Browse content similar to 13/05/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Politics. As David Cameron got itself into a pickle about Europe? | :00:45. | :00:50. | |
He has promised a referendum in 2017 but many in his party wanted sooner. | :00:50. | :00:54. | |
News this morning that the prime Minister has rounded on senior | :00:54. | :00:58. | |
Conservatives to call for Britain to leave the youth. We are asking if he | :00:58. | :01:02. | |
has lost control of his party. And it is not just days having a spot of | :01:02. | :01:08. | |
bother at the top. Messrs Miliband and Clegg are feeling the heat, too. | :01:08. | :01:12. | |
Is the NHS being privatised by the back door? We will be talking to | :01:12. | :01:16. | |
Britain top GP. And they are out, Chris Huhne and | :01:16. | :01:22. | |
Vicky Pryce are released from prison. | :01:22. | :01:30. | |
Dash Britain's top GP. With us for the first half of the | :01:30. | :01:33. | |
programme is the chair of the Royal College of GPs, clear Gerada. | :01:33. | :01:37. | |
Welcome to the programme. First, two severely disabled men are at the | :01:37. | :01:40. | |
court of appeal today in an attempt to change the law governing the | :01:40. | :01:45. | |
right to die. One of them is Paul Lamb, whose paralysis means that he | :01:45. | :01:49. | |
is physically incapable of ending his life. He wants a doctor to be | :01:49. | :01:52. | |
allowed to help him. If you were in a position and he asked you to help | :01:52. | :01:56. | |
them, what would you do? At the moment, it is against the law so | :01:56. | :02:02. | |
I've would not be able to help them. It is a difficult subject, very | :02:02. | :02:05. | |
emotive, with arguments on both sides. On the one hand, state | :02:05. | :02:09. | |
sanctioned death is difficult to think about but on the other hand, | :02:09. | :02:13. | |
we have this sad case of somebody who clearly understands and wants to | :02:13. | :02:19. | |
die. As the representative of 40,000 GPs, we are debating this at the | :02:19. | :02:25. | |
moment. We are debating whether medical bodies should have a view at | :02:25. | :02:30. | |
all and whether we should trump the man on the omnibus. Just like the | :02:30. | :02:35. | |
rest of the country, we're torn. Some want it, and some do not. It is | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
a difficult issue. But you are put in that position quite often. | :02:39. | :02:44. | |
Although you say that it is against the law, and it is against them for | :02:44. | :02:48. | |
a GP to actually help someone to die that position, but there is a grey | :02:48. | :02:53. | |
area. Somebody is in such pain and doctors must have been asked up | :02:53. | :02:59. | |
until now, could they give more pain relief, would they be able to give | :02:59. | :03:03. | |
more pills, perhaps, in the knowledge, even though it is never | :03:04. | :03:09. | |
said, that that person may then try to take one life. And yes, it is | :03:09. | :03:18. | |
very difficult. -- take their own life. It is very difficult to | :03:18. | :03:22. | |
predict when someone will die. Why would try to relieve someone's pain | :03:23. | :03:27. | |
and do everything I can to palliative against it. Whether would | :03:27. | :03:32. | |
deliberately invent -- inject someone with drugs that and you | :03:32. | :03:40. | |
would kill them is going through to fire. Even the GPs holding someone's | :03:40. | :03:45. | |
hand. Who should be responsible for changing the law? Should the | :03:45. | :03:49. | |
Parliament who makes the decision? think it should be Parliament. | :03:49. | :03:52. | |
Parliament should take the views of their constituents and discuss it in | :03:52. | :03:56. | |
Parliament. If it does happen, then doctors are going to have to shape | :03:56. | :04:02. | |
the governance. Let abortion, it should not be doctors who determine | :04:02. | :04:07. | |
it. -- like abortion. Should they not have more of a say given they | :04:07. | :04:13. | |
are on the frontline? I do not think we should have more of a sake. We | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
should have more to say on how it should happen, if it happens, but on | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
a personal level, we should not have any more of a saving you or the lady | :04:20. | :04:26. | |
that made me up. My view should not trump your view or the man on the | :04:26. | :04:34. | |
Clapham omnibus. Now it is time for our daily quiz. Today's question is, | :04:34. | :04:36. | |
which MP would win a House of Commons fight? According to a poll | :04:36. | :04:40. | |
Commons fight? According to a poll out this weekend. Is it David | :04:40. | :04:47. | |
Cameron, Theresa May, Ed Balls or Cameron, Theresa May, Ed Balls or | :04:47. | :04:50. | |
Jacob Rees-Mogg? And we will find out the answer at the end of the | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
show. You will be pleased to know that is not one for you. Spare a | :04:54. | :04:59. | |
thought for David Cameron. The Prime Minister has gone to America to talk | :04:59. | :05:03. | |
to President Obama about a trade deal between the United States and | :05:03. | :05:06. | |
the European Union. While he is out of the country, his party had taken | :05:06. | :05:09. | |
the opportunity to behave like naughty schoolchildren and have a | :05:09. | :05:14. | |
fight. Over what? Europe, of course. David Cameron thought counties party | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
down when he pledged to hold an in-out referendum on Europe in 2017. | :05:18. | :05:24. | |
But it was not enough. -- thought he had calmed his party down. Now he is | :05:24. | :05:28. | |
in a spot of bother keeping his class in order as more and more | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
backbenchers talk about Britain's future in the EU. There will be a | :05:32. | :05:35. | |
vote on Wednesday after some Tory MPs tabled an amendment which | :05:35. | :05:38. | |
criticises the Queen's Speech for not including any bill paving the | :05:38. | :05:43. | |
way to a referendum. And it is not just the usual troublemakers at the | :05:43. | :05:46. | |
back of the classroom making all the noise. The Education Secretary, | :05:46. | :05:50. | |
Michael Gove, and Defence Secretary, Philip Hammond, have | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
packed up, saying that they would opt to leave the EU if they render | :05:54. | :05:59. | |
random was held. -- is a referendum was held. Meanwhile, Boris Johnson | :05:59. | :06:04. | |
says that David Cameron must make clear that Britain is ready to walk | :06:04. | :06:09. | |
away unless the relationship with Europe is reformed. And with UKIP | :06:09. | :06:13. | |
buoyed by their success in local elections, and can David Cameron get | :06:13. | :06:17. | |
control of the classroom? Gary O'Donoghue gives us the latest. He | :06:17. | :06:21. | |
is certainly trying to get control of the situation because he has | :06:21. | :06:24. | |
bitten back at senior Tories who said that they would leave the EU if | :06:24. | :06:27. | |
there was a referendum tomorrow. Yes. He has accused them of throwing | :06:27. | :06:34. | |
in the towel. Essentially saying that they do not believe that he | :06:34. | :06:38. | |
could get a negotiated settlement. He has had a swipe at Lord Lawson, | :06:38. | :06:41. | |
the former Chancellor, and his own Cabinet members, Michael Gove and | :06:41. | :06:46. | |
Philip Hammond, saying that there is not a referendum tomorrow, so it is | :06:46. | :06:51. | |
a hypothetical question. The application of that, what is the | :06:51. | :06:55. | |
first rule of being a politician? Don't answer hypothetical questions. | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
He then goes onto say there be be a referendum if they win the next | :06:59. | :07:03. | |
general election. That is a way of saying that if you keep squabbling | :07:03. | :07:06. | |
in public over the tactics, then the public is not going to vote for a | :07:06. | :07:10. | |
divided party. There is a certain amount of irritation coming from the | :07:10. | :07:14. | |
Prime Minister. And also, of course, he faces the prospect on | :07:14. | :07:21. | |
Wednesday they thought in the Parliament by the on this most | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
polite amendment you will ever get. Tory backbenchers saying that they | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
regret the absence of a Referendum Bill in the Queen's Speech, please | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
may we have one. He is having to allow his ministers to abstain on | :07:33. | :07:41. | |
