05/03/2013 Daily Politics

good afternoon and welcome to the good afternoon and welcome to the

Daily Politics. Should the chief Daily Politics. Should the chief

Daily Politics. Should the chief Daily Politics. Should the chief

executive of the NHS quit over the executive of the NHS quit over the

executive of the NHS quit over the failings by Mid Staffordshire trust?

failings by Mid Staffordshire trust? Beleaguered health boss David

Beleaguered health boss David Beleaguered health boss David

Nicholson appeared in front of the Nicholson appeared in front of the

Nicholson appeared in front of the health select committee this morning

health select committee this morning health select committee this morning

to answer questions on where to answer questions on where

to answer questions on where responsibility lies. We will have

the latest. the latest.

the latest. the latest.

A new report for the Labour Party A new report for the Labour Party

A new report for the Labour Party says British business is too focused

says British business is too focused on short-term rewards.

on short-term rewards. on short-term rewards.

on short-term rewards. Ten years on, how did the Iraq war

Ten years on, how did the Iraq war change the world?

change the world? change the world?

And dramatic scenes from the whip's And dramatic scenes from the whip's

And dramatic scenes from the whip's office as a former Labour minister

office as a former Labour minister meets her onstage self.

meets her onstage self. meets her onstage self.

meets her onstage self. All that in the next hour. With us

All that in the next hour. With us All that in the next hour. With us

for the whole program today is for the whole program today is

for the whole program today is Baroness Neuberger. She sits as a

Baroness Neuberger. She sits as a Baroness Neuberger. She sits as a

crossbench peer in the House of crossbench peer in the House of

crossbench peer in the House of Lords, having previously taken the

Lords, having previously taken the Lords, having previously taken the

Lords, having previously taken the Lib Dem whip until she became senior

Lib Dem whip until she became senior Lib Dem whip until she became senior

rabbi to the west London Synagogue rabbi to the west London Synagogue

rabbi to the west London Synagogue in 2011. First today, health league

in 2011. First today, health league in 2011. First today, health league

tables published by the Lancet tables published by the Lancet

tables published by the Lancet magazine show the UK is lagging

magazine show the UK is lagging magazine show the UK is lagging

behind similar countries on a range behind similar countries on a range

behind similar countries on a range of health indicators. But expect to

of health indicators. But expect to of health indicators. But expect to

of health indicators. But expect to see has gone up, but people in 21

see has gone up, but people in 21 see has gone up, but people in 21

other countries live longer and other countries live longer and

other countries live longer and healthier lives in Britain is. The

healthier lives in Britain is. The report author, Professor John

report author, Professor John report author, Professor John

report author, Professor John Newton, has said people need to pay

Newton, has said people need to pay Newton, has said people need to pay

more attention to their lifestyles. more attention to their lifestyles.

more attention to their lifestyles. more attention to their lifestyles.

There are three areas where we need There are three areas where we need

There are three areas where we need There are three areas where we need

to look. One is that the Health to look. One is that the Health

to look. One is that the Health Authority -- the Health authorities

Authority -- the Health authorities Authority -- the Health authorities

like the NHS. Then there is like the NHS. Then there is

like the NHS. Then there is like the NHS. Then there is

ourselves, but in between there is a ourselves, but in between there is a

range of organisations, businesses range of organisations, businesses

and public authorities that and public authorities that

and public authorities that and public authorities that

influence the way we live, and they influence the way we live, and they

influence the way we live, and they influence the way we live, and they

have to do things, too. All of those have to do things, too. All of those

have to do things, too. All of those together add up to a healthier

together add up to a healthier country. Baroness Neuberger, after

country. Baroness Neuberger, after country. Baroness Neuberger, after

country. Baroness Neuberger, after ten years or so of real terms rises

ten years or so of real terms rises ten years or so of real terms rises

in health spending, why are we in health spending, why are we

in health spending, why are we lagging behind so many other

lagging behind so many other lagging behind so many other

lagging behind so many other nations? There are a lot of reasons

nations? There are a lot of reasons nations? There are a lot of reasons

nations? There are a lot of reasons for that. I could bang on about this

for that. I could bang on about this for that. I could bang on about this

for about, having once been chief for about, having once been chief

for about, having once been chief for about, having once been chief

executive of the kids fund. Has it executive of the kids fund. Has it

executive of the kids fund. Has it executive of the kids fund. Has it

been a waste of money? No. Firstly, been a waste of money? No. Firstly,

been a waste of money? No. Firstly, been a waste of money? No. Firstly,

we need to look at where the money we need to look at where the money

we need to look at where the money went and what the productivity ratio

went and what the productivity ratio went and what the productivity ratio

is. There is interesting data coming is. There is interesting data coming

is. There is interesting data coming is. There is interesting data coming

out from the Nuffield trust on that, out from the Nuffield trust on that,

out from the Nuffield trust on that, out from the Nuffield trust on that,

looking at what we do with the looking at what we do with the

looking at what we do with the money. Secondly, it takes decades to

money. Secondly, it takes decades to money. Secondly, it takes decades to

money. Secondly, it takes decades to change things. It is only in the

change things. It is only in the change things. It is only in the

change things. It is only in the last decade that we have had this

last decade that we have had this last decade that we have had this

extra investment. People forget that extra investment. People forget that

extra investment. People forget that extra investment. People forget that

extra investment. People forget that if you want to see a real change in

if you want to see a real change in if you want to see a real change in

mortality and morbidity, you have to mortality and morbidity, you have to

mortality and morbidity, you have to mortality and morbidity, you have to

look at a 25 to 30 year cycle. look at a 25 to 30 year cycle.

look at a 25 to 30 year cycle. Increased spending over the last ten

Increased spending over the last ten Increased spending over the last ten

Increased spending over the last ten years will not show a great deal.

years will not show a great deal. years will not show a great deal.

Thirdly, it is about public health Thirdly, it is about public health

Thirdly, it is about public health Thirdly, it is about public health

and the lack of concentration on it. and the lack of concentration on it.

and the lack of concentration on it. and the lack of concentration on it.

We talk about our Secretary of State We talk about our Secretary of State

We talk about our Secretary of State for health as being the person

for health as being the person for health as being the person

responsible for the health service. responsible for the health service.

responsible for the health service. Actually, the secretary of state for

Actually, the secretary of state for Actually, the secretary of state for

Actually, the secretary of state for health ought to be the Secretary of

health ought to be the Secretary of health ought to be the Secretary of

State for the nation's health and State for the nation's health and

State for the nation's health and State for the nation's health and

the emphasis ought to be more on the emphasis ought to be more on

the emphasis ought to be more on prevention. That is partly about

prevention. That is partly about prevention. That is partly about

lifestyle and partly about women lifestyle and partly about women

lifestyle and partly about women policy which encourage us to do

policy which encourage us to do policy which encourage us to do

something differently. There is a something differently. There is a

something differently. There is a sense that in times of austerity,

sense that in times of austerity, sense that in times of austerity,

although health spending is still although health spending is still

although health spending is still going up, public health campaigns

going up, public health campaigns going up, public health campaigns

going up, public health campaigns have suffered in that is not as much

have suffered in that is not as much have suffered in that is not as much

have suffered in that is not as much money is going into them. We are

money is going into them. We are money is going into them. We are

seeing the results of the seeing the results of the

anti-smoking campaign, but smoking anti-smoking campaign, but smoking

anti-smoking campaign, but smoking is still the highest cause of

is still the highest cause of is still the highest cause of

diseases leading to damage or diseases leading to damage or

diseases leading to damage or diseases leading to damage or

death. That is why people are saying death. That is why people are saying

death. That is why people are saying we should have plain packaging for

we should have plain packaging for we should have plain packaging for

we should have plain packaging for cigarettes and so on. But there are

cigarettes and so on. But there are cigarettes and so on. But there are

also other things. I chaired a also other things. I chaired a

also other things. I chaired a committee on behaviour change should

committee on behaviour change should committee on behaviour change should

and the science behind behavioural and the science behind behavioural

psychology and behavioural psychology and behavioural

psychology and behavioural psychology and behavioural

economics. There is a lot more we economics. There is a lot more we

economics. There is a lot more we could do with food packaging. Having

could do with food packaging. Having could do with food packaging. Having

traffic light food labelling seems traffic light food labelling seems

traffic light food labelling seems traffic light food labelling seems

to have quite a powerful effect. Why to have quite a powerful effect. Why

to have quite a powerful effect. Why aren't we doing that more widely?

aren't we doing that more widely? aren't we doing that more widely?

aren't we doing that more widely? Why aren't we saying to people, be

Why aren't we saying to people, be Why aren't we saying to people, be

careful what you eat? What about careful what you eat? What about

careful what you eat? What about high blood pressure? I was surprised

high blood pressure? I was surprised high blood pressure? I was surprised

high blood pressure? I was surprised high blood pressure? I was surprised

that that is still a big pub in the that that is still a big pub in the

that that is still a big pub in the that that is still a big pub in the

UK, when your GP tests BP on a UK, when your GP tests BP on a

UK, when your GP tests BP on a UK, when your GP tests BP on a

regular basis. If you go to your GP. regular basis. If you go to your GP.

regular basis. If you go to your GP. regular basis. If you go to your GP.

