06/02/2013 Daily Politics


06/02/2013

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Morning, folks. This is the Daily Politics. They have been arguing

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about it all week. Last night, MPs voted to allow gay men and women to

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get married. So is that the end of the story? Or will those who

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disagree fight on in the committee stages and the House of Lords?

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What went wrong with our health service in Staffordshire? We know

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that thousands of patients received appalling standards of care.

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Hundreds died. Why? We will bring you the results of the official

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investigation. We meet the man who wants to rip up

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the rules about building houses and see an end to buy-to-let landlords.

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The decibel level is far too high. The Prime Minister should not have

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to shout. Just how noisy is the Chamber

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during PMQs? We will have the results of a special Daily Politics

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experiment to find out. All that in the next hour and a

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half. Joining us for the duration, Business Minister Michael Fallon

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and Shadow Justice Secretary Sadiq Khan.

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But first - the big vote last night. If you have been watching the Daily

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Politics this week, you will know that MPs on both sides of the House

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have deeply held beliefs about gay marriage. David Cameron has always

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said that he believes people should be able to marry their same-sex

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partners, not despite being a Tory, but because he is a Tory. Which has

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not quite convinced a major chunk of the Tory party. Last night when

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MPs had their first vote on the issue, more Tory backbenchers voted

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against than for it, and a large number abstained.

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This bill is about one thing. It is about fairness, it is about giving

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those who want to get married the opportunity to do so whilst

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protecting the rights of those who do not agree with same-sex marriage.

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The definition of marriage is based on the definition of sex. In the

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19th and did three Act, it is impossible, absolutely impossible,

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to shoehorn in same-sex marriage and to provide equality -- 1973 Act.

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We have discriminated against Catholics, women, people from

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ethnic minorities, but very gradually, not always completely

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but perceptibly, this House has passed legislation to remove such

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discrimination. Is this not another example to do so? Are the marriages

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of millions of straight people about to be threatened because a

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few thousand gay people are permitted to join? What will they

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say? Our marriage is over, Sir Elton John has just got engaged to

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David Furnish. If the government is serious about this, take it away,

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or abolish the civil partnerships Bill, abolish civil marriage, and

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create a civil union bill that applies to all people, irrespective

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of their sexuality or relationships, and that means brothers and

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brothers and sisters and sisters and brothers and sisters.

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cheeses are I know was born illegitimate, a refugee, with eight

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death warrant on his name -- cheeses that I know. That is why it

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is right for those to vote on this bill -- Jesus I know.

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Well in the end, there was a huge Parliamentary majority in favour of

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gay marriage on this, the first vote on the matter. David Cameron,

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Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg all voted in favour. But 136

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Conservatives, 22 Labour and four Lib Dem MPs did not follow their

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leaders into the division lobbies on a free vote. Michael Fallon was

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one of them. Why could David Cameron not persuade you? It was a

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free vote, it was not political. That is the point of the a free

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vote. It is up for each member and Minister to vote according to their

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own conscience. But he spoke openly and consistently in favour of gay

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marriage, wanting to encourage as many Conservative MPs to follow him.

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What was it about the issue that could not persuade you? You would

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have been pretty scornful to announce a free vote and then 95%

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of Conservative MPs went into the lobby behind him. But David Cameron

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will be disappointed. There are divisions in the party about this

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and in the country. If you are coming to redefine one of the

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central institutions in society, you probably need to do so on the

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basis of a lot more concerned than exists at the moment. But the

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majority of people in parliament voted the other way, I was wrong,

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and we have to accept that. Do you think people in your party who

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voted in favour listened to you and your colleagues concerned? Yes, we

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had a passionate e-mails from each side and if I may say so I think

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the debate yesterday should parliament at its best. Some very

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powerful speeches on both sides. I think a reasonable amount of

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respect from each side. You do? Some people clearly feel very

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strongly that we should not discriminate against gay people.

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Other people think there is something special about marriage

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that needs to be protected. But it is not over yet. This does not mean

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that a gay couple can go out next weekend and get married. No. I am

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pleased that society can recognise love and relationships. The entire

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Shadow Cabinet had a free vote and 85% voted in favour. It has to go

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to committee upstairs, then it comes to report stage and a third

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reading and then it will go to the House of Lords, so it will be a

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number of months before it is finally through parliament. What

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will happen a lot in the parliamentary road? Will you and

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your colleagues tried to amend the bill? Or your colleagues in the

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House of Lords? I certainly won't. It was a massive majority, as Sadiq

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Khan has said. We have to respect the view of the House of Commons.

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Maybe other colleagues will quibble about the details of the

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legislation. It is important that the protections for the Church are

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robust and violet. Then, don't forget, there is a second phase in

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parliament -- robust and valid. The Commons has spoke and I think those

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of us to oppose the bill need to respect the majority who were in

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favour. The do you think there will be any attempts to amend the bill

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in the House of Lords? I am sure there will be attempts to amend it,

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just like you have people bringing frivolous cases in the future that

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will not succeed. The key thing is to try to have as many mechanisms

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in the bill to respect religious freedom, article 9 in the European

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Convention. We need to make sure that there is faith groups are

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protected from their believes not being compromised. On that issue,

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you spoke of protections. As a Muslim, did you come under any

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pressure from Muslim faith groups to say, the Sadiq Khan, don't vote

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for this? I am an MP who is Muslim rather than a Muslim MP. Might

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consist it -- constituents are Catholics, Jewish people, Anglicans,

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Methodists, Hindu... I had communication from all sides. On

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all issues, not just this one. Should David Cameron have spoken in

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this debate, bearing in mind he has said such a lot about this issue?

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You are suggesting he should have been trying to bully his own

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ministers and members into following into the lobby. Would we

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not have expected to have heard from him? If you are the leader of

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the party and you have made this famous quotes of saying, I support

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gay rights because I am a Tory. He might have wanted to emphasise that

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during the debate or even listened to it? I think it is to his credit

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that he did not make this a party issue. There will be people who on

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matters of conscience would expect that from parliament. I don't think

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it would have sweet individual members and ministers for us. --

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would have swayed. People have very strong views on this. I don't think

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it would have made that much difference. Thank you.

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While we were talking we are just getting word of what is in the

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Francis report into the scandal of what happened in their mid-

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Staffordshire Hospital Trust in 2005 up to 2008. We understand the

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report calls for zero tolerance to poor standards of care. He says

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hospitals which failed to comply with this fundamental standard

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should be forced to close. He has made 290 sweeping recommendations

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for health care regulators and possibly a hospital inspectorate.

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He attacks the local health authorities and the trust board

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although he does not name any one individual and organisation for

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what he describes as the disaster at Stafford Hospital. If you

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remember, between 401,200 people died and at this hospital's trust

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care -- between 400 people and 1200 people died. The patients were

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forced to drink water from vases, lying in their own excrement,

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relatives forced to come in to look after them themselves. A long-

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running scandal in the NHS. We are just getting the report now. We

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will bring more as we get it and of course a statement by the Prime

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Minister to the Commons at 12:30pm. We will bring you that statement

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and reaction to it. Jo has the background.

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The yes. The public inquiry has investigated

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how managers and those charged with overseeing the NHS failed to do

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anything about the failings at Mid Staffordshire NHS Trust. In 2009

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the Healthcare Commission, the predecessor of the current Care

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Quality Commission, reported that at least 400 more patients died at

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Stafford Hospital between 2005 and 2009 than would have been expected,

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as a result of what it called That led to the government setting

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up an independent inquiry, chaired by Robert Francis QC, which looked

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at what went wrong more closely. So in 2010 he reported shocking

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details of how patients had been mistreated. There was a wholly

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unacceptable standard of hygiene, and deficient food. He also found

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there had been a chronic shortage of staff and that nurses had often

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been dismissive and uncaring. Robert Francis's second inquiry,

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which is what we are getting today, looks at the failures of management,

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oversight and regulation and will recommend changes to the structure

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of how NHS hospitals are monitored. The government has said it already

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wants a new duty of candour. Hospitals which tried to cover up

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bad care could be fined or even shut down. Francis is also likely

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to recommend establishing a new post of chief inspector of

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hospitals for England. And many here at Westminster will be looking

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at what he says closely to see if there is any criticism that can be

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laid at the door of the previous Labour government.

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The report is being published around now. For the latest, we are

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joined by Phil Mackie from outside We already know from the previous

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reports just how shocking big hair was that went on here between 2005

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and 2009 -- just how shocking the care was. I spoke to a woman whose

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daughter was complaining for 18 months of stomach pains. She picked

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up so many different infections, C difficile and MRSA, it eventually

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killed her. That lady said she did not want heads to roll. She wanted

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reform to the NHS. That is what it is hoped the Francis report will

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bring for the many campaigners who have been hoping for various things,

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including allowing whistle-blow was more freedom to speak out, stopping

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gagging clauses, paying more attention to patients, and

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admitting more openly when things go wrong. But fundamentally to

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start at basic levels of care. Things that went on at Stafford

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Hospital were going on elsewhere in the country and probably still are.

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That is acknowledged in this report. This is why the report is seen as

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being so significant. We are just getting more from this report on

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the Mid Staffordshire Hospital NHS Trust. Fundamental rights denied,

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appalling and unnecessary suffering, lack of care, compassion, humanity

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and leadership. The words of Francis QC, who has

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led this latest report. His second report into what happened.

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We are joined by Mike Farrar, the chief executive of the NHS

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Confederation, which represents hospitals and other organisations

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This is probably the worst record of care in the NHS since it was

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founded in the 1940s. Why have there been no criminal charges, no

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sackings, nobody struck off by the GMC? I would echo your view that

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this is one of the worst days in the NHS's history. As somebody who

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came into the service to do good things, I'm ashamed of what

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happened in Staffordshire. The actions against individuals of

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other regulatory bodies. Robert Francis is going to look at how

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this regulatory bodies are working. Why have there been between 400 to

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1200 people died, were killed in effect, because of inadequate care?

