

harmless but smelly leak from a factory in northern France. Is

there nothing these Europeans will not stoop to? It is getting up the

collective noses of the great British public, but at least on the

south-east coast anywhere. At a time like this we would like to

reassure you as a public service broadcaster we will endeavour to be

fragrant at all times and aromatic, or at least three from olfactory

unpleasantness. -- 3. I think the scriptwriters were loaded

dictionary this morning! On the contrary, you can have this sweet

smelling objet d'art arriving in your home, perfumed with flavourful

Romans from Darjeeling, Ceylon or, in your case, your local POW shop.

It is not to be sniffed at. Will you need to do is listen to us.

-- pound shop. Let's see if you can # Welcome to the cheap seats,

welcome to the cheap seats, welcome # Love, Love, Love, Love all your

You want to be citizens of the European Union? No! The Danes don't

either. In the name of the present and in the name of the future, we

And to be in with a chance of winning a Daily Politics mug, send

your answer to a special e-mail address: You can see the terms and

conditions on our website: Coming up to midday.

Let's have a look at Big Ben. There it is. Prime Minister's Questions

just coming up shortly. It is chiming already. We are running

late. Nick Robinson is with us. I'm told that the Prime Minister was

cheered by backbenches -- backbenchers when he walked into

the Commons. I expect he will be cheered when he stands up again.

They think, the Conservatives, but they have got Labour on the run.

Labour's hope is that the string of Tories that you have seen going

through the studio today, is a return to the days of John Major

were the Tories talk to each other about Europe. And the great British

public say, "Excuse me, what about us?" I think this will be noisy and

aggressive, because you are seeing today one of the defining questions

of the next general election and the next five years in British

politics. Who wins this argument between Cameron and Miliband will

determine, quite possibly, who the next Prime Minister is. He has no

choice but to go on Europe. He has to, but he will not tell us that he

will back a referendum. Let's go Thank you, thank you Mr Speaker. Mr

Speaker... Before answering the honourable

gentleman's question, I am sure the whole House will wish to join me in

paying tribute to Kingsman Robert Shaw, 1st Battalion the Duke of

Lancaster's Regiment. He died in The Queen Elizabeth Hospital in

Birmingham last Wednesday as a result of wounds he sustained in

Afghanistan. He gave his life for the safety of the British people

and his brave contribution must never be forgotten. Our condolences

are with his loved ones. Mr Speaker, this morning I had meet meetings

with ministerial colleagues and I shall have further much meetings

today. I am sure the whole House and the

whole country would want to associate themselves with the the

comments associated kingsman Robert Shaw. Why is there such a gap

between what the Prime Minister says and what the Prime Minister

does? I think the honourable gentleman

asks an important question and I do not deny for one second that we

have had to take difficult decisions about defence spending in

our country. At �33 billion a year, we have the fourth largest defence

budget anywhere in the world and I think it is very important that we

make sure that we have the right scale and shape of armed forces and

they have the right capability. That's why we are investing in

drones and investing more in key intelligence capabilities and

making sure we have the aircraft to make sure we have highly mobile

armed forces. I am proud of what our armed forces do and because we

are balancing their budget, they will be better equipped for the

future. Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. 68

years ago this Sunday the Nazi camp was liberated as we mark Holocaust

Memorial Day will the Prime Minister commit to ensuring young

people always have the opportunity to learn about what took place

during the darkest period in our history and will he commend the

work of the Holocaust Education Trust.

In praising the Holocaust Education Trust. A brilliant charity and

organisation that makes sure young children get the opportunity to go

and see the places where the terrible events of the Holocaust

took place. I had the privilege this week of meeting with the

Holocaust survivor whose story was truly her owic and truly

heartbreaking, but who in her 90s is making this case so future

generations will learn. We should learn about happened in Rwanda, in

Bosnia and Cambodia and elsewhere, there is too much prejudice and

persecution in our world. THE SPEAKER: Ed Miliband.

Mr Speaker... Mr Speaker, can I join the Prime Minister in paying

tribute to kingsman David Robert Shaw of the Duke of Lancaster's

Regiment. Mr Speaker, can the Prime Minister guarantee if he gets nis

in/out referendum -- his in/out referendum he will be campaigning

to stay in? This argument, this entire argument is about what is in

the natural interests of Britain. We want a European Union that is

more open, more flexible, more competitive. Not just good for

Britain, but good for Europe too. I don't think that was quite a

complete answer to my question, Mr Speaker. Let's see if we can press

him a bit further about how he is going to vote. Is he saying that if

he doesn't achieve his negotiating strategy he will recommend, the

part-time chancellor can just hang on a minute, is he saying if he

doesn't achieve his negotiating strategy, he will recommend Britain

leaves the European Union? Well, first of all, he is accepting

the premise that the Conservatives will win the next election. And

interestingly, and interestingly, not raising the fact that the

unemployment figures are down once again today. Employment is up by

90,000 this quarter. And the rate of job growth last year was the

fastest since 199, but I answered - - 199, but I answered his question

clearly, I want to see a strong Britain in a reformed Europe. We

want to reset the relationship. We will hold that referendum. We will

recommend that resettlement to the British people. But the question

now is for him - has he got a a clue what he would do?

