Browse content similar to 16/05/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Daily Politics. Make no mistake, a lot of Tory backbenchers are not | :00:45. | :00:49. | |
best pleased with Call Me Dave. Last night, half of them gave him a | :00:49. | :00:53. | |
ticking off over his failure to include an EU referendum bill in the | :00:53. | :00:56. | |
Queen's Speech. We will talk to former chancellor Nigel Lawson, who | :00:56. | :00:58. | |
thinks yesterday's vote was a waste of time. | :00:58. | :01:02. | |
Could the whole issue rear its head again in a private member's bill? We | :01:02. | :01:07. | |
will talk to the winner of this morning's ballot. Red Ed may be | :01:07. | :01:17. | |
:01:17. | :01:17. | ||
ahead, but not by much, according to the polls. | :01:18. | :01:20. | |
Does he have what it takes to win an election? And from the difficulties | :01:20. | :01:23. | |
of one man to the troubles of all. We will be asking Diane Abbott why | :01:23. | :01:31. | |
she thinks men could be in crisis. Diane Abbott, who is she? All that | :01:31. | :01:35. | |
in the next hour. With us for the duration, former Labour pollster | :01:35. | :01:40. | |
Debra Mattinson, who had to deal with Gordon Brown. She now runs an | :01:40. | :01:45. | |
organisation called Britainthinks. That is a great relief to know. I | :01:45. | :01:50. | |
myself would like a second opinion. First, let's talk about tax and | :01:50. | :01:54. | |
Google, because the internet giant was in front of the Public Accounts | :01:54. | :01:58. | |
Committee again this morning. The labour and Pete who chairs it, | :01:58. | :02:04. | |
Margaret Hodge, said a payslip from a whistleblower showed that he was | :02:04. | :02:11. | |
given commission on deals made in the UK. The Google executive, Matt | :02:11. | :02:17. | |
Britain, claimed that 99% of sales were clinched in Dublin and that | :02:17. | :02:20. | |
that was where they should be taxed. He was a flavour of the | :02:20. | :02:25. | |
exchange. I would ask you to reconsider what you are telling us, | :02:25. | :02:31. | |
because it does not make sense to your own staff. It does not make | :02:31. | :02:34. | |
sense to the committee. It does not make sense to any of your clients, | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
and it does not make sense that the only people it seems to make them is | :02:37. | :02:45. | |
to is Google. You are the last man standing on this. I don't recognise | :02:45. | :02:47. | |
the characterisation you paint. You have written number of points and I | :02:47. | :02:51. | |
would like to deal with them in turn. It is true that the people | :02:51. | :02:57. | |
dealing with customers in the UK, the 1% of customers who see UK | :02:57. | :03:01. | |
Google staff, are incentivised to encourage people to spend money with | :03:01. | :03:08. | |
Google. That is appropriate. Therefore, they do have targets that | :03:08. | :03:13. | |
include the growth of the business they are responsible for a cross a | :03:13. | :03:18. | |
range of industry sectors. So it is true that people have targets. Many | :03:18. | :03:25. | |
countries incentivised staff to grow the business. | :03:25. | :03:29. | |
That was the boss of Google. You can tell he is the boss, he does not | :03:29. | :03:35. | |
have a tie, even when he goes to the Commons. Obviously, people are | :03:35. | :03:38. | |
paying taxes to the hilt. They hate it when these rich companies make a | :03:39. | :03:44. | |
tonne of money out of us and are not paying their fair whack. I right in | :03:44. | :03:51. | |
thinking, though, that people are less upset with Google that they are | :03:51. | :03:54. | |
with Starbucks? You are right. It is incredibly interesting. If you look | :03:54. | :03:57. | |
at Google's corporate reputation and track it over time, it has barely | :03:57. | :04:02. | |
taken a hit over this period. It is still scoring highly. By contrast, | :04:02. | :04:07. | |
Starbucks has gone off the edge of a cliff. If you think about why that | :04:07. | :04:12. | |
might be, I think it is about the extent to which a company has | :04:12. | :04:16. | |
managed to store up some reputational capital. If you seem to | :04:16. | :04:19. | |
be a good corporate citizen to the public, then when something goes | :04:19. | :04:24. | |
wrong, you have something to draw on. That is where Google is now. It | :04:24. | :04:28. | |
remains to be seen if they can keep things that way, but they are doing | :04:28. | :04:34. | |
OK. It could also be that Starbucks charge for quid per coffee. Whereas | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
Google is free. Which is why people like it. The high street is full of | :04:38. | :04:46. | |
other coffee shops. And there are other search engines, but Google | :04:46. | :04:51. | |
dominates. And they seem to provide a good service. It will be | :04:51. | :04:54. | |
interesting to see what happens over time. Talking to somebody who works | :04:54. | :04:58. | |
at Google off the record last week, she said to me that the staff there | :04:58. | :05:03. | |
were very upset by this. They think they are working for a great | :05:03. | :05:09. | |
company, and when something goes wrong, it rocks their confidence. | :05:09. | :05:14. | |
the upset is more internal than external. Staff morale is not good. | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
Now, time for our quiz. We all know the British consumers | :05:18. | :05:21. | |
abroad offers welcome assistance to travellers who are in trouble, but | :05:21. | :05:26. | |
the foreign office is warning that there are some things it cannot help | :05:26. | :05:31. | |
with, like telling them when spring is going to happen. Which of these | :05:31. | :05:41. | |
:05:41. | :05:42. | ||
have they not been asked to assist with? Silencing a nosy cockerel, | :05:42. | :05:48. | |
recommending the best place to watch football, ordering a husband to get | :05:48. | :05:51. | |
fit and eat healthily so he and his wife and have children, or | :05:51. | :05:55. | |
requesting an audience with the Pope? At the end of the show, Debra | :05:55. | :05:59. | |
will have a stab at getting the correct answer. | :05:59. | :06:03. | |
Now, it will come as no surprise to read your viewers, all three of you, | :06:04. | :06:08. | |
to learn that last night, half of all Conservative backbenchers voted | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
to criticise David Cameron's Queen's Speech for failing to propose a | :06:12. | :06:15. | |
European Union referendum. Maybe they forgot they are part of a | :06:15. | :06:19. | |
coalition government in which the other country is the most Europhile | :06:19. | :06:29. | |
:06:29. | :06:30. | ||
of British parties. But memories are short these days, so here is a | :06:30. | :06:34. | |
flavour of the debate. For too long, the electorate has not been able to | :06:34. | :06:36. | |
express its opinion on the changing nature of our relationship. The | :06:36. | :06:38. | |
political establishment has closed ranks over the last 30 years and | :06:38. | :06:44. | |
denied the electorate a choice. We now have a golden opportunity to | :06:44. | :06:49. | |
right this wrong. We should be bold of heart, seize the moment and do | :06:49. | :06:55. | |
what is right by the electorate and by the country. I therefore intend | :06:55. | :07:02. | |
to move this amendment. Those who voted UKIP and are likely to vote | :07:02. | :07:07. | |
UKIP in next year's European elections will not be impressed | :07:07. | :07:11. | |
unless we are making every effort to have a referendum as soon as | :07:11. | :07:16. | |
possible, rather than when it suits the three main political parties for | :07:16. | :07:20. | |
whatever reason that we want to put it off. The reason why it is | :07:20. | :07:27. | |
essential that we hold this referendum urgently is because the | :07:27. | :07:31. | |
changes in the relationship will enable us to disentangle ourselves | :07:31. | :07:39. | |
