Browse content similar to 09/07/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Daily Politics where we can bring you news of a huge political gamble. | :00:40. | :00:44. | |
The Labour leader Ed Miliband is the one who has rolled the dice and | :00:44. | :00:47. | |
crossed his fingers. He wants fundamental reforms to his party's | :00:47. | :00:49. | |
relations with the trade unions, which could cost them a fortune. | :00:50. | :00:55. | |
We'll bring you all the details. Could we see slums like these back | :00:55. | :00:59. | |
in Britain? We'll meet the MP who says we need new laws to stop | :00:59. | :01:03. | |
landlords exploiting their tenants. When does information become | :01:03. | :01:07. | |
propaganda? We'll take a look at how governments try and influence how we | :01:07. | :01:12. | |
think. And we'll take a look at Margaret | :01:12. | :01:15. | |
Thatcher's influence on the modern Tory party, as seen by a man who | :01:15. | :01:17. | |
occasionally got a bit closer than he realised! | :01:17. | :01:27. | |
:01:27. | :01:28. | ||
It's here. This is the microphone. All that in the next hour. | :01:28. | :01:33. | |
And with us for the whole programme today is the man you saw in that | :01:33. | :01:35. | |
famous clip in Paris there, the BBC's former chief political | :01:35. | :01:42. | |
correspondent John Sergeant. Welcome to the programme. You were | :01:42. | :01:47. | |
absorbed in the Westminster village for 20 years, how has it changed? | :01:47. | :01:51. | |
think many of the old troops have gone, many people thought they knew | :01:51. | :01:56. | |
what they were doing. In recent times, people have realised how | :01:56. | :02:03. | |
little the parties can do about foreign affairs and so on. When I | :02:03. | :02:13. | |
:02:13. | :02:37. | ||
was here, particularly the Thatcher period, politicians knew I could | :02:37. | :02:42. | |
argue maybe politicians never did have the power they said they had, | :02:42. | :02:47. | |
but now it is more transparent. It is more transparent. | :02:47. | :02:52. | |
Because of the expenses scandal, people do not think, you are an MP | :02:52. | :02:57. | |
and important. People think you are on the fiddle. That is an | :02:57. | :03:03. | |
extraordinary weight to carry around if you are like most politicians | :03:03. | :03:08. | |
decent, concerned, trying to make a difference. That is a reputation | :03:08. | :03:12. | |
which is difficult to shake, from people who are confused about | :03:12. | :03:17. | |
politics because so many issues are highly technical. | :03:17. | :03:23. | |
Also, less ideological. Is that a good thing? There is quite a lot of | :03:23. | :03:30. | |
consensus around some of the key issues in a way there wasn't in the | :03:30. | :03:33. | |
1970s. You could certainly argue it is good | :03:33. | :03:38. | |
for the country. The idea that politics is exciting, that is good | :03:38. | :03:44. | |
for political correspondents, but it is good where people think it is not | :03:44. | :03:49. | |
their concern and they have to get on with their business. When | :03:49. | :03:54. | |
politics is really exciting, what is usually happening, it is in the | :03:54. | :03:59. | |
middle of a war. Do you miss it? Only when I hear brilliant | :03:59. | :04:05. | |
colleagues being too clever. would they be? There are times when | :04:05. | :04:09. | |
I think some of my lovely, talented successors could say, we are not | :04:09. | :04:16. | |
sure. Add in it they don't know. Or to point out what the problems are | :04:16. | :04:21. | |
of knowing. Not so much knowing the problems, but how you cannot do | :04:21. | :04:25. | |
this, you don't know that. I often felt that was the key to the | :04:26. | :04:35. | |
:04:36. | :04:40. | ||
audience. So, if at various points my brave, wonderful, marvellous | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
successors could admit they don't know, I think that would help the | :04:44. | :04:47. | |
audience. A bit more human, maybe. Right now, the Labour leader Ed | :04:47. | :04:50. | |
Miliband is delivering a speech which sets out his vision for a | :04:50. | :04:53. | |
reformed relationship between the Labour Party and the trade unions. | :04:53. | :04:55. | |
The move follows the allegations that the Unite union had improperly | :04:56. | :04:59. | |
attempted to fix the outcome of the selection of the Labour candidate in | :04:59. | :05:01. | |
Falkirk, and suggestions that their broader influence had become too | :05:01. | :05:07. | |
great. There are 15 trade unions affiliated to the Labour Party. | :05:07. | :05:10. | |
Between them, they have three million members, more than half of | :05:10. | :05:15. | |
the total number of trade unionists in the country. Under the current | :05:15. | :05:18. | |
rules, members of affiliated unions pay a political levy as part of | :05:18. | :05:21. | |
their union subs, some of which is passed on to the Labour Party. If | :05:22. | :05:25. | |
individuals don't want to pay the levy, they can choose to opt out, | :05:25. | :05:28. | |
but few people do. Under the new rules being proposed by Ed Miliband, | :05:28. | :05:34. | |
union members would opt in to supporting Labour. Or, as he puts it | :05:34. | :05:37. | |
in his speech, "They would actively choose to be individually affiliated | :05:37. | :05:44. | |
members of the Labour Party". That could mean a change in the way that | :05:44. | :05:46. | |
union votes are treated in leadership elections, and at party | :05:46. | :05:53. | |
conferences. One union leader, Billy Hayes, has described the proposed | :05:53. | :05:58. | |
reforms as an "attack on the trade union movement". Former Labour MP | :05:58. | :06:01. | |
George Galloway tweeted that Ed Miliband had cut the unions adrift, | :06:01. | :06:11. | |
:06:11. | :06:19. | ||
100 years ago, the trade unions found the Labour Party and, decade | :06:19. | :06:25. | |
by decade, from Neil Kinnock to John Smith to Tony Blair, we have been | :06:25. | :06:30. | |
changing that relationship. We must do so again in this generation. To | :06:30. | :06:35. | |
build a new politics, to do more, not less, to make individual trade | :06:35. | :06:41. | |
union members are part of our party. 3 million shop workers, | :06:41. | :06:46. | |
nurses, engineers, construction workers, people in the public and | :06:46. | :06:51. | |
private sector, they should be the biggest asset that any political | :06:51. | :06:58. | |
party in Britain has. But, today, they are not. The problem is that | :06:59. | :07:02. | |
they are not properly part of all that we do. Let us be frank about | :07:02. | :07:07. | |
this. The vast majority are not members of local parties, not active | :07:07. | :07:11. | |
in our campaigns, and we have to turn that around. Working people | :07:11. | :07:18. | |
should be at the heart of our party. That is why our relationship | :07:18. | :07:22. | |
with individual trade union members has got to change. | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
Our political correspondent Ben Wright can tell us more about what's | :07:25. | :07:33. | |