Mr Speaker he had - well, the clue is in the title, Prime Minister's

Questions, he is supposed to be answering the questions! Now, he

had six months to think about this. It is not too much to ask. The

right honourable member for Rushcliffe he would say that he

would vote yes in a referendum. The Children's Secretary, who is hiding

away down there, he has briefed that he wants us to leave the

European Union and I am just asking the Prime Minister a straight

question - in the referendum can he guarantee that he will vote yes in

an in/out referendum? Yes, I support Britain's membership of a

reformed European Union. You don't only - only the Leader of the

Opposition would go into negotiations expecting to fail. We

go into negotiations knowing what is best for Britain, but let me put

it to him again. We now have a very clear approach. A renegotiation and

then a referendum. What is his answer? Let me tell him. He is

meant to lead the Opposition and you can't fight something with

nothing. Mr Speaker, I say first of all, the

reason the people behind him are cheering is not because they want

to vote yes in a in/out referendum, it is because they want to vote no.

Now, look, he still hasn't answered the question. He still hasn't

answered the question. Let's put it another way and give him another

chance. We know from his speech this morning that he wants to go

off and negotiate for fairness and flexibility and motherhood and

apple pie in Europe, can he name one thing, just one thing, that if

he doesn't get, he will recommend leaving the European Union?

I don't want Britain to leave the European Union. I want Britain to

reform the European Union. We have set out the whole areas where we

want... THE SPEAKER: Members are shouting

their heads off at the Prime Minister. They must desist. Let's

hear the answers. The Prime Minister.

We have been very clear about what we want to see change. The whole

series of areas social legislation, employment legislation,

environmental legislation where Europe has gone too far and we need

to properly safeguard the single market. We want to make sure that

ever closer union done apply to the United Kingdom. These are the

things that we are fighting for, but let me put it to him again. We

want a renegotiation and a referendum. What does he want? Or

doesn't he know? So Mr Speak Mr Speaker, four hours

since the big speech, he can't answer the most basic question of

all! Whether He is for yes or whether he

is for no? And why can't he answer is it Mr Speaker? Why can't he say

he will vote yes in a referendum? Because he is frightened of the

people behind him and the only thing that's changed is a few few

months ago, when he said he was against an in/out referendum is not

the situation in Europe, but the situation in the Tory Party. Why

doesn't he admit it? He has been driven to it, not by the national

interests, but dragged to it by his party.

The most basic question of all is do you want a referendum? I do.

Does he? Our position is no, we don't want

an in/out referendum. My position is precisely the same

as his position when we voted together, yeah, when we voted

together, when we voted together in October 2011 against an in/out

referendum. My position has not changed, it is his position that

has changed Mr Speaker. And here is the truth. Six months

of planning a speech on a referendum, he can't even tell us

whether it is a yes or no? THE SPEAKER: I said a moment ago

that members shouldn't shout their heads off at the Prime Minister,

neither should members shout their heads off at the Leader of the

Opposition and the questions must and they will be heard. Mr Ed

Miliband. Mr Speaker, he is going to put Britain through years of

uncertainty and take a gamble with our economy. He is running scared

of UKIP. He has given in to his party and he can't deliver for

Britain. I have politely to say to the right honourable gentleman, his

whole argument about there being uncertainty is undermined by the

fact that he cannot answer whether he wants a referendum or not. Can I

give him a little bit of advice? He needs to go away, get a policy,

come back and tell us what it is. Meantime, our approach is what the

British people want, it is right for business, it is right for our

economy and we will fight for it in the years ahead.

Mr Speaker, around the world world 170 million people, children under

the age of five are stunted so malnourished that it affected their

physical and possibly their cognitive development. The world

has enough food for everyone. As leading NGOs like Save The Children

launch a major campaign against malnutrition, will the Prime

Minister tell us what action the UK will be taking during its

presidency of the G8? My honourable friend is right to raise this issue

particularly as we chair the G8 and because some of the leading non-

Governmental organisations launched this campaign today. Above all,

what Britain will be doing is meeting the commitment we made. A

commitment that we have made that we have kept whereas many other

countries have broken their promises and we will be using that

money to make sure that we focus on the issues of malnutrition and

stunting because it is not acceptable that there is so many

millions of families in the world that go hungry every day and every

night. Mr Speaker the British automotive

industry a world-class success story. 82% of the cars we produce,

we export. Key is inward investment and key to inward investment is

continuing membership of the European Union. Has the Prime

Minister heard the growing voices of concern being expressed from

within the industry over the prolonged ung uncertainty his

speech this morning will cre kate? Does he -- create? Does he begin to

recognise the damage he might do to our economy and to a sector

employing millions of British workers? It is very welcome for the

first time since the 1970s, Britain is a net exporter of cars. That is

something to celebrate, but I don't agree with him about what he says

about business. This morning, you see, the Institute of Directors,

the Director-General of the CBIi, the the Federation of Small

Businesses, all coming out and saying this is the right approach.

