Browse content similar to 10/06/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Welcome to the Daily Politics. Has Britain's eavesdropping agency GCHQ | :00:38. | :00:44. | |
been eavesdropping a bit too much? The Foreign Secretary, William Hague | :00:44. | :00:46. | |
will be making a commons statement later today over allegations that | :00:46. | :00:48. | |
the government's so-called spy centre used intelliegence from | :00:48. | :00:55. | |
American agencies to get information on UK citizens. | :00:55. | :00:57. | |
Disability campaigners are warning that hundreds of thousands of people | :00:57. | :01:02. | |
could lose out under a new system of benefits payments that come into | :01:02. | :01:12. | |
:01:12. | :01:14. | ||
effect today. This isn't a game! They can | :01:14. | :01:17. | |
disappear people now. You have an arrest for public safety, life in | :01:17. | :01:19. | |
prison. Yes, we're all a bunch of lizards, | :01:19. | :01:23. | |
and every landing on the moon was a fake. We'll be talking good | :01:23. | :01:25. | |
old-fashioned conspiracy theories. Are stings like this in the public | :01:25. | :01:35. | |
interest or an unfair intrusion into All that in the next hour, and with | :01:35. | :01:38. | |
us for the first half of the programme today is the former editor | :01:38. | :01:41. | |
of the Sun Newspaper, Kelvin MacKenzie. Welcome to the Daily | :01:41. | :01:44. | |
Politics. Now, first this morning, let's talk about the world, because | :01:44. | :01:47. | |
that's exactly what David Cameron is doing today - or at least Britain's | :01:47. | :01:51. | |
place in it. Here's what the Prime Minsiter had to say a little | :01:51. | :01:59. | |
earlier. The challenge before us is clear. We | :01:59. | :02:05. | |
are in a battle for Britain's future. It is a battle we've got to | :02:05. | :02:10. | |
fight on two fronts. At home, really ambitious about competing, and | :02:11. | :02:15. | |
abroad, ambitious about pursuing our national interests and standing up | :02:15. | :02:20. | |
for our values. That is the approach this government is pursuing, that is | :02:20. | :02:24. | |
what brings together our foreign and domestic agendas into a complete | :02:24. | :02:27. | |
plan for national renewal, and that is what will lead to success in the | :02:27. | :02:33. | |
modern world. Kelvin, in terms of Britain's place | :02:33. | :02:39. | |
in the world, where is it? If you look down the education league, one | :02:39. | :02:44. | |
of his sets of changes, we slipping further and further down. We are | :02:44. | :02:49. | |
just a little country doing our best. Sometimes, I think, hampered | :02:49. | :02:55. | |
by politicians rather than increasing our position. I don't | :02:55. | :02:59. | |
dislike Cameron at all, but the things he talks about are basically | :02:59. | :03:05. | |
in favour of apple pie and the like. We understand those issues. He has | :03:05. | :03:09. | |
led the Conservative Party for eight years and run the country for three | :03:09. | :03:13. | |
years, to tell us we are trying to reduce debt, increase education and | :03:13. | :03:17. | |
Europe is at the heart of our future does not seem particularly an | :03:17. | :03:22. | |
interesting thing to say. I look to my Prime Minister for leadership on | :03:22. | :03:27. | |
these issues. And should Britain be punching above its weight? Should we | :03:27. | :03:31. | |
just accept the reality of the world, Britain is a small country | :03:31. | :03:35. | |
and surely our place in it will diminish and we should accept that? | :03:35. | :03:42. | |
I totally accept that. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. I | :03:42. | :03:47. | |
suspect we should spend more time trying to make our people feel | :03:47. | :03:50. | |
happier about themselves in reduced circumstances will stop we have lost | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
an empire, that was 60 years ago. Have we found a role? Not | :03:55. | :04:00. | |
particularly. But I don't think it is helpful for Ray Prime Minister to | :04:00. | :04:04. | |
talk about that. His job is to give us leadership and potential | :04:04. | :04:10. | |
solutions. With Cameron, whether it ever comes from the heart, my sense | :04:10. | :04:15. | |
is that it is all an intellectual challenge and on that basis | :04:15. | :04:21. | |
unfortunately we now have UKIP taking 15% or 16% of what I think | :04:21. | :04:26. | |
would be natural Conservative voters under normal circumstances. In the | :04:26. | :04:30. | |
terms of the role in the world, it is time for our daily quiz. The | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
question for today is, what group is worried that they may be virtually | :04:33. | :04:36. | |
wiped out by a new bill to tackle anti-social behaviour? Soccer | :04:36. | :04:40. | |
hooligans, naturists, newspaper hacks or morris dancers? We'll | :04:40. | :04:45. | |
reveal all - that may or may not be a clue! - at the end of the show. | :04:45. | :04:48. | |
For the last week the Guardian has been publishing stories based on | :04:48. | :04:50. | |
leaked information about how US intelligence agencies have been | :04:50. | :04:57. | |
collecting personal internet data. Yesterday they released an interview | :04:57. | :04:59. | |
with the whistleblower behind the stories. He is former CIA employee | :04:59. | :05:02. | |
Edward Snowden, who has been working as a contractor for the last four | :05:02. | :05:11. | |
years for the American National Security Agency, or NSA. He told the | :05:11. | :05:17. | |
Guardian columnist Glenn Greenwald how they operated. | :05:18. | :05:22. | |
The NSA specifically targets the community occasions of everyone, it | :05:22. | :05:28. | |
ingests them by default, it analyses and measures them and stores them -- | :05:28. | :05:31. | |
targets the communications of everyone. Findlay because that is | :05:31. | :05:37. | |
the easiest, most efficient and valuable way to achieve these ends. | :05:38. | :05:44. | |
So while they may be intending to target someone associated with the | :05:44. | :05:47. | |
foreign government or a terror suspect, they are collecting your | :05:47. | :05:50. | |
communications to do so. Questions have also been raised | :05:50. | :05:52. | |
about the involvement of British intelligence agencies, in particular | :05:52. | :05:54. | |
whether GCHQ has been using intelligence gathered by the | :05:54. | :05:57. | |
Americans and whether that's legal. Foreign Secretary William Hague was | :05:57. | :06:04. | |
asked about it yesterday on the Andrew Marr Show. | :06:04. | :06:09. | |
As someone who knows GCHQ very well, and I authorise operations most days | :06:09. | :06:16. | |
of the week by GCHQ, I know how they work. The idea that in GCHQ people | :06:16. | :06:21. | |
are sitting working out how to circumvent the UK law with another | :06:21. | :06:26. | |
agency in another country is fanciful, nonsense. I think I can | :06:26. | :06:29. | |
I'm now joined by the former Security Minister Lord West, and the | :06:29. | :06:33. | |
Conservative MP Dominic Raab. Give people that assurance. Dominic | :06:34. | :06:39. | |
Raab, are you assured that those sorts of allegations fanciful? | :06:39. | :06:42. | |
think we need to hear more information from him in his | :06:42. | :06:48. | |