from the spiders web which we have become caught up in without asking | :07:39. | :07:45. | |
the British people since 1975 has got to be dealt with. It is a vital | :07:45. | :07:48. | |
question of national interest, and IBEC members of Parliament to | :07:48. | :07:55. | |
listen. The party opposite claims to be the party of business. And a key | :07:55. | :07:59. | |
hate for business is prolonged economic uncertainty. And now we are | :07:59. | :08:03. | |
telling inward investors we might leave the EU, but we will let them | :08:03. | :08:09. | |
know in four years' time. Japanese, American, European inward investors | :08:09. | :08:14. | |
all make it clear that they are in the UK because the UK is in the EU. | :08:14. | :08:19. | |
Millions of jobs are at stake. A semi-detached status like | :08:19. | :08:24. | |
Switzerland and Norway means being banned by EE decisions without | :08:24. | :08:27. | |
having a voice. I gather that it is likely that an amendment may be | :08:27. | :08:33. | |
moved in another place today, regretting the absence of any | :08:33. | :08:40. | |
mention of this in the gracious speech. I of course would not | :08:40. | :08:45. | |
presume to give advice to my right honourable and honourable friends in | :08:45. | :08:53. | |
that place. But if I may venture an opinion, what is needed is a | :08:53. | :08:59. | |
thorough debate about the momentous issues, political and economic, and | :08:59. | :09:09. | |
this will not be assisted by an necessary and pointless votes. | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
That was Nigel Lawson. More of him later. With us now, the man who | :09:13. | :09:19. | |
proposed yesterday's bill, John Barron. 116 Conservative MPs voted | :09:19. | :09:23. | |
for your amendment. What have you achieved? | :09:23. | :09:27. | |
We have achieved the fact that the party has declared that it would | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
support a private member's bill. This was not on the table a week | :09:31. | :09:36. | |
ago. I would like to have won. Had we managed to carry the day, the | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
headlines this morning would have said Tories united, labour and | :09:40. | :09:44. | |
liberals in disarray, and we would have advanced the cause. So | :09:44. | :09:50. | |
disappointed that we did not win. instead, the Tories are disunited. | :09:50. | :09:56. | |
We are united on one thing. We also bought a 2017 in-out referendum. No | :09:56. | :10:01. | |
doubt about that. But how do you best convince the electorate that we | :10:01. | :10:06. | |
are serious about it? When you knock on the doors, there is deep public | :10:06. | :10:10. | |
mistrust when people hear politicians making promises. So many | :10:10. | :10:16. | |
have been broken in the past. So how do we convince them? Only 1% of | :10:16. | :10:20. | |
people think Europe is the most important issue facing Britain, but | :10:20. | :10:27. | |
you lot are banging on about it. tend to disagree. Where does the | :10:27. | :10:31. | |
economy and immigration come on that? You cannot talk about | :10:31. | :10:36. | |
immigration and the economy without also talking about Europe. Vandalism | :10:36. | :10:39. | |
comes higher. Europe is the 12th most important issue if you ask | :10:39. | :10:47. | |
people to list the most important issues. But Europe transcends a | :10:47. | :10:51. | |
number of issues. If you talk about immigration, you are talking about | :10:51. | :10:57. | |
Europe. But how do you best convince the electorate that we are serious? | :10:57. | :11:02. | |
Legislation is more believable than election manifesto promises. | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
given that you did not win the last election, you don't have the | :11:06. | :11:11. | |
majority in the Commons for legislation. But if we had won the | :11:11. | :11:17. | |
mandate last night, if the party had rallied round, we could have gone to | :11:17. | :11:22. | |
the Liberals and said look, Parliament has spoken. Now give us | :11:22. | :11:29. | |
more time. That might have given us more leverage than simply asking the | :11:29. | :11:36. | |
Liberals for more than. But your party did not rally round. It was | :11:36. | :11:42. | |
divided. It was not divided. Nobody voted against the amendment. But | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
yes, you don't table an amendment unless you hope to win it, and I am | :11:46. | :11:55. | |
sorry that we did not win it. Miliband's lead in the polls is not | :11:55. | :12:00. | |
great or robust. If you believe the governor of the Bank of England, | :12:00. | :12:04. | |
there are signs that the economy is on the rise. You could step back a | :12:04. | :12:07. | |
bit and say actually, things aren't so bad for the Tory party and the | :12:07. | :12:17. | |
coalition at the moment. So why are you inflicting damage on the pie | :12:17. | :12:21. | |
Minister? You say damage, but we have nudged the party closer to the | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
electorate. One week ago, we had no party support for a private members' | :12:25. | :12:28. | |
bills. We had no publication of the bill itself. Those are steps | :12:28. | :12:37. | |
forward. Do you not deny that it damages the prime minister? People | :12:37. | :12:46. | |
do not like divided parties. They see the division is taking place. | :12:46. | :12:51. | |
This week, you had Peter Mandelson almost confirming a Tory urban myth | :12:51. | :12:54. | |
at one stage that Labour was good grooming immigrants into this | :12:54. | :12:59. | |
country, is usually to your advantage. No one covered it, | :12:59. | :13:05. | |
because you were all banging on about Europe. But Europe is an | :13:05. | :13:09. | |
important subject to many people. We have achieved a lot in the last | :13:09. | :13:15. | |
week. The prime minister has decided to go down the road of a private | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
member's bill. We will support him in that and let's see if we can get | :13:18. | :13:25. | |
it through, but it is second-best to what happened last night. Deborah, | :13:25. | :13:30. | |
tell him about the polls. It is really not important to many people. | :13:30. | :13:36. | |
It has not made it into double figures in a decade, Europe. 7% say | :13:36. | :13:40. | |
it is one of the more important things. The public will be looking | :13:40. | :13:45. | |
at the Conservative Party and Bebo will did. They feel the country is | :13:45. | :13:49. | |
facing lots of problems. They are worried about how to pay the bills, | :13:49. | :13:58. | |
they are worried about the NHS and a whole bunch of things. And they see | :13:58. | :14:01. | |
two things, a party that seems to be talking about something they don't | :14:01. | :14:04. | |
care much about, and they see a party at war with itself. Actually, | :14:04. | :14:09. | |
we are more united as a party that we have probably been for a | :14:09. | :14:14. | |
generation. We all signed up to the 2017 referendum. That is not how it | :14:14. | :14:22. | |
looks. We disagree on how best you convince the electorate that we are | :14:22. | :14:31. | |
serious. In your view, what happens next? We will rally round and | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
support this private member's bill. I hope we can get it through, but | :14:35. | :14:40. | |
history suggests that a determined minority can block it. My worry is | :14:40. | :14:44. | |
that we have raised expectations again and then failed to deliver. | :14:44. | :14:47. | |
Unless the Liberals and Labour change their mind and let this | :14:47. | :14:51. | |
private members' bills through all the whips have a devious plan, and I | :14:51. | :14:56. | |
hope they have, I am afraid it will fail. So you have hit a dead end. | :14:56. | :15:02. | |
That is why I was pushing the amendment last night. Had we won | :15:02. | :15:06. | |
