Browse content similar to 07/05/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Daily Politics. Westminster is gearing up for the big event, the | :00:46. | :00:50. | |
Queen's Speech tomorrow. We will have the lowdown on what the | :00:50. | :00:52. | |
government is planning for the year ahead, and what it is not. | :00:52. | :00:56. | |
The speech won't include a commitment to any EU referendum, | :00:56. | :01:00. | |
despite today's call for one from former Chancellor Nigel Lawson. We | :01:00. | :01:03. | |
will discuss the pressure on camera and over Europe. | :01:03. | :01:07. | |
The government is pressing ahead with plans to sell off the Royal | :01:07. | :01:11. | |
mail, or at least part of it. We will speak to the Business | :01:11. | :01:15. | |
Secretary, Vince Cable. We will hear from one MP kicking up a stink about | :01:15. | :01:22. | |
some cheese. That is all coming up in the next | :01:22. | :01:26. | |
hour. With us for the duration, former Labour Home Secretary Alan | :01:26. | :01:31. | |
Johnson. It is so good to see you in daylight! I was beginning to wonder | :01:31. | :01:38. | |
if you were allowed out during the day. | :01:38. | :01:42. | |
Let's start with the news over the weekend of the arrest of the Deputy | :01:43. | :01:48. | |
Speaker of Parliament Nigel Evans. He is accused by two men of rape and | :01:48. | :01:51. | |
sexual assault, charges leave a and Lee denies. Let's get the latest | :01:51. | :01:58. | |
from Carole Walker. -- charges he is a are mentally denies. Nigel Evans | :01:58. | :02:02. | |
will be holding a press briefing in the next couple of hours. We believe | :02:02. | :02:09. | |
he will simply be -- simply be outside the Houses of Parliament | :02:09. | :02:14. | |
that he is getting on with his job as an MP, attending meetings as | :02:14. | :02:18. | |
Deputy Speaker even though we know he will not be sitting in the chair | :02:18. | :02:22. | |
in the Commons for the Jura Asian of the debate on the Queen's Speech, | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
which will go on until the middle of next week -- for the Jura Asian of | :02:26. | :02:30. | |
the debate. Here is not hiding away from the allegations, which he has | :02:30. | :02:34. | |
described as completely false. He has a lot of support from fellow | :02:34. | :02:40. | |
MPs, but I understand that behind-the-scenes there is concern | :02:40. | :02:44. | |
that the office of Speaker and Deputy Speaker should not be in | :02:44. | :02:49. | |
anyway caught up with controversy. Nigel Evans was elected by fellow | :02:49. | :02:53. | |
MPs, it is up to the House of Commons what happens to him in the | :02:53. | :02:58. | |
future. Because he is one of the first Deputy Speakers elected in | :02:58. | :03:04. | |
this way, the rules and mechanisms are not entirely clear about if it | :03:04. | :03:08. | |
was considered best for him to step aside. There will be meetings to try | :03:08. | :03:13. | |
to clarify that, but for the time being the hope is that Nigel Evans | :03:13. | :03:18. | |
will not sit in the chair for the next week or so. After that there | :03:18. | :03:21. | |
are only if you parliamentary days before recess, so perhaps the matter | :03:21. | :03:31. | |
:03:31. | :03:37. | ||
can be left for a fewer weeks until it is | :03:38. | :03:43. | |
The principle is interesting. Should those accused of this sort of sexual | :03:43. | :03:47. | |
offence, arrested but not charged, and it looks like he won't be, | :03:47. | :03:51. | |
should they have anonymity at least until they have been charged? | :03:51. | :03:57. | |
don't think so. This was a coalition policy, no one knows where it | :03:57. | :04:03. | |
emerged from, it was not in any manifesto. But that was in the | :04:03. | :04:09. | |
coalition agreement. It took about two months for them to do an | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
inelegant U-turn. They are not going to do it now. There was a real body | :04:13. | :04:18. | |
of opinion that said, why should rape be the only crime, not murder, | :04:18. | :04:25. | |
not child abuse, not a fraud, where the defendant has anonymity? And the | :04:25. | :04:30. | |
other body of evidence suggests that many women, seeing the defendant, | :04:30. | :04:37. | |
most people guilty of rape have raped other women, and that was a | :04:37. | :04:47. | |
:04:47. | :04:48. | ||
big factor in many high-profile rape cases, the fact that other women | :04:48. | :04:51. | |
came forward, such as that taxi driver in London, other people came | :04:51. | :04:58. | |
forward. The Associaton of Chief Police Officers, they say they want | :04:58. | :05:03. | |
to end, quote, the bizarre power game where journalists try to come | :05:03. | :05:11. | |
out with the names of people. They talk about a blanket ban on names | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
being released. When Quentin Blunt, then the minister, withdrew | :05:14. | :05:19. | |
anonymity for rape defendant, he did so on the basis that they would look | :05:19. | :05:23. | |
at trying to find a way that these names would not come out in the | :05:23. | :05:28. | |
media and through the police. There was another way of tackling this. | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
Nothing much has happened, this might spark it off. For the | :05:32. | :05:36. | |
government to decide there is a problem because an MP happens to be | :05:36. | :05:43. | |
the person alleged to have committed the offence, as opposed to all the | :05:43. | :05:49. | |
others, it looks like, we don't mind anyone else, but when it is an MP... | :05:49. | :05:52. | |
Is it not a wee bit suspicious that the press were tipped off in time to | :05:52. | :05:59. | |
get to Pendleton, not a major press hope, photographs of the police | :05:59. | :06:03. | |
going through his car, they knew exactly where the car was parked and | :06:03. | :06:07. | |
all the rest. You have a very suspicious mind, it had not even | :06:07. | :06:13. | |
crossed my mind. Who knows? Knack of the yardstick datapath. Could well | :06:13. | :06:21. | |
have been. You and your suspicious mind. Put it to good use, it is time | :06:21. | :06:25. | |
for our quiz. Writing in The Times today, former Conservative | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
Chancellor Nigel Lawson says it is time for Britain to quit the | :06:30. | :06:33. | |
European Union, but which former Prime Minister does he think David | :06:33. | :06:38. | |
Cameron is following in the footsteps of? Is it Harold Wilson, | :06:38. | :06:43. | |
John Major, Margaret Thatcher or Gordon Brown? At the end of the | :06:43. | :06:51. | |
show, we'll have the correct answer. If I know, Alan knows! That is for | :06:51. | :06:55. | |
sure! Last week the Government signalled its intention to sell off | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
some more of the state's family silver. At least that is what Harold | :06:59. | :07:01. | |
Macmillan called it. Downing Street's famous 'nudge unit' was | :07:01. | :07:05. | |
mentioned - it's been thinking up clever schemes to nudge people to do | :07:05. | :07:08. | |
things like pay their council tax bills on time. And ministers talked | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
of dozens of other areas of government which could be sold into | :07:11. | :07:15. | |