that for fear of resignations. And backbenchers are having a free rein | :07:41. | :07:44. | |
to vote with the amendment. It is interesting spin from Downing Street | :07:44. | :07:48. | |
this morning, talking about putting the best face on it as they possibly | :07:48. | :07:51. | |
can. The Prime Ministers apparently pleased that the spotlight is being | :07:51. | :07:59. | |
shone on his promise for a referendum, albeit in 2020. And as | :07:59. | :08:04. | |
he really intensely relaxed about the amendment? -- is he really. It | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
is inevitable. He knows it was coming down the line. He will argue | :08:07. | :08:13. | |
that this is a position of the Conservative party, so that is how | :08:13. | :08:17. | |
they can justify allowing the backbenchers to do what they like. | :08:17. | :08:21. | |
But they are in a coalition government, and it is not the policy | :08:21. | :08:23. | |
of the coalition government, therefore his ministers cannot vote | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
for this thing, so they will have two abstain or vote with the | :08:26. | :08:31. | |
government. In a sense, the arguments are out to that extent, | :08:31. | :08:36. | |
but exquisite for the time being. The problem is that the Conservative | :08:36. | :08:40. | |
party is a pretty Euro-sceptic party in Parliament. We know that. This is | :08:40. | :08:47. | |
not a Civil War, but it certainly feels like it. | :08:47. | :08:50. | |
Without is the Conservative MP, Peter Bone, one of the MPs who has | :08:50. | :08:56. | |
tabled the amendment. Emma Reynolds, the Shadow Europe Minister, and you | :08:56. | :09:03. | |
could later, Nigel Farage, also join me. The amendment that we have put | :09:03. | :09:08. | |
down, regretting that there has been no EU referendum, is the Prime | :09:08. | :09:12. | |
Minister 's policy. In America, I'm sure he is toasting what we have | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
done and I'm sure if he was not in America he would be supporting the | :09:15. | :09:20. | |
amendment. So we have a bizarre situation where backbenchers are | :09:20. | :09:23. | |
voting against the government's legislative agenda as it stands | :09:23. | :09:25. | |
because that is in effect what you're going to do. You think he | :09:26. | :09:30. | |
will be delighted? Even for the BBC, and know they are so roll Europe, | :09:31. | :09:36. | |
how you can possibly come to that conclusion... We will be voting for | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
the Queen's Speech. What we're saying... But not as it stands. You | :09:41. | :09:44. | |
want to amend it. We are regretting there is no EU Referendum Bill, and | :09:44. | :09:48. | |
the reason there is not is because the Liberal Democrats are blocking | :09:48. | :09:51. | |
it in the coalition. They are such a minority party, smaller than Nigel's | :09:51. | :09:55. | |
party. Why take any interest? Because they are part in the | :09:55. | :10:01. | |
government? -- part of the government. Malcolm Rifkind say you | :10:01. | :10:04. | |
are undermining the prime Minister's authority. -- says you are | :10:04. | :10:09. | |
undermining. We will see on the vote whether people vote for the | :10:09. | :10:13. | |
amendment or not. But you're going to lose. How could you possibly come | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
to that conclusion? Through the numbers. What is going to happen is | :10:17. | :10:21. | |
that most conservative members of Parliament will vote for it. Do you | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
know that? I hope. By the time we get to Wednesday, I hope that | :10:24. | :10:26. | |
ministers will be allowed to vote for it because it will be strange | :10:26. | :10:31. | |
not to vote for Conservative party policies. Are the Labour Party | :10:31. | :10:35. | |
really going to vote against it and tell everyone in the country | :10:35. | :10:39. | |
that... Well, they have said they are. They are are telling everyone | :10:39. | :10:43. | |
in the country that they are against the EU referendum. If they do that, | :10:43. | :10:45. | |
good news for me and the Conservatives, and good news for | :10:45. | :10:53. | |
Nigel. But it would be political suicide. What are you going to do? | :10:53. | :10:58. | |
What Peter bone has been doing for the last two years. We have been | :10:58. | :11:03. | |
very clear in consistent. We do not want to have a referendum now and we | :11:03. | :11:07. | |
also think that promising one in four Mac years will create great | :11:07. | :11:10. | |
economic uncertainty and a time when people are worried about living | :11:10. | :11:12. | |
standards in the economy. To be clear, they will vote against the | :11:12. | :11:16. | |
amendment? It beggars belief that the Prime Minister, the leader of | :11:16. | :11:22. | |
the government, is also -- is almost encouraging, and relaxed, about is | :11:22. | :11:27. | |
MPs voting against his government. You know that they are going to vote | :11:27. | :11:34. | |
for the amendment. Three Labour MPs. A small handful. We shall see on | :11:34. | :11:38. | |
Wednesday. The vast majority of Labour MPs... Are going to vote | :11:38. | :11:41. | |
against the referendum? They are going to. Why will come back to you. | :11:41. | :11:48. | |
You cannot win. I will tell you after the vote. -- I will come back | :11:48. | :11:53. | |
to you. Every member of Parliament will have two face his constituents | :11:53. | :11:56. | |
and say that he had voted for against the bill and do not think | :11:56. | :11:59. | |
there are many MPs in Parliament who want to vote against an EU | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
Referendum Bill. The point is that David Cameron has promised a | :12:03. | :12:09. | |
referendum in 2017 if the Tories win the election and if they win it | :12:09. | :12:12. | |
outright. Did you not trusted the pro-Minister? I Trust the Prime | :12:13. | :12:15. | |
Minister. Why do we need the amendment? This helps them achieve | :12:15. | :12:22. | |
their policy. We are seeing the government should bring forward the | :12:22. | :12:28. | |
bill. To go down a Private Members' Bill route is well and good, but | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
this should not be done by private members. The problem is that the | :12:32. | :12:35. | |
public do not believe the Prime Minister. What this amendment is | :12:35. | :12:41. | |
seeking to do is to try to bind his hand, may trip that he cannot go | :12:41. | :12:45. | |
back on the decision if he wins the election. What is happening in | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
Westminster really is quite small bear compared to the big European | :12:49. | :12:54. | |
debate. I think the dam is broken. Last week, in the wake of the local | :12:54. | :12:58. | |
election results, we saw three former chancellors of the exchequer | :12:58. | :13:03. | |
and one former Shadow Chancellor saying that the economic costs of | :13:03. | :13:05. | |
being in the US I'd weigh any potential benefit. That is a | :13:05. | :13:10. | |
seachange in the debate. Do you agree with the Prime Minister in his | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
criticism of those senior Tories who have said that the position of the | :13:15. | :13:22. | |
negotiation is hopeless? I have not seen that criticism. We have just | :13:22. | :13:25. | |
heard that the Prime Minister has said they are throwing in the towel | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
too early, people like Michael Portillo, Nigel Lawson and others, | :13:29. | :13:32. | |
who say that the point of renegotiation is not going to get | :13:32. | :13:38. | |
him anywhere. In the towel too early? My view years ago was that we | :13:38. | :13:44. | |
should try to re-negotiate and get it into a free-trade deal. I think | :13:44. | :13:47. | |
that is now bound to fail. So you agree with Nigel Lawson two | :13:47. | :13:54. | |
absolutely. There are two parties now, many people who believe we | :13:54. | :13:59. | |
should come out of Europe. Many people in the Conservative party and | :13:59. | :14:03. | |
many people in UKIP. If we could harness the two parties. What about | :14:03. | :14:08. | |
that? The problem is this. The Portillo's criticism of Cameron was | :14:08. | :14:12. | |
stinging but he doubted the sincerity. If you want to | :14:12. | :14:21. | |
re-negotiate membership of the European Union, you have two invoke | :14:21. | :14:25. | |
Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty. It is the only mechanism that exists to | :14:25. | :14:32. | |
get powers back to this country. As far as working with sitting members | :14:32. | :14:35. | |