it, and the maths do stack up, we could have knocked on the door of | :15:06. | :15:12. | |
the Liberals and said, Parliament has spoken. Give us more time. | :15:12. | :15:17. | |
likelihood is that this train is going to hit the buffers. It is, | :15:17. | :15:20. | |
unfortunately, because most of private members' bills do. Don't get | :15:20. | :15:26. | |
me wrong, I hope it succeeds. But it is the best option. Come back and | :15:26. | :15:36. | |
:15:36. | :15:46. | ||
give us updates, for free. I will! unfolding at Westminster have been | :15:46. | :15:50. | |
followed closely understandably by politicians here in Europe. With | :15:50. | :15:55. | |
some bemusement, I understand. And my two guests have also been | :15:55. | :16:01. | |
following it closely. Sharon Bow le s and a Conservative MEP have come | :16:01. | :16:06. | |
to talk about it. First of all, would you describe it as an edifying | :16:06. | :16:09. | |
spectacle that has been displayed by your Parliamentary colleagues over | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
the issue of Europe? I think it's important that we realise that in | :16:12. | :16:18. | |
Britain there is a debate, a real debate taking place... Only in the | :16:18. | :16:22. | |
Conservative Party. No, it's in the nation. It has to be reflected in | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
Parliament. What would be dishonest if sitting with our partners here in | :16:26. | :16:30. | |
Europe saying to them that the leadership is dealing with all our | :16:30. | :16:32. | |
European issues and there's no debate in the United Kingdom. We | :16:32. | :16:36. | |
have to be up front and have all the cards on the table so we can go into | :16:36. | :16:40. | |
a mature debate in the UK and a set of reforms here in the European | :16:40. | :16:45. | |
Union. Would you have supported the amendment that regretted the absence | :16:45. | :16:51. | |
of any legislation for a referendum? I completely support a thorough | :16:51. | :16:55. | |
programme of discussion within the United Kingdom about our | :16:55. | :16:58. | |
relationship with the European Union, that is one of the steps | :16:58. | :17:03. | |
along the way to achieving that overall reform agenda. If there were | :17:03. | :17:08. | |
a referendum tomorrow, would you back out or in? We aren't going have | :17:08. | :17:13. | |
a referendum tomorrow. Are you out or in? A referendum will ultimately | :17:13. | :17:16. | |
take place, every Conservative in the land is signed up to that. As | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
and when it does take place, I will be campaigning for a Yes vote along | :17:21. | :17:24. | |
with the Prime Minister. The Liberal Democrats have been accused of | :17:24. | :17:28. | |
showing complete disdain to the voting public in Britain. They have, | :17:28. | :17:32. | |
in effect, blocked paving legislation for a rove dome happen | :17:32. | :17:38. | |
in 2017. Yes, we think this is totally the wrong time. We are | :17:38. | :17:42. | |
potentially going to have a referendum on an unknown Unknown. | :17:42. | :17:47. | |
This is not right. We thought it was right there should be a referendum | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
if there is any further transfer of powers. I think the way the | :17:51. | :17:57. | |
political time table works with the next time German and French | :17:57. | :18:01. | |
elections it's likely something might happen by 2017. To fix | :18:01. | :18:04. | |
something in stone when you don't actually know what the result is | :18:04. | :18:10. | |
seems to be wrong and it would certainly be wrong to have some kind | :18:10. | :18:14. | |
of in/out referendum now when we've not had any debate in Parliament and | :18:14. | :18:17. | |
don't have enough debates in Westminster about what is actually | :18:17. | :18:22. | |
going on in Europe in the different policy areas. Everybody is ignorant. | :18:22. | :18:26. | |
What do you think your colleagues here in Brussels have thought of | :18:26. | :18:30. | |
what's gone on at home in Westminster? Some actually are quite | :18:30. | :18:34. | |
understanding because we are all politicians and they understand that | :18:34. | :18:38. | |
they have problems within their own parties at times. Others are a | :18:38. | :18:41. | |
little bit surprised. They certainly don't want to be black mailed and | :18:41. | :18:46. | |
that's the message. I think they understand when you get these | :18:46. | :18:50. | |
political troubles within a party, but they're aghast that we might do | :18:50. | :18:54. | |
something by mistake and come out of Europe from a point of ignorance. | :18:54. | :19:00. | |
Vince Cable today has said the Conservative Party is plunging | :19:00. | :19:02. | |
Britain into a period of dreadful uncertainty from a business | :19:02. | :19:06. | |
perspective. Not at all. We've been clear about what we want to achieve | :19:06. | :19:10. | |
here. We've put in place a review in the United Kingdom. That's under | :19:10. | :19:14. | |
way. We are leading on a reform programme in the European Union. | :19:14. | :19:18. | |
Ultimately we will have a referendum. You don't agree with | :19:18. | :19:22. | |
Nigel Lawson that it's pointless to have a renegotiation? You have a | :19:22. | :19:25. | |
clear set of stages that have been set out for the British people now. | :19:25. | :19:29. | |
It's important that we stick to that and we actually have a mature debate | :19:29. | :19:33. | |
rather than simply mud slinging as is what is happening in certain | :19:33. | :19:40. | |
quarters as well. Thank you both very much. Back to you Andrew. | :19:40. | :19:45. | |
As if by magic we're joined by the former Conservative Chancellor Nigel | :19:45. | :19:47. | |
Lawson. Welcome back to the programme. I hear you've been | :19:47. | :19:53. | |
causing trouble. Never. You know me, I never cause trouble. I read it. | :19:53. | :19:58. | |
You can't believe what you read in the newspapers. Now, in the Lords | :19:58. | :20:02. | |
yesterday we had a clip of it before you came on, you said the EU | :20:02. | :20:08. | |
campaign would not be assisted by "a necessary and pointless votes". Uals | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
yesterday's Commons vote pointless? Yes, I think it was. I think it is | :20:12. | :20:15. | |
the fact that everybody is now, of course it will go away because | :20:16. | :20:21. | |
somebody once said a week is a long time in politics. But I mean, it | :20:21. | :20:25. | |
will go away. For the moment now, instead of discussing the issues, | :20:25. | :20:29. | |
and there are some important issues there on both sides, good arguments | :20:29. | :20:33. | |
to be made and I've entered the fray setting out the stall as I see it. | :20:33. | :20:38. | |
Instead of focussing on the issues what they're doing is talking about | :20:38. | :20:40. | |
the Conservative pitch, nothing else. That's why I thought it was | :20:40. | :20:45. | |
foolish. Did you, when you wrote this art actual in the Times, which | :20:45. | :20:53. | |
was more than a pebble in a small pond, did you expect it to ramp up | :20:53. | :20:56. | |
the pressure on the Prime Minister as much as it has? I hoped, | :20:56. | :21:01. | |
obviously, it would make an impact. If one's writing something one hopes | :21:01. | :21:10. | |
it will make an impact. But what I did have a negotiation with the | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
Times, not only the fee but over the length of the piece. Because it was | :21:14. | :21:18. | |
longer than they normally do. They were reluctant. I said I wouldn't do | :21:18. | :21:23. | |
it unless you give me 2,000 words because it's a complicatedish up and | :21:23. | :21:33. | |
I want to sell -- comploted issue and I want to set it out properly. | :21:33. | :21:37. | |
Did you alert Downing Street before? I am just an independent | :21:37. | :21:41. | |
backbencher, old man with a past and no future. I'm not interested in | :21:41. | :21:47. | |