in Miliband's speech. He is making this speech because of | :07:33. | :07:37. | |
the shenanigans in Falkirk. He attacked what happened that as the | :07:37. | :07:42. | |
very worst sort of machine politics that needs to be put to bed. This is | :07:42. | :07:47. | |
his response, the charge that Ed Miliband is far too close to the | :07:47. | :07:53. | |
trades unions, which is why he is suggesting this. The biggest change | :07:53. | :07:56. | |
to the labour - trade union relationship since the introduction | :07:56. | :08:01. | |
of one member, one vote, 20 years ago. He says, trade unions should | :08:01. | :08:08. | |
only be paying affiliation fees to the Labour Party if they choose to | :08:08. | :08:14. | |
do so and opt in. That is a massive change if he can get it through. | :08:14. | :08:18. | |
Something we shall see during the day. It will be greeted with fierce | :08:18. | :08:22. | |
opposition from trade union leaders. It is about Ed Miliband | :08:22. | :08:28. | |
saying to his party and the country that this is an issue he is prepared | :08:28. | :08:33. | |
to grasp, and he is not in the pocket of the unions. But he is | :08:33. | :08:38. | |
making a wider point of the politics he wants to see, a political | :08:38. | :08:45. | |
challenge to the other parties. He has said he wants to see a cap on | :08:45. | :08:51. | |
how much MPs can earn through outside jobs. And he has said there | :08:51. | :08:56. | |
needs to be a start to party political talks on overhauling party | :08:56. | :09:01. | |
political funding which has run into so much trouble. Agreement has never | :09:02. | :09:07. | |
been reached between the Lib Dems, Tories and Labour. Ed Miliband says | :09:07. | :09:13. | |
that needs to be restarted. With me now is Gerry Morrissey, | :09:13. | :09:15. | |
General Secretary of BECTU, a Labour-affiliated trade union | :09:15. | :09:23. | |
representing the media and entertainment industries. | :09:23. | :09:27. | |
We had Ed Miliband saying the relationship between Labour and the | :09:27. | :09:32. | |
trade unions had to change. Do you agree that this is an attack on the | :09:32. | :09:37. | |
trade union movement? I wouldn't go that far but I think | :09:37. | :09:42. | |
it is an attack on stopping unions from being able to represent the | :09:42. | :09:44. | |
interests of their members on the political level which we have done | :09:44. | :09:51. | |
for many years, and democratically taken on board our members and their | :09:51. | :10:00. | |
views. It is difficult to see how we can do that in the future. Do you | :10:00. | :10:05. | |
see this as a break with the linked with unions? | :10:05. | :10:10. | |
I do not think it is. The Labour party needs a trade union movement, | :10:10. | :10:19. | |
the Labour -- the union movement created the Labour Party. | :10:19. | :10:25. | |
If he is insisting union members will now have two opt in actively, | :10:25. | :10:30. | |
in order for part of their subs to go via a political fund to the | :10:30. | :10:35. | |
Labour Party, will it work? I do not think so, he is doing a disservice | :10:35. | :10:41. | |
to the Labour Party. When unions are taking forward advice to party | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
conferences, we will not speak for as many people. The trade union | :10:46. | :10:51. | |
movement consults its members a lot more on those policy matters, issues | :10:51. | :10:57. | |
affecting them in the workplace, the minimum wage, the future of the BBC | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
licence fee, anybody inside the Labour Party does. If we don't | :11:00. | :11:05. | |
consult them and bring forward their views, there is no way the Labour | :11:05. | :11:13. | |
Party will hear these views from individual members, many are | :11:13. | :11:14. | |
unfortunately cynical about politicians. | :11:14. | :11:17. | |
Ed Miliband says there is union members will affiliate directly to | :11:17. | :11:23. | |
the Labour Party, he will increase the membership of the Labour Party. | :11:23. | :11:28. | |
There will be no middle man of the unions. History does not support | :11:28. | :11:34. | |
that. There was an increase up to the 1997 elections. Since then, | :11:34. | :11:40. | |
there has been a decline in membership. Ed Miliband has made a | :11:40. | :11:44. | |
knee jerk reaction speech as a result of Falkirk. We don't know the | :11:44. | :11:50. | |
full details at this stage. Did you see it as a dark period in | :11:50. | :11:57. | |
politics, what happened in Falkirk? It is not acceptable. Our union | :11:57. | :12:00. | |
prides itself on consulting members, this should not be allowed to | :12:00. | :12:08. | |
happen. Ed Miliband started this by asking Peter Hain at re-founding | :12:08. | :12:12. | |
Labour and one proposal was anybody could come along and nominate people | :12:12. | :12:19. | |
to join the party for �1. Not just unions but all avenues. That damages | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
democracy. Why should millions of union members | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
who don't even vote for neighbour and up supporting the party | :12:27. | :12:33. | |
financially because that is the default position -- don't even vote | :12:33. | :12:38. | |
for Labour. Because these are on issues in the workplace which need | :12:38. | :12:46. | |
to be taken forward at a political level. Why can't they opt in? The | :12:46. | :12:49. | |
reality of the situation is general elections, the majority of people | :12:49. | :12:53. | |
choose not to participate. Joining us now from College Green | :12:53. | :12:56. | |
are Kevin Maguire from The Daily Mirror, and The Independent on | :12:56. | :13:06. | |
Sunday's John Rentoul. Wellcome. How big is this move by Ed | :13:06. | :13:11. | |
Miliband? It has created a big fight in this party, he is panicked over | :13:11. | :13:20. | |
Paul Kirk -- Falkirk. This is a crisis for the Labour Party. He has | :13:20. | :13:24. | |
sketched out his details on the back of an envelope, he has not thought | :13:24. | :13:31. | |
through how he will deliver it. The unions may not back him. People are | :13:32. | :13:36. | |
talking about living standards, job insecurity, he has decided to put | :13:36. | :13:43. | |
the spotlight on his own party 's links with the unions. David Cameron | :13:43. | :13:51. | |
must think it will be some everyday. On that basis, it is a huge gamble | :13:51. | :13:54. | |
and a big calculation by Ed Miliband, does it bring him any | :13:54. | :14:00. | |
political capital, not just in Westminster but out in the country, | :14:00. | :14:03. | |
people view this as him standing up to the unions? | :14:04. | :14:08. | |
Yes, it is the right thing to do. Kevin is right that the timing of | :14:08. | :14:16. | |
this is terrible. Ed Miliband was elected against the wishes of party | :14:16. | :14:21. | |
members and MPs by a trade union machine operation, and he had to | :14:21. | :14:25. | |
