Browse content similar to 16/04/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Afternoon. Welcome to the Daily Three dead and more than 140 | :00:45. | :00:48. | |
injured, many critically, in two explosions at the Boston Marathon. | :00:48. | :00:51. | |
We will have the latest on events there and what it means for the | :00:51. | :00:57. | |
Thatcher funeral and the London Marathon here. | :00:57. | :00:59. | |
The government wants to get builders building, allowing house | :00:59. | :01:03. | |
extensions of up to 26 feet without planning permission. But their own | :01:03. | :01:07. | |
MPs are trying to knock down their proposals. | :01:07. | :01:11. | |
An end to scenes like this in Britain's big tops? The government | :01:11. | :01:16. | |
brings forward a bill to ban the use wild animals in circuses. | :01:16. | :01:19. | |
And royalty, politicians and celebs - we will look at who will be | :01:19. | :01:29. | |
:01:29. | :01:31. | ||
rubbing shoulders at Margaret All that in the next hour. With us | :01:31. | :01:34. | |
for the duration, John Kampfner, journalist and campaigner on free | :01:34. | :01:42. | |
speech. We could be doing with having a bit free speech, it is | :01:42. | :01:47. | |
good to have you. Appalling images from Boston last night after two | :01:47. | :01:50. | |
blasts near the finish line of the Boston Marathon. Three people were | :01:50. | :01:54. | |
killed including an eight-year-old boy. Many others are very seriously | :01:54. | :01:58. | |
injured. One policeman said grimly than some of those had run the | :01:58. | :02:01. | |
marathon no longer have their legs. There are also reports that two | :02:01. | :02:05. | |
other unexploded devices were found and disabled. But that is | :02:05. | :02:09. | |
unconfirmed. It is the most serious terrorist attack on the US mainland | :02:09. | :02:13. | |
since the 9/11 attacks. President Obama addressed the nation from the | :02:13. | :02:21. | |
White House last night. We still do not know who did this or wife. | :02:21. | :02:26. | |
People should not jump to conclusions before we have the | :02:26. | :02:30. | |
facts but make no mistakes, we will get to the bottom of this and we | :02:30. | :02:36. | |
will find out to do this, we will find out why they do this. Any | :02:36. | :02:40. | |
responsible individuals, any responsible groups, will feel the | :02:40. | :02:47. | |
full weight of justice. It was clear lap the federal government | :02:47. | :02:51. | |
still had no idea what was behind it and that seems to be the | :02:51. | :02:55. | |
situation this morning -- it was clear then that the federal | :02:55. | :02:58. | |
government. A few minutes ago, I spoke to Laura | :02:58. | :03:01. | |
Trevelyan in Boston. I started by asking her about those injured in | :03:01. | :03:06. | |
the explosions. That is what is so horrific. Especially it took so | :03:06. | :03:13. | |
many of the athletes I have spoken to -- especially to so many. This | :03:13. | :03:17. | |
is the pinnacle of their athletic achievement, they train for years | :03:17. | :03:22. | |
in many occasions, and to have people who were taking part and | :03:22. | :03:26. | |
cheering them on, to have them robbed of their limbs, to have | :03:26. | :03:32. | |
amputations taking place, somebody said to me he came from Canada who | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
finished in under three hours, he said, this strikes at the very core | :03:36. | :03:44. | |
of what we are and we are reeling. And still no firm leads as I | :03:44. | :03:50. | |
understand it as to who was behind this? That is the question that | :03:50. | :03:56. | |
that is being asked across America, who could have done this and why? | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
We have another briefing from the police this morning. We were told | :04:00. | :04:04. | |
by the leading FBI agent yesterday that this is a potential terrorist | :04:04. | :04:10. | |
investigation. Whether that means home-grown terrorists, | :04:10. | :04:15. | |
international extremists, we do not know, and nothing is being said | :04:15. | :04:19. | |
publicly at the moment. But there are some interesting background | :04:19. | :04:25. | |
points to note on the domestic front, which is that no official in | :04:25. | :04:30. | |
forces have been noting that this is traditionally a big week for | :04:30. | :04:37. | |
anti-government groups in America. -- Bill Law enforcement officials. | :04:37. | :04:46. | |
We are coming up to the anniversary of the Oklahoma bombing and the | :04:46. | :04:52. | |
Columbine massacre. But this is conjecture. What we have is the | :04:52. | :04:58. | |
death of three people and well over 100 injured. There are some reports | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
that two other bombs were discovered and disabled but we have | :05:01. | :05:05. | |
not been able to confirm these reports. Do you have anything on | :05:05. | :05:11. | |
that? That was asked last night when the police gave a press | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
conference and they said they would not comment on whether they had | :05:15. | :05:20. | |
found any other explosive devices. One report said the police had | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
found five unexploded devices but that was very quickly backtracked | :05:23. | :05:29. | |
on. As so often is the case in the aftermath, the information is | :05:29. | :05:34. | |
contradictory, the picture is confusing, but the one thing the | :05:34. | :05:37. | |
people of Boston know when they wake up this morning is that their | :05:37. | :05:42. | |
beloved marathon, one of the rites of spring in New England, that day | :05:42. | :05:49. | |
was utterly devastated. It is interesting that the police would | :05:49. | :05:54. | |
not confirm if unexploded bombs have been disabled because if there | :05:54. | :06:00. | |
are bombs that did not go off, they will have a veritable cornucopia of | :06:00. | :06:05. | |
information about who might have been behind this, so that is | :06:05. | :06:11. | |
developing story, if of course it is true. We have not been able to | :06:11. | :06:14. | |
confirm that. I am joined now by Stephen | :06:15. | :06:17. | |
Greenhalgh, who runs the Mayor of London's office for policing and | :06:17. | :06:23. | |
crime. And by former Security Minister Admiral Alan West. Why | :06:23. | :06:31. | |
would the police not confirm if other bombs had been disabled? | :06:31. | :06:37. | |
have hit the nail on the head. When they start pulling it apart and | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
find the components, that can give you an immense amount of detail. | :06:40. | :06:45. | |
That is why such huge amount of effort goes into the bomb blast | :06:45. | :06:49. | |
area to find every bit of a bomb and in this country we are | :06:49. | :06:55. | |
amazingly good at that. It enables to find where bombs are being made, | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
who provides components, so it is a treasure trove and that is probably | :06:59. | :07:05. | |
the reason. Also you get so much information and a lot of this will | :07:05. | :07:09. | |
not be correct and that is why you have to be very calm and wait until | :07:09. | :07:14. | |
it comes in. And it is why we emphasise that the reports of | :07:14. | :07:20. | |
unexploded bombs are unconcerned. I would suggest that if this was Al- | :07:21. | :07:24. | |