of Parliament advocating is leading the EU, and there are Conservatives | :14:35. | :14:41. | |
and Labour people that advocate that position, I am open-minded on a seat | :14:42. | :14:46. | |
by seat basis to talk to people about cooperation. And are you? | :14:46. | :14:50. | |
take support from anyone. It is ridiculous when you have this | :14:50. | :14:55. | |
terrific vote in the last local election for Conservatives, who | :14:55. | :14:59. | |
argue go -- who are Euro-sceptic, and UKIP, Euro-sceptic. If we could | :14:59. | :15:03. | |
harness those forces, we would be moving the Europe debate forward | :15:03. | :15:07. | |
enormously. Is it happening? with David Cameron as leader. We | :15:07. | :15:12. | |
would not contemplate it. Is it happening on an individual basis? | :15:12. | :15:16. | |
no doubt there are Tory is a stations saying that the law was | :15:16. | :15:19. | |
changed two years ago and there is a provision now that one candidate | :15:19. | :15:23. | |
could have the endorsement of two political parties on the ballot | :15:23. | :15:26. | |
paper, and there are associations out there that want this, I | :15:26. | :15:31. | |
believe? Were? I think we're going to have to wait for that. Hang on, | :15:31. | :15:36. | |
you said very clearly. If I have a confidential conversation with | :15:36. | :15:41. | |
people, I'll leave that they are. The pace of the debate is moving | :15:41. | :15:44. | |
very quickly. I think we will have one of those seats very soon. | :15:44. | :15:49. | |
talking one or two, or are we talking ten? We're not talking lots. | :15:49. | :15:57. | |
To be honest, there are only about 20 members of the entire House of | :15:57. | :15:59. | |
Commons who believe that Britain should leave the European Union. The | :15:59. | :16:03. | |
rest till think, somehow, we can re-negotiate. If the number goes up, | :16:03. | :16:09. | |
and would be delighted, maybe they are all hiding. There are a lot of | :16:09. | :16:13. | |
members who believe that but may not have broken cover. That flies | :16:13. | :16:18. | |
against the idea that a vast number of Tory MPs are either secretly or | :16:18. | :16:22. | |
publicly wanting Britain to pull out right now. I never had any | :16:22. | :16:24. | |
discussions with Nigel about running as a joint candidate or anything | :16:24. | :16:32. | |
like that, but I'm no that the vast bulk of conservative members of | :16:32. | :16:35. | |
Parliament think it unlikely that the re-negotiation is going to work. | :16:35. | :16:43. | |
Therefore, they will vote for the EU. You don't trust the Prime | :16:43. | :16:48. | |
Minister and you don't trust him in the promise of renegotiation? Let me | :16:48. | :16:51. | |
say in his Europe speech he was deliberately vague about what he | :16:51. | :16:59. | |
meant by renegotiation. How. Labour Party take about vague. Ed Miliband | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
on Saturday gave a speech, you should read some of the peaches. | :17:03. | :17:07. | |
didn't understand it. Ed Miliband was clear on Saturday that the | :17:07. | :17:11. | |
Labour Party is a pro-European party but a pro-reform party. We want to | :17:11. | :17:16. | |
see reform of the EU. We want that see greater oversight of national | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
parties. We want to abolish the Strasbourg seat of the European | :17:20. | :17:24. | |
Parliament. We want to see a growth commissioner within the European | :17:24. | :17:28. | |
Commission focussing on jobs in growth. Do you support, do you | :17:28. | :17:38. | |
:17:38. | :17:38. | ||
support David Cameron's position then? I said we are in favour of | :17:38. | :17:44. | |
reforming the EU from the inside and that we are against this arbitrary | :17:44. | :17:47. | |
promise of a four-year period in which you have great economic | :17:47. | :17:54. | |
uncertainty and a ref dim at the end. Does Labour rule out promising | :17:54. | :17:58. | |
a referendum? We are not in favour of a referendum now and not in | :17:58. | :18:05. | |
favour of a referendum at an arbitrary point in the future. We | :18:05. | :18:08. | |
would have a referendum if there were a transfer of power from | :18:09. | :18:11. | |
Westminster. That's in law, we know that. That's going to happen any | :18:11. | :18:15. | |
way. Do you think on a scale of one to ten that Labour will prom pis | :18:15. | :18:21. | |
some sort of referendum in the run up to the election? -- promise some | :18:21. | :18:25. | |
sort of referendum in the run up to the election? The Miliband speech is | :18:25. | :18:33. | |
going to make it easier for us to get Labour votes. I'm so pleased I'm | :18:33. | :18:40. | |
a GP and not a politician. We debate things in a different way. Sometimes | :18:40. | :18:49. | |
I think we're going back to a nostalgic past. My sones is we're | :18:49. | :18:53. | |
far better part -- sense is that we are better part of a larger club | :18:53. | :18:59. | |
rather than being isolated as Little Britain. But good luck to you all. | :18:59. | :19:03. | |
Want our democracy back. If this club was democratic there might be | :19:03. | :19:09. | |
arguments for it. But it clearly isn't. We may need to sort out of | :19:09. | :19:13. | |
the irritating issues such as the 40-hour European time directive but | :19:13. | :19:17. | |
the idea that we can go backwards an be Little Britain in the world of | :19:17. | :19:24. | |
globalisation is nonsense. I don't want to end on obsessing about | :19:24. | :19:28. | |
Europe but let's end it there. Thank you to the three of you. Who could | :19:28. | :19:32. | |
forget the rum pus over the Government's reform of the NHS in | :19:32. | :19:36. | |
England. Doctors foaming at the mouth, apparently Romola Garai, the | :19:36. | :19:46. | |
:19:46. | :19:47. | ||
Lib Dems feeling queasy and the GPs are meant to create more competition | :19:47. | :19:53. | |
between different providers of health care. Critics like our guest | :19:53. | :19:57. | |
claim it's privatisation by the back of the surgery door. But is it? | :19:57. | :20:00. | |
Here's Adam to complain what's been happening. | :20:00. | :20:05. | |
John's come for a hearing test but not at a hospital at his local | :20:05. | :20:09. | |
Specsavers. Could the NHS learn a thing or two from places like this? | :20:09. | :20:13. | |
Definitely. It's something the High Street opticians has been doing | :20:13. | :20:17. | |
since 2006. It's free at the point of use. It's free at the point of | :20:17. | :20:22. | |
delivery. You would come along and have your hearing aids fitted here | :20:22. | :20:25. | |
as you would in the hospital. The difference is you come into the | :20:25. | :20:29. | |
local community to have that qualified service performed. | :20:29. | :20:32. | |
Involving organisations that aren't necessarily part of the NHS was a | :20:32. | :20:35. | |
big part of the Government's changes to the Health Service in England. | :20:35. | :20:40. | |
They've given more power to groups of GPs to buy services for their | :20:40. | :20:44. | |
patients. We all know how controversial that's been. The | :20:44. | :20:48. | |
latest row focussed on some paperwork called section 75, the | :20:48. | :20:52. | |
part of the legislation that talks about competition. People like | :20:52. | :20:57. | |
Professor Lindsay Davies from the faculty of public health are worried | :20:57. | :21:00. | |
that the way it's written GPs will have to put everything out to | :21:00. | :21:05. | |
tender. We do think competition has a role to play in services. It does | :21:05. | :21:09. | |
test things. It does make sure that providers are doing the best they | :21:09. | :21:14. | |
can and we're getting best value. But this takes it far too far. | :21:14. | :21:18. | |
Majority in the House of Lords felt the same way. They tried to have the | :21:18. | :21:21. | |
regulations rewritten earlier this year. But the Commons changed them | :21:21. | :21:24. | |
back and now it's the law. Supporters of the Government say | :21:24. | :21:28. | |
there's been a whole lot of scaremongering. I think a lot of | :21:28. | :21:32. | |
people have used it as a reason to talk about privatisation of the NHS. | :21:32. | :21:37. | |
It's not about privatisation. It's about encouraging people to think | :21:37. | :21:42. | |
more about different services, pleurality of provision and whether | :21:42. | :21:47. | |
patients are getting the best value and quality and whether taxpayers | :21:47. | :21:52. | |
money is being used wilesly. patients might start seeing a | :21:52. | :21:56. | |
difference soon. From last Mott changes to the NHS have been rolled | :21:56. | :21:59. | |