preferment. All the violins are playing. Let me put to you what the | :21:47. | :21:52. | |
Prime Minister responded to your pessimism about the likely lack of | :21:52. | :21:57. | |
success in renegotiation. He said, " We shouldn't give up before | :21:57. | :22:00. | |
negotiation has started. It seems an extraordinary way to go about | :22:00. | :22:03. | |
things. The idea of throwing in the towel before the negotiation has | :22:03. | :22:11. | |
started. -- started is a very strange opinion.". I think he | :22:11. | :22:14. | |
misunderstood. I wasn't saying he shouldn't try to negotiate. Good | :22:14. | :22:19. | |
luck to him. I was saying what in my judgment and experience is likely to | :22:19. | :22:23. | |
be the outcome. Do you say to the Conservatives who sat in that chair, | :22:23. | :22:26. | |
Sir Malcom Rifkind included, saying ah, they all said that when Maggie | :22:26. | :22:30. | |
went to get our rebate back which was one against whatever number it | :22:30. | :22:34. | |
was. No-one gave her a chance. Even the Foreign Office and she did it. | :22:34. | :22:40. | |
She did extremely well. But that was a simple issue. This is immensely | :22:40. | :22:44. | |
complicated. It would, nobody I know, I know a lot of people within | :22:44. | :22:48. | |
the European institutions, I know people who have formally served in | :22:48. | :22:53. | |
the European institutions, none of them expect that any major change is | :22:53. | :22:58. | |
negotiable. We all remember the last time a Prime Minister tried that, | :22:58. | :23:05. | |
Harold Wilson in the 1970s, and the concession,if you like, that he | :23:05. | :23:11. | |
managed to secure, was so in, not even you can remember what they | :23:11. | :23:15. | |
were. No, that's true. Actually I can remember one of them was to do | :23:15. | :23:21. | |
with agriculture. The difference there was too that other thinned | :23:21. | :23:25. | |
morning star and the Daily Express every newspaper was in favour of us | :23:26. | :23:30. | |
staying in. They conspired to make it seem a big deal that he had done | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
enough to get the vote. That's right. It was a very time... Time. | :23:33. | :23:42. | |
It won't happen this time. No. This time, the press are divided. I think | :23:42. | :23:49. | |
the people are rather more sceptical. There are people on both | :23:49. | :23:56. | |
sides where it was the only people on the other side that time were | :23:56. | :24:02. | |
Enoch Powell and Tony Benn who are both very good ortors but people | :24:02. | :24:06. | |
didn't trust them very much. It is going to be different this time. I | :24:06. | :24:10. | |
think the issues are different. I voted in favour of staying in In | :24:10. | :24:15. | |
1975. But since the coming of the single currency, the euro, and the | :24:15. | :24:18. | |
creation of the eurozone, and the political consequences of that, the | :24:18. | :24:24. | |
whole nature has changed. Therefore I thoroughly support the Prime | :24:24. | :24:27. | |
Minister in his decision that we should have a referendum in 2017. | :24:27. | :24:36. | |
Just to claireify, you -- Klairify, you support the current strategy of | :24:36. | :24:40. | |
the Prime Minister to try to get reelected as an overall Government, | :24:40. | :24:45. | |
go to renegotiate in Europe and put that renegotiate in an in-out | :24:45. | :24:48. | |
referendum. You just don't think you'll get very far in the | :24:48. | :24:52. | |
renegotiation? That's right. I don't think he will achieve anything | :24:52. | :24:58. | |
substantial. I think there will be extreme reluctance to offer anything | :24:58. | :25:02. | |
substantial. There will be extreme reluctance to offering to us alone | :25:02. | :25:06. | |
because other countries will say what about us and so on. With the | :25:06. | :25:10. | |
best will in the world, I don't think it's on. I think if the | :25:10. | :25:15. | |
British people see that no fault of his but because they're not prepared | :25:15. | :25:21. | |
to yield, it takes two sides to do a deal, if the British people see that | :25:21. | :25:26. | |
he's really come back with an empty bucket of goodies then I don't think | :25:26. | :25:29. | |
they're going to be fooled in the way they were with the Wilson | :25:29. | :25:35. | |
episode. This issue could face Labour and the Lib Dems as well. If | :25:35. | :25:39. | |
the eurozone, I've come back from Europe where the talk is what kind | :25:39. | :25:43. | |
of political, fiscal union do they need to make the eurozone work now, | :25:43. | :25:48. | |
that will inevitably involve treaty change and we could need a | :25:48. | :25:53. | |
referendum any way for this treaty change. That's absolutely right. | :25:53. | :25:57. | |
That is slightly different because the referendum will only be about do | :25:57. | :26:03. | |
you agree with the particular things in this new treaty. Rather than | :26:03. | :26:08. | |
in-out. Yes. The eurozone cannot become an ever closer union to quote | :26:08. | :26:11. | |
the treaty of Rome without that having consequences of Britain and | :26:11. | :26:15. | |
changing our relationship any way. Yes, absolutely. And people want a | :26:15. | :26:17. | |
referendum. I mean there's no question about that. Having said | :26:18. | :26:20. | |
that they'd like a referendum on everything. They like the idea of | :26:20. | :26:27. | |
having their say. As Mr Atly once said, " We expect a period of quiet | :26:27. | :26:32. | |
from you now? I should think, so for a little while. Next time you have | :26:32. | :26:35. | |
anything to say, come back and see us. Thank you very much.Nigel | :26:35. | :26:40. | |
Lawson. Where next for the EU Referendum Bill? Let's look at an | :26:40. | :26:43. | |
ancient Parliamentary procedure looks a lot like bingo and it | :26:43. | :26:49. | |
occurred this morning. 20 names were drawn in reverse order in the | :26:49. | :26:54. | |
private members ballot. Number one... The last but not least and | :26:54. | :27:04. | |
:27:04. | :27:20. | ||
the winner of the day is- shake them up, David- 199. James W had a rton. | :27:20. | :27:25. | |
-- Wharton. Order, order that concludes the proceedings. | :27:25. | :27:30. | |
winner James Wharton joins us now. Congratulations, what will your bill | :27:30. | :27:33. | |
be? I'm going to take forward the Conservative Party draft bill on | :27:34. | :27:37. | |
legislating for a referendum on our relationship with the European Union | :27:37. | :27:43. | |
by the end of 2017. OK, but yesterday you blamed colleagues who | :27:43. | :27:46. | |
"enjoy the limelight for allowing the debate about Europe to crowd out | :27:46. | :27:50. | |
discussion of other topics" what happened? I think that's the point. | :27:50. | :27:54. | |
We've been talking about Europe a lot in recent weeks and it keeps | :27:54. | :27:57. | |
coming to the surface and being debated. Most of my constituents | :27:57. | :28:00. | |
want me to talk about the cost of living, education, hospitals, things | :28:00. | :28:05. | |
that matter to them. Why don't you do a bill on that? Because this | :28:05. | :28:08. | |
European issue hangs over so many aspects of British life and | :28:08. | :28:13. | |
political debate, I think it's time that we resolve it and MPs of all | :28:13. | :28:16. | |
political persuasions should be given their opportunity to vote to | :28:16. | :28:20. | |
have their say on whether we believe we should have a referendum or not. | :28:20. | :28:24. | |
I hope when it's done it can put this issue to bed and focus on the | :28:24. | :28:28. | |
other issues that matter deeply to the constituents. Have you spoken to | :28:29. | :28:31. | |
the whips or do they speak to you in advance about this choice of | :28:31. | :28:35. | |
subject? They didn't speak to me in advance. But I have spoken to the | :28:35. | :28:39. | |
whips. Given the debate over the last couple of of weeks any | :28:39. | :28:42. | |