Qaeda or something similar, or would we not have expected to have | :07:24. | :07:32. | |
heard from them by now? We probably would have done. I personally, this | :07:32. | :07:36. | |
is my own opinion, would be surprised if it isn't a Al-Qaeda | :07:36. | :07:43. | |
attack. I am afraid -- I would be surprised if it is an Al-Qaeda | :07:43. | :07:52. | |
attack. There have been many attacks I am afraid, the attacks on | :07:52. | :07:57. | |
the Cleveland Bridge, in a high EO, but normally those sorts of | :07:57. | :08:06. | |
bombings are against government targets -- in Ohio. This | :08:06. | :08:16. | |
unfortunately is very like Islamic extremist terrorism. I assume that | :08:16. | :08:19. | |
although there may be meetings about Margaret Thatcher's funeral | :08:19. | :08:25. | |
as a result of Boston, not much more need to be done. There are | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
comprehensive policing plans in place obviously for the funeral, as | :08:28. | :08:33. | |
for all public events like the London Marathon. The London | :08:33. | :08:36. | |
Marathon is in a different category from the funeral and more difficult | :08:36. | :08:41. | |
to police, I would suggest. Absolutely because people bring | :08:41. | :08:44. | |
things when they go running. All these things have been policed in | :08:45. | :08:49. | |
the past and the plants are in place. The question is, what can | :08:49. | :08:53. | |
you do more for something like the London Marathon and that is where | :08:54. | :08:59. | |
we need everybody to be as vigilant as possible. A clearly Margaret | :08:59. | :09:04. | |
Thatcher's funeral will be policed for a terrorist attack. Yes, there | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
is a balance between a terrorist threat and a public order | :09:08. | :09:13. | |
demonstration. Would we police a marathon for a terrorist attack? | :09:13. | :09:19. | |
Any large event. The threat levels in this country are substantial, | :09:19. | :09:23. | |
that means a strong possibility of a terrorist attack, and everything | :09:23. | :09:31. | |
is planned on that basis. We always touch wood because you only need to | :09:31. | :09:36. | |
be lucky ones, but we are very good at Bad And I would have no concerns | :09:36. | :09:41. | |
about going to either of these events -- and certainly I would | :09:41. | :09:45. | |
have no concerns. What could the police do more that they were not | :09:45. | :09:51. | |
all would be planning to do? mayor and I have been in touch with | :09:51. | :09:56. | |
Bernard Hogan-Howe and the good news is there are comprehensive | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
plans in place. Clearly you can search more and you can get the | :10:00. | :10:05. | |
help from the public. Anything that looks suspicious, anything that is | :10:05. | :10:10. | |
concerning two people, there will be a strong police presence at both | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
events so we need the public to play their part and we need to make | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
sure maybe we search a bit more then we may have planned to do but | :10:17. | :10:25. | |
the plans are in place. In a way, we have been lucky and also we have | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
benefited from a great intelligence, because there had been so many | :10:28. | :10:35. | |
attempts to do a Boston or a version of a Boston. What is | :10:35. | :10:38. | |
fascinating with this is clearly their intelligence agencies had no | :10:38. | :10:42. | |
indication whatsoever that something was going to happen and | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
our greatest defence is the security service and police | :10:47. | :10:50. | |
intelligence agency in this country. We monitor hundreds of people, many | :10:50. | :10:55. | |
of whom are British, who wish to do the nation harm. We saw a case | :10:55. | :11:00. | |
going through at the moment. That is the way we are able to prevent | :11:00. | :11:05. | |
something happening. The dangers are there loners who we are not | :11:05. | :11:09. | |
able to monitor. People who we do not have on file, who do it on | :11:09. | :11:15. | |
their own bat, and also it is hard with right-wing extremists. We have | :11:15. | :11:18. | |
had occasions in the past. In America they have a real problem | :11:18. | :11:23. | |
with that sort of threat and they can be very violent. It is unusual | :11:23. | :11:28. | |
they aim to kill people randomly. That is very much an Al-Qaeda way | :11:28. | :11:37. | |
of doing things. But it was a federal building... I am struck by | :11:37. | :11:46. | |
two words that Lord West used. Balance and calm. I was struck not | :11:46. | :11:51. | |
just by President Obama's statement but also the Governor of | :11:51. | :11:56. | |
Massachusetts this morning. Thankfully, in spite of the carnage | :11:56. | :12:02. | |
and the terrible events and the pictures, I am quite reassured by | :12:02. | :12:07. | |
the way the US administration is dealing with it, which is, this is | :12:08. | :12:13. | |
a terrorist attack. He did not use that word. The commentators in | :12:13. | :12:17. | |
America are wondering. It is clearly a terrorist attack but we | :12:17. | :12:23. | |
do not know who is behind it. Why didn't he say that? Obviously this | :12:23. | :12:30. | |
is truly awful but it is on a different scale to 9/11. A little | :12:30. | :12:35. | |
boy was killed in Warrington, that was still a terrorist attack. | :12:35. | :12:41. | |
said an act of terror rather than terrorism. But I was struck by the | :12:41. | :12:45. | |
sobriety and the lack of rhetoric and flowery language that George | :12:46. | :12:54. | |
Bush often 9/11 and this panoply. George Bush's initial reaction was | :12:54. | :13:01. | |
to be struck dumb by the scale of it! We will leave it there. There | :13:01. | :13:06. | |
will be more on BBC News throughout the day. Thank you for joining us. | :13:06. | :13:10. | |
We hope tomorrow and Sunday go off in the usual British way of | :13:10. | :13:20. | |
:13:20. | :13:21. | ||
everything being fine. One of the key developments to | :13:21. | :13:24. | |
emerge from the Arab Spring has been the use by activists of social | :13:24. | :13:27. | |
media to spread revolt and bring it to the attention of the outside | :13:27. | :13:30. | |
world. From Tunisia to Egypt to Syria, Twitter, Facebook and | :13:30. | :13:33. | |
YouTube have allowed protesters to organise and indeed, televise their | :13:33. | :13:38. | |
attempts to bring about regime change. But is the impact of social | :13:38. | :13:42. | |
media on the wane and are the very governments which were once at risk | :13:42. | :13:44. | |
from it beginning to harness its power to neutralise their | :13:44. | :13:54. | |
:13:54. | :14:03. | ||
These days revolutions are televised and none more so than the | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
Arab Spring but not so much by professional correspondence as by | :14:07. | :14:12. | |
images taken on mobile phones and activists to use social media to | :14:12. | :14:17. | |
spread revolt. These are some of those activists talking to me | :14:17. | :14:27. | |
:14:27. | :14:29. | ||
directly from Syria on Skype. has happened without Facebook? | :14:29. | :14:35. | |
is a very tiny village in the countryside but we can fill it. | :14:35. | :14:42. | |