the private sector. But the real biggie was the Royal Mail. Last | :07:15. | :07:17. | |
Monday the Business Minister Michael Fallon announced he was about to | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
start hiring banks to handle the sale of the national postal service, | :07:20. | :07:24. | |
a move made possible by the Postal Services Act passed two years ago. | :07:25. | :07:27. | |
The government's preferred option is to float the company on the stock | :07:28. | :07:30. | |
market, but it's not clear what percentage of the business will be | :07:31. | :07:34. | |
sold initially. Another option on the cards could be selling a stake | :07:34. | :07:39. | |
to a private buyer. The Royal Mail is estimated to be worth between �2 | :07:39. | :07:43. | |
and �3 billion pounds. If the sale goes ahead, Michael Fallon has | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
confirmed that 10% of shares would be reserved for Royal Mail staff - | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
although it's not clear whether they would get a discount. Trade unions | :07:50. | :07:54. | |
are opposed to the move. The General Secretary of the TUC, Frances | :07:54. | :07:59. | |
O'Grady, says that the Government wants to wreck the Royal Mail. And | :07:59. | :08:03. | |
campaigners have warned that if the service is sold off, the price of a | :08:03. | :08:13. | |
:08:13. | :08:14. | ||
a first class stamp could rocket from 60p to �1. | :08:14. | :08:18. | |
The Business Secretary Vince Cable is with us. You have kept away from | :08:18. | :08:25. | |
us, you don't call or write! Happy to come on the programme! Happy to | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
have you. I never thought you would be more Thatcher than Thatcher, | :08:28. | :08:31. | |
Thatcher said she was not prepared to sell off the Royal Mail eco-she | :08:31. | :08:40. | |
was, quote, not prepared to have the Queens head privatised. -- the | :08:40. | :08:46. | |
Queen's head. Bee under Labour, there was a recognition that there | :08:46. | :08:51. | |
was a problem with Royal Mail. There needed to be a lot of investment. A | :08:51. | :09:01. | |
:09:01. | :09:01. | ||
report was produced. One element was bringing in private capital, that is | :09:01. | :09:09. | |
what they are doing. There is nothing new or surprising. Mr Farage | :09:09. | :09:14. | |
has said so, but you are his boss, that the preferred route for the | :09:14. | :09:17. | |
government is an initial public offering, that a chunk of Royal Mail | :09:17. | :09:26. | |
stock would be sold? Correct.Any idea what percentage? We are aiming | :09:26. | :09:34. | |
to sell the majority, the simple reason is that Royal Mail will need | :09:34. | :09:38. | |
to raise capital and modernise, in order to do that it needs to get | :09:38. | :09:43. | |
itself off the public accounts. At the moment it competes with schools | :09:43. | :09:49. | |
and hospitals in capital spending. So Royal Mail spending shows up in | :09:49. | :09:54. | |
public debts? The only way around that is to have some private | :09:54. | :10:02. | |
ownership. Your manifesto says you can only sell off 49 %. We had a | :10:02. | :10:06. | |
debate before the last election. My colleagues wanted a more cautious | :10:06. | :10:14. | |
approach. You wanted more than 49 %? We did at the time -- I did at the | :10:14. | :10:22. | |
time. You will sell off more than 50 %, but on top of that ten % will go | :10:22. | :10:27. | |
to the workers, but how? Will they have to buy shares? Will they be | :10:28. | :10:35. | |
donating shares? We still have to bottom this out. We have to speak to | :10:35. | :10:40. | |
the communication workers union. We are determined that there should be | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
a workers stake in the new Royal Mail. It will be good for them and | :10:45. | :10:54. | |
:10:55. | :10:56. | ||
the company. But they could shell the stairs. -- sell the shares off. | :10:56. | :11:02. | |
Let's say you sell 51 %, then another ten % goes to the | :11:02. | :11:11. | |
workforce, we are up to 61 %, does the remaining 31 -- 39 % stay with | :11:11. | :11:18. | |
the government for a period? The aim is to sell off as much private | :11:18. | :11:28. | |
capital as we need to. It is open, we want to keep our options open | :11:28. | :11:32. | |
with potential buyers and the mechanics of the sale. Former | :11:32. | :11:39. | |
postman Alan Johnson, what do you make of this? I'm a Thatcherite on | :11:39. | :11:48. | |
Royal Mail privatisation. 20 years ago, I think it was the right thing | :11:48. | :11:56. | |
to oppose, and I think it is now. Vince says quite rightly that the | :11:56. | :12:00. | |
problem is how you borrow to get capital into the Royal Mail, and it | :12:00. | :12:02. | |
appears on the government's balance sheet, but the profits of Royal Mail | :12:02. | :12:06. | |
also help to build schools and hospitals. What has happened where | :12:06. | :12:10. | |
there is a broad consensus, the pension fund moved on to government | :12:10. | :12:14. | |
bills rather than weighing Darren Royal Mail, the change in the | :12:14. | :12:18. | |
regulator has transformed Royal Mail, and a great CEO. Their | :12:18. | :12:23. | |
operation treble -- profits have trebled in just a few years. There | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
is a danger that they are selling off a very important part of the | :12:27. | :12:31. | |
infrastructure and, I would even say, the social fabric of this | :12:31. | :12:34. | |
country at a time where it is becoming more profitable. Secondly, | :12:34. | :12:39. | |
there is the issue about breaking apart Royal Mail from the post | :12:39. | :12:48. | |
office. There is already some separation, but there is a synergy. | :12:48. | :12:56. | |
Let Vince Cable response. It is becoming a much better operation. | :12:56. | :13:05. | |
The challenge is enormous. They are losing large chunks of their mail | :13:05. | :13:11. | |
business, they are picking it up on the parcel side, but they will have | :13:11. | :13:16. | |
to invest very heavily. I suspect one of the reasons why performance | :13:16. | :13:21. | |
has improved is they know they have to get ready for the market | :13:21. | :13:31. | |
:13:31. | :13:34. | ||
flotation. Are we so bereft of any innovation or imagination in this | :13:34. | :13:37. | |
country that we can't find a way to get some capital into a very, very | :13:37. | :13:40. | |
much appreciated public sector resorts? The tradition is that you | :13:40. | :13:44. | |
do it off the balance sheet, which always makes me suspicious, as you | :13:44. | :13:49. | |
do with network rail? There was a lot of creativity under your former | :13:49. | :13:57. | |
Prime Minister excavation mark I helped with some of that creativity! | :13:57. | :14:03. | |
The hallmark of the British mail system, which almost every other | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
country copied, was that there was a single price for sending a letter | :14:07. | :14:14. | |
anywhere, not a parcel but a letter. That is enshrined in legislation for | :14:14. | :14:21. | |
about eight years? What would happen after that? It is for Parliament to | :14:21. | :14:26. | |
decide. Parliament has to decide if that has changed. One of the key | :14:26. | :14:29. | |
