Browse content similar to 01/03/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Afternoon. Welcome to the Daily Politics. I hereby declare that | :00:47. | :00:51. | |
Michael Douglas Thornton is duly elected member of Parliament for | :00:51. | :00:55. | |
Eastleigh. Thank you. The Eastleigh is beastly for David Cameron, the | :00:55. | :00:58. | |
Liberal Democrats hold the constituency, the Conservatives are | :00:58. | :01:04. | |
pushed into a humiliating third place. UKIP come second recording | :01:04. | :01:07. | |
their best ever by-election performance picking up almost a | :01:07. | :01:11. | |
third of the vote and proving they are a serious threat to the | :01:12. | :01:17. | |
Conservativeings.. 6 There is no Southern Comfort for Ed Milliband | :01:17. | :01:21. | |
as Labour fails to increase its share of the vote, coming a poor | :01:21. | :01:26. | |
fourth. We will bring you the reaction to a vintage style by- | :01:26. | :01:34. | |
election. All that coming up, with us for the | :01:34. | :01:44. | |
:01:44. | :01:46. | ||
duration today, Gabby hins live, political editor at large. Andrew | :01:46. | :01:51. | |
Pierce, consultant editor at the Mail. Who consults you? I consult | :01:51. | :01:56. | |
the editor. To find out what to do? Yes. That is how you keep your job. | :01:56. | :02:00. | |
Welcome to the programme. It was the result David Cameron was dread, | :02:00. | :02:04. | |
there was a time only a few weeks ago when the Tories thought they | :02:04. | :02:08. | |
could win Eastleigh. They didn't. Worse, they came third. It the sort | :02:08. | :02:12. | |
of seat the Tories have to win if they are ever to win an overall | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
majority in the common, so this morning there was nothing left to | :02:15. | :02:21. | |
do, but to wheel out the brave face. It's a disappointing result for the | :02:21. | :02:25. | |
Conservative Party, but it is clear in mid-term by-election, people | :02:25. | :02:30. | |
want to register a protest, but I am confident that at the general | :02:30. | :02:34. | |
election we can bin these people -- win those people back bishop | :02:34. | :02:38. | |
demonstrating we are delivering for everyone who wants to work hard and | :02:38. | :02:41. | |
get on. We are devoting most of the programme to discussion of last | :02:41. | :02:44. | |
night's result. So for now one thought from both of you about the | :02:44. | :02:49. | |
significance. The moment for you? It is the moment we learned yet | :02:49. | :02:52. | |
again how much people hate mainstream politicians, not just | :02:52. | :02:56. | |
because you have the UKIP surge, people are fed up with both parties | :02:56. | :03:00. | |
of Government and opposition, how low an opinion of politicians do | :03:00. | :03:03. | |
you have to have that your local MP is headed to jail and that doesn't | :03:04. | :03:07. | |
put you off voting for the party? It is an interesting thought. Is it | :03:07. | :03:12. | |
going to be, as the Liberal Democrats would like it to be, lots, | :03:12. | :03:16. | |
hundreds of local by-elections, at the next general election, rather | :03:16. | :03:20. | |
than the national view? That is what they will hope. I suspect it | :03:20. | :03:24. | |
won't work like that, this was a classic Liberal Democrat victory. | :03:24. | :03:28. | |
For the Conservatives say it disaster, because they, it shows | :03:28. | :03:33. | |
they have massively failed to connect with their grass roots | :03:33. | :03:38. | |
supporter, their core supporters have been alienated by David | :03:38. | :03:43. | |
Cameron and they staid at home or voted for UKIP. UKIP pose a danger | :03:44. | :03:51. | |
to the Tory party as the SDP did to the Labour party. Not a great night | :03:51. | :03:56. | |
for Labour. You can't come fourth and that is a great night. A lot of | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
voters very fed up with the government, looking for someone to | :03:59. | :04:02. | |
blame. Looking for someone to register a protest and they didn't | :04:02. | :04:09. | |
choose Labour, that is worrying for Ed Miliband. You wouldn't want to | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
be Mill's strategist from last nights. Anyone's from last night. | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
There is no chance of that. Now, at the start of this campaign, as I | :04:17. | :04:22. | |
said the Tories thought they were in with a chance they threw the | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
kitchen sink into the constituency, but somehow the Tory campaign never | :04:26. | :04:31. | |
took off, what did take off was UKIP, which surged through taking | :04:31. | :04:36. | |
votes from the Liberal Democrats and from the Tories and after three | :04:36. | :04:40. | |
week, although not quite enough of a surge to win, it was enough to | :04:40. | :04:46. | |
throw the Tories into third place. Tell us more. Eastleigh son the | :04:46. | :04:49. | |
Conservative's list of target seats they must win in 2015 to form a | :04:49. | :04:54. | |
imagine si Government. Last night's by-election results make grim | :04:54. | :04:58. | |
reading for David Cameron. The qifrts optimistic at the start. | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
Liberal Democrat minister Chris Huhne vacated the seat after | :05:01. | :05:04. | |
pleading guilty to perverts the course of justice. The Liberal | :05:04. | :05:08. | |
Democrats have had consistently poor national poll ratings, then | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
the troubles surrounding former Liberal Democrat Chief Executive | :05:12. | :05:15. | |
Lord Rennard emerged. Despite these problems the Liberal Democrats held | :05:15. | :05:19. | |
the seat. Albeit with a much reduced majority. Not that Nick | :05:19. | :05:23. | |
Clegg will care today. Even more troubling for the Conservatives | :05:23. | :05:28. | |
though, is UKIP's performance. Nigel Farage's party finished | :05:28. | :05:33. | |
second, with 25% of the vote. Their biggest ever share in a by-election. | :05:33. | :05:37. | |
And they got 1,000 votes more than Maria Hutchings the Conservative | :05:37. | :05:44. | |
candidate who finished third. That was a result that we asked senior | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
Conservative backbench David day vabtsd on Wednesday's programme. | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
You come second or maybe terrible suggestion, third, I suggest you | :05:53. | :05:57. | |
again, crisis for Cameron? If we came third it would be a cry stha, | :05:57. | :06:03. | |
is the case, but, if it is a close second, with UKIP on our tail, it | :06:03. | :06:08. | |
will be uncomfortable. Let us be clear, this is not going to | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
dislodge David Cameron, he will be will to the next election, it will | :06:12. | :06:18. | |
make things more uncomfortable. we are joined by Anna Soubry. | :06:18. | :06:28. | |
Welcome to the programme. 2.20am March 1, 2013 all Tory hopes of an | :06:28. | :06:33. | |
overall imagine any the Commons died? You think so I think we all | :06:33. | :06:37. | |
have to get real about by-election, especially in a seat held by | :06:37. | :06:42. | |
Liberal Democrats, and for give me, I have fought two marginal seats so | :06:42. | :06:47. | |
I think I come at at it from a different perspectives. I know | :06:47. | :06:51. | |
about helping out. The Liberal Democrats, especially in a seat | :06:51. | :06:56. | |
like this where they have been for many year, they started off with, I | :06:56. | :07:00. | |
think almost every single borough kounslo, I know from my own | :07:00. | :07:03. | |
experience the huge power that gives you, when you that | :07:03. | :07:06. | |
entrenchment many your community, I know because I have fought marginal | :07:06. | :07:11. | |
seerbgts you need the when you are up against, in a marginal seat. | :07:11. | :07:16. | |
to get a majority you need to win 20 Eastleigh, they are all like | :07:16. | :07:20. | |
that, the last time. I don't think it saz simple as that. The last | :07:20. | :07:26. | |
time you won an overall majority it was Eastleigh. You have not won an | :07:26. | :07:30. | |
overall majority, you couldn't win it in a by-election. Can I explain | :07:30. | :07:34. | |