has taken and played a good part in the revolution. We have seen | :14:42. | :14:47. | |
protesters using social media to mobilise, filming footage that gets | :14:47. | :14:53. | |
picked up by film stations, Al- Jazeera, and that name gets | :14:53. | :14:59. | |
broadcast back to the country. of the key players has been this | :14:59. | :15:03. | |
campaigning organisation. They have helped get footage shot by | :15:03. | :15:06. | |
protesters onto mainstream TV but they are also aware that it | :15:06. | :15:10. | |
activists want to use social media as a weapon, so do the Government's | :15:10. | :15:16. | |
they are trying to overthrow. of them are trying to outdo the | :15:16. | :15:20. | |
other, regimes trying to listen in but also activists trying to | :15:20. | :15:26. | |
increase their ability to operate without being snooped on. We are | :15:26. | :15:31. | |
aware of drones being used in Syria. Iranians are giving support to | :15:31. | :15:41. | |
:15:41. | :16:14. | ||
use it in more powerful way. Footage of what is happening will be | :16:14. | :16:15. | |
immediately available internationally and across the | :16:15. | :16:20. | |
country itself in a way that hasn't in the case in the past. Social | :16:21. | :16:24. | |
media didn't invent revolt but it did bring it into our living rooms | :16:24. | :16:27. | |
in almost real time and that is a power that protesters and those they | :16:27. | :16:32. | |
are trying to topple are desperate to harness. | :16:32. | :16:36. | |
We are joined now by journalist Nabila Ramdani, who specialises in | :16:36. | :16:43. | |
the Arab world, and John Kampfner, who campaigns on freedom of speech. | :16:43. | :16:48. | |
I am going to Tunisia and Beirut soon. I'll be right to say that we | :16:48. | :16:54. | |
remember in the early days of the Arab spring, also into an easier, | :16:54. | :16:57. | |
social media was being used by the insurgents as a way to get their | :16:57. | :17:02. | |
story across inland is where the media was almost entirely controlled | :17:02. | :17:07. | |
by the state. Is it now right to say the new governments are using social | :17:07. | :17:12. | |
media to control what gets out? Absolutely. There is no doubt that | :17:12. | :17:16. | |
the social media was indeed a catalyst, especially at the start of | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
the revolutions, and played a pivotal role in effectively putting | :17:20. | :17:24. | |
the problems of the Arab world of the global agenda. Having said | :17:24. | :17:30. | |
that, it didn't quite lead to regime change. We would be naive to assume | :17:30. | :17:34. | |
that. It was a powerful trigger which was supported by traditional | :17:34. | :17:41. | |
media. We are seeing now, regimes in the rest of the Arab world getting | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
increasingly jittery about what is happening in the region, using | :17:45. | :17:48. | |
social media to keep tabs on the activities of political dissidents | :17:48. | :17:56. | |
will stop so that is the case in the new Egypt, where the new president | :17:56. | :18:00. | |
is using old laws to crack down not only on traditional media but also | :18:00. | :18:06. | |
on Internet dissidents. In Gulf countries in particular, we have | :18:06. | :18:11. | |
well-documented evidence of Internet dissidents having been arrested, | :18:11. | :18:18. | |
tortured and indeed jailed. In the Gulf? Countries like Bahrain, Saudi | :18:18. | :18:23. | |
Arabia and even Qatar. Interestingly, in Syria, where | :18:23. | :18:27. | |
Facebook was banned before the revolution, it has now been allowed | :18:27. | :18:29. | |
by the government in order to monitor the activities of | :18:29. | :18:36. | |
dissidents. So we are seeing how governments use social media, either | :18:36. | :18:41. | |
to prevent dissent or put across their own messages. It is depressing | :18:41. | :18:47. | |
in a way, because we used to think, perhaps wrongly, naively, that | :18:47. | :18:53. | |
social media, the Internet, text in, they were kind of anarchic. | :18:53. | :18:56. | |
Governments couldn't control them. They were the people's weapons of | :18:56. | :19:03. | |
information. That was the great hope of the founders of the Internet. It | :19:03. | :19:08. | |
was originally called the wild West, now it is anything but. It is right | :19:08. | :19:12. | |
about the Middle East, but it is not just the middle east, but | :19:12. | :19:15. | |
everywhere, Russia introduced a pretty awful Internet filtering law | :19:15. | :19:22. | |
in November and China proselytisers, as a patriotic duty, this whole | :19:22. | :19:30. | |
thing. It is not just monitoring what people write and what they say, | :19:30. | :19:37. | |
it is also going into people 's computers, using technology to find | :19:37. | :19:42. | |
out where they are, what they are doing. Your whole life is on your | :19:42. | :19:47. | |
computer! Absolutely. Platforms are platforms, and they change behaviour | :19:47. | :19:53. | |
through the communication. So the speed of medication has changed | :19:53. | :19:56. | |
exponentially, being able to get people out on the streets, you can | :19:57. | :20:03. | |
do that just like this. But I am old enough to remember, as a young | :20:03. | :20:06. | |
journalist, I covered the fall of the Berlin Wall and the end of | :20:06. | :20:14. | |
coming as in the Soviet Union, there was none of this. Mobile phones? | :20:14. | :20:18. | |
Even before that period, people still got out, but it was much | :20:18. | :20:24. | |
slower. It doesn't change behaviour but it does change the speed. | :20:24. | :20:27. | |
not just talking about authoritarian regimes. We have to be careful in | :20:27. | :20:32. | |
any society, we heard David Cameron calling for Twitter and Facebook to | :20:32. | :20:36. | |
be curtailed during the London riots. London police will be | :20:36. | :20:40. | |
monitoring social media in the run-up to tomorrow's funeral. | :20:40. | :20:47. | |
is the issue, there are legitimate states, child pornography, everyone | :20:47. | :20:51. | |
says it is terrible therefore we need to ban it and keep tabs on who | :20:51. | :20:56. | |
is doing it. Terrorism, as we were discussing, copyright is a really | :20:56. | :21:02. | |
interesting one. But what is happening, you are right, it is not | :21:02. | :21:08. | |
just authoritarian states, in the UK we saw off to Reza maze misguided | :21:08. | :21:12. | |
bill which would have not just been extremely intrusive in terms of | :21:12. | :21:17. | |
tracking people, you don't just TrackBack people, you track | :21:17. | :21:23. | |
everybody in the hope that you will find something. But is also carte | :21:23. | :21:31. | |
blanche to the dictators. The Arab spring is 18 months old now, more | :21:31. | :21:37. | |
than two years. Are we now in a position to say that in general, the | :21:37. | :21:41. | |
governments that have replaced the previous governments are better, or | :21:41. | :21:46. | |
worse, when it comes to this kind of thing? I think transitions are | :21:46. | :21:52. | |
always chaotic and can be extremely messy. You can go backwards. I was | :21:53. | :22:00. | |
quoting the example of Egypt's, where there is no question -- how | :22:00. | :22:06. | |
can you go even further back than Mubarak? There is no progress. But I | :22:06. | :22:11. | |
just want to point out the role that Google played in Egypt, when the | :22:11. | :22:15. | |