objectives of privatisation is to underpin the universal service | :14:29. | :14:35. | |
obligation, which is a guaranteed of a uniform price. If the Royal Mail | :14:35. | :14:41. | |
is not viable, we can't uphold universal service obligations. | :14:41. | :14:45. | |
party is criticising, quote, the timing of privatisation, but not the | :14:46. | :14:55. | |
:14:56. | :14:56. | ||
principal. We voted against this. Royal Mail is improving all the | :14:56. | :15:01. | |
time. George Osborne is desperate to do something about the borrowing | :15:01. | :15:07. | |
statistics, �245 billion more than planned, he has all the harm -- it | :15:07. | :15:10. | |
has all the hallmarks of a fire sale. They haven't thought through | :15:10. | :15:16. | |
whole elements of which. In which case, this has been in public | :15:16. | :15:22. | |
ownership for around 370 years, what is the rush? If it was a fire sale, | :15:22. | :15:27. | |
why have we taken two years? Because you needed to get the pension fund | :15:27. | :15:35. | |
of the books. The key issue is, what would you guys do? Chuka Umunna made | :15:35. | :15:42. | |
it very clear that the debate is now closed. You will not re-nationalise | :15:42. | :15:47. | |
it, we all know that. We are at the end of that particular story. | :15:47. | :15:51. | |
the Queen's Speech tomorrow, on immigration, the proposals are to | :15:51. | :15:56. | |
toughen up a lot of things on welfare as immigrants get paid or do | :15:56. | :16:06. | |
:16:06. | :16:11. | ||
not get paid. You happy to go along We have overseas students come to | :16:11. | :16:18. | |
go Britain and I would encourage that. | :16:18. | :16:23. | |
We picked up, we didn't need these elections to tell us, there is a | :16:23. | :16:30. | |
lot of public anxiety and much of it centres not on the gree gree | :16:30. | :16:34. | |
free movement of -- the free movement of people per per se, but | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
it is the sense that people come from overseas and get benefits they | :16:38. | :16:44. | |
are not entitled to. Your party fought the election an | :16:44. | :16:47. | |
an amnesty. Wasn't that a principled position? Wasn't it the | :16:47. | :16:54. | |
right position to start again and have a line drawn under it? Nick | :16:54. | :16:57. | |
Clegg made it clear that he he thought that was a mistake and we | :16:57. | :16:59. | |
shouldn't have done that. I'm asking you? We have agreed that | :16:59. | :17:06. | |
we are we are not going down that road again. The amnesty has been | :17:06. | :17:12. | |
abandoned? Well, it had merits and demerits. People didn't like it.It | :17:12. | :17:16. | |
created a lot of public anxiety P. What do you make of Nigel Lawson | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
saying he will vote against. He doesn't think there will be much | :17:20. | :17:24. | |
repatriation and he will vote to get out? Well, he is a clever guy, | :17:24. | :17:29. | |
but he is often wrong on the issues like climate change and this. The | :17:29. | :17:34. | |
problem he has and is explaining what the alternative model. I mean | :17:34. | :17:37. | |
if you decide to leave the European Union, what are you going to | :17:37. | :17:43. | |
negotiate with? He is a free trader I think so you would need to have | :17:43. | :17:46. | |
agreement on the continuation of the single market, free trade | :17:46. | :17:49. | |
arrangements. I am not sure how he would secure that. | :17:49. | :17:53. | |
And where are you on the the idea that it is popular on parts of the | :17:53. | :17:56. | |
Tory backbenches for a mandate referendum whereby a referendum | :17:56. | :18:00. | |
would take place mandating the Government to go and repatriate | :18:00. | :18:04. | |
powers from Brussels? Well, I don't see the need for that. Parliament | :18:04. | :18:07. | |
has already set out the ground rules for a referendum. We have | :18:07. | :18:12. | |
passed that legislation. But if the terms of our treaty position | :18:12. | :18:15. | |
changes, we we should have a referendum. Parliament has decide | :18:15. | :18:19. | |
that had. We don't need to go back on that. | :18:19. | :18:22. | |
The Lib Dems would not support a Conservative part of the coalition | :18:22. | :18:28. | |
trying to introduce mandate legislation? | :18:28. | :18:33. | |
On the business of RBS if the Treasury is going to sell RBS at a | :18:33. | :18:39. | |
loss and it looks as if that is what they are going to do. Wouldn't | :18:39. | :18:45. | |
it be better to nationalise RBS? we had gone back fours years ago, | :18:45. | :18:48. | |
that would be the thing to do. Nationalise it now would require | :18:48. | :18:53. | |
the acquisition of the remaining shares... Not that much?It is a | :18:53. | :18:58. | |
somebody standings sum of money. My main concern about RBS is the | :18:58. | :19:01. | |
taxpayer get value money for money when it is sold. | :19:01. | :19:09. | |
Well, they won't if it is sold at a loss. It will be sold eventually. | :19:09. | :19:13. | |
There is a big issue about why the big banks including the State banks | :19:13. | :19:18. | |
are not supporting small business and that's a real problem. | :19:18. | :19:23. | |
Are you part of the three out of four who do not regard Ed Miliband | :19:23. | :19:27. | |
as a credible Prime Minister or are you part of the one out of four who | :19:27. | :19:36. | |
does regard him? He has not established that Labour are a | :19:36. | :19:38. | |
credible alternative Government, but that's the challenge to him. | :19:38. | :19:42. | |
His problem is not around personality, but he was part of a | :19:42. | :19:46. | |
Government that oversaw the massive financial crisis and the | :19:46. | :19:52. | |
consequences that flowed from that. So he a credible Prime Minister? | :19:52. | :19:57. | |
Not yet and the challenge is for him to prove he is. | :19:57. | :20:03. | |
Will you come back? I am happy to come back, Andrew. I used to enjoy | :20:03. | :20:07. | |
my appearances on your programme. I will have the diary outside as | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
you are leaving! Now as you may or may not know, we're not on air | :20:12. | :20:18. | |
tomorrow. We are not? That means we don't get paid! | :20:18. | :20:23. | |
The reason? It's the Queen's Speech. The moment when Her Majesty appears | :20:23. | :20:27. | |
in Parliament to read out a list of the Government's plans for the next | :20:27. | :20:29. | |
parliamentary session. Here's our insider's guide to the big event | :20:29. | :20:36. | |
with Quentin Letts of the Daily Q is for Queen's Speech delivered | :20:36. | :20:40. | |
at the State Opening of Parliament. It is the biggest day in the | :20:40. | :20:44. | |
Parliamentary day. All the Queen's horses and the Queen's men and this | :20:44. | :20:48. | |
is where she arrives. The Queen doesn't write the speech herself, | :20:48. | :20:51. | |
mind you. It is written for her by the Cabinet and that is because it | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
sets out the Government's legislative programme for the | :20:55. | :20:59. | |
coming year. The Queen arrives at Parliament, | :20:59. | :21:02. | |
comes up the stairs and into this little room. The Robing Room. This | :21:02. | :21:06. | |
is where she gets ready and she puts on the imperial state state | :21:06. | :21:11. | |