Conservative MP was high up the private members ballot was expected | :28:42. | :28:46. | |
this is what they would take forward, a very important issue that | :28:46. | :28:51. | |
needs to be resolved. Clarify, the Conservative whips want you to take | :28:51. | :28:56. | |
this bill forward? They haven't formally said they want me to do it, | :28:56. | :28:59. | |
I've had discussions and they're supportive, as are colleagues across | :28:59. | :29:03. | |
the party. I should say colleagues from different parties as well. I've | :29:03. | :29:07. | |
had a stream of text messages, e-mails and calls from MPs wanting | :29:07. | :29:12. | |
to support the bills, not just Conservatives, but in the Opposition | :29:12. | :29:15. | |
too. It's important that people are given the opportunity to have their | :29:15. | :29:20. | |
say. You know, this isn't the end of the story by bringing this forward. | :29:20. | :29:25. | |
This just kicks the story further down the road and puts more strain | :29:25. | :29:29. | |
on the coalition, that's all it does. Your bill's never going to | :29:29. | :29:33. | |
become law but it will continue to stir things up in the coalition? | :29:33. | :29:37. | |
That depends on what happens when this is brought before the floor of | :29:37. | :29:43. | |
the House. I hope MPs will be given the chance to vote with their | :29:43. | :29:47. | |
consciences and to agree or not. The Liberal Democrats promised an in-out | :29:47. | :29:51. | |
referendum in the manifesto at the last election. Nick Clegg has a bad | :29:51. | :29:54. | |
reputation for going back on his promises. I hope he won't go back on | :29:54. | :29:57. | |
this one and think again about his positions. Any indication that's the | :29:57. | :30:02. | |
Government will make time for this? My understands is that it can only | :30:02. | :30:06. | |
make time if all the coalition agrees and they don't. That's one of | :30:06. | :30:10. | |
the challenges. You don't necessarily need Government time if | :30:10. | :30:13. | |
you get it through in Private Members' Bill time. It's helpful if | :30:13. | :30:19. | |
the Government time table scope for debate on this. That can only be | :30:19. | :30:22. | |
done with both sides agreeing. The indication shows that's not likely | :30:22. | :30:25. | |
to happen. The Liberal Democrats promised they would support a | :30:25. | :30:29. | |
referendum. I want to hold them to that promise. If they don't, it will | :30:29. | :30:33. | |
be another promise they have broken. I don't think people will look | :30:33. | :30:37. | |
kindly on it, whatever the view of Europe. You came first in the | :30:37. | :30:39. | |
Parliamentary bingo, are you buying a lottery ticket this weekend? As | :30:39. | :30:45. | |
tempted as I am, I don't know if aisle Sree time. I was going back to | :30:45. | :30:48. | |
my constituency today for a busy day, which has been rescheduled | :30:48. | :30:52. | |
because of all that's taken place this morning. You're already | :30:52. | :30:56. | |
neglected his constituency in pursuit of this. We've had to | :30:56. | :30:59. | |
reschedule a number of things, I'll be there over the weekend but I'm | :30:59. | :31:03. | |
not sure about the lottery ticket. I'm sure you can find the time. My | :31:03. | :31:05. | |
I'm sure you can find the time. My I'm sure you can find the time. My | :31:05. | :31:15. | |
:31:15. | :31:21. | ||
I'm sure you can find the time. My are joining us. They have been | :31:21. | :31:24. | |
watching first Minister's Questions in Hollywood and now join us on the | :31:24. | :31:29. | |
Daily Politics. Now for something completely different. | :31:29. | :31:35. | |
Brian Mawhinney's greatest hits. At five, Brian, the boy from Belfast, | :31:35. | :31:37. | |
became a Conservative minister in the Northern Ireland since in the | :31:37. | :31:43. | |
early 90s. A decision was made to bring extra troops to the province. | :31:43. | :31:48. | |
At four, he had his demonise on labour as chairman of the | :31:48. | :31:54. | |
Conservative Party. At three, he took to the beat as shadow home | :31:54. | :32:01. | |
secretary. At two, the early noughties saw him kicking off his | :32:01. | :32:05. | |
career in the beautiful game as chairman of the football league. | :32:05. | :32:10. | |
These clubs understand the realities and want to move football forward | :32:10. | :32:15. | |
under the umbrella of good governance. And that one, in 2005, | :32:15. | :32:22. | |
he donned the ermine, and the boy from Belfast became a barren. | :32:22. | :32:32. | |
:32:32. | :32:32. | ||
And Brian Mawhinney is here. When you see some of that, would you | :32:32. | :32:38. | |
agree that politics has changed a lot? Yes, it has. For better or | :32:38. | :32:47. | |
worse? Truthfully, I think the jury is out. There is a lot more | :32:47. | :32:56. | |
information available now in all sorts of new media. I am not sure | :32:56. | :33:00. | |
that Parliament has come to terms with how important all of that is. | :33:00. | :33:07. | |
Should it be more important? Should it be just another manifestation of | :33:07. | :33:10. | |
what is old timers used to know by talking to people day in and day | :33:10. | :33:16. | |
out? The idea that MPs now know a lot more about what the public | :33:16. | :33:23. | |
thinks, I am not sure that is accurate. At least we are good MPs. | :33:23. | :33:27. | |
One thing that has not changed is that Tory leaders asked in a pickle | :33:27. | :33:33. | |
over Europe. If you will forgive me saying so, it is deja vu all over | :33:33. | :33:39. | |
again. Would you have any advice, having lived through all this, for | :33:39. | :33:45. | |
Mr Cameron? This may ruin my reputation, but I want to agree with | :33:45. | :33:50. | |
what you were saying over Europe. What was that? That Europe is not | :33:50. | :33:56. | |
the big issue. The big issue is the economy. The economy embraces the | :33:56. | :34:06. | |
issue of Europe. The single currency, the movement toward data | :34:06. | :34:16. | |
:34:16. | :34:17. | ||
unity, all of those affect us. Business in the countries of Europe | :34:17. | :34:22. | |
is not going well at the moment. That affect us. I am not trying to | :34:22. | :34:27. | |
say Europe is irrelevant, but Europe is primarily important in the | :34:27. | :34:34. | |
context of the economy, which is the number one issue. Which is your | :34:34. | :34:38. | |
point. And immigration as well. But people are bill will did about why | :34:38. | :34:42. | |
politicians spend so much time talking about it. It feels very out | :34:42. | :34:48. | |
of touch to them. But your party have a problem they did not have in | :34:48. | :34:51. | |
your day, which is that they have this substantial challenge from the | :34:51. | :34:56. | |
right now. Mrs Thatcher never left room for a challenge from the right | :34:56. | :35:00. | |
on most issues. And if one materialised, it quickly petered | :35:00. | :35:05. | |
out. We have seen the latest polls today, and UKIP is on a roll. | :35:05. | :35:14. | |
agree again with you, in the sense that it is part of the job of | :35:14. | :35:18. | |
Conservative leadership to make sure that they can't be passed on the | :35:18. | :35:25. | |
right. Where they want to place themselves on the spectrum, I have | :35:25. | :35:30. | |
always been, as I suspect you know, somebody who believes that you win | :35:30. | :35:34. | |
elections by being fairly close to the centre. You can't get elected on | :35:34. | :35:41. | |
a core vote of 30%. Excuse me, but I am an expert. You have got to | :35:41. | :35:48. | |
broaden the base towards the centre. Leadership needs to make | :35:48. | :35:55. | |
sure you can't be passed on the right. Where it puts itself is a | :35:55. | :36:03. | |
matter for political judgement. We are seeing a certain amount of | :36:03. | :36:06. | |
movement at the moment. I am old-fashioned enough to believe that | :36:06. | :36:09. | |