out to every area England which means a doctor near you is wondering | :21:59. | :22:05. | |
whether a company like Specsavers could be doing even more. | :22:05. | :22:09. | |
With us is the Conservative MP Chris Scidmore who serves on the Health | :22:09. | :22:13. | |
Select Committee. Thanks for joining us. Does the bill force new clinical | :22:13. | :22:18. | |
commissioning groups to put all services out to tender. No, not at | :22:18. | :22:22. | |
all. One of the issues that we've had is there's a lot of | :22:22. | :22:26. | |
scaremongering. These rules, section 75, is only an extension of what was | :22:26. | :22:31. | |
in place for existing PCTs from 2006 onwards. All we're doing is creating | :22:31. | :22:35. | |
a level playing field and making sure all health providers have this | :22:35. | :22:40. | |
obligation. How you see it? You're wrong. It isn't an extension. It was | :22:40. | :22:45. | |
guidance before. Now it's enshrined in law. I don't think particularly | :22:45. | :22:49. | |
discussing section 75 will interest many people. What does interest is | :22:49. | :22:52. | |
the issue about have we got privatisation through the back door. | :22:52. | :22:58. | |
The last word on that clip tells us we have. The word was "company". If | :22:58. | :23:01. | |
you take privatisation as moving state resources into the full profit | :23:02. | :23:06. | |
or not for profit sector that is privatisation. The debate before has | :23:06. | :23:10. | |
been, as in this clip, if you don't pay for it, therefore it isn't | :23:10. | :23:14. | |
privatisation. It is. It's removing resource that's currently belong in | :23:14. | :23:18. | |
the state sector into the for-profit. The profits that | :23:18. | :23:22. | |
Specsavers make or Harmony make will not go back into the state, they | :23:22. | :23:28. | |
will go into shareholders. That's the definition of privatisation. | :23:28. | :23:33. | |
Ever since Ken Clarke purchase the provider split people have bandied | :23:33. | :23:38. | |
around privatisation. The NHS is still. There it's taxpayer funded | :23:38. | :23:43. | |
and it works in the best interests of patients. The specific question | :23:43. | :23:47. | |
which does that mean that those service that's are put out, that is | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
extended, it is enshrined in law that it will happen more and more | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
which is why people think it's privatisation. We've had a situation | :23:54. | :24:01. | |
where doctors are able to do private practice in terms of a long time. | :24:01. | :24:06. | |
Not alongside their NHS practice. No? Not at all. You can't have a | :24:06. | :24:10. | |
hospital doctor seeing a patient in an NHS hospital and charging that | :24:10. | :24:14. | |
patient. You can now, with the change in the regulations. Can you | :24:14. | :24:18. | |
earn up to 49%. You have never been allowed to do that. GPs have never | :24:18. | :24:22. | |
been allowed to earn more than 10% of our income through private work. | :24:22. | :24:28. | |
. This is an historic issue. Centres opened up services and patients like | :24:29. | :24:33. | |
them. About the quality of services? There are an argument which says | :24:33. | :24:38. | |
does the patient care about how it's provided, who is providing it? They | :24:38. | :24:42. | |
are not paying it when they access the service itself and if it's of | :24:42. | :24:49. | |
high quality, does it mat sneer does mat -- Does it matter?We know | :24:49. | :24:53. | |
that competition and markets increase costs. It reduces choice | :24:53. | :24:57. | |
because you get smaller organisations being swallowed up. | :24:57. | :25:00. | |
You reduce trust because you don't know whether the service you're | :25:00. | :25:03. | |
offered is something you need. In the end, we all lose, the taxpayer | :25:03. | :25:07. | |
loses because in the end I have more cost an the individual will lose. | :25:07. | :25:12. | |
It's not going to be a big bang. It's going to be tae very slow burn. | :25:12. | :25:17. | |
-- it's going to be a very slow burn. You haven't seen the end of | :25:17. | :25:21. | |
the NHS on April 1, 2013, but we've seen the end of the NHS being part | :25:22. | :25:26. | |
of a system that plans and delivers care within a state system. Do you | :25:26. | :25:30. | |
not think that there's time to change? That there's a lot of waste? | :25:30. | :25:33. | |
No, there isn't. We've been bandied about, there's waste in every | :25:34. | :25:38. | |
system. If you look at the biggest health market in the world which is | :25:38. | :25:43. | |
the States, it has the double whammy of the worst health outcomes at the | :25:43. | :25:48. | |
great greatest cost. We have an ageing population. Competition isn't | :25:48. | :25:52. | |
the way of dealing with that. provides innovation. The monopoly at | :25:52. | :25:56. | |
the moment... There is no evidence that if you privatise you increase | :25:56. | :25:59. | |
innovation. There's no evidence. Privatisation won't make people | :25:59. | :26:05. | |
younger. It's not privatisation, the P word that you're bandying around. | :26:05. | :26:09. | |
It's when you take an entire service out into the private sector, like | :26:09. | :26:19. | |
:26:19. | :26:20. | ||
with the railways. How is differing -- delivering hearing aids in | :26:20. | :26:24. | |
Specsavers not the same? It's like glasses being taken out. It's | :26:24. | :26:27. | |
delivered better services. We have remember NHS glasses and look at the | :26:27. | :26:32. | |
quality now. Once you have opened up a playerality of service and the | :26:32. | :26:40. | |
cost of -- plurality of service and the cost. I'm sure Specsavers do an | :26:40. | :26:44. | |
excellent job. The question is what is your definition of privatisation. | :26:44. | :26:49. | |
Mine is removing state resources, ie my taxpayers money and putting it | :26:49. | :26:54. | |
into a for-profit or not for profit organisation why I or the NHS cannot | :26:54. | :27:02. | |
determine how that money is spent. There's no evidence that it doesn't | :27:02. | :27:07. | |
care. Opening it up to new providers which did start under Labour, under | :27:07. | :27:11. | |
Tony Blair. Due disagree with it them snow I say a scourge on both | :27:12. | :27:15. | |
their houses. What has happened is the dismantling of an incredibly | :27:15. | :27:19. | |
effective service, the National Health Service, with a thousand cuts | :27:19. | :27:24. | |
and it has been going on and this current one is, I suspect, the final | :27:24. | :27:28. | |
explosion. Let's talk about access. You don't agree in terms of what is | :27:28. | :27:32. | |
privatedisation and what isn't. Let's look at, we've talked about | :27:32. | :27:36. | |
quality and there isn't conclusive evidence. What about access. Taking | :27:36. | :27:40. | |
the example of Specsavers, things on the High Street make it easier for | :27:40. | :27:45. | |
people to access these sorts of things? Yes of course. There's a -- | :27:45. | :27:49. | |
as a GPs surgery we're on the High Street. You don't necessarily need a | :27:49. | :27:53. | |
private service. Of course we need time prove access. My argument is | :27:53. | :27:59. | |
there is no evidence whatsoever that competition improves the outcome for | :27:59. | :28:04. | |
patients in the end. What do you say to that? What evidence is there? | :28:04. | :28:08. | |
Going round looking at the new GP clinical commissioning grooms and | :28:08. | :28:12. | |
looking at the excitement that -- groups and looking at the excitement | :28:12. | :28:16. | |
that GPs have to be able to innovate and make decisions on behalf of | :28:16. | :28:21. | |
their patients. It's notlet first time -- not the first time. I was | :28:21. | :28:25. | |
chair of an organisation in the late 9-0s in south London. We've had lots | :28:25. | :28:29. | |
of opportunities to hold our own budget. On the whole GPs prefer to | :28:29. | :28:33. | |
be in the consulting room seeing patients. On the Queen's Speech, | :28:33. | :28:36. | |
while we have you here, what about Government's plans to ask doctors to | :28:36. | :28:39. | |
check the immigration status of patients because that's the | :28:39. | :28:44. | |
implication of what's suggested. Right. As I said over the weekend, I | :28:44. | :28:48. | |
don't think doctors should be the borders agency. And they shouldn't | :28:48. | :28:52. | |
be the new tax collectors in receiving money from patients who we | :28:52. | :28:56. | |
deem or have been deemed as not being entight tolled free health | :28:56. | :29:00. | |
care. This is something I've campaigned in Parliament on. I'm | :29:00. | :29:06. | |