demonstrate within months he was independent of the unions. He has | :14:25. | :14:32. | |
waited until now to do it. It is too late. The problem is it now looks | :14:32. | :14:36. | |
like a follower and not a leader acting out a weakness because there | :14:36. | :14:44. | |
has been a problem in a constituency in Scotland. Does it look weaker? He | :14:44. | :14:50. | |
did move to take action in Falkirk. He has now come up with what can be | :14:50. | :15:00. | |
:15:00. | :15:02. | ||
seen as a massive move to change the relationship with the unions. | :15:02. | :15:08. | |
back a year, he was saying, this question of opting in is irrelevant. | :15:08. | :15:16. | |
He has changed. He should have done this in 2010, not 2013. He has the | :15:16. | :15:22. | |
wrong issue at the wrong time. It will also raise questions about the | :15:22. | :15:27. | |
legitimacy of his own election as leader. If he is saying people opted | :15:27. | :15:35. | |
out is the wrong way, that part of the electoral college, they voted | :15:35. | :15:45. | |
:15:45. | :16:02. | ||
for him. He made a complete problem not lie kit. If they say no, it | :16:02. | :16:12. | |
:16:12. | :16:14. | ||
Len McCluskey came very close this morning. It is the right thing for | :16:14. | :16:23. | |
him to do. It is progress. This definitely is what Tony Blair | :16:23. | :16:28. | |
should have done when he was leader. It is a very welcome development. | :16:28. | :16:33. | |
The problem is, he is trying to presented as a bold and active | :16:33. | :16:42. | |
leadership. He has been forced into doing it at the last minute. Let's | :16:42. | :16:47. | |
say this does work. Doesn't he then get the prize of putting the | :16:47. | :16:53. | |
problem in David Cameron scored, over things like party funding? If | :16:53. | :17:00. | |
it appeals more broadly to Middle England, it will work for him. | :17:00. | :17:05. | |
always valued people doing the right thing rather than the bold | :17:05. | :17:09. | |
thing. I actually think the Labour Party gets a lot from trade union | :17:09. | :17:14. | |
links. It gets working people represented and keeps it feet on | :17:14. | :17:19. | |
the ground. The truth is that David Cameron will be laughing all away. | :17:19. | :17:23. | |
If you are trying to get into some negotiations about finance and | :17:23. | :17:30. | |
parties and saying that David Cameron gets too much from the city, | :17:30. | :17:37. | |
the point is you do not play it or you'll cards and this game early. | :17:37. | :17:43. | |
He will get all of the flak. It may rumble on for months, maybe even | :17:43. | :17:48. | |
years. He will get a lot of stick and I think he will get very little | :17:48. | :17:54. | |
credit. He is sane Labour's link to the trade unions is a problem. -- | :17:54. | :17:59. | |
he is saying. People do not see it as a problem. They are talking | :17:59. | :18:08. | |
about other issues - big issues. He is talking to his own party when he | :18:08. | :18:13. | |
should be talking to the electorate. With us now is the vice chairman of | :18:13. | :18:15. | |
the Labour Party, Michael Dugher, and the chairman of the | :18:15. | :18:23. | |
Conservative Party, Grant Shapps. Kevin says it is a disaster and | :18:23. | :18:27. | |
you're causing civil war within your own party. I love Kevin | :18:27. | :18:33. | |
Maguire. He did say we should have done this two-and-a-half years ago. | :18:33. | :18:43. | |
:18:43. | :18:44. | ||
We played all Arab hearts too early. The truth is, -- hour cards too | :18:44. | :18:49. | |
early. The truth is, Ed Miliband has made big changes to how the | :18:49. | :18:55. | |
party does its business. We have associated members - people who | :18:55. | :19:01. | |
support as a want to play a part in our politics. It is about opening | :19:01. | :19:07. | |
up politics to the public. These are big changes. Today is a step | :19:07. | :19:12. | |
change. We cannot change Britain unless we change our cells. That is | :19:12. | :19:18. | |
uncomfortable and difficult for people. -- change ourselves. This | :19:18. | :19:24. | |
is the bold thing and the right thing to do. Why didn't you do it | :19:24. | :19:29. | |
three years ago? Why are you doing it now? I suggest the only reason | :19:29. | :19:33. | |
is because of allegations over impropriety in the Falkirk | :19:33. | :19:39. | |
selection. It is knee-jerk reaction from Ed Miliband. In terms of | :19:39. | :19:48. | |
sections, we have dealt with the Falkirk issue. -- selections. What | :19:48. | :19:53. | |
happened in Falkirk, I have not seen abuses like that in 22 years | :19:53. | :19:57. | |
of Labour Party membership. If you look at selections in reality, we | :19:58. | :20:03. | |
have been selecting people from the armed forces, shop workers. I'm | :20:03. | :20:08. | |
proud of the candidates we have got. Why are you making these changes? | :20:08. | :20:15. | |
The changes on selections in terms of having the code of conduct, I | :20:15. | :20:19. | |
admit that Falkirk has played a part in focusing the mind about | :20:19. | :20:26. | |
taking tough action on this. As for membership, we have taught before | :20:26. | :20:31. | |
about this. We have 20,000 registered supporters. It is a | :20:31. | :20:37. | |
continuation of the big changes in the party. It is a step change but | :20:37. | :20:44. | |
it is the right one. This is strong leadership, not weak leadership. | :20:44. | :20:50. | |
You have tried to distract about some of the vested interests in the | :20:50. | :20:57. | |
Tory Party. There will be a break in terms of the financial link. You | :20:57. | :21:03. | |
must be delighted. I can see you do not believe a word of it yourself. | :21:03. | :21:08. | |
This is an unmitigated disaster. Which is the disaster? You have | :21:08. | :21:14. | |
been asking for years for that link in affiliation for people who want | :21:14. | :21:19. | |
to be part of the Union, for that link to be broken and fees going to | :21:19. | :21:28. | |
be Labour Party? It is about a weak leader of reacting to events. The | :21:28. | :21:34. | |
Unite union published a paper which was withdrawn which named 40 other | :21:34. | :21:38. | |
constituencies. The question for you and your leader, who is weak | :21:38. | :21:46. | |
and owned by union barons is, when will he bring the other 40 in? To | :21:46. | :21:52. | |
answer your point about opting in and opting out - opting out is when | :21:52. | :22:00. | |
a tick a box to not automatically affiliate to the Labour Party. | :22:00. | :22:04. | |
Opting in would be more fair. We would have backed him all away in | :22:04. | :22:09. | |
doing that. We will help to legislate to make that happen. The | :22:09. | :22:13. | |
union barons who owned Ed Miliband have already made it clear they are | :22:13. | :22:19. | |
not going to do this. This is not going to happen. He ran through | :22:19. | :22:22. | |
wish list of things, including a contract of agreement between | :22:22. | :22:28. | |
candidates. That agreement is already there. They have shot your | :22:28. | :22:33. | |