But look at the incidence of people But look at the incidence of people

But look at the incidence of people not going to their GPs, particularly

not going to their GPs, particularly not going to their GPs, particularly

not going to their GPs, particularly men. Women go to their GP far more

men. Women go to their GP far more men. Women go to their GP far more

men. Women go to their GP far more than men. People do not go until it

than men. People do not go until it than men. People do not go until it

than men. People do not go until it is too late. There is a whole thing

is too late. There is a whole thing is too late. There is a whole thing

about what GPs themselves could do. about what GPs themselves could do.

about what GPs themselves could do. We are not spending enough on

We are not spending enough on We are not spending enough on

primary care and prevention. They primary care and prevention. They

primary care and prevention. They primary care and prevention. They

primary care and prevention. They should call you in to see your GP to

should call you in to see your GP to should call you in to see your GP to

test your blood pressure more often, test your blood pressure more often,

test your blood pressure more often, test your blood pressure more often,

or you could do it yourself. Home or you could do it yourself. Home

or you could do it yourself. Home testing, something to look forward

testing, something to look forward testing, something to look forward

testing, something to look forward to. There is no reason we shouldn't

to. There is no reason we shouldn't to. There is no reason we shouldn't

provided we do it well. provided we do it well.

provided we do it well. There has been pressure on David

There has been pressure on David There has been pressure on David

Nicholson, the head of the English Nicholson, the head of the English

Nicholson, the head of the English NHS, since the publication of the

NHS, since the publication of the NHS, since the publication of the

Francis report into the abuse and Francis report into the abuse and

Francis report into the abuse and neglect that led to hundreds of

neglect that led to hundreds of hospital deaths in Mid

hospital deaths in Mid hospital deaths in Mid

Staffordshire. The report said there Staffordshire. The report said there

Staffordshire. The report said there Staffordshire. The report said there

had been a failing at every level of had been a failing at every level of

had been a failing at every level of the NHS system to prevent the

the NHS system to prevent the appalling and unnecessary suffering

appalling and unnecessary suffering appalling and unnecessary suffering

of hundreds of people. David of hundreds of people. David

of hundreds of people. David Nicholson led the regional authority

Nicholson led the regional authority overseeing the mid-Staffs trust

overseeing the mid-Staffs trust overseeing the mid-Staffs trust

during the period in question, during the period in question,

during the period in question, before going on to become chief

before going on to become chief before going on to become chief

executive of the English health executive of the English health

executive of the English health service. He has been accused by

service. He has been accused by service. He has been accused by

relatives of the dead of residing relatives of the dead of residing

relatives of the dead of residing over the worst disaster in the

over the worst disaster in the over the worst disaster in the

history of the NHS. The charges history of the NHS. The charges

history of the NHS. The charges against him have grown in recent

against him have grown in recent weeks, with revelations that

weeks, with revelations that whistleblowers, like former hospital

whistleblowers, like former hospital whistleblowers, like former hospital

chief Gary Walker, who warned that chief Gary Walker, who warned that

chief Gary Walker, who warned that targets were being prioritised over

targets were being prioritised over targets were being prioritised over

targets were being prioritised over care, and were then forced out of

care, and were then forced out of care, and were then forced out of

care, and were then forced out of the NHS and gagged. There have been

the NHS and gagged. There have been the NHS and gagged. There have been

the NHS and gagged. There have been claims in a tribunal this week that

claims in a tribunal this week that claims in a tribunal this week that

staff at Stafford Hospital were staff at Stafford Hospital were

staff at Stafford Hospital were ordered to write fake casualties

ordered to write fake casualties ordered to write fake casualties

records to meet waiting time records to meet waiting time

targets, claims those involved targets, claims those involved

targets, claims those involved targets, claims those involved

denied. In his report into the Mid denied. In his report into the Mid

Staffordshire scandal, Robert Staffordshire scandal, Robert

Staffordshire scandal, Robert Staffordshire scandal, Robert

Francis said he did not want to see Francis said he did not want to see

Francis said he did not want to see a hunt for scapegoats, and David

a hunt for scapegoats, and David a hunt for scapegoats, and David

Nicholson has the support of the Nicholson has the support of the

Nicholson has the support of the government. But there have been

government. But there have been government. But there have been

government. But there have been calls from some MPs for him to

calls from some MPs for him to calls from some MPs for him to

resign, and this morning he faced resign, and this morning he faced

resign, and this morning he faced questions from the Commons health

questions from the Commons health questions from the Commons health

select committee. Jury that period, select committee. Jury that period,

select committee. Jury that period, select committee. Jury that period,

across the NHS as a whole, patients across the NHS as a whole, patients

across the NHS as a whole, patients across the NHS as a whole, patients

were not the centre of the way the were not the centre of the way the

were not the centre of the way the system operated, for a variety of

system operated, for a variety of system operated, for a variety of

reasons. Not because we were bad, reasons. Not because we were bad,

reasons. Not because we were bad, reasons. Not because we were bad,

but because there was a set of but because there was a set of

but because there was a set of changes going on. There were things

changes going on. There were things changes going on. There were things

changes going on. There were things we were being to -- being held to

we were being to -- being held to we were being to -- being held to

account for from the centre which account for from the centre which

account for from the centre which created an environment where the

created an environment where the created an environment where the

leadership of the NHS lost its leadership of the NHS lost its

leadership of the NHS lost its leadership of the NHS lost its

leadership of the NHS lost its focus. I put my hands up to that.

focus. I put my hands up to that. focus. I put my hands up to that.

focus. I put my hands up to that. is a funny trick that people do in

is a funny trick that people do in is a funny trick that people do in

is a funny trick that people do in the witness stand is. They say they

the witness stand is. They say they the witness stand is. They say they

the witness stand is. They say they can't remember. You seem to be able

can't remember. You seem to be able can't remember. You seem to be able

can't remember. You seem to be able to not remember lots of things that

to not remember lots of things that to not remember lots of things that

to not remember lots of things that go on. In paragraph 116, I cannot

go on. In paragraph 116, I cannot go on. In paragraph 116, I cannot

with -- recall what we specifically with -- recall what we specifically

with -- recall what we specifically discussed with regards to the

discussed with regards to the discussed with regards to the

discussed with regards to the recovery plan. It is not a trick.I

recovery plan. It is not a trick.I recovery plan. It is not a trick.I

was responsible for 54 to 56 was responsible for 54 to 56

was responsible for 54 to 56 organisations. About two thirds of

organisations. About two thirds of organisations. About two thirds of

them, I had literally never been them, I had literally never been

them, I had literally never been involved with before. They were

involved with before. They were involved with before. They were

involved with before. They were brand-new to me, so I was going

brand-new to me, so I was going brand-new to me, so I was going

brand-new to me, so I was going through this for the first time. The

through this for the first time. The through this for the first time. The

through this for the first time. The idea that I could recall in detail

idea that I could recall in detail idea that I could recall in detail

idea that I could recall in detail each of the meetings I had, it is

each of the meetings I had, it is each of the meetings I had, it is

each of the meetings I had, it is quite difficult. It is not a trick.

quite difficult. It is not a trick. quite difficult. It is not a trick.

quite difficult. It is not a trick. This is what we are trying to find

This is what we are trying to find This is what we are trying to find

This is what we are trying to find out. Is it appropriate for you as

out. Is it appropriate for you as out. Is it appropriate for you as

the head of the NHS commissioning the head of the NHS commissioning

the head of the NHS commissioning the head of the NHS commissioning

board to have all this power? board to have all this power?

board to have all this power? far do you take responsibility for

far do you take responsibility for far do you take responsibility for

an organisation that has been showed an organisation that has been showed

an organisation that has been showed to minimise patient complaints, to

to minimise patient complaints, to to minimise patient complaints, to

guard whistleblowers, to amass large guard whistleblowers, to amass large

guard whistleblowers, to amass large mortality data and bury bad news?

mortality data and bury bad news? mortality data and bury bad news?

mortality data and bury bad news? And frankly, to lose sight of the

And frankly, to lose sight of the And frankly, to lose sight of the

And frankly, to lose sight of the patient in the bed? I don't accept

patient in the bed? I don't accept patient in the bed? I don't accept

patient in the bed? I don't accept the way you have described the NHS.

the way you have described the NHS. the way you have described the NHS.

the way you have described the NHS. It is a much more balanced picture

It is a much more balanced picture It is a much more balanced picture

It is a much more balanced picture than that. Secondly, I have spent 35

than that. Secondly, I have spent 35 than that. Secondly, I have spent 35

than that. Secondly, I have spent 35 years as Chief Executive of the NHS.

years as Chief Executive of the NHS. years as Chief Executive of the NHS.