why. When you are fighting Liberal Democrats who are well entrenched | :07:34. | :07:39. | |
who operate in a way that is Admiral, you can't knock their | :07:39. | :07:44. | |
machinery, when you are up against that, especially when you have a | :07:44. | :07:46. | |
very sensible, home-grown candidate like they had, I am not saying the | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
others weren't very good. All the candidates were very good, the | :07:50. | :07:54. | |
quality, apart from Labour's but that is me making a quick sharp | :07:54. | :07:59. | |
point. It is not that sharp. It is not that clever, really. They | :07:59. | :08:02. | |
selected an outstandingly good candidate for them and what they | :08:03. | :08:08. | |
needed to do and they pulled it off. Privately, because you don't say it | :08:08. | :08:11. | |
publicly at the start of a campaigns privately we knew it | :08:11. | :08:14. | |
would be almost impossible, not withstanding the circumstances of | :08:14. | :08:18. | |
the by-election, to win it, because we know how well entrenched they | :08:18. | :08:21. | |
have been in that constituency over decades now. So let us get this | :08:21. | :08:25. | |
right. You always thought you couldn't win the constituency, even | :08:25. | :08:29. | |
though this was a by-election being fought as a result of the sitting | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
Liberal Democrat MP... Going to prison. Probably going to prorpbgs | :08:33. | :08:39. | |
and then a sex scandal, being a Liberal Democrat... I didn't know | :08:39. | :08:42. | |
that. A sex scandal which became a crisis of the leadership for Mr | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
Clegg, and you still couldn't win. Because you have to understand, as | :08:46. | :08:51. | |
I am sure you do, a number of factor, one yor, you have the | :08:51. | :08:53. | |
Liberal Democrat factors secondly you have the by-election factors | :08:53. | :08:58. | |
and I thought some of the points Michael Gove made on the Today | :08:58. | :09:01. | |
programme were absolutely on the money, got it absolutely right. | :09:01. | :09:05. | |
About an increasing number of the electorate, ordinary people who are | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
fed up with all of us, and you have the protest vote, which you always | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
get in by-election, that used to go to the liberals, which is why they | :09:13. | :09:17. | |
are successful, going to UKIP, for reasons I can understand, then you | :09:17. | :09:21. | |
have got to factor in the fact that the Liberal Democrats held almost | :09:21. | :09:24. | |
every single seat on the borough Cowen sism I am, this isn't a | :09:24. | :09:28. | |
criticism, why would you know this? Unless you have fought a marginal | :09:28. | :09:32. | |
seat as I have done, unless you understand how those seats work, | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
and the importance of good local councillor, you can't understand | :09:35. | :09:40. | |
why you get the results like Eastleigh. You are right. We | :09:40. | :09:45. | |
haven't fought a marginal see. It maybe important but on this result | :09:45. | :09:53. | |
are toast. This is a majority... toast? I Amor than well aware of my | :09:53. | :09:57. | |
slender majority, I understand why it is the small numbers it S I | :09:57. | :10:01. | |
fought an encumbent, one of the great things that came out of the | :10:01. | :10:06. | |
2010 election was an of the power of that. My brilliant colleague | :10:06. | :10:11. | |
Jessica Leigh, I won't try to put her down, got a fantastic result | :10:11. | :10:17. | |
and a fantastic swing. One of the reasons that she did so well, as | :10:17. | :10:22. | |
did Mark, I can't remember his name, Mark Spencer in Sherwood, they | :10:22. | :10:28. | |
weren't standing against incumbents, if you speak to Mark, if Paddy | :10:28. | :10:32. | |
Tipping, if the Labour endumb bent had stood like mine, Mark would be | :10:32. | :10:37. | |
the first to say Paddy would have won. You saw it where Vernon Coaker | :10:37. | :10:43. | |
did stand... Are you going to mention any names we haven't heard | :10:43. | :10:48. | |
of? It is good bluster but let us get to the chase. I want to ask you | :10:48. | :10:53. | |
a question. You have had a good say, you are not going to filibuster | :10:53. | :10:57. | |
your way out, your election strategy, your party's election | :10:57. | :11:02. | |
strategy involves winning 20 seats like Eastleigh to get an overall | :11:02. | :11:05. | |
majority. Forgive me I think we have a Liberal Democrat list and a | :11:05. | :11:09. | |
marginal. Everything you have just said, about not winning Eastleigh | :11:09. | :11:13. | |
is why you will not win the other Liberal Democrat seats as well, | :11:13. | :11:17. | |
therefore you get no overall majority. The point I was going to | :11:17. | :11:21. | |
make, I think we have a list of Liberal Democrat seats swre, a | :11:21. | :11:25. | |
target Liberal Democrat seat list and a target Labour Tory marginal | :11:25. | :11:29. | |
list and one that is overall. I am not sure where Eastleigh is on that. | :11:30. | :11:34. | |
16 on both. On the combined or on the Liberal Democrat? 16 you have | :11:34. | :11:40. | |
to win from the Liberal Democrats. When you drill down into it. We do | :11:40. | :11:42. | |
do that, we look at the personalities, especially in | :11:42. | :11:48. | |
Liberal Democrat seats. You need to win the 20 to have any chance of an | :11:48. | :11:53. | |
overall majority.. I agree with you in your analysis, when you factor | :11:53. | :11:57. | |
in the by-election, then, it takes on a tote, you take it out of | :11:57. | :12:03. | |
context, that is what I am trying to say. You couldn't win it at a | :12:03. | :12:06. | |
tpwhrebgshurpbgs you can't win it at a by-election, you can't win. I | :12:06. | :12:12. | |
would suggest to you, that you have no chance, no chance of winning | :12:12. | :12:17. | |
Eastleigh in the 2015 general election. You might be right, | :12:17. | :12:21. | |
because it is a Liberal Democrat seat. It is one you have targeted | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
that you need the win. Yes, but then as we also know as you go into | :12:25. | :12:29. | |
a general election, the complexities of a general election | :12:29. | :12:34. | |
change almost from one constituency to another because of this | :12:34. | :12:42. | |
encumbency factors I would say to all kphenta to, and you heard them | :12:42. | :12:46. | |
talking about the encumbency project, where they understand and | :12:46. | :12:50. | |
recognise the huge power now of that, you saw that in the borough | :12:50. | :12:54. | |
council elections as well. Forgive me, I hate to say it, everything | :12:54. | :12:57. | |
you say, it means it is Mission Impossible to dislodge 20 Liberal | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
Democrats to give you an overall majority, in that is the case, what | :13:01. | :13:07. | |
is Mr Cameron perceived as such a loser? I don't believe he is. | :13:07. | :13:12. | |
has never won an election. Hang on, forgive me, I will not sense and | :13:12. | :13:18. | |
will not allow it, you are entitled to say it, but you are wrong, | :13:18. | :13:21. | |
fundamentally wrong. I am wrong he has never won an election? | :13:21. | :13:25. | |
suggest that the backbenchers do not support the Prime Minister is | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
wrong. Really? There maybe some that don't but the over | :13:29. | :13:35. | |
Westminstering majority of MPs in the Parliamentary party... You are | :13:35. | :13:38. | |
so divided, you wouldn't appear with Mark Pritchard. No, I have | :13:38. | :13:43. | |
never, no, I have never ever gone blue on blue, and anybody will tell | :13:43. | :13:49. | |
you the same thing as well. None of us will do it. Because you are | :13:49. | :13:55. | |
divided? It is not good for the party a divide party never wins the | :13:55. | :14:00. | |
respect of an electorate. wouldn't do it is a signal of howdy | :14:00. | :14:05. | |
vieded you are. It has never been any different in the way I will | :14:05. | :14:09. | |
operate, I will not do blue on blue. You can have the final word. I | :14:10. | :14:13. | |