in two years' time, you will be spending less time talking about | :36:10. | :36:15. | |
UKIP. They will love to hear you say that, because that is what they want | :36:15. | :36:19. | |
you to think. Everybody says they want to win from the centre. The | :36:19. | :36:25. | |
question is, whereas the? Mr Miliband thinks he has the party we | :36:25. | :36:29. | |
want to see. Some people think Tony Blair and Margaret Thatcher have | :36:29. | :36:33. | |
been able to define whether centre is themselves. It is interesting at | :36:33. | :36:38. | |
the moment. If you ask people, whereas the centre, and where are | :36:38. | :36:41. | |
the main parties, people now think the Conservative Party is further to | :36:42. | :36:46. | |
the right than it used to be and the Labour Party is further to the left. | :36:46. | :36:54. | |
Both are pulling away in the wrong direction. Let me tell you why I | :36:54. | :36:57. | |
think your analysis is right. The reason UKIP won't be pleased to hear | :36:57. | :37:03. | |
me say it is because I say it on the basis that they don't have a | :37:04. | :37:11. | |
coherent little strategy or set of policies which will create, in the | :37:11. | :37:16. | |
minds of people, people form a judgement about a party and a | :37:16. | :37:26. | |
:37:26. | :37:26. | ||
leader. They do not looked at 12 manifesto commitments. They look at | :37:26. | :37:31. | |
people and how they behave and what the party is about, and they form a | :37:31. | :37:37. | |
judgement. And when UKIP starts getting under the searchlight which | :37:37. | :37:39. | |
you generously spread across the rest of the political parties week | :37:39. | :37:47. | |
in and week out, I am not hopeful. What is the title of your book? | :37:47. | :37:52. | |
a simple Belfast boy. In all good book shops. Thank you for being with | :37:52. | :37:58. | |
They are ahead in the polls, they won a raft of seats in this month's | :37:59. | :38:03. | |
local elections and their opponents are in turmoil over Europe. Despite | :38:03. | :38:07. | |
these positives, a lot of critics are asking why it has gone wrong for | :38:07. | :38:11. | |
labour and white Ed Miliband does not seem to be cutting through to | :38:11. | :38:20. | |
the public. In an increasingly complicated | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
political world, Ed Miliband is going back to basics and bringing | :38:24. | :38:28. | |
back the soapbox. It is his way of showing he is down with the voters, | :38:28. | :38:35. | |
and it did work for John Major. The only problem is that in Ed's case, | :38:35. | :38:42. | |
the voters have yet to be convinced. The electorate does not see Ed | :38:42. | :38:46. | |
Miliband as a potential prime minister at the moment. People | :38:46. | :38:50. | |
preferred David Cameron as prime minister to Ed Miliband, because Ed | :38:50. | :38:53. | |
Miliband is seen to lack the particular qualities a prime | :38:53. | :38:59. | |
minister needs. It is a fantastic day for Mr Woodley. You should all | :38:59. | :39:03. | |
buy Mr Wigley's ice cream today. despite the coalition's best | :39:03. | :39:09. | |
efforts, Labour's poll could do with some sprinkles. Our polls have shown | :39:09. | :39:14. | |
Labour ahead for ten points for most of the year. But recently, it has | :39:15. | :39:20. | |
been more like seven points. Labour are not sufficiently far ahead for | :39:20. | :39:23. | |
the party to be confident of winning the next election. The rise of UKIP | :39:23. | :39:27. | |
and the SNP mean that we now have in effect for party politics, so maybe | :39:27. | :39:32. | |
those big old Leeds are a thing of the past. No party has won an | :39:32. | :39:38. | |
immediate outright majority in 80 years. So are people asking too much | :39:38. | :39:42. | |
of Ed? You have to hang on a minute. We did lose that last | :39:42. | :39:47. | |
general election, so we had to regroup but we are already topping | :39:48. | :39:51. | |
the polls, although to read some papers, you would not believe that. | :39:51. | :40:01. | |
We bring better than UKIP, contrary to the reports you here, and we are | :40:01. | :40:03. | |
winning in all parts of the country, whether that is hollow or Hastings. | :40:03. | :40:06. | |
We have a message that appeals broadly across the country. But that | :40:06. | :40:15. | |
kind of thinking actually frightens Labour's internal critics. The real | :40:15. | :40:21. | |
danger is that the people around Ed Dick they can somehow get there on | :40:21. | :40:27. | |
one more heave, that they can cross the line with a final surge of | :40:27. | :40:31. | |
disaffected Lib Dem voters and Labour's core vote to give them the | :40:31. | :40:35. | |
majority they need. But all the evidence is that you have to reach | :40:35. | :40:40. | |
way beyond your base. But how? Labour and Ed Miliband need to start | :40:40. | :40:45. | |
taking risks. When Tony Blair was leader of the opposition in the 90s, | :40:45. | :40:49. | |
Labour had a huge poll lead and Tony Blair was rightly very defensive and | :40:49. | :40:53. | |
reassuring. He did not want to lose that Labour vote. Ed Miliband does | :40:53. | :40:59. | |
not have a beginner lead to operate a defensive strategy. It is like a | :40:59. | :41:03. | |
football club a goal down at half-time. It needs to go on the | :41:03. | :41:08. | |
attack and take risks and be bolder. That tone could then help deal with | :41:08. | :41:13. | |
the other problems to do with economic competence and perceptions | :41:13. | :41:17. | |
of Ed Miliband's leadership. needs to speak a language that | :41:17. | :41:20. | |
people can understand. All this talk of predators versus producers and | :41:20. | :41:25. | |
all of the jargon may have some coherent ideas behind it, but if you | :41:25. | :41:29. | |
can't explain that across a garden fence, what is the point of it? | :41:29. | :41:33. | |
There is no point being the cleverest man in the room if no one | :41:33. | :41:37. | |
understands you. Convincing people you should be their leader is tough. | :41:37. | :41:41. | |
Ed Miliband is certainly putting in the leg work. But at the moment, it | :41:41. | :41:46. | |
seems the people are still looking for something more. | :41:46. | :41:51. | |
I am joined now by Labour's shadow public health minister, Diane | :41:51. | :41:55. | |
Abbott, and by the populist pollster, Ric Nye. Why is Labour | :41:55. | :42:02. | |
doing so poorly? You can't judge everything by the latest round of | :42:02. | :42:10. | |
local election results. They were elections in county seats. We forget | :42:10. | :42:13. | |
history. I don't think Cameron was cutting through so well at this | :42:14. | :42:22. | |
point. And he did not win the election. And there is that!She is | :42:22. | :42:28. | |
already hitting me after being on for two minutes! Is Ed Miliband | :42:28. | :42:36. | |
ready to be prime minister? 66% say no. That is partly reflecting what | :42:36. | :42:42. | |
people have read in the media. They are too stupid to make up their own | :42:42. | :42:50. | |
minds? No, but you know journalists affect how people think. And it is | :42:50. | :42:54. | |
partly reflecting a lot of embittered David Miliband | :42:54. | :43:03. | |
supporters. 54% think it is unlikely that he will be PM, and 66% don't | :43:03. | :43:07. | |
think he is ready. I would suggest that the real weakness for Labour is | :43:07. | :43:12. | |
that in national politics, if you put aside the issues in Wales, | :43:12. | :43:15. | |
Scotland and Northern Ireland, but on the overall national issues, if | :43:15. | :43:19. | |
you don't like this coalition, there was only one major party to vote | :43:19. | :43:24. | |
for, which is Labour, because the Lib Dems are part of it. So the | :43:24. | :43:29. | |
centre-left vote is not split any more. If you don't like what this | :43:29. | :43:34. | |
lot are doing, vote Labour, and yet your party is still doing poorly. | :43:34. | :43:39. | |
