19/04/2013 Daily Politics


19/04/2013

Similar Content

Browse content similar to 19/04/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Good afternoon. Welcome to the Daily Politics. Michael Gove calls

:00:44.:00:47.

for a longer school days and Shorter's school holidays. The

:00:47.:00:53.

unions do not like it. Will it be good for our kids? After Thatcher,

:00:53.:00:57.

the politicians are back on the election trail, with David Cameron

:00:57.:01:01.

launching the campaign for the local elections. We will test his

:01:01.:01:05.

pitch with the Tory vice-chairman. There is a big election for the

:01:05.:01:09.

smaller parties. We will ask the Green Party whether their status as

:01:09.:01:14.

the protest party of choice can survive the challenge from UKIP.

:01:14.:01:23.

Remember this? British Gas shares, in November. We reflect on the

:01:23.:01:27.

heady days of privatisation. We will ask if there is any more

:01:28.:01:37.
:01:38.:01:39.

All that coming up. With us for the first half of the show, two

:01:39.:01:43.

political panellists who were aged six and four respectively when Mrs

:01:43.:01:48.

Thatcher left office. You can decide which is which. We could

:01:48.:01:56.

have a competition. I am talking about Owen Jones and Isabel Hardman.

:01:56.:01:59.

There has been dramatic developments this morning in the

:01:59.:02:03.

hunt for the terrorists behind the attack on the Boston Marathon.

:02:03.:02:07.

Overnight, a shooting at the Massachusetts Institute of

:02:07.:02:11.

Technology, one of the world's greatest universities, a police

:02:11.:02:15.

officer died. It was followed by a shoot-out in the Watertown area,

:02:15.:02:21.

just to the west of Boston, in which one of the two suspects was

:02:21.:02:27.

killed. The other is still on the run. Boston city itself and all the

:02:27.:02:35.

surrounding suburbs seem to be in lockdown. Public transport has been

:02:35.:02:40.

suspended. Residents have been told not to leave their homes. There are

:02:40.:02:46.

reports that the suspect are legal permanent residence of the United

:02:46.:02:56.

States, and intriguingly, of Chechnya in origin. -- Russian

:02:56.:03:01.

origin. The perpetrator went into a neighbourhood not far from here,

:03:01.:03:07.

there was an exchange of gunfire. Two suspects were in and S U V.

:03:08.:03:13.

During the course of that pursuit. Several -- during the course of the

:03:13.:03:20.

pursued, several improvised explosive device is were detonated.

:03:20.:03:24.

In the exchange of gunfire, we believe one of the suspect was

:03:24.:03:29.

struck and taken into custody. A second suspect was able to flee

:03:29.:03:38.

from the car. The police were after two suspect, one of them is dead,

:03:38.:03:43.

killed in the shoot-out, the other is still on the run. You can keep

:03:43.:03:49.

up-to-date with the events in the posterior on the BBC News Channel,

:03:49.:03:56.

and the One o'clock News. -- the Boston area. Michael Gault has been

:03:56.:04:01.

making headlines for a change, with the suggestion that the school

:04:01.:04:09.

holidays should be cut. -- Michael Gove. He said the structure of the

:04:09.:04:19.
:04:19.:04:45.

school day was designed for an How has that gone down? Here is the

:04:45.:04:50.

deputy general secretary. We think the school day is long enough. We

:04:50.:04:56.

would like to see teachers released more or to concentrate on teaching

:04:56.:05:00.

in the classroom. Outside the school, we need more leisure

:05:00.:05:04.

activities for children, self directed activities. Those should

:05:04.:05:09.

be arranged in after-school clubs. We do not need to lengthen the

:05:09.:05:15.

school day. Many of the Eastern European systems are looking at the

:05:15.:05:20.

UK, saying they want more creativity. We do not think this at

:05:20.:05:24.

this fear that exists in some of the East Asian education systems is

:05:24.:05:33.

the right model. Michael Gove did not refer to East European systems,

:05:33.:05:41.

he was talking about East Asia. Isabel Hardman, to wrap the

:05:41.:05:46.

conference yesterday, as was I. Had this been trailed off was this

:05:46.:05:52.

planned? Was it a rush of blood to the head? Some academies already

:05:52.:05:55.

have longer days anyway, but one thing that is going to be very

:05:55.:06:00.

interesting, regardless of the right or wrong of land than in the

:06:00.:06:04.

school day, whether the unions would accept that, whether he is

:06:05.:06:10.

prepared to fight them, they are already threatening to strike on

:06:10.:06:16.

performance related pay, so this is not going to go down well. That is

:06:16.:06:23.

clear. Is he right to say the current school timetables are a

:06:23.:06:27.

product of the 19th century? problem with what he is saying is,

:06:27.:06:33.

where is the evidence? Anyone who knows teachers, friends of Teachers,

:06:33.:06:42.

the last thing teachers are is under worked. The last thing

:06:42.:06:45.

parents want is teachers who have not had proper holidays, not fresh

:06:45.:06:51.

to teach. In terms of the evidence, if we look abroad, look at Finland.

:06:51.:06:56.

Consistently at the top of the rankings internationally, they

:06:56.:07:02.

actually have much longer holidays than we have, shorter school days.

:07:02.:07:09.

It is that most of the time. That is true. It is not very sunny.

:07:09.:07:14.

does perform very well on the tables. It also does not have the

:07:14.:07:17.

sort of innovations he is introducing like three schools and

:07:17.:07:23.

academies. They do have a lot of -- lots of autonomy. There is, but

:07:23.:07:29.

they do not have selection, far fewer private education. If I live

:07:29.:07:37.

in the north of Finland, I can choose a comprehensive in the north

:07:37.:07:42.

of Helsinki, you can go anywhere. They have usually high professional

:07:42.:07:46.

standards. That is what we should be looking at because teachers are

:07:46.:07:50.

held in high esteem in Finland. One of the things that worries me is we

:07:50.:07:56.

do not want to put off the best and brightest. The evidence is the best

:07:56.:08:00.

and brightest, he claims there is issued increase in quality of the

:08:00.:08:05.

people going in. I was at dinner with a former Labour minister who

:08:05.:08:10.

was saying there is a large percentage of Oxbridge graduates

:08:10.:08:14.

applying for the teaching profession. Yes, and one of the

:08:14.:08:20.

things we can praise for that is the teacher first programme, which

:08:20.:08:25.

had an aggressive marketing campaign. It is for people who do

:08:25.:08:32.

not have long college-based training. The Education Minister

:08:32.:08:38.

spoke yesterday about devolution, three schools, if power is being

:08:38.:08:44.

devolved to these individual schools, should not be under this -

:08:44.:08:49.