presume we are giving up on winning Liberal Democrat seats at all. The | :14:13. | :14:17. | |
logic if you can't win a seat with a Liberal Democrat, you can't win a | :14:17. | :14:22. | |
seat with an incumbent you will end up with the same number of seats. | :14:22. | :14:25. | |
On Tuesday, there was an opinion poll in one of the papers putting | :14:25. | :14:30. | |
the Liberal Democrats on 8%, the lowest ever they have ever had | :14:30. | :14:40. | |
:14:40. | :14:44. | ||
nationally. And yet still they You have played a straight bat and | :14:45. | :14:48. | |
England may be calling on you to open the batting. In England is not | :14:48. | :14:52. | |
that desperate! I thought we were doing well in the cricket. England | :14:52. | :14:56. | |
is doing well, unlike the Conservatives. | :14:56. | :15:01. | |
We are joined now by Ben page of the polling firm Ipsos MORI. How | :15:01. | :15:07. | |
great was that win for the Liberal Democrats? As Andrew Pierce said, | :15:07. | :15:13. | |
they were polling badly nationally. Yes. Most pollsters, including me, | :15:13. | :15:16. | |
believed the Liberal Democrats would do much better than their | :15:16. | :15:21. | |
current rating in the national polls for a general election, | :15:21. | :15:24. | |
partly because of their incumbency and also because the Liberal | :15:24. | :15:28. | |
Democrats, when it comes to a fight, are ferocious. They did of course | :15:28. | :15:34. | |
lose a lot of share in this vote, but given the size of their | :15:34. | :15:39. | |
majority, he enough to hang on. They got 23% of the vote in 2010. | :15:39. | :15:47. | |
It will go down, but not to 9%. It might go down to 16%. This seems to | :15:48. | :15:54. | |
confirm that theory. It is not brilliant news for them. They lost | :15:54. | :15:58. | |
14% of the vote -- if they lost 14% of the vote in many other seats, | :15:58. | :16:03. | |
there would be out. But it is much worse for David Cameron, and Ed | :16:03. | :16:09. | |
Miliband might have hoped to do better. By what about you could? | :16:09. | :16:13. | |
They did not win the seat, but they will no doubt say they were the | :16:13. | :16:16. | |
winners of the night. They were certainly the surprise of the night. | :16:16. | :16:21. | |
I was not expecting them to do quite so well. 1000 more than the | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
Conservatives. They are still an unknown quantity. They are not | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
winning lots of councillors in local elections. They are almost | :16:29. | :16:33. | |
like the Liberal Democrats used to be, the people you can vote for in | :16:33. | :16:36. | |
by-elections because it will not make much difference. They | :16:36. | :16:41. | |
represent a constituency in British politics, which is people who are | :16:41. | :16:45. | |
fed up. Their boat is very concerned about things like | :16:45. | :16:49. | |
immigration. They tend to be older. There is a whole range of people | :16:49. | :16:54. | |
out there, but those they most threaten our of course David | :16:54. | :17:00. | |
Cameron and his chance of a Conservative majority in 2015. | :17:00. | :17:04. | |
damaging is it for David Cameron? Again, with by-elections, you need | :17:04. | :17:08. | |
to be careful about making generalisations. It is more | :17:08. | :17:11. | |
problematic for David Cameron in terms of party management. This | :17:11. | :17:14. | |
will be crying out to many people on the right of his party, there | :17:14. | :17:21. | |
will say, if only you had tacked right, things would be better. But | :17:21. | :17:25. | |
Cameron's brigade will say, we tribe that in 2005 with Michael | :17:25. | :17:29. | |
Howard and it did not work. The Conservatives may become divided as | :17:29. | :17:33. | |
they try to read the runes of this, but it was a by-election. | :17:34. | :17:37. | |
Labour MP said it was a disaster for Labour. In it certainly was not | :17:37. | :17:41. | |
good news. This was not ever going to be a Labour seat, but Ed | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
Miliband should have been hoping the One nation message was somehow | :17:45. | :17:50. | |
cutting through. John O'Farrell is a great comedian. Whether he is the | :17:50. | :17:53. | |
right candidate for this type of seat is another matter. But this is | :17:53. | :17:58. | |
not brilliant news for Labour, who think they are surging back into | :17:58. | :18:01. | |
middle England. They do need to be there. | :18:01. | :18:04. | |
We are joined now by a Tory backbencher Mark Pritchard. What | :18:04. | :18:08. | |
mood are you in this morning? Are you going to tell us what you | :18:08. | :18:12. | |
really think, or have you swallowed a loyal to Bill? Well, it is | :18:12. | :18:17. | |
clearly a disappointing result, but it is the mid-term blues, by- | :18:17. | :18:21. | |
elections are unpredictable and many of us always thought this | :18:21. | :18:25. | |
would be a difficult by-election to win. So the loyalty pill has kicked | :18:25. | :18:31. | |
in. I am one of the most loyal Tory backbenchers. It just happens that | :18:31. | :18:38. | |
on the EU referendum and the Budget, I disagree with the Prime Minister. | :18:38. | :18:41. | |
David Davies told the Daily Politics that if the Tories came | :18:41. | :18:46. | |
third, it would be a crisis for Mr Cameron. Do you agree? I don't | :18:46. | :18:50. | |
think it is a crisis. This is a difficult period for the | :18:50. | :18:57. | |
Conservative Party. I don't think this result, extrapolated to the | :18:57. | :19:01. | |
general election, will necessarily be the same. We are making progress | :19:01. | :19:04. | |
on education and welfare reforms and deficit reduction. On | :19:04. | :19:07. | |
immigration, we have had excellent numbers over the last few days, | :19:07. | :19:11. | |
perhaps not in time for this by- election. If we continue to make | :19:11. | :19:17. | |
progress on those issues, people will see that we are a party that | :19:17. | :19:22. | |
can deliver and hopefully deliver more if we have an outright | :19:22. | :19:26. | |
Conservative majority. But prior to the by-election, Your leader came | :19:26. | :19:32. | |
out front in out referendum. He moved to appease the Euro-sceptic | :19:32. | :19:37. | |
wing of his party. You chose a Euro-sceptic candidate, someone who | :19:37. | :19:40. | |
said she would vote to leave unless a lot of powers were repatriated. | :19:40. | :19:47. | |
Much good it did you. Well, UKIP are now the natural party of | :19:47. | :19:53. | |
protest. The Liberal Democrats have lost that crown. There are | :19:53. | :20:00. | |
challenges ahead. But once the message off our welfare reforms, | :20:00. | :20:06. | |
education reforms, making progress on immigration, ones that get out | :20:06. | :20:10. | |
over the next two and a half years, people will look again. One good | :20:10. | :20:14. | |
thing is that people will hopefully now begin to scrutinise what you | :20:14. | :20:19. | |
could stand for. If you look at their manifesto, they are pretty | :20:19. | :20:27. | |
much offering champagne all round. They want tax cuts for everybody. I | :20:27. | :20:33. | |
don't say we should not learn lessons from this, but it is more | :20:33. | :20:37. | |
of a political tremor rather than an earthquake. The but it is a | :20:37. | :20:41. | |
problem for you, because if you really want to leave the European | :20:41. | :20:45. | |
Union, you vote UKIP. If you want a tough line on immigration, you vote | :20:45. | :20:50. | |
UKIP. If you are against gay marriage, you vote UKIP. If you are | :20:50. | :20:55. | |
in favour of grammar schools, you vote UKIP. You don't vote Tory. | :20:55. | :21:00. | |
That is the lesson of Eastleigh. The Prime Minister is the first | :21:00. | :21:04. | |
British Prime Minister to offer an in-out referendum on the European | :21:04. | :21:10. | |
Union. That is a significant step. Those people who are Euro-sceptic | :21:10. | :21:18. | |
within UKIP don't want to see a pro European, someone who is against a | :21:18. | :21:22. | |
referendum, against giving the people a choice, against taking | :21:22. | :21:26. | |
back British sovereignty. That person is Ed Miliband. The real | :21:26. | :21:31. | |
problem on Europe is for the Labour Party. We are the and the party of | :21:31. | :21:36. | |