crown. The opening ceremony as we have it today dates back to 1852 | :21:11. | :21:14. | |
when this Palace of Westminster was built, but some parts of the | :21:14. | :21:18. | |
ceremony go back further to times when the Crown and Parliament were | :21:19. | :21:25. | |
on less than friendly terms! Before the Queen travels to | :21:25. | :21:29. | |
Parliament, certain precautions are taken. A member of the Government | :21:29. | :21:32. | |
is held hostage at at Buckingham Palace and is kept there until the | :21:33. | :21:40. | |
monarch returns and the yeoman of the guard searches the zel the | :21:40. | :21:47. | |
cellars of the House of the Parliament for any gun powder. She | :21:47. | :21:51. | |
progresses through the chamber. On the day t it is crammed with VIPs | :21:51. | :21:56. | |
and other guests. Black Rod is sent to to summon MPs to listen to the | :21:56. | :22:01. | |
Queen's Speech.' arrives there -- he arrives there and the door is | :22:01. | :22:05. | |
slammed in his face. MPs don't open it until he struck on the door with | :22:06. | :22:12. | |
his staff of office. Black Rod leads MPs back towards | :22:12. | :22:16. | |
the House of Lords. They amble slowly not wish to go appear too | :22:16. | :22:20. | |
concerned and they listen to the Queen's Speech. It is standing room | :22:20. | :22:29. | |
only. My lords, and members of the House | :22:29. | :22:32. | |
of Commons, my Government's legislative programme will be based | :22:32. | :22:39. | |
upon the principles of freedom, fairness and responsibility. | :22:39. | :22:41. | |
Government's programme as presented in the Queen's Speech is debated | :22:41. | :22:48. | |
for four or five days or for four or five years! Do you think they | :22:49. | :22:58. | |
:22:59. | :23:01. | ||
rent it out for parties? Quentin Letts. Joining us from | :23:01. | :23:04. | |
College Green are Kevin Maguire of the Daily Mirror and Emily Ashton | :23:04. | :23:09. | |
from the Sun. Well, well, we have had local elections, what impact do | :23:09. | :23:12. | |
you think the rise of UKIP in the local elections is going to have? | :23:12. | :23:22. | |
:23:22. | :23:24. | ||
It has to be written on on velum! But, we do know that Nigel Farage | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
is on the Queen's shoulder when she reads it out because we can say the | :23:28. | :23:34. | |
way the Government is spinning and Nigel Lawson will be another guest | :23:34. | :23:41. | |
who is there tomorrow, but we know that there are big issues that the | :23:41. | :23:44. | |
Queen won't address, but they will be dominating the coalition from | :23:44. | :23:47. | |
now on. Do you think we will see anything | :23:47. | :23:52. | |
change substantively in terms of how the Tory-led Government as | :23:52. | :23:55. | |
everyone likes to call it in terms of what they will do? I mean these | :23:55. | :23:59. | |
things have been onted agenda for a while, but they have upped the | :23:59. | :24:03. | |
rhetoric. The message tomorrow will be we are on the side of people who | :24:03. | :24:07. | |
want to work hard and get on. It isn't really anything particularly | :24:08. | :24:11. | |
new. Or controversial? Exactly. Yeah, | :24:11. | :24:15. | |
there will be things like, you know, a crackdown on benefits fraud, | :24:15. | :24:20. | |
foreigners who want to use the NHS, restricting access to the NHS and | :24:20. | :24:30. | |
:24:30. | :24:31. | ||
housing and beating out -- booting out out foreign criminals easily. | :24:31. | :24:35. | |
UKIP who managed to get so many former Tory voters on their side, | :24:35. | :24:41. | |
they want to get them back. Kevin Maguire, if that's Nigel | :24:41. | :24:46. | |
Farage circling above your head... It is nearly opening time, Jo. | :24:46. | :24:53. | |
Kevin Maguire! He has a habit of falling out of | :24:53. | :24:57. | |
planes! Some of the things that were | :24:57. | :25:04. | |
dropped like the pledge for 0.7% of GDP on international aid. That's | :25:04. | :25:09. | |
not going to be there. How symbolic is that? And plain packaging of | :25:09. | :25:14. | |
cigarettes. The fact if you look at the Cameroon issues, minimum | :25:14. | :25:21. | |
pricing of alcohol. They have been put on the back burner or dropped | :25:21. | :25:23. | |
permanently. David Cameron is moving to the right and he will be | :25:24. | :25:28. | |
answering the voice of Nigel Farage and the old days of the huskies and | :25:28. | :25:32. | |
tilting at windmills are long gone and that's the significance and it | :25:32. | :25:36. | |
will lead up to seven weeks time when George Osborne gives his next | :25:36. | :25:39. | |
three year spending plans which will be a bigger political event | :25:39. | :25:42. | |
than the Queen's Speech tomorrow. We will see the direction of the | :25:42. | :25:45. | |
Government, but we will see them moving to the right and getting | :25:45. | :25:49. | |
harsher, that's what they feel voters want. Whether it is the | :25:50. | :25:54. | |
right right strategy, I think it is the wrong strategy, but I think | :25:54. | :25:57. | |
that's where we will see the Government go. | :25:57. | :26:03. | |
Emily, Lord Lawson's intervention is hardly a vote of confidence in | :26:03. | :26:05. | |
David Cameron's campaign to go for a reformed relationship with the | :26:05. | :26:12. | |
EU? Well, it is not ideal, is it? I don't know how central Lord Lawson | :26:12. | :26:17. | |
is to UK politics now, but the fact that he is saying a renegotiation | :26:17. | :26:22. | |
with Europe would fail is not quite what David Cameron wants to hear. | :26:22. | :26:26. | |
And it will probably mean his right-wing Tory MPs feel the same | :26:26. | :26:31. | |
that a renegotiation is word, what does it mean? What does the changes | :26:31. | :26:35. | |
mean for Europe? It will ring a few bells and get people on side with | :26:35. | :26:38. | |
Lord Lawson. On Europe, what about the the | :26:38. | :26:42. | |
Liberal Democrats? We have had Vince Cable on talking to him about | :26:42. | :26:47. | |
mandate referendums which have been suggested by Tory backbenchers, the | :26:47. | :26:52. | |
Liberal Democrats won support it. - - won't support it. What's the mood | :26:52. | :26:56. | |
amongst them? The Labour attacks on the Liberal Democrats, they are | :26:56. | :26:59. | |
accomplices of David Cameron sting them and they like to to show they | :26:59. | :27:02. | |
have a more positive agenda. Sometimes they can get measures | :27:02. | :27:08. | |
they want. On Europe, I think, they are a party that won't move. They | :27:08. | :27:15. | |
promise add add add in/out referendum. They will hold their | :27:15. | :27:20. | |
ground. It is a fascinating period in politics. Europe's torn the Tory | :27:20. | :27:26. | |
Party apart in the past, maybe it will do it again. Labour's is solid. | :27:26. | :27:29. | |
The anti-European wing is now small and the Liberal Democrats are just | :27:29. | :27:32. | |
sitting in there. I don't think the Liberal Democrats promising a | :27:32. | :27:35. | |
referendum would would win them votes at next election. They are | :27:35. | :27:40. | |
going to go down far and the hole campaign will be to defend the | :27:40. | :27:43. | |
seats they already have. Thank you. Enjoy the Queen's Speech. | :27:43. | :27:48. | |
Thank you. David Cameron, wasn't tilting at | :27:48. | :27:56. | |