happy about this. It's a small A money, but lots of people... Should | :29:06. | :29:10. | |
GPs make those decisions or ask those questions? I think, we either | :29:10. | :29:14. | |
have a situation where we have some sort of unit in the department which | :29:14. | :29:18. | |
actually might pool resources. There is an issue of duplication. The | :29:18. | :29:21. | |
Government will review and look at the options, which is the right | :29:21. | :29:25. | |
thing to do. It may well, we don't know what the scants of the problem | :29:25. | :29:30. | |
is, we -- extent of the problem is. We have looked at estimates from one | :29:30. | :29:35. | |
million to one billion. We don't know. I worry we're trading the same | :29:35. | :29:39. | |
anecdotes and when you look at the problem it's a very small proportion | :29:39. | :29:45. | |
of NHS spend. Probably less than 1%. Thigh for coming in. -- thank you | :29:45. | :29:51. | |
for coming in. Now let's have a quick look at the week ahead. Later | :29:51. | :29:56. | |
today, President Obama welcomes David Cameron to the White House, | :29:56. | :30:00. | |
expect Europe and Syria to be on the agenda. MPs will debate the Queen's | :30:00. | :30:03. | |
Speech this week. And as we've been hearing, expect a vote on Wednesday | :30:03. | :30:08. | |
on the lack of an EU referendum. It's the Police Federation annual | :30:08. | :30:11. | |
conference. That will probably mean Theresa May will turn up and get | :30:11. | :30:16. | |
heckled. On Thursday, it's the ballot of Private Members' Bills, | :30:16. | :30:19. | |
well joining us from College Green now is Andrew Pierce from the Daily | :30:19. | :30:23. | |
Mail and Kate Devlin from the Herald. Welcome to both of you. | :30:23. | :30:26. | |
Andrew Pierce, David Cameron is hitting back at those senior Tory | :30:26. | :30:32. | |
MPs who say renegotiation is hopeless. You can't make it up with | :30:32. | :30:34. | |
the Conservative Party. David Cameron was the leader who thought | :30:34. | :30:39. | |
he would bury the issue of Europe as a divisive factor in his party. It | :30:39. | :30:44. | |
looks like it may bury him. I've been talking to MPs who you wouldn't | :30:44. | :30:49. | |
expect to necessarily be supporting this motion this week, regretting | :30:49. | :30:55. | |
the absence of any Europe in the Queen's Speech. On the left of the | :30:55. | :30:59. | |
party, they say it's simple we have to pull out of Europe unless there's | :30:59. | :31:02. | |
a massive renegotiation. It's up and running now. I don't think Cameron | :31:02. | :31:06. | |
can put the Jeanie back in the can put the Jeanie back in the | :31:06. | :31:10. | |
bottle. Do you agree? How is it going to look on Wednesday when | :31:10. | :31:18. | |
you've got 100 or so or more, if Andrew Pierce is right, voting | :31:18. | :31:20. | |
Andrew Pierce is right, voting Andrew Pierce is right, voting | :31:20. | :31:30. | |
:31:30. | :31:35. | ||
will look bad. Downing Street have had a number of these rebellions in | :31:35. | :31:38. | |
recent years and there are signs that they are starting to get that | :31:38. | :31:44. | |
and managing them. -- they are starting to get better at managing | :31:44. | :31:50. | |
them. Saying that they are free to vote against it frees David | :31:50. | :31:54. | |
Cameron. It means he will not have to sack people after the vote as he | :31:54. | :31:59. | |
had in the past. That said, those who will vote for the amendment are | :31:59. | :32:04. | |
surprised that Downing Street is surprised that the Euro-sceptics are | :32:04. | :32:10. | |
still pushing this issue. There has to be something with the take a step | :32:10. | :32:13. | |
back and try to decide how they are going to deal with these things over | :32:13. | :32:19. | |
the long-term. How do you deal with it? The thing is, it is the prime | :32:19. | :32:23. | |
Minister's fault. Before the Queen's Speech she talked about putting | :32:23. | :32:28. | |
something in the speech about Europe and then he backed off. He has been | :32:28. | :32:34. | |
sending out conflicting signals. And he has to get his backbenchers a -- | :32:34. | :32:38. | |
in opportunity to sound off. They have a problem with UKIP and it is | :32:38. | :32:41. | |
not just about UKIP. Tories think the relationship with the European | :32:41. | :32:45. | |
Union is not fit for purpose and they want out unless they can be a | :32:45. | :32:49. | |
major re-negotiation. There is one advantage for Cameron in this latest | :32:49. | :32:54. | |
bout of infighting. At least the Tories can say that they are the | :32:54. | :32:57. | |
only party that will give the referendum, unlike Labour and the | :32:57. | :33:01. | |
Lib Dems who are implacably opposed. What about the public? Is | :33:01. | :33:08. | |
there this fear of obsessing about Europe at Westminster? Yes. The Tory | :33:08. | :33:11. | |
leadership says that they are trying to appeal to lots of different | :33:12. | :33:17. | |
people and that they have to try to remember that. So while they are | :33:17. | :33:20. | |
appeasing backbenchers, they had to appeal to normal people up and down | :33:20. | :33:25. | |
the country, some of whom are feeling the same way as the Tory | :33:25. | :33:30. | |
rebels, that they want some kind of in-out referendum. But a significant | :33:30. | :33:35. | |
proportion of them are baffled that the Tory party appears to be turning | :33:35. | :33:39. | |
itself -- tearing itself apart again over this. But they are very good at | :33:39. | :33:48. | |
it! The art experts. We have just had Nigel Farage on the programme, | :33:48. | :33:54. | |
saying that there are discussions going on between number of Tory | :33:54. | :33:56. | |
associations and UKIP in terms of a shared platform. Are you hearing | :33:56. | :34:02. | |
that? Absolutely. I'll was thought that it would happen if they did | :34:02. | :34:04. | |
well in the County Council elections. Almost certainly in my | :34:04. | :34:07. | |
view they will win the European elections next year. I'm no many | :34:07. | :34:14. | |
Tories who are going to vote for UKIP. There will be situations where | :34:14. | :34:20. | |
Nigel Farage Wilmot put out a candidate. David Cameron is quick to | :34:20. | :34:23. | |
have to get serious about this and talk to a man he has dismissed as a | :34:24. | :34:27. | |
nutcase. Thank you both. Enjoy the rest of the week. | :34:27. | :34:30. | |
Joining us for the rest of the programme are three very normal | :34:30. | :34:33. | |
people, former deputy leader, Mark Crick Beckett -- former Labour | :34:33. | :34:43. | |
:34:43. | :34:44. | ||
deputy leader, Margaret Beckett, Lord Forsyth and Charles Kennedy. | :34:44. | :34:48. | |
Let's move on. Two members of the Cabinet has said that they will vote | :34:48. | :34:54. | |
to quit the European referendum -- European Union if there was a | :34:54. | :34:57. | |
referendum tomorrow. Would you add your voice to that? I would want us | :34:57. | :35:02. | |
out if there was a vote, not because we are leaving the EU, but because | :35:02. | :35:05. | |
they are leaving us. They are going down the path of further economic | :35:05. | :35:09. | |
integration and that will not make Europe competitive. You can see the | :35:09. | :35:13. | |
misery being caused in countries like Spain where youth unemployment | :35:13. | :35:17. | |
is that 60%. The Archbishop warns today of civil unrest. We cannot go | :35:17. | :35:22. | |
down that track. We need to see our future in the global economy and be | :35:22. | :35:25. | |
free to determine our borders and laws. Do you think that Nigel Lawson | :35:25. | :35:31. | |
was right to say that re-negotiation is pointless? Yes.And David Cameron | :35:31. | :35:34. | |
says you are throwing in the towel too early and undermining his | :35:34. | :35:38. | |
position. I think there is confusion here. If we say that we're Article | :35:38. | :35:43. | |
50 of the treaty to leave the union and renegotiate our position, I | :35:43. | :35:49. | |
think that is credible. The idea that you could get the whole of the | :35:49. | :35:53. | |
rest of Europe to do a special deal for written, many of them would have | :35:53. | :35:56. | |
to have their own referendums to achieve it. They would not want | :35:56. | :36:01. | |
their own particular changes to the club. I think it is wrong. To use an | :36:01. | :36:04. | |
analogy, I think David Cameron thinks he can persuade the golf club | :36:04. | :36:08. | |
to play tennis. His negotiating position is impossible, because he | :36:08. | :36:11. | |
is saying that if he does not succeed, they will continue to play | :36:11. | :36:18. | |
golf. He has not said what he would do if he did not succeed. He said | :36:18. | :36:21. | |