potential government that can offer an in-out referendum. The Labour | :21:36. | :21:40. | |
Party are not offering that. If people want to vote UKIP and | :21:40. | :21:42. | |
getting a pro-European Ed Miliband as prime minister, they are | :21:43. | :21:49. | |
entitled to. The at given that you could's appeal is on more than just | :21:49. | :21:54. | |
Europe - back UKIP's appeal is on more than just Europe, it is on the | :21:54. | :21:57. | |
other issues I mentioned. The centre-left vote was split in the | :21:57. | :22:01. | |
'80s between the Social Democrats and the Labour Party, giving your | :22:01. | :22:05. | |
party over a decade of large majorities. You are now split on | :22:05. | :22:10. | |
the right, with a strong party on the right picking off your right | :22:11. | :22:15. | |
wing flank and splitting the centre-right vote. That is why we | :22:15. | :22:20. | |
need to make the case for lower immigration and set out our message. | :22:20. | :22:28. | |
The figures are down from 247,000 the year before last. What about | :22:28. | :22:33. | |
the Romanians and Bulgarians? hope to have a backbench business | :22:33. | :22:38. | |
debate on this issue. Their controls end at the end of December | :22:38. | :22:48. | |
:22:48. | :22:49. | ||
this year. Those policies need to be realistic and achievable. The | :22:50. | :22:59. | |
:23:00. | :23:01. | ||
Prime Minister is chairing a cross- party group on this. There is a | :23:01. | :23:07. | |
weakness in what Mark is saying. It is very easy for UKIP in the by- | :23:07. | :23:13. | |
election. The Government will not say how many Romanians and | :23:13. | :23:15. | |
Bulgarians they think will come into Britain next year. Ministers | :23:15. | :23:20. | |
refused to answer the question. UKIP can then say, if you vote for | :23:20. | :23:24. | |
us, none of them will come in, because we will take Britain out of | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
the European Union. Labour were saying this morning as well that | :23:28. | :23:32. | |
they need to address immigration more seriously. They say that after | :23:32. | :23:38. | |
every by-election. The only people with a clear answer to this are | :23:38. | :23:43. | |
UKIP, whether you agree or disagree. They say, we will not be in the | :23:43. | :23:48. | |
union, so we will control our borders. I am not sure if every | :23:48. | :23:52. | |
party can move to where you could is. A but you cannot stop the | :23:52. | :23:55. | |
Romanians and Bulgarians. They have a right to come to this country | :23:55. | :24:00. | |
under the rules of the EU, just as we have a right to go there. You | :24:00. | :24:05. | |
can't change that. I would like to see control of our borders. That | :24:05. | :24:09. | |
does not mean we shut the borders to everybody. We need a sensible | :24:09. | :24:14. | |
immigration system. But you can't do that as a member of the EU. | :24:14. | :24:18. | |
is why I am pleased we are having an in-out referendum in 2018. | :24:18. | :24:24. | |
late. They will all be here! agree. And they could be a huge | :24:25. | :24:30. | |
asset, just like the Poles who came. Five years is too long to wait to | :24:30. | :24:34. | |
can -- to take control of our borders. You would like a | :24:34. | :24:40. | |
referendum soon know? Absolutely. Keep taking the pills. | :24:40. | :24:43. | |
Now, let's turn to the big winners from last night, although they did | :24:43. | :24:48. | |
not win the seat. UKIP leader Nigel Farage joins me now from Eastleigh. | :24:48. | :24:52. | |
It was an impressive performance, but as the Liberal Democrat | :24:52. | :24:58. | |
President has said, you did not win. It was an average second. It was | :24:58. | :25:02. | |
quite an impressive second, really. A very short by-election, called | :25:02. | :25:06. | |
with three weeks' notice, very sudden. We did not have time to get | :25:06. | :25:12. | |
to the postal voters, and still we went from 3.6% to 28% of the vote. | :25:12. | :25:16. | |
That is a significant surge by anybody's standards. The three | :25:16. | :25:20. | |
other parties are absolutely stunned by it, but it is because we | :25:20. | :25:23. | |
are connecting with ordinary families. They can see the impact | :25:23. | :25:27. | |
open-door immigration has had on jobs and housing in constituencies | :25:27. | :25:31. | |
like this. All the rubbish we have heard in the last week from Cameron | :25:31. | :25:35. | |
and everybody else that they will get tough, the fact is that if we | :25:35. | :25:40. | |
want to control our borders, we cannot do that as members of the | :25:40. | :25:44. | |
European Union. I think that penny has dropped with the electors of | :25:44. | :25:49. | |
Eastleigh. But you still did not win. There is no UKIP MP. When is | :25:49. | :25:57. | |
there going to be one? We have just had our best ever by-election | :25:57. | :26:02. | |
result. We have run the Liberal Democrats close. On the day | :26:02. | :26:06. | |
yesterday, we actually won. In terms of the people who voted on | :26:06. | :26:10. | |
polling day, we did not have the ability to reach the postal voters. | :26:10. | :26:15. | |
But never again can people say UKIP is a wasted vote. Never can people | :26:15. | :26:20. | |
say we are splitting the vote. And never can people say that somehow, | :26:20. | :26:24. | |
UKIP can't win, because we came ever so close to winning in this | :26:24. | :26:29. | |
by-election. In by-elections to come, we will achieve victories. | :26:29. | :26:33. | |
This is not just some mid-term protest, this is a clear trend. We | :26:33. | :26:38. | |
have seen it in by-elections in Barnsley, Middlesbrough, Rotherham | :26:38. | :26:42. | |
and now here. Isn't it a protest vote? You took votes from all the | :26:42. | :26:47. | |
parties, not just the Conservatives. That would be classic protest | :26:47. | :26:51. | |
politics. You took votes from the Liberal Democrats and Labour, too. | :26:51. | :26:55. | |
When it comes to the general election, the line from the Tories | :26:55. | :27:01. | |
will be simply that a vote for UKIP will give the seat to Labour. | :27:01. | :27:04. | |
Conservatives in a general election will vote Conservative. But no one | :27:05. | :27:09. | |
will believe that. This Tory idea that you could just takes votes | :27:09. | :27:13. | |
from the Tory party is rubbish. One of the most significant sections of | :27:13. | :27:17. | |
people voting for us yesterday were people in Eastleigh who had not | :27:17. | :27:20. | |
voted for anybody for 20 or 30 years, and they voted UKIP | :27:20. | :27:26. | |
yesterday. That is a vote by people saying, I like what this party says. | :27:26. | :27:30. | |
They have the guts to stand up and campaign on tough issues while | :27:30. | :27:35. | |
everybody else tries to push it under the carpet. Are you the new | :27:35. | :27:42. | |
Liberal Democrats in terms of winning by-elections in the future? | :27:42. | :27:47. | |
Over the last two years, we have gone from getting 2% in by- | :27:47. | :27:56. | |
elections to 15% to 20% and now loony 30%. -- nearly 30%. Nobody in | :27:56. | :27:59. | |
Westminster was to recognise it. There is a closed shop in British | :28:00. | :28:05. | |
politics amongst the parties, the media and the public companies, but | :28:05. | :28:10. | |
something will is happening. People are going out and vote in UKIP, and | :28:10. | :28:15. | |
I believe that trend will continue. Judge me on May 3rd. We have the | :28:15. | :28:25. | |
English council elections coming up on 2nd May. Judge me on 3rd May. | :28:25. | :28:29. | |
That will be an important test, because you have not won lots of | :28:29. | :28:32. | |
council seats in the past. You have said to me yourself, you have not | :28:32. | :28:39. | |
got that local base, so it will be a big test. Very much so. When the | :28:39. | :28:44. | |
Liberal Democrats were winning by- elections in the '90s, they had | :28:44. | :28:49. | |
already built up a base at district and county council level. We have | :28:49. | :28:53. | |
not done that yet, and to have come as close as we did to winning | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
without a single councillor in Eastleigh makes that score last | :28:56. | :29:02. | |
night even more remarkable. We have to make breakthroughs Indies may | :29:03. | :29:06. | |