statement today. We understand intelligence agencies do port and | :06:48. | :06:55. | |
work for our national security. -- due important work. But we have | :06:55. | :06:58. | |
Americans involved in surveillance on British citizens that they would | :06:58. | :07:03. | |
not be able to do with their own, and the Brits taking advantage even | :07:03. | :07:07. | |
though they could not conduct that type of surveillance. We will hear | :07:08. | :07:12. | |
the options explained. One is that the Foreign Office was not aware, in | :07:12. | :07:17. | |
which case there are huge questions to answer at GCHQ, or the foreign | :07:17. | :07:22. | |
office and the oversight that that divides was nodding it through, in | :07:22. | :07:26. | |
which case there is a breakdown of trust and accountability. That is | :07:26. | :07:32. | |
the circle that needs to be squared. You believe the allegations are true | :07:32. | :07:37. | |
in the sense that GCHQ has used information gathered by Prism, the | :07:37. | :07:41. | |
US spy programme, without the consent of ministers? We need to | :07:41. | :07:47. | |
hear about that at length and in detail. I agree with the Foreign | :07:47. | :07:51. | |
Secretary, it is fanciful to think that in GCHQ they are working on | :07:52. | :07:56. | |
ways of circumventing our laws. I had three years running naval | :07:56. | :08:00. | |
intelligence, three years running defence intelligence, three years as | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
a minister for security. I know GCHQ and the people who work in those | :08:04. | :08:09. | |
agencies very well, they struggle very hard to make sure we do what is | :08:09. | :08:14. | |
legal. I would be very surprised if there is any attempt to circumvent | :08:14. | :08:19. | |
it, but I think we need to hear what the Foreign Secretary says. I agree | :08:19. | :08:26. | |
that the law is often uncertain. I have experience working with the | :08:26. | :08:27. | |
intelligence agencies over information cooperation in the | :08:27. | :08:32. | |
Foreign Office. The idea of national security and the rule of law being | :08:33. | :08:37. | |
tradable, I think, is wrong. We need a regime that the intelligence | :08:37. | :08:40. | |
agencies work too, otherwise you undermine them, making them weaker, | :08:40. | :08:46. | |
not stronger, as we saw in one particular case where the taxpayer | :08:46. | :08:50. | |
is taking a hit of millions of pounds. I think the intelligence | :08:50. | :08:59. | |
agencies need to get clear. Picking up the last point, a think it is one | :08:59. | :09:03. | |
of the reasons the Communications Data Bill is so important. | :09:03. | :09:08. | |
Snoopers' Charter, as it was renamed. I hate that name.I'm sure | :09:08. | :09:15. | |
you do. What I find very funny about this chap who calls themselves a | :09:15. | :09:19. | |
whistleblower, he is doing it in Hong Kong. Has he any idea of what | :09:19. | :09:23. | |
the Chinese do in terms of crawling all over, I bet they have been in | :09:23. | :09:27. | |
your e-mails, they will have been in there and read it. It is | :09:27. | :09:32. | |
extraordinary that we have a paranoia about our own people. | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
problem with the Snoopers' Charter is we all agree on national | :09:35. | :09:41. | |
security, GCHQ and the CIA, but we struggle on the idea that those kind | :09:41. | :09:44. | |
of intrusive powers get expanded to quangos and councils for all sorts | :09:44. | :09:53. | |
of other things. Legislation was given on terrorism which was then | :09:53. | :09:57. | |
used to follow the -- follow children home from school to check | :09:57. | :10:05. | |
the catchment area. RIPA was introduced because there was no | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
control what the weather. Sometimes it was used badly, but it was used | :10:09. | :10:18. | |
to try to get some control. Do you understand people 's fears and | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
concerns that the headline, national security, will be used to mask any | :10:22. | :10:28. | |
sort of fishing expedition into what you would call ordinary peoples | :10:28. | :10:33. | |
phone messages and e-mails? understand how people could get | :10:33. | :10:38. | |
worried. Are you saying they are unfounded? I believe our agencies | :10:38. | :10:42. | |
spend their lives trying to look after them. You can't go into any | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
mail, you have to identify a specific person, give a cause and | :10:46. | :10:51. | |
reason why things should be looked at, it has to go to the Foreign | :10:51. | :10:57. | |
Secretary who will sign you off, having had legal advice. You limit | :10:57. | :11:06. | |
the Snoopers' Charter to National Security Agency is, and of problem. | :11:06. | :11:08. | |
Before we get onto the Communications Data Bill, the | :11:08. | :11:13. | |
Snoopers' Charter, whatever you wish to call it, what would you like to | :11:13. | :11:16. | |
hear from Foreign Secretary William Hague? Are you surprised by the | :11:16. | :11:22. | |
story? Allah in some ways I am reassured, I like the idea that the | :11:22. | :11:27. | |
CIA or somebody is looking at potentially very, very nasty | :11:27. | :11:33. | |
people. It is only three weeks ago, Woolwich. Are they just potentially | :11:33. | :11:40. | |
nasty? I don't care. If they looked at me, they would probably be | :11:40. | :11:44. | |
surprised at the amount of times I go to Ladbrokes. That is not a | :11:44. | :11:50. | |
criminal offence. But most people understand who the agencies are | :11:50. | :11:54. | |
looking at and reassured that somebody is looking at them, even | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
though they may be crossing some kind of rather intellect line. I, | :11:58. | :12:05. | |
personally I'm delighted. You can't have 100% security and privacy being | :12:05. | :12:14. | |
mutually exclude -- 100% security and privacy, they are mutually | :12:14. | :12:19. | |
exclusive. And the idea of tackling loops and people looking at child | :12:19. | :12:24. | |
pornography, you could note down the IP address. If you say, no, we can't | :12:24. | :12:28. | |
possibly look at those, well then let them just get on with it because | :12:28. | :12:33. | |
there is no other way of tracking them down. As these gentlemen here | :12:33. | :12:36. | |
are saying, Dominic Raab, is it the case that people with nothing to | :12:36. | :12:43. | |
hide have nothing to fear? That is crazy, if you look at the abuse of | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
surveillance powers. I want the spooks to have all the information | :12:46. | :12:50. | |
they need to deal with national security concerns, but the | :12:50. | :12:54. | |
difference between us and Communist China is that we have a rule of law. | :12:54. | :13:02. | |
If you break that, not only do you find innovations enalapril C and our | :13:02. | :13:04. | |
daily lives, and also the government can be sued and I can be an erosion | :13:04. | :13:10. | |
of public trust. Do you think there could have been a breach by GCHQ, | :13:10. | :13:15. | |
someone working independently, on what ministers knew what was | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