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At the very most, at the very least, institutional manslaughter. Why

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have there been no criminal charges? It's really a question of

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what the regulatory regime allows us to do. I'm very interested in

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not just what punitive action and accountability needs to be taken

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for what happened, I'm really thinking of the way in which the

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patient that your correspondent mentioned said what we need to do

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was make sure this doesn't happen again. I know that's what you want

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to talk about, but let's look at what has happened. Why have only

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three of the doctors involved, why have only three been called now

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before the General Medical Council on fitness to practise? Why has

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nobody been struck off? I don't represent the General Medical

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Council's views. I think they have to think very seriously about this.

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If they want to reassure the public that they can have confidence in

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the NHS, then they need to take action, if appropriate, they need

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to act. It is for them to determine. Why is it the case that the chief

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executive of this hospital, who was in charge at the time and appointed

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by the man who is now the chief executive of the NHS, he left with

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a pay-off and now has another job in the health industry - why?

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is a big issue for Ross. People who are deemed to have been failing to

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the extent where they have not upheld the values of the health

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service, we shouldn't have a system whereby people are working again.

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But there are many cases where understanding what went wrong is a

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question of helping people explained and trying to put things

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right. You know as well as I do that rather than criminal charges

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and people being struck off, most of the people involved in the mid-

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Staffs spag bol have either taken pay-offs and disappeared or been

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moved around the NHS. Do you accept that it is perfectly possible,

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perhaps not in the grand, horrific scale of made it Staffs, that what

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happened there is happening now and other hospitals? I do believe it's

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lessons, we've got to think this is not just about one hospital. I

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don't think it's widespread and I don't think it's on anything like

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the scale. But there are issues in other hospitals where the culture

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of those organisations is the kind of thing we saw in mid-

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Staffordshire. What we need to do today is absolutely learn these

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lessons and be as honest and open as we can. We know that among

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doctors, clinicians and even medical students there's a list of

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hospitals that they wouldn't want to go to themselves or send friends

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or family to. Do you know that list? I do. I know a list not where

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people shouldn't go, but I know the list that describes the variation

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in performance between hospitals. Can we have that list? It should be

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made available. When I was in the north-west, my previous job, that's

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what we did. We published the variation in standards of care.

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What that did, importantly, was not only get the public access to

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understand that, but it was an incentive for the clinicians to

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improve their services. So you are confirming there is a secret list

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know within the NHS to which they themselves would not wish to be

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treated at, but we, the people who paid �2 billion a week for our

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services, we are not allowed to know that list. What I'm not saying

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is, there is not a secret list about where people want to be

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treated, but there is information within the service about the

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variability of performance. If we are to learn the lessons from its

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stature, we need to make it more public. The public need to see more

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about the variations. The case we've been making for change to

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improve our outcomes relies on the public understanding that

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variability. This is very important. This is a chance to open up and

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make sure the NHS, which belongs to the people,, we provide that data

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for them to see that variability. how could Labour have let this

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happen? It's shocking. The report that is coming out today, there

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will be nothing new in relation to the lack of care provided a full

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patients, we know from the first inquiry that the level of care

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inquiry was shocking. You boasted about being the party of the NHS.

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This was when you were in power, and you were travelling the amount

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of money spent on the NHS. This isn't the normal Tory cuts

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narratives. This happened on your watch when he was stuffing money

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into it. No excuses for Mid Staffordshire. But to extrapolate

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from Mid Staffordshire that the entire NHS has a problem, or that

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all the money invested in extra nurses and doctors was a waste of

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time would be wrong. Nobody is saying that. No one is saying that

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the entire NHS is like Mid-Staffs. Don't set up on and Sally on that.

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But what Mr Fallon has conceded is what is happening at Mid-Staffs

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could still be happening and has happened in other parts of the NHS.

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The reason why it's more likely to happen than not is because one of

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the lessons from Mid Staffordshire, in the emergency units there were

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50 % less doctors and nurses than they should have been. Another less

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that could lead to problems. We also know there are cultural

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problems where the management... results in patients having to drink

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water out of farce as. The report says there were less than half the

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levels of doctors and nurses in the indie than they should have been.

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I'm not using that as an excuse, and explaining the facts uncovered

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today by Robert Francis. Why didn't you have a public inquiry when you

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were in government? Andy Burnham ordered an inquiry. The important

:21:20.:21:23.

thing was to get the lessons quickly. Within five months, France

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has produced his first report. This public inquiry has taken two-and-a-

:21:28.:21:32.

half years. Not belittling the lessons learned today, but two-and-

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a-half years was too long. The man who was chairman of the Strategic

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Health Authorities under which Mid- Staffs came, and is strongly

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criticised in the Francis report, is the man who will point to the

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chief-executive to the Mid Staffs Hospital. He's now the man under

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your government who is the chairman of the NHS commissioning Board. How

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did that happen? He is, yes. We will have to see the report as to

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what level of responsibility Mr Francis attracts to him. But he

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wasn't the one running the hospital. He was supervising it. We need to

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be clear what this report says. It's one thing to say, how did

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Labour allow it to happen? If it emerges that it was Labour have

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encouraged it to happen through the target obsessed culture that all of

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these trusts were under, if that emerges today then we are certainly

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looking for an apology from former Labour ministers. Andy Burnham and

:22:30.:22:34.

Alan Johnston have both apologised. If it emerges that the results of

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the inquiry are that less regulations lead to catastrophe, as

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the minister in charge of reducing regulation, one of the downside of

:22:42.:22:45.

having been up regulation for managers is you can have this sort

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of problem. Managers who are doing an appalling job leave the trust,

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get a pay-off and go somewhere else within the organisation. It's

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important to point out there on reforms already on the way, partly

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as a result of the first report. Will any of these reforms address

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what happened at Mid Staffs? Most patients are checked hourly to make

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sure they are being fed properly, they are not dehydrated. But the

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crucial... It's not a target, that's a practice. To say patients

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should be checked hourly is a target. It's a rule. From April,

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GPs, if they are not happy but the hospital they preferred their

:23:28.:23:31.

patients to, they will be in the driving seat from this April and

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will be able to stop sending patients to a hospital like

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Stafford and transferred them elsewhere. For the first time, GPs

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will be properly in charge. Do we need an external hospital

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inspectorate, like a schools inspectorate that can go in, and if

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they discover even a shadow of what was happening at Mid-Staffs they

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say, either improve or you close? There's a very important point

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about the extent to which you rely on external regulation and

:23:59.:24:03.

inspection, for what is partly a job of the culture within that

:24:03.:24:06.

organisation. Because we've lost some of the public confidence,

:24:06.:24:10.

there is a strong argument about improving our regulatory system.

:24:10.:24:15.

What about an inspectorate? Staff gave great care when they feel

:24:15.:24:19.

really valued, not really inspected. We have to have a situation inside

:24:19.:24:23.

hospitals where people take ownership. That is incredibly vague.

:24:23.:24:28.

We don't know what the culture is until we are in hospital and are in

:24:28.:24:32.

no condition to argue about the culture. We are hoping at the very

:24:32.:24:35.

least we may get a glass of water and some decent care that we paid

:24:35.:24:39.

for through our taxes. Do we need an inspectorate to ensure that we

:24:39.:24:46.

don't end up in a hospital like Mid-Staffs? We already have

:24:46.:24:49.

inspection in the Care Quality Commission. Robert Francis will say

:24:49.:24:53.

it has not worked properly we need to look carefully at that. If we

:24:53.:24:58.

simply think this is about better regulation outside of the hospital,

:24:58.:25:03.

we miss the point of it. The NHS does 1 million consultations every

:25:03.:25:06.

36 hours. We can't expect all of that. You rely heavily on the staff

:25:06.:25:10.

at the bedside showing care and compassion, and you get that

:25:10.:25:14.

because you have a good culture in those hospitals. Inspection back

:25:14.:25:23.

that up but it starts with people inside the hospital do. We are

:25:23.:25:29.

going to go to PMQs at noon today. The Prime Minister will be making a

:25:29.:25:32.

statement. It is not the Health Secretary that is making a

:25:32.:25:36.

statement, which is indicative of the severity of this matter. The

:25:36.:25:43.

Prime Minister himself will make the statement on the Frances report.

:25:43.:25:49.

We will bring you part of that. In the run-up to PMQs, we always have

:25:49.:25:57.

what is the highlight of the fun side of the Daily Politics. There's

:25:57.:26:01.

almost nothing that money can't buy in the 21st century. In fact, we

:26:01.:26:05.

heard last night that if you have �20,000 to spare, you could have

:26:05.:26:09.

landed yourself but this fantastic work of art at a charity auction.

:26:10.:26:13.

Showing the care for penmanship of the Chancellor of the Exchequer,

:26:13.:26:18.

George Osborne. Vanguard he hasn't got anything else to do, like run

:26:18.:26:22.

the economy. It does look like he had to take the day off to finish

:26:22.:26:28.

that, does it? Even �20,000 is not enough for this. The Daily Politics

:26:28.:26:36.

mug. It is! Actually, you can only get it if you win our weekly Guess

:26:36.:26:46.
:26:46.:26:55.

the Year competition. Let's see if We have had Mr Powell in the party

:26:55.:27:05.
:27:05.:27:22.

until quite recently. Perhaps he # It's an ancient Chinese art and

:27:22.:27:32.
:27:32.:27:43.

# So how could I ever refuse. # I feel like I win when I lose.

:27:43.:27:53.
:27:53.:27:57.

