Browse content similar to 24/01/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Good afternoon. Welcome to The Daily Politics. Following his | :00:40. | :00:46. | |
speech on Europe yesterday and the prom of a referendum, the PM woke | :00:46. | :00:52. | |
up so of of the best headlines he's ever enjoyed. | :00:52. | :00:59. | |
What happens next? The IMF tells Boy George he should consider | :00:59. | :01:05. | |
scaling back his austerity measures to promote growth. Is it just a | :01:05. | :01:10. | |
dog's life being an MP? Are they paid too little or too much? Don't | :01:10. | :01:17. | |
shout all at once, we will discuss it later. We will ask if an army of | :01:17. | :01:21. | |
snowmen could be the answer to Britain's flood defences. All that | :01:21. | :01:26. | |
in the next hour. With us for the duration former police minister, | :01:26. | :01:31. | |
Nick Herbert. Welcome. According to reports I have read, he left | :01:31. | :01:36. | |
Government not so long ago to spend more time on politics. Is that | :01:36. | :01:43. | |
true? No. What are you doing here? I don't know. You asked me! Is that | :01:43. | :01:48. | |
it!? First today, let's talk about gay marriage because the Government | :01:48. | :01:51. | |
is introducing a Bill on the subject later today. We won't know | :01:51. | :01:56. | |
what is in it until tomorrow when it will be published. It will be | :01:56. | :01:58. | |
called Extension of Marriage to Same-Sex Couples Bill. It is | :01:58. | :02:02. | |
expected to get a bit of a stormy ride through politics. Nick Herbert, | :02:02. | :02:07. | |
why is it so important to legislate for same-sex marriage? I think | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
attitudes have changed in society towards gay people. I think the | :02:10. | :02:15. | |
introduction of civil partnerships with an incredibly important step | :02:15. | :02:20. | |
forward which gave equality to a limited extent. It gave gay couples | :02:20. | :02:26. | |
the same rights, but not a marriage. Civil partnership is different. | :02:26. | :02:30. | |
Those who are saying they don't want to move to gay marriage | :02:30. | :02:33. | |
understand that too. They are saying it is different. A majority | :02:33. | :02:39. | |
of the public now are in favour of same-sex marriage. If we are to | :02:39. | :02:42. | |
fully complete that journey of equality, so that gay people really | :02:42. | :02:47. | |
are treated in the same way as others, that this is a very | :02:47. | :02:53. | |
important, final step. Let's talk about unity within the yeerp. The | :02:53. | :03:01. | |
bill is published tomorrow -- -- the bill is published tomorrow. | :03:01. | :03:06. | |
These are issues of conscience. There'll be a free vote. I think it | :03:06. | :03:12. | |
is clear that most Members of Parliament will vote for it. | :03:12. | :03:16. | |
Conservative MPs will probably be divided roughly down the middle. We | :03:17. | :03:23. | |
will see. I hope that a majority of Conservative MPs will vote for this | :03:23. | :03:28. | |
legislation. I hope they will be reassured by the protections given | :03:28. | :03:36. | |
to churches. That's very important. I set up an organisation called | :03:36. | :03:41. | |
Freedom to Marry. People should be allowed to get married, if churches | :03:41. | :03:49. | |
want to do that and organisations like the Quakers agree. Those | :03:49. | :03:53. | |
churches who don't want to do it should have the freedom to say it | :03:53. | :03:58. | |
is something they don't agree with and should not be forced to perform | :03:58. | :04:02. | |
same-sex marriages. It will be save in terms of challenges from the | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
European Court of Human Rights. I think that will reassure a lot of | :04:06. | :04:14. | |
my colleagues, who are concerned to ensure that religious rights are | :04:14. | :04:20. | |
protected too. Phillip Hammond has expressed concern to a constituent | :04:20. | :04:25. | |
that actually the safeguards you describe will not be robust enough | :04:25. | :04:30. | |
to protect the Church. I don't know when he wrote that letter. The | :04:30. | :04:37. | |
Attorney General has been clear to say he considers there'll not be a | :04:37. | :04:44. | |
challenge. Lord PanicQC said it was beyond argument, the protections | :04:44. | :04:48. | |
are rock-solid. The European Convention of Human Rights protects | :04:48. | :04:53. | |
religious liberty, specifically. Therefore, we are sure that there | :04:53. | :04:58. | |
won't be a challenge. Look at Spain. It's had same-sex marriage in Spain, | :04:58. | :05:04. | |
a Catholic country, for seven years. There's not been a challenge there. | :05:04. | :05:08. | |
Why wouldn't you support the idea of same-sex marriage in the Church | :05:08. | :05:12. | |
of England? There were many people who thought that was going to be | :05:12. | :05:15. | |
enshrined in this principal, that you would be able to get married in | :05:15. | :05:19. | |
the Church of England. If they collectively decided that's what | :05:19. | :05:23. | |
they wanted to do. If individual churches want to do it, they can't. | :05:23. | :05:27. | |
They are part of an organisation which takes a collective view. The | :05:27. | :05:30. | |
Church is entitled to have its own view on these matters. I hope that | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
one day hay will change their mind, but that should be a decision for | :05:33. | :05:39. | |
them and, in my view, not for legislators to make. That is | :05:39. | :05:43. | |
fundamental to the principal of religious freedom. I think the | :05:43. | :05:50. | |
Church is entitled to exercise its conscience. It is dividing the | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
Cabinet. It is a free vote, you are right. Other Conservative MPs have | :05:54. | :05:59. | |
claimed their postbags are full of letters from angry constituencies - | :05:59. | :06:04. | |
- constituents. Is it a priority? myself believe it should be a | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
priority if you say something is not a priority because of situation | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
with the economy and so on, the danger is you will never take a | :06:10. | :06:13. | |
step like this, there'll always be a reason not to do this. It is not | :06:13. | :06:17. | |
something which need to take up an enormous amount of time. I go back | :06:17. | :06:23. | |
to the point I made before - public opinion is in favour of this by a | :06:23. | :06:29. | |
substantial majority and it is strengthening. The Guardian poll | :06:29. | :06:33. | |
shows three-fifths of the public are in favour. That is a | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
considerable increase. It is moving across all western countries as | :06:36. | :06:39. | |
well. This is something that I think a majority of the public now | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
believe that we should do. It's also something we can reassure | :06:44. | :06:47. | |
those who want to exercise their conscience that their own church | :06:47. | :06:53. | |
can be protected. Thank you. Now, it seems David Cameron just can't | :06:53. | :06:58. | |
make enough speeches. Fresh from his Europe speech in the City of | :06:58. | :07:02. | |
London yesterday, the Prime Minister's hot footed it to the | :07:02. | :07:05. | |
World Economic Forum in dave vas, Switzerland, to share his thoughts | :07:05. | :07:10. | |
on the world economy. Some of the international people present may | :07:10. | :07:14. | |
not have liked this part of his message. I believe in low taxes. | :07:14. | :07:20. | |
That is why my Government is cutting the top rate of income tax. | :07:20. | :07:28. | |
We've cut corporation tax. I am a low-tax Conservative. I am not a | :07:28. | :07:33. | |