Fox in terms of affiliation. That link provides �8 million a year to | :22:33. | :22:37. | |
the Labour Party. That will now be severed the stock that is the | :22:37. | :22:46. | |
proposal. You are pleased about that. -- that is severed. Lots of | :22:46. | :22:51. | |
members of Unite and others who work hard, Conservative members and | :22:51. | :22:53. | |
supporters, they will have the right to support whichever party | :22:53. | :22:59. | |
they want to through the union levy. It is welcome but he cannot deliver | :22:59. | :23:06. | |
it. What happens if Len McCluskey et Alf say, we are not doing it. | :23:06. | :23:15. | |
Every indication shows they will not do it. Every poll says they | :23:15. | :23:19. | |
will not do it for us stop their members will get a much stronger | :23:19. | :23:25. | |
boys. At the moment we have a relationship with people who fund | :23:25. | :23:31. | |
the Labour Party - people who drive the buses and work the factory full. | :23:31. | :23:38. | |
-- ate much stronger voice. They should have the strongest voice of | :23:38. | :23:42. | |
all. At the moment, we have a relationship with them. They do not | :23:43. | :23:46. | |
nearly played enough of a contribution as individuals. It is | :23:46. | :23:51. | |
about strengthening the voice of people in politics. I would rather | :23:51. | :23:57. | |
be funded by them. We will come to them in a minute. How many will | :23:57. | :24:02. | |
octane? We have announced today there are 2.7 million of them at | :24:02. | :24:11. | |
the moment. -- opt in. We're the only party that has grown in | :24:11. | :24:16. | |
membership. There is huge potential to recruit people through | :24:16. | :24:21. | |
affiliation. Let's talk to those people and say, do you want a | :24:21. | :24:28. | |
director and individual voice? this make Ed Miliband look like a | :24:28. | :24:33. | |
strong or weak leader? In my view he could not run away from this. He | :24:33. | :24:38. | |
could see this issue was going to grind on. It is not the perfect | :24:38. | :24:46. | |
place to stand. Not, can we have a nice option and a horrible option? | :24:46. | :24:56. | |
There are two horrible options. He knows it will be difficult. He | :24:56. | :25:00. | |
realises he cannot go into the next election as the person who ran away | :25:00. | :25:06. | |
from this issue. The issue is too big. The Conservatives have their | :25:06. | :25:14. | |
tails up. It is an open goal. Ed Miliband muss stop that. He was | :25:14. | :25:20. | |
trapped in this brave position. -- must stop. If he wins, it will help | :25:20. | :25:26. | |
him enormously. If he loses, it will be very difficult. He does not | :25:26. | :25:29. | |
often that I agree with Kevin Maguire but he was spot on. If Ed | :25:29. | :25:33. | |
Miliband wants a serious conversation about party funding, | :25:33. | :25:40. | |
we are up for that. And to agree to a cap on individual donations. -- | :25:40. | :25:45. | |
and you agree. The problem he needs to ghetto there is he is owned by | :25:45. | :25:52. | |
the unions because he was put in by them. -- he needs to get over. No | :25:52. | :25:58. | |
other party in this country is funded in a way where everything | :25:58. | :26:02. | |
about that party is bought. A union leader is worried about what Ed | :26:02. | :26:06. | |
Miliband is proposing because of the reasons you have put forward. | :26:06. | :26:09. | |
That will all melt away and you will be left with the spotlight | :26:09. | :26:16. | |
being turned on donations on your party. I prepared to catch them at | :26:16. | :26:24. | |
�10,000? We have been talking about it for years. Will you say here and | :26:24. | :26:29. | |
now, we will be agreed and signed up to individual donations being | :26:29. | :26:34. | |
capped at �10,000? We have always been serious about having party | :26:34. | :26:38. | |
funding negotiations. We're very happy to see that resolved. It | :26:38. | :26:43. | |
needs to include everyone and has to include the unions. We can have | :26:43. | :26:48. | |
a situation where they find their way around it by turning individual | :26:48. | :26:51. | |
donations or some other approach which allows them to circumvent the | :26:51. | :26:55. | |
rules. What happens with the Labour Party is they own the leader, run | :26:55. | :27:00. | |
the policies and a place candidates as well. None of our donors have | :27:00. | :27:06. | |
any of those powers. We must move on to the other issue which was | :27:06. | :27:12. | |
brought up by Ed Miliband. millionaire owners of the | :27:12. | :27:16. | |
Conservative Party to bankroll the Conservative Party. They get wined | :27:16. | :27:20. | |
and dined at Chequers and in Downing Street. The Prime Minister | :27:20. | :27:26. | |
has never dealt with those allegations. York chief fund raiser | :27:26. | :27:31. | |
and treasurer resigned in disgrace, I seem to recall, over those | :27:31. | :27:34. | |
allegations of wining and dining high-value donors at Downing Street | :27:34. | :27:39. | |
and Chequers. You have never dealt with that. You walked away from the | :27:39. | :27:44. | |
all party talks. You do not want her to be a cap or take money out | :27:44. | :27:50. | |
of politics. Ed Miliband was not in agreement with the doctor in | :27:50. | :27:59. | |
principle. This issue is important. -- with the bopped in principle. | :27:59. | :28:04. | |
has said we will look at this in the policy review. The public is | :28:04. | :28:09. | |
sick to death with politics in the moment. They think we are all the | :28:09. | :28:12. | |
same and politicians liars are hundreds of miles away from their | :28:12. | :28:19. | |
own. All of us need to address that. -- and politicians lives. We are | :28:19. | :28:23. | |
not saying anything against people at the moment. Is it right that you | :28:23. | :28:31. | |
have people who have a job which is not being an MP but they do lots of | :28:31. | :28:37. | |
other things? In America, they had a percentage cap on the mat of | :28:37. | :28:44. | |
additional income you can earn. I think we need new rules and the new | :28:44. | :28:49. | |
limits. There are dozens and dozens of Conservative MPs, absolutely | :28:49. | :28:54. | |
coining it in from large companies. The public has had enough and did | :28:54. | :29:03. | |
all will have to go in the next Parliament. -- and it all. I do not | :29:03. | :29:07. | |
think to million dollar campaigns is the right way. Ed Miliband is in | :29:07. | :29:11. | |
enormous trouble. He is a weak leader under the grip of unions. He | :29:11. | :29:15. | |
is standing up and making a speech when he tries to deflect attention | :29:15. | :29:20. | |
in all sorts of other areas. He is trying to turn this into original | :29:20. | :29:25. | |
party funding discussion. That is not the issue. The issue is rigging | :29:25. | :29:31. | |
elections for candidates. We have talked about that. Should MPs have | :29:31. | :29:36. | |
second jobs? Should they be paid lots of money? Would you legislate | :29:36. | :29:43. | |