# Waterloo, couldn't escape if I To begin with a chance of winning a

:27:57.:28:00.

Daily Politics mug, send your answer to our special quiz e-mail

:28:00.:28:04.

address which is on screen now. You can see the full terms and

:28:05.:28:14.
:28:15.:28:15.

It is coming up to midday. Let's take a look at Big Ben. It means

:28:15.:28:19.

only one thing. Prime Minister's Questions. Steve Richards of the

:28:19.:28:25.

Independent is here. Welcome back. The Mid-Staffs is the Big story,

:28:25.:28:30.

not just of the day but of the week, may be of the month. It's a service

:28:30.:28:35.

we all use and depend on. This is yet another appalling report on it.

:28:35.:28:39.

Because the Prime Minister is making a statement at 1230, am I

:28:39.:28:43.

right in thinking the leader of the opposition will not go on this at

:28:43.:28:47.

PMQs? Absolutely. He will be responding to David Cameron. It is

:28:47.:28:51.

fascinating that David Cameron has decided he is making the statement,

:28:51.:28:56.

on about 10 different levels. He will avoid that at PMQs. My guess

:28:56.:29:00.

is he will avoid gay marriage as well, because they agreed. There

:29:00.:29:03.

will probably be a joke about the division in the Tory parliamentary

:29:03.:29:06.

party, but I don't think you will go bit of that. On the banks, they

:29:07.:29:11.

are broadly in the same place at the moment. My guess is he would

:29:11.:29:14.

choose something else on which there is a big difference, welfare

:29:14.:29:24.

reform or something. The economy. If in doubt, use the economy. There

:29:24.:29:29.

will be a few jokes, but they will both be fully aware that the news

:29:29.:29:33.

story to emerge in the next hour or so will be their exchanges on Mid-

:29:33.:29:37.

Staffs. He and Cameron will be relatively relaxed about what

:29:37.:29:41.

follows in the next half-an-hour. Perhaps that will affect the mood

:29:41.:29:46.

of the house as well. That they know that following PMQs, there's

:29:46.:29:49.

something very serious about hundreds of lives that were lost,

:29:49.:29:54.

about a problem in the service that we are also proud of. It's a

:29:54.:29:58.

massive story. David Cameron obviously recognises the severity

:29:58.:30:03.

of the story. Clearly, every act is multi-layered. He sees some

:30:03.:30:07.

political advantage in making the statement. It happened under

:30:07.:30:10.

Labour's watch. But it's a really interesting story because in

:30:10.:30:14.

opposition, David Cameron would always say to me, if there's a

:30:14.:30:17.

problem in a single hospital, we will say, this is not a government

:30:18.:30:22.

problem, we have localised health care, it's their problem. He's

:30:22.:30:25.

doing the exact opposite and saying, look, I'm taking responsibility for

:30:25.:30:29.

this. He's done this kind of father of the nation at what the Bloody

:30:30.:30:33.

Sunday inquiry. He did it with Hillsborough. He was thought to do

:30:33.:30:37.

very well with both of these and be seen to speak about party issues.

:30:37.:30:42.

Were he tried to do the same with this? Tonally, perhaps, but this is

:30:42.:30:46.

also highly political. Everything to do with the NHS is. It's also to

:30:46.:30:51.

do with the present debate. I think he will part the use it to say,

:30:51.:30:55.

look, this is why we felt the need to reform the NHS. Unlike those

:30:56.:30:59.

previous statements, which he did brilliantly about past events,

:30:59.:31:03.

there's a political dimension to this one. It isn't clear to me how

:31:03.:31:07.

the Government's reforms, they made the right or wrong, but it's not

:31:07.:31:11.

clear how they would impact directly on the midst of City

:31:11.:31:16.

Whitton. I'm sorry, I asked that question and I can't take the

:31:16.:31:26.
:31:26.:31:34.

I thank my right honourable friend for the answer. Having given my

:31:34.:31:38.

right honourable friend notice of my question, which he may find

:31:38.:31:44.

useful in the sense that it is transparent and also very modern...

:31:44.:31:47.

Can my right honourable friend say that in response to the many

:31:47.:31:53.

concerns expressed in yesterday's debate, which he ensure that civil

:31:53.:31:56.

partnerships are open to heterosexual couples on an equal

:31:56.:32:01.

basis with homosexual couples? very grateful to my honourable

:32:01.:32:07.

friend for giving me notice of his questions. Frankly, I am a marriage

:32:07.:32:12.

man. I am a great supporter of marriage. I want to promote, defend

:32:12.:32:16.

and encourage marriage and the great thing about last night's vote

:32:16.:32:21.

is that two gay people who love it sure there will now be able to get

:32:21.:32:29.

married and I think we should be promoting marriage. Ed Miliband!

:32:29.:32:34.

Speaker, I want to ask the Prime Minister about the bedroom tax.

:32:34.:32:39.

Alison in Middlesbrough has 18- year-old twin sons in the army. The

:32:39.:32:43.

bedroom tax means that while her sons are a way, she will be charged

:32:43.:32:48.

more for their bedrooms. She says, I resent the fact that my sons are

:32:48.:32:52.

serving their country and in return will not have a home to come home

:32:52.:32:56.

to when they are granted their much-needed leaves. What is the

:32:56.:33:02.

Prime Minister's answer to Alison? Let me make clear, this is not

:33:02.:33:12.
:33:12.:33:16.

attacks, this is a benefit. -- a tax. First of all, it all the time

:33:16.:33:21.

that Labour was in government, if you were in a private sector rented

:33:21.:33:25.

home and you were in receipt of housing benefit, you did not get

:33:25.:33:30.

any benefit for empty rooms. That is important. It is only fair we

:33:30.:33:36.

treat people in social housing the same way. If anyone is away from

:33:36.:33:40.

home then obviously their earnings are not counted and therefore the

:33:40.:33:47.

benefits of that person are likely to go up. SHOUTING.

:33:47.:33:53.

I look forward to him explaining to Alison why her paying �25 a week

:33:53.:34:01.

more from April is not a tax on her! And as for his point about the

:34:01.:34:05.

private rented sector, I think he misunderstands the point of social

:34:05.:34:10.

housing. Part of its purpose is to protect the most vulnerable and

:34:10.:34:15.

according to the government's figures, two-thirds of the people

:34:15.:34:19.

hit a disabled. Let me tell the Prime Minister about any mail I

:34:19.:34:24.

received last week. It says, my wife has a degenerative condition

:34:24.:34:28.

and is cared for in bed. Due to her illness and my own medical

:34:28.:34:32.

conditions, I sleep in the spare bedroom.

:34:32.:34:37.

A why is it fair for him and hundreds of thousands of others,

:34:37.:34:43.

disabled people like him, to be hit by the bedroom tax? As with every

:34:43.:34:47.

honourable member, if he wants me or the Department of Work and

:34:47.:34:54.

Pensions to look at a specific case, of course I will. Let me make some

:34:54.:34:59.

detailed points of. First of all, there is a �50 million fund to deal

:34:59.:35:04.

with difficult cases. But let me also make the basic argument of

:35:04.:35:09.

fairness that he seems to miss. If you are in private renting housing

:35:09.:35:13.

and receive no housing benefit, you don't get money for an extra room.

:35:14.:35:18.

If you are in private housing and to get housing benefit, you don't

:35:18.:35:22.

get money for an extra room. So why should we be doing more for people

:35:22.:35:26.

in social housing on housing benefit of their own people in

:35:26.:35:30.

private housing on housing benefit? Another additional point that

:35:30.:35:37.

frankly he has got to engage in. The housing benefit bill is now �23

:35:37.:35:42.

billion a year! We know that he is against capping welfare, we know he

:35:42.:35:47.

is against restricting welfare to below the rate of increase in wages,

:35:47.:35:51.

we know all the things he is against. We are beginning to wonder

:35:51.:35:58.

what on earth he is for! He is spending more than �8 billion more

:35:58.:36:02.

than he planned on housing benefit because of his economic failure

:36:02.:36:08.

during this parliament! And I just say to him, the whole point of

:36:08.:36:11.

social housing is to protect families including the disabled. He

:36:11.:36:15.

does not sound like he will do anything for military families or

:36:15.:36:21.

the disabled, but let's talk about a group of people he Eva's -- he is

:36:21.:36:25.

moved by. I have a letter sent on his behalf by the Conservative

:36:25.:36:30.

Party treasurer about the so-called mansion tax and it says this: "we

:36:30.:36:34.

promised that no homes tax will be introduced during the course of

:36:34.:36:40.

this parliament. To keep the taxman out of your home, please help by

:36:40.:36:46.

donating today and supporting the no homes tax campaign". Can the

:36:46.:36:49.

Prime Minster explain what is it about the plight of those people

:36:49.:36:52.

that he finds so much more compelling than those hit by the

:36:53.:37:01.

bedroom tax? If he is in favour of a mansion tax, why didn't he

:37:01.:37:05.

introduce one in the 13 years in government? If he is so passionate

:37:05.:37:09.

about social housing, why didn't he build any when he was in

:37:09.:37:13.

government? If he thinks we are spending too much on housing

:37:13.:37:17.

benefit, why does see a POS each and every attempt we meant to get

:37:18.:37:22.

the Welfare Bill under control -- why does he opposed? The fact is,

:37:22.:37:26.

we are on this side of people who work hard and want to do the right

:37:27.:37:32.

thing! All he can ever do is spend more money! I do say to the Prime

:37:32.:37:38.

Minister, he should not get so het up. After all, he has got nearly

:37:38.:37:48.
:37:48.:37:49.

half his parliamentary party behind him! CHEERING. Mr Speaker, and the

:37:49.:37:56.

policy is not just unfair, it is not going to work either. In Hull,

:37:56.:38:02.