companies should pay no tax Conservative. Individuals and | :07:33. | :07:35. | |
businesses must pay their fair share. Businesses who think they | :07:35. | :07:40. | |
can dodge that fair share or keep on selling to the UK and setting up | :07:40. | :07:45. | |
ever more complex tax arrangements to squeeze their tax bills down, | :07:45. | :07:49. | |
they need to wake up and smell the coffee, because the public who buy | :07:49. | :07:55. | |
from them have had enough. Wake up and smell the coffee! Get it, | :07:55. | :08:00. | |
Starbucks! Four people on this stage didn't like it, they loved it. | :08:00. | :08:09. | |
There's been a walkout. There was no mention of reigning in austerity | :08:09. | :08:15. | |
measures. Something the IMF told the Chancellor to consider. In his | :08:15. | :08:20. | |
March bupblt, he said that today. With us is Nick Herbert and Rachel | :08:20. | :08:30. | |
:08:30. | :08:33. | ||
Reeve. The pound is sliding. It is the weakest kurstsy currency on the | :08:33. | :08:39. | |
exchanges. We are looking to neg sieve growth in the fourth quarter | :08:39. | :08:44. | |
of this year and the squeeze on living standards continues at its | :08:44. | :08:49. | |
most severe since the 1920s. If that is success, what would a | :08:49. | :08:54. | |
failed one look like? A couple of things you missed out. What was | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
wrong? I am not challenging the things you were saying, but overall, | :08:58. | :09:03. | |
let's look at the fact that the deficit has been reduced by a | :09:03. | :09:06. | |
quarter. But is rising again. year, the deficit is being reduced | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
by a quarter. There is a plan, which the Government is sticking to, | :09:09. | :09:14. | |
to reduce the deficit over a period of years. That's the first thing. | :09:14. | :09:20. | |
Let me interrupt you on that. First of all, it is true that in the last | :09:20. | :09:23. | |
financial year you managed to cut the deficit by a quarter since you | :09:23. | :09:30. | |
came into power, but the deficit is now rising again. It is now �7 | :09:30. | :09:34. | |
billion higher in this financial year, than it was in the same | :09:34. | :09:38. | |
period the last financial year. The original plan by Mr Osborne was to | :09:38. | :09:46. | |
cut the deficit by 75%, by 2015. The latest target is 40%. So, | :09:46. | :09:51. | |
frankly, the plan is a mess! are right that the timetable for | :09:51. | :09:55. | |
the reduction in the deficit has lengthened. That of course is | :09:55. | :09:58. | |
related to the fact that growth and the recovery of growth has been | :09:59. | :10:05. | |
slower for the reasons we know about, including sluggish growth in | :10:05. | :10:13. | |
the eurozone. The revenues don't come in as fast. So plan A is in | :10:13. | :10:19. | |
shreds. It's not in shreds. The timetable is longer. But the plan A | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
involved a timetable. There was a timetable to reassure the markets | :10:24. | :10:29. | |
and you've not done that. Since the timetable was a key part of plan A, | :10:29. | :10:37. | |
plan A is in shreds. The timetable is longer. To say it is in shreds | :10:37. | :10:42. | |
is-egging it. The second bit of economic news you missed out - you | :10:42. | :10:47. | |
only read out neg sieve news - was significant reductions in | :10:47. | :10:50. | |
ememployment, which I think are important. Important because job | :10:50. | :10:55. | |
creation in this economy has actually been very strong, despite | :10:55. | :11:00. | |
that downturn. So it is one million new jobs T job-creation figures we | :11:00. | :11:04. | |
saw this week showed that actually a majority of those were not part- | :11:04. | :11:11. | |
time jobs as is sometimes levelled, the abgsaig to us,. They were full- | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
time jobs. We have more people in work than ever before. It's not | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
sensible just to isolate the bits of economic news. I think the | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
important thing for confidence in the economy, is that we have a | :11:22. | :11:27. | |
credible plan to reduce the deficit, to get on top of public spending, | :11:27. | :11:31. | |
to maintain low interest rates and we'll see what happens in relation | :11:31. | :11:36. | |
to the next growth figures. In essence, the Government, not | :11:36. | :11:44. | |
through its own will, is in a sense doing what you want it to. Gepbss | :11:44. | :11:48. | |
its own will it is taking -- against its own will it is taking | :11:48. | :11:55. | |
longer to cut the deficit. Government are borrowing because | :11:55. | :11:59. | |
taxes are not coming in as they were supposed to and because the | :11:59. | :12:02. | |
welfare bill is going up because we have more out of work than the | :12:02. | :12:09. | |
Government an miss taited and more people in part-time -- anticipated | :12:09. | :12:12. | |
and more people in part-time work. They are not borrowing more to | :12:12. | :12:22. | |
:12:22. | :12:23. | ||
invest. They are not borrowing more to protect police or nurses. The | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
reason -- Nick says the reason is because of what is happening in the | :12:26. | :12:31. | |
eurozone. Of course it is having an impact on the UK, but the German | :12:31. | :12:40. | |
economy has grown by 2.5%. The US economy has grown by 4%. Our... If | :12:40. | :12:46. | |
you look at the IMF... It came to a halt. In the last two years, these | :12:46. | :12:49. | |
economies are growing. Our economy has flat-lined because of the | :12:49. | :12:53. | |
decisions that George Osborne has made. First of all he blamed the | :12:53. | :12:58. | |
snow, then the Royal Wedding, then the eurozone. At some point he has | :12:58. | :13:03. | |
to take responsibility for his own actions. I don't think it is true | :13:03. | :13:10. | |
that the deficit reduction has been the cause of slower growth. I think | :13:10. | :13:16. | |
that most commentators would agree with that. Look at the IMF. They | :13:16. | :13:22. | |
are saying the... The chief economist at the IMF, he's an | :13:22. | :13:24. | |
important commentator. It would point to the collapse of confidence | :13:25. | :13:30. | |
in the eurozone, which is our principal export market. Actually, | :13:30. | :13:37. | |
the growth.... Please let me finish. It is not as high as we would like | :13:37. | :13:42. | |
are not far off those of the United States. They are higher than most | :13:42. | :13:46. | |
of the eurozone economies. Actually, I don't think it is right to say | :13:46. | :13:51. | |
this is a plan that has failed. We know what your position is - your | :13:51. | :13:55. | |
position has always been that actually we should spend more and | :13:55. | :13:58. | |
borrow more. You are not therefore on strong grounds to attack this | :13:58. | :14:04. | |
Government. You are the ones borrowing more - the cost of a | :14:04. | :14:07. | |
failed plan. We employ more people at this time than in the country's | :14:07. | :14:11. | |
history. That must cheer you up. Part of the reason is there are | :14:11. | :14:21. | |
:14:21. | :14:22. | ||
more people in the country. If you look at the numbers.... | :14:22. | :14:27. | |
Unemployment in Spain - lower in Britain. The only major economy | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
where unemployment is lower than ours is Germany. The headline | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
figures are good news, but there is a mixed bag there. Long-term | :14:35. | :14:41. | |
unemployment is at the highest level since 1997. 500,000 people | :14:41. | :14:45. | |