county council elections. UKIP already has a candidate for every | :29:06. | :29:11. | |
seat. We have the European elections coming up in June 2014. | :29:11. | :29:15. | |
If what happened last night was a tremor in British politics, next | :29:15. | :29:25. | |
:29:25. | :29:32. | ||
year in the European elections, we Do you regretted not standing? | :29:32. | :29:36. | |
I don't. Firstly we had an excellent candidate. If I had stood | :29:36. | :29:41. | |
and done well, you would have said this just reinforces the fact UKIP | :29:41. | :29:45. | |
is a one man party. No-one is going to say that any more. Thirdly, as | :29:45. | :29:49. | |
leader, I want to be a candidate that leads the party into the | :29:49. | :29:52. | |
European elections next year, because I believe we have a | :29:52. | :29:56. | |
realistic chance of topping the poll, across the United Kingdom. | :29:56. | :30:02. | |
Gabby, do you want to ask anything? .If you don't come top, can we | :30:02. | :30:06. | |
conclude you are a busting flush? If we come second, nationally, | :30:06. | :30:11. | |
indeed as we did back in 2009, I would be disappointed. Not to have | :30:11. | :30:15. | |
won. Listen, I am not contemplating that, I think we can really do it | :30:16. | :30:19. | |
next year, because vague promises at referendum in five years' time, | :30:19. | :30:24. | |
or whatever it may be, simply isn't good enough. I think the fact that | :30:24. | :30:28. | |
on January 1st next year we are opening our door, unconditionally | :30:28. | :30:33. | |
to 29 million poor people from Romania and bull -- Bulgaria, it is | :30:33. | :30:38. | |
something most people say enough is enough it is time we got control | :30:38. | :30:42. | |
back op of our borders and our country. What did you drink to | :30:42. | :30:50. | |
celebrate? Sadly, not enough! I didn't get back to the hotel until | :30:50. | :30:55. | |
4.00 and I was doing my first television interview at 6.20, but I | :30:55. | :30:59. | |
intend, now, after this interview, to go and catch up. I feel so sorry | :30:59. | :31:09. | |
for you, what a tough night it has been. Go and celebrate. He won't be | :31:09. | :31:12. | |
seen until Monday now. I don't think all 29 million are going to | :31:12. | :31:18. | |
come. A lot might come but I don't think 29 million. I may be wrong | :31:18. | :31:22. | |
but I don't think so. One of the reasons that the Liberal Democrats | :31:22. | :31:25. | |
are pretty cock-a-hoop this morning is not just they won, but they won | :31:25. | :31:30. | |
even though it has been a pretty torrid ten days for them in the | :31:30. | :31:35. | |
run-up to last night's vote, so no surprise, it was a mightly relieved | :31:35. | :31:38. | |
Nick Clegg who appeared at a victory rally in Eastleigh this | :31:38. | :31:44. | |
morning. This has been a by- election we have had to fight, in | :31:44. | :31:47. | |
exceptionally difficult circumstances. Our opponents have | :31:47. | :31:52. | |
thrown everything at us. We held our nerve, we stood our ground, we | :31:52. | :31:58. | |
worked as a team, we went out and campaigned on every doorstep, we | :31:58. | :32:07. | |
overcame the odds and won a stunning victory. And we are joined | :32:07. | :32:10. | |
by the Liberal Democrat whip in the House of Lords Dick Newby. Welcome | :32:10. | :32:16. | |
to the Daily Politics. Now you won the seat, impressive victory, many | :32:16. | :32:20. | |
think, but of course your share of the vote dropped more than the | :32:20. | :32:26. | |
Conservative share of the vote dropped. Would you put that down to | :32:26. | :32:30. | |
the Chris Rennard controversy or the Chris Huhne confrov? I think | :32:30. | :32:34. | |
there were a number of head wind we were battling, a governing party at | :32:34. | :32:39. | |
this point when the economy is not doing well, is going to be in | :32:39. | :32:44. | |
difficulties. The Chris Huhne con-- controversy lost us some votes and | :32:44. | :32:47. | |
no doubt the Chris Rennard controversy lost us some more, I | :32:47. | :32:50. | |
think if you had asked virtually anybody yesterday, Liberal Democrat | :32:51. | :32:54. | |
or anybody else, would we win by over 1700 votes they would have | :32:54. | :32:59. | |
said no. You exceeded your expectations you think? It exceeded | :32:59. | :33:03. | |
mine, having been done in Eastleigh. Was there any time in the campaign | :33:03. | :33:09. | |
when you thought, this might be going bad for us? I think the, the | :33:09. | :33:13. | |
thing that slightly surprised and worried me about Eastleigh was the | :33:13. | :33:18. | |
way in which people, for whatever reason, had a difficulty with the | :33:18. | :33:21. | |
Liberal Democrats, whether it was about Chris huerpbgs as one person | :33:21. | :33:24. | |
had, or it was about the economy, which another person had, they had | :33:24. | :33:28. | |
decided that they were going to -- Chris Huhne, they were going to | :33:28. | :33:32. | |
vote a protest vote and they all vote one way, they vote for UKIP. | :33:32. | :33:35. | |
One of the interesting things to me, is that none of them voted Labour. | :33:35. | :33:42. | |
As far as I can tell. They all vote UKIP. Not very many. Not many | :33:42. | :33:47. | |
Liberal Democrats went to Labour. UKIP did pick up people who were | :33:47. | :33:49. | |
dissatisfied about anything. And it was obviously an impressive | :33:49. | :33:56. | |
performance, but that was my concern. Looking back, the two main | :33:56. | :33:59. | |
features of the campaign, one was the Tory campaign never seemed to | :33:59. | :34:03. | |
take off. They began in a good position, then it got worse for | :34:03. | :34:08. | |
them. What did take off, and gathered momentum as it went was | :34:08. | :34:14. | |
UKIP. It became a surge, some senior Liberal Democrats who were | :34:14. | :34:17. | |
down campaigning there said the real, the wise thing the Liberal | :34:17. | :34:20. | |
Democrats did was having this on the 28th. Having a short campaign f | :34:20. | :34:24. | |
this had been on for another week the UKIP surge could have been big | :34:24. | :34:31. | |
enough to win. I don't know. I mean, the UKIP did have a surges but | :34:31. | :34:34. | |
equally, UKIP weren't exposed to the kind of debate and scrutiny | :34:34. | :34:40. | |
they would have been if people had been anticipating a UKIP surge, so | :34:40. | :34:45. | |
they, at one level had an easy ride, but equally they had momentum going, | :34:45. | :34:51. | |
as you know, in by-elections, momentum can often be very | :34:51. | :34:54. | |
significant over a very short period. One way or another. I think | :34:54. | :34:58. | |
we could have pulled it back and had a better result, but equally, | :34:58. | :35:03. | |
it is very volatile times. Americans in primary campaigning | :35:03. | :35:09. | |
call it is big Mo. We have been the Ben officialry of it in the past. | :35:09. | :35:13. | |
If you go back to a by-election like Darlington, some time ago, we | :35:13. | :35:16. | |
have been the losers when we started fauf a strong position and | :35:16. | :35:22. | |
the surge has worked against us, for us, the great relief is we | :35:22. | :35:28. | |
fought the by-election on local strength and national competence. A | :35:28. | :35:30. | |
very significant proportion of people went with that, despite the | :35:31. | :35:35. | |
head wind we have been talking about. Where does this leave | :35:35. | :35:40. | |
relations inside the coalition, does it on the one hand reassure | :35:40. | :35:44. | |
Liberal Democrats that they can stay in the coalition and still win | :35:44. | :35:49. | |
and don't face a wipe out, is that the view now, or is there some | :35:49. | :35:55. | |
resentment that Tory allied in the press, made all the running they | :35:55. | :35:59. | |
could, probably encouraged behind the scenes by Tories, to make it as | :35:59. | :36:03. | |
grim as possible for Mr Clegg, in the middle of the Chris Rennard | :36:03. | :36:06. | |
crisis? The way that the press have behaved is completely predictable, | :36:06. | :36:11. | |
so we are not going to be phased by the fact that the Daily Mail | :36:11. | :36:15. | |
behaves like the Daily Mail. Relations in the coalition are good, | :36:15. | :36:19. | |
I am involved in making it work in the House of Lords. It has not | :36:19. | :36:23. | |