I am completely dedicated to I am completely dedicated to

I am completely dedicated to improving services for patients. Of

improving services for patients. Of improving services for patients. Of

improving services for patients. Of course when I hear bad stories, I

course when I hear bad stories, I feel responsible. Like everyone

feel responsible. Like everyone feel responsible. Like everyone

feel responsible. Like everyone else, I listened to people and talk

else, I listened to people and talk else, I listened to people and talk

to people. I have a privileged to people. I have a privileged

to people. I have a privileged to people. I have a privileged

position where I can try to do position where I can try to do

something about it. something about it.

something about it. With us now the shadow health

With us now the shadow health With us now the shadow health

minister Andrew Gwynne and the minister Andrew Gwynne and the

Conservative Charlotte Leslie. Conservative Charlotte Leslie.

Conservative Charlotte Leslie. Charlotte, you want him to step

Charlotte, you want him to step Charlotte, you want him to step

down. Was there anything in that down. Was there anything in that

down. Was there anything in that performance that has convinced you

performance that has convinced you performance that has convinced you

performance that has convinced you you should stay? I am afraid not. He

you should stay? I am afraid not. He you should stay? I am afraid not. He

you should stay? I am afraid not. He reinforced the idea that as long as

reinforced the idea that as long as reinforced the idea that as long as

reinforced the idea that as long as reinforced the idea that as long as

the system says it is OK, it is OK. the system says it is OK, it is OK.

the system says it is OK, it is OK. the system says it is OK, it is OK.

He was asked a number of times about He was asked a number of times about

He was asked a number of times about what he personally took an

what he personally took an what he personally took an

initiative to do, and he always initiative to do, and he always

initiative to do, and he always referred to the system. 2-macro key

referred to the system. 2-macro key referred to the system. 2-macro key

questions were left unanswered. The questions were left unanswered. The

questions were left unanswered. The first was to do with Mid

first was to do with Mid first was to do with Mid

Staffordshire and the second was to Staffordshire and the second was to

Staffordshire and the second was to Staffordshire and the second was to

do with the mortality data, which he do with the mortality data, which he

do with the mortality data, which he do with the mortality data, which he

claimed he did not know about until claimed he did not know about until

claimed he did not know about until 2009. Mortality data was sent to

2009. Mortality data was sent to 2009. Mortality data was sent to

each hospital trust every month when each hospital trust every month when

each hospital trust every month when each hospital trust every month when

things were getting a bit in excess. things were getting a bit in excess.

things were getting a bit in excess. things were getting a bit in excess.

There is a question of his note There is a question of his note

There is a question of his note dismissing the concerns of patient

dismissing the concerns of patient dismissing the concerns of patient

dismissing the concerns of patient groups who came to see him. And then

groups who came to see him. And then groups who came to see him. And then

groups who came to see him. And then across the whole of the NHS, there

across the whole of the NHS, there across the whole of the NHS, there

were three reports published in 2008 were three reports published in 2008

which were extremely damning, which were extremely damning,

which were extremely damning, which were extremely damning,

talking about a culture of fear and talking about a culture of fear and

talking about a culture of fear and mistrust in the Department of

mistrust in the Department of mistrust in the Department of

Health, a lack of trust between Health, a lack of trust between

managers and woefully inadequate managers and woefully inadequate

managers and woefully inadequate quality assessment systems. He says

quality assessment systems. He says quality assessment systems. He says

quality assessment systems. He says he did not know about those reports

he did not know about those reports he did not know about those reports

he did not know about those reports in 2008 and was not responsible for

in 2008 and was not responsible for in 2008 and was not responsible for

their suppression. The question is, their suppression. The question is,

their suppression. The question is, did he suppress those reports

did he suppress those reports did he suppress those reports

personally? Is he being dishonest? personally? Is he being dishonest?

personally? Is he being dishonest? personally? Is he being dishonest?

If he did not, who did suppress If he did not, who did suppress

If he did not, who did suppress those reports? In the time between

those reports? In the time between those reports? In the time between

those reports being published and those reports being published and

those reports being published and those reports being published and

2010, when there were dug up by a 2010, when there were dug up by a

2010, when there were dug up by a Freedom of Information Act request

Freedom of Information Act request Freedom of Information Act request

because even the health select because even the health select

because even the health select committee did not have access to

committee did not have access to committee did not have access to

committee did not have access to them, if you look at the mortality

them, if you look at the mortality them, if you look at the mortality

rates across the hospitals we are rates across the hospitals we are

rates across the hospitals we are worried about, there were 2800

worried about, there were 2800 worried about, there were 2800

excess deaths. If those reports had excess deaths. If those reports had

excess deaths. If those reports had been acted upon, how many lives

been acted upon, how many lives been acted upon, how many lives

been acted upon, how many lives could have been saved? It was a

could have been saved? It was a could have been saved? It was a

serious issue which he failed to serious issue which he failed to

serious issue which he failed to serious issue which he failed to

cancer. This was a man who oversaw cancer. This was a man who oversaw

cancer. This was a man who oversaw cancer. This was a man who oversaw

all of those things. We do not say all of those things. We do not say

all of those things. We do not say he was directly responsible, but he

he was directly responsible, but he he was directly responsible, but he

he was directly responsible, but he oversaw a regime firstly as chair of

oversaw a regime firstly as chair of oversaw a regime firstly as chair of

the regional Health Authority, when the regional Health Authority, when

the regional Health Authority, when there were hundreds of unnecessary

there were hundreds of unnecessary there were hundreds of unnecessary

deaths, and then, as Charlotte deaths, and then, as Charlotte

deaths, and then, as Charlotte Leslie has outlined, three other

Leslie has outlined, three other Leslie has outlined, three other

reports about a culture throughout reports about a culture throughout

reports about a culture throughout the NHS while he was Chief

the NHS while he was Chief the NHS while he was Chief

the NHS while he was Chief Executive. How can he stay? We have

Executive. How can he stay? We have Executive. How can he stay? We have

to tread with caution here. Firstly, to tread with caution here. Firstly,

to tread with caution here. Firstly, to tread with caution here. Firstly,

David Nicholson is doing a good job David Nicholson is doing a good job

David Nicholson is doing a good job at holding the NHS together under

at holding the NHS together under difficult circumstances.

difficult circumstances. difficult circumstances.

according to these three reports. according to these three reports.