happening, in terms of taking information from US spy programmes | :13:18. | :13:22. | |
or the CIA, where they may have broken the law even if Britain has | :13:22. | :13:29. | |
not? That is why I am interested in what the Foreign Secretary says. To | :13:29. | :13:32. | |
say nobody has ever done something off, there are almost 6000 people | :13:32. | :13:39. | |
working there, multiple connections, so I couldn't really say that | :13:39. | :13:45. | |
without knowing the details. But we have a rule of law which we apply. | :13:45. | :13:53. | |
There is a huge effort put in, I know because I was involved, to make | :13:53. | :13:55. | |
sure that we follow the law. I would be very surprised if there was | :13:55. | :14:03. | |
abuse. 197 intercepts, we are not talking about a huge amount. You | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
would have thought you would have had a processing issue with that | :14:07. | :14:10. | |
number of requests which ought to have been done in an acceptable | :14:10. | :14:14. | |
framework. We will hear more details from the Foreign Secretary. He | :14:14. | :14:21. | |
looked fairly confident. Do you think these revelations have brought | :14:21. | :14:26. | |
back, or could lead to, the dating communications bill being brought | :14:26. | :14:32. | |
back through the back door? -- the Communications Data Bill being | :14:32. | :14:38. | |
brought back into the back door? They are open to abuse, that is a | :14:38. | :14:41. | |
concern. And there is a big distinction between national | :14:41. | :14:45. | |
security and things used by councils and quangos. The best way to restore | :14:45. | :14:49. | |
public trust is too limited to what we want to worry about, public | :14:49. | :14:55. | |
safety. We need a new version of the bill. One committee was formed | :14:55. | :14:57. | |
specially to look at this. They gave the huge number of recommendations | :14:57. | :15:02. | |
in Parliament, they were all taken into the new draft and accepted, it | :15:02. | :15:09. | |
was pulled by the Deputy Prime Minister out of the Queen's Speech. | :15:09. | :15:13. | |
40 odd conservatives are very concerned about it. I don't think to | :15:13. | :15:18. | |
polarise it in that political way is very fair. If the Lib Dems are | :15:18. | :15:27. | |
against, I am in favour. Different phases each day but the pictures are | :15:27. | :15:32. | |
familiar. MPs and peers all recorded by newspapers in apparent acts of | :15:32. | :15:40. | |
wrongdoing, acts they deny. The latest to hit the headlines was this | :15:40. | :15:45. | |
weekend. Tim Yeo was accused of abusing his position on a committee | :15:45. | :15:51. | |
to help a private company influence Parliament. Are these stings shining | :15:51. | :15:54. | |
examples of British journalism at its best or an unfair and intrusive | :15:54. | :16:01. | |
attack on our elected representatives? | :16:01. | :16:11. | |
:16:11. | :16:11. | ||
Apology for the loss of subtitles for 64 seconds | :16:11. | :17:16. | |
You mention getting traction with Well, I am joined by Evan Harris, | :17:16. | :17:23. | |
the former lead MP and Hacked Off campaign, and Kelvin MacKenzie. Why | :17:23. | :17:27. | |
do MPs and peers fall for this every time? If anybody comes to you | :17:27. | :17:32. | |
offering money, you would think they would run a mile. I assume the only | :17:32. | :17:35. | |
ones who fought for it are the ones who are publicised. | :17:35. | :17:38. | |
I hope some people have engaged their brain and don't have the kind | :17:38. | :17:44. | |
of motives that appear to be the case from at least some of these | :17:44. | :17:47. | |
pictures. Some of them like to be flattered, I imagine. They feel they | :17:47. | :17:55. | |
are wanted. My hope is that we are seeing a selection, not everybody | :17:55. | :18:02. | |
that is attempted. In that vein, surely this is a fair way of, if you | :18:02. | :18:08. | |
like, exposing people 's greed? is right. Hacked off has never | :18:08. | :18:18. | |
:18:18. | :18:21. | ||
opposed the interest journalism using subterfuge. The editors code | :18:21. | :18:23. | |
is clear that subterfuge should not be used unless there is a public | :18:23. | :18:30. | |
interest. I think there is an interest in these issues of cash for | :18:30. | :18:36. | |
questions, coaching of witnesses by a select committee chair who has a | :18:36. | :18:39. | |
vested interest. The Vince Cable case was found not to be | :18:39. | :18:43. | |
sufficiently in the pub it in to rest, even by the PCC. Ashman | :18:43. | :18:51. | |
Republic interest. You can't just go into an MP 's surgery and record | :18:51. | :18:55. | |
everything in the hope that something comes up. It is clear in | :18:55. | :18:58. | |
the code that you have to have specific reasons. The editor has to | :18:58. | :19:02. | |
believe there is a case that they will find out. Clearly, you could | :19:02. | :19:10. | |
with Timmy -- Tim Yeo. I'm not sure I understand the comment on Vince | :19:10. | :19:17. | |
Cable. Why is that different? It is certainly not because he is my | :19:17. | :19:23. | |
colleagues. This is the PCC public view. They are run by a Conservative | :19:23. | :19:31. | |
peer. -- the PCC 's of you. Firstly, they went to every Lib and Minister | :19:31. | :19:37. | |
to hope they can find something. -- Lib Dem Minister. They did not | :19:37. | :19:42. | |
expose wrongdoing. When you do that in a surgery as opposed to a | :19:42. | :19:52. | |
:19:52. | :19:53. | ||
corporate dinner, you are pushing everything that the MP says to all | :19:53. | :19:57. | |
of his or her constituents. You have to have a high level of suspicion. | :19:57. | :20:04. | |
Aren't they all fishing expeditions, really? None of these MPs are chosen | :20:04. | :20:08. | |
for these stings because there is already a suspicion about them. It | :20:08. | :20:11. | |
is just crossing your fingers and hoping they fought for it. Let's | :20:11. | :20:21. | |
:20:21. | :20:24. | ||
come back to Vince Cable. That was a serious issue. You agree with it. I | :20:24. | :20:33. | |
did not agree with the PCC. I think if the PCC here's both sides | :20:33. | :20:37. | |
of the argument and all of the facts and they make a ruling, since we and | :20:37. | :20:42. | |
you believe in press regulation, that should, as the Telegraph did, | :20:42. | :20:47. | |
the accepted. I thought it was the wrong judgement. | :20:47. | :20:52. | |
Let's deal with the other issues that have come out. What is bizarre | :20:52. | :20:57. | |
is that we can even have this debate, in one sense, that there are | :20:57. | :21:01. | |
people out there that don't think this is right. The reality is these | :21:01. | :21:05. | |
people are our elected present stings, and how on earth are we | :21:05. | :21:15. | |
going to find out what is going on? -- elected representatives. We find | :21:15. | :21:18. | |
out the most extraordinary things are happening. One of the other | :21:18. | :21:22. | |
things that is beginning to happen, I lived in America for a while and I | :21:22. | :21:28. | |
was astonished at the reaction to Senators, who they all saw as | :21:28. | :21:35. | |
charlatans. 30 years later, I think these stings will run out of speed. | :21:35. | :21:40. | |