4700 people are going to be hit by the bedroom tax and there are just

:38:02.:38:06.

73 council property is for them to move to. Can the Prime Minister

:38:06.:38:11.

explain how exactly that is going to work? What this government is

:38:11.:38:16.

doing it... We are building more houses and controlling welfare

:38:16.:38:21.

bills but frankly the question is one he has to answer, too. If he is

:38:21.:38:25.

against the welfare cap and restrictions on increased welfare,

:38:25.:38:30.

if he opposes reform or disability benefits and each and every welfare

:38:30.:38:35.

change we make, how on earth is he going to get control of public

:38:35.:38:45.
:38:45.:38:45.

spending? A clue is in the title, a prime minister's Quincy -- Prime

:38:45.:38:49.

Minister's Questions. He is opposed to answer the questions. I thought

:38:49.:38:53.

he might say move to the private rented sector because there are not

:38:53.:39:03.

enough council properties, but this is where... But this is where... I

:39:03.:39:07.

would like him to say what those people should do! The policy is

:39:07.:39:11.

supposed to save money and this is where it is not going to work out.

:39:11.:39:17.

Another woman wrote to me and said, my rent for my family home...

:39:17.:39:24.

SHOUTING. I don't know why they are groaning, Mr Speaker. Thousands of

:39:24.:39:29.

their constituents will be hit by this! Another woman who wrote to me

:39:29.:39:36.

says "my rent for my family home is �65.68 whereas a one-bedroom in the

:39:36.:39:41.

private sector would cost over �100". How can it possibly makes

:39:41.:39:45.

sense to force people into a situation where they cost the state

:39:45.:39:51.

more, not less, by moving to the private rented sector? The his

:39:51.:39:59.

government is building more homes! If he supports that, perhaps he

:39:59.:40:02.

will tell us he supports the changes to the planning system,

:40:02.:40:06.

their new homes bonus, the things that will get more homes built and

:40:06.:40:10.

more people into jobs? We have 1 million extra people working in the

:40:10.:40:16.

private sector. That is what he has got to engage in. He has got

:40:16.:40:20.

absolutely no suggestions for how to get on top of well-fed, get the

:40:20.:40:25.

deficit down and get the economy moving -- get on top of welfare.

:40:25.:40:29.

Today we discovered he has not even got a clue about his own policy

:40:29.:40:33.

that he will introduce in April and his answers remind us what his

:40:33.:40:37.

party and the country are saying about him. The only people he

:40:37.:40:41.

listens to our small group of rich and powerful people at the top.

:40:41.:40:46.

That is why he has come up with a policy that is unfair. He is a

:40:46.:40:49.

prime minister who is weak, incompetent and totally out of

:40:49.:40:56.

touch! Totally pathetic scripted rubbish that we get used to every

:40:56.:41:01.

Wednesday. On the issue of who listens to whom, I have a very

:41:01.:41:07.

clear idea of who he listens to, because we heard it in the LSE

:41:07.:41:13.

lecture by Len McCluskey! Len McCluskey said this. He said, oh I

:41:13.:41:17.

met Ed Miliband and he asked me this question, this is the question

:41:17.:41:22.

he asked Len McCluskey. If you had three wishes, three things you

:41:22.:41:27.

would like us to do if we got back into power, what would you like

:41:27.:41:34.

them to be? Len McCluskey's answer: Trade union freedom, trade union

:41:34.:41:38.

freedom, trade union freedom. That is who he was to be fairy godmother

:41:38.:41:48.
:41:48.:41:51.

to! James Arbuthnot! At the time of the strategic defence and security

:41:51.:41:55.

review, two-and-a-half years ago, my right honourable friend is said

:41:55.:41:59.

my own strong view is that this structure will require a year on

:41:59.:42:03.

year real terms growth in the defence budget in the years beyond

:42:03.:42:10.

2015. Does that remain his view? As he heard any similar view expressed

:42:10.:42:16.

by the leader of the opposition? -- has he heard? It does remain my

:42:16.:42:20.

view but I am the only party leader who believes that in the use be on

:42:20.:42:25.

this parliament, we should be increasing defence spending -- in

:42:25.:42:29.

that the years beyond this parliament. But the good news is

:42:29.:42:33.

that it is actually agreed government policy that the defence

:42:33.:42:38.

equipment programme does need real terms increases after 2015, and

:42:38.:42:42.

that is very important for us to be able to plan the exceptional

:42:42.:42:46.

equipment programme that we have to give us some of the best-equipped

:42:46.:42:53.

armed forces anywhere in the world. Mr Speaker, the Budget Office

:42:53.:42:57.

responsibility, the Office for Budget Responsibility rather...

:42:57.:43:06.

Laughter... Tells us that the bankers will spend �500 million

:43:06.:43:11.

less in the bank has tax than the Prime Minister promised last year,

:43:11.:43:15.

yet in April he will inflict a �500 million cut in the poorest through

:43:15.:43:20.

the empty bedroom tax. How can he justify taking from the Paul and

:43:20.:43:28.

giving to the rich? Robin Hood! the poor. We think the bank levy is

:43:28.:43:31.

a better answer than a one-off bonus tax and the bank levy will be

:43:31.:43:35.

paid every year and so it will raise considerably more than a one-

:43:35.:43:39.

off bonus tax and what the Chancellor has done, when the bank

:43:39.:43:43.

levy has not come up to the figures that we require, is to increase the

:43:43.:43:50.

bank levy to make sure that it does. Can I remind the House of my

:43:50.:43:54.

declared interest? Tomorrow the Prime Minister will go to Brussels

:43:54.:44:00.

to rightly argue for a reduction in CAP funding. Will he ensure that

:44:00.:44:05.

any reduction applies to farmers right across Europe and not just in

:44:05.:44:09.

the UK? Will he make sure he does not fall into the trap fallen into

:44:09.:44:14.

by his predecessor in 2005, that when pressing for cuts ended up

:44:15.:44:19.

with a cut to the one part that everybody thinks is worth well,

:44:19.:44:23.

which is cut to the environment and the World Development Programme?

:44:23.:44:28.

right honourable friend speaks very knowledgeably about this. These

:44:28.:44:32.

will be extremely difficult negotiations and obviously our aim

:44:32.:44:37.

is what the significant cut I have spoken about, but the point about

:44:37.:44:41.

agriculture is important, particularly about the flexibility

:44:41.:44:44.

we required to make sure things like that rural development

:44:44.:44:49.

programme can continue to succeed. We know the Prime Minister has met

:44:49.:44:54.

lots of millionaires. But has he ever met anyone who will lose their

:44:54.:45:04.
:45:04.:45:13.

I have RAF Brize Norton in my constituency, so I have many forces

:45:13.:45:17.

families living there. But what they say to me is they want a

:45:17.:45:20.

government that is on the side of people who work hard and do the

:45:20.:45:23.

right thing. They support the fact that we are capping welfare, we are

:45:23.:45:26.

getting on top of immigration and clearing up the mess left by her

:45:26.:45:35.

party. Today is the United Nations International Date of zero-

:45:35.:45:37.

tolerance to female genital mutilation. Does the Prime Minister

:45:37.:45:40.

agree with me that Britain should be doing all it can to combat this

:45:40.:45:45.

dreadful abuse of the Human Rights of Women and girls, overseas and

:45:46.:45:52.

here in the UK? I completely agree. She is right to raise this. The

:45:52.:45:55.

government has made progress on this, chairing a forum looking

:45:55.:45:59.

right across the piece, including what we do overseas in terms of our

:45:59.:46:03.

aid programme and trying to prevent the horrific female genital

:46:03.:46:08.

mutilation, but also to make sure here that the Crown Prosecution

:46:08.:46:10.

Service and others are aware of the law on to everything they can to

:46:10.:46:17.

make sure it is properly prosecuted. Can the Prime Minister confirmed

:46:17.:46:24.

that Atos have declared that much of the third is fit for work? --

:46:24.:46:30.

Richard III. That is not a constituency case that has come my

:46:30.:46:35.

way. All I can say is I hope it's going to engender a great

:46:35.:46:39.

historical understanding of these events. I hope it will be a great

:46:39.:46:47.

boost to the great city of Leicester. This week's announcement

:46:47.:46:50.

that the work of the Stockton Insolvency Service is moving to

:46:50.:46:54.

Newcastle is the latest in a long series of similar announcements

:46:54.:46:57.

affecting the Tees Valley, including the closure of

:46:57.:47:01.

Middlesbrough's HMRC office by the previous government. Will the Prime

:47:01.:47:05.

Minister look to bring extra work to the HMRC office in Stockton and

:47:05.:47:11.

to moving another public-sector agency to the Tees Valley? I will

:47:11.:47:14.

look carefully at what my Honourable Friend says. Of course

:47:14.:47:17.

we want to make sure that public sector jobs are fairly distributed

:47:18.:47:21.

around the country. But we have to be frank, the real need for our

:47:21.:47:25.

economy is a rebalancing with a growth in the private sector to

:47:25.:47:28.

make up for the fact that public sector jobs have declined. As we

:47:28.:47:32.

look over the last two-and-a-half years, the million extra private

:47:32.:47:36.

sector jobs has more than offset the decline in public sector and

:47:36.:47:39.

employment. That is why we can see unemployment falling around the

:47:39.:47:46.

country. The Prime Minister may not be aware of an opinion poll by the

:47:46.:47:51.

BBC in Northern Ireland which shows that in all of the six counties of

:47:51.:47:53.

Northern Ireland there is now a clear majority in favour of the

:47:53.:47:56.