- up to the school to determine the school day and school holiday?

:08:49.:08:53.

it is important Michael Gove does not dictate to them. He is giving

:08:53.:08:58.

them freedom and then he is saying they need shorter holidays. That is

:08:58.:09:02.

my worry. Imagine having a kid at high school and primary school and

:09:02.:09:06.

they have completely different holidays, that would cause chaos.

:09:06.:09:14.

There is a need for consistency. National standard. Absolutely. If

:09:14.:09:22.

you will. I will. Party-political came as something of a standstill

:09:22.:09:27.

after death. With a by-election on Wednesday, they are returning to

:09:27.:09:35.

the fray. The first, we will speak to the BBC's editor of political

:09:35.:09:39.

research, the man who knows everything about elections. That is

:09:39.:09:45.

why become too. Am I right in thinking the main point of these

:09:45.:09:51.

elections is that we will compare them with a very good Tory year,

:09:51.:09:58.

the Tories did very well last time. Exactly right, in 2009, I'd have

:09:58.:10:03.

the 27 counties coming up for election, the Conservatives won 26.

:10:03.:10:11.

-- but of the 27 counties. That was after nine years in opposition. In

:10:11.:10:16.

a sense, it is payback time. It is a much darker space for them to

:10:16.:10:22.

fight these elections. In the run- up to this, I assume we will hear a

:10:22.:10:27.

lot of Tory spend about losing seats, these will not be good

:10:27.:10:33.

results, and Labour saying they will not do that well. Absolutely

:10:33.:10:37.

right. They will set their own homework. There will be all that

:10:37.:10:42.

taking place. What will be important here, for the

:10:42.:10:46.

Conservatives particularly, is they have a long way to fall, given that

:10:46.:10:52.

spectacular triumph in 2009. They have the added burden of UKIP,

:10:52.:10:59.

which, four years ago, contested one in four seats, and I note

:10:59.:11:06.

fighting 75% of seats. -- now they are fighting. A lot of commentary

:11:07.:11:11.

makes the assumption that the Conservatives lose votes to the

:11:11.:11:16.

UKIP, but in Eastleigh, that was not necessarily the case. It will

:11:16.:11:21.

be interesting to see if they take votes from other parties. Yes, it

:11:21.:11:26.

is far too simple. They are disproportionately Conservative,

:11:26.:11:30.

but there are people they have taken from other parties, the Lib

:11:30.:11:37.

Dems, who were so long the party of opposition. If you work against the

:11:37.:11:40.

Establishment he would vote for them. Now they are part of that.

:11:40.:11:44.

Some of that board has gone to UKIP. They also take some Labour votes

:11:44.:11:47.

and some people there were so fed up with the party system they have

:11:47.:11:52.

not been voting. It is more complex but the reason the Conservatives

:11:52.:11:55.

are more worried than most is more of that leakage comes from them

:11:55.:12:02.

than anybody else. The Tories are on the defensive. Labour are on the

:12:02.:12:11.

ascendant. Where does that leave a party like the Green Party?

:12:11.:12:17.

difficulty. The Green Party, up until now, had a much bigger hit

:12:17.:12:24.

rates than the other small parties. People would talk about BNP, UKIP,

:12:24.:12:27.

but the Green Party were the ones that performed. The difficulty this

:12:27.:12:31.

time is UKIP are really the New Kids On the Block, they believe the

:12:31.:12:38.

forces with them. They have twice as many candidates, and they will

:12:38.:12:48.
:12:48.:12:50.

not be eclipsed. Thank you very much. The fact that the UK

:12:50.:12:53.

Independence Party are standing in so many seats could have an impact

:12:53.:12:58.

on all the other parties, big and small. For the Green Party the

:12:58.:13:01.

danger is the protest vote that previously lent to them might faint

:13:01.:13:06.

-- might find its way to Nigel Farage. Are they worried? We will

:13:06.:13:11.

find out. Natalie Bennett joins us from Oxford. She has just launched

:13:11.:13:15.

the local election campaign. Welcome to the programme. Are you

:13:15.:13:20.

worried you will be eclipsed by UKIP? Absolutely not. We are

:13:20.:13:24.

confident we will have a strong showing in these elections. We are

:13:24.:13:30.

confident we will seek county councillors elected in Cornwall,

:13:30.:13:35.

and we are confident that in a number of the areas we will see an

:13:35.:13:40.

increase in representation. The party is growing fast in Bristol.

:13:40.:13:44.

Where is the evidence that people are concerned about green issues

:13:44.:13:48.

when the economy is stagnating, living standards are being squeezed,

:13:48.:13:53.

there's no growth, public spending is being cut? The European

:13:53.:14:00.

Parliament cannot even vote for the carbon trading system any more.

:14:00.:14:04.

I was saying in Oxford, we are speaking up for a different kind of

:14:04.:14:09.

economy, we're saying globalisation new liberalism has hit the limits,

:14:09.:14:13.

we need strong local economy is built around small businesses and

:14:13.:14:19.

shops, we need jobs that pay the living wage, that are secured, do

:14:19.:14:23.

not have zero our contracts, we are speaking up for all range of things.

:14:23.:14:29.

We are speaking against the cuts, we are speaking for services.

:14:29.:14:31.

not see you resonating with the public, who have other concerns at

:14:31.:14:39.

the moment. I think concerns about low-paid jobs, concerns about big

:14:39.:14:45.

supermarkets coming in and scooping out local High Street, leaving them

:14:45.:14:50.

without small businesses, they do resonate with voters. We find when

:14:50.:14:54.

we speak up, many councils are fighting to ensure people affected

:14:54.:15:00.

by the bedroom tax do not face eviction. They are issues that are

:15:00.:15:04.

pressing on lives today. Labour are taking that position as well.