windmills, he will building them. So was his father-in-law. Solar | :27:56. | :28:00. | |
panels. He wanted to put them in his wee | :28:00. | :28:04. | |
back garden of 20,000 acres. When is a blue cheese that tastes | :28:04. | :28:07. | |
like Stilton, smells like Stilton and is made in the village of | :28:07. | :28:10. | |
Stilton not a stilton? Well, the answer is when it's manufacturers | :28:10. | :28:13. | |
have no right to call it so under legal protection of products and | :28:13. | :28:23. | |
:28:23. | :28:23. | ||
traditional foods that are tightly controlled. But what if new | :28:23. | :28:26. | |
research suggests the so called "source of origin" is more | :28:26. | :28:28. | |
complicated than those rules allow? I though you have been thinking | :28:28. | :28:31. | |
about this night and day for weeks. So Giles has been hunting for | :28:31. | :28:35. | |
scraps to find an answer. It is time for a bit of honesty, being a | :28:35. | :28:37. | |
political reporter in and around Westminster is a tough job. There | :28:37. | :28:39. | |
is a lot of pressures and the working conditions aren't great. | :28:39. | :28:43. | |
You never know when the next meal is coming from and have to put up | :28:43. | :28:46. | |
with rough things like this. There is a reason why I'm out here with | :28:46. | :28:51. | |
this. All the products on the table are protected by law. If you want | :28:51. | :29:01. | |
to sell them under a certain name. Certain morex, a Melton Mowbray | :29:01. | :29:11. | |
:29:11. | :29:11. | ||
pork pie must have come from mel tonne Mowbray. From Melton Mowbray. | :29:11. | :29:16. | |
Sam pain has to come from the champagne region otherwise it is | :29:16. | :29:22. | |
just sparkling white wine. Let me introduce my guest. I I thought the | :29:22. | :29:26. | |
principle of this legislation was to protect a traditional recipe or | :29:26. | :29:29. | |
product from cheap copies, marketing under the brand. What's | :29:29. | :29:34. | |
wrong with that? There is nothing wrong and I am in favour of ensure | :29:34. | :29:37. | |
when you have a product that calls itself a certain product and says | :29:37. | :29:41. | |
it is from a certain areas, that's what it is and if there are going | :29:41. | :29:45. | |
to be cheap imitations then that's wrong. So we should have quality | :29:45. | :29:49. | |
control. What I am saying, there are strict rules here and there | :29:49. | :29:53. | |
ought to be flexibility because as time goes on, it is possible that | :29:53. | :29:58. | |
that people may unearth things like they may find that a particular | :29:58. | :30:02. | |
product was actually made or grown in a particular area and therefore, | :30:02. | :30:06. | |
they need to revise the rules to include something else. That is all | :30:06. | :30:12. | |
I'm asking for. Let me be clear, I am not suggesting that standards or | :30:12. | :30:22. | |
:30:22. | :30:22. | ||
Apology for the loss of subtitles for 44 seconds | :30:22. | :31:07. | |
quality control should be at the end of the day, you can say | :31:07. | :31:11. | |
that this product is the real product. What I am trying to argue | :31:11. | :31:16. | |
is that these rules are so strict that sometimes it can be difficult | :31:16. | :31:22. | |
to break through. In a time of austerity, these are nice, high | :31:22. | :31:28. | |
quality products, which are you partial to? A bit of cheese, | :31:28. | :31:32. | |
genuinely, a bit of Stilton to use with a bit of wine closedown well. | :31:32. | :31:40. | |
-- a bit of Stilton to. I think we should have lunch now! Shailesh Vara | :31:40. | :31:47. | |
is joined as in the studio, as has Nigel White, the chairman of the | :31:47. | :31:53. | |
Stilton Cheesemakers Association. -- Shailesh Vara has joined us. Does it | :31:53. | :31:56. | |
not seem silly that a cheese produced in Stilton cannot call | :31:56. | :32:06. | |
:32:06. | :32:07. | ||
itself a Stilton to? The name was protected in 1967 or 68 by a | :32:07. | :32:09. | |
certification trademark granted to the Stilton Cheesemakers | :32:09. | :32:14. | |
Association, which said that it must be made to a prescribed recipe in | :32:14. | :32:16. | |
the counties of Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire and Leicestershire. | :32:16. | :32:22. | |
But some historians say that Stilton is has got its name after being sold | :32:22. | :32:26. | |
to travellers passing through the village of Stilton in the 18th | :32:26. | :32:34. | |
century? So it came from there? about 1745 onwards, most of the | :32:34. | :32:36. | |
Stilton was coming from Leicestershire and Nottinghamshire. | :32:36. | :32:42. | |
As far as we know, there has been no cheese made in the village of | :32:42. | :32:47. | |
Stilton for at least 200 years. there was a Stilton and is recipe | :32:47. | :32:52. | |
published in a newsletter by Richard Radley in 1723. I remember reading | :32:52. | :33:01. | |
about it at the time! It was a recipe for what was called Stilton. | :33:01. | :33:04. | |
The recipe bears no relationship whatsoever with the cheese protected | :33:05. | :33:11. | |
from 1968 onwards, that recipe was what we call cooked, pressed, cream | :33:11. | :33:15. | |
cheese. No mention of blue. The Stilton we have been making the | :33:15. | :33:20. | |
dairies for well over 100 years is unimpressed, uncooked, blue veined | :33:20. | :33:30. | |
cheese. You are a bunch of imposters! Not at all. A local | :33:30. | :33:34. | |
historian, working with the people making the cheese in Stilton at the | :33:34. | :33:39. | |
moment, they have come up with a pamphlet dating from 1722 which not | :33:39. | :33:43. | |
only speaks of Stilton making a cheese that of making Stilton is. | :33:43. | :33:48. | |
There is a book which makes reference to the village, and even | :33:48. | :33:55. | |
Daniel Defoe, writing in 1724, makes reference to Stilton and is being | :33:55. | :34:00. | |
made in the village of Stilton. Lawrence says a perfect Stilton | :34:00. | :34:06. | |
should be about seven inches in diameter, eight inches in height, | :34:06. | :34:08. | |
and weigh about �18, which is exactly what my Christmas Stilton | :34:08. | :34:18. | |
:34:18. | :34:20. | ||
did. But this was referred to as the English Parmesan. You ought to put | :34:20. | :34:25. | |
the facts straight, no recipe at the moment adheres to what was made in | :34:25. | :34:29. | |
the 18th century. In the 18th century, the cheese made in the | :34:29. | :34:32. | |
village of Stilton was the same as is subsequently amazed in | :34:32. | :34:38. | |
Leicestershire. Foreign muck? ! Leicestershire, Derbyshire and | :34:38. | :34:47. | |
Nottinghamshire are new boys to the scene. The owner of the Bluebell in | :34:47. | :34:55. | |
wanted to increase production, he did a deal with Leicestershire, a | :34:55. | :35:01. | |
married couple, they then allowed Leicestershire... Or I would say to | :35:01. | :35:05. | |
Nigel is produce the facts, produced the dates and the documents and the | :35:05. | :35:11. | |
authors. Have you been making cheese in Stilton for the last 200 years? | :35:11. | :35:17. | |
Nigel says you have not. There has not been cheese for a while, I don't | :35:17. | :35:24. | |
know for how long. If you want to change the European definition, it | :35:24. | :35:30. | |
does not say it needs to be made in... It does.It says it should | :35:31. | :35:36. | |