Internet got shut down, it provided alternative services, where you | :22:15. | :22:20. | |
could literally phone in a tweet and it could be picked up without an | :22:20. | :22:26. | |
Internet connection needed. Will we see the similar technology being | :22:26. | :22:33. | |
provided to Saudi Arabia? We will see. Thank you for being with us. | :22:33. | :22:38. | |
So, it is the London Marathon on Sunday, an event that is going to | :22:38. | :22:43. | |
feel the impact of last nights events in Boston. A number of MPs | :22:43. | :22:49. | |
will be running, Adam is outside Parliament with a couple of them. | :22:49. | :22:54. | |
Normally it would be traditional to have a bunch of MPs at this time of | :22:54. | :22:57. | |
year to have MPs in their running shoes during a photocall. That has | :22:58. | :23:04. | |
been postponed in respect to people in Boston. But I am joined by two | :23:04. | :23:08. | |
MPs who will be running around London this weekend, Nicky Morgan | :23:08. | :23:14. | |
and Jim Murphy. We will talk about your preparations in a second, but | :23:14. | :23:17. | |
first of all, Boston, what did you think I'm a knowing you will be | :23:17. | :23:23. | |
running a marathon in a couple of days time? Just tragic. Everyone | :23:23. | :23:27. | |
says the atmosphere will be amazing, at the finish line, there are lots | :23:27. | :23:31. | |
of people waiting there, carnival atmosphere, completely ruined within | :23:31. | :23:36. | |
a matter of seconds. We were looking forward to it and now Sunday is | :23:36. | :23:41. | |
going to have a lot more poignancy for everyone running. A lot of | :23:41. | :23:43. | |
people talking about how preparations for the London Marathon | :23:43. | :23:49. | |
will be different, how do you think they will be affected? It is too | :23:49. | :23:53. | |
early to say who carried out the atrocity, but I think it is right | :23:53. | :23:56. | |
for the security forces here to look again and look afresh at whatever | :23:56. | :24:01. | |
arrangements they can look at in terms of the security. But it is | :24:01. | :24:06. | |
very difficult, it is an open cities, 26 miles, hundreds of | :24:06. | :24:11. | |
thousands of spectators, free access along the roads. My response is | :24:11. | :24:15. | |
initially a sense of shock but it is now determination. I have never run | :24:15. | :24:22. | |
a marathon before, and I really want to do it, after Boston, I have never | :24:22. | :24:26. | |
been more certain that I do want to run a marathon. That is my message | :24:26. | :24:30. | |
to everyone who is thinking of running. My inclination is, don't | :24:30. | :24:36. | |
let it put you off. Whoever carried that attack out should not dictate | :24:36. | :24:41. | |
to us in the UK how we live our lives. Come, spectate, participate, | :24:41. | :24:46. | |
run your best, that is my message. Thank you to those reactions. In | :24:46. | :24:50. | |
terms of your preparations, how has the training been going? It has been | :24:50. | :24:54. | |
all right. I'm grateful that we have had Parliament in recess for a | :24:54. | :25:00. | |
couple of weeks, it has given me a chance to run during the day. | :25:00. | :25:05. | |
Sometimes you are trying to combine it all the parliamentary duties. I | :25:05. | :25:11. | |
have done 26 miles, I should be running, they ask you to taper off | :25:11. | :25:16. | |
for the last few days. But it is excitement mixed with nervousness. I | :25:16. | :25:20. | |
have never done a full marathon before, I have done a couple of half | :25:20. | :25:24. | |
marathons, the thought of getting to 13 miles and then having another 13 | :25:24. | :25:30. | |
to do is really quite something! People always give you advice, what | :25:30. | :25:40. | |
:25:40. | :25:40. | ||
is the best bit of advice you have had? Don't do it!Too late! There is | :25:40. | :25:46. | |
an endless amount of advice. My advice is, don't take any advice. On | :25:46. | :25:52. | |
all these online running blogs, they say concentrate on your breathing. | :25:52. | :25:58. | |
My arms move this way, I know how to move my arms! Land your weight on | :25:58. | :26:04. | |
this but, I know how to do all that, but I have been bamboozled. How do I | :26:04. | :26:08. | |
breathe, how do I move my arms? Forget all that, do what comes | :26:08. | :26:14. | |
naturally. But they can ignore that advice as well! Are you prepared for | :26:14. | :26:23. | |
the wall? I am hoping I just get through it. I have been training in | :26:23. | :26:27. | |
Glasgow at strange times at night when the kids go to bed. I am ready | :26:27. | :26:35. | |
for anything! Good luck on Sunday, we will be watching. Shall we have | :26:35. | :26:41. | |
our usual fish and chips for lunch? I will look forward to that! I think | :26:41. | :26:46. | |
that advice, don't do it, is pretty good advice, I am going to follow | :26:46. | :26:52. | |
it! Though running in Glasgow the two hours in the middle of the | :26:52. | :26:58. | |
night, brave man... Our home is our castle, and we are in love with home | :26:58. | :27:01. | |
improvement and DIY programmes. The government wants to help us along by | :27:01. | :27:05. | |
making it easier for us to extend them and in the process give the | :27:05. | :27:10. | |
building sector and economy eight used. Ministers announced last year | :27:10. | :27:14. | |
that they intended a three-year relaxation of the depth of allowed | :27:14. | :27:20. | |
single-storey extensions, from 13 feet to 26 feet four detached houses | :27:20. | :27:26. | |
and from ten feet to 20 feet fall of the houses. Critics argue that this | :27:26. | :27:30. | |
relaxation of planning rules will lead to a rise in disputes between | :27:30. | :27:35. | |
neighbours. The policy has also led to a dispute between the planning | :27:35. | :27:40. | |
minister and some Tory and Lib Dem MPs. Today they will vote for an | :27:41. | :27:43. | |
amendment which would give local authorities the option of projecting | :27:43. | :27:51. | |
the new rules in their area. -- rejecting the new rules. We asked | :27:51. | :27:53. | |
the government for a minister to defend their plans but no one was | :27:54. | :27:59. | |
available. Probably building their conservatories! Joining me to | :27:59. | :28:05. | |
discuss this are one of the rebel MPs, and Brian Berry from the | :28:05. | :28:11. | |
Federation of Master Builders. What is wrong with this? I think the | :28:12. | :28:15. | |
clear position is that if you want to put an extension made Robert E, | :28:15. | :28:19. | |
the first thing you do is talk to your neighbours, and the second | :28:19. | :28:22. | |
thing you do is make sure you have an architect or builder who is | :28:22. | :28:25. | |
properly qualified to do the job, advise you what the planning | :28:26. | :28:29. | |
authority will allow and submit an application which will hopefully | :28:29. | :28:34. | |
sail through and you will get approval. In 87% of the cases where | :28:34. | :28:39. | |
we talk about these extensions, that is approved to stop it costs people | :28:39. | :28:44. | |
roughly �250 for an application. The government is proposing to relax the | :28:44. | :28:48. | |
rules which will allow people to do permitted development, don't bother | :28:48. | :28:54. | |
talking to your neighbours, build what you want within the rules, and | :28:54. | :28:56. | |
hopefully you will apply for a certificate of lawful development. | :28:56. | :29:02. | |