Let's get a good deal for Britain. Let's reform Europe and make it

more open and competitive and let's put the choice to the British

people in a referendum. I welcome the Prime Minister's

answer and support for ending hunger. Does he recognise the

importance of the route causes of hunger? The land grabs, the use of

land for biofuels and the need to make sure that investment in these

countries is suitably transparent? Will he use the G8 to to seek

action on these causes? honourable friend is right to raise

this and I think because Britain is meeting its promises in terms of

the money for aid, we are best placed to make the arguments about

what I call the golden thread that are all the things that help move

move countries from poverty to wealth. Making sure there is a

proper rule of law, accountable, a free press, property rights and we

will be making the argument in the G8. We need greater transparency

about land ownership, and greater transparency about companies and

greater transparency about tax. Can the Prime Minister confirm his

is the first Government for 30 years, not to offer hard-pressed

consumers a Government funded energy efficiency scheme following

the closure of Warm Front last Because scheme is many times the

size of that scheme. Warm front helped 80,000 families a year. Our

scheme could help to hundred and 30,000 families here so it is

potentially a better scheme. -- 230,000 families a year. What

assessment as the Prime Minister made of unemployment in my

constituency, and in particular what assessment has made of that

there being more or women in work than ever before? The point de

honourable gentleman makes is absolutely right. There are more

people employed in the private sector than ever before, and more

women employed in our country than ever before. When you look at the

unemployment figures that have come out today, what is remarkable is

that employment is up in almost every region and unemployment is

down in almost every region. There is a lot more to do but clearly

over 500,000 new jobs in the private sector last year, the

fastest job creation rate since 1989, I think this shows that we

are on the right track. Does the Prime Minister believe it is fair

the press and City Council, one of the areas of highest deprivation

and poverty in the country should receive a 12% cut in government

funding when his own West Oxfordshire district council

receives only a 1% cut? Will the Prime Minister look at this again

and give Preston a fairer deal? And what I would say to the honourable

gentleman is that of course local government across the board is

facing a difficult funding settlement. I do not hide from that

but the figures are as follows. The area Formula Grand per head in his

constituency is �501, but in my constituency it is �320. I

completely accept that needs are greater in different parts of the

country and that is why figures are different, but I think the figures

speak for themselves. May I congratulate my right

honourable friend on a landmark speech. Demonstrating serious

leadership of our country and leadership on the important issue

of Europe. Can I invite my Right Honourable Friend to agree with me

on this issue, that it is not simply the United Kingdom which is

seeking to renegotiate the treaties, there is a serious imperative on

those members of the Eurozone who have introduced this disastrous

single currency policy into Europe which has caused economic chaos.

They are the ones in need of Treacy re- negotiation, not just us.

thank my right honourable friend for what he says. The point he

makes is correct. There is a big change taking place in Europe

because of the reforms necessary to deal with the single currency. That

is why treaty change and change in Europe is coming. There is also

already a big debate in Britain about our role in Europe and I

think that politicians have a choice. You either walked towards

that and try to shake that choice and get a good deal for Britain and

make changes that will benefit all of Europe or you stick your head in

the sand as the party opposite is doing and hope the whole thing will

go away. Why is it the Prime Minister thinks that Scotland's

referendum process is too long, but he thinks his five year process is

fine. --? The it is a very easy answer which is that the Scottish

nationalists, in my view, misguidedly, want to leave the

United Kingdom as it is. I will be arguing right across the House that

Scotland should stay in the United Kingdom. I want to see a change

Europe. Then we asked the people. - - changed Europe. It is a busy

morning, and I'm sure the Prime Minister will have seen today's

report from the Department of communities and local government

highlighting the huge savings that could be made from turning around

the country's most troubled families, such as the �224 million

saved by councils in Greater Manchester, acquitting to 32,000

per family. They asked the Prime Minister what he is doing to ensure

these lessons are made use of across the country? I do not

understand why people are trying to shout down what should be a cross-

party initiative to try and deal with the most troubled families in

our country. There is one council that actually spent up to 20% of

its budget on just 3% of its families. This is a problem

affecting all local authorities across the country and I commend

the approach that the Communities Secretary is taking to bring

together local councils and work out how we can help these families

solve their problems and reduce a major impact on taxpayers as well.