have been out of work for more than a year. | :14:45. | :14:49. | |
It is a mixed bag. That is what I am saying. They are always a mixed | :14:49. | :14:57. | |
bag. Every Year of the Blair-Brown Governments I could show you the | :14:57. | :15:02. | |
unemployment figures. We have a challenge of people out of work | :15:02. | :15:08. | |
more r -- for more one or two years. We know from the recessions of the | :15:08. | :15:12. | |
1980s and 1990s that short-term unemployment turns into long-term | :15:12. | :15:15. | |
unemployment. If someone has been out of work for two years, they are | :15:15. | :15:20. | |
offered a job, that they have to take that opportunity. They have to | :15:20. | :15:26. | |
take the job. What happens if they don't? They forfeit their benefits. | :15:26. | :15:29. | |
Six months at the minimum wage - that is fair to taxpayers and to | :15:29. | :15:39. | |
:15:39. | :15:44. | ||
What would happen to them? They would not get their benefits of | :15:44. | :15:51. | |
stock with baby out on the street? They have got a choice. -- would | :15:51. | :15:57. | |
they be out on the street? I know constituents of mine who are | :15:57. | :16:01. | |
filling in job application after job application and not getting | :16:01. | :16:06. | |
anywhere. They are desperate for jobs. This is a tough but fair plan | :16:06. | :16:09. | |
that we have funded but the government on not doing it anything | :16:09. | :16:15. | |
about it. When the IMF says you need to look again at your | :16:15. | :16:21. | |
austerity plan, the IMF for most of my lifetime has been a shrine to | :16:21. | :16:27. | |
austerity, has forced it on every country, including this one in 1976. | :16:27. | :16:32. | |
When the IMF is telling you that, you are in trouble. That was | :16:32. | :16:38. | |
looking ahead to the Budget and the Chancellor will announce what he is | :16:38. | :16:42. | |
going to do and we will also by then have had the next round of | :16:42. | :16:48. | |
growth forecasts, but what we must have regard to his confidence. | :16:48. | :16:53. | |
Confidence in the economy that has resulted in very low interest rates, | :16:53. | :16:59. | |
which have been incredibly important... �300 billion of | :16:59. | :17:04. | |
quantitative easing has had quite an impact on low-interest rates! | :17:04. | :17:11. | |
That lost... Confident is undermined by an economy that went | :17:11. | :17:16. | |
into a double-dip recession and has flat lined for two years. We have | :17:16. | :17:22. | |
to move on! We will leave it. Ritual, we have to let you go but | :17:22. | :17:31. | |
we are sad about that. Nice to see you. -- Rachel. David Cameron set | :17:31. | :17:34. | |
out his European policy yesterday in his long-awaited and much- | :17:34. | :17:36. | |
delayed speech. He promised a straightforward in-out referendum | :17:36. | :17:39. | |
after the next general election once he has had a chance to | :17:39. | :17:43. | |
negotiate a new settlement with the EU. That of course is assuming he | :17:43. | :17:47. | |
wins the next election. He said that the European Union is failing | :17:47. | :17:52. | |
its citizens. It needs to reform to become more flexible and more | :17:52. | :17:55. | |
democratically accountable. He also wants to see Britain's relationship | :17:55. | :17:58. | |
with Europe change. David Cameron says he'll set up a | :17:58. | :18:03. | |
band to take back powers from Europe. For years the EU has been | :18:03. | :18:06. | |
working towards ever closer union, but everything changes and now | :18:06. | :18:09. | |
Conservatives want to repatriate powers back to the UK. We'll have | :18:09. | :18:12. | |
to wait for the 2015 manifesto to get the full details of exactly | :18:12. | :18:16. | |
what powers they want back. But the Prime Minister mentioned the | :18:16. | :18:20. | |
working time directive in his speech yesterday. Conservative MPs | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
also pray to restore powers over crime, the environment, agriculture | :18:23. | :18:27. | |
and fishing. If they win the next election they'll ask the British | :18:27. | :18:31. | |
people how deep is your love for Europe in a referendum on the new | :18:31. | :18:36. | |
settlement. If there's a yes vote, and David Cameron says this is what | :18:36. | :18:40. | |
he wants, Britain will stay in the EU but with powers back for good. | :18:41. | :18:44. | |
But if voters decide that love ain't here anymore, we'll be out of | :18:44. | :18:48. | |
the EU once and for all. Well, as we saw earlier, David Cameron has | :18:48. | :18:52. | |
been speaking at the World Economic Forum in Davos. And of course he | :18:52. | :18:58. | |
was asked about the issue of Europe. What I am proposing is not just | :18:58. | :19:03. | |
change for Britain. I am proposing change for Europe. We have to be | :19:03. | :19:10. | |
frank about our performance. We are falling behind in the world. We are | :19:10. | :19:13. | |
earth over regulating businesses and leaving citizens behind. And | :19:13. | :19:17. | |
that is why I said Europe too often has been a cause of cost to | :19:17. | :19:22. | |
business and complaint to citizens. We need to deal with that for | :19:22. | :19:27. | |
everybody's sake in the European Union. RM clear it is obvious that | :19:27. | :19:33. | |
change is coming in Europe. -- I am very clear. There will be further | :19:33. | :19:37. | |
changes as the single currency inevitably means changes in Europe. | :19:37. | :19:42. | |
As that happens, Britain has got a choice. We can stand back and hope | :19:42. | :19:48. | |
it will go away and the argument will settle down, or, my approach, | :19:49. | :19:54. | |
say yes, the European Union needs to change to suit the euro but it | :19:54. | :19:59. | |
also needs to change in order to suit all of us as well. Make the | :19:59. | :20:03. | |
arguments about a flexible and open and competitive Europe, take it to | :20:03. | :20:13. | |
:20:13. | :20:14. | ||
the British people and seek their concern at in a referendum. -- seek | :20:14. | :20:17. | |
their opinion in a referendum. With us now is Jack Straw, a former | :20:18. | :20:20. | |
Foreign Secretary with experience of negotiating in Europe. And in | :20:20. | :20:23. | |
Bielefeld in Germany is Elmar Brock, an MEP and Chair of the European | :20:23. | :20:25. | |
Parliament Foreign Affairs Committee. Up I think we should | :20:25. | :20:34. | |
look at a number of areas. A remind us. Common Agricultural Policy, | :20:34. | :20:41. | |
Fisheries, employment and social legislation and then I think there | :20:41. | :20:46. | |
are issues relating to the EU budget and putting in place | :20:46. | :20:51. | |
measures to ensure there cannot be these constant increases in the | :20:51. | :20:56. | |
cost of the administration. negotiation, you do not usually get | :20:56. | :21:00. | |
everything you want. Do you have read lines, or what they call in | :21:00. | :21:06. | |
Europe? An irreducible minimum that you would have to get before you | :21:06. | :21:10. | |
could say, we should stay in Europe? The Prime Minister did not | :21:10. | :21:17. | |
approach a bag way. He set up the principles. -- the Prime Minister | :21:17. | :21:22. | |
did not approach it that way. know it. I am asking what do you | :21:22. | :21:27. | |
think. We are looking at the areas of policy which could be more | :21:27. | :21:32. | |
sensibly organised in our country. One of the more fundamental things | :21:32. | :21:35. | |
the Prime Minister spoke about is really important, including | :21:35. | :21:40. | |
challenging the idea that Britain has to subscribe to the idea of | :21:40. | :21:44. | |
ever closer union... I understand that but as you know, it is not | :21:44. | :21:49. | |
answering the question. I am not in a position to say, here is my | :21:50. | :21:54. | |