originally have been made there, and it was. I certainly know that one | :35:36. | :35:40. | |
man has been making cheese for the past two years which to all intents | :35:40. | :35:50. | |
:35:50. | :35:50. | ||
and purposes is Stilton and is. does it matter? For 100 years we had | :35:50. | :35:57. | |
none at all. Why does it matter? matters that consumers need to know | :35:57. | :36:02. | |
where the product comes from. What the protected designation does to | :36:02. | :36:06. | |
any product is to tell the consumer worried has come from. At the moment | :36:06. | :36:12. | |
it can only come from those three counties. Unless Nigel produces | :36:12. | :36:17. | |
evidence, what this boils downed two is the existing Stilton is the ones | :36:17. | :36:21. | |
to maintain their monopoly and cartel, they don't want anybody knew | :36:21. | :36:30. | |
breaking the market. You as the chairman of the Stilton to should | :36:30. | :36:40. | |
:36:40. | :36:41. | ||
say, welcome on board if you can provide the evidence. Up to now you | :36:41. | :36:51. | |
:36:51. | :36:51. | ||
Apology for the loss of subtitles for 44 seconds | :36:51. | :37:52. | |
Agriculture and then it has to go evidence and we have got to problem | :37:52. | :37:55. | |
with that. You have got to eat that before you | :37:55. | :38:05. | |
:38:05. | :38:11. | ||
The political show moves on to tomorrow's Queen's Speech. It is | :38:11. | :38:16. | |
the moment when the Government sets the agenda for the next 12 months. | :38:16. | :38:22. | |
So what's on the cards? Jo has the details. Well, the much trailed | :38:22. | :38:26. | |
Pensions Bill will introduce a single tier pension of �134 a week | :38:26. | :38:32. | |
for everyone in Britain who spends 35 years working or or caring for | :38:32. | :38:38. | |
children or the elderly. A new Immigration Bill is coming our way. | :38:38. | :38:44. | |
It will allow foreign criminals to be deported more easily. | :38:44. | :38:54. | |
:38:54. | :38:56. | ||
There will be a High-Speed Two Bill. Many Conservative backbenchers will | :38:56. | :39:04. | |
be pleased that the commitment to dedicate 0.7% to international aid | :39:04. | :39:09. | |
will not be enthis rind in law -- enshrined in law and there will be | :39:09. | :39:14. | |
no snoopers charter. Despite the UKIP surge there will be no Bill | :39:14. | :39:18. | |
paving the way for an EU referendum in the Queen's Speech. | :39:18. | :39:27. | |
Thanks, Jo. With us now is Bob Neill. So are | :39:27. | :39:36. | |
you giving up on the standard white cigarette packages and on the | :39:36. | :39:39. | |
enshrining aid in law and you are going to be tough on immigrants in | :39:39. | :39:42. | |
welfare. I guess UKIP is getting its way? | :39:42. | :39:47. | |
Well, we needed to make space in the programme for the cheeses | :39:47. | :39:53. | |
description amendments Bill, didn't we, Andrew? | :39:53. | :39:59. | |
UKIP would like that! What we are con concentrating on are measures | :39:59. | :40:03. | |
dealing with making sure the economy gets back on track, | :40:03. | :40:07. | |
removing regulation and making sure we assist businesses going for | :40:07. | :40:11. | |
growth. That's the key for the coming few months. | :40:11. | :40:14. | |
What will be in the Queen's Speech that will get growth among | :40:14. | :40:18. | |
businesses? Well, I am not going to pre-empt what's going to be in the | :40:18. | :40:25. | |
Queen's Speech. But you will find a number of pressures there | :40:25. | :40:32. | |
Give aus give us a taste of one? And there will be issues around | :40:32. | :40:36. | |
that and we will be seeing outed important reforms around welfare, | :40:36. | :40:46. | |
:40:46. | :41:06. | ||
so that people don't have the poorer pensions when they are older but | :41:06. | :41:11. | |
they have had, looking after carers. Just in the summary that Jo made | :41:12. | :41:18. | |
earlier, a really good collect Shannon of things will work. -- a | :41:18. | :41:25. | |
really good collection of things. If you see any studies about the | :41:25. | :41:29. | |
Borders agency, it has been disgraceful with many people waiting | :41:29. | :41:37. | |
for ages to see if they are allowed to stay or not. We need to make sure | :41:37. | :41:41. | |
the system works properly so that people who should be here can get | :41:41. | :41:47. | |
here easily, people who should not be here cannot. Why have you | :41:47. | :41:53. | |
abandoned to your pledge to have an amnesty for illegal immigrants? | :41:53. | :42:00. | |
was not a pledge. We have heard of people who have waited for ten or 14 | :42:00. | :42:04. | |
years to have an answer from the Home Office, it strikes me that as a | :42:05. | :42:08. | |
Home Office problem. Don't they deserve to stay? Wipe the slate | :42:08. | :42:17. | |
clean -- clean? People who have been here for a long time are allowed | :42:17. | :42:21. | |
nationality. You have abandoned a principle position which would make | :42:21. | :42:26. | |
life easier for people who have been here illegally for a long time to go | :42:26. | :42:31. | |
for the easier hit of bashing those who are coming recently. I said we | :42:31. | :42:35. | |
wanted to make it easier for people who should be here to get here. | :42:35. | :42:38. | |
Constituents find it very hard to get family visas, asylum claims are | :42:39. | :42:44. | |
waiting for years, the Home Secretary is doing an inquiry | :42:44. | :42:49. | |
because it is a disgrace that it takes so long. People who should be | :42:49. | :42:54. | |
able to get into the country find it very hard, we should be able to fix | :42:54. | :42:58. | |
that. It is hard to avoid the impression that you are running out | :42:58. | :43:02. | |
of steam, there is nothing which will set the heather on fire. | :43:02. | :43:07. | |
are important measures going forward. We are putting lots of | :43:07. | :43:12. | |
things place. I remember my time as a minister, a great deal of the work | :43:12. | :43:17. | |
is about implementation. That is what I mean, it may be that that is | :43:17. | :43:21. | |
where you are. The die is cast on your deficit reduction policy, your | :43:21. | :43:26. | |
welfare reforms are being ruled out, that will not change, your education | :43:26. | :43:31. | |
reforms are still a work in progress. In a sense, you at a stage | :43:31. | :43:36. | |
where there are no more big ideas. It is trying to do and get credit | :43:36. | :43:41. | |
for what you already doing? Doing the job we set out to do, we should | :43:41. | :43:48. | |
not apologise for that. Alan Johnson, you said that the aftermath | :43:48. | :43:53. | |
was -- aftermath of last week's election was that David Miliband is | :43:53. | :43:59. | |
showing too much alike? What does that mean? It is a fixed term | :43:59. | :44:09. | |
:44:09. | :44:10. | ||
parliament, you do not know when the election will be called, it could be | :44:10. | :44:14. | |
four years, it could be slightly less. We know there will not be an | :44:14. | :44:17. | |
election until 2015, so under those circumstances, no opposition serious | :44:17. | :44:20. | |
about getting into government wants to reveal too much to years ahead. | :44:20. | :44:23. | |
You can reveal the direction of travel. The criticism of Ed | :44:23. | :44:29. | |
Miliband, there is a whole raft... What a lot of people see as the | :44:29. | :44:34. | |