The Government's welfare bill will plunge 200,000 extra children into

poverty. Children in places like Liverpool are already suffering.

Yet the Government wants to make the poor go away by redefining

poverty. Does the Prime Minister really think he is going to get

away with this? What I would say it is that actually the introduction

of universal credit will reduce the number of children living in

relative income poverty by around 250,000. Those are the figures. On

the issue of welfare, we face a clear choice. Given that in-work

benefits have gone up by 20% over the last five years compared with a

10% increase in wages, we believe it is right that benefits should

not continue to go up ahead of wages. I know from what Labour have

done this week, great sound of fury, voting against the Bill, saying it

is wrong but completely refusing to reverse it. That is the policy

vacuum that we face from the party opposite.

By a given a keen interest in the single market's of the Prime

Minister, will look at mortgage limits restricting legal work to a

small number of larger firms and depriving local practices of the

work that keeps them at the heart of local businesses?

We do want to see a competitive market in financial services and in

conveyancing. I pick it is a major issue in our economy to get a

mortgage market moving. There are good signs that credit conditions

are easing, but we need to make sure they are easing for people who

are trying to buy their first flat and their first home who do not

have a big deposit and a lot of help from the Bank of mum and dad.

We need to make sure we're on their side. In answer to the member for

Scunthorpe, the Prime Minister justified these very large cuts in

defence spending with 5000 troops being sacked right now on the basis

that he had to face some difficult decisions on expenditure. But those

decisions were made in 2010. The security risk facing this country

is now much worse. As he himself has abolished in many of his own --

and many of his honourable friends feared. Given those threats, is

there not an overwhelming case for looking again at the Strategic

Defence Review and ensuring that our troops have the numbers needed

to justify our defence? I think the honourable gentleman makes a

serious point. The point about the defence reviews is that they are

every five years and so there will be the opportunity to look over

again. What I would say to him about the level of risk, and that

made this point in my statement on Monday, is that the risks are

changing. We face the biggest risk from the Afghanistan area, but the

proportion of the risks we face has declined. So we are able to use

resources, as we drove down in Afghanistan, to cope with the other

risks. But the overall point is absolutely dead yes, we're going to

have a smaller regular army, although the extra reserves will

mean that overall level of our army hardly changes. But they will be

better-equipped, more capable, more mobile, more capable of dealing

with the modern threats that we face. Can I congratulate the Prime

Minister on his speech on Europe this morning? As Prime Minister has

a history of going into bat for Britain and the party opposite has

a history of going in and surrendering. Can I ask the Prime

Minister, is not a big difference between that side and this that

this side trusts the people and that side wants to deny them a say?

I think my friend back makes a very important point. Frankly, the

British public have seen a treaty after treaty introduced to this

house, passing powers from Westminster to Brussels, and they

see a big change taking place because of the Eurozone. That is

why I think it is right to resettle Our relationship with Europe and

then trust the people. Recent revelations show that serious abuse

of powers involving blacklisting continues with the involvement of

the police and security services. Will the Prime Minister order an

immediate investigation into the scandal that has ruined and

continues to run the lives of many hard-working men, women and their

families? -- ruin the lives. I know the opposition will be raising this

issue today in the debate and blacklisting is a completely and --

a completely unacceptable practice. I think of the previous Government

was right to make it unlawful and we have seen no evidence that the

regulations are not doing their job. The company responsible was shut

down in 2009, but let me say that a welcome the frankness that Labour

are using on -- on opposition day debate to investigate something

that went wrong while there were in office. My honourable friend

insists on five excellent principles, including democracy

based on national parliaments and Sue project's ever-closer union.

Other member states want to go ahead with more integration and are

demanding it. Last year, on the fiscal compact, they ignored his

veto and went ahead, irrespective of the rules of the European Union.

Will my right honourable friend tell us what will happen if by next

spring they insist on going ahead with their own intended the poor

souls -- intended proposals and what will he do in response? Can I

thank my honourable friend for what he says? I think the Eurozone

countries need to make changes to the European Union. They are

changing the union to fix the currency. That is what Jose Manuel

Barroso's report is about. I think that this, frankly, gives us the

opportunity and the right to argue that for those countries that are

not in the Eurozone and, frankly, I believe are never going to join the

Eurozone, but there are changes that we would like, not just for

ourselves but for a more open, competitive and flexible Europe.

There is going to be change in Europe. The Eurozone countries need

to make changes but we should not back off from pushing forward our

agenda. Is the Prime Minister aware that there can be nothing more

gruesome than to see him getting out of austerity riddled Britain to

wine and dine at Davos with several hundred at millionaires who helped

to create the crash? Does it confirm the theory that if you want

to identify the posh boys, look at the company you keep?! A seem to

remember that last year I ran into the leader of the opposition but I

will leave that to one side. To be fair, I think when he sees the

speech I will be making, which will be arguing that we need greater

transparency over tax, greater responsibility over tax avoidance

and tax evasion issues, greater transparency about companies and

land issues, he may even find there are some of the things that I'm

going to say that he might agree with.