shopping list. As far as I'm concerned, if we don't get that the | :21:54. | :21:59. | |
negotiation is not a success. I think we should look at the areas I | :21:59. | :22:04. | |
have set out and also look very closely at this driving principle | :22:04. | :22:09. | |
of the EU, which is problematic for people in this country, that there | :22:09. | :22:15. | |
has to be the constant ratchet of further integration... What is | :22:15. | :22:19. | |
wrong with Britain wanting to repatriate some powers are back to | :22:19. | :22:26. | |
Westminster? It looks like Britain wants to have special rights. The | :22:26. | :22:30. | |
Prime Minister wants to use the internal market, someone who wants | :22:30. | :22:34. | |
to use it has to fulfil all parts of the internal market and cannot | :22:34. | :22:39. | |
make cherry-picking and if you talk of agricultural policy, a wish you | :22:39. | :22:43. | |
good luck to them negotiate that with the French, and if you took a | :22:43. | :22:53. | |
:22:53. | :22:53. | ||
bad European budget, it is so low, it is less than 1% of GDP and for | :22:53. | :22:58. | |
the next seven years they will not be an increase in that so that will | :22:58. | :23:04. | |
be another problem. We need common roots in the internal market. It is | :23:04. | :23:08. | |
unequal playing field. What we can discuss is whether the rules should | :23:08. | :23:13. | |
be high or low well. It is a question of normal legislation in | :23:13. | :23:20. | |
the council and European parliament. You do not want to sit on the side | :23:20. | :23:28. | |
bags without ever -- that banks without any influence. Ever-closer | :23:28. | :23:35. | |
union it was the idea of John Major. It is from the treaty of Rome in | :23:35. | :23:44. | |
1986. No. That is not true. Britain is now your biggest trading partner. | :23:44. | :23:49. | |
No, with the ever-closer union, you are not right, it was not the | :23:49. | :23:56. | |
treaty of Rome. I was there when it was signed! The last time I looked. | :23:56. | :23:59. | |
Angela Merkel seems in a much more generous mood then you to help | :23:59. | :24:06. | |
David Cameron? Angela Merkel has said there is no cherry-picking | :24:06. | :24:13. | |
possible. What we can do is be to negotiate in the parliament and | :24:13. | :24:22. | |
European Council better legislation. But it is not a question of | :24:22. | :24:28. | |
repatriating powers but dealing with powers better. Germany has the | :24:28. | :24:32. | |
highest social benefits and rights and it is very competitive and you | :24:32. | :24:37. | |
talk about the working-time directive to 48 hours, this was | :24:37. | :24:47. | |
introduced to Britain in 1908 in a from Christian Church also what is | :24:47. | :24:55. | |
wrong with that? -- by Winston Churchill. Winston Churchill he is | :24:55. | :25:02. | |
not right about everything. He was not right about India. I wish the | :25:02. | :25:06. | |
Prime Minister luck. This is the wrong way to go about improvements | :25:06. | :25:12. | |
in our position in Europe. One of the things that man just said that | :25:12. | :25:16. | |
was passed by it was that David Cameron should get back his | :25:16. | :25:20. | |
Conservative Party into the European People's Party, which is a | :25:20. | :25:25. | |
centre right coalition in which the Conservative Party have for years | :25:25. | :25:30. | |
and he's been part, and they would then have influence. The oddity | :25:30. | :25:33. | |
about the leadership of the election for the Conservative Party | :25:33. | :25:37. | |
five years ago was that David Cameron was actually in the centre | :25:37. | :25:41. | |
of the Tory party to do trade with the Euro-sceptics and said if | :25:41. | :25:47. | |
people like Bill Cash gave him their votes, he would withdraw the | :25:47. | :25:50. | |
Conservative Party from the EPP and joined fringe groups with some real | :25:50. | :25:55. | |
oddballs, whereas David Davies, the natural right-wing candidate, said | :25:55. | :26:00. | |
I will not do something that daft. So you think changing that makes it | :26:00. | :26:05. | |
more difficult for him? Certainly. But what I also suspect is David | :26:06. | :26:10. | |
Cameron is in the same position as Harold Wilson 40 years ago, where | :26:10. | :26:14. | |
Wilson decided he would go for a referendum about whether we stayed | :26:14. | :26:19. | |
within Europe. He then dressed up a series of demands which were | :26:19. | :26:23. | |
extremely easy to obtain because they were frankly cosmetic. He got | :26:23. | :26:28. | |
them, declared victory and secured endorsement from our position in | :26:28. | :26:32. | |
Europe. What has come up from the discussion you had with Nick | :26:32. | :26:36. | |
Herbert a moment ago is once the euphoria of David Cameron's speech | :26:36. | :26:41. | |
dies down, they will be a battle royal inside the Conservative Party | :26:41. | :26:45. | |
about what exactly the demands are in that you cannot be inside the | :26:45. | :26:50. | |
European Union if you do not accept some principle of the Common | :26:50. | :26:54. | |
Agricultural Policy. Most of our farmers now accept that. There are | :26:54. | :26:58. | |
some things over the working time directive, particularly as it | :26:58. | :27:02. | |
affects junior doctors, are daft and we have been trying to get | :27:02. | :27:06. | |
changes would Spain and Germany, but the idea that you can turn the | :27:06. | :27:11. | |
whole thing upside down and say working 60 hours a week is OK is | :27:11. | :27:19. | |
unattainable so detail will be critical. If your allies with the | :27:19. | :27:23. | |
mainstream Conservative Party, if you allies, you would have a better | :27:23. | :27:29. | |
chance of getting your way then? That is a side argument. Jack, I | :27:29. | :27:33. | |
think you miss the two big points. First of all, the British people | :27:33. | :27:40. | |
have not been given a say about our relationship with the EU since 1975. | :27:40. | :27:44. | |
People want their say. They were promised it before over Lisbon and | :27:45. | :27:49. | |
it was taken away from them. There is a strong feeling about that in | :27:49. | :27:53. | |
the country and that has to be addressed. The important thing | :27:53. | :27:57. | |
about now is that the British people will be involved in this | :27:57. | :28:02. | |
situation and they will have the final say. Let me go back to | :28:02. | :28:07. | |
Germany. The members of the eurozone, led by France and Germany, | :28:07. | :28:12. | |
are going to come up with a number of proposals for a much more | :28:12. | :28:18. | |
economic and monetary integration and with that, or possibly further | :28:18. | :28:23. | |
political integration. Britain will not be part of that by choice. As | :28:23. | :28:28. | |
you go to an ever-closer union in the eurozone, isn't it legitimate | :28:28. | :28:34. | |
for Britain to say, we need to negotiate our opposition to a more | :28:34. | :28:36. | |
semi-detached place while that eurozone is renegotiating its | :28:36. | :28:42. | |
position to a much closer union? Look, the question to be negotiated | :28:42. | :28:47. | |
is to have more competitiveness by structural changes, more | :28:47. | :28:53. | |
possibilities to stop a bad Budget procedure, and site fiscal deficit. | :28:53. | :28:59. | |
That is also the British position. This is not a question when it is | :28:59. | :29:04. | |
debated between the 17th. The fiscal compact, which Britain | :29:04. | :29:09. | |
refused to join us, was signed by 25 countries. 25 countries and | :29:09. | :29:16. | |
Denmark is included, despite its opt in, and we have to see that | :29:16. | :29:19. | |
this is a question for more or less all the European Union who wants to | :29:19. | :29:23. | |
do with that and go forward with that and it is the question that | :29:23. | :29:31. | |