always been that good as Tam Strathclyde told news the House of | :36:23. | :36:29. | |
Lords. Within and between parties, there are arguments and | :36:29. | :36:31. | |
disagreements... Is there some resentment at the way some Liberal | :36:32. | :36:36. | |
Democrats have said to us, they felt the story -- Tories were | :36:36. | :36:43. | |
whipping up the row over Chris Rennard, and pinning it on Mr Clegg. | :36:43. | :36:47. | |
I don't think, so because I think we think, or I think, that it | :36:47. | :36:51. | |
wasn't the Tory high command whipping it up, it were a small | :36:51. | :36:56. | |
number of newspapers who were using it, explicitly in some case, to try | :36:56. | :37:01. | |
and stop the Leveson proposals going through. They said it in | :37:01. | :37:05. | |
their... We have that newspaper here, the Daily Mail. I would like | :37:05. | :37:10. | |
to point out, this story broke on Channel 4, the Guardian newspaper | :37:10. | :37:13. | |
if you like of the airwaves. They continue to make a lot of head way | :37:13. | :37:17. | |
on that story, and more and more of these women came for warned talked | :37:17. | :37:20. | |
to newspapers. I know Nick Clegg thinks it is not the job of the | :37:20. | :37:30. | |
:37:30. | :37:31. | ||
I think it is our job that and we will continue to do so. Whether it | :37:31. | :37:37. | |
is Tory, liberal or Labour. We have a properly appointed detective | :37:37. | :37:41. | |
looking at it. If it was left to you it wouldn't have. The women | :37:41. | :37:45. | |
involved decided to go to the police. It happened because they | :37:45. | :37:51. | |
decided to go to press because they had gone to your party and got no | :37:51. | :37:55. | |
satisfaction. A number of the women who have come forward hadn't gone | :37:55. | :38:00. | |
to the party. A number have and didn't get any satisfaction that is | :38:00. | :38:03. | |
why we have set in place an investigation and why the police | :38:03. | :38:09. | |
are looking at it. Gabby?. I wonder how you think this will affect | :38:09. | :38:13. | |
coalition relations in another way. The Tories are under pressure to | :38:13. | :38:17. | |
move towards UKIP, move towards European immigration, do you think | :38:17. | :38:20. | |
that will put strain on the coalition in a different way, you | :38:20. | :38:26. | |
will find yourselves pulling in a direction you don't want to go? | :38:26. | :38:30. | |
They cause stresses and strains but both sides went into it for five | :38:30. | :38:34. | |
years to sort out the economic mess, there are stresses and strans and | :38:34. | :38:41. | |
that is what we will attempt to do, as best we can. Were you aware of | :38:41. | :38:45. | |
the years of the accusations of being made against Chris Rennard? | :38:45. | :38:49. | |
was not aware of any specific allegation about Chris Rennard, | :38:49. | :38:55. | |
until very very recently. What about general accusations of his | :38:55. | :38:59. | |
behaviour? Well, there are, there are rumours about most people in | :38:59. | :39:04. | |
politics, in my experience, and most of them, proved to be | :39:04. | :39:09. | |
unfounded. I never was aware of any serious allegations against Chris | :39:09. | :39:14. | |
Rennard, until recently. You had heard of rumours of his behaviour? | :39:14. | :39:20. | |
There was some about. Turned out to be more than scuttle butt. Neither | :39:20. | :39:24. | |
I or most people, if not virtually everyone were wear of the exact | :39:24. | :39:28. | |
nature of the complaints against Chris. I wasn't. Do you regretture | :39:28. | :39:31. | |
partyty did not do more at the time snfpblts I think it should have | :39:31. | :39:40. | |
done, more, yes. -- done more, yes. One party appears to be trying to | :39:40. | :39:45. | |
lie low, but what does last night's result mean for Labour? Their | :39:45. | :39:49. | |
celebrity candidate John O'Farrell finished fourth, with just over | :39:49. | :39:52. | |
4,000 votes and just under 10% vote share, while the combined | :39:52. | :39:57. | |
Conservative and Liberal Democrat share of the vote fell by 28%, | :39:57. | :40:01. | |
Labour were hardly the beneficiaries. Their share of the | :40:01. | :40:05. | |
vote increased by just 0.2%. Speaking earlier, Labour leader Ed | :40:05. | :40:10. | |
Miliband said it was disappointing for Labour. 6 I would have | :40:10. | :40:13. | |
preferred to get more votes than we did. This was going to be a tough | :40:13. | :40:19. | |
fight for Labour. It's a seat we have never won, but all it convince | :40:19. | :40:23. | |
me of is we need to redouble or evidents to reach out to every part | :40:23. | :40:28. | |
of the country, including areas where Labour hasn't been strong. | :40:28. | :40:32. | |
This us with a disastrous night for the Conservatives and David Cameron. | :40:32. | :40:35. | |
What we want to hear is a recognition people are deeply | :40:35. | :40:38. | |
unhappy the direction of the country and he is going to listen. | :40:38. | :40:41. | |
Labour leader Ed Milliband. We asked the Labour Party for an | :40:41. | :40:45. | |
interview and we have been busy all morning, we can vouch for that | :40:45. | :40:49. | |
asking MPs to come on to the programme. Must have been through | :40:49. | :40:53. | |
every one of them, none were available. Sorry about that. Not | :40:53. | :40:59. | |
even Diane Abbott? No, it seems. Gabby, the question that I would | :40:59. | :41:03. | |
have put to Labour s that if you have had a fall in the combined | :41:03. | :41:06. | |
share of the vote of Liberal Democrats and Conservatives of 28%, | :41:06. | :41:10. | |
and as the Labour Party, you increase your vote share by 0.2%, | :41:11. | :41:17. | |
something has the gone wrong.Ly my best to answer this, yes, it is | :41:17. | :41:20. | |
a disaster, I don't think, I don't think the Labour Party can take any | :41:20. | :41:24. | |
comfort from this result at all, so much for one nation Labour, really. | :41:24. | :41:34. | |
:41:34. | :41:35. | ||
. They were going to be squeezed but they didn't have to be squeezed | :41:35. | :41:45. | |
:41:45. | :41:47. | ||
that far, Labour has to be careful That badly when it comes to the | :41:47. | :41:53. | |
crunch something is wrong, that lead is as soft as marshmallow. | :41:53. | :41:56. | |
we had been focuses on what the Conservatives have to do to win an | :41:56. | :41:59. | |
overall imaginety, Eastleigh would have been a target seat, Labour has | :42:00. | :42:03. | |
to make inroads into southern heartlands, it can't rely on | :42:03. | :42:09. | |
increasing its vote share, in seats its already has. It is right. There | :42:09. | :42:13. | |
is no progress at all. I think John O'Farrell was the wrong candidate, | :42:13. | :42:17. | |
for various reason, he unravelled rather some stuff he had written | :42:17. | :42:22. | |
about Margaret Thatcher, he wish she had died in The Brighton Bomb | :42:22. | :42:26. | |
and he didn't think Britain shouldn't have won the Falklands | :42:26. | :42:30. | |
war. A lot of the task force ships set sail from Southampton, so he | :42:30. | :42:34. | |
was a bad candidate, still, the Labour message is not playing on | :42:34. | :42:38. | |
the doorstep, and Labour MPs, I saw a couple last night. They said they | :42:38. | :42:41. | |
heard they would be in fourth, they were unhappy about it. And the | :42:41. | :42:45. | |
record on the economy, is that still the problem, is that | :42:45. | :42:48. | |
narrative playing with the electorate from David Cameron and | :42:48. | :42:52. | |
George Osborne swag are blaming Labour for what happened? You get a | :42:52. | :42:57. | |
sense Michael Gove said he thought the primary reason for Tory voertsd | :42:57. | :43:00. | |
going was feeling very squeeze, skint, annoyed with Government and | :43:00. | :43:06. | |
the ve, in which case why don't they move to party complaining | :43:06. | :43:10. | |
about austerity. The fact they didn't people think the previous | :43:10. | :43:13. | |
Government screwed up the economy and they voted for the only people | :43:13. | :43:17. | |
who haven't had a chance to screw it up yet, that suggestings people | :43:17. | :43:22. | |
have not forgiven and moved on. you think they didn't try hard | :43:22. | :43:26. | |
enough, Labour, was there is a sense of let us let the internal | :43:26. | :43:29. | |