Will be Prime Minister cut through the relevant arguments coming from

the other side of the house and give a very simple message to the

British people that if we have a Conservative government after the

next election, they will have their say in a referendum on Europe. If

we do not have a Conservative government, we will not have a

referendum. My honourable friend makes a good point. I believe it is

right to resettle a relationship with Europe, to make it more open,

more competitive, more flexible, to make us feel more or -- to make us

feel more comfortable inside that union and give the British people

the referendum they deserve. the Prime Minister confirm that 3.4

million families with someone who is disabled will be worse off as a

result of his benefit rating cap? Why is he making life more

difficult for these families? of all, Disability Living Allowance

is not included in the cap and it is not related to people's income,

it is actually related to people's needs. If you look as a whole at

what we're doing with the disability living allowance,

overall the amount of money we are spending on disability is going to

go up and knock down. My right honourable friend's admiration for

the economic and political wisdom of Lord Heseltine is well known. In

the light of his speech this morning, will he consider inviting

Lord Heseltine to conduct an inquiry into the consequences for

the United Kingdom if we lose the EU -- if we leave the European

Union? I always listen closely to what Michael Heseltine says and I

am a huge fan of his plans for an industrial strategy. On the issue

of Europe, we have not always agreed. He was a leading proponent

of Britain joining the single currency and I have always been

opposed to that. Of -- on the issue of the referendum, I remind my

honourable friend that an in/out referendum was very much part of

his manifesto in the last election. In the interests of collision

harmony, I think we will leave that to one side.

A Swansea constituent of mine with a chronic medical condition tells

made but he has just �20 a week to spend on food and clothing after

paying his utility bills. After April, after the welfare cuts, he

will have just �2 a day. If the Prime Minister believes that we are

all in it together, will be agreed to review the impact on the very

poorest of the welfare cuts, so that the sacrifice of my

constituents are in line with us on? I will look closely at what the

honourable gentleman says. Let me just makes the point that if you

compare 2013 with 2010 in terms of the level of benefits, it is worth

making the point that an unemployed person on jobseeker's allowance is

getting �325 more this year than in 2010. A couple on jobseeker's

allowance, �500 more. And out of work mother, �420 more. What are

the opposition trying to week after week is paint a picture that we

have unfairly cut welfare. It is simply not true. Order. Mr Richard

Fuller. Health inequality in the country is persistent and damaging

and recently the Department of Health announced a 5.5% increase in

their allocation to local authorities for public health

responsibilities and a 10% increase for Bedford. Does the Prime

Minister agree that these funds will go a long way to help tap --

help tackle long term health inequalities? I think my friend

back makes an important point. For many years, public health funds

were raided to deal with problems in the NHS, because we increase the

budget. We have run France -- we have ring-fenced some of this, so

that we can tackle some of these problems. The house has heard that

the Prime Minister is looking forward to meeting people from

national and international banks. When will you visit a Foodbank?

me praise what food banks do in this country. I will point out that

the use of the banks has increased 10 times under the last Labour

government. He will the Prime Minister join me in paying tribute

to the athletes who took part in the British transplant Games?

Linked to that, well he encourage people to register for organ

donation which will help save lives? I pay tribute to all of

those who took part. He is right to Let me make the point that the

reason we have to make the cuts is because of the mess left by her

government. When it comes to helping the disabled and the

vulnerable, this government... Crispin Blunt. By Pitt the Younger

said that Europe was not to be saved by any single man.

He went on to predict that England it would save Europe by her example.

Will my right honourable friend be aware that I believe he is in

danger of contradicting what impaired because his example today

and his exertions over the next four years stand the best possible

chance of rescuing the European Union for Europe and Britain.

thank my friend back for what he says. He makes an important point,

which is at the -- that the agenda is not simply saying that this is

what Britain wants and if we do not get it, we will leave, it is an

agenda that is good for the European Union. We face a

competitiveness challenge from the countries in the south and east. We

have to accept that Europe is not working properly. It is adding to

the costs of business and regulation. We need to change that,

not just for our sake but for the So Prime Minister's Questions comes

to an end and Europe dominated the exchanges. Ed Miliband showing once

again that he always watches the Daily Politics before he goes into

the chamber. He took the same line that I was taking with Grant Shapps

as to what would happen if we don't get a deal. Will Mr, Mr Cameron say

we should leave the European Union? The Leader of the Opposition had

about as much success with the Prime Minister as I had with the

chairman of the Conservative Party. Mr Cameron snapped back that what

was Labour's real position on the referendum. They didn't know if

they were for or against one. However, Mr Miliband replied there

that he said no, we don't want an in/out referendum. He said, "We

haven't changed our mind." So can I ask you Caroline Flint again, the

question I began with before PMQs, if you don't want an in/out

referendum, vote Labour? We think our interests are better served

inside the European Union so we don't support an in/out referendum.