that in the event of not being successful, he would still campaign | :36:22. | :36:28. | |
to remain in the EU. Do you Trust him to deliver on his promise of the | :36:28. | :36:36. | |
referendum in 2017? -- to deliver a referendum in 2017. The Trust him to | :36:36. | :36:43. | |
deliver? I do. -- do you Trust him to deliver. Why does the need to be | :36:43. | :36:49. | |
an amendment by Tory backbenchers to get it enshrined in law? That is a | :36:49. | :36:58. | |
separate question. What is happening here is that Tory backbenchers are | :36:59. | :37:02. | |
frustrated that the British people are not being given the opportunity | :37:02. | :37:07. | |
to have a vote on whether not we should remain in the EU. But they | :37:07. | :37:11. | |
are in 2017. That is a long way away. That is a long period of | :37:11. | :37:14. | |
uncertainty, and also it depends upon the Conservatives winning the | :37:14. | :37:19. | |
next election. We need to get back some of those people that are voting | :37:19. | :37:24. | |
for UKIP, you're going to win the next election. So you are completely | :37:24. | :37:29. | |
persuaded that there should now be a referendum, or at least a mandate | :37:29. | :37:32. | |
referendum which would guide any future negotiations for David | :37:32. | :37:36. | |
Cameron? I think there should be an in-out referendum under think the | :37:36. | :37:39. | |
Prime Minister should be getting himself around Europe now, trying to | :37:39. | :37:45. | |
get a deal for us if we leave. lost control of the party over | :37:45. | :37:49. | |
Europe? Not at all.It sounds like it listening to you. He's got it | :37:49. | :37:54. | |
wrong in terms of promising a referendum in 2017 and the | :37:54. | :37:58. | |
backbenchers are right to try to table an amendment because they do | :37:58. | :38:01. | |
not Trust them to deliver a referendum in 2017. He seems to have | :38:01. | :38:07. | |
lost control. I am one of these old-fashioned people who think the | :38:07. | :38:09. | |
executive should take note of what Parliament thinks and not the other | :38:09. | :38:17. | |
way around. Is it difficult at this point, should Ed Miliband be ruling | :38:17. | :38:22. | |
out any referendum on Europe at this point? At this point, yes. I think | :38:22. | :38:30. | |
issued and he is, because there are huge problems in our economy and | :38:30. | :38:34. | |
leaving Europe is not going to help to solve those problems. What the | :38:34. | :38:37. | |
government should be trying to deal with is getting growth and doing | :38:37. | :38:42. | |
something to bring in more jobs. The minute we start saying that we are | :38:42. | :38:45. | |
going to leave the European Union, there are literally millions of jobs | :38:45. | :38:49. | |
in this country at stake. When I was Secretary of State for trade and | :38:49. | :38:52. | |
industry, the Japanese motor industry, in one voice, was | :38:52. | :38:58. | |
absolutely clear. They were clear that if we leave Europe, they will | :38:58. | :39:02. | |
leave the UK. But by not stating whether there should be a | :39:02. | :39:05. | |
referendum, why not give people the chance to say yes or no? That would | :39:05. | :39:09. | |
create certainty? We are the only party you are a gay people the | :39:09. | :39:15. | |
chance to say yes or no. For my part... You campaigned for people to | :39:15. | :39:18. | |
leave. I did. Let me draw your attention to the fact that there | :39:18. | :39:23. | |
were some differences. For example, we still had strong ties with the | :39:23. | :39:26. | |
Commonwealth. We still have a different relationship with Asda. | :39:26. | :39:36. | |
:39:36. | :39:37. | ||
All that has gone. -- EFTA. So Labour should not promise a | :39:37. | :39:41. | |
referendum now or in the run-up to the election? We will have to take a | :39:41. | :39:46. | |
decision then. My heart sinks at the thought that we should commit | :39:46. | :39:51. | |
ourselves as an incoming government to the first priority of engaging in | :39:51. | :39:54. | |
a wholesale diversion of a referendum on Europe. We should be | :39:54. | :39:58. | |
doing concentrating on turning the economy around. What do you say to | :39:58. | :40:04. | |
that? I think marketers write about the importance of the economy and | :40:04. | :40:07. | |
jobs but the idea that we will not have access to European markets and | :40:07. | :40:12. | |
we could not have a free train -- free trade agreement, is just | :40:13. | :40:18. | |
wrong. Did not that.Our future lies with South America and China, the | :40:18. | :40:21. | |
growth parts of the world that we need to be able to sell our goods | :40:21. | :40:27. | |
and services to. Our -- we are being completely hamstrung by regulation | :40:27. | :40:37. | |
:40:37. | :40:46. | ||
and controversy. Our wiki Mac no. are we? No. The British civil | :40:46. | :40:50. | |
service has a panoply of things that they want to add on to this bill, | :40:50. | :40:54. | |
and the addict on the back of the European initiative, and then they | :40:54. | :40:57. | |
blame Brussels. Successive governments have been guilty of | :40:57. | :41:01. | |
this. As far as we are hamstrung, a lot of this is home-grown and has | :41:01. | :41:07. | |
not just come from the continent. But you fought election -- you | :41:07. | :41:12. | |
fought in the lection, and the Clegg attacks Gordon Brown for not giving | :41:12. | :41:17. | |
people the referendum. -- fought and collection. The Liberals are holding | :41:17. | :41:21. | |
the Prime Minister hostage to prevent him from delivering what you | :41:21. | :41:26. | |
stood for delivering an in-out referendum. If he is a hostage, it | :41:26. | :41:33. | |
is at his own making. But you would not support this. We have always | :41:33. | :41:37. | |
said, have a referendum if you have a treaty change, or further proposed | :41:37. | :41:41. | |
change. And that is agreed. But the Liberal Democrats are, according to | :41:42. | :41:44. | |
the Conservative leadership, holding the government to account, | :41:45. | :41:52. | |
preventing them mentioning it in the Queen's Speech. Oh dear. 60 Liberal | :41:52. | :41:57. | |
Democrats in the House of Commons holding the conservative | :41:57. | :42:00. | |
establishment hostage? The Prime Minister in the Tower of London? | :42:00. | :42:03. | |
What nonsense. The reason Cameron is in trouble is his first big | :42:03. | :42:06. | |
strategic mistake during the Tory readership campaign, to pacify the | :42:06. | :42:12. | |
David Davis Euro-sceptics, which he did not need to do, as it turned | :42:12. | :42:20. | |
out, he gave this guarantee which has left the Tories isolated. In the | :42:20. | :42:22. | |
European Parliament, they are isolated, along with right-wing | :42:22. | :42:29. | |
individuals, and of mainstream thinking. What has changed is that | :42:29. | :42:34. | |
they were handing out leaflets asking people to demand an in-out | :42:34. | :42:39. | |
referendum, during your petitioning, what has changed since then and | :42:39. | :42:42. | |
now? What has changed is that we have a coalition government and | :42:42. | :42:45. | |
secondly we have three years of an agreed position that government, | :42:45. | :42:51. | |
these are the Europe. In the government's position, the coalition | :42:51. | :42:58. | |
government's position is not to favour an in-out referendum now. | :42:59. | :43:02. | |
That is what David Cameron thinks and says and that is what Nick Clegg | :43:02. | :43:05. | |
thinks and says. You were saying that they are not telling the | :43:05. | :43:09. | |
truth? They speak with one voice as does William Hague. You cannot deny | :43:09. | :43:14. | |
that. Is Michael Portillo right when he implies that David Cameron is | :43:14. | :43:18. | |
faking Euroscepticism? I think he is Euro-sceptic. He is trying to keep | :43:18. | :43:22. | |
the core mission together and he has been put in a position by the | :43:22. | :43:25. | |
Liberals to renege on their promise at the general election and proved | :43:25. | :43:29. | |
between coalition country. Why are they not promising a referendum | :43:29. | :43:34. | |
now? We're not reneging on anything, nothing whatsoever. We entered into | :43:34. | :43:37. | |
a coalition government and I was a sceptic on that issue. But we | :43:37. | :43:41. | |
entered into it. We published an agreement and the agreement on | :43:41. | :43:44. | |
Europe was the position that the government are following. Nobody has | :43:44. | :43:49. | |
reneged on anybody. The only people reneging on the 100 or so, and we | :43:50. | :43:53. | |
will see how many tomorrow night, the Tory backbenchers who will not | :43:53. | :43:58. | |