according to these three reports. are facing a very big reorganising

are facing a very big reorganising are facing a very big reorganising

are facing a very big reorganising -- reorganisation of the NHS, and we

-- reorganisation of the NHS, and we -- reorganisation of the NHS, and we

need someone like David Nicholson to need someone like David Nicholson to

need someone like David Nicholson to ensure that the National Health

ensure that the National Health ensure that the National Health

Service is kept together. I also Service is kept together. I also

Service is kept together. I also take exception to the fact that

take exception to the fact that take exception to the fact that

Charlotte says these three reports Charlotte says these three reports

were suppressed. Actually, those were suppressed. Actually, those

were suppressed. Actually, those three reports fed into the quality

three reports fed into the quality three reports fed into the quality

review that was led and actually, review that was led and actually,

review that was led and actually, review that was led and actually,

they were acted on. How were they they were acted on. How were they

they were acted on. How were they they were acted on. How were they

acted on? They were acted on because acted on? They were acted on because

acted on? They were acted on because acted on? They were acted on because

the review into the quality of the the review into the quality of the

the review into the quality of the NHS, which has driven up standards

NHS, which has driven up standards NHS, which has driven up standards

NHS, which has driven up standards of quality across the NHS, as even

of quality across the NHS, as even of quality across the NHS, as even

David Cameron at the knowledge, it David Cameron at the knowledge, it

David Cameron at the knowledge, it David Cameron at the knowledge, it

is unfair to say these reports were is unfair to say these reports were

is unfair to say these reports were suppressed. If you read the final

suppressed. If you read the final suppressed. If you read the final

government report, it bears no government report, it bears no

government report, it bears no relation to what these reports

relation to what these reports relation to what these reports

relation to what these reports stated was a dire situation in the

stated was a dire situation in the stated was a dire situation in the

stated was a dire situation in the NHS. Alan Johnson says the NHS is in

NHS. Alan Johnson says the NHS is in NHS. Alan Johnson says the NHS is in

NHS. Alan Johnson says the NHS is in a good state of health. That was not

a good state of health. That was not an appropriate reaction. Secondly,

an appropriate reaction. Secondly, an appropriate reaction. Secondly,

the things these reports raise are the things these reports raise are

the things these reports raise are almost identical to what Francis

almost identical to what Francis almost identical to what Francis

raised five years later. If they raised five years later. If they

raised five years later. If they attempted to be acted upon, the

attempted to be acted upon, the attempted to be acted upon, the

negligence of not acting upon those negligence of not acting upon those

negligence of not acting upon those things is serious. They were not

things is serious. They were not things is serious. They were not

things is serious. They were not suppressed, but they may -- the idea

suppressed, but they may -- the idea suppressed, but they may -- the idea

suppressed, but they may -- the idea that they do report was acted upon

that they do report was acted upon that they do report was acted upon

that they do report was acted upon is not true. It is not easy for

is not true. It is not easy for is not true. It is not easy for

David Nicholson now. With all this David Nicholson now. With all this

David Nicholson now. With all this information coming out, looking at

information coming out, looking at information coming out, looking at

information coming out, looking at it from a layman's point of view, I

it from a layman's point of view, I it from a layman's point of view, I

it from a layman's point of view, I know it is difficult if you are a

know it is difficult if you are a know it is difficult if you are a

know it is difficult if you are a senior manager in the NHS, but it

senior manager in the NHS, but it senior manager in the NHS, but it

senior manager in the NHS, but it seems it is difficult for him to

seems it is difficult for him to seems it is difficult for him to

seems it is difficult for him to day. It is difficult for him to

day. It is difficult for him to day. It is difficult for him to

day. It is difficult for him to stay, but it would be far worse if

stay, but it would be far worse if stay, but it would be far worse if

he went. There are huge difficulties he went. There are huge difficulties

he went. There are huge difficulties in the NHS. Charlotte is arguing

in the NHS. Charlotte is arguing in the NHS. Charlotte is arguing

that the reports were suppressed and that the reports were suppressed and

that the reports were suppressed and that the reports were suppressed and

were part of the review. To some were part of the review. To some

were part of the review. To some extent, you are both white, which

extent, you are both white, which extent, you are both white, which

makes it even more difficult. But makes it even more difficult. But

makes it even more difficult. But data about access deaths and

data about access deaths and hospital statistics, that material

hospital statistics, that material hospital statistics, that material

hospital statistics, that material has been around for 15 years and

has been around for 15 years and has been around for 15 years and

has been around for 15 years and more. And the system has not been

more. And the system has not been more. And the system has not been

more. And the system has not been good at dealing with it. At various

good at dealing with it. At various good at dealing with it. At various

good at dealing with it. At various times, people in the NHS have wanted

times, people in the NHS have wanted times, people in the NHS have wanted

times, people in the NHS have wanted to bury the bad news. We know that

to bury the bad news. We know that to bury the bad news. We know that

to bury the bad news. We know that to be the case. I was Chief

to be the case. I was Chief to be the case. I was Chief

Executive of the King's fund, and Executive of the King's fund, and

Executive of the King's fund, and Executive of the King's fund, and

this goes back to that. But does this goes back to that. But does

this goes back to that. But does this goes back to that. But does

someone have to pay for the fact someone have to pay for the fact

someone have to pay for the fact someone have to pay for the fact

that it has now come out in the that it has now come out in the

that it has now come out in the Francis report that that target and

Francis report that that target and Francis report that that target and

-- target led culture contributed to -- target led culture contributed to

-- target led culture contributed to unnecessary deaths, and he was in

unnecessary deaths, and he was in unnecessary deaths, and he was in

charge of that culture? You could charge of that culture? You could

charge of that culture? You could charge of that culture? You could

argue that, but then you could say argue that, but then you could say

argue that, but then you could say argue that, but then you could say

he was keener -- who was keen on he was keener -- who was keen on

he was keener -- who was keen on pushing for that target led

pushing for that target led pushing for that target led

culture? It was the secretary of culture? It was the secretary of

culture? It was the secretary of culture? It was the secretary of

state. If you wanted to go down that state. If you wanted to go down that

state. If you wanted to go down that path, you could argue that

path, you could argue that path, you could argue that

politicians have to take the hit. politicians have to take the hit.

politicians have to take the hit. Isn't that why they are supporting

Isn't that why they are supporting Isn't that why they are supporting

Isn't that why they are supporting him? Because they are bound up in

him? Because they are bound up in him? Because they are bound up in

him? Because they are bound up in what has gone wrong with the NHS.

what has gone wrong with the NHS. what has gone wrong with the NHS.

what has gone wrong with the NHS. need to recognise that the NHS in

need to recognise that the NHS in need to recognise that the NHS in

need to recognise that the NHS in 1997 was very different to the NHS

1997 was very different to the NHS 1997 was very different to the NHS

1997 was very different to the NHS in 2010, and there was not only

in 2010, and there was not only in 2010, and there was not only

record levels of investment, extra record levels of investment, extra

nurses and doctors, new nurses and doctors, new

nurses and doctors, new hospitals... But it didn't prevent

hospitals... But it didn't prevent these unnecessary deaths. Patient

these unnecessary deaths. Patient these unnecessary deaths. Patient

satisfaction was at the highest satisfaction was at the highest

satisfaction was at the highest levels and the NHS was performing

levels and the NHS was performing levels and the NHS was performing

well. There are examples, and Mid well. There are examples, and Mid

well. There are examples, and Mid Staffordshire is the one uppermost

Staffordshire is the one uppermost Staffordshire is the one uppermost

Staffordshire is the one uppermost in our minds at the moment...

in our minds at the moment... in our minds at the moment...