Do we think there should be reform in the European Union? Yes, we do,

but we don't support an in/out referendum. There are too many ifs

about what Europe will look like next year and the year after, but

what Cameron caused by his speech today is a huge amount of

uncertainty that cannot be in our interests at a time when we need

economic recovery. So we will go into the 015 election, with the --

2015 election with the Conservatives promising an in/out

referendum and Labour not? reason why we don't believe in an

in/out referendum because we don't know what Europe will look like

next year or the year after that. The priority has to be about

getting jobs and growth across the European Union and in Britain and

this is a distraction. Have you just fallen into a trap

that the Tories created for you? You seem less certain before PMQs

than after. You have had your marching orders. I said last week

on Question Time that we did not support an in/out referendum and

I'm saying it today and I have said the reasons why because we we we do

not believe it is in the national interests and the problem we have

got is Cameron is following his party interests rather than a

bigger picture issue which is Britain.

Perish the thought that a pliical leader would -- political leader

would follow his party interest. It will never catch on! Thank you for

clarifying that. Let's go to what our viewers made of PMQs. Yes, some

interesting e-mails. One viewer said David Cameron looks like a

fool announcing a a proposed referendum. Steve in Exeter, the

Tory Party ignoring the rest of us., "It was Pathetic last time under

John Major and it is just as pathetic now." Chris says, "We

don't want a referendum words uttered by Ed Miliband and words

which will return to haunt him in the next general election

campaign." Ian whitely said, "Ian did better than expected. However

saying we don't want an referendum is an own goal and guaranteed that

the Tories will give him a pasting other it.". The politics of this

are interesting for the Prime Minister because there is a number

of reasons I think he has gone down this road. One is he hopes to ditch

UKIP. Secondly, he hopes it destabilises Labour and it is

popular with his own side. If you look at what happened before PMQs

when the Prime Minister entered the chamber.

CHEERING I have never known I was so popular

Mr Speaker! Well, you are not!

We will see how long that lasts. The cheers for the Prime Minister

from his own side. The Lib Dems were quiet about it. Where do we go

from here? LAUGHTER

We keep talking about it for a long time. I will tell you where. The

the Conservatives say they have got something they can campaign about

and they think that they have got Labour in a trap by saying that

they are against a referendum and to my surprise not leaving wriggle

room. That Ed Miliband decided not to back a referendum is not a

surprise. He said to James Landale on Sunday morning on the Breakfast

sofa, he said it leading up to this. What surprised me was that he

didn't leave himself any wriggle room at all that just before 2015

he could say, "Well, since the Germans are saying we have a treaty

change, I now accept." he doesn't appear to have left himself that

space. The Tories will celebrate. Orchd, Orchd -- on the other hand,

the what are you promising to renegotiate? What are your

benchmarks for success, Prime Minister? Because we don't really

trust you on this, his own party don't trust him on this issue, he

would like this written down in our manifesto so you can't change your

mind after the election. The question that I asked the Prime

Minister at the news conference, that Ed Miliband asked at the news

conference, you asked the party chairman, which is - what if you

don't get the deal that you say you want? The Prime Minister did give

an answer to be fair. It was a curious and by tsar nature of P --

bizarre nature where Ed Miliband said he-given an -- he hadn't given

an idea and David Cameron said Ed Miliband hadn't begin an answer

when he had. If David Cameron goes in and effectively says, "Look, I

am going to vote yes come what may." Euro-sceptics will say you

have got no negotiating hand. What will happen in the capitals of

Europe, they will say, "You have lost your nerve. We know you will

vote yes. Reread the opinion polls are in favour and they are moving

in that direction, we will give you something." Harold Wilson got

something in 1975, but it won't be enough to satisfy those people who

are cross with Europe. Harold Wilson had the press cheer

leading for him to stay in last time including the Tory press. This

won happen this time. While watching PMQsI had little elves go

into into Downing Street and they have they have e-mailed to say

there are indications from Downing Street to say if Europe does not

take your bid for renegotiation seriously, the Prime Minister may

have to say, we leave. What's revealing about that point,

Andrew is the Prime Minister was asked that question directly by me

and before me by Andy Bell of Channel 5, he did not say that. You

asked the chairman of the Conservative Party and he didn't

reply. He was asked three times on the floor of House of Commons, he

didn't say it. But the moles can say what they like. The elves have

done good work. I have spent the last two weeks

trying to get a definitive answer from Labour on whether they would

have an in/out referendum. We got it from Mr Miliband and we had it

from Caroline Flint. This is the way you will end up going, isn't

it? My little elves caught a straw in the wind.

I will check the elves health. are out!