Britain cannot then come and say, we want an internal market... | :29:31. | :29:35. | |
would be grateful if you are dressed my question. It is a | :29:35. | :29:40. | |
project we did five countries. the proposals that Francois | :29:40. | :29:45. | |
Hollande and Angela Merkel will make in May this year for the June | :29:45. | :29:48. | |
council in 2013 are fundamentally to do with that eurozone and the | :29:48. | :29:52. | |
eurozone will get closer and closer together, and Britain will not be | :29:52. | :29:56. | |
part of that. We will not be at the heart of Europe so what is wrong | :29:56. | :30:00. | |
with renegotiating a more semi- detached relationship, given we | :30:00. | :30:10. | |
:30:10. | :30:11. | ||
will not be in the core? Co you have silenced him altogether! | :30:11. | :30:21. | |
:30:21. | :30:28. | ||
I think UKIP got a hold of the This is a distraction. We're not | :30:28. | :30:34. | |
saying, never have a referendum. Certainly not. I read what Nick | :30:34. | :30:39. | |
Clegg wrote this morning, thinking, I agree with Nick. Also I agree | :30:39. | :30:45. | |
with Michael Heseltine. This is a distraction. It reminds me of | :30:45. | :30:51. | |
budgets. If it is well received on the day, they are hanging out | :30:51. | :30:55. | |
afterwards. Let's be clear, Ed Miliband at Prime Minister's | :30:55. | :31:02. | |
Questions was explicit in ruling out a referendum, an in-out | :31:02. | :31:06. | |
referendum. Douglas Alexander had to explain that is not what he | :31:06. | :31:10. | |
really meant. It is a mess. It is not. It is clear he was talking | :31:10. | :31:20. | |
about them. He mis-spoke. You could put it that way. What should | :31:20. | :31:24. | |
Labour's position be in the referendum? My position is, if | :31:24. | :31:30. | |
there were a referendum tomorrow, I would strongly say and advice my | :31:30. | :31:35. | |
constituents to vote yes. I would do that, either without a | :31:35. | :31:38. | |
renegotiation. Having started off sceptically about Europe, my own | :31:38. | :31:45. | |
belief is that after four year -- after years in the European Union, | :31:45. | :31:51. | |
it depends on our membership of the referendum. Should there be one or | :31:51. | :31:57. | |
not? It is academic at the moment. Five years, you are talking about, | :31:57. | :32:02. | |
who knows what will happen in five years. I will not say we'll never | :32:02. | :32:10. | |
have one. There's a prom there! As clear as mud! We couldn't hear you | :32:10. | :32:15. | |
- I apologise. We'll come back to you one day soon and hear what you | :32:15. | :32:24. | |
have to say. Our apology from London. He looks as if he's sitting | :32:24. | :32:32. | |
outside Glasgow University union. It is interesting to listen to | :32:32. | :32:38. | |
British arguments. We got him in the end. Don't all shout at your | :32:38. | :32:43. | |
television sets at once. How much is your MP worth? I can't hear the | :32:43. | :32:48. | |
shouting yet! A survey revealed the majority of people questioned felt | :32:48. | :32:52. | |
Members of Parliament deserved a 32% pay increase. Perhaps | :32:52. | :32:56. | |
unsurprisingly though it was a survey of MPs. Do they have a | :32:56. | :33:01. | |
point? An MP earns just over �65,000 a year. In a survey | :33:01. | :33:04. | |
conducted by the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, | :33:04. | :33:11. | |
our politicians said this ought to be increased to more than �86,000. | :33:11. | :33:17. | |
That compares to the average UK salary of �26,500. The chief | :33:17. | :33:26. | |
executive of a medium-sized company earns �99,046. MEPs recently | :33:26. | :33:36. | |
:33:36. | :33:41. | ||
We are joined by John Mann. Before we go - Scotland viewers are with | :33:41. | :33:46. | |
us as well. They have been watching First Minister's first question. | :33:46. | :33:51. | |
Why should you be worth three times the average salary? I am being paid | :33:51. | :33:58. | |
twice as much as an MP for the past 15 years. As an MP? MPs are worth a | :33:58. | :34:01. | |
reasonable salary. This is about relativetys. We have a situation, | :34:01. | :34:05. | |
where British MPs are not particularly well paid compared to | :34:05. | :34:10. | |
other MPs. They are paid a lot less than BBC political journlithss, who | :34:10. | :34:15. | |
may or may not -- journalists who may or may not want to say how much | :34:15. | :34:21. | |
you are paid, paid for by the taxpayer. One interesting thing is | :34:21. | :34:25. | |
journalists making comments about MPs' pay are on the whole much | :34:25. | :34:30. | |
better paid than MPs. Tell me what a reasonable salary is? I will not | :34:30. | :34:35. | |
give you that, because we have now decided, as a Parliament, to | :34:35. | :34:39. | |
happened this decision over to the Independent Parliamentary Standards | :34:39. | :34:43. | |
Authority. What I think is sensible is rather than us going for an | :34:43. | :34:47. | |
auction about all this, to say we had years and years of struggling | :34:47. | :34:52. | |
to set a proper pay level for MPs ourselves. It was unseemly. It led | :34:52. | :34:57. | |
to the development of the expenses system, increases by the backdoor, | :34:57. | :35:02. | |
which was unacceptable. Better to hand it over and for them to decide. | :35:02. | :35:07. | |
Meanwhile, I hope we will not get people coming out with these | :35:07. | :35:13. | |
approaches. As I say, to repeat my point, I am not making a plea for | :35:13. | :35:18. | |
myself. I enjoy a very high standard of living. My concern is | :35:18. | :35:24. | |
younger MPs. Let's see what their salary is comparable to. Is the | :35:25. | :35:30. | |
work you do less important of than than a CEO of a medium-sized | :35:30. | :35:35. | |
business. It does not compare to anything else. There must be in | :35:35. | :35:41. | |
terms of responsibility and status. We are representatives. We are | :35:41. | :35:44. | |
representatives of the community of society. That is what we're meant | :35:44. | :35:48. | |
to be. Therefore you cannot do those comparisons. Are we paid | :35:48. | :35:52. | |
enough at the moment? �65,000, with the current recession, I say that | :35:52. | :35:56. | |
we are. Do you agree with that? There is | :35:56. | :36:01. | |
not a comparison to be made with other responsible jobs like a head | :36:01. | :36:08. | |
teacher of a secondary school who could get paid between �79,000- | :36:08. | :36:16. | |
�112,000 a year. There are comparisons to be made. You do set | :36:16. | :36:22. | |
salaries which are comparable. By the way, Jo mentioned trade union | :36:22. | :36:26. | |
General Secretaries. They would be paid six-figure salaries. These | :36:26. | :36:32. | |
things are out there. My concern is this; the intake in 2010 of new MPs | :36:32. | :36:38. | |
I thought was a higher level of intellectualal lapbt on both sides | :36:38. | :36:46. | |
than anything I -- intellectual talent on both sides. My concern is | :36:46. | :36:51. | |
it does not put off people in the future. You should be concerned | :36:51. | :36:54. | |
about that, John Mann, the types you would like to see, they will | :36:54. | :36:59. | |
not necessarily be bankers and barristers. If you want to | :36:59. | :37:08. | |
encourage somebody who wants to own a mebg oak ker Sally they will not | :37:08. | :37:14. | |
come into the -- salary, they will not come into the House of Commons. | :37:14. | :37:17. | |
It is a nonsense to suggest that MPs come in for the pay and that | :37:17. | :37:22. | |
what we need to do is attract greater people. It's for the | :37:22. | :37:26. | |
electorate to decide. There's no shortage of competition. In fact, | :37:26. | :37:31. | |
the problem in Parliament is we don't have enough people from | :37:31. | :37:37. | |
enough walks of live. We don't have enough people in ordinary | :37:37. | :37:42. | |