in our minds at the moment... shouldn't he go? Are we truly saying

shouldn't he go? Are we truly saying shouldn't he go? Are we truly saying

there isn't anybody else who could there isn't anybody else who could

there isn't anybody else who could there isn't anybody else who could

do this job? The manager code of do this job? The manager code of

do this job? The manager code of conduct says I will put patient

conduct says I will put patient safety first, take responsibility

safety first, take responsibility safety first, take responsibility

safety first, take responsibility for my own work and those underneath

for my own work and those underneath for my own work and those underneath

for my own work and those underneath me. In the case of Mr Nicholson and

me. In the case of Mr Nicholson and me. In the case of Mr Nicholson and

others, this code of conduct has others, this code of conduct has

others, this code of conduct has others, this code of conduct has

been broken. If you want to see been broken. If you want to see

been broken. If you want to see accountability, it must mean taking

accountability, it must mean taking responsibility. For the one-year

responsibility. For the one-year responsibility. For the one-year

responsibility. For the one-year David Nicholson was in charge of the

David Nicholson was in charge of the David Nicholson was in charge of the

strategic Health Authority, he was strategic Health Authority, he was

overseeing a massive reorganisation overseeing a massive reorganisation

overseeing a massive reorganisation overseeing a massive reorganisation

of the NHS in the West Midlands, of the NHS in the West Midlands,

combining three smaller strategic combining three smaller strategic

combining three smaller strategic Health Authority is into one, a

large-scale ambulance large-scale ambulance

reorganisation, and reducing the reorganisation, and reducing the

reorganisation, and reducing the number of primary care trusts by

number of primary care trusts by number of primary care trusts by

number of primary care trusts by half across the region. Some of that

half across the region. Some of that reorganisation was almost certainly

reorganisation was almost certainly reorganisation was almost certainly

unnecessary and politicians need to unnecessary and politicians need to

unnecessary and politicians need to take responsibility for the constant

take responsibility for the constant take responsibility for the constant

moving of deckchairs. Do you accept moving of deckchairs. Do you accept

moving of deckchairs. Do you accept moving of deckchairs. Do you accept

David Nicholson has said the NHS is David Nicholson has said the NHS is

David Nicholson has said the NHS is under massive risk as the

under massive risk as the restructuring takes place, having

restructuring takes place, having restructuring takes place, having

restructuring takes place, having laid out all of your claims against

laid out all of your claims against laid out all of your claims against

laid out all of your claims against him he is now having to oversee a

him he is now having to oversee a him he is now having to oversee a

reorganisation. One of the most reorganisation. One of the most

important things in any important things in any

important things in any reorganisation is that the man at

reorganisation is that the man at reorganisation is that the man at

reorganisation is that the man at the top has to have confidence in

the top has to have confidence in the top has to have confidence in

doctors. The burden brought in on doctors. The burden brought in on

them was jeopardising patient them was jeopardising patient

them was jeopardising patient them was jeopardising patient

safety. How can a man who has safety. How can a man who has

overseen this move without overseen this move without

overseen this move without accountability? He says in the case

accountability? He says in the case accountability? He says in the case

of the Lincolnshire NHS trust that of the Lincolnshire NHS trust that

of the Lincolnshire NHS trust that he didn't know. In big organisations

he didn't know. In big organisations he didn't know. In big organisations

like the NHS, you cannot know like the NHS, you cannot know

like the NHS, you cannot know like the NHS, you cannot know

everything, can you? If you are paid everything, can you? If you are paid

everything, can you? If you are paid everything, can you? If you are paid

everything, can you? If you are paid a large salary to be at the top of

a large salary to be at the top of a large salary to be at the top of

a large salary to be at the top of the tree, that is because you take

the tree, that is because you take the tree, that is because you take

responsibility for your own work and responsibility for your own work and

responsibility for your own work and that work from people underneath

that work from people underneath that work from people underneath

that work from people underneath you. We owe it to patients and

you. We owe it to patients and you. We owe it to patients and

doctors to change that culture. We doctors to change that culture. We

doctors to change that culture. We doctors to change that culture. We

have an opportunity and it would be have an opportunity and it would be

have an opportunity and it would be have an opportunity and it would be

remiss not to do it. The danger is remiss not to do it. The danger is

remiss not to do it. The danger is remiss not to do it. The danger is

that embarking on a massive top down that embarking on a massive top down

reorganisation, something you said reorganisation, something you said

reorganisation, something you said would not happen at the next

would not happen at the next would not happen at the next

election, making sure we learned election, making sure we learned

election, making sure we learned election, making sure we learned

those lessons, we miss all of that those lessons, we miss all of that

those lessons, we miss all of that those lessons, we miss all of that

and we go through the procedure is and we go through the procedure is

and we go through the procedure is again of reorganising and we don't

again of reorganising and we don't again of reorganising and we don't

tackle the underlying problems. tackle the underlying problems.

tackle the underlying problems. we were serious about reorganising,

we were serious about reorganising, we were serious about reorganising,

we were serious about reorganising, to get the patients' voice at the

to get the patients' voice at the to get the patients' voice at the

to get the patients' voice at the heart of it, this is not how you

heart of it, this is not how you heart of it, this is not how you

heart of it, this is not how you would do it and you would have to

would do it and you would have to would do it and you would have to

put patients more at the forefront. put patients more at the forefront.

put patients more at the forefront. put patients more at the forefront.

No one wants to be taking that on. No one wants to be taking that on.

No one wants to be taking that on. Even David Nicholson has admitted

Even David Nicholson has admitted Even David Nicholson has admitted

Even David Nicholson has admitted patients were not at the centre of

patients were not at the centre of patients were not at the centre of

patients were not at the centre of the NHS. We have learnt that the

the NHS. We have learnt that the central bureaucratic organisation

central bureaucratic organisation central bureaucratic organisation

central bureaucratic organisation does not work for the NHS, so who

does not work for the NHS, so who does not work for the NHS, so who

does not work for the NHS, so who better to put in charge of the

better to put in charge of the commissioning than the commissions

commissioning than the commissions commissioning than the commissions

commissioning than the commissions themselves? That is why this is so

themselves? That is why this is so themselves? That is why this is so

timely. Many clinicians were trying timely. Many clinicians were trying

timely. Many clinicians were trying timely. Many clinicians were trying

to speak out. They are the ones that to speak out. They are the ones that

to speak out. They are the ones that should be driving this. Thank you.

should be driving this. Thank you. should be driving this. Thank you.

should be driving this. Thank you. Do you have a short attention span?

Do you have a short attention span? Do you have a short attention span?

Have you ever considered working in Have you ever considered working in

Have you ever considered working in business? UK plc is plagued by

business? UK plc is plagued by business? UK plc is plagued by

business? UK plc is plagued by short-term thinking and it is a big

short-term thinking and it is a big short-term thinking and it is a big

short-term thinking and it is a big problem, so says a report by the

problem, so says a report by the problem, so says a report by the

businessmen Sir George Cox. He says businessmen Sir George Cox. He says

businessmen Sir George Cox. He says he has a solution. He wants lower

he has a solution. He wants lower capital gains tax for long-term

capital gains tax for long-term capital gains tax for long-term

investors. He wants a longer term investors. He wants a longer term

investors. He wants a longer term perspective or instruct structure --

perspective or instruct structure -- for infrastructure and wants

for infrastructure and wants for infrastructure and wants

executive pay to be tied to executive pay to be tied to

long-term performance. From the long-term performance. From the

long-term performance. From the other side, the free enterprise

other side, the free enterprise other side, the free enterprise

other side, the free enterprise group of Tory MPs have called for

group of Tory MPs have called for group of Tory MPs have called for

group of Tory MPs have called for radical tax cuts now to deliver a

radical tax cuts now to deliver a radical tax cuts now to deliver a

quick boost to the economy. Joining quick boost to the economy. Joining

quick boost to the economy. Joining me now, Labour's Business Minister

me now, Labour's Business Minister me now, Labour's Business Minister

me now, Labour's Business Minister Iain Wright and MP Jesse Norman. How

Iain Wright and MP Jesse Norman. How Iain Wright and MP Jesse Norman. How

are those suggestions going to are those suggestions going to

are those suggestions going to kickstart the economy now? It is

kickstart the economy now? It is kickstart the economy now? It is

important that looking at a important that looking at a

important that looking at a short-term boost, but as Sir George

short-term boost, but as Sir George short-term boost, but as Sir George

short-term boost, but as Sir George Cox says in his report, for too long

Cox says in his report, for too long Cox says in his report, for too long

Cox says in his report, for too long we have had an emphasis on getting a

we have had an emphasis on getting a we have had an emphasis on getting a

we have had an emphasis on getting a quick buck. What do you say to

quick buck. What do you say to quick buck. What do you say to

that? That long-term goals would that? That long-term goals would

that? That long-term goals would reap greater dividends? It is

reap greater dividends? It is reap greater dividends? It is

interesting how the government focus interesting how the government focus

interesting how the government focus interesting how the government focus

has been on the long-term. The real has been on the long-term. The real

has been on the long-term. The real has been on the long-term. The real

has been on the long-term. The real question is how do we get rid of the

question is how do we get rid of the embedded short-term culture in

embedded short-term culture in embedded short-term culture in

business and the government in the business and the government in the

business and the government in the instruments of government? I think

instruments of government? I think instruments of government? I think

this is a helpful and interesting this is a helpful and interesting

this is a helpful and interesting report in terms of contributing.

report in terms of contributing. report in terms of contributing.

report in terms of contributing. come back to the question of growth

come back to the question of growth come back to the question of growth

come back to the question of growth now. Do you agree with some of the

now. Do you agree with some of the now. Do you agree with some of the

suggestions that have been put suggestions that have been put

suggestions that have been put forward by Jesse Norman's group,

forward by Jesse Norman's group, forward by Jesse Norman's group,

forward by Jesse Norman's group, that we need to have some radical

that we need to have some radical that we need to have some radical

tax cuts or some series investment tax cuts or some series investment

tax cuts or some series investment bringing down corporation tax for

bringing down corporation tax for bringing down corporation tax for

example? There is something to be example? There is something to be

example? There is something to be example? There is something to be

said about that. We have called for said about that. We have called for

said about that. We have called for said about that. We have called for

targeted tax cuts, and I don't think targeted tax cuts, and I don't think

targeted tax cuts, and I don't think targeted tax cuts, and I don't think

the tax cuts for millionaires at the the tax cuts for millionaires at the

the tax cuts for millionaires at the expense of the wider population

expense of the wider population matters. Investment in

matters. Investment in infrastructure is important.

infrastructure is important. infrastructure is important.