grief between the coalition partners play out John O'Farrell, | :43:29. | :43:34. | |
right, wrong candidate? We don't care. I think they fought and that | :43:34. | :43:39. | |
is why Ed Miliband went. They threw a lot at it and put John O'Farrell | :43:39. | :43:45. | |
everywhere, no, they wanted to do well there. Is it not likely, that | :43:45. | :43:50. | |
in a general election, Labour would do better in the south and although | :43:50. | :43:57. | |
they wouldn't pick up seats like Eastleigh, they could, I Anna | :43:57. | :44:03. | |
Soubry said... They can't take her seat. They are likely to do better. | :44:03. | :44:08. | |
Eastleigh is not a good guide. It is an unusual Liberal Democrat held | :44:08. | :44:11. | |
marginal. Their main worry is taking seats off for fli, that they | :44:11. | :44:15. | |
should do better than in Eastleigh. It is not a complete guide but it | :44:15. | :44:20. | |
should worry them none the Les. is that one nation Labour going | :44:20. | :44:24. | |
down, did anybody quote that to you? I don't recall hearing it. I | :44:24. | :44:28. | |
think lit go the same way as David Cameron's big society. Does anybody | :44:28. | :44:31. | |
mention that any more. Haven't heard it for a whie. Isn't the | :44:31. | :44:37. | |
Daily Mail not one of the losers? It is the biggest read newspaper in | :44:37. | :44:40. | |
the Eastleigh constituency. You have the biggest circulation of any | :44:40. | :44:45. | |
daily newspaper and you ran day after day, against Mr Clegg, on the | :44:45. | :44:49. | |
front-page, and they still won. don't think we are a loser at all. | :44:49. | :44:55. | |
I think the voters in Eastleigh ig nored the noise off and decided | :44:55. | :44:58. | |
they would vote on local issue, they are good at it, the Liberal | :44:59. | :45:02. | |
Democrats, Anna Soubry had a good point. I think if we had our time | :45:02. | :45:05. | |
again the Mail would have done it again. Nick Clegg behaved badly in | :45:05. | :45:15. | |
:45:15. | :45:19. | ||
So, an exciting by-election in Eastleigh last night, but where | :45:19. | :45:24. | |
does it fit into the pantheon in this country - not all countries | :45:24. | :45:29. | |
have by-elections, but this country has by-elections, and we have had | :45:29. | :45:32. | |
many great by-elections in the past. As we say at the Oscars, this film | :45:32. | :45:37. | |
contains flash photography. So say bye-bye, Eastleigh by- | :45:37. | :45:41. | |
election, because it is not pie-in- the-sky to say you will miss it. | :45:41. | :45:45. | |
You see, these are isolated political contests, soaring outside | :45:45. | :45:49. | |
the confines of the general election cycle, can make, briefly, | :45:49. | :45:53. | |
a tiny place you had never heard of funds will -- characters you had | :45:53. | :45:58. | |
never seen before front page news. They can test the political waters, | :45:58. | :46:03. | |
signal a sea change and hand you the unexpected. Sceptical? Let me | :46:03. | :46:13. | |
:46:13. | :46:13. | ||
refresh your memories. From sheer surprise, Orpington in Kent, a | :46:13. | :46:18. | |
safely won Conservative seat in 1959, a by-election in 1962 saw a | :46:18. | :46:23. | |
massive 22% swing to the Liberals, who had been down-and-out in 1951 | :46:23. | :46:28. | |
at 2.5% of the vote. Not bad for Eric Lubbock, a local councillor | :46:28. | :46:33. | |
who was only the candidate after the Liberal who had stood in 1959 | :46:33. | :46:36. | |
was forced to step aside after admitting bigamy. Orpington man | :46:36. | :46:41. | |
would not have approved. Baroness today, Shirley Williams back in | :46:41. | :46:46. | |
1981 took Crosby with a similar Shockwave as the SDP, newly-founded, | :46:46. | :46:51. | |
found it had an MP. There is not a single safe seat left in the | :46:51. | :46:56. | |
country. A higher mark for the SDP, but nine years later in brutal | :46:56. | :47:01. | |
after a merger of the Liberals and most SDP members as the Lib Dems, | :47:01. | :47:05. | |
those who had stayed separate had a nasty shock as the News of the time | :47:05. | :47:10. | |
pointed out. The other fragments of speech after the Lions who | :47:10. | :47:14. | |
disagreed with the merger were represented in Bootle. | :47:14. | :47:17. | |
The Liberal least avoiding the indignity suffered by the SDP, who | :47:17. | :47:21. | |
were beaten by the Monster Raving Loony Party. Screaming Lord Sutch | :47:21. | :47:25. | |
immediately offered an electoral pact to the SDP. One of the biggest | :47:25. | :47:30. | |
swings in by-election history was Bermondsey in 1983, won by Lib Dem | :47:30. | :47:34. | |
Simon Hughes against Labour's Peter Tatchell, a fight that has become | :47:34. | :47:38. | |
as famous for the controversial nature of the campaign as for the | :47:38. | :47:43. | |
margin of victory. The tragedy of this election is | :47:43. | :47:48. | |
that prejudice and bigotry triumphed over tolerance and | :47:48. | :47:54. | |
compassion, and smears and lies triumphed over truth and reason. | :47:54. | :47:58. | |
has not been a dirty campaign as far as we are concerned. We fought | :47:58. | :48:01. | |
a straight campaign from the beginning on the same issues before | :48:01. | :48:07. | |
they chose their candidate. In 2008, Labour activists in Crewe and | :48:07. | :48:11. | |
Nantwich, defending the seat held for so long by the late and | :48:11. | :48:14. | |
formidable Gwyneth Dunwoody, struck up a jolly wheeze to paint the | :48:14. | :48:19. | |
Conservative as rather posh. Most observers now suggest that it | :48:19. | :48:23. | |
helped boot the well heeled Timson into Parliament and signalled what | :48:23. | :48:30. | |
was to come for Gordon Brown. have sent a message, loud and clear, | :48:30. | :48:36. | |
that Gordon Brown just does not get it. Firmly enough, posh did come | :48:36. | :48:39. | |
back as a campaign tactic after David Cameron got into power. But | :48:39. | :48:44. | |
in Bradford West, they were never going to win. It was Labour | :48:44. | :48:47. | |
territory and most strategists assured us that Labour would hold, | :48:47. | :48:54. | |
which is why Labour were a bit surprised by this. This, the most | :48:54. | :49:01. | |
sensational result in British by- election history, bar none, | :49:01. | :49:08. | |
represents the Bradford spring. This is an uprising. | :49:08. | :49:11. | |
George Galloway, ending their report dramatically. | :49:11. | :49:16. | |
Now, is the BBC too wasteful? Some politicians think it is and one | :49:16. | :49:20. | |
Conservative MP is introducing a bill to make the BBC publish any | :49:20. | :49:24. | |
invoice over �500 and hand over all its accounts to an independent body. | :49:24. | :49:28. | |
In a moment, we will speak to Alun Cairns about his private member's | :49:28. | :49:32. | |
bill. First, let's look at how a lack of information from the BBC | :49:32. | :49:35. | |
has frustrated some MPs on the Public Accounts Committee back in | :49:35. | :49:39. | |
November. I hope he will understand why this | :49:39. | :49:43. | |
exchange is unsatisfactory. Many of the questions I am asking you, we | :49:43. | :49:46. | |
would already have the answers to if the National Audit Office were | :49:46. | :49:52. | |
able to operate the way been -- the way they normally operate. We would | :49:52. | :49:56. | |
have understood all this and be further ahead. I understand your | :49:56. | :50:03. | |
frustration. Good, because we have been trying to make this point. | :50:03. | :50:07. | |
understand the frustrations and to do with the weight things operate | :50:07. | :50:12. | |
for everyone. It is what it is, and I have to work within that. I am | :50:12. | :50:16. | |
trying to be as helpful as I can be. I am happy to go on as long as you | :50:16. | :50:21. | |
need me here. The problem is that we can't ask the right questions, | :50:21. | :50:25. | |
because we don't have the right data on which to base those | :50:25. | :50:29. | |
questions. I come back to the conflict of interest. You are in | :50:29. | :50:36. | |
essence the deal-maker, the regulator, and you are also | :50:36. | :50:40. | |
controlling both information. That seems a conflict of interest. | :50:40. | :50:45. | |
have had this discussion many times. Actually, it is down to Parliament | :50:45. | :50:47. | |