problem is that the direction of travel has been to an unspecified | :44:34. | :44:38. | |
vague new left, but all the suggestions are that the country is | :44:38. | :44:43. | |
moving right. I can see nothing that will come in this Queen's Speech | :44:43. | :44:48. | |
that tackles the main problem, lack of growth, a stagnant economy. What | :44:48. | :44:55. | |
Ed Miliband is doing is saying how we can get the economy going. | :44:55. | :45:02. | |
I don't agree that Ed Miliband has revealed very much policy at all. If | :45:02. | :45:06. | |
the sheer number of bills passed was the test of success, the last | :45:06. | :45:10. | |
government would have been a huge success. How many Immigration Bills | :45:10. | :45:18. | |
did you have, eight or nine? last government dealt with the most | :45:18. | :45:20. | |
serious economic crisis the world has had for 45 years. You campaigned | :45:20. | :45:26. | |
on the same platform as us with Vince Cable, if you overdo austerity | :45:26. | :45:32. | |
you will choke growth. We had growth of 1.8 % coming out of a recession, | :45:32. | :45:37. | |
it is ridiculous for the Liberal Democrats to say that there was | :45:37. | :45:42. | |
nothing in America, Lehman Brothers didn't happen, we got into this | :45:42. | :45:47. | |
situation because we recruited more nurses and teachers. You deregulated | :45:47. | :45:56. | |
the banks, you allowed the boom to continue. Are you in favour of | :45:56. | :46:06. | |
:46:06. | :46:10. | ||
having a mandate referendum whereby you introduce a Referendum Bill, and | :46:10. | :46:14. | |
the people voting would or would not mandate the government to | :46:14. | :46:17. | |
renegotiate their powers? Are you in favour? The one caveat about that is | :46:17. | :46:24. | |
we know... I am in favour of exploring all the options and making | :46:24. | :46:34. | |
it very clear that we set out our stall for renegotiation and what it | :46:34. | :46:38. | |
would be. We said we would publish a draft before the general election. I | :46:38. | :46:42. | |
am in favour of publishing the draft bill, that makes sense. Whether or | :46:42. | :46:46. | |
not the bill which would probably not get through adds anything to | :46:46. | :46:50. | |
that, that is a question. Would it not help you with that was opposed | :46:51. | :46:54. | |
by other parties? You would say they had a chance to vote, and the only | :46:54. | :46:56. | |
party which would give you a referendum is to vote Conservative? | :46:56. | :46:59. | |
That is superficially attractive, but we have already shown that the | :46:59. | :47:04. | |
Prime Minister has delivered on the veto and the renegotiation of the | :47:04. | :47:14. | |
:47:14. | :47:17. | ||
Budget, he will do that on the Government is to keep us safe, but | :47:17. | :47:21. | |
monitoring those who would do us harm becomes more difficult and | :47:21. | :47:24. | |
intrusive on the pif asy of ordinary people. This Government, | :47:24. | :47:28. | |
like the one before t has tried to give the Security Services greater | :47:28. | :47:34. | |
powers to monitor the internet, but its latest attempt, the | :47:34. | :47:37. | |
Communications Data Bill has been vetoed by Nick Clegg and won't | :47:38. | :47:45. | |
feature in tomorrow's Queen's Speech. A senior Lib Dem, Lord | :47:45. | :47:48. | |
Carlisle accused his leader of putting party politics above | :47:48. | :47:53. | |
national securitypm. David Thompson reports. | :47:53. | :47:59. | |
Two plots to bring terror to the streets of Britain. One thwarted | :47:59. | :48:03. | |
using surveillance intelligence, the other stopped by a random | :48:03. | :48:08. | |
traffic check. That's the head quarters of MI5. Their job, to keep | :48:08. | :48:12. | |
us safe by keeping one step ahead of terrorism and organised crime. | :48:12. | :48:19. | |
But in an internet age, that job is increasingly difficult which is why | :48:19. | :48:25. | |
successive governments tried to give them increased powers to | :48:25. | :48:29. | |
scrutinise activities on websites. The latest attempt is the | :48:29. | :48:33. | |
Communications Data Bill and experts believe it is crucial. | :48:33. | :48:39. | |
kind of legislation is vital. The data that we are talking about has | :48:39. | :48:44. | |
been used for crucial prsz, murder, -- prosecutions, murder, serious | :48:44. | :48:47. | |
organised crime. I think it is necessary to have this Bill in | :48:47. | :48:57. | |
order to organise data which is already available from mobile | :48:57. | :49:00. | |
telephone operators. This is existing material that tells you | :49:00. | :49:03. | |
the the when and the how long of communications. | :49:03. | :49:07. | |
Maybe, but it has been dubbed the snoopers charter and derailed by | :49:07. | :49:12. | |
Nick Clegg and is unlibly to see -- unlikely to see the light of day | :49:12. | :49:18. | |
soon. The main criticism is on privacy grounds. The internet | :49:18. | :49:21. | |
businesses expected to provide information on service users and | :49:21. | :49:25. | |
hold it for 12 months are sceptical too. | :49:25. | :49:29. | |
When you have people like Skype and Microsoft and Google asking what | :49:29. | :49:32. | |
information is it that you want that we don't give you and the | :49:32. | :49:36. | |
officials condition answer that question. Then it is time to take a | :49:36. | :49:39. | |
step back from the Bill as we have and think about what information it | :49:39. | :49:44. | |
is that we need. What people dubbed the snoopers | :49:44. | :49:46. | |
charter, that is not going to happen. | :49:46. | :49:52. | |
Nick Clegg was cheered by civil liberty campaigners when he vetoed | :49:52. | :49:57. | |
the Bill. The man hose job it was to keep tabs on terrorism | :49:57. | :50:04. | |
legislation. He is scathing. He has torpedoed this. I am disappoint | :50:04. | :50:09. | |
that had some of the my my Liberal Democrat colleagues including a few | :50:09. | :50:16. | |
in the Lords decided without knowing any of the evidence to | :50:16. | :50:23. | |
oppose this legislation. If we don't have an organised | :50:23. | :50:27. | |
Communications Data Bill which provides the authorities with | :50:27. | :50:32. | |
access to the when and for how long of mobile phone telephone calls in | :50:33. | :50:36. | |
appropriate cases then there will be increased danger to the public. | :50:36. | :50:39. | |
That doesn't seem like responsible Government. | :50:39. | :50:44. | |
The key task of the men and women who work in these buildings, MI5 | :50:44. | :50:48. | |
and MI6 is to safeguard our freedoms and our way of life. Their | :50:48. | :50:51. | |
challenge to do it without destroying the things they are | :50:51. | :50:57. | |
trying to preserve. Alan Johnston is still with us. He | :50:57. | :51:03. | |
was Home Secretary in Gordon Brown's Government. Alan Johnson as | :51:03. | :51:06. | |
Home Secretary you were privy to intelligence briefings. What do you | :51:07. | :51:16. | |
make of the Liberal Democrats tor peed owing this Bill? -- por -- | :51:16. | :51:23. | |
torpedoing this Bill? I agree with Lord Carlisle. Julian sat on a | :51:23. | :51:33. | |
:51:33. | :51:33. | ||
committee that produced a very good report as did the committee which | :51:33. | :51:41. | |
men zee Campbell Menzies Campbell sits on said there was a problem | :51:41. | :51:44. | |