Long-term, where will we make our Long-term, where will we make our

Long-term, where will we make our Long-term, where will we make our

money in the next 30 years? In the money in the next 30 years? In the

money in the next 30 years? In the money in the next 30 years? In the

money in the next 30 years? In the report, and I take my hat off to Sir

report, and I take my hat off to Sir report, and I take my hat off to Sir

report, and I take my hat off to Sir George Cox for this, there is an

George Cox for this, there is an interesting parallel to the

interesting parallel to the interesting parallel to the

Olympics. Britain was doing very Olympics. Britain was doing very

badly, then essentially somebody badly, then essentially somebody

badly, then essentially somebody said to take this seriously and

said to take this seriously and said to take this seriously and

invest, and be brutal in not invest, and be brutal in not

invest, and be brutal in not invest, and be brutal in not

investing in areas where we are not investing in areas where we are not

investing in areas where we are not competitively strong. For us, it is

competitively strong. For us, it is areas like pharmaceuticals, various

areas like pharmaceuticals, various areas like pharmaceuticals, various

areas like pharmaceuticals, various areas of technology, and it is a

areas of technology, and it is a long-term investment strategy

long-term investment strategy long-term investment strategy

focusing on Friday Value added focusing on Friday Value added

focusing on Friday Value added technologies. Why would it be a

technologies. Why would it be a technologies. Why would it be a

success? Just because it is success? Just because it is

independent of government control. independent of government control.

independent of government control. independent of government control.

We have the OBE are and one could We have the OBE are and one could

We have the OBE are and one could We have the OBE are and one could

argue it hasn't got one of its argue it hasn't got one of its

argue it hasn't got one of its forecasts right. It would still be

forecasts right. It would still be forecasts right. It would still be

central planning, why would that central planning, why would that

central planning, why would that work? Whether it is aviation

work? Whether it is aviation work? Whether it is aviation

strategy, energy policy, at the strategy, energy policy, at the

strategy, energy policy, at the moment we haven't got that.

moment we haven't got that. can't politicians make decisions

can't politicians make decisions can't politicians make decisions

about infrastructure? I think they about infrastructure? I think they

about infrastructure? I think they can but it takes cross-party

can but it takes cross-party can but it takes cross-party

consensus. When you have too much consensus. When you have too much

consensus. When you have too much alienation, people want it to be

alienation, people want it to be democratically accountable. What is

democratically accountable. What is interesting in a re-energise

interesting in a re-energise treasury group sitting there,

treasury group sitting there, treasury group sitting there,

thinking how can we raise money, thinking how can we raise money,

thinking how can we raise money, with the understanding that this

with the understanding that this with the understanding that this

parliament will not see anything parliament will not see anything

parliament will not see anything like the benefit of the Olympics,

like the benefit of the Olympics, like the benefit of the Olympics,

like the benefit of the Olympics, and that is a long-term process.

and that is a long-term process. and that is a long-term process.

it time to stop ring fencing it time to stop ring fencing

it time to stop ring fencing health, education, and foreign aid

health, education, and foreign aid health, education, and foreign aid

health, education, and foreign aid budgets, to try to use that money to

budgets, to try to use that money to budgets, to try to use that money to

kickstart the economy? The most kickstart the economy? The most

kickstart the economy? The most kickstart the economy? The most

striking part of this report is that striking part of this report is that

striking part of this report is that striking part of this report is that

for the best part of 40 years, for the best part of 40 years,

for the best part of 40 years, politicians have been obsessed with

politicians have been obsessed with politicians have been obsessed with

politicians have been obsessed with how you divide the pie. How will you

how you divide the pie. How will you how you divide the pie. How will you

divide expenditure, whether it is divide expenditure, whether it is

divide expenditure, whether it is defence over welfare. The question

defence over welfare. The question defence over welfare. The question

defence over welfare. The question is how we create the wealth to make

is how we create the wealth to make is how we create the wealth to make

is how we create the wealth to make the pie in the first place. Is it

the pie in the first place. Is it the pie in the first place. Is it

time to stop ring fencing those time to stop ring fencing those

departments because others are departments because others are

departments because others are squealing and saying you will not

squealing and saying you will not squealing and saying you will not

take more money from welfare, take more money from welfare,

take more money from welfare, take more money from welfare,

defence and business in order to be defence and business in order to be

defence and business in order to be defence and business in order to be

funding the others. You would say if funding the others. You would say if

funding the others. You would say if funding the others. You would say if

you want to take a long-term view, you want to take a long-term view,

you want to take a long-term view, you want to take a long-term view,

there is a lot of technology in there is a lot of technology in

there is a lot of technology in there is a lot of technology in

health care and you would say to the health care and you would say to the

health care and you would say to the Department of Health you can keep

Department of Health you can keep Department of Health you can keep

Department of Health you can keep your budget but you are expected to

your budget but you are expected to your budget but you are expected to

your budget but you are expected to your budget but you are expected to

use all of the data you can get to use all of the data you can get to

use all of the data you can get to really innovate. I think you could

really innovate. I think you could really innovate. I think you could

really innovate. I think you could use it in a different way. Is Philip

use it in a different way. Is Philip use it in a different way. Is Philip

use it in a different way. Is Philip Hulme and wrong to say we should

Hulme and wrong to say we should Hulme and wrong to say we should

have more money from the welfare have more money from the welfare

have more money from the welfare budget? He is perfectly entitled,

budget? He is perfectly entitled, budget? He is perfectly entitled,

budget? He is perfectly entitled, but I do think Baroness Neuberger is

but I do think Baroness Neuberger is but I do think Baroness Neuberger is

but I do think Baroness Neuberger is right. The NHS, this is the first

right. The NHS, this is the first right. The NHS, this is the first

right. The NHS, this is the first time in which a vast amount of data

time in which a vast amount of data time in which a vast amount of data

built over several decades is now built over several decades is now

being used for pharmaceutical being used for pharmaceutical

being used for pharmaceutical research. That is a very long-term

research. That is a very long-term research. That is a very long-term

investment that will yield benefits. investment that will yield benefits.

investment that will yield benefits. How rattled our Tory backbenchers

How rattled our Tory backbenchers How rattled our Tory backbenchers

over the economy? Your colleague has over the economy? Your colleague has

over the economy? Your colleague has over the economy? Your colleague has

told George Osborne he has got to told George Osborne he has got to

told George Osborne he has got to told George Osborne he has got to

man all over the economy. I don't man all over the economy. I don't

man all over the economy. I don't think you should take the prebudget

think you should take the prebudget think you should take the prebudget

jockeying as evidence for the state jockeying as evidence for the state

jockeying as evidence for the state of the argument. Or the

of the argument. Or the of the argument. Or the

of the argument. Or the backbenchers? I think you have a lot

backbenchers? I think you have a lot backbenchers? I think you have a lot

backbenchers? I think you have a lot of people offering views and that is

of people offering views and that is of people offering views and that is

what any good politician would want. what any good politician would want.

what any good politician would want. what any good politician would want.

Is that what George Osborne wants to Is that what George Osborne wants to

Is that what George Osborne wants to hear, that the backbenchers are

hear, that the backbenchers are hear, that the backbenchers are

hear, that the backbenchers are offering a range of ideas? He has

offering a range of ideas? He has offering a range of ideas? He has

said we want the best thinking, said we want the best thinking,

said we want the best thinking, alongside... There will be a debate

alongside... There will be a debate alongside... There will be a debate

alongside... There will be a debate about it, he is robust enough to

about it, he is robust enough to about it, he is robust enough to

about it, he is robust enough to deal with that. All of the things

deal with that. All of the things deal with that. All of the things

deal with that. All of the things that have been put forward by your

that have been put forward by your that have been put forward by your

that have been put forward by your colleagues, is it right to use those

colleagues, is it right to use those colleagues, is it right to use those

suggestions to boost the economy? suggestions to boost the economy?

suggestions to boost the economy? should simply ask the question Comet

should simply ask the question Comet should simply ask the question Comet

is the money being appropriately is the money being appropriately

is the money being appropriately is the money being appropriately

spent? If it turned out you were not spent? If it turned out you were not

spent? If it turned out you were not hitting your development and aid

hitting your development and aid hitting your development and aid

goals because it was being badly goals because it was being badly

goals because it was being badly spent, that would be reason enough

spent, that would be reason enough spent, that would be reason enough

spent, that would be reason enough to look again at the budget. And you

to look again at the budget. And you to look again at the budget. And you

would like look again at universal would like look again at universal

would like look again at universal benefits? There is a strong balance

benefits? There is a strong balance benefits? There is a strong balance

about having targeted benefits for about having targeted benefits for

about having targeted benefits for the vulnerable whilst at the same

the vulnerable whilst at the same the vulnerable whilst at the same

time ensuring all of society can time ensuring all of society can

time ensuring all of society can benefit. That balance is an

benefit. That balance is an benefit. That balance is an

benefit. That balance is an important debate to have, but we are

important debate to have, but we are important debate to have, but we are

moving away from the key point, moving away from the key point,

moving away from the key point, moving away from the key point,

which is how we make sure we have which is how we make sure we have

which is how we make sure we have the wealth creating structures of

the wealth creating structures of the wealth creating structures of

the wealth creating structures of the future. This is longer than one

the future. This is longer than one the future. This is longer than one

single parliament. You think George single parliament. You think George

single parliament. You think George single parliament. You think George

Osborne is still doing a good job? Osborne is still doing a good job?