I think that most of the electorate thinks they are all at it anyway and | :21:40. | :21:47. | |
that newspapers and great shoes like Panorama, in the end, will not be | :21:47. | :21:50. | |
carrying out these stings because actually they find that the reader | :21:50. | :21:59. | |
or the viewer is now suffering from some kind of fatigue. I beg to | :21:59. | :22:04. | |
differ in the sense that we now finally have this suggestion of a | :22:04. | :22:06. | |
register for lobbyists. Whether it would have done anything | :22:06. | :22:10. | |
except to help MPs to check that the company approaching them is | :22:10. | :22:16. | |
bogus... But it does trigger interest. | :22:16. | :22:21. | |
I don't think it is true that the more this is exposed, the less | :22:21. | :22:27. | |
interesting it is. What is fascinating is that with all the | :22:27. | :22:33. | |
things that happened on hacking, thousands of cases, not a single one | :22:33. | :22:37. | |
by the press, was used to expose this sort of thing. This is the sort | :22:37. | :22:42. | |
of thing that is a good use of journalistic subterfuge. The tragedy | :22:42. | :22:49. | |
about hacking is, did they hack Jimmy Savile? No, they had to be | :22:49. | :22:55. | |
found out by a TV company. Did they go for any politicians? No, they | :22:55. | :23:01. | |
didn't. They use it for commercial reasons. That is why Leveson was | :23:01. | :23:10. | |
right to set up interest journalism needs to be nurtured. -- to say that | :23:10. | :23:13. | |
public interest journalism needs to be nurtured. | :23:13. | :23:19. | |
If you are a Murdoch or a rather mere, you are a massive figure. -- | :23:19. | :23:25. | |
Lord rather mere. They would not end up saying the disgusting things you | :23:25. | :23:34. | |
hear politicians say. I'm not sure. In business, do you wanted to your | :23:34. | :23:40. | |
toast on both sides? You probably do. I you trying to tell me that | :23:40. | :23:47. | |
Rupert Murdoch has not received the biggest bucketload... | :23:47. | :23:55. | |
Proprietors had a pact not to attack each other and it was exposed. | :23:55. | :24:04. | |
Newspapers do not like it up them. You did not like it. I make no | :24:04. | :24:07. | |
complaints about it. Proprietors have what we used to referred to in | :24:07. | :24:17. | |
:24:17. | :24:19. | ||
the old days as the NPP. It is powerful and corrupt. The press are | :24:19. | :24:23. | |
hypocritical. Great work is done by the Sunday Times, Telegraph and | :24:23. | :24:29. | |
Panorama in this area. But there is hypocrisy. There are some very | :24:29. | :24:33. | |
powerful people in the media who are not exposed. It took the Guardian, I | :24:33. | :24:36. | |
grant you, to do a lot of the exposure on what is happening at | :24:36. | :24:41. | |
News International. All of these newspapers claim they need the | :24:41. | :24:45. | |
freedom from Leveson in order to do this great work and they did not | :24:45. | :24:49. | |
even cover it when the Guardian were doing it. There was a silence of the | :24:49. | :24:56. | |
front pages of the newspapers. I don't know, I was not connected. | :24:56. | :25:02. | |
At the same time, I would say you cannot suggest there is not they | :25:02. | :25:08. | |
want enough media to poor ape bucket over everybody. -- a wide enough | :25:08. | :25:16. | |
media to pour a bucket over everybody. You have even got a High | :25:16. | :25:22. | |
Court judge on your side. We have got one bloke and his guide dog, | :25:22. | :25:29. | |
actually. The point is that we do rely on the | :25:29. | :25:35. | |
Panoramas, the ITV Exposes, journalism by the press, which is | :25:35. | :25:41. | |
not cheap. Even tabloids do valuable work in the average interest. We, | :25:41. | :25:48. | |
for example, want to see public interest defence is in law so that | :25:48. | :25:52. | |
if Jimmy Savile 's phone had been hacked, there will be a defence in | :25:52. | :26:02. | |
:26:02. | :26:02. | ||
law so that police would not start to arrest the journalists. | :26:02. | :26:06. | |
We want to see Leveson implemented in order to curtail the non-public | :26:06. | :26:16. | |
interest, unlawful and unethical conduct. Would you trade the public | :26:16. | :26:26. | |
defence act of 1906? So if the police call up and find that a | :26:26. | :26:31. | |
murderer has a sky sports package, and it should be exposed, and the | :26:31. | :26:36. | |
policeman asks for 500 quid to expose it, where would you be? | :26:36. | :26:43. | |
The Sun newsletter argued -- newspaper argued there should have | :26:43. | :26:50. | |
been a public interest defence. We agree, actually. | :26:50. | :26:54. | |
On that rare bit of agreement, we finish there. Do you ever get the | :26:54. | :26:59. | |
feeling you are being watched? I do. Occasionally. This weekend was | :26:59. | :27:03. | |
something of a week event for conspiracy theorists as this | :27:03. | :27:09. | |
lucrative Bilderburg group of politicians and business leaders met | :27:09. | :27:14. | |
in Watford. Among the attendants worthy Prime Minister and Lord | :27:14. | :27:19. | |
Mandelson. Yesterday, Andrew Neil attempted to discuss it with Alex | :27:19. | :27:25. | |
Jones. He got more that he bargained for. | :27:25. | :27:34. | |
Let him finish. They turned back some of my reporters. | :27:34. | :27:39. | |
Do you think the BBC is part of the Bilderburg group? | :27:39. | :27:44. | |
Eric Blair worked here, George Orwell. He said it was. You guys | :27:44. | :27:48. | |
think you can manage the whole thing. Now the information has | :27:48. | :27:54. | |
gotten too big. I have 3 million radio listeners per day. I get 50 | :27:54. | :28:02. | |
million use she views per month. I make films that can be watched | :28:02. | :28:10. | |
millions of time. All right, all right, all right. | :28:10. | :28:20. | |
:28:20. | :28:20. | ||
Ten years ago, I would have said, listen to this stuff. We would have | :28:20. | :28:25. | |
said, I would have said, that is kind of mad. It is an interesting | :28:25. | :28:34. | |
psychological phenomenon. The problem is... I am here to warn | :28:34. | :28:39. | |
people. You keep telling me to shut up. This is not a game. The US is | :28:39. | :28:44. | |
building camps. They disappear people. You have this arrest for | :28:44. | :28:48. | |
public safety, life in prison. You are the worst person I have ever | :28:48. | :28:56. | |
interviewed. David, thank you for being with us. It is 11:30am. We | :28:56. | :29:02. | |
have an idiot on the programme today. Enough. You will not stop the | :29:02. | :29:09. | |
Republic! I couldn't work out if he was | :29:09. | :29:15. | |
flossing his teeth there. It is rare for my wonderful colleague to be | :29:15. | :29:20. | |
struggling to be heard. Entertaining though that was, are we at risk from | :29:20. | :29:28. | |
a global conspiracy? There has been a lot of criticism about that. Even | :29:28. | :29:33. | |
some TV producer described it as car crash TV. It was fascinating. That | :29:33. | :29:40. | |
is great stuff. We should have more of that. There are 90 people out | :29:40. | :29:50. | |
there who are managing to get on BBC1. -- natty. It makes our | :29:50. | :29:55. | |
politicians look straightforward. But it does occasionally make | :29:55. | :30:00. | |