You will find that the Lib Dems will be better in the general election | :43:39. | :43:49. | |
:43:49. | :43:50. | ||
than those polls indicate. That was how they did so well in Eastleigh. | :43:50. | :43:54. | |
We are confident that we will do better. The more that people meet Ed | :43:55. | :44:00. | |
Miliband, the more persuaded they will be. Let me put a proposition to | :44:00. | :44:09. | |
you. For this stage in the political cycle, Labour's poll lead is narrow | :44:09. | :44:14. | |
and not robust. Discuss. It is comfortable in one sense, but very | :44:14. | :44:20. | |
soft in another. A regular seven to ten point lead, depending on what | :44:20. | :44:24. | |
poll you are looking at. But the dilemma for Labour is whether they | :44:24. | :44:32. | |
stick or twist. Do they stay where they are, thinking that the Liberal | :44:32. | :44:35. | |
Democrats -- disaffected Liberal Democrat voters will take them into | :44:35. | :44:44. | |
the next election? Or do they just wait for it all to go wrong with the | :44:44. | :44:49. | |
coalition, or do they start to take some strategic risks as your film | :44:49. | :44:53. | |
suggested to flesh out the kind of prime minister that Ed Miliband | :44:53. | :44:56. | |
would be? If I were a Labour strategist, I would be worried that | :44:56. | :45:02. | |
the lead is not that great and seems a bit flaky. And yet we have just | :45:02. | :45:06. | |
had three years of the most miserable economic news. Almost none | :45:06. | :45:09. | |
of the coalition's economic indicators have come right, but now | :45:09. | :45:14. | |
they look like they might be. Doesn't that make my lead, speaking | :45:14. | :45:24. | |
:45:24. | :45:33. | ||
as a virtual Labour strategist, even less robust? Clearly Labour is not | :45:33. | :45:39. | |
doing well enough. No party... Has come back from this kind of... | :45:39. | :45:45. | |
Why? I think they're not setting out their stall clearly enough. Is it | :45:45. | :45:52. | |
not also that people do not see Mr Miliband as Prime Ministerial? | :45:52. | :45:54. | |
Almost invariably you don't see someone as Prime Minister or | :45:54. | :45:58. | |
president,if you like, until they are in that role. Soy don't think, | :45:58. | :46:00. | |
he doesn't look like a Prime Minister, I don't buy that. I think | :46:00. | :46:05. | |
just to pick up on what was said in the film, I actually don't think Ed | :46:05. | :46:11. | |
Miliband himself believes in the one more heave theory. I think he feels | :46:11. | :46:15. | |
he has to transform thinking. needs to do so much more than he's | :46:15. | :46:23. | |
doing at the moment. Alan Johnson says he's showing too much in policy | :46:23. | :46:28. | |
terms. I don't think it's policy, it's vision. People don't know what | :46:28. | :46:33. | |
he stands for or believes in. vision, at least we know the | :46:33. | :46:40. | |
direction, his vision is to lay out his stall on a kind of as yet | :46:40. | :46:44. | |
undefined left which is maybe not left in the way old Labour was, but | :46:44. | :46:48. | |
not left in the way that New Labour was either. What is the evidence | :46:48. | :46:54. | |
that this country is moving left? Well, I think Ed Miliband himself | :46:54. | :46:57. | |
wouldn't use the word left to describe his thinking. When you say | :46:57. | :47:02. | |
what is the evidence that people are ready for a non-right-wing analysis, | :47:02. | :47:06. | |
if you look at the polls one of the issues people are most angry about | :47:06. | :47:10. | |
is bankers. This includes a lot of Tory voters. I think we can | :47:11. | :47:14. | |
capitalise on that. That's what the Tories and Lib Dems are doing, what | :47:14. | :47:18. | |
is the evidence other than the bankers, which everybody agrees | :47:18. | :47:23. | |
with, it may be fair or unfair, but they, do what is the evidence that | :47:23. | :47:28. | |
the general mood of the country has moved left. Because when I add up | :47:28. | :47:33. | |
the Tory vote and UKIP vote it seems to me it's moving right. You seem to | :47:33. | :47:36. | |
think that George Osborne's economic policies are going to succeed. | :47:36. | :47:43. | |
not at all. I've never said that. That's not what Christine Legard at | :47:43. | :47:47. | |
the IMF... What is the evidence that it's moving left? I think as the | :47:47. | :47:51. | |
public has to watch in slow motion the collapse of Osborne's plans and | :47:51. | :47:55. | |
as people understand the reality of these benefit cuts, I know they're | :47:55. | :47:59. | |
very popular now, that's because they think it's applying to someone | :47:59. | :48:04. | |
else, but the reality is that the country will move to Labour. A big | :48:04. | :48:10. | |
if, if there was to be an economic recovery, of a tangible size, not a | :48:10. | :48:16. | |
boom, but some kind of recovery that people felt it was getting better, | :48:16. | :48:21. | |
you'd be skullered. If there was -- scuppered. If there was economic | :48:21. | :48:26. | |
recovery, pigs would fly. So you're relying on that? I'm not relying on | :48:26. | :48:35. | |
it. Your winning formula depends on the country going to hell in a hand | :48:35. | :48:41. | |
basket? No, I'm saying that the things... Remember 1992.I do | :48:41. | :48:45. | |
remember 1992 very vividly. didn't you win that? The economy was | :48:45. | :48:52. | |
a basket case. There was the legacy of SDP and the rest of it. I am | :48:52. | :48:57. | |
saying that as events move forward... You have UKIP to worry | :48:57. | :49:02. | |
about. Yeah and they're having a nervous break down. In all the | :49:02. | :49:05. | |
polling you do, what sense of direction do you get that the | :49:05. | :49:11. | |
country is going in? I get the sense that the country is still feeling | :49:11. | :49:21. | |
:49:21. | :49:21. | ||
quite pessimistic about the future. What they don't feel is that Labour | :49:21. | :49:25. | |
is the alternative has a vision for the future of the country. They know | :49:25. | :49:28. | |
they're not the coalition. I'm not sure that is a sufficient condition | :49:28. | :49:32. | |
for Labour to win the next election. That is absolutely right. They don't | :49:32. | :49:37. | |
know enough about what Labour or Ed stands for. Ed's own ratings are OK | :49:37. | :49:43. | |
but they're not good enough. People are less likely now to recognise him | :49:43. | :49:50. | |
than a year ago. He's disappearing. Not a dangerous straighty for the | :49:50. | :49:54. | |
Opposition that the economy's got to continue to stagnate? Even if it | :49:54. | :50:00. | |
did, we saw in 1992, as we were just saying that people didn't turn, | :50:00. | :50:06. | |
flock towards Labour, actually they thought I'm staying where I am, I'm | :50:06. | :50:15. | |
scared. Were you surprised in '92? That was different. The polls were | :50:15. | :50:21. | |
wrong. I'm talking about the crisis in masculinity in a few minutes. | :50:21. | :50:28. | |
not got a job? I am the Shadow for public health. Do you want to hear | :50:28. | :50:35. | |
about drug abuse or alcohol alcoholism, mental health? According | :50:35. | :50:39. | |
to Dianne, men are not what they used to be. Have they over the years | :50:39. | :50:42. | |
lost their way? Is it because women are so good at everything these | :50:42. | :50:49. | |
days? Oar Kyle: The housewives find time | :50:49. | :50:53. | |
between chores to tackle the job of brick laying, using old bricks | :50:53. | :51:00. | |
they're building a wall and training come in useful. The only difference | :51:00. | :51:10. | |
:51:10. | :51:18. | ||
between mixing pastry and cement is housemaids knee. So a kneeling pad | :51:18. | :51:28. | |
:51:28. | :51:38. | ||
ones, the wall is a pretty good effort. Even an expert couldn't find | :51:38. | :51:42. | |
fault with the way Joan taps the bricks into line, they're on the | :51:42. | :51:52. | |
:51:52. | :51:53. | ||
level. Here's something every | :51:53. | :51:56. | |
self-respecting British workman stops for, a nice cup of tea. | :51:56. | :51:59. | |