professions. What has happened is parliamentary intake - 90% | :37:42. | :37:46. | |
graduates. A lot of people on both sides being subsidised either by | :37:46. | :37:51. | |
their spouses or by family income. I don't think that is sensible. | :37:51. | :37:56. | |
That's why I say, let's try and take the emotion out of this and | :37:56. | :37:59. | |
leave it to the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, | :37:59. | :38:04. | |
which is for the first time ever, we have said we will not set our | :38:04. | :38:08. | |
own pay. It is a really tricky issue. There's never a good time | :38:08. | :38:13. | |
for it to be discussed. I think for the health of our democracy, just | :38:13. | :38:18. | |
as - and I say again, this is an important issue - journalists who | :38:18. | :38:22. | |
monitor us are paid considerably more than MPs. That's a decision | :38:22. | :38:28. | |
which has been made by the.... all journalists. Certainly the ones | :38:28. | :38:33. | |
who monitor us. And so what? It is about the attractiveness of | :38:33. | :38:37. | |
people's careers. What is your view on this? Should MPs be paid more? | :38:37. | :38:42. | |
No. I just think at the moment... What about attracting people from | :38:42. | :38:47. | |
all walks of life. If you don't pay a reasonable salary all the smart | :38:47. | :38:51. | |
people will go into other industries. That might be a wider | :38:51. | :38:55. | |
issue about politics and the nature of the job. I think it is a bigger | :38:55. | :38:59. | |
question about the sort of things that an MP now does. I think just | :38:59. | :39:05. | |
at the moment when we have a downturn, where we have had pay | :39:05. | :39:09. | |
freezes in the public sector, pay freezes in large parts of the | :39:09. | :39:16. | |
public sector for a time.... This is historical, isn't it? Yes. To be | :39:16. | :39:18. | |
talking about a substantial pay increase now could not be a worse | :39:18. | :39:24. | |
time to be doing so. It is still in... Would you like to see it? | :39:24. | :39:32. | |
Maybe this is something which could be looked at at a different moment. | :39:32. | :39:39. | |
We're not properly recovered from the expenses scandal there a is a | :39:39. | :39:43. | |
matter of confidence. To raise this issue now is extremely damaging. We | :39:43. | :39:51. | |
have to look at the wider economy. They are not just having pay | :39:51. | :39:56. | |
freezes, they are having falls in their incomes. It is not saying | :39:56. | :40:00. | |
let's take a decision tomorrow. They are looking to not before the | :40:01. | :40:04. | |
next Parliament. At some stage, this issue does need to be termed. | :40:05. | :40:11. | |
You, as much as anybody else in the House of Commons, and John, as well | :40:11. | :40:14. | |
other MPs agreed that the decision should be taken out of the hands of | :40:14. | :40:18. | |
MPs and passed over to the authorities. You are out of step | :40:18. | :40:22. | |
with most of your parliamentary colleagues? I probably am. It never | :40:22. | :40:29. | |
stopped him before! Find me the care assistant... What about the | :40:29. | :40:32. | |
General Secretary of the union? There are millions of industrial | :40:32. | :40:37. | |
workers. Loads of care assistants, people like that. None of them are | :40:37. | :40:42. | |
saying to me, oh, we have become an MP if you paid us more than �65,000. | :40:42. | :40:47. | |
That is not the problem. They are paid a fair whack. Should members | :40:47. | :40:53. | |
of a union be paid a six-figure salary. If it was my union I would | :40:53. | :40:58. | |
get it reduced. Thank you. The union General Secretary is a | :40:58. | :41:03. | |
worried man! Thanks. Come back and see us again. To | :41:03. | :41:07. | |
immigration, because the chief inspector has condemned as | :41:07. | :41:11. | |
unacceptable the discovery of backlogs of more than 16,000 cases | :41:11. | :41:14. | |
at the UK Border Agency. Some of the unprocessed | :41:15. | :41:18. | |
applications from people wanting to set until Britain, because their | :41:18. | :41:22. | |
husbands and wives, that is a natural thing to do. They date back | :41:22. | :41:27. | |
to more than a decade. Here is what the chief inspector said earlier | :41:27. | :41:31. | |
and the minister for immigration, Mark Harper. In the cases that have | :41:31. | :41:37. | |
been put into archive, for reasons either because people can't be | :41:37. | :41:40. | |
traced, for example. We've looked at the checks that have been made | :41:41. | :41:45. | |
and found that assurances that they have given to Parliament about | :41:45. | :41:50. | |
regular checks being made have not actually been made. Clearly we | :41:50. | :41:54. | |
inherited an agency with a lot of problems. We've a new chief | :41:54. | :41:58. | |
executive, new management team. He is getting a grip of the agency. We | :41:58. | :42:01. | |
are also very clear we would not be able to turn it around overnight. | :42:01. | :42:04. | |
We are going through, working through these issues. I am | :42:04. | :42:09. | |
confident that by the time we get through this Parliament, the agency | :42:09. | :42:13. | |
will be in good shape. It is not an overnight fix. We are going in the | :42:13. | :42:18. | |
right direction. We are getting a grip of these things and sorting | :42:18. | :42:21. | |
them out. The Shadow Minister joins us now. | :42:21. | :42:26. | |
Let me come to you first. You wrote in your local paper two years ago | :42:26. | :42:33. | |
that the UK BA was close to clearing the backlog of almost | :42:33. | :42:36. | |
500,000 cases and that things were getting better. What do you say | :42:36. | :42:43. | |
now? It is a shambles, isn't it? is infuriating. It has been to | :42:43. | :42:47. | |
successive Governments. Last week, I took part in a debate with Johm | :42:47. | :42:53. | |
Reid about Civil Service reform and the machine -- Mr Read reetd about | :42:53. | :42:57. | |
the Civil Service reform and the machinery and to bring people in to | :42:57. | :43:02. | |
sort out the way it is run. John Reid said, not at all if you have a | :43:02. | :43:05. | |
minister like me I can sort departments out and implied | :43:05. | :43:09. | |
everything has been sorted out in the Home Office. That is not what | :43:09. | :43:14. | |
we found. There have been systemic problems with UK BA, which Theresa | :43:14. | :43:19. | |
May has been dealing with. She has made a big structural change by | :43:19. | :43:23. | |
splitting that off with Border Force. We have new management in. | :43:23. | :43:26. | |
There have been continuing problems. You heard Mark Harper. He is | :43:26. | :43:31. | |
determined to tackle it. The UK BA, it is clearly in something of a | :43:31. | :43:37. | |
mess. It is a dealing an historic backlog. | :43:37. | :43:43. | |
It is growing... Cases date from 2003. The majority comes from since | :43:43. | :43:49. | |
2010 and indeed the report makes clear that the backlog is growing | :43:49. | :43:55. | |
by 700 a month and that it's the one category of the backlog stood | :43:55. | :44:00. | |
at 14,000 last zep. If it is still grow -- last September. If it is | :44:00. | :44:05. | |
still growing it is higher than that now. By the time you left | :44:05. | :44:11. | |
office you sorted out Border Force? It didn't exist but UK BA was not a | :44:11. | :44:18. | |
perfect organisation, to put it mildly! It is what we call "a | :44:18. | :44:22. | |
British understatement." I am being very British here. You need | :44:23. | :44:27. | |
intervenalist ministers. What the British public will get fed up with | :44:27. | :44:31. | |
is endless speeches about immigration and remarkably very | :44:31. | :44:35. | |
little dealing the nitty-gritty. There are other worrying things in | :44:35. | :44:39. | |