fascinating TV. I like it. Does it occasionally have a point? | :30:00. | :30:07. | |
You may not agree with the way it was put across, is there anything in | :30:07. | :30:16. | |
what he says about the Bilderburg group? I didn't know anything about | :30:16. | :30:20. | |
the Bilderberg group. My friend is a mortgage Roker and about five years | :30:20. | :30:25. | |
ago he said to me, they are deciding the world, the Bilderberg group -- | :30:25. | :30:30. | |
my friend is a mortgage broker. He lives in deepest Surrey and he knows | :30:30. | :30:37. | |
about the Bilderberg group. By the way, he votes for Labour. I try to | :30:37. | :30:43. | |
avoid them, to be honest with you, apart from when they are selling me | :30:43. | :30:47. | |
the Big Issue! I am sorry about that. But there is a sense of | :30:47. | :30:50. | |
conspiracy about the Bilderberg group and, in the end, they will | :30:50. | :30:55. | |
kill it. They will have to open it up to the TV cameras, otherwise | :30:55. | :31:02. | |
people. Believing that 30 or 40 people are named the world. | :31:02. | :31:06. | |
Otherwise people will start believing. But how many people out | :31:06. | :31:09. | |
there believe there are little green men just about to walk down at high | :31:09. | :31:16. | |
Street? What is your favourite conspiracy theory? In the Sunday | :31:16. | :31:22. | |
sport when it said, bus found on the moon. I feel that is what we might | :31:22. | :31:27. | |
be heading towards, someday we will land on some obscure planet and we | :31:27. | :31:33. | |
will see a number 178 bus gently driving past. You will have to eat | :31:33. | :31:41. | |
your words then! How often were you run up by conspiracy theorists when | :31:41. | :31:44. | |
you are editing a newspaper, and did you ever run any of them? We fell | :31:45. | :31:48. | |
for one elaborate hoax about somebody doing something, and if you | :31:48. | :31:53. | |
followed them. We followed some bloke as a game, I presume, all over | :31:53. | :32:01. | |
Europe, for about four months, costing is about 300,000 quid, and | :32:01. | :32:05. | |
there was no story at the end of it. Deraa nutters out there, but rather | :32:05. | :32:12. | |
clever nutters. Every so often, somebody says that the aliens have | :32:12. | :32:16. | |
started putting out their rubbish on Wednesday at number 28, we didn't do | :32:16. | :32:22. | |
that, but there are some clever people out there who are misleading. | :32:22. | :32:27. | |
Thank you for being our guest of the day, or for the first half of the | :32:27. | :32:31. | |
programme. Now it's time for a look at the week | :32:31. | :32:33. | |
ahead. As we've been hearing, this afternoon the Foreign Secretary, | :32:33. | :32:35. | |
William Hague, makes a statement to the House on GCHQs spying | :32:35. | :32:38. | |
allegations. Also today, disability living allowance is no more! It's | :32:38. | :32:40. | |
being replaced by the personal independence payment. | :32:40. | :32:44. | |
Today and tomorrow the Supreme Court will be in session to discuss votes | :32:44. | :32:46. | |
for prisoners. And they're at it again - it's the | :32:46. | :32:49. | |
Lords versus the Commons, but this time it's a tug of war. | :32:49. | :32:52. | |
On Wednesday we're hoping for good news as the ONS publishes the latest | :32:52. | :32:54. | |
unemployment statistics. And on Sunday it's the start of the | :32:54. | :33:04. | |
:33:04. | :33:10. | ||
G8 summit, which the UK will be And joining us from a cloudy College | :33:10. | :33:13. | |
Green is Isabel Hardmen from the Spectator and Helen Lewis from the | :33:13. | :33:22. | |
New Statesman. -- Isabel Hardman from the Spectator. Isabel, | :33:22. | :33:26. | |
disability campaigners are warning that hundreds of thousands could | :33:26. | :33:29. | |
lose out under renew system of benefit payments being rolled out | :33:29. | :33:34. | |
today. It is clear that a significant number of people | :33:34. | :33:36. | |
receiving disability living allowance will lose that benefit? | :33:36. | :33:41. | |
Yes. One of the things about this test is there is not a great deal of | :33:41. | :33:46. | |
public faith already cost of the test which went before for | :33:46. | :33:49. | |
incapacity benefit. The work capability assessment is another | :33:49. | :33:53. | |
government has not going that well at the moment, there is a real | :33:53. | :33:58. | |
public faith issue with these new test. Helen, ministers have said | :33:59. | :34:04. | |
that opponents of the change are being alarmist. Is that fair? | :34:04. | :34:09. | |
utterly unfair. Disabled people in this country have been hit by a | :34:09. | :34:14. | |
combination of benefit changes and it is very hard to see, even if you | :34:15. | :34:20. | |
believe each individual one is fair, the same family can be hit by five | :34:20. | :34:24. | |
or six changes. Let's look ahead and predict into the glass ball, what | :34:24. | :34:32. | |
will happen to this new change, the personal independence payment? Will | :34:32. | :34:37. | |
it be successful, Isabel? I don't think it is alarmist to scrutinise | :34:37. | :34:41. | |
policy and make sure it is working, especially when it is so important | :34:41. | :34:45. | |
and sensitive. I imagine it will have to be revised, that is the sort | :34:45. | :34:49. | |
of thing that ministers should do. If disability campaigners say | :34:49. | :34:54. | |
certain elements are not working, they should listen. Let's look at | :34:54. | :34:57. | |
Labour, they made some fairly big announcements, maybe not in | :34:57. | :35:03. | |
financial terms, but symbolically. Will it have the impact that Ed | :35:03. | :35:09. | |
Balls and Ed Miliband hoped? I think so, because it was harder to paint | :35:09. | :35:16. | |
them as a profligate party. On the Sunday Politics yesterday, Ed Balls | :35:16. | :35:20. | |
insisted that the state pension might be included within this | :35:20. | :35:23. | |
policy. That would be enormous, because traditionally David Cameron | :35:23. | :35:32. | |
has protected benefits the pensioners in a way that he has not | :35:32. | :35:36. | |
for disabled people, because the power of the pensioner vote is seen | :35:36. | :35:38. | |
as Almighty. Where does that leave the Conservatives, Isabel Hardman? | :35:38. | :35:44. | |
You seem to admit that the cap would include spending on pensions. Is it | :35:44. | :35:51. | |
realistic policy? It is an important and -- opportunity for the | :35:51. | :35:55. | |
Conservatives. If Ed Balls is looking at bringing the state | :35:55. | :35:57. | |
pension into the spending cap, it is an opportunity for conservatives to | :35:57. | :36:04. | |
argue for a welfare state which is not universal, it is a safety net. | :36:04. | :36:08. | |
It is their version of the welfare state that they can push. In 2010, | :36:08. | :36:12. | |
the Tories were protecting the Winter fuel payment and bus passes, | :36:12. | :36:14. | |
they were bounced into it by Ed Balls and his colleagues. It is an | :36:14. | :36:19. | |
opportunity for them to look at some things they have been scared off. | :36:19. | :36:24. | |
Helen, is the interesting thing about a cup that include pensions, | :36:24. | :36:28. | |
is it a bit more about whether Labour would have to raise the | :36:28. | :36:33. | |