There's no time to relax, their husbands will soon be home and | :51:59. | :52:05. | |
they're always so tired. Thanks to the Daily Politics team | :52:05. | :52:08. | |
who shot that film this morning in North London. They just lost the | :52:08. | :52:12. | |
colour code and Dianne here has been talking about men all morning. She | :52:12. | :52:15. | |
often talks about men, but she's been talking about men in a speech | :52:15. | :52:19. | |
this morning to a think-tank. It's called Demos. She's now joined by a | :52:19. | :52:24. | |
man who likes to talk about men as well, Ian Collins from LBC. Good | :52:24. | :52:28. | |
morning to you both. This crisis of masculinity, what is it I should be | :52:28. | :52:34. | |
worried about? You're not worried Andrew because you're an Alpha male. | :52:34. | :52:40. | |
But 90% of... Alpha male?90% of men are not. Society and the economy has | :52:40. | :52:44. | |
changed in ways which challenge some of the certainties about what | :52:44. | :52:50. | |
masculinity was. Some men, not just under-class men, but some men are | :52:50. | :52:54. | |
challenged by that. I think we need to have a conversation about that. | :52:54. | :52:57. | |
I've had so much response to this speech. I've only just delivered it. | :52:57. | :53:02. | |
It's an issue people want to engage with. Are you challenged? | :53:02. | :53:06. | |
confused, Andrew. That's the problem. Is the Labour frontbench so | :53:06. | :53:09. | |
bereft of masculinity that the lovely Dianne had to be wheeled out | :53:09. | :53:15. | |
for this one? What the heck happened there? I like to think that I've | :53:15. | :53:21. | |
seen every variant of masculine identity... The on the Labour | :53:21. | :53:28. | |
frontbench? MPs exhibit every type of patriarchal behaviour that you | :53:28. | :53:32. | |
want to see. You feel every year something like this comes up, that | :53:32. | :53:37. | |
men are challenged, that men aren't macho niche. Nothing's changed | :53:37. | :53:44. | |
really. Things have changed. I think men of my father's generation saw | :53:45. | :53:49. | |
you know defined themselves as men by earning and providing and | :53:49. | :53:54. | |
protecting. I think in a new economy, where the sorts of jobs | :53:54. | :53:59. | |
which traditionally blue collar men didn't do no longer exist was more | :53:59. | :54:05. | |
service oriented. Increasingly we see young men who define themselves | :54:05. | :54:08. | |
by conspicuous consumption and materialism. I think that can be | :54:09. | :54:14. | |
problematic. I'm not saying I like the black and white film we just | :54:14. | :54:17. | |
saw, there was a golden era for men. But I am saying that people want to | :54:17. | :54:21. | |
talk about what is the definition of masculinity when it's no longer | :54:21. | :54:25. | |
about earning and providing zpl. What does Britain think men? I think | :54:25. | :54:29. | |
that men have changed. I think they've changed for the better on | :54:29. | :54:34. | |
the whole. I think that most men would expect now to have more to do | :54:34. | :54:38. | |
with their children than they did a generation ago. They expect to do | :54:38. | :54:41. | |
more house work than they did a generation ago. You say that, but | :54:41. | :54:46. | |
you're talking about the men you know. I'm not.I'm talking about men | :54:46. | :54:51. | |
in Hackney and the kind of men in families studies Whose life is more | :54:51. | :54:53. | |
uncertain than it would have been in the days when London was a shipping | :54:54. | :54:58. | |
port. That's my point. It's just an evolution. Things change. It doesn't | :54:58. | :55:03. | |
mean there's a crisis. I'm a socialist. I believe in change. Buff | :55:03. | :55:07. | |
actually, even though people are less... You're a socialist? You're | :55:07. | :55:12. | |
in the Labour Party. Even though people are less homophobic at a | :55:12. | :55:16. | |
certain level, you see more gross and aggressive, violent homophobia | :55:16. | :55:20. | |
on the streets and on estates than you saw when I was a child. Not | :55:20. | :55:23. | |
everything has got better. mention technology and one of the | :55:23. | :55:29. | |
elements you were talking about was the pornification of males, that | :55:29. | :55:33. | |
we're dealing with that at the moment. These things usually exist | :55:33. | :55:39. | |
within a very small minority of men. No. It is part of an evolution. We | :55:39. | :55:42. | |
don't send blokes down pits any more. People get use to theed idea | :55:42. | :55:45. | |
that the work place has changed. The structure socially has changed. It's | :55:45. | :55:50. | |
a different kind of bloke. It's not a minority of men and boys. The | :55:50. | :55:55. | |
average age of boys doing hard core, I don't mean girls, hard core porn | :55:55. | :56:00. | |
online 11. That's, I don't think that's a change for the better. | :56:00. | :56:05. | |
Probably a technological change. If they could have done it years ago, | :56:05. | :56:08. | |
but look we have a minister for women, should we have a minister for | :56:08. | :56:14. | |
men? No.What's your point? Why do you want one for women though? | :56:14. | :56:20. | |
think every answer is dependent on Government as a socialist. No, not | :56:20. | :56:27. | |
that side of government. There are ways, especially economic, that | :56:27. | :56:31. | |
women have issues and challenges. All of us need to discuss masculine | :56:31. | :56:35. | |
identity. Labour Party has a women's conference, should we have a men's | :56:35. | :56:40. | |
conference on men's issues? That's the same argument if we have a black | :56:40. | :56:48. | |
history month, why not a white history month. If you want to get | :56:48. | :56:56. | |
George Galloway back... I'm not. This is the gig for Galloway. Ed has | :56:56. | :57:02. | |
cuddled up with gorgeous George and then spectacularly denied it. | :57:02. | :57:07. | |
Ed does in his private time is his business. Thank you.We've not an | :57:07. | :57:12. | |
answer to the famous Leninist question on this- what is to be | :57:13. | :57:16. | |
done? Better sex and health education and relationship education | :57:16. | :57:20. | |
in schools. Putting full employment as a goal of public policy back at | :57:20. | :57:25. | |
the centre and having Sure Start and parenting classes... It's never been | :57:25. | :57:29. | |
-- there's never been betser education. Sex and health education | :57:29. | :57:35. | |
is very poor. Also putter things like Sure Start and family classes | :57:35. | :57:39. | |
should actually focus on men some of the time. I thought when you started | :57:39. | :57:44. | |
that sentence I thought you were going to stop after you said "better | :57:44. | :57:52. | |
sex", that That was going to be Labour's policy. All right, good to | :57:52. | :57:55. | |
see you again. Thanks very much. Just time before we go to find out | :57:55. | :57:58. | |
the answer to the quiz. Which of these requests has the Foreign | :57:58. | :58:04. | |
Office not been asked to assist with? Silencing a noisy cock re, | :58:04. | :58:08. | |
recommend the best place to watch football, order a husband to get fit | :58:08. | :58:13. | |
and eat healthily so that he and his wife could have children, request an | :58:13. | :58:18. | |
audience with the Pope. Which was have they not dealt with? The Pope. | :58:18. | :58:22. | |
That's correct. We made that one up. Every other one is real, including | :58:22. | :58:26. | |
get a husband to lose weight. That's it. Thanks to our guests. The one | :58:26. | :58:31. | |
o'clock news is on BBC One. I'm back tonight on BBC One with a super | :58:31. | :58:37. | |
model line up, Tessa Jowell, Michael Portillo, Katie Price, Adam Boulton | :58:37. | :58:41. | |
and Toby Young. But not Dianne. She's in the allowed on any more. | :58:41. | :58:47. | |
What can I say? ! Join me this week at 11. 35pm on BBC One. I'm back | :58:47. | :58:54. |