the paper that was produced today, for instance saying there is | :44:39. | :44:44. | |
inconsistentsy between the way that staff based in the UK from UKBA | :44:44. | :44:49. | |
deal with a case, from the way they are dealt with overseas. That must | :44:49. | :44:54. | |
be wrong. Would this not be an issue, in which you should put | :44:54. | :44:58. | |
aside party differences, because neither of you have a great reortd | :44:58. | :45:03. | |
in this and you share -- record in this and you share your experiences | :45:03. | :45:09. | |
and have an agreed programme to put it right? Yes, but in the end you | :45:09. | :45:14. | |
still need intervenalist ministers. That is the case I am making, thank | :45:14. | :45:22. | |
you. My worry is that I don't think Theresa May has been sufficiently... | :45:22. | :45:32. | |
:45:32. | :45:42. | ||
You don't know Theresa! The British people want to see | :45:42. | :45:45. | |
their borders properly controlled and they have a view that both your | :45:45. | :45:49. | |
parties in government have failed to do so so should you not put your | :45:49. | :45:55. | |
differences aside and tried to sort it out on a consensual basis? | :45:55. | :45:59. | |
Sharing the experience is important because these are management issues. | :45:59. | :46:05. | |
They are not Dudu political decisions. There have been big | :46:05. | :46:09. | |
management and systemic problems in his agency -- they are not down to | :46:09. | :46:17. | |
political decisions. Accountability also needs to be addressed. Their | :46:17. | :46:25. | |
numbers have come down very substantially actually. We could | :46:25. | :46:29. | |
throw rocks but one particular one that I will throw, which is a | :46:29. | :46:36. | |
bolder, is the fact they have cut the number of staff by 6,000! It is | :46:36. | :46:42. | |
a fact! That is about allocation of resources, no. Allocation of | :46:42. | :46:48. | |
resources by your lot, yes. I had dinner with codes CNN last week. I | :46:48. | :46:51. | |
hope some of his diplomatic skills had rubbed off on May but clearly | :46:51. | :46:56. | |
not -- Kofi Annan. A work you manage to avoid how much you were | :46:56. | :47:05. | |
paid. Nobody asked. How much are you paid? Not enough! Not nearly | :47:05. | :47:09. | |
enough! Thank you, Chris Bryant, it is time | :47:09. | :47:13. | |
you left. It is an allocation of resources issue. | :47:13. | :47:17. | |
There used to be a time when many thought of it as "the copper's | :47:17. | :47:21. | |
party". Strong on law and order. Keen on getting "bobbies on the | :47:21. | :47:24. | |
beat". But now this party is the senior partner in a coalition | :47:24. | :47:27. | |
austerity government. And we have 20% cuts, massive changes to pay | :47:27. | :47:30. | |
and conditions, plus the loss of 12,000 officers. The relationship | :47:30. | :47:33. | |
between police and this party, the Conservative party, is no longer a | :47:33. | :47:37. | |
happy one. David Cameron has always been | :47:37. | :47:40. | |
supportive of the dedication and sacrifice of the police but equally | :47:40. | :47:42. | |
that they are the last great unreformed public service, and that | :47:42. | :47:47. | |
changing that was something personal. He had been right there | :47:47. | :47:52. | |
when the Tories last tried it, and were faced down by police pressure. | :47:52. | :47:55. | |
Now, the government is forging ahead with scale of reform not seen | :47:55. | :47:57. | |
before, affecting pay, conditions, roles, the private sector, police | :47:57. | :48:02. | |
and crime commissioners and cuts. All police pride themselves they | :48:02. | :48:09. | |
are managing this process but it's been tough. It is always difficult | :48:09. | :48:12. | |
when you see such a substantial reform programme because not only | :48:12. | :48:16. | |
do we have to manage that and restructure and reorganise and cut | :48:16. | :48:22. | |
20% out of the Budget all at once, without any of really clear | :48:22. | :48:27. | |
overarching plan, and we also have to deliver the service. We cannot | :48:27. | :48:30. | |
stop while we we organise. The private sector, which we are told | :48:30. | :48:35. | |
we should look at more, tell me it is A-level and scale of change | :48:35. | :48:42. | |
which many have absolutely no experience of -- it is at a level | :48:42. | :48:47. | |
of change. They are doing it to the police service and not with the | :48:47. | :48:57. | |
:48:57. | :48:59. | ||
police service. They need to engage. Policemen are suspicious of the | :48:59. | :49:02. | |
reforms themselves, suspicious of the motives behind them and | :49:02. | :49:07. | |
suspicious that at the end of this process they will not be a better | :49:07. | :49:11. | |
service as a result. And there is the feeling that the government has | :49:11. | :49:16. | |
made this a lot harder than it needed to be. Yes, it has left | :49:17. | :49:20. | |
police officers feeling particularly not listen to and | :49:20. | :49:23. | |
undervalued extent that this government does not particularly | :49:23. | :49:27. | |
like the police service. Whether that is true or not is irrelevant. | :49:27. | :49:31. | |
That is the perception as a result of the current implementation of | :49:31. | :49:34. | |
the reforms. It's not hear-say some officers are | :49:34. | :49:39. | |
angry as we all heard them say it. Home Secretary, you may not like | :49:39. | :49:43. | |
this, but we in the police service and no longer trust you, end of | :49:43. | :49:47. | |
story. And if it wasn't the Police | :49:47. | :49:49. | |
Federation conference, it was a march by off-duty police that | :49:49. | :49:53. | |
displayed a dismay we had not seen so publicly before. Inevitable, say | :49:53. | :49:58. | |
the government's opponents. government thought they had | :49:58. | :50:02. | |
developed policy but they didn't, it was it cliche, the last | :50:02. | :50:06. | |
unreformed element of the public sector. To to the ignoring the | :50:06. | :50:10. | |
reform that had been before and ignoring the fact that to do | :50:10. | :50:14. | |
policing properly, they had to reform to keep up. You cannot have | :50:14. | :50:18. | |
the technology of ten years ago used for policing today, so they | :50:18. | :50:21. | |
are fundamental cliche was wrong and it just has got worse ever | :50:21. | :50:24. | |
since. Government argue their changes will | :50:24. | :50:28. | |
finally deliver a better service better suited to the modern UK. | :50:28. | :50:31. | |
Both ACPO, the PSA and the Fed say their people will deliver because | :50:31. | :50:38. | |
"that's what they do". But... is a question around the tipping | :50:38. | :50:42. | |
point. How much more can you drive out of policing before it becomes a | :50:42. | :50:47. | |
direct impact on frontline service delivery? We are close but at the | :50:47. | :50:52. | |
moment we have maintained that service. But no question, frontline | :50:52. | :50:55. | |
officers are working under more pressure and harder than ever | :50:55. | :50:58. | |
before and that is why the salary has to match the demanding nature | :50:58. | :51:04. | |
of the job. For Sir Hugh Aldous says that the reforms are pushing | :51:04. | :51:09. | |
the police service to do tipping point -- so Hugh Orde. Perilously | :51:09. | :51:13. | |
close to affecting frontline services. What do you say? | :51:13. | :51:18. | |
course you have to ensure there are sufficient resources but we were | :51:18. | :51:21. | |
told two-and-a-half years ago but the budget reductions for the | :51:21. | :51:25. | |
police would have a catastrophic effect. You remember their | :51:25. | :51:29. | |
campaigning, the Labour Party were doing it Bob le Brocq the says it | :51:29. | :51:38. | |
is close to tipping point. -- were doing it... He says it is close to | :51:39. | :51:43. | |