retirement age if the cap looked like it would go against the triple | :36:33. | :36:39. | |
lock in place in terms of how pension spending will rise? Sources | :36:39. | :36:43. | |
have already said they will protect the triple lock because they know it | :36:43. | :36:46. | |
is potentially incredibly inflammatory. They could offset the | :36:46. | :36:52. | |
need to increase pension contributions with other things, but | :36:52. | :36:58. | |
the overall bill would have a cap. This is phenomenally interesting to | :36:58. | :37:04. | |
people like us, because it has seen for so long that you couldn't attack | :37:05. | :37:11. | |
or cut benefits for pensioners. Apparently there has been a letter | :37:11. | :37:17. | |
of no confidence in the Prime Minister, is this significant? | :37:17. | :37:20. | |
Conservative MPs sent those letters in, and estimates vary as to how | :37:20. | :37:26. | |
many. He will have been talking to colleagues about the fact he has | :37:26. | :37:29. | |
done this. There is a suspicion in the party that the whips have | :37:29. | :37:37. | |
briefed the depression -- the press about this. There are signs about | :37:37. | :37:42. | |
the whips office getting to grips with bad behaviour. Backbenchers | :37:42. | :37:46. | |
dark -- can't just criticise the PM. It is not acceptable, they have | :37:46. | :37:55. | |
to be seen to be clamping down on that. It is part 392 in the saga of | :37:55. | :37:58. | |
people angry about gay marriage being seen to be prioritised, people | :37:58. | :38:02. | |
angry about the EU referendum. It follows on from Lord Ashcroft, who | :38:02. | :38:07. | |
was once the big Tory donor, he did polling showing that Cameron is less | :38:07. | :38:12. | |
popular than the party. People will be saying, why do we have a leader | :38:12. | :38:21. | |
less popular than others? Are you in the tug of war? Yes -- no.Are you | :38:21. | :38:29. | |
upset? Not really my thing, videogames would be more my thing. | :38:29. | :38:32. | |
And joining us for the rest of the programme we have three of | :38:32. | :38:34. | |
Westminster's finest - the Conservative MP George Eustice. The | :38:34. | :38:37. | |
Labour MP Alison McGovern and the Liberal Democrat MP Lorely Burt. | :38:37. | :38:47. | |
Welcome to you all. Can I start with George Eustice, let's look at the | :38:47. | :38:48. | |
disability living allowance. Taney Grey Thompson's view is that the | :38:48. | :38:53. | |
government changes could result in disabled people being ghettoised and | :38:53. | :38:58. | |
excluded from society. I think that is alarmist, because we are | :38:58. | :39:02. | |
introducing an assessment which will make sure that the support given to | :39:02. | :39:07. | |
disabled people is better targeted when it is needed. We are saying you | :39:07. | :39:15. | |
have an assessment, then you can change the supporters they needed. | :39:15. | :39:19. | |
For some it might mean they have increasing support, for others it | :39:19. | :39:23. | |
might be a consistent condition and there may be somewhere the condition | :39:23. | :39:30. | |
improves and they release -- reduce it. That is sensible. Why are so | :39:30. | :39:33. | |
many disabled people worried? If people were reassured it would be | :39:33. | :39:38. | |
that fair, why are we already having leading disability campaigners | :39:38. | :39:47. | |
saying that making those sorts of comments and, as conservatives have | :39:47. | :39:49. | |
admitted, far fewer people will get the new benefits than the current | :39:49. | :39:55. | |
allowance. People just don't like change sometimes. We are looking at | :39:55. | :39:59. | |
the budget that we inherited in 2010, around �12 billion, this | :39:59. | :40:05. | |
increased exponentially since it was introduced in 1997. It will rise for | :40:05. | :40:12. | |
a while, we are talking about significant cuts. -- we are not | :40:12. | :40:17. | |
talking about significant cuts. is the estimate for the number of | :40:17. | :40:21. | |
people that will reduce, in terms of claiming, this personal independence | :40:21. | :40:27. | |
payment? I think it is in the region of around 100,000, far lower than | :40:27. | :40:31. | |
the figure of 600,000 that has been put around. 450,000 has been put | :40:31. | :40:38. | |
about. But it will be far lower than that. It is the right thing to do, | :40:38. | :40:42. | |
to have a fair benefit system you need to target the support where it | :40:42. | :40:48. | |
is needed. Some people will get an increase in support. Lorely Burt, | :40:48. | :40:54. | |
are you happy? Yes. There have been a number of scare stories, and from | :40:54. | :40:56. | |
my own constituency people with mental health problems are | :40:56. | :41:00. | |
particularly worried, because small things can really knock them off | :41:00. | :41:04. | |
balance. I think all these changes have to be fermented very | :41:04. | :41:10. | |
sensitively, but I think the idea of putting more flexibility in is a | :41:10. | :41:17. | |
good thing. So what is the problem? One of the problems I hear from | :41:17. | :41:20. | |
people affected in my constituency is the plethora of changes that | :41:20. | :41:25. | |
people are dealing with, that there is a cumulative impact of all these | :41:25. | :41:28. | |
changes coming at people with disabilities and their carers and | :41:28. | :41:33. | |
making it incredibly hard to cope at the moment. Frankly, the practice of | :41:34. | :41:38. | |
what has gone on in terms of some of these assessments, I have seen my | :41:39. | :41:42. | |
own constituents be treated not well and I don't think the government has | :41:42. | :41:50. | |
got a grip on that. What sort of experiences are they talking about? | :41:50. | :41:54. | |
Unfortunately I have had cases where there has been bad practice, people | :41:54. | :41:58. | |
's needs not being attended to what they go through the assessment. We | :41:59. | :42:01. | |
have had debates in Parliament about how the contract has been managed | :42:01. | :42:05. | |
and I don't think anybody thinks it has worked well. The government | :42:05. | :42:11. | |
really needs to get a grip. What do you mean by getting a grip? How else | :42:11. | :42:17. | |
can you facilitate the change in the system whereby, as George has said, | :42:17. | :42:21. | |
many can be targeted more effectively? I think people should | :42:21. | :42:24. | |
listen to the chair of the select committee and her contributions | :42:24. | :42:29. | |
about the manner in which this contract has been managed and the | :42:29. | :42:35. | |
lessons that have to be learned. That sounds like no change, no | :42:35. | :42:40. | |
reduction in the welfare bill? you can have the best policy | :42:40. | :42:44. | |
possible, which I don't think the government has got, but if the way | :42:44. | :42:47. | |
it is being carried out and all the evidence we have heard in | :42:47. | :42:50. | |
Parliament, the manner in which it is being carried out does not work, | :42:50. | :42:55. | |
that will mean disabled people face a plethora of challengers putting | :42:55. | :43:02. | |
them in a very difficult position. Constituencies come to us with | :43:02. | :43:06. | |
problems with ATOS. -- constituents come to us. The government is | :43:06. | :43:13. | |