:15:05.:15:09.

Unfortunately, they have not said they would abolish the bedroom tax.

:15:09.:15:16.

You will not have a chance do. will see what happens! I am happy

:15:16.:15:19.

to take any kind of bet you name on that that you will not be forming

:15:19.:15:26.

the next government of the country. Would you like a bed? Name your

:15:26.:15:34.

price. I would put a million pounds. Isabel Hardman will lend me alone.

:15:34.:15:38.

I will put a million pounds on the table that you will not be the next

:15:38.:15:44.

government of this country. afraid the underwriting does not

:15:44.:15:49.

stretch that far. Let me ask you about the citizen's income. It will

:15:50.:15:54.

be an unconditional payment made to everybody as a right of citizenship.

:15:54.:16:01.

How much would I get? It will start out on a basis of the jobseeker's

:16:01.:16:05.

allowance. The idea is the benefits system is hugely affected.

:16:05.:16:12.

Jobseeker's Allowance is �71 per week. Only �71? That is the

:16:12.:16:16.

starting point, then you can choose to do what ever work you would like

:16:16.:16:22.

on top of that. Everybody would get it? Indeed. The chairman of

:16:22.:16:30.

Barclays Bank would get �71? would get it back off them in tax.

:16:30.:16:33.

It is a situation where people on Jobseeker's Allowance, on other

:16:33.:16:40.

benefits payments, if they take a couple of hours' work, the benefits

:16:41.:16:44.

are thrown into chaos. This eliminates the problem of means-

:16:44.:16:50.

testing. We would have a situation where people are provided with

:16:50.:16:55.

basic support and it is up to them to build on that. I think with this,

:16:55.:16:59.

we will see lots of bad poetry but I do nothing that is the worst

:16:59.:17:09.
:17:09.:17:20.

People in poverty will have to get a lot more than that. What about

:17:20.:17:28.

the people who do not need it? idea is we believe in universal

:17:28.:17:35.

benefits. We would defend things like pensioner bus passes. Even for

:17:35.:17:42.

the Duchess of Buccleuch? Yes, and we would have a tax system which

:17:42.:17:47.

would recover it from the wealthy. We need to ensure it multinational

:17:47.:17:51.

companies and wealthy individuals pay their fair share of taxes.

:17:51.:17:56.

would get unemployment benefit. This would replace unemployment

:17:56.:18:04.

benefit. I am not any better off if I am unemployed? I thought you were

:18:04.:18:10.

supporting the poor and the disadvantaged. If we form the next

:18:10.:18:14.

Government we would introduce that, but we are looking at the moment

:18:14.:18:21.

more directly at looking at making the minimum wage a living wage. We

:18:21.:18:26.

want to see many more councils being living wage employers where

:18:26.:18:30.

all of their contractors are paid at least a living wage, which is

:18:30.:18:35.

more than a pound a week more than the national minimum wage, which is

:18:35.:18:41.

inadequate. What is a good result for you? We are confident we are

:18:41.:18:47.

going to see an increase in our numbers. We have got 138

:18:47.:18:52.

councillors and I am confident that will be growing. What is your

:18:52.:18:59.

target? We hope we want to hit double figures in growth. You are

:18:59.:19:04.

in double figures if you have got over 100. I was talking about the

:19:04.:19:12.

increase. A so you are hoping for 11. I said approaching that. This

:19:12.:19:15.

is the first time these elections have been held independently of

:19:15.:19:20.

other elections for many years. We are in a situation where many

:19:20.:19:24.

people are feeling dissatisfied with the three largest parties and

:19:24.:19:29.

we think our model of strong local economies, decent jobs and decent

:19:29.:19:33.

services for the people who meet them will have some resonance with

:19:33.:19:40.

the electorate. Natalie Bennett, thank you for joining us.

:19:40.:19:44.

These elections are expected to be a significant challenge for the

:19:44.:19:49.

Conservatives. David Cameron has been lodging the party's campaign

:19:49.:19:55.

and this morning he made a speech in Warwickshire. If you want good

:19:55.:19:59.

Government that costs less, vote conservative. If you want waste and

:20:00.:20:05.

propaganda, vote Labour. Do not let Labour do to your council what they

:20:05.:20:09.

did to our country. Let that be our message in the run-up to these

:20:09.:20:17.

elections. We I joined by Bob Neill, vice-chairman of the Conservative

:20:17.:20:22.

party responsible for local Government. Let's start the process

:20:22.:20:25.

of downgrading our expectations. How many seats are you going to

:20:25.:20:34.

lose? I think the truth is this is going to be a tough call for us and

:20:34.:20:42.

I am not going to pretend otherwise. How bad? I am not going to put

:20:42.:20:48.

numerical figures on it, because the only thing Natalie said that I

:20:48.:20:52.

agreed with is we are fighting these elections separately from

:20:52.:20:55.

their general elections and that will affect turnout and that can

:20:55.:21:00.

make a big difference. We are starting from almost a record high

:21:00.:21:05.

base and it will be very tough to defend all those seats, despite

:21:05.:21:08.

good work at the Conservative councils. One unnamed Cabinet

:21:09.:21:14.

minister says terrible would be a great result for us. I am not going

:21:14.:21:18.

to put it in those towns. At the time these elections happened four

:21:18.:21:25.

years ago the Labour Party was 11% behind as in the polls. Most of the

:21:25.:21:32.

polls which suggest that that position is reversed. You would

:21:32.:21:37.

expect something like that to show up in the election figures.

:21:37.:21:42.

addition to that you have got UKIP to worry about. We have and what we

:21:42.:21:49.

can say is firstly, splitting the vote in any election because you

:21:50.:21:55.

want a firmer line on things like our relationship with Europe,

:21:56.:21:59.

letting in Labour and the Lib Dems is cutting off your nose to spite

:21:59.:22:04.

your face. They are all across the south of England and that is where

:22:04.:22:10.

your seats are. They only fought last time in 2009 and they only

:22:10.:22:17.

fought in 24% of seats. They are now in 73% of seats. You are now in

:22:17.:22:24.

real trouble. You will be whacked by Labour and whacked by UKIP.