tipping point. Is he wrong? Crime has fallen substantially under this | :51:43. | :51:47. | |
government and that is a credit to the police. They have actually been | :51:47. | :51:52. | |
able to deal with this reduction in resources which is essential. The | :51:52. | :51:57. | |
police cannot be exempt from the at. Is that essential to a massive | :51:57. | :52:02. | |
restructuring of pay and conditions, police and crime commissioners, | :52:02. | :52:08. | |
whilst simultaneously removing 20% of central funding from police? | :52:08. | :52:13. | |
Isn't that too much? Central funding has not been reduced by 20%. | :52:13. | :52:18. | |
Central funding has been reduced but the budget implication that is | :52:18. | :52:23. | |
not 20%... I am saying their package? It is important to say it | :52:23. | :52:29. | |
is not 20% funding reduction. Accountability is very important in | :52:29. | :52:33. | |
public services. There was a feeling that there was danger of | :52:33. | :52:36. | |
disconnection between the police and the public and greater | :52:36. | :52:42. | |
accountability is valuable and what we sought to do was to end the | :52:42. | :52:45. | |
decade of bureaucratic management of the police from the centre, | :52:45. | :52:49. | |
which resulted in a lot of bureaucracy and targets, and | :52:49. | :52:52. | |
substitute that for a local and democratic accountability, which | :52:52. | :52:57. | |
has been a success in London because the mayor's responsibility | :52:57. | :53:01. | |
for policing in London is welcome in London I think. A even though | :53:01. | :53:06. | |
the turnout for the commissioners was appalling. Yeah, I think it | :53:06. | :53:11. | |
will be a success. We have set up an independent review into pay and | :53:11. | :53:15. | |
conditions. Police officers must continue to be well remunerated but | :53:15. | :53:19. | |
there were issues about an 0 fashion system of pay and | :53:19. | :53:24. | |
allowances that had to be addressed -- old-fashioned system. He tries | :53:24. | :53:28. | |
to produce a system that will match pay according to skills rather than | :53:28. | :53:32. | |
a system where you pay simply goes up every year regardless of your | :53:32. | :53:37. | |
skills. Have you won the hearts and minds of police officers? It is | :53:37. | :53:42. | |
tough. These are tough times and these are demanding reforms and | :53:42. | :53:48. | |
they affect police officers' pay packets. As people across public | :53:48. | :53:53. | |
services have been affected. The police are not alone in that. It is | :53:53. | :53:58. | |
important we continue to say that the government continues to say how | :53:58. | :54:03. | |
important the police are, that we do value the police, they do an | :54:03. | :54:07. | |
important job... A but they have not heard that. They clearly said | :54:07. | :54:12. | |
they think the government do not like them, so whatever you have | :54:12. | :54:18. | |
said, it has not worked, has it? The perception from the police and | :54:18. | :54:22. | |
the difficulty with making those reforms has not succeeded because | :54:22. | :54:25. | |
they feel you do not like them, that you have put too much on them | :54:25. | :54:31. | |
in one go and you have not won hearts and minds? There is an | :54:31. | :54:33. | |
element within the police service and the Police Federation in | :54:33. | :54:38. | |
particular that regarded everything as not challengeable and therefore | :54:38. | :54:44. | |
any challenge was escalated into "this is an attack" and if you look | :54:44. | :54:49. | |
back over the years, successive governments faced protests from the | :54:49. | :54:52. | |
Police Federation, allegations that morale had never been so low and | :54:52. | :54:56. | |
that this was an attack on policing and what the federation has had to | :54:56. | :55:00. | |
realise is that the economic situation, the necessity to ensure | :55:00. | :55:05. | |
that public services can be today's challenges, the importance of | :55:05. | :55:08. | |
ensuring a strong relationship between the police and the public | :55:08. | :55:12. | |
meant that these changes had to be made and I strongly believe that | :55:12. | :55:17. | |
they are in interest of policing. You speak very passionately about | :55:17. | :55:21. | |
this. Surprising you walk away from this. There are other reasons for | :55:21. | :55:26. | |
that which I have spoken about before. But I will continue to | :55:26. | :55:29. | |
support the government programme of police reform. | :55:29. | :55:32. | |
With a big thaw on the cards, fear not my friends about melting snow | :55:32. | :55:36. | |
and floods. We have on hand apparently a sophisticated flood | :55:36. | :55:44. | |
defence system. And here it is. # Sleigh bells ring. Are you | :55:44. | :55:47. | |
listening? # In the lane, snow is glistening. | :55:47. | :55:48. | |
# A beautiful sight, we're happy tonight. | :55:48. | :55:52. | |
# Walking in a winter wonderland. # Gone away is the bluebird. | :55:52. | :55:56. | |
# Here to stay is a new bird. # He's singing a song, as we go | :55:56. | :56:06. | |
:56:06. | :56:06. | ||
along. # In the meadow we can build a | :56:07. | :56:09. | |
snowman. # Then pretend that he is Parson | :56:09. | :56:13. | |
Brown. # He'll say: Are you married? We'll | :56:13. | :56:18. | |
say: No, man. # But you can do the job when | :56:18. | :56:26. | |
you're in town #. According to reports in today's newspapers, | :56:26. | :56:31. | |
snowmen are the answer. Joining me now from the not very snowy slopes | :56:31. | :56:34. | |
of Westminster is Phil Rothwell, flood risk manager from the | :56:34. | :56:40. | |
Environment Agency. Can this be true? Should we be out buildings no | :56:40. | :56:47. | |
men? I feel as cold as a snowman. I do not think they are the answer | :56:47. | :56:53. | |
for stockholding snow back is a good thing. Snow holds a lot of | :56:53. | :56:58. | |
water. But when the snow melts and goes into the river systems, it | :56:58. | :57:02. | |
does cause some problems, particularly at the moment with | :57:02. | :57:07. | |
lots of saturated ground. River levels are already responding to | :57:07. | :57:16. | |
the snow melting. With heavy rain forecast, we could be imposed more | :57:16. | :57:22. | |
flooding so building snowmen is not the answer. There is a bit of | :57:22. | :57:28. | |
science behind this. If you compact snow, it is a lot slower to melt. A | :57:28. | :57:32. | |
snowman on your lawn is the last thing to go when the snow | :57:32. | :57:36. | |
disappears so yes, it does hold back the water, but you need a very, | :57:37. | :57:41. | |
very, very great many of them before it makes any difference. | :57:41. | :57:48. | |
are looking at one in the north, 17 ft tall. That is a public-spirited | :57:48. | :57:55. | |
attempt! Can be papped of the country with a 17 ft snow men? -- | :57:55. | :57:59. | |
could we have pepper? It would be a spectacular sight but it would not | :57:59. | :58:03. | |
do a great deal to reduce your flood risk. The better thing to do | :58:03. | :58:08. | |
is to look at the agency's flood website to really assess the risk. | :58:08. | :58:14. | |
So we do have some risk coming up? Yes, it is a series point. Rivers | :58:14. | :58:21. | |
are very high and grunt is saturated -- series point. The | :58:21. | :58:24. | |
ground is saturated. We are looking at river levels very carefully and | :58:24. | :58:29. | |
if you are at all worried MPs look at the environment agency's website, | :58:29. | :58:33. | |
where there is lots of useful website. | :58:33. | :58:38. | |
That's it, folks. If you can't get enough Europe chat, then join me | :58:38. | :58:41. | |
tonight on BBC One with Neil Hamilton, Laura Kuenssberg, Lowri | :58:41. | :58:43. | |
Turner, Katherine Ryan, Shirley Williams, Michael Portillo and Alan | :58:43. | :58:48. |