stop that happening? Hold on a second. Today, the row is about | :29:43. | :29:51. | |
elections being raped. He has raters the issue. -- being raped. | :29:51. | :29:59. | |
He has raised the issue. MPs should concentrate on constituents and | :29:59. | :30:03. | |
constituencies. It is not the issue for today at will. What do you | :30:03. | :30:09. | |
think about the idea of second jobs? -- at all. The public has a | :30:09. | :30:13. | |
right to know what is going on. What are they doing in the morning | :30:13. | :30:19. | |
when they should be doing something house? The way the club has | :30:19. | :30:24. | |
operated at Westminster for so long is not acceptable. An American | :30:24. | :30:28. | |
presidential candidate has to immediately publish his income tax | :30:28. | :30:32. | |
returns. You think, how extraordinary? I'm sure people will | :30:32. | :30:36. | |
look back on this period and say, they could earn any money and do | :30:36. | :30:40. | |
other things and set up a little office inside their offers to do | :30:40. | :30:46. | |
this and do that. The whole thing is... Back game is over in the | :30:46. | :30:51. | |
public mind. That is because of MP's reputation being tarnished by | :30:51. | :30:56. | |
expenses. Do not be surprised. The stoppage and say, across the board, | :30:56. | :31:06. | |
:31:06. | :31:11. | ||
we're going to be clean. -- you house builders hailed a recovery in | :31:11. | :31:14. | |
the housing market. Good news, you might think. But, as the Labour MP | :31:14. | :31:16. | |
for Tottenham David Lammy explains, the long-term increase in property | :31:16. | :31:19. | |
prices, particularly in London, hasn't benefited everyone. He is | :31:19. | :31:21. | |
worried that a shortage of affordable and social housing is | :31:21. | :31:24. | |
pushing families into the private rental sector, with some worrying | :31:24. | :31:34. | |
:31:34. | :31:48. | ||
I am worried that parts of the private rental sector of forcing | :31:48. | :31:52. | |
people back into poverty and squalor. | :31:52. | :31:58. | |
Each week when my constituents come to see me at my advice surgery, the | :31:58. | :32:03. | |
majority come about housing. House prices in London are so high, and | :32:03. | :32:09. | |
waiting lists, council waiting lists, so long. Most people are in | :32:09. | :32:19. | |
:32:19. | :32:22. | ||
the private rented sector not out of They come and see me because they | :32:22. | :32:27. | |
are powerless. They can be evicted after six months. Their rent can go | :32:27. | :32:35. | |
up after just two months. The average rent is eight times the pace | :32:35. | :32:39. | |
of earnings. Because of this, they are too scared to ask their landlord | :32:39. | :32:47. | |
for improvements which are often damp and decrepit housing. These | :32:47. | :32:50. | |
factors make it particularly tough for families. Not only is the | :32:50. | :32:55. | |
frequent upheaval difficult with evictions but it is very hard to | :32:55. | :33:00. | |
plan for the future. I have got one constituent who has a son who has | :33:00. | :33:04. | |
been moved three times from local schools in just the last few years. | :33:04. | :33:14. | |
:33:14. | :33:20. | ||
Imagine the impact on that young So, we need more homes like these. | :33:20. | :33:25. | |
That will take years to have an effect. In the meantime, tenants | :33:25. | :33:30. | |
need security and stability. They need a minimum five-year term for a | :33:30. | :33:36. | |
contract, with rents increasing no more than the price of inflation. | :33:36. | :33:39. | |
Landlords who offer these fair rent contract should be rewarded through | :33:39. | :33:44. | |
the tax system. This would offer stability to the private rented | :33:44. | :33:51. | |
sector, and offer rewards to landlords who do the right thing. | :33:51. | :33:54. | |
David Lammy is here now, alongside Carolyn Uphill, chair of the | :33:54. | :34:01. | |
National Landlords Association. Will you concede some tenants, | :34:01. | :34:06. | |
particularly families on low incomes, are getting a raw deal? | :34:06. | :34:10. | |
I wouldn't say there are some subtle stance is where tenants haven't got | :34:10. | :34:15. | |
the best accommodation. But the vast majority are happy in their private | :34:15. | :34:21. | |
rented accommodation. It is simply not the case that the bad landlord | :34:21. | :34:29. | |
who are in -- are in the majority. Are you saying that the markets | :34:29. | :34:36. | |
particularly in London has pushed rents up? Why is it affecting | :34:36. | :34:40. | |
particularly low income families? Is it just because they are not able to | :34:40. | :34:44. | |
afford that increasing rent and there isn't enough social housing, | :34:44. | :34:52. | |
rather than bad landlords? We have assured short-term tenancies of just | :34:52. | :34:57. | |
six months. They can put your rent up after two | :34:57. | :35:02. | |
months. The people gaining are letting agents. There is a fee | :35:02. | :35:11. | |
charge, they gain. At the same time, we are spending as taxpayers �23.8 | :35:11. | :35:14. | |
billion on housing benefit to these landlords, when a third of | :35:14. | :35:20. | |
properties in London do not meet the decent standard we set for local | :35:20. | :35:24. | |
authorities. That is a lot of properties. Even if | :35:24. | :35:28. | |
the rents are being paid, the standard is not reflected in the | :35:28. | :35:33. | |
properties. Let us be clear, I represent the | :35:33. | :35:37. | |
National landlords Association and we help our members improve | :35:37. | :35:41. | |
standards of their properties so they can run their businesses more | :35:41. | :35:47. | |
successfully, have happy tenants who want to stay. On that point, | :35:47. | :35:52. | |
although it is possible at the end of six months, for landlords to ask | :35:52. | :35:57. | |
tenants to move on, in general, they do not. We survey tenants as well | :35:57. | :36:02. | |
and they say half of tenants have been in their property for four | :36:02. | :36:07. | |
years or more. Every time a landlord changes a tenant it costs money in | :36:07. | :36:13. | |
agency fees, marketing costs. If there is a good, reliable tenant | :36:13. | :36:17. | |
looking after the property, it does not suit their business to move that | :36:17. | :36:24. | |
Tennant on. What would be the motivation? | :36:24. | :36:29. | |
What I am proposing is to end this and move to a situation where you | :36:29. | :36:36. | |
have tenancies for five years, index link rises to inflation. This is the | :36:36. | :36:42. | |
system in Germany. I do not think you should be punitive and demand | :36:42. | :36:46. | |
landlords have a five-year tenancy but you want stability of the | :36:46. | :36:50. | |
landlords so they know how much they will get over five years, and | :36:50. | :36:57. | |
stability for tenants. Some of what people are living in is not | :36:57. | :37:02. | |
acceptable in a developed country. Would that work having a five-year | :37:02. | :37:08. | |
contract, some sort of security and a fair rent contract, whereby rent | :37:08. | :37:10. | |