:22:24.:22:29.

is interesting. Nigel Farage was going around early on boasting that

:22:29.:22:35.

he was going to fight over 2000 seats. It never happened in reality,

:22:35.:22:40.

like a lot of his boasting. We had a council by-election last night in

:22:40.:22:46.

the south of England in Sussex which the Conservatives won with a

:22:46.:22:51.

very big increase. On the previous occasion UKIP had a candidate who

:22:51.:22:54.

got a very respectable score and they could not find a candidate for

:22:54.:23:00.

last night. John Major used to tell me about all the local council by-

:23:00.:23:06.

elections when the Poles were bad for him in 1995. Could you remind

:23:06.:23:12.

be what the election result was in 1997? Absolutely, and that is why I

:23:12.:23:19.

am realistic about not said in too much store by it opinion polls.

:23:19.:23:25.

was not a good guide for what happened to John Major. You are

:23:25.:23:30.

saying we are in trouble in the south of England with UKIP, but I

:23:30.:23:33.

am saying in this by-election they could not find a candidate,

:23:33.:23:36.

although of course we take the fact they are fighting more seats

:23:36.:23:43.

seriously. A you want to reduce Labour's expectations. I do not

:23:43.:23:47.

want to agree with the Conservatives too much, but 2009

:23:47.:23:53.

was the fag end of Gordon Brown's Premiership. Labour got devastated.

:23:53.:23:58.

Labour themselves are spinning their own figures and say they are

:23:58.:24:03.

going to win only around 200 extra seats, but that would be a disaster.

:24:03.:24:09.

They need to get about 500. That is more likely what they will get. It

:24:09.:24:17.

is only two years until a general election. The problem with UKIP is

:24:17.:24:21.

interesting. The Green Party have got these great strongholds like

:24:21.:24:27.

Oxford and Brighton and Norwich. UKIP do not have that, they are

:24:27.:24:32.

sparsely distributed. There is no point getting 50% consistently in

:24:32.:24:36.

opinion polls and less that is evenly everywhere. Otherwise they

:24:36.:24:40.

will not pick up the seats. In the European elections they did very

:24:41.:24:46.

well, but I would be surprised if they did as well as Nigel Farage

:24:46.:24:53.

says. But Labour have the Conservatives coming down from the

:24:53.:25:00.

top and UKIP coming up from the bottom. The idea of Labour's

:25:00.:25:04.

southern discomfort is a phrase that is being used. Labour is going

:25:04.:25:08.

on a mission to win seats in the south, and if they do not succeed

:25:08.:25:12.

like they did in Eastleigh, that is something you will hear a lot about

:25:12.:25:18.

from the Tories. Your election broadcast says council tax has

:25:18.:25:22.

fallen by 10% in real terms because this Government has helped fees the

:25:22.:25:27.

council tax. You could be forgiven for thinking that everybody's

:25:27.:25:32.

council tax has fallen, not risen this year, but that is not true.

:25:32.:25:37.

The majority have taken up the council tax freeze and we are in a

:25:37.:25:43.

third year. It is accumulating. This is misleading, it is not a cut

:25:43.:25:48.

of 10%. If you look across the period since we have had the

:25:48.:25:53.

council tax regime in place, it is a proper figure. In some cases the

:25:53.:25:58.

councils have not frozen, but the majority is have and that includes

:25:58.:26:03.

some of the councils that have an election. Why should people vote

:26:03.:26:08.

for the Conservative councils that have ignored you freeze? 10 of them

:26:08.:26:13.

have increased the council tax. seven out of 10 have frozen the

:26:13.:26:23.
:26:23.:26:23.

council tax. But they may not boat for three out of 10. The council

:26:23.:26:27.

tax doubled under the Labour Government and it makes a big

:26:27.:26:31.

difference to people on modest incomes in particular. It is a

:26:31.:26:35.

larger percentage of their cost of living, so that is an achievement.

:26:35.:26:40.

But we are doing that at the same time as we are protecting money

:26:40.:26:47.

that goes on frontline services will stop what are the figures? I

:26:47.:26:53.

am not going to get into the figures came, we are all quarters

:26:53.:26:58.

about the opinion polls, my job is to make sure we fight for every

:26:58.:27:03.

seat recant. If David Cameron does badly with these results and Labour

:27:03.:27:12.

wins even more, it is yet another dream beat -- drumbeat in the

:27:12.:27:19.

background among the Tories who are and habit. Cameron's enemies have

:27:19.:27:25.

set him up for a higher threshold in success. One of the tests is the

:27:25.:27:30.

effect game marriage has had on the party grassroots. This is shire

:27:30.:27:35.

England where people may have been upset by the policy. MPs who are

:27:35.:27:41.

campaigning in these elections if they see the team going around

:27:41.:27:45.

knocking on doors as the mayor's, they will blame that on a marriage.

:27:46.:27:52.

If you have ever read a map, or bought a house, or posted a letter

:27:52.:28:01.

or enriched uranium one, you have a mundane, but dangers like. All of

:28:01.:28:05.

these things may well soon be provided by the private sector.

:28:05.:28:10.

This Government is looking at another wave of privatisations.

:28:10.:28:15.

Giles has been looking at how a certain Prime Minister made a once

:28:15.:28:19.

controversial idea mainstream. On entering Downing Street, Mrs

:28:19.:28:24.

Thatcher looked at the nation's assets and had a plan. It was

:28:24.:28:29.

radical and eventually had to be convinced it could be done.

:28:29.:28:34.

started making a case for privatisation in the 1970s and to

:28:34.:28:37.

kick to Margaret Thatcher's opposition leader and she said, I

:28:37.:28:43.

am interested, but they will not let me do it. Prior to that it was

:28:43.:28:47.

bitterly contested and it was thought to be whacky. Emboldened,

:28:47.:28:54.

the whacky became policy. British Telecom was sold, British Steel

:28:54.:29:00.

offered 450 million shares and the public applied for 1 billion.

:29:00.:29:03.

Jaguar was oversubscribed and there were queues around the block for

:29:03.:29:08.

Rolls Royce. The sake of water companies and rail networks was

:29:08.:29:13.

more controversial. The sale of British Rail took off and so did

:29:13.:29:19.

pick airports Authority. And then there was Sid. These days,

:29:19.:29:23.

privatisation is something that governments do. Even this

:29:23.:29:27.