We need more information on your elves!

I want to challenge one thing, you are trying to get going or people

are trying to get going the idea that political leaders only make

speeches in the interests of their political parties. If that were

true and this this wasn't about the future of Britain and Britain's

relationship with Europe, how would you explain the Conservative Party

against its own political interests, campaigning to keep Scotland in the

United Kingdom? The truth is, we don't always do things which are in

the party's interests. We believe that that keeping Scotland in the

United Kingdom is in the United Kingdom's interests and we believe

that keeping Britain in a reformed Europe is in the United Kingdom's

interests and it is about what the people of this country want and

giving people a choice. It makes the point that you don't always,

that political parties... What would success look like to David

Cameron? The issue that will dominate discussion from now until

2015. I know... We are going to move on. We are not going to leave

Europe altogether, however, but Nick Robinson is sadly going to

leave us. Not forever. Find out who the elves are.

They have to do something when they are not making Christmas gifts.

Do you fin the news depressing you further? Not on this programme!

George Osborne might like it if journalists focus more on job

creation than job losses. The designer Wayne Hemmingway

visited the BBC's new newsroom at Broadcasting House to tell us why

journalists should do more to This week according to some

research, it is supposed to be the most miserable week of the year,

peak with blue Monday. So perhaps it is time to reflect at why the

main News Channels seem to help us concentrate on bad news stories and

a seedier side of life. According to the BBC, three of the top ten

most followed stories of 2012 were about flooding.

At number seven, were the floods in September. As the heavy rain

continued to fall, the inevitable happened. At number three, were the

floods in July. At number two, were the floods in

November. Of the other seven, two involved

the murder of children, but another was the sinking of a cruise ship

with multiple fatalities. And all the time has been the misery of

Syria without any real developments for months and little hope. There

can be no denying that these are are stories that need telling, but

what bothers me is on the whole, stories that could move mankind

forward and impact on our lives don't get the exposure they deserve.

Here is a couple of stories you might have missed.

In Japan, scientists managed to create eggs from mice stem cells,

raising hope of a cure for human infer tilt. The US journal Science

said it was one of the most important breakthroughs.

A a bicycle has been developed from cardboard.

If you search the internet for good news stories, there are various

websites that that address this, but they don't do it justicement

perhaps we need fewer crime correspondents and fewer war

reporters and that way we might encourage people to go out and

achieve more and put a smile on at on the faces of the people at its

bus stop. Wayne Hemmingway joins us now. You complain about flood

stories and you talked about Syria, but if seems to be -- but it seems

to be what the public wants? Do the public want to see a reporter stood

in their wellies with an umbrella up saying it is snowing. We know it

is snowing! They do like it, you see. It is like saying that

everybody likes, that tabloids sell more than broadsheets. If that's

fed to people all the time, that's what they want. Surely we have got

to look at things that make us happy sometimes rather than think,

"I am glad I am inside in the warmth. Or I am glad I am not in

that country." It it all seems to be crass and to me it seems to be

getting worse. Right. One would say in the news

business that those are our and finally stories. Some of the

stories that lift the news and you are saying you would like more of

that? And finally seems like something that Trevor McDonald

would have done in the 70s or 80s. How often do you see Will Gompertz

is a good good reporter. And it feels like you might as well be

saying, "Here we have a light hearted story from Will about the

arts." The creative industries are the second biggest driver of the UK

industry. It is worth the design industry alone is worth �35 billion

and when you make the creative industries, music, art, design, TV

and media and it is �37 billion.. Caroline Flint do you think it is

too negative? There has been a sea change in terms of some technology

stories and some creative stories coming in more forcefully in the

Sometimes, there is an imbalance. I think of the Olympics, and the

human stories about volunteering. It is not the people are saying

they want to be cushioned in a suite world where everything is

right but a think people want to have some hope about what we can do

it in our communities when we come together. There was a great story

the other week about a breakthrough in terms of preventing breast

cancer. Again, I think people want to get a balance between the things

that happen. It is not about protecting politicians, there are

stories out there in communities which says something about how

people can find solutions. And it is about job creations. I saw that

breast cancer story on the BBC. Stories about job creation, today...

Lemmy make his point. There has been a big job creation story today.

By and we have reported it. public will like to know that it

was on the run -- running order for today's programme at one point but

it dropped off. The positive news gets drowned out. It is because the

Prime Minister made the most significant speech of the collision.