will not increase much more than the rate of inflation? | :37:10. | :37:17. | |
Be careful interfering with a successful market. If the private | :37:17. | :37:24. | |
rental sector was not providing nearly 8% -- 18% of the homes in | :37:24. | :37:29. | |
this country, many would not have a roof over their heads. We are | :37:29. | :37:37. | |
possibly touching on rent controls which did not work. Landlords do not | :37:37. | :37:42. | |
have the income to invest in their property. David wants better | :37:42. | :37:46. | |
standards, he will not get that if you restrict income the landlord | :37:46. | :37:50. | |
needs. They are running a business in the | :37:50. | :37:57. | |
end. Of course, but we do not need to spend �23 billion in housing | :37:57. | :38:03. | |
benefit to landlords, picking up the cost for free school meals. We need | :38:03. | :38:09. | |
stability in the market. There are landlords at the bottom end for not | :38:09. | :38:15. | |
serving the public or their tenants. The problem is there is not enough | :38:15. | :38:22. | |
social housing. Labour did not build many social housing properties. This | :38:22. | :38:27. | |
isn't the fault of private landlords, there will always be | :38:27. | :38:36. | |
rogue landlords and substandard properties. That is clearly wrong. | :38:36. | :38:41. | |
It's really the fault of not having affordable social housing. | :38:42. | :38:46. | |
We had a balance after the war where a third were living in private | :38:46. | :38:53. | |
rented, third in social housing, a third could buy. Now the prospect of | :38:53. | :38:57. | |
buying in London is remote. Social housing has not been built and | :38:57. | :39:03. | |
labour must take its fair blame. It has decreased under the coalition. | :39:03. | :39:08. | |
In the meantime we have to deal with the private rented sector. | :39:08. | :39:13. | |
Yes, otherwise people will be living in squalid conditions. Isn't there a | :39:13. | :39:18. | |
case of regulation to prevent that happening. If there is such evidence | :39:18. | :39:21. | |
to say people are paying extortionate rents for substandard | :39:21. | :39:27. | |
accommodation, surely there is a case for regulation? There are | :39:27. | :39:32. | |
already regulations to deal with substandard accommodation. | :39:32. | :39:38. | |
Councils have duties and obligations and the ability to act. We would | :39:38. | :39:43. | |
fully support that. Rogue landlords do not do favours to the | :39:43. | :39:47. | |
professional landlords providing good quality accommodation. This | :39:47. | :39:51. | |
conversation is about London. We have housing throughout the | :39:51. | :39:59. | |
country, and in areas around the country there is no pressure on | :39:59. | :40:04. | |
rents, rents have gone down in some areas. We must not legislate for a | :40:04. | :40:10. | |
particular problem in a particular area, a capital city, which will | :40:10. | :40:17. | |
always be under housing pressure. Does London distort the market? | :40:18. | :40:23. | |
This is an issue in London and the South East and major conurbations. | :40:23. | :40:30. | |
London is a massive market, jobs are in London. The population of London | :40:30. | :40:36. | |
is set to grow to 10 million by 2031. We have to deal with this | :40:36. | :40:42. | |
problem otherwise we will see more Our guest of the day is the former | :40:42. | :40:45. | |
BBC chief political correspondent John Sergeant, who spent more than | :40:45. | :40:48. | |
20 years on the political beat, before stepping back to spend more | :40:48. | :40:51. | |
time on the dance floor. He started here at Westminster in 1981, with | :40:51. | :40:56. | |
Mrs Thatcher the figure who dominated British politics. He | :40:56. | :40:59. | |
watched her take on the unions, go to war in the Falklands, and | :40:59. | :41:02. | |
negotiate the end of the Cold War with the Russians. Most famously of | :41:02. | :41:06. | |
all, he was handbagged on the steps of a European summit meeting in | :41:06. | :41:09. | |
Paris, on the night she found out the result of Michael Heseltine's | :41:09. | :41:19. | |
:41:19. | :41:20. | ||
attempt to depose her as leader of the party. | :41:20. | :41:25. | |
It is known as a doorstep in the trade, and they don't get better or | :41:25. | :41:30. | |
more memorable than this. The Prime Minister is behind you, | :41:30. | :41:36. | |
John. Mrs Thatcher, could I ask you to comment. Good evening. This is | :41:36. | :41:43. | |
the microphone. One of their most memorable moments. Yet this is -- | :41:43. | :41:49. | |
this was the highlight of 20 years covering Westminster. A period | :41:49. | :41:57. | |
defined by a woman who defined post war politics. And John was there. | :41:57. | :42:01. | |
There are few commentators better placed to analyse the Thatcher | :42:01. | :42:11. | |
:42:11. | :42:12. | ||
legacy. John Sergeant had a ringside seat here. In his book, he argues | :42:12. | :42:16. | |
the woman remains a Tory icon actually inflicted serious damage on | :42:16. | :42:22. | |
the party she did so much to shape. Some will disagree. Others will | :42:22. | :42:29. | |
conquer. There are few journalists Joining me now is Norman Fowler who | :42:29. | :42:31. | |
served in Margaret Thatcher's Cabinet for her whole time in | :42:31. | :42:39. | |
office, from 1979 to 1990. Welcome to the programme. Your | :42:39. | :42:46. | |
thesis, John Sergeant, in what way did she damage the party? I wrote | :42:46. | :42:53. | |
that ten years ago. Can you remember! The problem was that, | :42:54. | :42:59. | |
obviously, she was very hurt by the way she felt she had been stabbed in | :42:59. | :43:04. | |
the back. So, the sense in which it was her party, not the Socialists | :43:04. | :43:09. | |
who had removed her, but throwing party. That was a major factor in | :43:09. | :43:16. | |
deciding how she would respond when she into opposition. In fact, poor | :43:16. | :43:20. | |
old John Major had to put up with the fact there were two leaders of | :43:20. | :43:24. | |
the Conservative party, the people who thought she was wonderful and | :43:24. | :43:29. | |
shouldn't have been removed. John Major was trying to be the Prime | :43:29. | :43:33. | |
Minister. That caused a terrific tension, particularly over Europe. | :43:33. | :43:39. | |
There were plenty of Conservatives who wanted to support Margaret | :43:39. | :43:43. | |
Thatcher. And others who said, you should be supporting our new leader | :43:43. | :43:48. | |
John Major. That pretty well finished John Major particularly | :43:48. | :43:53. | |
because one of the first things that happened was Britain was ejected | :43:53. | :43:56. | |
from the exchange rate mechanism. The whole idea of Britain being at | :43:56. | :43:59. | |
the heart of Europe under a Conservative leader was not | :44:00. | :44:04. | |
possible. While this was going on, Margaret Thatcher, she didn't mean | :44:04. | :44:10. | |
to really most of the time. Didn't she? She did and she didn't, it was | :44:11. | :44:15. | |