tour the line of their leader. People like you, are pouring | :43:58. | :44:02. | |
paraffin on the Tory fire. The Tory Euro-sceptics do not trust David | :44:02. | :44:05. | |
Cameron to deliver. That is what it comes down to and that is what they | :44:05. | :44:09. | |
should be voting on tomorrow. That is what they are saying, we're not | :44:09. | :44:13. | |
sure we like this guy and we do not trust him. Do you trust David | :44:13. | :44:20. | |
Cameron? Of course they do. -- of course I do but I think he has to | :44:20. | :44:22. | |
choose between keeping Nick Clegg happy and giving the country what it | :44:22. | :44:27. | |
once. All political parties are campaigning on this. The UKIP result | :44:27. | :44:36. | |
shows... There was a quote from David Cameron a few hours ago. | :44:36. | :44:41. | |
Accusing his colleagues of throwing in the towel too early. | :44:41. | :44:44. | |
annoyances with his own party. about the case for re-negotiation? | :44:44. | :44:48. | |
Would've thought the Lib Dems would be part of a government that is | :44:48. | :44:52. | |
going to try to repatriate these powers. You happy about that? | :44:52. | :44:56. | |
not have any difficulties with that. We have argued for years that you | :44:56. | :44:58. | |
want a Europe that is more decentralised and that is both that | :44:58. | :45:07. | |
the rubble, not in the European use of the word, but in the North | :45:07. | :45:11. | |
American sense. -- that is more federal. More power devolved from | :45:11. | :45:16. | |
the centre to the regions and nations of Europe. Tories should not | :45:16. | :45:22. | |
have a problem with that. When the Prime Minister made his speech, Nick | :45:22. | :45:27. | |
Clegg offered to translate it from double Dutch into English. And he | :45:27. | :45:30. | |
made it absolutely clear that he was not supporting the prime Minster's | :45:30. | :45:37. | |
line of re-negotiation. They all wanted the top job and they got it | :45:37. | :45:41. | |
but it's not always a bed of roses. # knew you were trouble when you | :45:41. | :45:45. | |
walked in # on you now | :45:45. | :45:50. | |
# took me to places I'd never been # you put me down | :45:50. | :45:55. | |
# knew you were trouble when you walked in | :45:55. | :46:00. | |
# on you now # took me to places I'd never been | :46:00. | :46:10. | |
:46:10. | :46:21. | ||
# I'm lying on the cold hard ground Yes, gazing through the prism of the | :46:21. | :46:24. | |
weekend press you'd be forgiven for thinking they're all on shaky | :46:24. | :46:28. | |
ground. Let's start with Ed Miliband, Margaret Beckett. You | :46:28. | :46:32. | |
backed him when he was running for the Labour leadership, are you | :46:32. | :46:37. | |
pleased with how he and it's turned out. Yes, very.Are people not? Why | :46:37. | :46:41. | |
are the polls saying he is holding back the party? He's had a terrible | :46:41. | :46:46. | |
press from day one. There might be a reason for that? Yes, one reason | :46:46. | :46:50. | |
that nobody ever talks about, the greatest sin in politics is to do | :46:50. | :46:55. | |
what none of the political commentators expected. No | :46:56. | :46:59. | |
commentators expected him to win and he did. They were insulted. With the | :46:59. | :47:03. | |
help of the reasons, that was the only reason. It was a technical win, | :47:03. | :47:08. | |
if you like. They can say what they like, but none of them expected it. | :47:08. | :47:12. | |
They were taken by surprise and they didn't like it because they assumed | :47:12. | :47:16. | |
that David was going to win. It was a foregone conclusion. Hasn't he won | :47:17. | :47:21. | |
them over? He is winning them over. He? Yes, he's already improving in | :47:21. | :47:26. | |
the polls. At a very, very slow rate. I mean the party... Let's not | :47:26. | :47:30. | |
exaggerate it. In terms of personal approval ratings, he's gone up | :47:30. | :47:34. | |
according to the polls one point since he game leader. Bearing in | :47:34. | :47:37. | |
mind what we've been discussing over Europe and the economy, one might | :47:37. | :47:42. | |
have thought he'd have improved his ratings considerably more. I think | :47:42. | :47:45. | |
considering the scale of the defeat that we had at the last election the | :47:45. | :47:49. | |
fact that he's held the party together. The party is, I think I'm | :47:49. | :47:52. | |
right in saying, certainly as united, more united certainly than | :47:52. | :47:59. | |
the Tory party, possibly than the liberals. Ed himself is doing | :47:59. | :48:09. | |
:48:09. | :48:09. | ||
extremely well. In my opinion, and bear in mind I've watched more Prime | :48:09. | :48:13. | |
Ministers Question Times from the chamber than any of the rest of you, | :48:13. | :48:17. | |
I think Ed is consistently winning where the leader of the Opposition | :48:17. | :48:21. | |
is never supposed to win. The cards are always stacked against you. | :48:21. | :48:25. | |
that important in terms of public perception? It's important in the | :48:25. | :48:28. | |
House and in the end, it gradually feeds through into public | :48:28. | :48:32. | |
perception. He had a mountain to climb. He's doing extremely well. He | :48:32. | :48:37. | |
is taking nothing for granted. Some of the party grandees don't agree, | :48:37. | :48:42. | |
Peter Mandelson is one of them, not a fan of one-nation Labour. We've | :48:42. | :48:47. | |
heard from Lord Sainsbury, "Mr Average". He said that about all | :48:47. | :48:51. | |
three of them, all three of the party leaders. My impression is, I | :48:51. | :48:55. | |
was surprised because I like David Sainsbury he was a good Science | :48:55. | :48:59. | |
Minister, as I would judge. I have a lot of respect for him. I thought, | :48:59. | :49:03. | |
why on earth has he suddenly decided to make this statement. From what I | :49:03. | :49:07. | |
can make out, he has a book coming out and he gave an interview about | :49:07. | :49:10. | |
the book. Was the journalist interested in the book? Possibly not | :49:10. | :49:13. | |
as much as he was in getting him to say something about the leadership. | :49:13. | :49:19. | |
It's not even a secret at all. David Sainsbury supported David Miliband | :49:19. | :49:24. | |
and was disappointed he didn't get the leadership. Charles Kennedy, we | :49:24. | :49:28. | |
heard Michael Gove perhaps mischieviously accusing Nick | :49:28. | :49:34. | |
Clegg... Characteristically.Your word, showing a bit of leg over the | :49:34. | :49:38. | |
child care policy. It is a bit strange, is it not, for Nick Clegg | :49:38. | :49:43. | |
to have come out at the 11th hour with his disagreement over what is a | :49:43. | :49:48. | |
crucial part of child care reforms? I wasn't party to the maccination | :49:48. | :49:52. | |
that's led up to this. They've been discussing this for months. | :49:52. | :49:56. | |
component of a Queen's Speech I haven't been in Government, both | :49:56. | :50:00. | |
colleagues here have. These processes take months and months | :50:00. | :50:04. | |
before they actually reach the printed page that's put in front of | :50:04. | :50:08. | |
the sovereign. So it is surprising as to what went wrong at the | :50:08. | :50:12. | |
crossroads. It is, I don't know the answer to that. I can only assume, | :50:12. | :50:16. | |
this is an interPrio takes that the -- interpretation, that the detail | :50:17. | :50:20. | |
as oppose to theed principle, of what was agreed, when that was | :50:20. | :50:23. | |
fleshed out by the Conservative Cabinet minister responsible, that's | :50:23. | :50:28. | |
when the alarm bells started ringing in camp Clegg. That's my assumption. | :50:28. | :50:32. | |
Do you reject the assertion that there is challenge going on | :50:32. | :50:37. | |
behind-the-scenes in terms of his leadership? Or any talk or rumour | :50:37. | :50:41. | |
about it? I'm not a good source because given that I trusted people | :50:41. | :50:45. | |
myself a number of years ago in these matters, that was a great | :50:45. | :50:50. | |
mistake on my part. But from the outside looking in, I would think | :50:50. | :50:55. | |
there is no truth in this. I think it is Michael trying to kick up a | :50:55. | :51:03. | |
bit of sand to deflect attention from the on ongoing embroils of the | :51:03. | :51:07. | |
Conservative leadership. I think it is a bit of mischief. If there were | :51:07. | :51:11. | |
any truth in it, and I don't think that there is, my advice to the | :51:11. | :51:16. | |
chaps would be send for the men in white coats. I see. The speculation | :51:16. | :51:21. | |
is that you do know is that Vince Cable would be the man to replace | :51:21. | :51:24. | |