The problem is that you pay a fee for that and the builder has long | :29:02. | :29:06. | |
gone, you are left with an extension that probably doesn't fit the | :29:06. | :29:16. | |
:29:16. | :29:17. | ||
rules, you may have to take it down or skeleton act. -- scale it back. | :29:17. | :29:21. | |
If 80% and percent of these applications are approved, why do we | :29:21. | :29:26. | |
need to change? I think we need to have fixed ability for homeowners. | :29:26. | :29:32. | |
But if 87% are approved, haven't we got that fixed ability? We want to | :29:32. | :29:37. | |
make the planning system simpler and easier for householders, this is an | :29:37. | :29:40. | |
option where people can extend their properties, it is only | :29:40. | :29:47. | |
single-storey. We're talking three metres for a terraced house. You | :29:47. | :29:51. | |
will still need to have welding control to check it, it is not a | :29:51. | :29:56. | |
question of building it without any control -- building control. Also | :29:56. | :30:03. | |
the cost can mount up to �2000 in certain cases. It is higher than | :30:04. | :30:08. | |
that if you want planning permission. Surely it is only right | :30:08. | :30:14. | |
that people who want to extend their homes they have the right to do so. | :30:14. | :30:18. | |
If you put a planning application in, the local authority will consult | :30:18. | :30:22. | |
the neighbours and in the neighbours get the chance to say, this is going | :30:22. | :30:25. | |
to be overbearing, it will take my light away, invaded by a provision. | :30:25. | :30:30. | |
If you stay lit back, I'm happy to compromise. What will happen under | :30:30. | :30:34. | |
these proposals is they will be no consultation with the neighbours. | :30:34. | :30:39. | |
There was never a week went by without me having to deal with a | :30:39. | :30:42. | |
planning application where somebody wanted to put an extension on the | :30:42. | :30:46. | |
neighbours disputed it. What happens with the authority is they then | :30:46. | :30:56. | |
:30:56. | :31:02. | ||
mediate. People have the right to If I looked out of my back window | :31:02. | :31:06. | |
one morning and discovered something that was 26 ft have been | :31:06. | :31:12. | |
built next door to me, I would be a bit miffed. Most people want to | :31:12. | :31:15. | |
have good relations with their neighbours so they are going to | :31:15. | :31:21. | |
talk to their neighbours. The have not met my neighbours. We have a | :31:21. | :31:27. | |
housing crisis in this country. We are only building half the number | :31:27. | :31:33. | |
of houses required. People cannot afford to move and need to have | :31:33. | :31:37. | |
that flexibility. If we are putting in relaxation to extend the | :31:37. | :31:46. | |
property, single-storey, that has to be a good thing. Your government | :31:46. | :31:51. | |
says we need more building jobs, it will help get the economy going, it | :31:51. | :31:56. | |
will be small businesses doing this, and that will put money in people's | :31:56. | :32:04. | |
pockets, and also a lot of people cannot afford to move. I would | :32:04. | :32:07. | |
completely agree and if we had a position where home improvements | :32:08. | :32:12. | |
were stalled, but we are talking about 90% of the applications | :32:12. | :32:18. | |
sailing through. It depends on the local authority you live in. The | :32:18. | :32:25. | |
lots and lots... We also have a lot of people who buy up property is | :32:25. | :32:29. | |
especially in London and then they put on the maximum possible | :32:29. | :32:33. | |
extension, they let out the premises and pile people into | :32:34. | :32:39. | |
living is extensions in a very unacceptable manner. This is for | :32:39. | :32:44. | |
England only. This seems a random measure. What we need is more homes | :32:44. | :32:49. | |
in this country and also of the worst manifestation of planning | :32:49. | :32:54. | |
laws and bureaucracy are our big infrastructure projects. Look how | :32:54. | :33:00. | |
long in London it has taken to get cross roll up and running, 20 years. | :33:00. | :33:08. | |
I broke the story in 1986! CrossRail. If we want to get the | :33:08. | :33:14. | |
economy going, we have to get going on infrastructure, railway lines, | :33:14. | :33:20. | |
the get the country running in terms of the grand projects, as the | :33:20. | :33:27. | |
French call them. But we do need to build more homes. I would love to | :33:27. | :33:31. | |
see the government kick-start the housing market. Why don't the | :33:31. | :33:35. | |
builders just get on with it? First-time buyers find it very hard | :33:35. | :33:40. | |
because of the lack of mortgage availability. Another thing to help | :33:40. | :33:44. | |
the building industry would be to reduce VAT on repair and | :33:44. | :33:50. | |
maintenance to 5%. We each they did in France. Yes and it was a fiscal | :33:50. | :33:56. | |
success. If the government was very serious I think we need to see | :33:56. | :34:00. | |
attempts to kick-start the housing market. Her will win on the | :34:00. | :34:06. | |
politics of this? We will see what happens. -- who will win? Labour | :34:06. | :34:13. | |
are backing you? About 20 Tories are backing us and some Lib Dems. I | :34:13. | :34:18. | |
will vote against. I am voting in favour of the amendment that went | :34:18. | :34:22. | |
through in the House of Lords which allows local authorities to set | :34:22. | :34:29. | |
their own rules. Good local list policy. But it will never happen! | :34:29. | :34:34. | |
We have a contradiction here. have to leave it there. | :34:34. | :34:37. | |
At one time, no self-respecting circus master would be without an | :34:37. | :34:41. | |
elephant, tiger or lion in their big-top. But in recent years the | :34:41. | :34:49. | |
practice has diminished. In Britain only a handful of circuses use wild | :34:49. | :34:51. | |
animals and revelations of cruel treatment of those animals has | :34:51. | :34:55. | |
increased pressure for an outright ban. Today the government has | :34:55. | :34:58. | |
outlined plans to introduce such a ban after pressure from MPs on all | :34:58. | :35:01. | |
sides, not least the Conservative backbencher Mark Pritchard, who | :35:01. | :35:08. | |
faced considerable resistance from Number 10. I was told unless I | :35:08. | :35:13. | |
withdraw this motion that the Prime Minister himself said that he would | :35:13. | :35:20. | |
look upon it very dimly indeed. Will I have a message for the whips | :35:20. | :35:26. | |
and for the Prime Minister of our country. I have a message. I may | :35:26. | :35:30. | |
just be a little council house lad from a very poor background but | :35:30. | :35:34. | |
that background gives me a backbone and a thick skin and I am not going | :35:34. | :35:39. | |
to be kowtowed by the whips or even the Prime Minister of my country on | :35:39. | :35:42. | |
an issue that I feel passionately about and that I have conviction | :35:42. | :35:47. | |
about! And Mark Prichard is with me now. | :35:47. | :35:53. | |
The lad from the council house. Are you getting your way? I am | :35:53. | :35:57. | |
delighted that the government is finally bringing about the ban. The | :35:57. | :36:03. | |
last government did not do it. Credit to this government, it is | :36:03. | :36:09. | |
introducing a ban from 2015. It is a great day for animal welfare. | :36:09. | :36:14. | |