a difficult problem. She did not want to undermine the person she had | :44:15. | :44:20. | |
brought in as leader. She was behind John Major. And she wanted to behave | :44:20. | :44:26. | |
while. But the other part of her was, these dreadful people, can't | :44:26. | :44:32. | |
they see over Europe that I'm right? John Major tried to work out the | :44:32. | :44:34. | |
perfect position so that the Conservatives would be united on | :44:34. | :44:39. | |
this if only he could find what our position was. It was impossible for | :44:39. | :44:46. | |
him. David Cameron is amazingly in the same position. Can't we agree | :44:46. | :44:50. | |
this or that? Large numbers of people in the Conservative party | :44:50. | :44:54. | |
wanted Britain strong and independent and to help with the EU. | :44:54. | :44:58. | |
I personally do not think that is possible. Did she undermine her | :44:58. | :45:05. | |
successors? Certainly with John Major. He was chairman until 1994. | :45:05. | :45:12. | |
She made life much more difficult. The trouble was, the basic trouble | :45:12. | :45:17. | |
was she was displaced not in a general election but in an internal | :45:17. | :45:23. | |
election. Had she been displaced in a general election, we wouldn't have | :45:23. | :45:28. | |
had the problems. I remember going up to Margaret Thatcher just before | :45:28. | :45:32. | |
she, just after she had made the announcement she was leaving the | :45:32. | :45:37. | |
Commons. She was on autopilot. People were saying to her in the | :45:37. | :45:44. | |
division lobby. Basically her reply was, the fight must go on. She | :45:44. | :45:54. | |
:45:54. | :46:03. | ||
Was her argument misrepresented? think she had steadily become more | :46:03. | :46:08. | |
Euro-sceptic. She was opposed to Maastricht. The significant thing | :46:08. | :46:15. | |
as for the party - the Parliamentary Party - is that she | :46:15. | :46:22. | |
was a great leader. She put some real spine into those people who | :46:22. | :46:27. | |
were opposing John Major on Maastricht. It could not have been | :46:27. | :46:31. | |
Frankie from that point of view more helpful. The other point was, | :46:31. | :46:40. | |
like lots of us can she felt she was right. When she felt that, John | :46:40. | :46:44. | |
Major and Jeffrey Howe had all been wrong over these issues - I think | :46:44. | :46:49. | |
that really got into her. I have been removed as party leader and I | :46:49. | :46:56. | |
was right and I have won three- party elections and they are all | :46:56. | :46:59. | |
dreadful. How did she feel about Iain Duncan-Smith and William | :46:59. | :47:07. | |
Hague? She felt she would back any one he was not Ken Clarke. They | :47:07. | :47:17. | |
:47:17. | :47:19. | ||
lost rather fantastically, didn't they? -- who was not. William Hague | :47:19. | :47:25. | |
is a great politician, as we see now. It was too early for him to | :47:25. | :47:32. | |
become leader of the Tory Party. The fact was that she was not | :47:32. | :47:35. | |
prepared to see a euro enthusiasts becoming leader of the party when | :47:35. | :47:40. | |
it was the obvious thing for the public. If she had not interfered | :47:40. | :47:45. | |
and overshadowed what came after us would it have changed anything? | :47:45. | :47:50. | |
They she had been able to indicate she understood the problem, instead | :47:50. | :47:54. | |
of thinking if she were there or her side could win, that would be | :47:55. | :47:59. | |
straightforward, that has been a problem about Europe in my view all | :47:59. | :48:04. | |
along. If there had been a straightforward position. Of course | :48:04. | :48:09. | |
people drift into fantasy politics full debate thing we do not need | :48:09. | :48:15. | |
the European Union. These are very complicated arrangements. -- | :48:15. | :48:21. | |
fantasy politics. They think. For someone like me, it is not serious | :48:21. | :48:26. | |
politics. It is crazy behaviour. If she could indicate there might be a | :48:26. | :48:30. | |
few problems about leading European Union... Sh she would have done had | :48:30. | :48:35. | |
she had been in office. -- she would have done. She would have | :48:35. | :48:38. | |
worked out what the right moves would have been calls that she was | :48:38. | :48:47. | |
very cautious. She did not leap into the dark. -- would have been. | :48:47. | :48:50. | |
Ann Widdecombe was sitting here not long ago and she said she wished | :48:50. | :48:56. | |
the Tories had lost the 92 election. That was quite a fashionable view | :48:56. | :49:02. | |
at the time. Even now she says that the stuff I had a heard her say it | :49:02. | :49:08. | |
before. The theory is you lose the election and bounce back in 97. -- | :49:08. | :49:14. | |
even now she says that. I was with John Major to rout the 92 campaign. | :49:14. | :49:20. | |
It was very much his victory. It was entirely down to John Major. | :49:20. | :49:27. | |
Only in the sense he was not Margaret Thatcher! That was | :49:27. | :49:31. | |
extremely important that he was not her. The public actually took to | :49:31. | :49:37. | |
John Major and they did not take to Neil Kinnock. It was a personal | :49:37. | :49:40. | |
victory. His tragedy was he got more votes than Margaret Thatcher | :49:40. | :49:46. | |
but the tragedy was, because of the divisions in constituencies, he did | :49:47. | :49:51. | |
not have the votes in the House. When you are up to Maastricht, a | :49:51. | :49:57. | |
small number of people - which it was at that stage - could hold sway. | :49:57. | :50:05. | |
These things she did leave a fatal legacy? Fatal - I think is probably | :50:05. | :50:13. | |
overstating it. Her legacy... In that respect, in other ways it was | :50:13. | :50:19. | |
tremendous. The ticket ready for the Conservative Party. In that | :50:19. | :50:26. | |
point of view, she should have done what previous leaders have done. -- | :50:26. | :50:30. | |
particularly for the Conservative Party. Eden did not come back and | :50:30. | :50:36. | |
make it difficult. Until we got Ted Heath. That again is the irony. She | :50:36. | :50:40. | |
had Ted Heath proving over her shoulder and being as awkward as he | :50:40. | :50:47. | |
possibly could be. He had not won three elections. The she did the | :50:47. | :50:51. | |
same. Oh well, it is all history. Now, is all political propaganda a | :50:51. | :50:55. | |
bad thing? When we think of propaganda many of us may think of | :50:55. | :50:58. | |
the techniques used by the Nazi Party in Germany, or perhaps the | :50:58. | :51:00. | |
spin tactics used by our political parties today. But what about | :51:00. | :51:03. | |
governments who use TV campaigns to encourage us to be careful when | :51:03. | :51:08. | |
crossing the road or warn us about the dangers of contracting HIV? | :51:08. | :51:11. | |
Elizabeth Glinka has been down to a special exhibition at the British | :51:11. | :51:21. | |
:51:21. | :51:29. | ||
Politics is about ideas, about how things should be able to be if you | :51:29. | :51:33. | |