to decide it does not want to have a royal charter arrangement with | :50:47. | :50:53. | |
the BBC. It is in your control to change the arrangements, not mine. | :50:53. | :50:57. | |
Let's speak to Alun Cairns about his bill tackling accountability in | :50:57. | :51:01. | |
the BBC. What do you want to know? You will recall that after the | :51:01. | :51:04. | |
change of government in 2010, all local authorities were expected to | :51:04. | :51:09. | |
publish every invoice in excess of �500. That has changed habits | :51:09. | :51:13. | |
within local authorities across the UK. I want the same to happen to | :51:13. | :51:18. | |
the BBC. But is the BBC like a local authority? The BBC spends | :51:18. | :51:23. | |
public money. The licence fee is the greatest regressive tax in the | :51:23. | :51:27. | |
UK. It raises �3 billion, and we have a right to know where it is | :51:27. | :51:31. | |
being spent. Many examples have been exposed by the Daily Mail and | :51:31. | :51:37. | |
other papers, where maybe 170 staff are sent to cover US presidential | :51:37. | :51:43. | |
elections. Fortunes are spent on accommodation or taxi fares or | :51:43. | :51:48. | |
hospitality or retirement parties. We have a right to know how much is | :51:48. | :51:51. | |
being spent. The BBC would say it fully complies with public | :51:51. | :51:57. | |
procurement rules. It does appear before select committees on a | :51:57. | :52:03. | |
regular basis. Talent pay is published annually. Critics would | :52:03. | :52:08. | |
say you are just trying to pick at the BBC here. And not at all. BBC | :52:08. | :52:12. | |
journalists rightly scrutinised the expenditure of every MP, local | :52:12. | :52:16. | |
authorities and departments of government. It is right that that | :52:16. | :52:20. | |
is done. But I also think the public have a right to scrutinise | :52:20. | :52:27. | |
public money, �3 billion of it, and to establish where the waste is. It | :52:27. | :52:37. | |
:52:37. | :52:38. | ||
would help the BBC. There is an expectation from the public to | :52:38. | :52:47. | |
analyse, and I am doing this as a friend of the BBC. Good to know! In | :52:47. | :52:52. | |
terms of what you are trying to gain from this waste that use | :52:52. | :52:57. | |
exists in the BBC, what are you looking to cut out? How much do you | :52:57. | :53:01. | |
think the BBC is wasting? That is precisely the point, because we | :53:01. | :53:06. | |
don't know and will not know until the data is published. Then we can | :53:06. | :53:10. | |
make an informed choice. At the moment, we are left to make a | :53:10. | :53:14. | |
judgement about 170 staff going to cover presidential elections. That | :53:14. | :53:19. | |
may or may not be the right number. We also have competition sometimes | :53:19. | :53:23. | |
between journalists, where they will not share resources when they | :53:23. | :53:28. | |
could. If we see every invoice in excess of �500, we can make a | :53:28. | :53:31. | |
judgment and that might concentrate the mind more among the BBC | :53:31. | :53:36. | |
managers. Do you accept that the BBC does operate in a predominantly | :53:36. | :53:40. | |
commercial sector? It could be placed at a competitive | :53:40. | :53:44. | |
disadvantage with commercial rivals if they had to publish everything | :53:44. | :53:49. | |
over �500. They obviously negotiate deals which could be better value | :53:49. | :53:53. | |
for the taxpayer. I think transparency would drive that | :53:53. | :53:58. | |
further, where by a competitor who could provide a similar service | :53:58. | :54:02. | |
could see how much was being paid and say, I could undercut that. It | :54:02. | :54:05. | |
is standard practice to be transparent these days, and the BBC | :54:05. | :54:08. | |
is the only organisation that is not transparent as other | :54:08. | :54:11. | |
departments off. A bit not be expensive and bureaucratic to | :54:11. | :54:17. | |
publish every invoice over �500? local authority did it on a | :54:17. | :54:22. | |
voluntary basis and it has changed the habits and save them an awful | :54:22. | :54:25. | |
lot of money. Before, they travelled first class. Now they | :54:25. | :54:30. | |
think, does it need to be that way? Before they take a taxi, they | :54:30. | :54:37. | |
question the way they go about business. Do you think, as a | :54:37. | :54:41. | |
journalist, would you like to know? I am sure it would be fascinating | :54:41. | :54:49. | |
to sift through every �502 invoice. No. You would end up with a lot of | :54:49. | :54:52. | |
invoices for �499.99. Secondly, what would shock me about BBC | :54:52. | :54:57. | |
spending would not be those kinds of numbers. It is when you pay | :54:57. | :55:00. | |
people six figures to leave the BBC. It is the huge pay-offs, the amount | :55:01. | :55:08. | |
of money spent on every on-air talent. Obviously, the amount spent | :55:08. | :55:14. | |
on you, Andrew, would not shock me. A BBC talent issue is brought. | :55:14. | :55:16. | |
Viewers would accept that BBC talent are the main presenters and | :55:16. | :55:21. | |
so on, but it goes beyond that. And because that is not subject to | :55:21. | :55:31. | |
:55:31. | :55:34. | ||
transparency rules, it is something they can hide. It does not go far | :55:34. | :55:39. | |
enough. Auditing is the second part of the bill. The BBC is the only | :55:39. | :55:42. | |
public sector organisation that sets the terms of investigation by | :55:42. | :55:45. | |
the National Audit Office. If any other government department wanted | :55:45. | :55:54. | |
to do that, journalists would rightly complaining. We are purring | :55:54. | :55:58. | |
with pleasure and the Daily Mail. We think this is a tremendous idea. | :55:58. | :56:08. | |
:56:08. | :56:10. | ||
Tell me something I don't know! wonder if we can find out how many | :56:10. | :56:13. | |
people the BBC employees. If you put the question to them, they | :56:13. | :56:21. | |
can't tell you. I around 24,000, I think. We don't know, that is the | :56:21. | :56:24. | |
point. The BBC needs to accept standards where the public sector | :56:24. | :56:27. | |
is expected to be transparent so that people can make their own | :56:27. | :56:31. | |
judgment. There might not be inefficient expenditure, but we | :56:31. | :56:39. | |
simply don't know. Alun Cairns, you are a friend of the BBC's(!). | :56:39. | :56:47. | |
Here are my invoices for over �500 from 2012. I am impressed. That now | :56:47. | :56:51. | |
satisfies me that there is no waste on the part of Andrew Neil. But you | :56:51. | :56:58. | |
have not seen mine. Now, anyone remember political life | :56:58. | :57:04. | |
before last night's by-election? I don't know. Here is the rest of the | :57:04. | :57:13. | |
week's political news in 60 seconds. To play - not a Scousers saying | :57:13. | :57:17. | |
hello, it is the credit rating the UK used to have until the ratings | :57:17. | :57:21. | |
agency Moody's downgraded us. The Chancellor said it was proved his | :57:21. | :57:26. | |
economic strategy is working - eh? The allegation of harassment | :57:26. | :57:29. | |
against Lib Dem Lord Rennard, who has always denied it, turned into a | :57:29. | :57:33. | |
leadership crisis for Nick Clegg, when he struggled to explain what | :57:33. | :57:39. | |
he knew, when. These concerns about Lord Rennard's inappropriate | :57:39. | :57:43. | |
behaviour were circulating at the time. And we found out who will | :57:43. | :57:48. | |
form the next government of Italy - no one. Everyone got a few votes, | :57:49. | :57:53. | |
but the star was comedian cum politician Beppe Grillo. Finally to | :57:53. | :57:55. | |
City Hall, where procedural shenanigans led to Boris Johnson | :57:55. | :57:58. | |
almost being checked out of a committee meeting. The mayor was | :57:58. | :58:04. | |
his usual understated self. Are you saying they haven't the guts to put | :58:04. | :58:14. | |
:58:14. | :58:15. | ||
questions to me? Supine invertebrate jellies. | :58:15. | :58:20. | |
He is the Beppe Grillo of British politics. We have run out of time. | :58:20. | :58:26. | |
Thanks to both of you for being our guests of the day. The One O'clock | :58:26. | :58:31. | |
News is starting on BBC One. More on the fall-out from the Eastleigh | :58:31. | :58:35. | |
by-election. I will be back on BBC One on Sunday with The Sunday | :58:35. | :58:41. |