Union. Because people right across Northern Ireland recognise that

:47:56.:48:00.

when it comes to being part of this United Kingdom, we are better off

:48:00.:48:07.

together. I sometimes try and avoid opinion polls, so I haven't seen

:48:07.:48:10.

that one. It looks like one that will lift the spirits of almost

:48:10.:48:15.

everyone in this house, because we believe in the United Kingdom and

:48:15.:48:23.

we believe in Northern Ireland being part of that UK. Can the

:48:23.:48:28.

Prime Minister reassure this house that he still believes in

:48:28.:48:32.

increasing spending on the NHS, making sure that those funds go to

:48:32.:48:36.

the frontline doctors and nurses at the frontline of our service?

:48:37.:48:41.

give him that assurance. That is why we are committed to increase

:48:41.:48:44.

NHS spending during this Parliament for each year in this Parliament.

:48:44.:48:48.

We are on course to do that. But we do want to make sure the money goes

:48:48.:48:52.

to the front line. That is why the number of managers and

:48:52.:48:55.

administrators in our NHS is right down and the number of clinical

:48:55.:49:02.

staff is right up. Was it the double-dip recession, the slowdown

:49:02.:49:05.

in deficit reduction or the projected 60 % increase in national

:49:05.:49:08.

debt over the next five years that led the Prime Minister to state

:49:08.:49:13.

that he had full confidence in his Chancellor? Why have confidence in

:49:13.:49:18.

the Chancellor, the deficit is down 25 %. Deraa 1 million extra private

:49:18.:49:26.

sector jobs. We are cleaning up the mess made by the party opposite.

:49:26.:49:30.

Dover, plans are moving forward for the building of a new hospital,

:49:30.:49:34.

after a decade in which local hospital services were decimated.

:49:34.:49:39.

Can I, too, say the need to increase investment in the NHS and

:49:39.:49:44.

ensure real focus on the frontline. On this day particularly, when we

:49:44.:49:48.

are back to discuss what happened at the Staffordshire Hospital, it

:49:48.:49:51.

is a day to talk about the importance of care in our health

:49:51.:49:54.

service, the importance of the frontline and the have porters,

:49:54.:49:58.

above all, of really looking at quality and listening to patients.

:49:58.:50:01.

Under this government, of course resources have been constrained,

:50:01.:50:05.

for all the reasons we have discussed across the despatch box

:50:05.:50:08.

as week in week out, but we did make a conscious choice to put more

:50:08.:50:11.

money into the NHS and to get back to the front five. That is why

:50:12.:50:18.

there are 5900 or doctors and there are 19,000 fewer non-clinical staff.

:50:18.:50:21.

The money is going into the frontline of the bloggers needs to

:50:21.:50:29.

be on the quality and patients. -- but the focus needs to be on the

:50:29.:50:33.

quality and the patience. Is the Prime Minister concerned about

:50:33.:50:37.

suicide levels in our society? Will he assure me and his party of the

:50:37.:50:40.

Government's support to raise awareness of the issues and work

:50:40.:50:44.

with devolved administrations to tackle the scourge across all of

:50:44.:50:51.

the UK and Northern Ireland. And I commend the Honourable Gentleman

:50:51.:50:53.

and Democratic Unionists for bringing this issue forward. The

:50:53.:50:58.

whole issue of suicide is one we often don't talk enough about in

:50:58.:51:02.

our society. I think it is absolutely right to do so. It is a

:51:02.:51:05.

shocking statistic that in Northern Ireland, almost six times the

:51:05.:51:09.

number of people killed in road traffic accidents of lost to

:51:09.:51:13.

suicide. Raising awareness of this and making sure there's a proper

:51:13.:51:16.

Cross Government's strategy to help people deal with this is vitally

:51:16.:51:21.

important. As a result of the financial mess the Labour

:51:21.:51:31.
:51:31.:51:38.

government left the country in... Local councils... Order, a house

:51:38.:51:44.

must come down. I intend to get through the questions. Local

:51:44.:51:49.

councils have raised as tough a budget settlement as most other

:51:49.:51:53.

government departments. Does the Prime Minister share my dismay that

:51:53.:51:58.

Manchester City Council is choosing to close libraries, leisure centres

:51:58.:52:02.

and the Mersey Valley warden service, while at the same time was

:52:02.:52:06.

happy to spend hundreds of thousands of pounds on an Alicia

:52:06.:52:12.

Keys concert, and leave 100 million reserve sitting in the bank?

:52:12.:52:16.

makes an important point. Of course councils face difficult spending

:52:16.:52:20.

decisions. But if you look at the level of spending on the level of

:52:20.:52:22.

grant they are still getting in many cases, it is equivalent to

:52:22.:52:26.

what we were getting under the last government. Obviously the economy

:52:26.:52:30.

has declined since then and so we have to cut our cloth accordingly.

:52:30.:52:34.

But they should be held accountable for the decisions they make. In

:52:34.:52:38.

some cases they can be little doubt that councils are making high-

:52:38.:52:41.

profile cuts to try and make a point, and they shouldn't be

:52:41.:52:44.

damaging people's livelihoods, they should be doing the best for their

:52:44.:52:51.

cities. Would the Prime Minister confirm for the record that thanks

:52:51.:52:54.

to his cuts to the childcare element of the working tax credit,

:52:54.:53:02.

families with children are losing up to �1,500 a year? What has

:53:02.:53:06.

happened and have a child tax credit is we increased it by �390

:53:06.:53:10.

in the early budgets of this government. If you look at the

:53:10.:53:16.

benefits for Ade two parent, two child family, they will be getting

:53:16.:53:21.

over �1,500 extra this year, that's �30 a week, compared to 2010. The

:53:21.:53:28.

Honourable Gentleman is wrong. the Prime Minister paid tribute to

:53:28.:53:33.

the new President of Somalia, whose government has made remarkable

:53:33.:53:37.

progress over the last few months? Although there is still a long way

:53:37.:53:41.

to go, would he agree with me that the Somali and peace process is a

:53:41.:53:44.

really good example of Britain combining aid and development with

:53:45.:53:47.

energising the neighbouring states and the diplomatic community

:53:47.:53:53.

worldwide? Can he tell the House, what role does he envisage here in

:53:53.:53:59.

the UK? He makes an important point. Anyone wondering the relevance of

:53:59.:54:02.

Somalia to hear in the UK, we have to remember that this country has

:54:02.:54:07.

been the author of huge amounts of problems, from terrorism, piracy,

:54:07.:54:12.

mass migration. Even to the most hardy sceptic of our aid budget, I

:54:12.:54:16.

would say this is a really good case where engagement, aid and

:54:16.:54:20.

diplomacy can help that country to mend itself for the future. In

:54:20.:54:23.

terms of the diaspora, I hope they will give full support to the new

:54:23.:54:27.

President, who is demonstrating huge grip in his country at mending

:54:27.:54:31.

that pop -- mending the problems that have devilled that country for

:54:31.:54:35.

so long. The Prime Minister's Korea probably peaked when he was a

:54:35.:54:41.

backbench member of the Home Affairs Committee in 2005. Can he

:54:41.:54:46.

revived his progressive courage at that time when he looks at the

:54:46.:54:51.

report from the all-party group about the awful problems of new

:54:51.:54:59.

drugs that on the market but are not controlled in any way? I am

:54:59.:55:03.

grateful for his view of my career trajectory. I won't ask him about

:55:03.:55:11.

his. I think that the Home Affairs Select Committee that I work on, I

:55:11.:55:15.

did learn some important lessons from that. The priority we should

:55:15.:55:19.

give in terms of tackling drugs, to education and treatment. Those of

:55:19.:55:23.

the absolutely key arms of what needs to be done. Then I don't

:55:23.:55:27.

believe we should be legalising any drugs that are currently illegal.

:55:27.:55:33.

In terms of current legal highs and problems relating to the last

:55:33.:55:38.

question about things like CAT, we need to look at the evidence of

:55:38.:55:44.

what will work best. In Solihull, over 80,000 people have benefited

:55:44.:55:49.

from our policy of raising the threshold at which people start to

:55:49.:55:57.

pay tax. This morning, the IFS confirmed that this policy is right,

:55:57.:56:02.

and those who have the broadest shoulders are bearing the greatest

:56:02.:56:09.

burden of tax. In the light of this, will the government commit to

:56:09.:56:15.

raising the threshold at which people pay tax to �10,000 in his

:56:15.:56:23.

Budget? She is absolutely right. Raising the threshold before which

:56:23.:56:27.

people start to pay tax has been absolutely right. What it has meant

:56:27.:56:32.

is someone on minimum-wage, working full-time, their tax bill has been

:56:32.:56:37.

cut by half. That is a huge change to help people who work hard, who

:56:37.:56:40.

want to do the right thing. It is this government that is rewarding

:56:40.:56:44.

them. She mentions the Institute for Fiscal Studies Green Budget out

:56:44.:56:48.

this morning, I haven't had that much time to study it. But on the

:56:48.:56:52.

issue of fairness it says this. The whole set of tax and benefit

:56:53.:57:01.

changes introduced between the start of 2010 and 2015-2016 hit the

:57:01.:57:07.

richest hardest -- households hardest. The leader of the

:57:07.:57:11.

opposition asked the Prime Minister a simple question to which he gave

:57:11.:57:15.

no adequate reply. I will ask it again. What is the difference

:57:15.:57:19.

between a bedroom tax on the disabled and a mansion tax on

:57:19.:57:25.

millionaires? I don't accept that the bedroom tax is a tax. It is an

:57:25.:57:31.

issue about benefit. As a country, we are spending �23 billion on

:57:31.:57:35.

housing benefit. We have to have a debate in this country. The last

:57:35.:57:38.

government said we had to have a debate in this country about

:57:38.:57:42.

getting on top of housing benefit. Indeed, it featured in the Labour

:57:42.:57:46.

manifesto. The manifesto on which they were all elected. But since

:57:46.:57:50.

they have moved to the opposition benches, they have given up all

:57:50.:57:57.

pretence at responsibility at all. Can the Prime Minister reconcile

:57:57.:58:01.

his recent comments on the need to accelerate major infrastructure

:58:01.:58:04.

projects that the Government's decision to postpone forming a

:58:04.:58:07.

policy on airports until after the next general election, and what he

:58:07.:58:15.

reconsider and bring back review for what? -- bring that review

:58:15.:58:19.

forward? It looks at what how would Davies has said in terms of his

:58:19.:58:22.

review, he has said this is a very complicated issue that merits

:58:22.:58:27.

proper examination that will take time. We need, as a country, to

:58:27.:58:31.

make major decisions about airport and airport capacity. We should be

:58:31.:58:34.

aiming as far as is possible to try and make these decisions on a

:58:34.:58:43.

cross-party basis. I hope that the report will help that to happen.