that the problem is growing and the problem needs to be tackled. It | :51:44. | :51:46. | |
isn't going to be tackled for two years. | :51:46. | :51:50. | |
So was it responsible of the Liberal Democrats to do what they | :51:50. | :51:55. | |
did? No, it was responsible to get the balance right between eitheries | :51:55. | :52:04. | |
and the need for the -- -- civil liberties and there were problems | :52:04. | :52:09. | |
with the draft Bill, but to scupper it... Is it responsible according | :52:09. | :52:14. | |
to your colleague who knows something about this stuff. He did | :52:14. | :52:17. | |
scrutinise terrorism legislation. He says it will lead to an increase | :52:17. | :52:23. | |
in danger to the public. This was irresponsible Government? | :52:23. | :52:29. | |
disagree. A huge amount this data is available. Last year, there were | :52:29. | :52:34. | |
500,000 requests for this data under existing law. We know that | :52:34. | :52:38. | |
Labour tried to expand it, to collect move information on every | :52:38. | :52:41. | |
website that everybody went to. That's what that was and that's | :52:41. | :52:45. | |
what this proposed Bill would have done. It is responsible responsible | :52:45. | :52:50. | |
not to allow that to happen. The committee had a look and we said | :52:50. | :52:53. | |
the information coming from the Home Office was unhelpful and | :52:53. | :53:00. | |
misleading. We never said there was a need for legislation. There was. | :53:00. | :53:03. | |
It doesn't say there was a need. You can have a look and you will | :53:03. | :53:07. | |
see it does not say it. It says there is a case for legislation, | :53:07. | :53:12. | |
but this goes further than it needs That does rather admit there is a | :53:12. | :53:17. | |
case for some sort of law and an enhancing of the laws to pro at the | :53:17. | :53:27. | |
:53:27. | :53:27. | ||
time individuals or to -- enhancing of the laws or to catch criminals? | :53:27. | :53:32. | |
It could lead to less information being available to the police and | :53:32. | :53:37. | |
the Security Services. If you had �1.8 billion to help the police, | :53:37. | :53:40. | |
how would you spend it? His answer was not this Communications Data | :53:40. | :53:44. | |
Bill. It was about having more police on the streets and more | :53:44. | :53:48. | |
training. I am surprised any party wants to spend �1.8 billion on this | :53:48. | :53:53. | |
rather rather than doing proper police. Would it have been value | :53:53. | :53:58. | |
for money? When we have had Alan Johnson saying sophisticated | :53:58. | :54:02. | |
criminals are going to be ahead of the technology and would have about | :54:02. | :54:10. | |
enshrined in this Bill, pointless? Jacqui Smith published the | :54:10. | :54:15. | |
consultation dumb on this. I saw it -- document on this. I think | :54:15. | :54:20. | |
Theresa May and the Conservatives came in and they were libertarian. | :54:20. | :54:24. | |
When they saw the evidence of the gap and no one can say what the gap | :54:24. | :54:28. | |
is because it gives a gift to the people who want to exploit it. It | :54:28. | :54:32. | |
was clear that there is a problem as the Intelligence and Security | :54:32. | :54:39. | |
Committee on which Menzies Campbell sits. | :54:39. | :54:43. | |
There were issues in the join committee report and Nick Brown sat | :54:43. | :54:49. | |
on that and Julian and they they produced valid points. Now, that | :54:49. | :54:54. | |
needs to be taken into account because it was a draft Bill and a | :54:54. | :54:59. | |
new Bill needs to come forward. was a draft because Nick said it | :54:59. | :55:03. | |
was a draft. I will quote you on that. But the issue about the gap | :55:03. | :55:09. | |
has not been substantiated. We have been told there is a 25% gap. The | :55:09. | :55:14. | |
former head of Fife said that relied -- MI5 said that. It was | :55:14. | :55:19. | |
said by the former head of MI5. The case has not been made to spend | :55:19. | :55:24. | |
billions of points setting up a database to keep track of every | :55:24. | :55:29. | |
wooilt we go to. Every time we do something on Google, send a Gmail | :55:29. | :55:32. | |
that's a huge amount of personal information. | :55:32. | :55:36. | |
What you have not answered is, was it right to get rid of the | :55:36. | :55:39. | |
legislation as a result? It is right not to have this new Bill, | :55:39. | :55:41. | |
yes. You could have put safeguards in. | :55:41. | :55:47. | |
You admitted there is a case to be made for new legislation and you | :55:47. | :55:53. | |
have cast aside the legislation? would be comfortable with just | :55:53. | :55:55. | |
having the extra safeguards. I don't think the Home Secretary was | :55:55. | :56:00. | |
happy to do that. There is one issue of data about IP address | :56:00. | :56:04. | |
matching which is is technical where there is agreement. That is | :56:04. | :56:07. | |
what the police told us would be really useful. | :56:07. | :56:11. | |
Are we going to be less safe? Julian was dealing with the police. | :56:11. | :56:15. | |
His colleague was dealing with the intelligence services. A smaller | :56:15. | :56:22. | |
part of this, law enforcement is the major part. 90% of the cases | :56:22. | :56:25. | |
they resolve are resolved because they put together who was | :56:26. | :56:29. | |
contacting who. Who else was in this plot? What the network is. And | :56:29. | :56:34. | |
there is a tranche of this that is not legislated for and that puts us | :56:34. | :56:44. | |
:56:44. | :56:45. | ||
in more dangerpm. I am going to have to finish it there. | :56:45. | :56:49. | |
As well as being a former Home Secretary and former Education | :56:49. | :56:56. | |
Secretary and former chancellor, Alan Johnson turned his hand to | :56:56. | :57:05. | |
writing. This book, This Boy, is out this week. It focuses on Alan's | :57:05. | :57:11. | |
tough upbringing on on an estate in London. Here is a snapshot of his | :57:11. | :57:21. | |
:57:21. | :57:21. | ||
time in politics so far. People from my kind of background | :57:21. | :57:31. | |
:57:31. | :58:00. | ||
It is simple. What we are worried about is you | :58:00. | :58:09. | |
you haven't got the bottle or the experience. | :58:09. | :58:16. | |
We have got the book. This Boy by Alan Johnson and I will make him | :58:16. | :58:26. | |
sign it, but the unsigned copies are worth more. It really is an may | :58:26. | :58:33. | |
an amazing story. My mum had a sad and tough life. She She died young. | :58:33. | :58:37. | |
I call her Lily. She had a terrible life. She had a terrible life that | :58:37. | :58:42. | |
that me and my sister escaped from because of her courage and because | :58:42. | :58:48. | |
of her... Your sister a hero.She should have been Prime Minister! | :58:49. | :58:52. | |
That generation, they took comfort in us having a better life? | :58:52. | :58:55. | |
Absolutely. They came through the war. My mother came from a family | :58:55. | :59:00. | |
of ten. Two of her siblings died young. A really tough life and were | :59:00. | :59:02. | |
really, really determined to deliver a better future. | :59:03. | :59:06. | |
We have to go. Harold Wilson is the answer to our quiz. He went to | :59:06. | :59:13. | |
Europe to renegotiate and didn't give much back. That's it for today. | :59:13. | :59:19. |