Osborne is still doing a good job? think the Chancellor is doing a

think the Chancellor is doing a think the Chancellor is doing a

think the Chancellor is doing a great job, and nothing would fill me

great job, and nothing would fill me great job, and nothing would fill me

great job, and nothing would fill me with more worry than the idea of the

with more worry than the idea of the industrial strategy, old school.

industrial strategy, old school. industrial strategy, old school.

industrial strategy, old school. This shares out a series of good

This shares out a series of good This shares out a series of good

This shares out a series of good ideas that can be looked at by both

ideas that can be looked at by both ideas that can be looked at by both

parties. Could you feed yourself on parties. Could you feed yourself on

parties. Could you feed yourself on parties. Could you feed yourself on

�1 a day? The campaign Live Below �1 a day? The campaign Live Below

�1 a day? The campaign Live Below The Line is encouraging people to

The Line is encouraging people to The Line is encouraging people to

The Line is encouraging people to The Line is encouraging people to

spend no more than �1 a day on food. spend no more than �1 a day on food.

spend no more than �1 a day on food. More than a billion people around

More than a billion people around More than a billion people around

More than a billion people around the world have to survive on less

the world have to survive on less the world have to survive on less

the world have to survive on less than �1 a day for their basic

than �1 a day for their basic than �1 a day for their basic

needs, and this charity wants people needs, and this charity wants people

needs, and this charity wants people needs, and this charity wants people

needs, and this charity wants people in the UK to get an idea of what

in the UK to get an idea of what in the UK to get an idea of what

in the UK to get an idea of what that feels like. They have roped in

that feels like. They have roped in that feels like. They have roped in

the former first Minister of the former first Minister of

the former first Minister of Scotland Jack McConnell to try this

Scotland Jack McConnell to try this Scotland Jack McConnell to try this

Scotland Jack McConnell to try this Scotland Jack McConnell to try this

out. What is it like living on �1 a out. What is it like living on �1 a

out. What is it like living on �1 a out. What is it like living on �1 a

day? It is tough for the full five day? It is tough for the full five

day? It is tough for the full five day? It is tough for the full five

days. At first you can manage, but days. At first you can manage, but

days. At first you can manage, but then it gets tough. You experience

then it gets tough. You experience then it gets tough. You experience

then it gets tough. You experience what it must be like to live like

what it must be like to live like what it must be like to live like

what it must be like to live like that all the time, to some extent.

that all the time, to some extent. that all the time, to some extent.

that all the time, to some extent. What is it that happens to you? Do

What is it that happens to you? Do What is it that happens to you? Do

What is it that happens to you? Do you get tired or grumpy? I fell

you get tired or grumpy? I fell you get tired or grumpy? I fell

you get tired or grumpy? I fell trying to live on crisps or Mars

trying to live on crisps or Mars bars but that is a crazy way of

bars but that is a crazy way of bars but that is a crazy way of

bars but that is a crazy way of doing it. You have to plan and cut

doing it. You have to plan and cut doing it. You have to plan and cut

doing it. You have to plan and cut out some of the things you can't

out some of the things you can't out some of the things you can't

afford. Milk is not affordable afford. Milk is not affordable

afford. Milk is not affordable afford. Milk is not affordable

inside �5 for five days. At porridge inside �5 for five days. At porridge

inside �5 for five days. At porridge inside �5 for five days. At porridge

is, so I break my lifelong habits is, so I break my lifelong habits

is, so I break my lifelong habits and eat porridge. Lentil soup is

and eat porridge. Lentil soup is and eat porridge. Lentil soup is

and eat porridge. Lentil soup is great. Nutritional as well. It is an

great. Nutritional as well. It is an great. Nutritional as well. It is an

opportunity to become aware, raise opportunity to become aware, raise

opportunity to become aware, raise awareness and raise money, hope

awareness and raise money, hope awareness and raise money, hope

awareness and raise money, hope fully. There are some recipes on the

fully. There are some recipes on the fully. There are some recipes on the

charity's website. Are any of them charity's website. Are any of them

charity's website. Are any of them actually nice? Depends what you

actually nice? Depends what you actually nice? Depends what you

actually nice? Depends what you actually nice? Depends what you

regard as nice. I make a good pot of regard as nice. I make a good pot of

regard as nice. I make a good pot of regard as nice. I make a good pot of

lentil soup! I will bring them along lentil soup! I will bring them along

lentil soup! I will bring them along lentil soup! I will bring them along

to the Politics Show if you want. to the Politics Show if you want.

to the Politics Show if you want. to the Politics Show if you want.

it hard bring it in an environment it hard bring it in an environment

it hard bring it in an environment it hard bring it in an environment

like the House of Lords, where there like the House of Lords, where there

like the House of Lords, where there like the House of Lords, where there

is a lots of nice food? To be is a lots of nice food? To be

is a lots of nice food? To be is a lots of nice food? To be

honest, I am going to change my five honest, I am going to change my five

honest, I am going to change my five days slightly, because there are

days slightly, because there are days slightly, because there are

days slightly, because there are times when you just can't plan this

times when you just can't plan this times when you just can't plan this

as part of a normal working as part of a normal working

as part of a normal working as part of a normal working

routine. But it is possible to find routine. But it is possible to find

routine. But it is possible to find routine. But it is possible to find

five days to do it within. You have five days to do it within. You have

five days to do it within. You have to be disciplined. Last year, we

to be disciplined. Last year, we to be disciplined. Last year, we

organised a Lords soup kitchen, as organised a Lords soup kitchen, as

organised a Lords soup kitchen, as organised a Lords soup kitchen, as

it was called. Our nesting Kim, one it was called. Our nesting Kim, one

of our fellow participants, of our fellow participants,

of our fellow participants, of our fellow participants,

organised a group of us to eat every organised a group of us to eat every

organised a group of us to eat every day together on some very cheap

day together on some very cheap day together on some very cheap

things at lunchtime, and that helped things at lunchtime, and that helped

things at lunchtime, and that helped things at lunchtime, and that helped

us get through the five days. We all us get through the five days. We all

us get through the five days. We all us get through the five days. We all

do our bit, and there will be a do our bit, and there will be a

do our bit, and there will be a do our bit, and there will be a

group of us again doing this this group of us again doing this this

group of us again doing this this year. Presumably, you can't have any

year. Presumably, you can't have any year. Presumably, you can't have any

booze because it is too expensive? booze because it is too expensive?

booze because it is too expensive? booze because it is too expensive?

No booze, no coffee, no milk. Not No booze, no coffee, no milk. Not

No booze, no coffee, no milk. Not No booze, no coffee, no milk. Not

even milk in the porridge. You just even milk in the porridge. You just

even milk in the porridge. You just cannot afford to do certain things.

cannot afford to do certain things. cannot afford to do certain things.

cannot afford to do certain things. For me, the biggest lesson is the

For me, the biggest lesson is the For me, the biggest lesson is the

For me, the biggest lesson is the lack of choice. Two years ago, I

lack of choice. Two years ago, I lack of choice. Two years ago, I

lack of choice. Two years ago, I burnt one of the meals I was

burnt one of the meals I was burnt one of the meals I was

burnt one of the meals I was cooking. At that point in the day,

cooking. At that point in the day, cooking. At that point in the day,

cooking. At that point in the day, there was no money left in the kitty

there was no money left in the kitty there was no money left in the kitty

there was no money left in the kitty to get something else. So it was

to get something else. So it was to get something else. So it was

to get something else. So it was either eat that or not at all. That

either eat that or not at all. That either eat that or not at all. That

either eat that or not at all. That is the reality for a billion people

is the reality for a billion people is the reality for a billion people

is the reality for a billion people around the world. It is good to

around the world. It is good to around the world. It is good to

learn these lessons. How realistic learn these lessons. How realistic

learn these lessons. How realistic learn these lessons. How realistic

is this, compared to life in sub is this, compared to life in sub

is this, compared to life in sub Saharan Africa? You will still have

Saharan Africa? You will still have Saharan Africa? You will still have

your electricity, which costs more your electricity, which costs more

your electricity, which costs more your electricity, which costs more

than �1 a day and your water and than �1 a day and your water and

than �1 a day and your water and your sky sports subscription.

your sky sports subscription. your sky sports subscription.

your sky sports subscription. a campaign, not a life choice. It is

a campaign, not a life choice. It is a campaign, not a life choice. It is

not absolutely realistic mode but it not absolutely realistic mode but it

not absolutely realistic mode but it does raise awareness and money. It

does raise awareness and money. It does raise awareness and money. It

does raise awareness and money. It is part of a wider campaign by

is part of a wider campaign by is part of a wider campaign by

everybody involved. Over 30 UK everybody involved. Over 30 UK

everybody involved. Over 30 UK charities are involved this year,

charities are involved this year, charities are involved this year,

charities are involved this year, hoping to raise over �1 million. So

hoping to raise over �1 million. So hoping to raise over �1 million. So

hoping to raise over �1 million. So there is a bigger picture, but this

there is a bigger picture, but this there is a bigger picture, but this

there is a bigger picture, but this is one small step along the way to

is one small step along the way to is one small step along the way to

ending extreme poverty. Good luck. ending extreme poverty. Good luck.

ending extreme poverty. Good luck. ending extreme poverty. Good luck.