Newspapers like the Independent, my constituents have been a support, | :36:14. | :36:19. | |
animal welfare charities, and the government has listened to the | :36:19. | :36:25. | |
public opinion. 96% want to see an outright ban. A good day for Animal | :36:25. | :36:28. | |
Welfare, a good day for the government because the government | :36:28. | :36:35. | |
has listened. But on that clip, the heavies were putting the moves on | :36:35. | :36:39. | |
you to stop you proselytising this idea. Now you say the government is | :36:39. | :36:46. | |
for it? What changed? The government to the view that the | :36:46. | :36:49. | |
unanimous support of the House of Commons mattered. They said they | :36:49. | :36:55. | |
would respect the will of parliament. They have taken on | :36:55. | :36:58. | |
board public opinion. A lot of people have written to Number Ten | :36:59. | :37:03. | |
since that debate setting out their own views. A lot of us have been | :37:03. | :37:08. | |
working behind the scenes and with ministers and officials but credit | :37:08. | :37:13. | |
where it is due, the government has listened. The last government did | :37:13. | :37:19. | |
not bring forward a ban. Where is the politics and where is the | :37:19. | :37:24. | |
policy in trying to stop you doing what you were trying to do? Why | :37:24. | :37:34. | |
:37:34. | :37:35. | ||
were they so upset? That is still a mystery. But that is history. | :37:35. | :37:40. | |
but why? That is a question for historians and distinguished | :37:40. | :37:43. | |
journalists. I respect the whips but I am not afraid of them and | :37:43. | :37:48. | |
they know that. Many of them have moved into ministerial positions | :37:48. | :37:53. | |
now so we have a different whips office but I think the whips | :37:53. | :37:58. | |
realised, most of them realise if they are sensible, it is best to | :37:58. | :38:06. | |
work alongside colleagues wherever possible without resorting to | :38:06. | :38:11. | |
alternative tactics that are sometimes unhelpful. It must mean | :38:11. | :38:17. | |
the end of circuses as we know them. Not at all. There are many | :38:17. | :38:21. | |
successful commercial circuses around the world, Cirque du Soleil | :38:21. | :38:30. | |
of, and Bolivia has just banned wild animals in circuses, Austria... | :38:30. | :38:34. | |
The French banned it some time ago. I am sure somebody but e-mail if I | :38:34. | :38:44. | |
:38:44. | :38:44. | ||
am wrong. -- will send any now. the idea of a circus that we see in | :38:44. | :38:50. | |
the movies, the Billy Smart's Circus stuff, which we see in many | :38:50. | :38:55. | |
movies, that will be over. That might seem quaint and I remember | :38:55. | :39:01. | |
when I was young I was dragged along to circuses, but a lot of | :39:01. | :39:04. | |
these animals are transported and house in cramped and cool | :39:04. | :39:11. | |
conditions. I am not arguing that. What will happen to the elephants? | :39:11. | :39:18. | |
I do not accept it will be the end of circuses. As we know it.Yes, | :39:18. | :39:22. | |
they will develop in a new way and change the way they do things. | :39:22. | :39:27. | |
will happen to the animals? I hope they will be put in to rescue | :39:27. | :39:32. | |
centres and rehoused. Does the legislation take care of that? | :39:32. | :39:37. | |
These details will be worked out with DEFRA, but from 2015 onwards, | :39:37. | :39:42. | |
we will not have a new generation of wild animals exploited for | :39:42. | :39:47. | |
profit in this country. It is a good day for animal welfare and for | :39:47. | :39:50. | |
the party of William Wilberforce, it is a proud day for the | :39:51. | :39:55. | |
Conservative Party. Thank you. Well we have had the late-night | :39:55. | :39:58. | |
deal, the criticism from the papers, and delight from the celebrities | :39:58. | :40:02. | |
they tormented. Next month the Queen will sign off a new regime | :40:02. | :40:07. | |
that is supposed to regulate the press. But not everyone is happy | :40:07. | :40:10. | |
and it is going to take a lot convince editors, from the | :40:10. | :40:15. | |
Telegraph to the Guardian, to sign up to the new system. Three of the | :40:15. | :40:18. | |
main players who agreed the deal are before MPs at the Culture, | :40:18. | :40:21. | |
Media and Sport Committee this morning. Let's see what has been | :40:21. | :40:28. | |
said. The work that has been done since November will mean that there | :40:28. | :40:32. | |
is a very strong reason why either press of this country would want to | :40:32. | :40:37. | |
take part in this new system of self regulation. There are clear | :40:37. | :40:44. | |
incentives and clear disincentives for not taking part Rostock that is | :40:44. | :40:49. | |
the premise that Lord Justice Leveson set out in his report, that | :40:49. | :40:56. | |
is what we followed. We believe very strongly that the system that | :40:56. | :41:01. | |
we have discussed in parliament on a number of occasions will provide | :41:01. | :41:04. | |
absolutely the right basis for us to move forward on. We are | :41:04. | :41:08. | |
convinced that this is the right way forward and that the press will | :41:08. | :41:15. | |
want to take part in it. It seems to me it a dereliction of duty not | :41:15. | :41:18. | |
to think through the consequences of people not signing up to | :41:18. | :41:23. | |
something. In industry, if somebody showed that level of lack of | :41:23. | :41:29. | |
foresight and planning, I would not be particularly encouraged. The we | :41:29. | :41:36. | |
disagree. We are optimists about the press. We think they will come | :41:36. | :41:42. | |
forward and set up a regulatory body and seek recognition. We would | :41:42. | :41:48. | |
like to have confidence... This is not about what the press and | :41:48. | :41:53. | |
politicians want, it is about the victims to deserve protection and | :41:53. | :41:59. | |
there must be a momentum. Have you any doubts that we will get to | :41:59. | :42:03. | |
completion with this? We will certainly get to a conclusion | :42:03. | :42:08. | |
because we will set up a charter that will have a recognition panel | :42:08. | :42:11. | |
and that will lead to the incentives for people to want to | :42:11. | :42:15. | |
take part in this process. One of the most vocal campaigners | :42:15. | :42:19. | |
for regulation of the press is the Labour MP Chris Bryant. He told the | :42:20. | :42:22. | |
Leveson Inquiry about how his private life had been splashed all | :42:22. | :42:29. | |
over the tabloids and he joins me now. John Kampfner is still with us. | :42:29. | :42:34. | |
It looks like you have called a party and nobody is coming. That is | :42:34. | :42:43. | |
one way of putting it! No, I disagree. The Royal Charter has not | :42:44. | :42:48. | |
actually gone to the privy council yet. That will happen in May. The | :42:48. | :42:53. | |
legislation has not got Royal Assent yet. Until those two things | :42:53. | :42:58. | |
are in place it will be too early to decide. We learned this morning | :42:58. | :43:01. | |
that the government is not even in discussions with the newspapers | :43:01. | :43:06. | |
about what to do next to. I think the government should be in | :43:06. | :43:11. | |
discussions. Everybody agrees, including the newspaper owners, but | :43:11. | :43:16. | |
the PCC was inappropriate, it did not meet the needs of the families | :43:16. | :43:23. | |
in Hills's brother, a carcass other people, -- countless other people, | :43:23. | :43:28. | |