He drowned out his own good news. There is a dangerous thing

underneath this. If we do not talk about great scientific discoveries,

young people are not encouraged to become scientists. If we talk about

art and design, the second-biggest private of the economy, as a story

for the end of the programme, we dismiss it. The renewable energy

stories are always negative. It is all was against wind farms.

going to give you an opportunity, Caroline Flint and Grant Shapps, to

say something nice about each other. Say something nice about the

Conservative Party. Conservative Party, it is good to

have democratic politics in the UK but I think -- and I think we

should think ourselves lucky that we can resolve things at the ballot

box and not through other means. Say something nice about the Labour

Party. I agree with Caroline Flint. Actually, on a small political -- I

have just done a small spot or Channel 4 are saying that all

politicians across a spectrum work hard for their constituents. That

applies to politicians for all parties and we are fortunate to

live in a democracy where we basically work together on more --

on most staff. You're only here but the clashes. Great that we got that

on today. By that is enough of all that stuff.

It will never catch on. Returning to Europe, we have not discussed

that for a four minutes or so. David Cameron did a big speech on

Europe this morning and in a moment we will get business reactions, but

first, here is the German Foreign Minister firing a warning shot.

With such decisive issues, as the future of our common currency, we

do not need less, but more integration. We share the vision of

a better Europe. We need a new commitment to the principle of

solidarity. Not all but everything must be decided in Brussels by

Brussels. We differentiate but cherry-picking is not an option.

And that was the German Foreign Minister making a statement on the

day when it was announced that Britain is now Germany's biggest

global trade partner. We have just overtaken France. The Trade and

between the countries has soared to 153 billion euros. -- trade and

business between the countries. There we go, Anglo-German business

is stronger than ever and overtaking the French. Daniel

Hodson is a former Chief Executive for the City institution, Liffe.

And Roland Rudd is from Business for New Europe. The Prime Minister

is promising to try and get some deep-seated reforms on Europe, some

of which will benefit all of Europe and some specifically Britain. Then

he will put that results to the British people and he hopes to stay

in on this basis. What is wrong with that? Well, I like a lot of it.

I like the fact that he wants to put competitiveness at the heart of

the European strategy and that, rather than full integration, is

what is important. I think you'll find that the French and Germans

are not that keen on the new treaty. I like his talk about a single

market council. We used to have an internal market council and it

emerged into a competitive ness Council. All his vision is good. My

concern is we are placed into limbo land by the referendum pledge, the

in/out pledge that could take place in five years' time. Most people

and things three years away, so five years is a long time and it

creates a huge amount of uncertainty. It is unsettling for

business. That is the bit I would have preferred not to have heard.

But rather than the first half, which I think is very encouraging.

It is unsettling for business? is, but there are opportunities to

accelerate the process. First of all, from the point of view of the

People's pledge, which I represent, this is an encouraging move. We do

not think it goes far enough. We think it is interesting to hear Ed

Miliband's pronouncement in the House. Certainly, we will be

working to try to get greater certainty on the Labour position.

Were you want you that we would like for Labour to be in favour of

the referendum. But the Labour leader said explicitly that he is

not going to do that. That is true, but the point is that we have 20

MPs off all shades -- of all shades signed up for pledge. And we

believe that there are many more who will sign the pledge. There are

indications this morning that there will be considerable pressure on

the Labour side. Do you want an in/out referendum now? No, but we

want to make sure that the campaign is going to be long and drawn out,

but that it is a campaign which starts now. Based on what? In terms

of David Cameron and the negotiations, people have a right

to know the programme of change that he will go forward on. And

therefore, what does success look like, to prevent an in/out

referendum or enable the Prime Minister to come clean about how he

will vote. That is not there at the moment. Going back to Roland Rudd,

decent again -- you said we were last on the programme that you did

not think the French and Germans want to have any more integration.

Francois Hollande and Angela Merkel agreed last night to unveil a new

programme of fiscal and monetary integration in May of this year in

time for the June council. It is true that they want to see the

progress they have made on stabilising the euro continue. And

we will see other measures throughout the year that underpin

that stability. You must not forget, one year ago at this conference

people were saying, when will the euro break-up? Now it is conceived

wisdom that it will be fine. It has passed a worse. -- past its worst.

Angela Merkel is calling Mr Holland Francois. That is so close they are,

first name terms. I think it is a much better relationship. Over the

weekend, the French Foreign Secretary said that we're going to

see more measures to ensure that the relationship continues. They do

not necessarily want another treaty change for some we will see about

that. Roland Rudd, thank you for joining us. Very briefly, would you

be happy to see repatriation of powers? Do you think we should stay

in? What I say is that I want an in/out referendum. We know that it

but answer my question. The answer is as Caroline says. We need to

know where the line in the sand is. It is part of a process taking

place now. Well, we begun a programme without getting answers

so why should we end it differently?

And Astrid was the clue to our Guess The Year contest, but did you

remember when it happened? -- Maastricht was the clue.

Yes, it was 1992. Press the buzzer.

Clive Brown of Cheshire. Well done. OK, that is it. Thank you to all

our guests and special thanks to a our two guests who have been here

throughout. The One o'clock News will be starting on BBC One but we

will be on at 12:15pm tomorrow, slightly later because of the