:58:43.:58:49.

Last night's vote on same-sex marriage is widely regarded as a

:58:49.:58:53.

historic vote. Does the Prime Minister agree with me that it is a

:58:53.:58:58.

tribute to all of the people down the decades, in all parties and in

:58:58.:59:04.

no party, behind the scenes and in public, who have worked for such

:59:04.:59:07.

equality? And does the Prime Minister agree with me that the

:59:08.:59:12.

vote proves that the Ark of history Ben's slowly, but it bends towards

:59:12.:59:20.

justice? I agree. I think last night's vote will be seen not just

:59:20.:59:24.

as making sure there is a proper element of equality, but also

:59:24.:59:29.

helping us to build a stronger and fairer society. I thought many of

:59:29.:59:33.

the speeches made last night were very moving, very emotional and I

:59:33.:59:36.

would pay tribute to all of those people who actually made this case,

:59:36.:59:40.

some of them for many years, saying that they want their love to count

:59:40.:59:44.

the same way that a man and woman's love for each of accounts. That is

:59:44.:59:48.

what we have opened now in this country. That is why I'm proud that

:59:48.:59:54.

its this government that has brought it forward. For years,

:59:54.:59:59.

young people in cool and break have enjoyed some of the lowest per

:59:59.:00:03.

pupil school funding in the country. This has become critical for Caddis

:00:03.:00:07.

such as the East Riding of Yorkshire. Can the Prime Minister

:00:07.:00:10.

look closely at the East Riding of Yorkshire and the lower level of

:00:10.:00:15.

per pupil funding they receive? will look closely at what he has

:00:15.:00:20.

said. I would make a couple of points. Within the education budget

:00:20.:00:25.

we have prioritised the per pupil funding, so there hasn't been a

:00:25.:00:29.

reduction in that. I think it's very important schools can see

:00:29.:00:32.

forward to future years, the sorts of budgets they will have given the

:00:32.:00:36.

role of children coming to the school. The second thing we've done

:00:36.:00:40.

is to the Academy programme. To encourage the devolution of more of

:00:40.:00:43.

the school budget to the school's director. I still think there's

:00:43.:00:53.
:00:53.:00:58.

Why was a motion to strengthen patient and public involvement in

:00:58.:01:02.

the new patient watchdog rejected by the government in the other

:01:02.:01:06.

place last night? We do want to see patients have a stronger voice in

:01:06.:01:12.

the NHS and we are about to debate in some length about how that is

:01:12.:01:16.

down. One of the most important ways will be making sure that the

:01:16.:01:21.

mandate of the NHS commissioning board has at its heart quality

:01:21.:01:26.

nursing and the voice of patience. We also need to look at how health

:01:26.:01:30.

watch is going to work to make sure it is truly independent and we have

:01:30.:01:34.

to understand that some of the ways we have tried to empower patients

:01:34.:01:39.

in the past always with good intentions, from governments of

:01:39.:01:44.

both sides, we have to listen to what Francis says when he says it

:01:44.:01:51.

just has not worked. With more women in work then ever before,

:01:51.:01:56.

with more men in work than ever before, with more jobs created in

:01:56.:02:01.

the private sector, with the Prime Minister not agree with me that the

:02:01.:02:05.

Chancellor's plan is not only working but the economy is

:02:05.:02:11.

beginning to turn the corner! think we should listen very

:02:11.:02:15.

carefully to what the Governor of the Bank of England said, who said

:02:15.:02:19.

of course growth is slower than we would like that the economy is

:02:19.:02:23.

moving in the right direction, the rebalancing is taking place, the

:02:23.:02:28.

things that need to be fixed in our economy in terms of bank lending

:02:28.:02:32.

and housing supply, they are being fixed. That is what the

:02:32.:02:37.

Government's is determined to do. One of my constituents has learned

:02:38.:02:43.

that when the bedroom tax is introduced, she will have �24 a

:02:43.:02:49.

week to live on. She is so anxious about how she is going to manage.

:02:49.:02:55.

She is having cognitive behaviour therapy. But her anxiety is totally

:02:55.:02:58.

understandable. Does the Prime Minister agree with me that those

:02:58.:03:03.

who should be receiving a cognitive behaviour therapy are the ones,

:03:03.:03:10.

namely his ministers, who think she could live on �24 a week! The party

:03:10.:03:14.

opposite does have to address the fact that for 13 years in

:03:14.:03:18.

government, they were perfectly content to have a housing benefit

:03:18.:03:22.

system for people who lived in private sector housing where there

:03:22.:03:26.

was no extra benefit for empty rooms and I cannot understand why

:03:27.:03:31.

they can't see it is unfair to have one all four people with the

:03:31.:03:35.

benefit of social housing and another rule for people in private

:03:35.:03:41.

housing. Week after week, Labour MPs come here opposing benefit

:03:41.:03:45.

changes and everything we do to deal with the mess they left and to

:03:45.:03:49.

fill in the deficit they left us and until they can learn they have

:03:49.:03:53.

to take some of the responsibility for the mess they left, no one will

:03:53.:04:00.

ever listen to them. Prime Minister's questions ends but

:04:00.:04:04.

we will stay here to hear the beginning of the Prime Minister's

:04:04.:04:11.

statement on the mid- Staffordshire Trust.

:04:11.:04:18.

Mr Speaker, I have a deep affection for our National Health Service. I

:04:18.:04:22.

will never forget all of the things that doctors and nurses have done

:04:22.:04:29.

for my family in times of real difficulty. I love my our NHS. I

:04:29.:04:34.

think it is a fantastic institution. It says a huge amount about our

:04:34.:04:39.

country. I always want to think the best of it and I have huge

:04:39.:04:42.

admiration for the doctors, nurses and health workers would dedicate

:04:42.:04:48.

their lives to caring for our loved ones, but we do them and the whole

:04:48.:04:51.

reputation of the NHS a grave disservice if we failed to speak

:04:51.:04:57.

out when things go wrong. What happened at the Mid-Staffordshire

:04:57.:05:02.

NHS Foundation Trust between 2005 and 2009 was not just roll, it was

:05:03.:05:09.

truly dreadful. -- not just roll. Hundreds of people suffered

:05:09.:05:14.

appalling neglect and mistreatment. Some patients was so desperate for

:05:14.:05:18.

water they were drinking from flower vases. Many were given the

:05:18.:05:25.

wrong medication and left to wet themselves and lie in their own

:05:25.:05:30.

urine for days. Relatives were ignored was met approached when

:05:30.:05:33.

they pointed out the most basic things that could have saved their

:05:33.:05:36.

loved ones from pain and death. We can only begin to imagine the

:05:37.:05:41.

suffering endured by those whose trust in the health service was

:05:41.:05:45.

betrayed at their most vulnerable moment. That is why I believe it is

:05:45.:05:51.

right to make the statement today. There was a Healthcare Commission

:05:51.:05:56.

investigation into 1009, the first independent inquiry in 2010, and

:05:56.:06:02.

long before that the testimony of bereaved relatives, like Cure The

:06:02.:06:08.

NHS and Julie Bailey, who laid bare the most unspeakable catalogue of

:06:08.:06:12.

failures at the Trust. Even after these reports, some really

:06:12.:06:16.

important questions remain unanswered. How were these

:06:16.:06:20.

appalling events allowed to happen? How were they allowed to continue

:06:20.:06:25.

for so long? Why were so many bereaved families and whistle-blow

:06:25.:06:30.

was ignored for so long? Could something like this happen again?

:06:30.:06:34.

Basic questions about wider failures in the system, not just at

:06:34.:06:39.

the hospital but right across the NHS, including its regulators and

:06:39.:06:43.

the Department of Health. That is why the families called for this

:06:43.:06:48.

public inquiry and that is why this government granted one and I am

:06:48.:06:52.

sure the House will want to join me in expressing thanks to Robert

:06:52.:06:57.

Francis and his team over the last three years. The inquiry finds that

:06:57.:07:01.

the appalling suffering at Stafford Hospital was primarily caught by a

:07:01.:07:06.

serious failure on behalf of the trust board, which failed to listen

:07:06.:07:10.

to patients and staff and failed to tackle an insidious negative

:07:10.:07:14.

culture involving a tolerance of poor standards and a disengagement

:07:14.:07:19.

from managerial and leadership responsibilities. But the inquiry

:07:19.:07:23.

finds that the failure went far wider. The Primary Care Trust

:07:23.:07:27.

assumed others were taking responsibility and made little

:07:27.:07:31.

attempt to collect proper information on the quality of care.

:07:31.:07:36.

The Strategic Health Authority was "to remote from the patients it was

:07:36.:07:40.

there to serve and failed to be sufficiently sensitive to signs

:07:40.:07:45.

that patients may be at risk". Regulators, including the then

:07:45.:07:50.