want people to vote for you, Folly you into battle or eat their Greens, | :51:33. | :51:37. | |
you must convince them York ideas are best. Propaganda has been a | :51:37. | :51:44. | |
weapon of choice for thousands of years. -- your ideas. This exhibit | :51:45. | :51:51. | |
dates back to 290 BC. The king of Thrace was trying to link himself | :51:51. | :51:56. | |
to Alexander the Great - his predecessor. Power and persuasion | :51:56. | :52:01. | |
brings together examples of state propaganda from around the world. | :52:01. | :52:06. | |
lots of people when they come to an exhibition like this, they think | :52:06. | :52:10. | |
propaganda is about misleading and lies for stoppages what bad people | :52:10. | :52:15. | |
do. When we were planning the exhibition, we took more ethically | :52:15. | :52:20. | |
neutral approach. We defined propaganda as any form of | :52:20. | :52:25. | |
communication which is designed to influence, persuade all reinforce | :52:25. | :52:35. | |
:52:35. | :52:39. | ||
Some of the most recognisable images on show casts long shadows. | :52:39. | :52:45. | |
Propaganda gave it a bad name. should be concerned about who is | :52:45. | :52:51. | |
trying to influence us. Are they appealing to a set of evidence we | :52:51. | :52:56. | |
can see and check? Is it more about emotion and playing on existing | :52:56. | :53:02. | |
prejudices? Not everything has such a sinister air. Propaganda has also | :53:02. | :53:07. | |
been used to try to save us from ourselves and even improve our | :53:07. | :53:12. | |
health. There is now a danger that has become a threat to us all. The | :53:12. | :53:16. | |
exhibition includes the 1980s eights television advert, thought | :53:16. | :53:22. | |
to be the most successful public health television film ever made. - | :53:22. | :53:28. | |
- AIDS. The 1990s saw the emergence of propaganda as upstart little | :53:28. | :53:35. | |
brother - spin. Alastair Campbell says the internet has been a game | :53:35. | :53:40. | |
changer. Public opinion used to be based on media opinion. It is not | :53:41. | :53:45. | |
the same thing. That is why I have embraced it. It gives the public | :53:45. | :53:51. | |
more power. His propaganda plane the same old tricks? The challenge | :53:51. | :54:01. | |
is always have to go unnoticed. -- always to go unnoticed. It goes | :54:01. | :54:06. | |
through mass print media, into cinema, radio, television and your | :54:06. | :54:11. | |
homes. It provides a natural home for propaganda to work and get | :54:11. | :54:15. | |
messages and influence through unnoticed. Her while the message of | :54:15. | :54:18. | |
the exhibition is she should question what you are told, it is | :54:18. | :54:26. | |
also perhaps that some propaganda can be good for you. -- you should | :54:26. | :54:29. | |
question. Norman Fowler was the Secretary of State for Health at | :54:29. | :54:32. | |
the time of that memorable AIDs campaign of the late 1980s that we | :54:32. | :54:37. | |
saw featured in that film and he's still with us here in the studio. | :54:37. | :54:42. | |
How do you feel about that campaign - being put in the same exhibition | :54:42. | :54:46. | |
of some of the wartime Nazi propaganda that which used in the | :54:46. | :54:51. | |
1930s? It does not have any relevance whatsoever to that and | :54:51. | :54:55. | |
Goebbels and that sort of stuff. The other thing which came out in | :54:55. | :55:00. | |
that film, the I did it should not be noticed. My whole idea was that | :55:00. | :55:07. | |
it should be noticed. -- the idea. With HIV and AIDS Macro, there were | :55:07. | :55:11. | |
no drugs and no vaccines. Or you could do was warned the public of | :55:11. | :55:21. | |
:55:21. | :55:22. | ||
the dangers. Did it work?Yes, it did. HIV went down and general | :55:22. | :55:28. | |
sexual disease went down. Then, of course, the Government being | :55:28. | :55:33. | |
wattages, we'll move on a meat go off the air for the next 20 years. | :55:33. | :55:42. | |
-- being what it is, we all move for off the air. Would you count | :55:42. | :55:47. | |
that campaign as propaganda? would not. The point about | :55:47. | :55:51. | |
propaganda, it is all very well to say they are ethically neutral, | :55:51. | :55:56. | |
propaganda is evil. It is completely cynical. If you were Dr | :55:56. | :56:01. | |
Goebbels, you are not worried about the truth of the Jews, you're | :56:01. | :56:07. | |
thinking, how can we hit them? The essence of propaganda, if you | :56:07. | :56:13. | |
repeat a light enough, people believe it. That is propaganda. | :56:13. | :56:17. | |
Government information - how bad is HIV going to be - is a different | :56:17. | :56:21. | |
sort. I should not say this in public that I was asked to be | :56:21. | :56:27. | |
interviewed for that and I refused. People do not see how people like | :56:28. | :56:32. | |
me and Norman, who has spent a whole lives in this area of | :56:32. | :56:36. | |
government information and reporting, we have not set out | :56:36. | :56:40. | |
cynically to light to the British public. Is there a fine line | :56:40. | :56:44. | |
between what some people would regard as public information and it | :56:44. | :56:54. | |
:56:54. | :56:56. | ||
could be quite forceful and Spain - which grew out of the Tony Blair | :56:56. | :57:03. | |
leadership? We saw Alastair Campbell being interviewed. Is | :57:03. | :57:10. | |
there a worry it is presented as government information but it is a | :57:10. | :57:15. | |
viewpoint. You need to be aware of that. Since the years of Margaret | :57:15. | :57:19. | |
Thatcher, governments have feared the bit that way. If you take | :57:19. | :57:22. | |
something like AIDS and the difference between matter what went | :57:22. | :57:27. | |
before, we were about saving lives - attempting to save lives. That | :57:27. | :57:30. | |
was the whole purpose of what we were trying to do. Some people | :57:30. | :57:35. | |
might have said it was about scaremongering. It was hard hitting | :57:35. | :57:40. | |
- doing the opposite of what the chap was saying on the fells. | :57:40. | :57:47. | |
Trying to get the notice of the public. -- on the film. Isn't | :57:47. | :57:55. | |
government spin the propaganda of our modern age? Kids Spain, of | :57:55. | :58:02. | |
course, does not live. -- good spin. It admits, it puts forward | :58:02. | :58:09. | |
arguments about put encounter our arguments. It does all those things. | :58:09. | :58:14. | |
Under Adolf Hitler, the Government set up cynically to deceive the | :58:14. | :58:20. | |
public. You may say, it is the same. It is quite different. The best | :58:20. | :58:25. | |
spin doctors, they very seldom live. That is incompetent spin-doctoring | :58:25. | :58:31. | |
of the worst sort. You are found out. You really are in trouble. | :58:31. | :58:35. | |
What went wrong in Iraq was there were no weapons of mass destruction. | :58:35. | :58:41. | |
They thought there were. The idea that they knew there were not | :58:41. | :58:45. | |
weapons but they but said there were. That is not what happened. | :58:45. | :58:52. |