Government is looking at privatising the Royal Mint which

:29:27.:29:33.

has been National since 800 AD. The Royal Mail, the Land Registry and

:29:34.:29:38.

the Ordnance Survey, part of the MoD. The opposition is unlikely to

:29:38.:29:42.

oppose any of this, indeed if it had been in Government, it would

:29:42.:29:48.

have had to look at selling the same things. It is driven both by

:29:48.:29:53.

cash and the Duke that these would be better functioning as businesses

:29:53.:29:57.

within the private sector. But not everyone likes the idea of

:29:57.:30:02.

privatisation. Look at the public reaction to the proposed forestry

:30:02.:30:07.

sell off and the 4G network did not bring in the cash expected. What do

:30:07.:30:13.

you get rid of when you want nothing left to sell? There is no

:30:13.:30:16.

danger of that because there has been a huge increase in the number

:30:16.:30:24.

of things at the state owns, starting with the banks. How you do

:30:24.:30:28.

that and when you do that and what the framework is is going to be a

:30:28.:30:33.

big issue for a Government of whatever party. When that time

:30:33.:30:43.
:30:43.:30:50.

comes, will somebody please tell You are going to privatise Ordnance

:30:50.:30:54.

Survey. Why bother? It is falling through the logic, but so much of

:30:54.:30:58.

it has been done already. It is partly why David Cameron was right,

:30:58.:31:07.

she has shifted the terms of debate. I am suing for defamation. She has

:31:07.:31:11.

shifted the terms of trade, it is regarded as mainstream. You have

:31:11.:31:16.

done it. Don't you need to move on? What is the point of privatising

:31:16.:31:23.

Ordnance Survey? How much will you get for it? I do not imagine it

:31:23.:31:28.

will break the bank. A lot of these things work better in the private

:31:28.:31:38.
:31:38.:31:41.

sector. Have you tried to use Apple Maps? That is the private sector.

:31:41.:31:49.

Think about how many things to operate better, gas and utility. It

:31:49.:31:54.

is a question of what is logically available. Owen Jones, what bits

:31:54.:32:01.

were wrongly privatised? Should British Telecom be renationalise?

:32:01.:32:05.

The old form of nationalisation in to do by the post-war Labour

:32:05.:32:12.

governments were responsive, I would not support that, the sort I

:32:12.:32:16.

would support his democratic ownership. If we take the railways

:32:16.:32:21.

back into public ownership, I do not want to go back to British Rail,

:32:22.:32:25.

I want representatives of passengers and workers on the board

:32:25.:32:31.

to run the sector in the interests of people, rather than that model.

:32:31.:32:40.

Should Jaguar be renationalise? key point, this is what David

:32:40.:32:45.

Cameron was saying, the idea that people support these huge

:32:45.:32:50.

privatisation plans just is not true. What is the answer to my

:32:50.:32:55.

question? Should Jaguar be taken back into state ownership? Nobody

:32:55.:33:00.

is demanding Jaguar gets renationalise. At the time, what I

:33:00.:33:03.

would have argued for... I do not care about the time because you

:33:03.:33:07.

were not around. Should Rolls-Royce be taken back into public

:33:07.:33:14.

ownership? I am not going to call now for the renationalisation of

:33:14.:33:19.

Rolls-Royce or Jaguar. What about your socialist roots? I would like

:33:19.:33:24.

to start with the main utilities, 61% of people according to a poll

:33:24.:33:30.

yesterday, just a bonus point out of the water, 61% of people thought

:33:30.:33:34.

gas and energy and water would be better run in the public sector. I

:33:34.:33:38.

would like to start with those main utilities. It does not make any

:33:38.:33:43.

sense, they are a natural monopoly. In a sense, that is where the

:33:43.:33:49.

debate is moving. It is not about privatising Ordnance Survey,

:33:49.:33:52.

privatisation is probably not to have worked were there was

:33:52.:33:58.

competition in the market already. It has been more problematic we you

:33:58.:34:01.

have been privatising natural monopoly. The point that Owen Jones

:34:01.:34:05.

makes about the railways, the utility providers, owes a markets

:34:05.:34:10.

was not much competition, the government is involved, so the

:34:10.:34:15.

railways was a very statist privatisation. It created natural

:34:15.:34:22.

monopolies. Even Conservative voters want to see it renationalise.

:34:22.:34:26.

I am not Jaguar. Win will start with railways then Jaguar. Come in

:34:26.:34:32.

up, we have a look at European politics. Now it is time to say

:34:32.:34:39.

goodbye to her two guests, and to Bob Neill as well. It has been a

:34:39.:34:43.

busy week for members of the European Parliament, meeting in

:34:43.:34:47.

Strasbourg to debate issues, grill senior officials, and do their

:34:47.:34:57.
:34:57.:34:59.

expenses. Here is our guide to the You might not know it, but Croatia

:34:59.:35:03.

joins the European Union in July. This week, they voted for their

:35:04.:35:09.

first ever European politicians, 12 of them. Turnout was 27%, one of

:35:09.:35:17.

the lowest in any election. The Commissioner for budgets met any

:35:17.:35:19.

Sabah Usmani, her sons Sohaib, Rayyan, Muneeb and daughter Hira to

:35:19.:35:23.

discuss the budget up to 2020, and the view that there is many extra

:35:23.:35:33.

billions of Euros needed. Politicians have planned to open up

:35:33.:35:40.

airports to competition, needing to operate with three grown providers.

:35:40.:35:50.
:35:50.:36:04.

Difficult new rules on the amount For the next 30 minutes I am joined

:36:05.:36:12.

by Timothy Kirkhope and Glenys Wilmott. We will look at one of

:36:12.:36:16.

those stories, the vote on new banking rules, including the Caporn

:36:16.:36:26.

banker bonuses. -- cap on. By water authority does the European Union

:36:26.:36:30.

take the right to limit salaries? Is to was not just about bankers

:36:30.:36:35.

bonuses, -- this was not just about bankers bonuses, it was a range of

:36:35.:36:41.

measures to stop casino capitalism. It makes sure there is enough

:36:41.:36:46.

liquidity to deal with crisis. understand that, regulation of the

:36:46.:36:51.

banking system, but what gives you the right to determine how much

:36:51.:36:56.

somebody's bonus should be? George Osborne had a chance to deal with

:36:56.:37:03.

it and he did not. People across Europe feel this is ridiculous,

:37:03.:37:08.

getting more than twice your salary in a bonus. Most people would like

:37:08.:37:13.

to have doubled their salary as a bonus at the end of the year.