Healthcare Commission, failed to protect patients. Too many doctors

:07:50.:07:54.

kept their heads down instead of speaking out when things went wrong.

:07:55.:08:00.

The Royal College of Nursing was ineffective, both as a professional

:08:00.:08:03.

organisation and as a trade union. The Department of Health was too

:08:03.:08:08.

remote from the reality of the services that they oversee. The way

:08:08.:08:11.

Robert Francis chronicles the evidence of systemic failure means

:08:11.:08:15.

we cannot say with confidence that failings of care are limited to one

:08:15.:08:19.

hospital but let us also be clear about what the report does not say.

:08:19.:08:25.

France's does not claim any specific policy. -- France's. He

:08:25.:08:29.

does not blame the last Secretary of State for Health. He says we

:08:30.:08:33.

should not seek scapegoats. Looking beyond the specific failures that

:08:33.:08:38.

he does clearly catalogue, I believe you can identify three

:08:38.:08:44.

fundamental problems with the culture of our NHS. First, a focus

:08:44.:08:48.

on finance and figures at the expense of patient care. He says

:08:48.:08:53.

that explicitly. This was underpinned by a preoccupation with

:08:53.:08:58.

Anne Owers set of top-down targets, as you to the exclusion of patient

:08:58.:09:05.

safety -- with a set of Top Gun targets. Second, there was an

:09:05.:09:08.

attitude that patient care was always someone else's problem. In

:09:08.:09:14.

short, no one was accountable. He speaks about defensiveness and

:09:14.:09:19.

complacency. Instead of facing up to date to which should have

:09:19.:09:24.

employed a real cause for concern, Robert Francis finds that there is

:09:24.:09:27.

a culture of only explaining the positives rather than any critical

:09:27.:09:33.

analysis. Put simply, Mr Speaker... The Prime Minister making a

:09:33.:09:36.

statement on the Francis Report into the mid- Staffordshire

:09:36.:09:40.

Hospital Trust. Those who wish to see that in full can switch to be

:09:40.:09:44.

busy parliament and probably BBC News will run more of it and we

:09:44.:09:50.

have as well. He went through a catalogue of failures,

:09:50.:09:57.

institutional failures, that the inquiry identifiers. Above all it

:09:57.:10:04.

blames the Trust bought, for tolerance of poor standards. The

:10:04.:10:09.

Primary Care Trust and the strategic health authority, Monitor

:10:09.:10:15.

and other regulators, seeming to accept sub-standard care. The Royal

:10:15.:10:20.

College of Nursing is, described as ineffective. Add that together and

:10:20.:10:24.

you have what the Prime Minister and the report calls "systemic

:10:24.:10:30.

failure". I think David Cameron got to the essence of it when he said

:10:30.:10:35.

no one felt accountable. There was blurred lines of accountability and

:10:35.:10:39.

that one body thought another body was responsible and they thought

:10:39.:10:44.

somebody else was responsible. This has been a problem with the NHS all

:10:44.:10:49.

the way through. It was a problem to some extent with the Blairite

:10:49.:10:54.

reforms introduced by the previous Labour government in terms of, here

:10:54.:10:59.

is and national funded body but should politicians be responsible

:10:59.:11:05.

for the delivery of it? Not fully answered. That is not fully

:11:05.:11:10.

answered by the Andrew Lansley reforms. This is the problem. In

:11:10.:11:16.

PMQs, David Cameron says one of the other themes was we had been trying

:11:16.:11:19.

to empower patients and the mechanisms of empowerment simply

:11:19.:11:23.

have not worked. How you answer these things are massively

:11:23.:11:28.

complicated. But the problem is clear. It is a running theme, with

:11:28.:11:32.

the BBC, the police and all the other reason things. Who is

:11:32.:11:36.

accountable to whom? This is not clear enough in his publicly-funded

:11:36.:11:43.

services. It is a big, big political issue. Both this

:11:43.:11:47.

government and the last government have tried to empower patients but

:11:47.:11:53.

every time governments do, the Royal Colleges, the NHS elite,

:11:54.:11:58.

people with a vested interest, the NHS trade unions, they down every

:11:58.:12:03.

change as a threat? They claim any kind of private and market

:12:03.:12:09.

mechanism is the slippery road to a US-style private health system.

:12:09.:12:17.

These very elites, as this report has just adumbrated, they are at

:12:17.:12:24.

the centre of this. They failed. Patients in any event seemed to

:12:24.:12:28.

deferred to experts, especially if you are not articulate and July

:12:29.:12:32.

confidence. We had patients who were articulate and two were still

:12:33.:12:38.

ignored. But even staff felt there was a culture where they could not

:12:38.:12:43.

report for fear of reprisals. We have brought in legislation to

:12:43.:12:48.

protect whistleblowers but there is still a culture, staff lack the

:12:48.:12:52.

confidence to bring to management's attention some serious concerns

:12:52.:12:56.

they had. Will there be a change in public attitude as a result of

:12:56.:13:02.

this? When we stop fooling ourselves that the NHS is the envy

:13:02.:13:06.

of the world? A claim for which I have seen not a scintilla of

:13:06.:13:11.

evidence. Maybe the envy of the Third World. Not of the rest of

:13:11.:13:16.

Europe. Will we start to change our attitude, which my parents had, we

:13:16.:13:22.

are lucky to have it? And will we start demanding a lot more for the

:13:22.:13:27.

�2 billion a week we spent on it? week ought to do that but I do

:13:27.:13:31.

think you should be critical of the whole of the NHS. There are some

:13:31.:13:35.

excellent practices and parts of the NHS and if you are very

:13:35.:13:40.

seriously ill in this country you are with a better chance...

:13:40.:13:45.

Depending on hospital you get into. There were too many of these bodies,

:13:45.:13:49.

we can both agree on that politically, and nobody was in

:13:49.:13:54.

overall charge and the people felt it was going wrong were not able to

:13:54.:13:58.

do anything. We can try to give patients more information but the

:13:58.:14:02.

best answer to this is to empower the clinicians who are closest to

:14:02.:14:07.

the patients, the GPs, and from April onwards they will be able to

:14:07.:14:11.

say, we are no longer sending patients to that hospital. We are

:14:11.:14:16.

not happy with the cleanliness. We will send them to another hospital.

:14:16.:14:21.

That is fine, Michael. There is regulation for doctors and nurses,

:14:21.:14:27.

but what about the manager's? Who regulates them? Who is responsible

:14:27.:14:32.

for bad managers being sacked? We had a chief executive who is now

:14:32.:14:38.

running another energy as charity. That is the real issue. It is

:14:38.:14:41.

saying GPs hold the power and the commissioning staff and the

:14:41.:14:46.

budgets... There were too many managers. So systemic failure is

:14:46.:14:56.
:14:56.:15:00.

coming from the management in this They might not have known about

:15:00.:15:03.

what was going on in Stafford hospital. They might have continued

:15:04.:15:07.

sending patients there, which raises another huge issue. It's

:15:07.:15:13.

about information as to what's going on inside these institutions.

:15:13.:15:17.

Mike Farrow said earlier that this is absolutely key. The whole thing

:15:17.:15:21.

needs to be opened up. Whenever a light is shone on public funded

:15:21.:15:25.

institutions, you then get upgrades to urgency, we've got to reform

:15:25.:15:30.

this. And as to this broad political question. Where do we go

:15:30.:15:36.

from here in terms of major reform? It's my sense that Labour has no

:15:36.:15:40.

grand plan in the making for reforms of the NHS, they tried that

:15:40.:15:43.

when they were in power. The Conservatives, we saw what happened

:15:43.:15:47.

to them when they tried to reform it, they are not going to go there

:15:47.:15:53.

again either. I think there will be consensus that further change is

:15:53.:15:56.

required. There needs to be a debate on what form the change

:15:56.:16:00.

takes place in. The debate in Britain has been simplistic. Reform

:16:00.:16:04.

bursars and to reform, as if there's only one set of reforms

:16:04.:16:09.

that are acceptable or Status Quo. We've got to get beyond that, to

:16:09.:16:12.

have a much subtler and more intelligent play. There's a chance

:16:12.:16:22.
:16:22.:16:23.

of that happening in the light of these revelations. A sombre mood in

:16:23.:16:26.

the chamber for the Prime Minister's statement on the

:16:26.:16:28.

hospital and the report to date. It's not always like that. If you

:16:29.:16:31.

were watching the programme on Monday, you will have seen as

:16:31.:16:35.

talking about how loud it gets in the chamber during Prime Minister's

:16:35.:16:39.

Questions. The Speaker, John Bercow, has been complaining that its

:16:39.:16:44.

louder than a deep purple rock concert from the 1970s. But how

:16:44.:16:48.

loud is loud? If I start talking to you like this in a little whisper,

:16:48.:16:52.

then I'll be speaking at a level of 30 decibels. If I revert to my

:16:53.:16:59.

normal, loud, speech pattern, the decibel levels are around 60. But

:16:59.:17:03.

maybe it's a bit more. Prolonged exposure to noise levels above 85

:17:03.:17:10.

can cause damage to your hearing. If you are Maria Sharapova or...

:17:10.:17:15.

The undisputed queen of tennis grunts, she hits the scale at a

:17:15.:17:21.

massive 101 decibels. Watch out if you are the ballboy! A rock concert

:17:21.:17:26.

can be around 120 decibels. Two of the MPs they were talking to about

:17:26.:17:29.

noise in the chamber kindly agreed to take their mobile phones and

:17:29.:17:33.

iPad into the chamber, having downloaded and app that reads the

:17:33.:17:43.
:17:43.:17:48.

noise levels. The Conservative... How high to the reading go? It was

:17:48.:17:54.

quite disappointing. I got to about 94. But it was a very sombre, very

:17:55.:18:00.

subdued session. I don't think I've ever been to such a well-behaved

:18:00.:18:10.
:18:10.:18:12.