like Christopher Jefferies and so many other people. I think if the | :43:28. | :43:32. | |
press are honest, I hope they will sit down and look at what they can | :43:32. | :43:37. | |
do to abide by this but not least because that is what most punters | :43:37. | :43:41. | |
to buy their newspapers want and what operates in Ireland, in the | :43:41. | :43:47. | |
Republic of Ireland. But without anybody moaning! Except that the | :43:47. | :43:51. | |
government want to toughen it up. One newspaper executive said to me | :43:51. | :43:56. | |
this morning that his fear is that the ratchet only goes one way. This | :43:56. | :44:04. | |
will never be lighter and. Are no, no. I have heard all the hyperbole. | :44:04. | :44:10. | |
I have never read so much hyperbole in my life. But you go to party | :44:10. | :44:17. | |
conference! He just listen to them! -- you just listen! I thought the | :44:17. | :44:21. | |
press did itself an enormous disservice when it ran all these | :44:21. | :44:27. | |
articles for days on end, I mean, self-serving. If a journalist ever | :44:27. | :44:31. | |
accuses me of being self-serving again I was slapped them up round | :44:31. | :44:37. | |
the face with a hat-trick. I don't think that is allowed! | :44:37. | :44:45. | |
Metaphorically. But you are in some trouble. Never mind the Daily Mail, | :44:45. | :44:50. | |
the Telegraph, even the Times. As things stand, you can't even get | :44:50. | :44:57. | |
the Guardian to sign up to this. as far as I know. I am not involved | :44:57. | :45:01. | |
in these discussions. I hope the government will pursue what we have | :45:01. | :45:08. | |
got to do. We have got to get the Privy charted in place. All the | :45:08. | :45:12. | |
press campaigned vigorously against a legislative solution but remember | :45:12. | :45:15. | |
the Prime Minister said if nobody ended up signing up to this, they | :45:16. | :45:20. | |
would have to go to the previous version, which is everything under | :45:20. | :45:26. | |
Ofcom, which nobody wants. I would say to the press, you said you | :45:26. | :45:30. | |
wanted a better organisation and the PCC, you admitted it did not do | :45:30. | :45:34. | |
the job, I think there is an interest of the press at a time | :45:34. | :45:39. | |
when, how much of the press will be with us in 15 years' time is on my | :45:40. | :45:43. | |
mind, how can you make sure you have a cheaper system of redress | :45:43. | :45:53. | |
:45:53. | :46:01. | ||
many readers will think they are above the law, they are too | :46:01. | :46:07. | |
powerful. There is a lot of common ground and all of this, I would | :46:07. | :46:11. | |
agree with it. Everybody thinks that what happened with phone hacking was | :46:11. | :46:15. | |
wrong, most of it was criminal. Most of it could and should have been | :46:15. | :46:19. | |
dealt with by the police but they were far too in hock to newspaper | :46:19. | :46:28. | |
bosses. Leveson was a good enquiry, I appeared before it twice. I have | :46:28. | :46:32. | |
respect for the process, many of the conclusions are across the board | :46:32. | :46:36. | |
agreed, the old regulator wasn't working, we need a better regulated. | :46:36. | :46:42. | |
What you do not do, however, after an enquiry that took a year, is, | :46:42. | :46:52. | |
:46:52. | :46:53. | ||
with a three a.m. Deal with a whole random bunch of people, you include | :46:53. | :47:00. | |
members of campaigns, the lobby organisation that was having a | :47:00. | :47:04. | |
respectable position, but the analogy I would draw would be that | :47:04. | :47:07. | |
you have the Northern Ireland peace negotiations and you involve the | :47:07. | :47:17. | |
:47:17. | :47:19. | ||
Catholics and not the Protestants. Hang on, to be fair, we have no idea | :47:19. | :47:25. | |
what meetings there were between government and press at the time. | :47:26. | :47:28. | |
Because the government refuses to publish them. They are only | :47:28. | :47:34. | |
publishing the meetings they had up to last September. Let me answer the | :47:34. | :47:36. | |
important question, which is the point that everything was | :47:36. | :47:46. | |
:47:46. | :47:50. | ||
illegal... Not everything. And that the regulator was poor. Part of the | :47:50. | :47:53. | |
problem was that the press believed they were above the law, and they | :47:53. | :47:57. | |
didn't care they were breaking the law. It is the same issue now. The | :47:57. | :48:01. | |
law has been written, and that is why, I think, there is a lot of | :48:01. | :48:05. | |
common ground. Nobody is trying to create a body where positions tell | :48:05. | :48:13. | |
the press what is written and what is not working. What was agreed at | :48:13. | :48:22. | |
that meeting was tougher than what Leveson originally wanted. Not just | :48:22. | :48:26. | |
tougher, but also shoddy. They were saying, can you throw in a bit of | :48:26. | :48:34. | |
Internet. I have been critical of the process because I think the | :48:34. | :48:37. | |
Prime Minister should have been hands-on, I think it was bizarre | :48:37. | :48:41. | |
that he delegated it to live in Edwin, I think I was critical | :48:41. | :48:51. | |
:48:51. | :48:56. | ||
about... It changes Leveson, because a lot of people, it should be off,. | :48:56. | :49:00. | |
On who approves the code, on the form of apologies, it goes way | :49:00. | :49:09. | |
beyond... I would not say that it is more aggressive than Leveson. | :49:09. | :49:14. | |
Leveson was absolutely clear it had to be an independent body, where you | :49:14. | :49:22. | |
didn't have the press marking its own homework. But there are busy | :49:22. | :49:27. | |
newspaper organisations that have a vested interest that got themselves | :49:27. | :49:30. | |
into this situation, you also have newspaper editors on the right side | :49:31. | :49:35. | |
of this debate. As Andrew says, they are all uncomfortable, not just with | :49:35. | :49:39. | |
the result but with the process that led to the results. You now have the | :49:39. | :49:46. | |
worst of all worlds, where nobody wants to sign up to what is | :49:46. | :49:54. | |
effectively a dog's breakfast. not a dog's breakfast, the vast | :49:54. | :49:59. | |
majority of people in this country want a press that is able to be wild | :49:59. | :50:02. | |
coming Justin, exciting, entertaining, all the rest of it. | :50:02. | :50:06. | |
Nobody wants to see state censorship and everybody wants to see a fairer | :50:06. | :50:12. | |
system of redress, and I think it is now incumbent on the press to set | :50:12. | :50:20. | |
down and say, how can we make what we have got work? Didn't you | :50:20. | :50:29. | |
describe real titres as an autocratic rule? -- Royal charters. | :50:29. | :50:31. | |
I wasn't in favour of this process, I would have preferred straight | :50:31. | :50:41. | |
:50:41. | :50:45. | ||
legislation. Just behave, Andrew! You are regulated! Broadcasting is | :50:45. | :50:55. | |
:50:55. | :50:57. | ||
regulating stop -- is regulated. have run out of time. I do | :50:57. | :51:05. | |
apologise, my lord. You should take your forelock, you didn't have a | :51:05. | :51:14. | |
forelock! Final depressions are taking place for the funeral of | :51:14. | :51:17. | |
Baroness Thatcher tomorrow, and MPs are debating whether to cancel Prime | :51:18. | :51:21. | |
Minister's questions in order to allow them to attend. Dennis Skinner | :51:21. | :51:27. | |