Hope you don't get too hungry or too Hope you don't get too hungry or too

Hope you don't get too hungry or too tired. The campaign starts on the

tired. The campaign starts on the tired. The campaign starts on the

tired. The campaign starts on the 29th of April. It is being launched

29th of April. It is being launched 29th of April. It is being launched

today, and Jack will change the today, and Jack will change the

today, and Jack will change the today, and Jack will change the

dates so that he does not miss out dates so that he does not miss out

on any nice dinners. on any nice dinners.

on any nice dinners. You should do it too, Adam.

You should do it too, Adam. You should do it too, Adam.

Julia, is it a worthwhile campaign? Julia, is it a worthwhile campaign?

Julia, is it a worthwhile campaign? Julia, is it a worthwhile campaign?

It is a worthwhile campaign. It is It is a worthwhile campaign. It is

It is a worthwhile campaign. It is not realistic. It does not include

not realistic. It does not include not realistic. It does not include

not realistic. It does not include fuel costs and people are doing it

fuel costs and people are doing it fuel costs and people are doing it

fuel costs and people are doing it for five days and they can look

for five days and they can look for five days and they can look

for five days and they can look forward to the booze and fags and

forward to the booze and fags and forward to the booze and fags and

forward to the booze and fags and whatever at the end. In my view, it

whatever at the end. In my view, it whatever at the end. In my view, it

is hugely important for raising is hugely important for raising

is hugely important for raising awareness. It is fantastically good

awareness. It is fantastically good awareness. It is fantastically good

awareness. It is fantastically good discipline and it is great as a

discipline and it is great as a discipline and it is great as a

fundraiser. The money you don't fundraiser. The money you don't

fundraiser. The money you don't fundraiser. The money you don't

spend on food, you then give to the spend on food, you then give to the

spend on food, you then give to the spend on food, you then give to the

campaign. Does it mimic what goes on campaign. Does it mimic what goes on

campaign. Does it mimic what goes on in sub Saharan Africa? No.

in sub Saharan Africa? No. in sub Saharan Africa? No.

in sub Saharan Africa? No. The war in Iraq had a dramatic

The war in Iraq had a dramatic The war in Iraq had a dramatic

effect on politics and diplomacy in effect on politics and diplomacy in

effect on politics and diplomacy in effect on politics and diplomacy in

this country, in the Middle East and this country, in the Middle East and

this country, in the Middle East and this country, in the Middle East and

across the globe. Ten years on, its across the globe. Ten years on, its

across the globe. Ten years on, its power to provoke controversy and

power to provoke controversy and power to provoke controversy and

heated debate has barely diminished, heated debate has barely diminished,

heated debate has barely diminished, heated debate has barely diminished,

but what has its impact been on Iraq but what has its impact been on Iraq

but what has its impact been on Iraq but what has its impact been on Iraq

itself and on the way the world itself and on the way the world

itself and on the way the world deals with to spot regimes?

deals with to spot regimes? deals with to spot regimes?

-- despotic regimes. I have long -- despotic regimes. I have long

-- despotic regimes. I have long -- despotic regimes. I have long

since given up on try to persuade since given up on try to persuade

since given up on try to persuade people it was the right decision.

people it was the right decision. people it was the right decision.

people it was the right decision. Now I am trying to persuade people

Now I am trying to persuade people Now I am trying to persuade people

to understand how complex and to understand how complex and

to understand how complex and to understand how complex and

difficult a decision it was. 100 and difficult a decision it was. 100 and

difficult a decision it was. 100 and certain -- 179 British personnel

certain -- 179 British personnel certain -- 179 British personnel

killed, a financial cost of more killed, a financial cost of more

killed, a financial cost of more than �9 billion and perhaps more

than �9 billion and perhaps more than �9 billion and perhaps more

than 120,000 civilian lives lost than 120,000 civilian lives lost

than 120,000 civilian lives lost than 120,000 civilian lives lost

since the war began. Ten years on, since the war began. Ten years on,

since the war began. Ten years on, since the war began. Ten years on,

what have we learned from Iraq? what have we learned from Iraq?

what have we learned from Iraq? we look back over the interventions

we look back over the interventions we look back over the interventions

of the last decade, starting with of the last decade, starting with

of the last decade, starting with Iraq in 2003, the most important

Iraq in 2003, the most important Iraq in 2003, the most important

point that comes through is the point that comes through is the

point that comes through is the understanding that the military are

understanding that the military are understanding that the military are

understanding that the military are only part of the solution. They can

only part of the solution. They can only part of the solution. They can

only part of the solution. They can kick the door in, of course, but

kick the door in, of course, but kick the door in, of course, but

kick the door in, of course, but somebody else has to go through the

somebody else has to go through the door politically with developmental

door politically with developmental door politically with developmental

door politically with developmental aid, and it has to be toward elated.

aid, and it has to be toward elated. aid, and it has to be toward elated.

aid, and it has to be toward elated. We have learned time and time again

We have learned time and time again We have learned time and time again

We have learned time and time again that after the first six or eight

that after the first six or eight months, the international community

months, the international community months, the international community

has usually become part of the has usually become part of the

has usually become part of the solution -- part of the problem

solution -- part of the problem solution -- part of the problem

solution -- part of the problem rather than part of the solution. If

rather than part of the solution. If rather than part of the solution. If

we had not removed Saddam Hussein we had not removed Saddam Hussein

we had not removed Saddam Hussein from power, think what would be

from power, think what would be happening with these Arab

happening with these Arab happening with these Arab

revolutions. Saddam Hussein was 20 revolutions. Saddam Hussein was 20

revolutions. Saddam Hussein was 20 revolutions. Saddam Hussein was 20

times as bad as President Assad in times as bad as President Assad in

times as bad as President Assad in Syria. Think of the consequences of

Syria. Think of the consequences of Syria. Think of the consequences of

leaving that regime in power. leaving that regime in power.

leaving that regime in power. many ways, the Iraqi intervention

many ways, the Iraqi intervention many ways, the Iraqi intervention

many ways, the Iraqi intervention came ten years or more too late.

came ten years or more too late. came ten years or more too late.

There was a window of opportunity There was a window of opportunity

There was a window of opportunity There was a window of opportunity

after the first Gulf War in 1991, after the first Gulf War in 1991,

after the first Gulf War in 1991, when the majority of the population

when the majority of the population when the majority of the population

when the majority of the population rose up against Saddam. That was the

rose up against Saddam. That was the rose up against Saddam. That was the

plan they required support from the plan they required support from the

international community. Ten years international community. Ten years

international community. Ten years on, it was mislabelled as an

on, it was mislabelled as an on, it was mislabelled as an

intervention for weapons of mass intervention for weapons of mass

destruction that ultimately were destruction that ultimately were

destruction that ultimately were never found, and that tarnished the

never found, and that tarnished the image of humanitarian intervention.

image of humanitarian intervention. image of humanitarian intervention.

That is to the detriment of That is to the detriment of

That is to the detriment of countries such as Syria now.

countries such as Syria now. countries such as Syria now.

According to Iraq body can, the According to Iraq body can, the

According to Iraq body can, the number of violence of Ilion deaths

number of violence of Ilion deaths number of violence of Ilion deaths

number of violence of Ilion deaths in Iraq in 2012 rose for the first

in Iraq in 2012 rose for the first in Iraq in 2012 rose for the first

in Iraq in 2012 rose for the first time in 23 years. Is there really

time in 23 years. Is there really time in 23 years. Is there really

time in 23 years. Is there really progress? In Iraq, you can see a

progress? In Iraq, you can see a progress? In Iraq, you can see a

sort of disordered success. We sort of disordered success. We

sort of disordered success. We sort of disordered success. We

should not be deceived by the degree should not be deceived by the degree

should not be deceived by the degree of violence into thinking that the

of violence into thinking that the of violence into thinking that the

place is not potentially rich, place is not potentially rich,

place is not potentially rich, because it is. A lot of