Prime Minister's Questions. Alan Cairns, did yours read any higher?

:18:12.:18:18.

I got 98 at the back. I think that came from the laughter on the

:18:18.:18:22.

question on Richard III. Because of the statement we were expecting and

:18:22.:18:26.

the seriousness of that, everyone was quite subdued. That was also

:18:26.:18:29.

after last night's vote, where there was some tension. People were

:18:29.:18:39.
:18:39.:18:40.

may be using it as a time to take stock. It's funny that you think

:18:40.:18:44.

that is quiet. I suppose half an hour once a week isn't going to do

:18:44.:18:54.

any damage, but 90 and 98 is still very loud. I stand by everything I

:18:54.:18:58.

said on Monday about it being awful, really bolstered on the whole it is

:18:58.:19:02.

extremely Walkers. It is just a Yelling match. It is not very

:19:02.:19:07.

attractive. I'm going to carry on taking this wonderful gadget in

:19:07.:19:11.

week after week, give it another couple of weeks and we will be

:19:11.:19:21.
:19:21.:19:23.

massively up. If it reaches 120 decibels, you are in deep purple

:19:23.:19:33.
:19:33.:19:34.

concerts territory. I'm sure that last week it did. Last week was

:19:34.:19:37.

probably the loudest I've experienced. I asked a question in

:19:37.:19:40.

it last week, and it is the most intimidating environment, where

:19:40.:19:44.

people are shouting as you are trying to concentrate and hold your

:19:44.:19:47.

own in terms of projecting your voice and remembering your words at

:19:47.:19:57.
:19:57.:20:01.

the same time. How can the grunting tennis player be as loud as a rock

:20:01.:20:11.
:20:11.:20:19.

concert? It is the pitch. It's the pitch at which she grants. It is

:20:19.:20:27.

incredibly noisy. Below the gangway on both sides is quite loud. It can

:20:27.:20:32.

be incredibly noisy. If you are asking questions, you literally

:20:32.:20:42.
:20:42.:20:43.

can't hear the questions are asked. I'm not so sure the opposite is a

:20:43.:20:53.
:20:53.:20:58.

good idea, it completely sterile Have you ever been told off by the

:20:58.:21:03.

Speaker for speaking out loud? By both of them! A miscarriage of

:21:03.:21:07.

justice. Millions of young people are priced

:21:07.:21:11.

out of buying a home on their own. Millions more are hoping house

:21:11.:21:16.

prices remain high to prevent a slide into negative equity. Ross

:21:16.:21:21.

Clark has been looking at this for his new book, in which he

:21:21.:21:31.
:21:31.:21:43.

emphasises how unprecedented the Houses like these in Mitcham, south

:21:43.:21:46.

London, enabled a million families to become homeowners in the great

:21:46.:21:51.

building boom between the two walls. When these houses behind me were

:21:51.:21:58.

built in the early 1930s, they cost between �315.530 pounds, which in

:21:58.:22:04.

today's money is between �18,000.30 �1,000. Yet one of these houses

:22:04.:22:12.

just down the road is now for sale for �335,000. And that is after a

:22:12.:22:15.

suppose it crash. House price inflation has made a fortune for

:22:15.:22:19.

some people but but others it has frustrated their dream of ever

:22:19.:22:23.

owning a home. Yet none of the political parties has any credible

:22:23.:22:26.

scheme for helping frustrated would-be homeowners. The

:22:26.:22:29.

coalition's says it wants to increase housebuilding by listening

:22:29.:22:33.

the planning system. We certainly need more houses, but that is only

:22:33.:22:43.
:22:43.:22:50.

This newly built two-bedroomed home is the equivalent of the 1930s

:22:50.:22:53.

homes just down the road. But the difference is that this property is

:22:53.:22:58.

quite likely to be bought as a speculative investment. We are

:22:59.:23:02.

returning to a Victorian social structure in which a large class of

:23:02.:23:10.

tenant's rent their homes from a small class of landlords. One

:23:10.:23:13.

solution could be to place restrictive covenants on most new

:23:13.:23:17.

homes, to say they could only ever be used as owner-occupied

:23:17.:23:20.

properties. People are actually going to live in them, they could

:23:20.:23:30.
:23:30.:23:34.

not be bought by speculators. Also, we could reduce the cost of

:23:34.:23:38.

building new homes by doing as post-war government did with the

:23:38.:23:42.

new towns. Compulsory purchase and development land at his land use

:23:42.:23:45.

valley, and in its planning permission and then selling it on

:23:45.:23:48.

to housebuilders at much lower prices than they currently have to

:23:48.:23:51.

pay for their land, taking just enough profit to pay for local

:23:51.:23:59.

infrastructure. Houses may never be as cheap again as they were 80

:23:59.:24:02.

years ago, but there's no reason why they cannot be a price which

:24:02.:24:06.

allows young people to do as they're great grandparents did,

:24:06.:24:10.

take the big step from tenants to homeowners.

:24:10.:24:16.

Ross Clark is with us now. Michael Fallon, home ownership has fallen

:24:17.:24:20.

for the first time since records began 60 years ago, Britain has the

:24:20.:24:23.

lowest rate of new home construction in almost a century -

:24:23.:24:27.

what are you doing about it? How many more homes have been built

:24:27.:24:35.

since 2010? Over 113,000 in the first year. We have plans for

:24:35.:24:38.

175,000 affordable homes. We've simplified the planning system, we

:24:38.:24:41.

are unlocking some of the rules that have prevented affordable

:24:41.:24:45.

housing being built, because these agreements were signed at the top

:24:45.:24:49.

of the boom when prices were much higher. We've got a Bill going

:24:49.:24:53.

through Parliament to unlock that now. You will see more houses being

:24:53.:24:57.

built. That is one side of it. are still not affordable for very

:24:57.:25:01.

many young people who cannot get the deposit to put down on buying a

:25:01.:25:05.

home. Do you agree with the assessment that there is now this

:25:05.:25:08.

generational gap between people who own their own homes and those who

:25:08.:25:12.

will never be able to own their own homes and will be tenants forever?

:25:12.:25:15.

That's too pessimistic. Some of the money we've made available through

:25:16.:25:18.

the funding for lending scheme is not getting through into the

:25:18.:25:22.

mortgage markets. I think you will find a better supply of mortgage

:25:22.:25:27.

finance coming through. I accept they've got to raise a higher

:25:27.:25:33.

deposit and perhaps our generation had to raise. Self-certified

:25:33.:25:37.

mortgages, some of those rules have been tightened. What do you do

:25:37.:25:40.

about house prices? Which government in its right mind is

:25:40.:25:44.

going to do anything to either freeze house prices where they are

:25:44.:25:48.

or bring them down? You can't control house prices. There are

:25:48.:25:52.

things you can do. The can increase supply. Michael, I hope you are

:25:52.:25:56.

right in relation to the figures to give but, frankly speaking, the

:25:56.:26:00.

experience of my constituency is very different than yours. I knock

:26:00.:26:04.

on doors where three generations are living in the same households,

:26:04.:26:09.

no prospect of getting up to �50,000 deposit required to buy a

:26:09.:26:14.

property in London. Our obsession with owner-occupiers is detracting

:26:14.:26:17.

from the fact there aren't enough properties to rent at affordable

:26:17.:26:21.

rates. Interest rates are low, so if you can't afford a mortgage with

:26:21.:26:26.

these interest rates and you can't afford to rent because of high

:26:26.:26:28.

rates of rent from private landlords, what are you going to

:26:28.:26:32.

do? Do you have any confidence that the situation will change

:26:32.:26:37.

dramatically? A Meikle talks about affordable housing. Affordable

:26:37.:26:42.

housing is a word which really refers to housing either for rent,

:26:42.:26:45.

for shared ownership, it's usually shared ownership property which

:26:45.:26:51.

gets the name affordable housing. I don't think people really want to

:26:51.:26:53.

buy half a house. When they set out on their career ladder, they want

:26:53.:27:01.

to buy a whole house not half a house. The point was made, does

:27:01.:27:04.

home-ownership matter? We've got this obsession with home ownership.

:27:04.:27:09.

This is an argument with turns to the advanced by people who already

:27:09.:27:12.

own their own property. It's not an argument I've ever heard for made

:27:12.:27:17.

by people in their 20s, trying to get on the housing ladder. These

:27:17.:27:21.

aren't benefit claimants, these are people in good jobs, well-paid jobs

:27:21.:27:24.

who 30 years ago would have had absolutely no problem in buying a

:27:24.:27:30.

property at all. One thing about buy-to-let, because you raised this

:27:30.:27:35.

issue about ending that sort of speculative market, which certainly

:27:35.:27:38.

boomed under Labour's time because capital gains tax came down. Would

:27:38.:27:43.

you back an option like that? buy-to-let market is reviving again

:27:43.:27:48.

now. A is that a good thing? yes, we do need people to build

:27:48.:27:53.

more properties. We are making it easier to change use, to convert

:27:53.:27:56.

from commercial premises or offices and to get that converted into

:27:56.:28:01.

housing. That is one of the answers in the very overcrowded and expense

:28:01.:28:06.

of inner-cities. A few people owning lots and lots of houses,

:28:06.:28:13.

some of our colleagues do that, but housing is affordable to all,

:28:13.:28:16.

whether to rent or own. The problem now is the supply side, it happens

:28:16.:28:21.

towards the end of our time in government... You can't sell off

:28:21.:28:28.

all the social housing... We are going to do Guess the Year. The

:28:28.:28:38.
:28:38.:28:42.

year was 1974. Let's see who has You win the Daily Politics mug.

:28:42.:28:47.

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