and the Respect MP George Galloway have objected to the proposals. What | :51:27. | :51:30. | |
are they up to and will they succeed? Parliament will be | :51:30. | :51:36. | |
presenting different faces below and above ground this afternoon. We will | :51:36. | :51:41. | |
see Lady Thatcher's coughing come to the chapel, where there will be a | :51:41. | :51:46. | |
short service and MPs and peers will be able to go and pay their | :51:46. | :51:51. | |
respects. Quite possibly, while some of that is happening, there will be | :51:51. | :51:54. | |
this debate about whether or not there should be a delay in | :51:54. | :51:58. | |
proceedings until after the funeral is over. I have been speaking to | :51:58. | :52:04. | |
Dennis Skinner, he is very angry about how a lot of this has gone. He | :52:04. | :52:08. | |
says, why couldn't we have had a vote on this, why is money being | :52:08. | :52:13. | |
spent when we have concerns about austerity? I have spoken to lots of | :52:14. | :52:18. | |
people in labours ranks, including Glenda Jackson, the MP who had a lot | :52:18. | :52:21. | |
to say during the tribute abates, none of them have confirmed to me | :52:21. | :52:26. | |
that they will be voting with Dennis Skinner yet. She says she's yet to | :52:26. | :52:34. | |
make up her mind. As far as I understand it, they will not be a | :52:34. | :52:42. | |
Prime Minister's questions tomorrow? They will not be, and | :52:42. | :52:45. | |
ultimately, Labour will go along with the government, insured. What | :52:45. | :52:51. | |
all this means is that on the Eve of Lady Thatcher 's funeral, at a time | :52:51. | :52:57. | |
when people have been saying that there has been too much difference, | :52:57. | :53:02. | |
there will be time set aside in the House of Commons for those who feel | :53:02. | :53:06. | |
most vehemently and angrily about her legacy to have their say. I | :53:06. | :53:10. | |
think those two shy and retiring characters you mentioned may take | :53:10. | :53:17. | |
the opportunity to do just that. The funeral will start at Saint | :53:17. | :53:21. | |
Pauls at 11 a.m. Tomorrow. Central London Road will be closed and 50 | :53:21. | :53:23. | |
bus routes will be disrupted as dignitaries from around the world | :53:23. | :53:26. | |
will rub shoulders with the chefs, celebrities and people who worked | :53:26. | :53:32. | |
with Margaret Thatcher. As well as Mr Cameron, the service will be | :53:32. | :53:35. | |
attended by all living former prime ministers, and they will be joined | :53:35. | :53:40. | |
by figures including the former South African leader FW de Klerk, a | :53:40. | :53:46. | |
key figure at the end of apartheid, and Newt Gingrich, the Republican | :53:46. | :53:54. | |
speaker in the mid-19 90s. But it is not just politicians, actors, chefs, | :53:54. | :53:59. | |
singers and broadcasters have also been invited. Michael Crawford plans | :53:59. | :54:06. | |
to be there as does Michael Portillo. They will be joined by Top | :54:06. | :54:10. | |
Gear presenter Jeremy Clarkson and the recently departed US Secretary | :54:10. | :54:12. | |
of State and maybe the next president of the US, Hillary | :54:12. | :54:19. | |
Clinton. Joining me to discuss the seating plans, former Tory MP Gyles | :54:19. | :54:29. | |
Brandreth and Dr Eliza Filby. How do they work out who sits where? | :54:29. | :54:33. | |
imagine I will be sitting right at the back, behind a pillar? But it | :54:33. | :54:39. | |
will be an honour to be there. It is a funeral, but you and I, we know | :54:39. | :54:43. | |
Carol Thatcher, she is the daughter. Losing your mother is a | :54:43. | :54:47. | |
complicated thing, a difficult thing, even when the mother is old | :54:47. | :54:51. | |
and has been frail poor thing -- for years. Some of the writing about it | :54:51. | :54:57. | |
at either turned into a jamboree or like a royal wedding, who will | :54:57. | :55:02. | |
receive their? We have to remember, it is a funeral. It is also a | :55:02. | :55:06. | |
ceremonial funeral. What I like about the list is as well as the | :55:06. | :55:10. | |
great political figures of her day, there are people that over the | :55:10. | :55:14. | |
years, particularly in the 23 years since she left office, when she had | :55:14. | :55:22. | |
no active on a six in her life, she had to have other resources. -- no | :55:22. | :55:26. | |
active politics. She met people who were good companions along the way. | :55:26. | :55:33. | |
Quite a few of those will be there, Joan Collins, Jeremy Clarkson. | :55:33. | :55:39. | |
won't have been a funeral like this since Sir Winston Churchill? It is | :55:39. | :55:43. | |
the obvious parallel, but there will not be the same pomp and | :55:43. | :55:50. | |
circumstance. I think Churchill's death was two days of natural | :55:50. | :56:00. | |
:56:00. | :56:01. | ||
morning, he lay in state for three days... I ran with the cranes, when | :56:01. | :56:10. | |
he went down the river. It wouldn't be... It will not be the same as | :56:10. | :56:14. | |
Churchill's, but the other parallel is Clement Attlee. She is lauded as | :56:14. | :56:23. | |
written is greatest peacetime Prime Minister -- Britain's greatest | :56:23. | :56:28. | |
peacetime promised. But his was very sedate. The only connection with the | :56:28. | :56:33. | |
fact that he had been Prime Minister was the recent underbody coughing | :56:33. | :56:42. | |
which was from the flowers of checkers. He built Britain's welfare | :56:42. | :56:52. | |
:56:52. | :56:54. | ||
state and nuclear deterrent. element of history here is that this | :56:54. | :56:57. | |
is Britain's first woman prime minister. The people of my daughters | :56:58. | :57:02. | |
generation, they take it for granted, what Thatcher achieved. But | :57:02. | :57:07. | |
there she was, getting to Oxford in the 1940s, becoming an MP in the | :57:07. | :57:12. | |
1950s, these were a remarkable thing for a woman to do, and then becoming | :57:12. | :57:15. | |
prime minister. The service is going to be a spiritual, nonpolitical | :57:15. | :57:22. | |
affair. She was serious about her method is as a girl and being a | :57:22. | :57:26. | |
member of the Church of England as an adult and that will be remembered | :57:26. | :57:35. | |
in the service. Francis Maude said that Tony Blair should be afforded a | :57:35. | :57:41. | |
state funeral when the time comes... To me, what happened to good old | :57:41. | :57:45. | |
British restraint? Everything seems to be in this post Diana | :57:46. | :57:49. | |
environment, hyperbolic, grandiose, I am not making a blizzard will | :57:49. | :57:57. | |
point. But if you think about the 19th-century, you had the Duke of | :57:57. | :58:00. | |
Wellington, even Gladstone, who didn't want a great pageant, there | :58:00. | :58:09. | |
were no military connections with it at all, he still lay in state. | :58:09. | :58:11. | |
got 13,000 people into St Paul's for the Duke of Wellington, health and | :58:11. | :58:18. | |
safety would never allow that now! So you are saying, a final word on | :58:18. | :58:22. | |
this, you are saying that in the 19th century we actually did going | :58:22. | :58:29. | |
to these big things? The 19th century was the age of ceremony and | :58:29. | :58:35. | |
deference. Churchill's funeral, which was the obvious parallel, was | :58:36. | :58:38. | |
symbolic because it was the end of Churchill's England, the end of | :58:38. | :58:45. |