:37:13.:37:18.

prescriptive approach from Europe is an agreeable. We agree that

:37:18.:37:23.

making banks have enough capital is good. This is a crazy issue. It

:37:23.:37:29.

should not be done in this way. We hope the Bank will show sensitivity

:37:29.:37:35.

in future bearing in mind what has happened, -- the banks. Doing this

:37:35.:37:39.

in a prescriptive way from Brussels seems to last to be unacceptable.

:37:39.:37:44.

Most people would say they would not mind having their bonus limited

:37:44.:37:50.

to 100% of their salary because it is nothing like that. The point is

:37:50.:37:54.

if you do this, you simply open up the whole idea of renumeration from

:37:54.:37:59.

other sources. Goodness knows what mess you get into. It is poking

:37:59.:38:03.

into something in a specific manner. We know what we want, we want

:38:03.:38:10.

restraint. What we do not want his this authoritarianism. It led to

:38:10.:38:15.

recklessness, and that was the point. People were chasing big

:38:15.:38:22.

bonuses and did not take care. they will just increase salaries.

:38:22.:38:28.

It is precise we what will happen. If you ask those people, they would

:38:28.:38:32.

say this is the right thing to do. What people were disgusted at the

:38:32.:38:42.
:38:42.:38:42.

way the banks handled this. Why not 50%? Can I am move on? -- can I

:38:42.:38:46.

move on? Should businesses be forced to pay for polluting the

:38:46.:38:53.

atmosphere? A voter in the EU has let the main mechanism going to

:38:53.:38:58.

disarray. MEPs voted down a proposal to delay an option of

:38:58.:39:03.

polluter permits. It was said to be necessary to increase the cost and

:39:03.:39:08.

encourage industry to reduce emissions.

:39:08.:39:12.

Cutting the level of carbon emissions has been the driving

:39:12.:39:16.

force behind the European union's battle against global warming. In

:39:16.:39:22.

order to hit a 20% reduction target by 2020, they came up with the idea

:39:22.:39:28.

of a carbon market. Great in theory, but after eight years the project

:39:28.:39:33.

is at risk of going up in smoke. Some believe it was doomed from the

:39:33.:39:39.

start. It is time to put the impetus into alternative policies.

:39:39.:39:44.

That is what investors want to see. There are many other things you

:39:44.:39:54.
:39:54.:39:54.

could be doing. The trading system was set up in 2005, putting a price

:39:54.:39:58.

on carbon, and letting the industry decide whether to clean up their

:39:59.:40:06.

act. The problem is the price of carbon has slumped. With it, there

:40:06.:40:13.

is no incentive for companies to invest in cleaner technology. This

:40:13.:40:17.

German steelworks company decided to invest heavily in green

:40:17.:40:21.

technology. As a result they have cut their emissions by 25% since

:40:21.:40:27.

2005. They are leading the way in the electric steelmaking industry.

:40:27.:40:30.

We are have been implementing a very strict discipline about carbon

:40:30.:40:35.

conception. We are still on the market, producing steel, making

:40:35.:40:42.

profits. It is difficult to make a profit in this industry. It is one

:40:42.:40:46.

of the success stories but it has not been cheap, particularly in the

:40:46.:40:50.

recession, competing against American and Chinese companies who

:40:50.:40:59.

do not operate in the car market. - carbon market. In order to fix it,

:40:59.:41:04.

they proposed intervening. They called on M8 -- called on MEPs to

:41:04.:41:09.

back the plan. I am really worried and uncertain about what the future

:41:10.:41:14.

holds. This board might suggest that Europe is turning its back on

:41:14.:41:21.

global warming, and no longer cares case, we are cutting our own

:41:21.:41:26.

throats. The fears that an increase in the carbon price might boost

:41:26.:41:33.

energy costs resulted in MEPs voting against the proposal.

:41:33.:41:36.

voted against because this is a short-term solution that is not

:41:36.:41:41.

really a solution. There are problems but they need structural

:41:41.:41:49.

changes. More than 50% of the Conservative MEPs voted against the

:41:49.:41:55.

plan, to howls of hypocrisy. The Liberal Democrats claimed David

:41:55.:41:59.

Cameron claimed -- David Cameron's claim to care about the environment

:41:59.:42:06.

is now a distant memory. The European carbon trading system has

:42:06.:42:14.

not really worked. The price collapsed. This board has been the

:42:14.:42:18.

nail in the coffin. -- this board. There is no doubt it needs reform

:42:19.:42:28.
:42:29.:42:33.

to. The British Government was trying to reform it. I hope it is

:42:33.:42:37.

not over because we need to encourage businesses to get into

:42:37.:42:41.

new technology. British business is at a disadvantage because they have

:42:41.:42:48.

a minimum carbon price that other people across Europe do not.

:42:48.:42:51.

suggests the European Parliament, by voting the way it did, is in

:42:51.:42:55.

tune with the changing mood of Europe. This is a Europe in

:42:55.:43:05.
:43:05.:43:06.

recession, 25 million unemployed, companies clearly closing down. The

:43:06.:43:11.

priority is jobs, growth, living standards, not some theoretical

:43:11.:43:17.

carbon price. We are also looking at imports, but that is another

:43:17.:43:27.
:43:27.:43:29.

issue. This is something the British Government was lobbying for.

:43:29.:43:38.

Labour MEPs supported them. You did not. I was not rebelling. I

:43:38.:43:44.

followed the party whip. We did not agree with the Government on this.

:43:44.:43:53.