reviewing the way ATOS works. They have made some important changes to | :43:13. | :43:19. | |
the way that ESA is assessed. about those people who have had a | :43:19. | :43:22. | |
humiliating time when they have been reassessed in order to see whether | :43:22. | :43:28. | |
they can claim this? First of all, the government is taking much | :43:28. | :43:35. | |
greater account of evidence from the GP at the first round, which was not | :43:35. | :43:39. | |
the case under Labour. We are also giving people the chance to have an | :43:39. | :43:43. | |
immediate second opinion before even getting to appeal, so we reduce some | :43:43. | :43:47. | |
of the bureaucratic process. There is an appeals process, and the | :43:47. | :43:50. | |
evidence shows that around about a quarter of people still have | :43:51. | :43:55. | |
appeals. We need to keep reforming and changing the ATOS assessment, | :43:55. | :44:00. | |
but we have made improvements already. Labour had quite a big week | :44:00. | :44:03. | |
in terms of making assessments around the economy and on welfare | :44:03. | :44:08. | |
spending, let's hear what the Shadow Chancellor Ed Balls said about | :44:08. | :44:12. | |
pensions. George Osborne will announce his cap in two weeks, I | :44:12. | :44:16. | |
don't know whether he will exclude or include pension spending but our | :44:16. | :44:20. | |
plan is to included. Pension spending would be included in the | :44:21. | :44:26. | |
welfare cup? That is our plan.Are you happy that pension spending, | :44:26. | :44:30. | |
which is the majority of welfare spending, would be included in a cap | :44:30. | :44:39. | |
set by Labour? If you are looking over the long term as to how you can | :44:39. | :44:42. | |
reshape social security so that it works well over the medium to | :44:42. | :44:47. | |
long-term, of course it would not make sense to exclude what is a | :44:48. | :44:54. | |
large part of it. We are committed to the triple lock. We protected | :44:54. | :44:58. | |
pensioners, there are a lot of pensioners that I know in Merseyside | :44:58. | :45:03. | |
who did really badly in the 1990s, there was real pensioner poverty. | :45:03. | :45:07. | |
With the last Labour government they were supported. If you are committed | :45:07. | :45:13. | |
to the triple lock and you are at risk of breaking the cup, what can | :45:13. | :45:16. | |
you do to reduce spending on pensions? You'd have to cut the | :45:16. | :45:25. | |
amount that people getting pension or increase the retirement age? | :45:25. | :45:31. | |
whole of the contribution that Ed Miliband and Ed Balls were making | :45:31. | :45:38. | |
was we want to look over the long term and invest in the right things. | :45:38. | :45:43. | |
You say it is hypothetical. As a real hypothetical, any party could | :45:43. | :45:48. | |
easily breach a cap. You had got to say, how would we stop any breach | :45:48. | :45:55. | |
happening? Would you increase the retirement age? Right now, we are | :45:55. | :45:59. | |
daily -- dealing with economic failure. George Osborne is taking | :45:59. | :46:04. | |
short-term decisions. It is the wrong way to look at it. We have got | :46:04. | :46:13. | |
to address the crisis now but think of the long-term. That will help us. | :46:13. | :46:17. | |
You could say it was a brave statement and a realistic one that | :46:17. | :46:24. | |
Ed Balls made by including pensions which George Osborne has not done. | :46:24. | :46:29. | |
He is being realistic when that is the bulk of spending. | :46:29. | :46:32. | |
I am shocked at this. I would think any pensioner watching this | :46:32. | :46:38. | |
programme today would never trust Labour again. The idea that there | :46:38. | :46:43. | |
hard earned money that they have put by, all their lives, should suddenly | :46:43. | :46:46. | |
be regarded as some kind of welfare benefit, I think it is just | :46:46. | :46:53. | |
stunning. From the party that brought us the promise of an end to | :46:53. | :47:02. | |
tuition fees... Let's talk about this subject in hand. For 13 years, | :47:02. | :47:05. | |
Labour failed to reinstate the earnings link. We have now got a | :47:05. | :47:12. | |
triple lock so that every pensioner will be better off. All right, so, | :47:12. | :47:22. | |
:47:22. | :47:25. | ||
what would you cut? The Conservatives wanted to make �10 | :47:25. | :47:30. | |
million of cuts to square the budget. We insisted that only �3 | :47:30. | :47:36. | |
billion of that should be in welfare spending. What we think is there has | :47:36. | :47:41. | |
got to be a balance. We have got to have a fairer society, as well as a | :47:41. | :47:47. | |
stronger economy. That is our compromise. You still have not said | :47:47. | :47:57. | |
:47:57. | :48:01. | ||
what you would cut. Nick Clegg has mentioned a few things. We can make | :48:01. | :48:06. | |
additional cuts. Really, we are wanting to go forward and grow the | :48:06. | :48:11. | |
economy. Let's talk about that 10 billion | :48:11. | :48:17. | |
extra in terms of cuts to spending. In all honesty, you can't really cut | :48:17. | :48:23. | |
any more from welfare unless you look at universal benefits. I am not | :48:23. | :48:28. | |
sure. Ideas have been floated around restricting housing benefit for the | :48:28. | :48:36. | |
under 25s, for instance. Labour have had three years of opportunistic | :48:36. | :48:43. | |
opposition, opposing everything. you agree with including pensions in | :48:43. | :48:52. | |
welfare? I do. They are talking about cutting the singlet -- single | :48:52. | :49:02. | |
being mixed... I buy energy the idea that there is an issue of fairness. | :49:02. | :49:07. | |
When people have paid into things, there should be benefits. I don't | :49:07. | :49:12. | |
understand the idea of cutting the state pension. | :49:12. | :49:19. | |
We have to move on, to immigration. A group of MPs and peers has | :49:19. | :49:22. | |
criticised new immigration rules which, it says, have led to British | :49:22. | :49:26. | |
people being separated from partners born overseas. The All-Party | :49:26. | :49:30. | |
Parliamentary Group on Migration says the government should consider | :49:30. | :49:33. | |
relaxing the regulations. Do you think they should be relaxed, | :49:33. | :49:40. | |
Alison? They should be looked at. have got a case that is disturbing | :49:40. | :49:43. | |
from our own constituency, where I have got somebody with eight | :49:43. | :49:46. | |
teaching contract starting in September and his wife has to give | :49:46. | :49:50. | |
birth overseas because the government are saying the contract | :49:50. | :49:55. | |
is not good enough. Of course, we need to protect the public purse. | :49:55. | :49:59. | |
But these rules have actually got to work. We raised concerns at the | :49:59. | :50:09. | |
:50:09. | :50:09. | ||
time. Its 18,602 high as an income threshold for somebody who wants to | :50:09. | :50:19. | |
:50:19. | :50:21. | ||
bring somebody to the UK? -- is �18,600 to high. It needs to be in | :50:21. | :50:26. | |
fermented more flexibly. -- implemented. People who have got | :50:27. | :50:30. | |
spouses who are earning money overseas, that money is not allowed | :50:30. | :50:36. | |
to be counted in. That disadvantages women in particular. Anecdotally, | :50:37. | :50:45. | |