Nick Clegg. And even he himself has said if the opportunity arose it | :51:24. | :51:28. | |
would be something that he'd consider. Do you think there is some | :51:28. | :51:32. | |
truth to Vince Cable perhaps beginning to put feelers out for a | :51:32. | :51:38. | |
replacement? I don't think so, no. I feel a bit bruised because my name's | :51:38. | :51:44. | |
not been mentioned at all. We can reveal, I'm hearing in my ear. | :51:44. | :51:50. | |
get a cheap free hit for tomorrow, can I disspell the notion that I | :51:50. | :51:54. | |
have in any way been approached. I am above the battle. Would you like | :51:54. | :51:59. | |
Vince to replace anybodying? No, I don't want nb to replace anybodying. | :51:59. | :52:07. | |
We have a -- Nick Clegg, we have a liberal as the Deputy Prime | :52:08. | :52:17. | |
Minister. Unless we need our heads examined don't rock the boat. | :52:17. | :52:20. | |
firmly in the House of Lords. king across the water. David Cameron | :52:21. | :52:28. | |
wasn't in the picture, who would be your ideal person? I'm not going to | :52:29. | :52:33. | |
answer that question. Why not?It would get me in great trouble. I | :52:33. | :52:36. | |
will say that the reason Ed Miliband is in difficulty is because he has | :52:36. | :52:39. | |
not acknowledged the economic shambles that Labour were | :52:39. | :52:45. | |
responsible for. Have to leave it there. We hear Chris Huhne, which we | :52:45. | :52:48. | |
said earlier, and his wife Vicky Pryce have been released from prison | :52:48. | :52:53. | |
this morning half their convictions this year for perverting the course | :52:53. | :52:58. | |
of justice. Here are the pictures of the vans taking them home. Chris, | :52:58. | :53:06. | |
where are you and where is Mr Huhne? Can you hear me? Can he hear me? | :53:06. | :53:10. | |
There's Chris Huhne. We can see pictures here. Chris Huhne might be | :53:10. | :53:19. | |
about to make a statement. Let's see if he's going to say something. | :53:19. | :53:26. | |
calm down everybody, all right. OK? I've got a simple thing to say and | :53:26. | :53:32. | |
I'm not going to saying in more after that. So please you know, calm | :53:32. | :53:37. | |
down everybody. All right? First of all, thank you very much for coming. | :53:37. | :53:43. | |
I would just like to say once again, as you know from the night that I | :53:43. | :53:47. | |
was sentenced, I said that I was very sorry for what I'd done. It has | :53:47. | :53:53. | |
been a humbling and sobering experience. I'd like to thank all of | :53:53. | :53:57. | |
those who have written to me, hundreds of letters that I've had | :53:57. | :54:03. | |
and all my family and friends who've stood by me. And I would also just | :54:03. | :54:07. | |
remind you that I've served only part of my sentence and therefore | :54:07. | :54:15. | |
it's not appropriate to say more. I'd now like to get on, get back to | :54:15. | :54:19. | |
home and continue with my life. Thank you for coming. | :54:19. | :54:23. | |
REPORTER: Has prison been good for you? | :54:23. | :54:29. | |
We can see pictures of Chris Huhne and his partner trying to move away | :54:29. | :54:33. | |
from the cameras, who have been following him to get a statement as | :54:33. | :54:36. | |
he has arrived back having been released from prison. He said there | :54:36. | :54:40. | |
himself that there are strict conditions, because he didn't serve | :54:40. | :54:45. | |
the full term. As a result of that, he can't say any more at the moment. | :54:45. | :54:49. | |
I think he'll be lucky if he thinks the press will leave him alone at | :54:49. | :54:53. | |
any time and the same for Vicky Pryce. She was also released this | :54:53. | :54:57. | |
morning. She said she would return to work as an conmiffed. Charles | :54:57. | :55:01. | |
Kennedy, it's going to be difficult for Chris Huhne to return to | :55:01. | :55:05. | |
anything in public life. Is that ruled out all together? | :55:05. | :55:09. | |
necessarily. Chris is a very robust, both very robust characters and very | :55:09. | :55:15. | |
good people as a matter of fact. Strong social conscience about them | :55:15. | :55:18. | |
and very, very intelligent and successful in their respective | :55:18. | :55:23. | |
fields. I do slightly question and this is not a partisan point at all, | :55:23. | :55:27. | |
but the price that they've paid, which is a heavy one for what was | :55:27. | :55:31. | |
the offence... But they did plead guilty to perverting the course of | :55:31. | :55:36. | |
justice. I'm not denying that, if you allow me to complete the | :55:36. | :55:40. | |
thought. Yes, they have to pay a heavy price and they have done | :55:40. | :55:45. | |
so.ive wonder from the point of view of society would their talents not | :55:45. | :55:49. | |
have been better placed instead of being detained, as it were for a | :55:49. | :55:54. | |
couple of months, actually be sent into under privileged schools to do | :55:54. | :55:58. | |
some practical good over that period as well. I'm not saying they should | :55:58. | :56:01. | |
get special treatment, but I think it raises a serious question of a | :56:02. | :56:05. | |
penal policy. Do you say to that? Has it just been a waste of money in | :56:05. | :56:10. | |
that sense and it could have been their time and punishment,if you | :56:10. | :56:13. | |
like, could have been done in a more effective way? It's an interesting | :56:13. | :56:20. | |
thought. My impression has been from fairly early on in this case, the | :56:20. | :56:25. | |
courts themselves and the legal profession take this whole issue and | :56:25. | :56:29. | |
this case incredibly seriously, far more seriously probably I'm afraid | :56:29. | :56:36. | |
than any of us do. For them, the gravity of what was done is probably | :56:36. | :56:39. | |
much greater than most people among the public would think and so I | :56:40. | :56:44. | |
think it was, it's not really any point in considering whether it | :56:44. | :56:47. | |
might have been better handled a different way because it never would | :56:47. | :56:51. | |
have been. Do you think it was the best way to treat them, bearing in | :56:51. | :56:55. | |
mind what they did and the fact that Chris Huhne pleaded guiltedy to | :56:55. | :57:01. | |
perverting the course of justice and it is a serious offence? There was a | :57:01. | :57:05. | |
Scottish judge used to say perverting the course of justice is | :57:05. | :57:08. | |
worse than murder because it's murdering justice, which is a rather | :57:08. | :57:12. | |
extreme position. I feel very sorry for both of them actually. I don't | :57:12. | :57:15. | |
know Chris particularly well. I do know Vicky Pryce. They've paid a | :57:15. | :57:20. | |
very high price indeed for something that was clearly wrong and I just | :57:20. | :57:26. | |
wish them the best. And they clearly have to build their careers. I think | :57:26. | :57:30. | |
what happened to their familiuals horrendous. People may say they | :57:30. | :57:35. | |
brought it upon themselves. They will. But anyone with the slightest | :57:35. | :57:40. | |
amount of human empathy and read the e-mails and watched that and not | :57:40. | :57:45. | |
felt sympathy. Today he's behaved with great dignity as she has. I | :57:45. | :57:50. | |
think the press should leave them alone. I felt particularly sorry for | :57:50. | :57:54. | |
Vicky Pryce, if you've ever seen a notice about speeding, it says who | :57:54. | :57:58. | |
was driving the car? You don't get another form unless you have said | :57:58. | :58:01. | |
someone else is driving the car. He had already done something which put | :58:01. | :58:06. | |
his whole career in jeopardy by the time she was asked to put her | :58:06. | :58:09. | |
signature on the form. Do you think the Liberal Democrats will hope that | :58:09. | :58:15. | |
Chris Huhne will quietly disappear into obscurity? No, I don't see an | :58:15. | :58:20. | |
elecheed future for him. No, just generally that he would just... | :58:20. | :58:23. | |
think Chris is the kind of individual, whatever he does next, | :58:23. | :58:27. | |
he'll produce ideas. They will feed their way into our policy making | :58:27. | :58:31. | |
process, I'm quite sure. Just very quickly, we had a question about | :58:31. | :58:36. | |
which MP would win a fight according to a poll. Any ideas? David Cameron, | :58:36. | :58:41. | |
Theresa May, Ed Balls, Jacob Rees-Mogg. I know it was bizarre. It | :58:41. | :58:45. | |
was Ed Balls. This kind of fight, not a political fight. I can see the | :58:45. | :58:48. | |
confusion there. That's all for today. Thanks to our guests. We will | :58:48. | :58:51. | |
have to tell them about the quiz. The one o'clock news is starting on | :58:51. | :58:54. |