As you have not agreed on working- time directives. Urine a position

:43:53.:43:57.

where you are part of a party in power in Britain which is

:43:57.:44:07.
:44:07.:44:07.

implementing unilateral carbon prices, and you get to vote against

:44:07.:44:15.

a much lower one in the European Parliament. We said the system

:44:15.:44:22.

needs reform. To reform it in the short term, refer it back for

:44:22.:44:31.

debate and discussion, and because the only reason we are where we are

:44:31.:44:34.

is because the economy is in a difficult state. That is why the

:44:34.:44:39.

price has fallen. The market we set up is no longer operating

:44:39.:44:48.

effectively. We need to look at it again and come up with a sensible

:44:48.:44:54.

approach. This Government is doing a lot. We're doing all kinds of

:44:54.:45:03.

things. Let's get to the position we find ourselves in in Europe.

:45:03.:45:08.

There is bipartisan support. You have got us in a position where

:45:08.:45:14.

there is no floor price in carbon. You have lumbered British Industry

:45:14.:45:24.
:45:24.:45:26.

with a four place -- floor price of �30 per tonne. You come on to this

:45:26.:45:30.

show and talk about rebalancing the economy, manufacturing, getting

:45:30.:45:35.

away from services and financial industries, you have put an

:45:35.:45:39.

albatross around their neck. That is not true. The short-term fix

:45:39.:45:44.

would not have dealt with the underlying problems of the scheme.

:45:44.:45:48.

We have to look at the fundamentals of this. It would sound good, but

:45:48.:45:54.

it was not going to work. That is why we voted against it. My point

:45:54.:45:59.

is even if you reform the scheme, European companies would be subject

:45:59.:46:05.

to a much lower floor price than British companies because you

:46:05.:46:15.
:46:15.:46:25.

government volunteer a higher one The real marketplace competition is

:46:25.:46:31.

against China and India. Why did you not make the prices lower?

:46:31.:46:36.

European basis we have to have had something that works. It is not

:46:36.:46:40.

working in Britain, we have lumbered our companies are a higher

:46:40.:46:46.

cost of energy. What is next? have to make sure companies invest

:46:47.:46:51.

in new technology. I agree, the carbon price has dropped

:46:51.:46:59.

dramatically. Are we right to have our own �16 a tonne carbon fuel

:46:59.:47:04.

price? It would have been better if we had the support in the European

:47:04.:47:10.

Parliament. It is now going to rise to �30 a tonne, are we right to do

:47:10.:47:16.

that? It is difficult to predict things in terms of price. A excuse

:47:16.:47:20.

me, this is Government policy, this is an administered floor price to

:47:21.:47:27.

get it up to �30. It is a Government mandated, minimum price.

:47:27.:47:33.

The each Government has to take its own view. This it right? I can see

:47:34.:47:38.

no way that governments should not take the decisions that they wish.

:47:38.:47:44.

What was proposed by the commission was not going to work. As far as we

:47:44.:47:49.

were concerned, we wanted to have another look at it. The British one

:47:49.:47:54.

may well work. British companies are wrapping massive disadvantage

:47:54.:48:00.

to European competitors. We are not at the end of this at all. Maybe

:48:00.:48:06.

the interest will move on. I invite you both to read the statements of

:48:06.:48:11.

people representing industries in Teesside. Read the Financial Times

:48:11.:48:16.

this morning and the opinion comment. I think it is quite

:48:16.:48:21.

helpful. It is not really plugged into Teesside.

:48:21.:48:25.

The European Commission questioned George Osborne's planned tax relief

:48:25.:48:31.

for Britain's video-games industry. He announced a tax relief of 25%

:48:31.:48:36.

last year which is supposed to come into effect in April. The industry

:48:36.:48:44.

is big business. It is thought to be worth around �55 billion. The UK

:48:44.:48:53.

industry, says the tax break will help safeguard over 4500 jobs. It

:48:53.:49:00.

will boost the economy by �283 million. The European Commission

:49:00.:49:04.

says the plans will breach the rules over state aid and has now

:49:04.:49:14.
:49:14.:49:15.

launched an inquiry. Is it game over? Let's go to Alyn Smith for

:49:15.:49:20.

the SNP. There is a huge chunk of this industry based in Scotland and

:49:20.:49:25.

it is going to turn over �1 billion a year. Why does it need a tax

:49:25.:49:31.

subsidy? This is precisely the question. Yes, these things need to

:49:31.:49:35.

be signed up within the rules of the single market, but our stance

:49:35.:49:39.

is that the European Commission is looking at this on too narrow a

:49:39.:49:45.

scale. We are not just competing with France or Germany, we are

:49:45.:49:48.

competing with Canada and America weather are federal and state

:49:48.:49:54.

incentives. We think the relief is necessary. We are seeing a number

:49:54.:49:57.

of manufacturers are increasingly finishing their product in the

:49:57.:50:01.

States and Canada in order to take advantage of those incentives. The

:50:01.:50:05.

French have forked out a similar scheme that this would generate an

:50:05.:50:09.

extra amount of money and would generate money in Scotland and the

:50:09.:50:13.

UK and we want to see this go forward. It has been a long time

:50:13.:50:21.

coming. The video games industry in Britain should have tax relief

:50:21.:50:24.

because its competitors outside the European Union have generous tax

:50:24.:50:30.

relief? Very generous tax relief in a number of cases. The Canadians

:50:30.:50:34.

have ploughed a great deal of strategically important money into

:50:34.:50:39.

this because they wanted to develop a Canadian games industry. Unless

:50:39.:50:44.

we get our act together, we will export high-skill, created jobs at

:50:44.:50:50.

a time when much of the creativity is Scottish, UK, European. We need

:50:50.:50:53.

to make sure the Government is lining up behind those industries

:50:53.:50:57.

and this is hugely important for the development of this in the

:50:57.:51:02.

street and in the future. We need to maintain the Crucible with an

:51:02.:51:07.

Scotland, the UK and Europe to maintain its competitive advantage.

:51:07.:51:11.

The European Commission can look into this, but this needs to go

:51:11.:51:16.

ahead and the sooner the better able stock the danger is that in

:51:16.:51:20.

the event and industry survives or fails knock on the basis of the

:51:20.:51:23.

quality of its products or brainpower and innovation of its

:51:23.:51:29.

people, but simply by who is given the biggest tax breaks? That is a

:51:29.:51:34.

risk to be sure, but what is created need not last in perpetuity.

:51:34.:51:40.