according to members of that committee, many families have | :50:45. | :50:48. | |
British children made to grow up without a parent here. Is that | :50:48. | :50:56. | |
right? No system is going to be perfect. What we have got here is an | :50:56. | :51:00. | |
improvement on what we had. We said we would reduce immigration. If you | :51:00. | :51:05. | |
are serious about that, you have got to look at the way that you issue | :51:05. | :51:09. | |
visas for spouses. You have to look at students, for instance. This is | :51:09. | :51:13. | |
about making sure that people who come here do not end up being a | :51:13. | :51:22. | |
verdant on the taxpayer, taking benefits. -- a burden. Savings are | :51:22. | :51:27. | |
not included. Savings, property, and the spouse abroad but Mike earnings | :51:27. | :51:35. | |
are not counted, either. -- the spouse abroad 's earnings. Is that | :51:35. | :51:45. | |
:51:45. | :51:46. | ||
fair? As I said, the problem is if they have not had a job for the last | :51:46. | :51:52. | |
12 months. People might start taking short-term jobs. No system is | :51:52. | :51:56. | |
perfect. If you are serious about reducing immigration, you have got | :51:56. | :52:01. | |
to take some serious decisions. Conservatives have cut net | :52:01. | :52:08. | |
migration. Part of that is people leaving the country. Part of it is | :52:09. | :52:14. | |
students. That has an impact on universities. The system has got to | :52:14. | :52:19. | |
be looked at. Somebody could be earning lots and then lose their job | :52:19. | :52:25. | |
tomorrow. How can you make a fair system? We have got to look at it. | :52:26. | :52:28. | |
On immigration, I would also question whether the government have | :52:28. | :52:33. | |
done enough on illegal immigration and making sure that is dealt with. | :52:33. | :52:37. | |
That is the kind of problem that people really worry about. | :52:38. | :52:42. | |
We have to move on. The three MPs on our panel today all have something | :52:42. | :52:47. | |
in common. It is something they all wish was not true. No, they are not | :52:47. | :52:53. | |
the latest politicians to be caught in a lobbying steam. The problem | :52:53. | :52:56. | |
they share is that they all have small majorities in their | :52:56. | :53:00. | |
constituencies, which means that at the next election they will all be | :53:00. | :53:04. | |
working their socks off to make sure they are re-elected. Let's get out | :53:04. | :53:07. | |
our crystal ball and imagine what we will be saying in 2015. Over to | :53:07. | :53:13. | |
Giles. Welcome to election night, 2015. | :53:13. | :53:23. | |
:53:23. | :53:23. | ||
These are the marginal seats. Let's see what it would take for our panel | :53:23. | :53:30. | |
to be put out on their ears. First up, Alison McGovern. She is the | :53:30. | :53:36. | |
Labour MP for Wirral South. She has a majority of 531, which would fall | :53:36. | :53:42. | |
to the Tories on a swing of just 0.7%. This is just a bit of fun, but | :53:42. | :53:47. | |
maybe not for our MPs. Next, Lorely Burt. Her majority is just 175, | :53:47. | :53:54. | |
which needs a tiny 0.2% swing to go to the Tories and turned blue. Last | :53:54. | :54:00. | |
of all, George Eustice. His majority is the smallest of the lot, just 66 | :54:00. | :54:08. | |
votes. 0.1% would do for him, with Labour picking up the seat. It is | :54:08. | :54:13. | |
going to be a nailbiter for three of them. | :54:13. | :54:18. | |
Don't you feel sorry for the three of them? Particularly you, George, | :54:18. | :54:27. | |
with the smallest majority. Feeling good about job prospects for 2015? | :54:27. | :54:32. | |
The truth is, there are two ways to think about it. You can either fret | :54:32. | :54:42. | |
:54:42. | :54:42. | ||
about what your opponent is saying, or you can say, let's try to achieve | :54:43. | :54:48. | |
something in the constituency and nationally. I have done the latter. | :54:48. | :54:53. | |
It means taking some positions that people don't agree with. You just | :54:53. | :55:00. | |
have to do that. You are a brave man. | :55:00. | :55:04. | |
It is important to have something you can point to as a record. | :55:04. | :55:08. | |
Are you jealous, Lorely Burt, of your colleagues with big | :55:08. | :55:18. | |
:55:18. | :55:19. | ||
majorities? Yes and no. I do think there was a whopping majority in | :55:19. | :55:23. | |
2005, and it was a Conservative majority, which I managed to | :55:23. | :55:27. | |
overturn. Despite the fact the Conservatives threw everything at | :55:27. | :55:31. | |
the seat that they could in 2010, they just failed to take the seat | :55:31. | :55:40. | |
again. You are confident for 2015? Confident is an overstatement. Once | :55:40. | :55:48. | |
we get into a seat, the Lib Dems at work like crazy. The locals | :55:48. | :55:54. | |
appreciate that. Are you saying that Labour does not | :55:54. | :55:59. | |
work as hard? Do you work harder in the constituency because you have | :55:59. | :56:08. | |
got a majority? I work really hard. But before, as | :56:08. | :56:15. | |
an MP, I was a councillor in Harriet Harman 's seat. I think she worried | :56:15. | :56:24. | |
hard about her constituents' views. If you have got a big majority, | :56:24. | :56:30. | |
there must be some complacency. it is about respect for the voters. | :56:30. | :56:34. | |
You should always get out there and listen to people. I don't think many | :56:34. | :56:37. | |
MPs who think you should not do that these days. You have got to listen | :56:37. | :56:46. | |
to people, or you can do a good job. -- you can't do. | :56:46. | :56:52. | |
Do you think the campaign will get dirty? I think the Tories thought | :56:52. | :56:59. | |
they were home and save in 2010. I snuck under the radar and got in. | :56:59. | :57:02. | |
You never know what is going to happen. I am very cautious about | :57:02. | :57:10. | |
elections. Hopefully everybody would work harder. What about UKIP, George | :57:10. | :57:15. | |
Eustice? You say you are not going to blow in the wind depending on | :57:15. | :57:21. | |
pressure. How do you deal with the threat? | :57:21. | :57:26. | |
I have always campaigned on the European issue. I even stood for | :57:26. | :57:31. | |
UKIP in 1999. I am an authentic Euro-sceptic, although not of the | :57:31. | :57:37. | |
UKIP can't any more. We have pledged a referendum on membership of the EU | :57:37. | :57:46. | |
and we are going to negotiate. That is a small part of our agenda. There | :57:46. | :57:53. | |
is a whole swathe of things around welfare reform, school reform, | :57:53. | :57:57. | |
sorting out the economy, which are nothing to do with Europe. It is not | :57:57. | :58:04. | |
as simple as your chart showed. All three parties have a chance. In the | :58:04. | :58:08. | |
last two times that it has changed hands, it has gone from the | :58:08. | :58:12. | |
candidate in third place going to first place. All kinds of dynamics | :58:12. | :58:18. | |
happen in my constituency. Do any of you have another career | :58:18. | :58:24. | |
lined up, just in case? What may she think we have got time for anything | :58:24. | :58:34. | |
:58:34. | :58:34. | ||
like that? -- what makes you think. The answer to our quiz... | :58:34. | :58:43. |