Our stance is the UK games industry is at a competitive disadvantage

:51:40.:51:43.

internationally in physical terms. A number of other governments are

:51:43.:51:47.

specifically buying into this industry and once it is there, it

:51:47.:51:51.

will stay there. We want to make sure we do not lose these jobs or

:51:51.:51:57.

this industry and we are backing the Chancellor's proposals. The

:51:57.:52:00.

European Commission can look into this by all means, but the French

:52:00.:52:05.

have calculated in a similar scheme that this generates money and jobs,

:52:05.:52:10.

which can only be good for all of us. I will be knocking on the

:52:10.:52:14.

European commission's door to protect and promote these plans.

:52:15.:52:19.

Every vested interest always says it will generate more jobs and

:52:19.:52:24.

income. What should we tell the European Commission? This is

:52:25.:52:29.

something we are really good at, we are up there with world leaders.

:52:29.:52:35.

Shall we tell the European Commission to back off? We should

:52:35.:52:40.

have more flexible rules on state aid. That is our party's position.

:52:41.:52:46.

It is a reform we need in Europe. am nodding in agreement because

:52:46.:52:50.

when I was a minister in the UK I had something to do with this

:52:50.:52:54.

industry. We had been ahead of the world in technology, there are

:52:54.:52:58.

certain things about this country that we really can export and it is

:52:58.:53:03.

very good for Europe as a whole. Let's get on with it, let's get

:53:03.:53:09.

some help and get this industry develop even more. Does the

:53:09.:53:13.

European Commission have any flexibility? As I understand it,

:53:13.:53:17.

its job is to ensure a level playing field within the European

:53:17.:53:23.

Union, rather than take into account non-European Union tax

:53:23.:53:29.

regimes. Indeed, there is flexibility and the EMS would

:53:29.:53:33.

justify the means and there are internal rules that we need to make

:53:33.:53:41.

sure are fixed. That is a discussion the commission wants to

:53:41.:53:45.

have and we can have, but there is a bigger picture where we need to

:53:45.:53:49.

be conscious that this is a very mobile and global industry and

:53:49.:53:55.

market. We need to get our act together. I want to see the

:53:55.:53:58.

Scottish Government to incentivise the industry to grow in Scotland.

:53:58.:54:05.

That is not where we are now, so I back the UK proposals. If the

:54:05.:54:09.

commission wants to look into this, by all means, but we need to

:54:09.:54:15.

protect and promote his industry. What is your favourite game?

:54:15.:54:20.

enjoy stealing a car and joyriding around town. Where are you from?

:54:20.:54:28.

Glasgow? Originally Glasgow. That is a great city, I was at

:54:28.:54:35.

university there. The forerunner to today's European

:54:35.:54:41.

Union was the European stoat -- the European Coal and Steel Community,

:54:41.:54:46.

made into a treaty in 1951. Since then dozens more treaties have been

:54:47.:54:55.

signed into the EU. Where are all the treaties kept? Adam has been

:54:55.:55:05.
:55:05.:55:06.

finding out. This is where they store the EU's

:55:06.:55:12.

sacred texts, the treaties, well, copies of them. The real ones are

:55:12.:55:18.

in Rome. Philip Evans prepares them for a signing and looks after them

:55:18.:55:24.

in a climate controlled strongroom. The first surprise is they do not

:55:24.:55:29.

come in books, but in big boxes. This is the Croatian Accession

:55:29.:55:38.

Treaty. It is quite a tome. What you have here is the treaty and the

:55:38.:55:44.

annexes, the primary law and the final act. All this here is

:55:44.:55:50.

Croatian. A treaty has to be agreed by every Prime Minister and

:55:50.:55:53.

President through a process called the Inter-governmental Conference.

:55:53.:55:59.

Once they are drafted they go through a process called toilettage

:55:59.:56:02.

or scrubbing where linguists support over every word. Then a

:56:02.:56:08.

chilly has to be ratified by every member state. Some are put to a

:56:08.:56:14.

referendum. Here is the one that started it all. The Treaty of Rome

:56:14.:56:19.

signed in 1957 by the six original member states. It sets out the idea

:56:19.:56:22.

of a common market and the principle of an ever closer union

:56:22.:56:30.

of the peoples of Europe. The UK did not join until much later. This

:56:30.:56:35.

way is an absolute ton. This is what Britain signed to join the

:56:35.:56:40.

European Community in 1973. And here is the Maastricht Treaty

:56:40.:56:46.

signed in 1992, which transformed the plain old European Community

:56:46.:56:51.

into a fully-fledged European Union. Each new treaty and Mensah the

:56:51.:56:54.

original Treaty of Rome, so if you want to be up-to-date about how the

:56:54.:57:00.

EU operates today, you need to read the Treaty of Lisbon, signed in

:57:00.:57:04.

2007. Some governments prefer getting their treaties in this

:57:04.:57:10.

format nowadays. The treaties are way the EU takes its great leaps

:57:10.:57:17.

forward, or backwards depending on your point of view. Our friend

:57:17.:57:21.

Philip also organises the signing ceremonies, giving him a ringside

:57:21.:57:26.

seat to history. One thing I have always try to ensure is there is a

:57:26.:57:31.

pen on the table that works. His parents get used more than you

:57:31.:57:35.

might think. The EU signs around 100 other types of official

:57:35.:57:40.

agreements every year. How a man with the treaties, Adam Fleming. Is

:57:40.:57:46.

there going to be another treaty to add to this? We have got more

:57:46.:57:51.

fiscal union, more banking union, which it lead to a new treaty?

:57:51.:57:57.

may well do, but it depends who you talk to it. At one time it was up

:57:57.:58:01.

we would do that, but now Angela Merkel says we want once again. Who

:58:01.:58:10.

knows? She is going to win again in September. When the Prime Minister

:58:10.:58:13.

has successfully renegotiated our position with Europe, we will need

:58:14.:58:22.

a new treaty. Should that not be if? My simplification of the treaty

:58:22.:58:30.

on the website is very much to the point. None of this GMB stuff from

:58:30.:58:36.

you. Do you think the European establishment is up for another

:58:36.:58:42.

treaty? No, not at the moment. We will be, but I think they will want

:58:42.:58:48.

it by that time we have negotiated. He is very optimistic. He is very

:58:48.:58:53.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS