09/10/2013 Daily Politics


09/10/2013

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The parties have reshuffled their teams, and the battle lines are

:00:44.:00:50.

beginning to take shape. The government says it plans to limit

:00:50.:00:54.

the increase in rail fares for hard-pressed commuters. It's the

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latest salvo in this hard-fought battle over who can do most to

:00:57.:01:02.

improve living standards. It is likely to be the divided line

:01:02.:01:07.

between David and Ed Miliband when they go toe to toe for the first

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bout of prime ministers questions since conference. Has the government

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border scheme been an expensive farce? The Chief Inspector of

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Borders seems to think so. We get reaction from the Home Office

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minister. Happy birthday, David Cameron. The Prime Minister is 47

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today but it doesn't mean he gets special favours when it comes to

:01:29.:01:33.

getting his hands on a Daily Politics mug. Stay tuned to see if

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you can. All that in the next 90 minutes of pure television gold. It

:01:40.:01:46.

is worth the licence fee in its own right as the director-general told

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me last week. Join us for this televisual extravaganza, including

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two of Westminster 's hottest screen stars. Damian Green, from the Home

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Office, and Shadow Justice Secretary Siddique Khan. They both kept their

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jobs in the recent reshuffle probably because the leaders

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couldn't find their telephone numbers! First we will talk about

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the British borders, and more specifically, the lack of electronic

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borders. A report today says the multi-million pound E borders system

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designed to prevent suspected criminals and terrorists travelling

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into the UK has a serious failings. The independent chief us of Borders

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found that fewer than two thirds of passenger journeys were actually

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monsters -- monitored. We found only 65% of advanced passenger

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information was on the system. We found that the alerts had been

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duplicating effort at the border and they have not been applied

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consistency between Heathrow and they have not been applied

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other ports. So the interception of people who has been -- have been

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wanted, these people have been intercepted at the gates of Heathrow

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but not at other ports. We found up to 650,000 alerts for individuals

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who might be smuggling drugs or tobacco into the country but they

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have not been acted upon or deleted without action. We also found that

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people who were deported or excluded from Britain have not been prevented

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from boarding flights to come back to Britain, which was one of the

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main benefit of the original plan. So it has generally been a failure?

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Not for the police, because they have benefited enormously. But in

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terms of the original business benefits, I have identified that

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only one out of eight has been delivered. The Immigration Minister,

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Mark Harper, says the figure that you have used in terms of the system

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is up to 78% rather than the 65% you have found. What do you say to that?

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Well, this inspection finished in the spring and summer of this year

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and it was that figure at the time of the inspection, and that is the

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data we got from the Home Office at that time. The bottom line is, for

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this to be an effective system, we need a very high percentage of data

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to be on the system. It was intended that this would be achieved by now,

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but what was not, or underestimated, is the fact that EU

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law prevents a lot of information about passengers on EU flights being

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put on the database. That is still a legal barrier to the completion of

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the date on the system. John Vine, thank you. That is what the

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inspector has to say. Damian Green, an expensive farce? It was chaos

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when we took over in 2010 and we reset the contract so the snapshot

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shows that we are probably five or six years further back than we ought

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to be, and I think the interesting figures there were about six months

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ago it was only 65% of journeys being counted, and now we have got

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it up to 78%, and that is 90% of flights. When we came in in May 2010

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it was meant to be 90% by 2010, and we discovered that it just wasn't

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working at all. You are getting the blame. This is month 40 as a

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coalition government, and you sacked the contractors in 2010, your first

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act, so in the fourth year 600,000 records have been deleted and in

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2012 they were deleted, you were running the show them. Did you leave

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a Horlicks behind? That is what Damian says. I am asking you. You

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are saying now he's been in charge this time it should be up and

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running. But do you accept that? Do you accept you left a mess behind?

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The idea was to export the borders to have good information of

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passengers coming in and going out. to have good information of

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That only came about in 2003 and towards the end of the time in

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That only came about in 2003 and government we had it up and running

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and had invested in it. Remember that John Reid said the Home Office

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was not fit for purpose in 2005. We set up the UK BAe and we are doing

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really good work on the borders. These guys come and get rid of the

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contractors that sued the government for half £1 billion. In the fourth

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contractors that sued the government year, there is a failure, and to

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contractors that sued the government blame us. It is a joke. What it is,

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it is a system that was getting better and it was a shambles and is

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now up to 90% of flights. John Vine is right that there are legal

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problems which were not recognised back ten years ago when it was set

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up, that there are theologians in the European Commission means that

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free movement of Borders means you cannot even check people, that and

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-- and we disagree with it. What we have done is we have got 78%

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coverage. He says 65%. Yes, that he says that the six months ago, and in

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that six months we have improved, and that is what we have done over

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three and a half years. It is interesting, almost the worst kind

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of party politics, that you leave behind a shambles, you blame it all

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on the shambles, then you say it has been put right, and then you say you

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haven't done it fast enough after you took seven years to create a

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shambles for both of you. Not one person who had previously been

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excluded or deported from the UK, and therefore you might think would

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be on a watchlist they've previously been excluded, has been prevented

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from getting on a plane. Not through this, but there are the watch lists

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available in the indexing system. What is the point of this if it

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can't do it? If you've been excluded or deported from the UK you would

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think on any system you would show up? The purpose of this has been

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extremely useful, particularly for policing. We have arrested 10,000

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people at the border in the past three years. The border is a

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significant tripwire that stops dangerous criminal people coming

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into this country, and that, I think, is generally attributable to

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the system. The purpose is advanced information. You have to make sure

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in advance of stopping them getting on a plane, and you fail. Lipstick

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with the Home Office. A Home Office campaign emerging illegal immigrants

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to go home has been banned for using misleading arrest statistics. --

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let's stick with the Home Office. It involved poster vans driving through

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six London boroughs in July and drew over 200 complaints to the

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advertising standards authority, but the agency cleared the campaign of

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being offensive or irresponsible. Was it a mistake, Damian? We are

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evaluating the full effect, but it wasn't a mistake. It lets people

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know that the traditional view is if you have been here illegally nothing

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will happen to you, and that is now not the case. We are now actually

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tracking people down who have no right to be here and removing them.

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So you are comfortable with the idea of vans coming round with inaccurate

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information, saying there was 106 arrests in your area, which is not

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true in every area. I take the point from the ASA, but I'm glad they said

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it was not irresponsible or offensive. It is hard-hitting. But

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this is the kind of thing that helps restore com -- public confidence

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that things are happening on the immigration system that did not

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happen in the past. Does it restore confidence, or do you think they are

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offensive? We had a report saying the board is not working, a big

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failure, and this kind of gimmick to restore confidence. It was cleared

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of being offensive though. Has been banned. But not being offensive, for

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inaccuracy. The reality is it been banned. I am pleased the ASA banned

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it. Good. Should be banned? We are all bold enough to remember when the

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words go home were used in certain parts of our city -- old enough. I

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had a conversation with my mum and my brother and we still remember

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what that phrase meant in the 1970s and 80s. It might not be unlawful,

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but a government in touch with ordinary people, especially in those

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six boroughs, we all understand we want illegal immigration to come

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down and we think that those who are here unlawfully should go back to

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the country of origin, but saying go home in the six most ethnically

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diverse boroughs in London shows you do not understand what people feel

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in the city. The fact you have that figure, 106 arrests, which means

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those of us who you think should have confidence in you won't because

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you have a misleading figure. Many people think immigration is out of

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control and the people are here illegally in the UK should be going.

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But picking up on the point that it does evoke a time that many people

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in those borrowers thought had gone. I don't think it does. In the top

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left-hand corner is, in the UK illegally. People can quite make the

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difference between people who are here illegally or legally. One of

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the things about coalition government is we are two parties and

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we don't agree on everything. Those things we don't agree on, we can put

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to the electorate. So you are proud of that? Are you proud of that

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poster? I think it is a useful contribution to letting people know

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that unlike under your gum, things are happening. Diane Abbott, who

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just left the Labour front bench, she said Labour was not tough

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enough, no loud voices of protest from Labour, it was the Liberal

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Democrats. I was on the Andrew Marr show that Sunday protesting loudly.

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I didn't see it. I will not be lectured by you in your party about

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racism, Damian. Are you saying the party is racist? I'm not saying the

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party 's races. Diameter -- Diane Abbott said you are too strong on

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immigration and you are moving to the right. Is she the Labour Party

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or are you the Labour Party? We will find out what she said when we get

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her on the TV at some time. Now, the government has fired the latest

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salvo in the cost of living debate that looks set to be a least one of

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the major battle grounds in the next election. The Transport Secretary

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has announced this morning a plan to cap increases in rail fares next

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year as part of a series of announcements that the government

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will make in the run-up to the Autumn statement, coming, we think,

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in early December of this year but we don't know yet. It is all

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designed to show us humble voters that politicians really get it when

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it comes to paying the bills. David Cameron even acknowledge this week

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that Ed Miliband had struck a chord with his pledge to freeze energy

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prices. So, who has the more appealing message? I couldn't

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possibly comment, but I'll try. All of the main parties have been trying

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to persuade voters that they are going to do the most to tackle the

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cost of living crisis and reduce household bills. Today it is the

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conservatives turn and the Transport Secretary, Patrick McLaughlin,

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announces a cap on rail fare increases. Some rail fares could

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have increased by 9.1% in 2014, but the government will limit the

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maximum increase to 6.1%. This is what the Transport Secretary had to

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say this morning. What we are announcing is a reduction on the

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amount which the train operators can put up the cost of rail tickets, so

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for all commuters it will mean that they will be much more assured as to

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what the cost will be and there will not be the variance in rail fare

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increases. Quite often there has been a lot of criticism that we said

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that the increase would be plus 1% and then they have seen the rise of

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10%. We have reduced the Flex to make it a lot clearer over what

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people will pay. The government hopes to build on announcements like

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George Osborne's conference pledge to try to find the cash to freeze

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fuel duty until 2015. They argue that the best way to tackle the cost

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of living is through growth and have been buoyed by new figures out from

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the IMF which suggest that the UK economic recovery is gaining pace.

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But wage increases are still failing to keep pace with inflation, and

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Labour are trying to capture the public mood with their populist

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promise to freeze energy prices until 2017. Let's speak to achieve

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political correspondence Norman Smith. This is going to be the

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battle ground between the government Smith. This is going to be the

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and the opposition, isn't it? It will show how far Labour has

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succeeded in dragging the debate away from economic confidence, onto

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who benefits from the recovery. We are told to expect that week by week

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there will be a series of announcements to ease keep pressure

:15:35.:15:39.

points on family budgets. We are told to expect something on energy

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prices, on water bills, on bank charges, on landlord fees. We got

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trains today. The caveat is, do not assume that financial woes will be

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taken away. There are two reasons. One is money. There was the offer of

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the petrol duty frees, which may or may not be possible. Perhaps more

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problematic is the politics. It is very hard to criticise labour for

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sticking plaster politics if you do exactly the same. -- decides Labour.

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The other difficulty is, what do you do? It is not clear how you ease the

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pressure in these key areas. We know that because we have seen repeated

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efforts by the government to do something about energy bills. We

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have had re-writing energy bills, energy summits, we have been up and

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down 100 times and I suspect most people feel we are getting huge

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energy bills. This train fair announcement, all it

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energy bills. means is instead of going up by

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three times the rate of inflation, they will go up by two times the

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rate of inflation. Why is that progress? It will save the people

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using these fares 30 or 40 pounds, and every little helps. So, it will

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be a lower increase than they originally thought that they will be

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paying up to twice the rate of inflation. There are races -- their

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wages are going up by one or 2%, train fares are going up by 6%. This

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is an announcement about those prices the train companies were

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allowed to put up outside inflation. The increase will be

:17:50.:17:54.

less. But their living standards will go down because the increase is

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going up more than their pay. By definition, they will be worse off.

:17:58.:18:10.

You are taking averages. On average, rail fares in this particular

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category are going to go up by at least twice as much as people's pay

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packets. I disagree with Norman's analysis where he says the debate

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has been wrenched away from growth analysis where he says the debate

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and economic confidence to the cost of living. The biggest help to cost

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of living is having a job. Because of the growth coming into the

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economy we have created 1.4 million private sector jobs over the last

:18:35.:18:38.

couple of years and those people, clearly that helps them deal with

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daily life. Under the last government, the ability to increase

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outside inflation was far bigger than currently proposing. No it

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wasn't. I was in the department. Up until 2003, it was minus fares. From

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2009 onwards, we reduced it. What these guys did was they abolished or

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stop on the Flex, brought it in up to 5%. It is possible for the guv

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regulate prices -- the government to regulate prices. Today I am pleased

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to see the government recognised you can readily. But prices go up of

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wages. The difference is that the British Government can control

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British Rail fares. What it cannot do is control the world or the price

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-- world oil price. To say there is a 20 month freeze... But it is not

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generated by oil. Historic experience tells us if you have a

:20:10.:20:15.

time limited freeze, you get a massive spike beforehand and

:20:15.:20:19.

afterwards. In any case, as Ed has had to admit honestly, it is not

:20:19.:20:28.

scaremongering to say that the price bounces up and down and if it goes

:20:28.:20:32.

up you will have to suspend it. Why do you think the British economy is

:20:32.:20:36.

growing more quickly than any other major economy in the G7? Are we

:20:36.:20:51.

growing quickly? The forecast has changed today. The IMF have changed

:20:51.:20:58.

their forecast for this year and the year after. They have not said that

:20:58.:21:04.

things are hunky-dory. They change their forecast for this year and

:21:04.:21:08.

next year. They are still suggesting we should bring forward

:21:08.:21:15.

infrastructure spend. But when they said the British economy needed a

:21:15.:21:19.

boost, they had not realised that the economy had already turned. They

:21:19.:21:23.

did not see the turn last April and have had to double their forecast.

:21:23.:21:28.

Many people in the city think that even that is not enough. The answer

:21:28.:21:35.

is, why do you think we are the fastest-growing economy in the G7?

:21:36.:21:40.

If you do not know the answer I am not sure that I do! I will tell you

:21:40.:21:50.

this... What about George Osborne? George Osborne broadcast in 2010. He

:21:50.:22:00.

was wrong! The OBR and the IMF got it wrong. What I do say, let me

:22:00.:22:08.

finish, when George Osborne became Chancellor and we were coming out of

:22:08.:22:12.

recession, we were on the path of recovery and that stopped. Nobody

:22:12.:22:20.

knows if that was a dead cat bounce. Nobody knows what would have

:22:21.:22:23.

happened had we invested earlier than we did. Why are we growing

:22:23.:22:29.

faster than the German economy? I am not sure of the answer to that. Tell

:22:29.:22:36.

me what you think it is. What is interesting about the IMF report is

:22:36.:22:42.

that they were saying we needed to spend in the way that Ed Balls has

:22:42.:22:49.

been advocating. They have had to say, it appears the British economy

:22:49.:22:52.

is outperforming most other economies. The British economy is

:22:52.:23:01.

getting better at the same time as they are downgrading their forecasts

:23:01.:23:04.

for the world economy. Relatively we are doing even better than that. Why

:23:04.:23:06.

do either of you give the IMF the are doing even better than that. Why

:23:06.:23:14.

time of day? Because they are an independent body... Where did they

:23:14.:23:20.

last get something right? When did any economist? Humour Letty forbids

:23:20.:23:26.

me from saying anything! -- humility. The IMF did not see the

:23:26.:23:31.

financial crisis, did not see the British economy turning in April of

:23:31.:23:35.

this year. Its growth forecasts have had to double in the space of months

:23:35.:23:40.

and change not just reddish, but others. -- change not just British

:23:40.:23:45.

ones. Why would you give them the time of day? They can trust us.

:23:45.:23:56.

History tells us that they get it wrong more often than they get it

:23:56.:24:00.

right. I hope we are coming out of it, I hope they are right. I think

:24:00.:24:07.

there is a consensus that the economy is doing better than it was

:24:07.:24:13.

a year ago. I am going to move into economic forecasting. Could this be

:24:13.:24:18.

the day when David Cameron's birthday dreams come true, as he

:24:18.:24:24.

turns 47? I bet there is just one thing on his mind. He does not want

:24:24.:24:30.

a Mickey Mouse towel or a six-pack of real ale. He is after only one

:24:30.:24:35.

thing - you tried to get ahead of the game following the Daily

:24:35.:24:39.

Politics on Twitter. Hello, I minister! -- hello, Prime Minister!

:24:39.:24:51.

He wants a Daily Politics mug. You might think following us on Twitter

:24:51.:24:55.

is the way to get your hands on one. Even if it is your birthday, do not

:24:55.:24:59.

expect special favours. There is only one way to get your hands on

:24:59.:25:03.

expect special favours. There is one and we will tell you how.

:25:03.:25:16.

Can you remember when this happened? I have got a little list of benefit

:25:16.:25:21.

offenders who I will soon be rooting out and who never would be missed.

:25:21.:25:23.

They never would be missed! To be in with a chance of winning a

:25:23.:27:00.

Daily Politics mug, I minister, send your answer to the e-mail address

:27:00.:27:04.

and you can see the full terms and conditions and guess the year on our

:27:04.:27:15.

website. Or ask Andrew, he knows! Let's take a look at Big Ben, there

:27:15.:27:21.

it is. Prime Minister's Questions is on its way. We have not had one

:27:21.:27:27.

since the second week in September. It means James Landale is here,

:27:27.:27:34.

welcome. A third book on you copy a -- a great assortment of things

:27:34.:27:41.

today to choose from. Ed Miliband is criticised for making speeches and

:27:41.:27:45.

not following it up. Earlier it was the cost of living and energy

:27:45.:27:49.

prices. This is his first big moment to reinforce the message. If you

:27:49.:27:54.

look at the alternatives, they are not attractive. He does not want to

:27:54.:27:59.

make the Leveson Report re-apolitical foot all, literacy and

:27:59.:28:04.

numerous is also part of Labour's record, there is not much ground

:28:04.:28:11.

that he might want to get on. I would expect him to stay in his

:28:11.:28:17.

rift. He wants to occupy his own political territory. David Cameron

:28:17.:28:21.

will obviously talk about train fares. I think that is right when

:28:21.:28:31.

you look at the others. In the Home Office, if you see somebody looking

:28:31.:28:33.

through your wastebasket, it is not Office, if you see somebody looking

:28:33.:28:38.

a Russian spy, it is your new ministerial colleague! We have had

:28:38.:28:44.

our first meeting with Norman, we had the crime commissioners in, and

:28:44.:28:47.

Norman listened to the Home Secretary speak and that is always a

:28:47.:28:53.

good way to go through meetings, I find. Very sensible! HD Cam down?

:28:53.:29:08.

She is always calm. I bumped into a senior Liberal Democrat this morning

:29:08.:29:11.

who predicted there will be a resignation in the Home Office

:29:11.:29:13.

who predicted there will be a within six months over a row. They

:29:13.:29:18.

think he is going to be dangerous as a minister. I spoke to some

:29:18.:29:30.

Conservatives who want to put Nick Clegg in his box.

:29:30.:29:48.

Sure the people worn to join me in offering condolences about the

:29:48.:29:54.

people who lost their lives in Nairobi, and it shows how we must do

:29:54.:29:58.

all we can to defeat international terrorism. I am sure the house will

:29:58.:30:02.

want to join me in paying tribute to PC Andrew Duncan who died on the

:30:03.:30:07.

21st of September while on duty, a reminder of the sacrifices that

:30:07.:30:10.

police officers make on our behalf, every day of every year. On a

:30:10.:30:15.

happier note, the house will wish to congratulate Professor Peter Higgs

:30:15.:30:20.

who is sharing this year 's Nobel Prize for physics, a richly deserved

:30:20.:30:24.

recognition of his lifetime of research and a tribute to the UK's

:30:24.:30:27.

world leading universities where the research was carried out. Mr

:30:27.:30:31.

Speaker, this morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and in

:30:31.:30:35.

addition to my duties with the house I will have further meetings later

:30:35.:30:43.

today. Can I associate myself and constituency entirely with the

:30:43.:30:46.

victims of terrorism in Nairobi and to PC Andrew Junction -- Andrew

:30:46.:30:52.

Duncan, and to offer my congratulations to Professor Higgs.

:30:52.:30:55.

Can the Prime Minister confirm that less than one third of families in

:30:55.:31:00.

Britain will benefit from his marriage tax break? What I can

:31:00.:31:04.

confirm is that all married couples paying basic rate tax will benefit

:31:04.:31:08.

from this move, and I tell you why I think it's important, it's not about

:31:08.:31:12.

the money, it is about the message. I think marriage is a great

:31:12.:31:16.

institution and I think we should be supporting marriage, including

:31:16.:31:22.

through the income tax system. Prime Minister, with the disappearance of

:31:23.:31:26.

the minimum practice income guarantee many doctors surgeries

:31:26.:31:32.

serving remote, rural areas like the one in my constituency faced death

:31:32.:31:36.

not by a thousand cuts, but maybe death by one cut. They self -- serve

:31:36.:31:41.

a lot of elderly residents and a number of children who do not have

:31:41.:31:44.

a lot of elderly residents and a access to public transport to go

:31:44.:31:49.

into neighbouring Clitheroe. Will he investigate this issue and ensure

:31:49.:31:54.

that my constituents will not be isolated and they will continue to

:31:54.:31:57.

receive the excellent service that they do from their doctor 's

:31:57.:32:01.

surgery? I will look carefully at the Casey makes. I also read present

:32:01.:32:04.

a large rural constituency where the Casey makes. I also read present

:32:04.:32:07.

there are small practices -- the case he makes. But many more

:32:07.:32:15.

surgeries are offering many more options given to patients, and we

:32:15.:32:18.

want to see a growth of that, not least to make sure that people can

:32:18.:32:22.

go to GP surgeries rather than accident and emergency services if

:32:22.:32:25.

it is a GP that they may, but I will look at the specific point he makes.

:32:25.:32:31.

Mr Speaker, I join the Prime Minister in sending my condolences

:32:31.:32:35.

to the friends and families of the British nationals murdered in

:32:35.:32:38.

Nairobi and all of those killed in that cowardly act. It was a heinous

:32:38.:32:43.

act of terrorism and reminds us of the importance of combating

:32:43.:32:45.

terrorism at home and around the world. I also join him in paying

:32:45.:32:51.

tribute to PC Andrew Duncan. His death is a terrible tragedy and is a

:32:51.:32:56.

reminder of the bravery shown by our brave policemen and women, day in,

:32:56.:33:11.

day out, on our behalf. I send my condolences to his family and

:33:11.:33:13.

friends. On a completely different note, Mr Speaker, I join him in

:33:13.:33:15.

celebrating the tremendous achievement of Peter Higgs in

:33:15.:33:17.

winning the Nobel Prize for physics. He is a great British scientist.

:33:17.:33:20.

While we're on about it, happy birthday to the minister. -- to the

:33:20.:33:26.

Prime Minister. Mr Speaker, on Monday, the Prime Minister said, and

:33:26.:33:31.

I quote, there is a certain amount you can do freezing energy prices,

:33:31.:33:35.

while the Chancellor said in his conference speech that it was

:33:35.:33:39.

something out of, and I quote, -- L. Can he tell us if freezing energy

:33:39.:33:48.

prices are good idea, or a communist plot -- Das Kapital. I will leave

:33:48.:33:56.

the communist plots to him. First of all, can I thank him for his kind

:33:56.:34:00.

remarks. There is nothing I would rather be doing on my birthday than

:34:00.:34:04.

this. What this government is doing is legislating to put people on to

:34:04.:34:08.

the lowest energy tariffs. I think that's a real step forward. I have

:34:08.:34:13.

to say on this issue, just promising a freeze, it is a classic case of

:34:13.:34:18.

him saying one thing and doing another. Month after month, he has

:34:18.:34:21.

stood at this dispatch box as energy another. Month after month, he has

:34:21.:34:25.

secretary and pollution -- produced policy of the policy, regulation of

:34:25.:34:29.

that regulation, target after target, all of which has seen energy

:34:29.:34:35.

prices go up. What is clear from the answer is that he has no answer on

:34:35.:34:40.

the Labour energy price freeze. What is clear is that it will not happen

:34:40.:34:44.

under him, but it would happen under a Labour government. He mentions his

:34:44.:34:51.

policy on tariffs, and he says his policy will put everybody on the

:34:51.:34:56.

cheapest energy tariff. Can he explain why at least 90% of the

:34:56.:35:01.

country will get no benefit from his policy? First of all, let's deal

:35:01.:35:05.

with the new Labour energy policy. Let's spend some time on it. First

:35:05.:35:10.

of all, let's examine the fact that he has committed to a new

:35:10.:35:16.

decarbonisation target that would add £125 to everybody's bill in the

:35:16.:35:20.

country. Perhaps he would like to mention that when he gets to his

:35:20.:35:24.

feet. He also didn't mention that just 12 hours after making his

:35:24.:35:29.

pledge, he said he might not be able to fulfil it because of

:35:29.:35:32.

international wholesale gas prices. And isn't that the case, that what

:35:32.:35:35.

international wholesale gas prices. he is promising is a price increase

:35:35.:35:39.

before a promise, a broken promise, and then a price increase after the

:35:39.:35:45.

promise. One price increase, one price -- broken promise, another

:35:45.:35:48.

price increase, that sounds like every Labour government since the

:35:48.:35:54.

war. What is clear is that he is floundering around and has no answer

:35:54.:36:00.

to Labour's energy price freeze. He did not even defend his own policy,

:36:00.:36:04.

which won't benefit to 90% of the country. He has no idea. He says he

:36:04.:36:09.

wants to bring energy prices down. Can he confirm that energy prices

:36:09.:36:14.

have gone up by £300 since he became prime minister? I can tell you that

:36:15.:36:19.

energy prices doubled under Labour and electricity prices went up by

:36:19.:36:24.

50%. Let me make this point to him. There is one thing governments

:36:24.:36:28.

cannot control, and that is the international wholesale price of

:36:28.:36:38.

gas. I know he would like to live in some sort of Marxist universe where

:36:38.:36:40.

you can control all of these things, but he needs a basic lesson in

:36:40.:36:43.

economics. Perhaps he should remember what the Labour industry

:36:43.:36:46.

minister said, he sat in the government with him in the last

:36:46.:36:50.

government, and in an effort to appeal to tribal socialism and the

:36:50.:36:54.

minority in the country he has put at risk millions of jobs, putting up

:36:54.:36:57.

a sign over the country, don't invest here. That is the new

:36:57.:37:07.

left-wing Labour Party. Mr Speaker, I do suggest that he goes away after

:37:07.:37:13.

Prime Minister 's questions and tries to work out his position on

:37:13.:37:17.

the energy price freeze, because initially he said the policy was in

:37:17.:37:19.

knots, then he said on Monday that initially he said the policy was in

:37:19.:37:26.

it struck a chord and that it could make a difference, so he has no idea

:37:26.:37:31.

about the policy. Why are energy prices so high? Once again he did

:37:31.:37:35.

not answer the question. I want to remind him of the words of the

:37:35.:37:38.

previous leader of the opposition, who said this, when the gas prices

:37:38.:37:42.

go up they rush to pass on costs onto us, but when they are coming

:37:42.:37:47.

down, we wait a very long time before we see anything coming

:37:47.:37:51.

through on our bills. Mr Speaker, that was him that said that. Why has

:37:51.:37:58.

he changed his mind? What we need is a more competitive energy market so

:37:58.:38:03.

the consumer benefits. What he seems to be suffering from is complete

:38:03.:38:08.

amnesia that he was the energy secretary. Let me remind him of one

:38:08.:38:12.

of the first acts this government took. We inherited an energy policy

:38:12.:38:19.

from him that would have put £179 on every single bill because of his

:38:19.:38:24.

renewable heat initiative. And we cancel it. That was his policy.

:38:24.:38:28.

While we are dealing with quotes, let's have a guess who said this. To

:38:28.:38:33.

deal with the problems of climate change, energy bills are likely to

:38:33.:38:38.

rise. Who said that? Anyone? The last energy secretary who is still

:38:38.:38:44.

here and he pushed up prices again and again. Everybody wants low

:38:44.:38:47.

prices, but we will get them by dealing with the cause of the low

:38:47.:38:50.

price instead of a gimmick that collapsed after 12 hours. Mr

:38:50.:38:57.

Speaker, he says he wants low prices, but prices are going up on

:38:57.:39:01.

his watch. That is the reality. Can he confirm that while his energy

:39:01.:39:07.

policy, the so-called cheapest tariff policy, benefits almost

:39:07.:39:14.

nobody, a fact he didn't deny, and a 20 month freezing bills would save

:39:14.:39:18.

money for 27 million households and 2.4 million businesses across the

:39:18.:39:23.

country. The problem is that 12 hours later he said he might not be

:39:23.:39:27.

able to keep his promise. It's not a policy, it's a gimmick. And the

:39:27.:39:31.

reason it is a gimmick is it occurs he is in favour of a decarbonisation

:39:31.:39:36.

target that would add £125 of everybody's bail. It is obvious why

:39:36.:39:38.

he wants to talk about the cost of everybody's bail. It is obvious why

:39:38.:39:41.

living, because he hasn't got an economic policy any more. He told us

:39:41.:39:47.

over and over again that if you cut spending, you damage public

:39:47.:39:51.

services. Now even the BBC disagree with that. He told us over and over

:39:51.:39:56.

again that if you cut spending, the economy will not grow. The shadow

:39:56.:40:00.

chancellor says keep going. Let me tell you the best birthday present I

:40:00.:40:04.

could have, the shadow chancellor staying in the shadow cabinet.

:40:04.:40:16.

Mr Speaker, he said something very interesting. He said he did not want

:40:16.:40:23.

to talk about an economic policy, he wants to talk about the cost of

:40:23.:40:27.

living. Now doesn't that say it all? He doesn't realise that an

:40:27.:40:32.

economic policy is about the cost of living and what hundreds of

:40:32.:40:35.

thousands and millions of families are facing in this country. Whatever

:40:35.:40:39.

you say about him, he is true to form. We have a cost of living

:40:39.:40:43.

crisis in this country, energy bills Arkwright -- rising, and he supports

:40:44.:40:47.

the energy companies, not the consumer. We have a Prime Minister

:40:47.:40:51.

who always stands up for the wrong people. Well, we know what is cost

:40:51.:40:56.

of living policy is, more spending, more borrowing, and more debt. That

:40:56.:41:01.

would lead to higher taxes and higher mortgage rates. That is the

:41:01.:41:04.

double whammy that would hit every family in the country. But not only

:41:04.:41:08.

have I got the birthday present of the shadow chancellor staying in

:41:08.:41:12.

post, and incidentally, the birthday present of the Shadow Health

:41:12.:41:16.

Secretary staying in post, I also have this special birthday treat

:41:16.:41:20.

which is the shadow chancellor yesterday revealing their election

:41:20.:41:32.

campaign. He said it all depended on the two of them together because,

:41:32.:41:35.

and I quote, I'm not making this up, they would win because of their

:41:35.:41:36.

and I quote, I'm not making this up, experience and track record and

:41:37.:41:39.

their credibility. I have to say, Mr Speaker, that is like the captain of

:41:39.:41:43.

the Titanic running on his safety record. Thank you, Mr Speaker.

:41:43.:41:52.

Millions of people have chosen to collect their benefits and pension

:41:53.:41:56.

at the post office using a post office current account. This

:41:56.:41:58.

contract is due to expire in 18 months time. It is vital that these

:41:58.:42:02.

people and the future of rural post offices at either the post office

:42:02.:42:09.

continues after 2015, or a similar product. I hope the government --

:42:09.:42:13.

government insures it does. The Post Office card account has been a great

:42:13.:42:17.

benefit for many people and has not only helped the post offices but

:42:17.:42:19.

particularly older people having access to those accounts and I will

:42:19.:42:24.

look very carefully at what he says. Why is market intervention by the

:42:24.:42:29.

state in mortgage is OK, but market intervention in the energy market is

:42:29.:42:35.

not? We are intervening in the mortgage market because banks are

:42:35.:42:38.

failing to provide mortgages so that young people can get on the housing

:42:39.:42:48.

ladder. We are also intervening by putting everybody on the lowest

:42:48.:42:52.

energy tariff. Not the leader of the opposition cannot control, although

:42:52.:42:56.

he would like to, is international gas prices. He needs a basic lesson

:42:56.:42:58.

in economics and it sounds like the gas prices. He needs a basic lesson

:42:58.:43:04.

honourable gentleman does as well. Industrial chemicals, herbicides and

:43:04.:43:09.

plant food are used in a variety of diet pills which are banned for

:43:09.:43:13.

human use but widely advertised on the Internet for consumption. Does

:43:13.:43:15.

my right honourable friend agree with me that action needs to be

:43:16.:43:20.

urgently taken to prevent the importation of the substances in

:43:20.:43:23.

Capshaw form, where they can only be planned for human consumption --

:43:23.:43:29.

capsule form. There have been some extremely serious cases of young

:43:29.:43:31.

people in particular suffering from extremely serious cases of young

:43:31.:43:34.

these sorts of medication that you are able to order on the Internet. I

:43:34.:43:37.

will look carefully at what she says about whether there is further

:43:37.:43:41.

legislative or regulatory action that can be taken in order to

:43:41.:43:44.

protect people from substances that might be safe in other circumstances

:43:44.:43:47.

but should not be marketed in this way. Why is the Prime Minister

:43:47.:43:54.

taking away £7 billion a year of support to children until 2015? We

:43:54.:44:03.

are putting in more support for children. We are providing the

:44:03.:44:08.

childcare offer not just for four-year-olds and three-year-olds,

:44:08.:44:11.

but also for two-year-olds. We have introduced for the first time a

:44:11.:44:15.

pupil premium so children from the poorest homes are actually going to

:44:15.:44:19.

get more money following them into school. He shakes his head, but

:44:19.:44:24.

frankly he should sit in shame at the OECD report that came out

:44:24.:44:28.

yesterday that showed that after a lifetime in education under Labour

:44:28.:44:31.

ally young people are bottom of the league in terms of results. That is

:44:31.:44:37.

what he should focus on. It is time the house heard from John Randall.

:44:37.:44:48.

Can I draw my honourable friend 's attention to the recent report by

:44:48.:44:53.

Imperial College about the detrimental health effects of

:44:53.:44:55.

aircraft noise, and could he make detrimental health effects of

:44:55.:45:00.

sure that when the government decide and look at the Davis commission

:45:00.:45:04.

report that health and environmental and look at the Davis commission

:45:04.:45:15.

considerations are paramount? He has not had the chance to speak from the

:45:15.:45:18.

backbenches in the way he just has and I look forward to hearing other

:45:18.:45:22.

contributions from him. He brings a huge amount to the House and

:45:22.:45:30.

environmental law will be included in the report and there will be a

:45:30.:45:35.

speech about the issue soon. Does the Prime Minister think it is

:45:36.:45:40.

acceptable that since he came to office the number of people claiming

:45:40.:45:44.

jobseeker's allowance from more than two years has increased by 390%?

:45:44.:45:51.

What has happened is that the number of workless households has gone down

:45:51.:45:53.

to its lowest level. The number of of workless households has gone down

:45:53.:45:57.

households claiming benefit has gone down. And why we are at it, if she

:45:57.:46:01.

looks at what is happening in the north-west, since the election,

:46:01.:46:09.

18,000 people more in employment, more people employed in the private

:46:09.:46:15.

sector, unemployment has fallen by 7000 since the election in the

:46:15.:46:20.

north-west and workless households down by 26,000. She should be

:46:20.:46:26.

talking up her region. I wonder if the Prime Minister has seen today's

:46:26.:46:32.

BBCi CM report showing that despite reductions in spending, people think

:46:32.:46:38.

that services provided by local government are better. Does this

:46:38.:46:44.

show you can get more for less? When I woke up this morning and heard the

:46:44.:46:49.

BBC was reporting that you can cut public spending and make public

:46:49.:46:52.

services that I thought I had died and gone to happen for a moment. --

:46:52.:46:59.

want to heaven. It is one of the many pillars of Labour's policy that

:46:59.:47:04.

has collapsed today. The IMF have shown them they were wrong. They pop

:47:04.:47:07.

has collapsed today. The IMF have the public spending cuts would lead

:47:07.:47:12.

to worse services and the BBC have told them that is wrong. That is

:47:12.:47:20.

what has happened today. Labour's childcare guarantee will be great

:47:20.:47:24.

for working parents, so says Boris Johnson. Does the Prime Minister

:47:24.:47:30.

agree? We are helping working parents with childcare and that is

:47:30.:47:34.

what the tax relief on childcare that this government will be

:47:34.:47:40.

introducing the be about. -- will be about. In 2nd January of my

:47:40.:47:51.

constituents -- in January, two of my constituents were killed by a

:47:51.:47:53.

driver who received just over ten years for his crime. People in the

:47:53.:48:02.

area has signed a petition calling for those who drive while

:48:02.:48:08.

disqualified to receive tougher sentences. Does he believe the law

:48:08.:48:12.

should be looked at in this area? On a Mac ever look at the petition and

:48:12.:48:19.

I will like to offer -- I will look at the petition and I offer my

:48:19.:48:24.

condolences to the men's families. Someone with ten previous

:48:24.:48:27.

convictions, disqualified at the time, killing two people, the

:48:27.:48:32.

sentence was ten years and as I understand the maximum available is

:48:32.:48:38.

14 years. The government has introduced legislation, so we are

:48:38.:48:44.

looking at this area. The Justice Secretary has asked the sentencing

:48:44.:48:48.

council to review the sentencing guidelines. We should look at this

:48:48.:48:54.

specific case in the light of that. A family in my constituency owning

:48:54.:49:05.

£18,000 per year are paying 3200 and £76 -- £3276 in energy bills. Why is

:49:05.:49:16.

he siding with energy bosses? I want to see people's Energy Bill is

:49:16.:49:20.

coming down. That is why we are legislating to see people on the

:49:20.:49:25.

lowest tariffs and we are looking at the rules put in place by the Leader

:49:25.:49:33.

of the Opposition when he was energy secretary, and we are looking at the

:49:33.:49:45.

promises that cannot be met. Does the Prime Minister agree with the

:49:45.:49:48.

director-general of the CBI that whether you are a small, medium or

:49:48.:49:52.

large business you have to grow and invest as a business and higher

:49:52.:49:58.

taxes just do not do that? My honourable friend is entirely right.

:49:58.:50:02.

What we heard at Labour's conference was that they were going to put up

:50:02.:50:06.

taxes on some of Britain's biggest and most successful businesses.

:50:06.:50:12.

Labour's message to business is, go somewhere else. They want to fight a

:50:12.:50:18.

petty Socialist campaign against successful business. That is wrong

:50:18.:50:24.

for the economy. Question eight, closed question. My original letter

:50:24.:50:36.

was about economic development. Local growth is a priority and we

:50:36.:50:41.

are helping to create 66,000 jobs with investment specifically in the

:50:41.:50:45.

north-east of £330 million. We do not want to go back to the previous

:50:45.:50:49.

Administration's system, but the local growth Cabinet committee

:50:49.:50:55.

brings together the secretaries of state from the key departments. Is

:50:55.:50:59.

he aware that the Department of Health are consulting on changing

:50:59.:51:02.

the funding formula for health care in the north-east and Cumbria

:51:02.:51:08.

because the effect of taking £230 million out of the health care

:51:08.:51:16.

budget for the region, who stands up for the North of England? The whole

:51:16.:51:19.

government stands up for the north-east of England. If you want

:51:19.:51:27.

news, you have got Hitachi building a trade that, Nissan expanding in

:51:27.:51:34.

sunny land, -- Sunderland, there is plenty of expansion. Demi answer his

:51:34.:51:42.

question. This year's funding is going up for £170 million, a 2.3%

:51:42.:51:51.

increase. Under the Labour plans, health spending would be cut. The

:51:51.:51:55.

Shadow Health Secretary, the man they have decided to keep in the

:51:55.:52:00.

Shadow Cabinet, has said that increasing health spending is

:52:00.:52:05.

irresponsible. We do not agree with that and that is why we are spending

:52:05.:52:16.

more money. Can I congratulate the government on ending the unfairness

:52:16.:52:20.

in free school meals? By the Prime Minister look to ending similar

:52:20.:52:25.

unfairness or six form -- were sixth form colleges have to pay VAT but

:52:25.:52:33.

schools or academies with six forms do not. I think it is good we will

:52:33.:52:35.

schools or academies with six forms have the same system. I think it is

:52:35.:52:42.

good that children in infants school will not be having to pay for school

:52:42.:52:46.

meals as well. I will look carefully at his VAT point. The Prime Minister

:52:47.:52:57.

will know from his script that I am an extremely proud member of a trade

:52:57.:53:01.

union movement which seeks to stand up for workers, who is living

:53:01.:53:05.

standards have been reduced under his watch. What personal sacrifice

:53:05.:53:11.

him and his family -- have he and his family had to make in these

:53:11.:53:17.

times? I am glad that he stands up as a trade unionist. Just as I

:53:17.:53:22.

welcome the reshuffle I am sure he is delighted with it. Probably they

:53:22.:53:30.

would not call it a reshuffle, but rather a purge. He asked for the

:53:30.:53:34.

Blairites to be purged and they have gone. It has been difficult because

:53:34.:53:41.

of the appalling deficit and that his party left in government. In my

:53:41.:53:50.

constituency there is a school that his party left in government. In my

:53:50.:53:54.

is at threat of being closed down by the county council. I have spoken to

:53:54.:54:00.

the Education Secretary and it has been generic over four years. With

:54:00.:54:04.

the Prime Minister assure me that his office will look into fair play

:54:04.:54:09.

in this subject, given that the county council education portfolio

:54:09.:54:11.

holder has said that in his opinion the school should close, but the

:54:12.:54:16.

first part of the consultation has only just been completed a few

:54:16.:54:22.

months ago. I will look at the case but under our education reforms

:54:22.:54:26.

there is greater opportunities for schools to gain their independence

:54:26.:54:29.

and for new schools to establish themselves. I hope he will look at

:54:29.:54:32.

and for new schools to establish the structural changes we made to

:54:32.:54:35.

education, because they may help in this case. Under this government,

:54:35.:54:41.

the cost of childcare is rocketing while wages have stagnated. Families

:54:42.:54:46.

are facing nursery costs rising fast than wages -- faster than wages.

:54:46.:54:54.

When is he going to extend free nursery provision to 25 hours? We

:54:54.:54:59.

have extended the hours that people get when they have four-year-olds,

:54:59.:55:05.

when they have three roads, and for the first time introduced childcare

:55:05.:55:09.

assistance when they have two-year-olds. We are also

:55:09.:55:14.

introducing proper tax relief on childcare so that people who work

:55:14.:55:18.

hard and do the right thing can get help. I hope when it comes to vote,

:55:18.:55:24.

the party opposite will support us. One month ago I installed call

:55:24.:55:28.

blocking technology in a partially deaf constituent's home. In the last

:55:28.:55:34.

month, 65% of the calls Mrs Moffat received have been using -- nuisance

:55:34.:55:42.

calls. Can my right honourable friend commits the government to

:55:43.:55:47.

doing all it can to remove this menace, including making telephone

:55:47.:55:55.

companies responsible for treating these calls? I am sure he advised

:55:55.:56:00.

his constituent about the Telephone preference service? It is a bane in

:56:00.:56:06.

some people's lives. I am sure we can look further at what else can be

:56:06.:56:12.

done. On reflection, does the Prime Minister agree that allowing greater

:56:12.:56:16.

time for greater diplomatic discussions to take place over Syria

:56:16.:56:23.

was preferable to rushing in and bombing a country? The fact that

:56:23.:56:26.

America was so clear that it would take action was what brought about a

:56:26.:56:31.

change of heart on behalf of the Syrian government and that is the

:56:31.:56:38.

lesson we should learn. One of the biggest factors for many young

:56:38.:56:42.

people's budgets is the cost of their mortgage. Can the Prime

:56:42.:56:46.

Minister tell us what will be the effect on mortgage rates if the

:56:46.:56:48.

government were to increase borrowing by 27.9 billion as the

:56:48.:56:55.

opposition have called for since promising iron discipline? One of

:56:55.:57:02.

the most important aspects of people's bills is the mortgage

:57:02.:57:05.

payments they have to make and the Shadow Chancellor is shouting it is

:57:05.:57:09.

not true, but he is committed to increasing borrowing and if you

:57:10.:57:13.

borrow more you risk interest rates and mortgage rates going up.

:57:13.:57:16.

Families across the country understand that and understand you

:57:16.:57:22.

only get to grips with the cost of living and living standards if you

:57:22.:57:26.

have a proper economic plan for getting the deficit down, getting

:57:26.:57:30.

growth and cutting taxes. That is what this committee is doing. My

:57:30.:57:38.

constituent was brutally murdered and his girlfriend gang raped whilst

:57:38.:57:43.

on holiday in Sri Lanka two years ago. Justice continues to be denied

:57:43.:57:47.

on holiday in Sri Lanka two years and the key suspect is a close ally

:57:47.:57:52.

of the Sri Lankan president. Is the Prime Minister, double meeting the

:57:52.:57:57.

President at the Commonwealth heads of government summit next month, and

:57:57.:58:02.

what will he say to him? I think it is right for the British Prime

:58:02.:58:05.

Minister to go to the Commonwealth conference, because we are big

:58:05.:58:10.

believers in the Commonwealth at making that organisation work for

:58:10.:58:14.

us. It is right in going to the Commonwealth conference, we should

:58:15.:58:18.

not hold back in being clear about those aspects of human rights record

:58:18.:58:21.

in July, we are not happy with. If gives me the retail, I will make

:58:21.:58:29.

sure those points are properly made. You cannot make those points if you

:58:29.:58:35.

do not go. Will the Prime Minister welcome the scrap metal dealers act

:58:35.:58:41.

which came into force last week? It has got the support of the Church,

:58:41.:58:45.

extra taxes will boost Treasury revenues and it will make the trains

:58:45.:58:51.

run on time. Can he say that about any other piece of legislation? Can

:58:51.:58:58.

I say to the honourable gentleman what pleasure it gives me today to

:58:58.:59:03.

refer to him as my right honourable friend. I welcome the effect of the

:59:03.:59:09.

Scrap Metal Bill, which brings revenue to the Treasury. It also

:59:09.:59:15.

helps deal with this crime, particularly because of the price of

:59:15.:59:22.

metals. I know this will help make sure that lead is not stolen from

:59:22.:59:30.

churches again. 83% of the beneficiaries of the government's

:59:30.:59:34.

proposed marriage tax break will be men. Just 17% will be women. Why

:59:34.:59:39.

does the Prime Minister have such a blind spot when it comes to women? I

:59:39.:59:45.

think it is worth supporting marriage through the income tax

:59:45.:59:49.

system. Let me make this challenge to the party opposite - in

:59:49.:59:54.

government, they gave a marriage tax break through the inheritance tax

:59:54.:59:59.

system. They get a married tax break to the rich. I want to give it to

:59:59.:00:10.

everybody. Does the Prime Minister believes that when the European

:00:10.:00:14.

Union forces my constituents to buy 20 cigarettes at a time rather than

:00:14.:00:18.

their current ten it will reduce the number they smoke? It does not, on

:00:18.:00:25.

the face of it, sounds sensible. I was not aware of this issue. Let me

:00:25.:00:33.

get back to him. Why has he told members of his party behind closed

:00:33.:00:37.

doors that forcing through same-sex marriage legislation was a turbo

:00:37.:00:44.

mistake? I have not and I am proud that we passed same-sex marriage in

:00:44.:00:47.

this parliament and proud of the road I played in bringing it

:00:47.:00:51.

forward. I think marriage is a wonderful thing and that goes

:00:51.:00:56.

whether you are a man and a woman or a man and a man or a woman and a

:00:56.:00:59.

woman. It makes the country fairer and I hope that is clear. With even

:01:00.:01:11.

Boris Johnson admitting that his Thames Estuary airport plan has no

:01:11.:01:15.

support, does the Prime Minister welcome Sir Howard Davies's

:01:15.:01:19.

statement that some plans will not even past first base

:01:19.:01:22.

environmentally? I do not want in any way to interfere with what

:01:22.:01:28.

Howard Davies is doing. He is the right person to carry out this

:01:28.:01:33.

report. It is important we try and build cross-party consensus on the

:01:33.:01:36.

basis that it is a therapy process and so that all parties will be able

:01:36.:01:38.

to endorse it when the conclusions and so that all parties will be able

:01:38.:01:40.

come out. Order. The first prime ministers questions

:01:40.:01:55.

and is the end of the conference season. The freezing energy prices

:01:55.:01:59.

dominated the conference and it dominated questions again today.

:01:59.:02:03.

That is what the argument was about, back and forth between the front

:02:03.:02:07.

benches. We will argue the toss over the substance of the policy and also

:02:07.:02:11.

the politics in a minute. First let's hear what you thought of the

:02:11.:02:18.

questions. Lots of e-mails, almost all about cost of living and the

:02:18.:02:24.

debate on energy. Diane says it was a commanding return for Ed Miliband

:02:24.:02:28.

who won hands down on a specific issue, the energy price freeze.

:02:28.:02:33.

Popular and very welcome for millions of households. Ray Newton

:02:33.:02:36.

says we will pay more for the energy as between now and the next election

:02:36.:02:45.

as they increase prices to prevent a possible future retail price

:02:45.:02:48.

freeze. Jacqueline says it sounds like neither the Labour Party or the

:02:48.:02:53.

Tories have a clue on how to rein in the vast profit making machines

:02:53.:02:56.

known as energy companies. Both are rich and not to care about the bills

:02:56.:03:01.

like the rest of this. John in Leeds says David Cameron wants to talk

:03:01.:03:04.

about everybody's policies but their own, and Ed Miliband wants to talk

:03:04.:03:08.

about anything but Labour's past polities. The energy companies would

:03:08.:03:13.

do well to generate the hot air in the palaces of Westminster 's every

:03:13.:03:19.

Wednesday. It's interesting that in the debate they are moving away from

:03:19.:03:27.

the macroeconomic matters, growth figures, inflation, employment, to a

:03:27.:03:31.

language where they are trying to get ordinary households to engage,

:03:31.:03:34.

talking about things that matter, energy prices, rail prices. This

:03:34.:03:38.

will be the nature of the debate between now and Christmas, I would

:03:38.:03:42.

suggest. It's the nature of the debate Ed Miliband wants to have. I

:03:42.:03:45.

don't think it's the nature of the debate David Cameron wants to have.

:03:45.:03:49.

We saw some of the uncertainty in the response from David Cameron.

:03:49.:03:53.

Sometimes the energy price freeze was a Marxist plot, sometimes it was

:03:53.:03:58.

a gimmick, sometimes it was something he wanted to match. We are

:03:58.:04:01.

sure that the Conservatives will have their own offer, but that is

:04:01.:04:05.

because the Conservative position is uncertain. They have do have some

:04:05.:04:09.

retail offers to match this kind of thing, and it is a concern to the

:04:09.:04:13.

electorate and they want those votes may have to do something. But

:04:13.:04:17.

equally, David Cameron does not want this to be the debate at the

:04:17.:04:20.

election. He does not want it to be about which is the best party to

:04:20.:04:24.

help people now the cost of living. He wanted to be about the economy

:04:24.:04:29.

and the future, almost a question of timing about who has the best for

:04:29.:04:33.

the future. You saw some attempt by the Prime Minister to say the real

:04:33.:04:36.

debate was about the economy not the cost of living, but quite an

:04:36.:04:40.

undeveloped argument. We saw some of the flaws in Ed Miliband's position,

:04:40.:04:44.

that David Cameron pointed out with his own record in government as

:04:44.:04:49.

energy secretary, but also the inconsistency with the

:04:49.:04:52.

decarbonisation plans. A mixed message I think is what we got.

:04:52.:04:57.

Damian Green, the Prime Minister said he was intervening in the

:04:57.:05:03.

mortgage market because the mortgage market was functioning properly.

:05:03.:05:08.

Does that mean the energy market is functioning properly? He said he was

:05:08.:05:12.

intervening in the mortgage market because it wasn't functioning

:05:12.:05:15.

properly particularly for young, first-time buyers. We understand

:05:15.:05:19.

that. So does he think the energy market is functioning? He also said

:05:19.:05:22.

he had intervened in the energy market with the move to put people

:05:22.:05:29.

on lower tariffs. Which won't affect 90% of those who pay bills. It

:05:29.:05:35.

depends on what you are paying now. If everybody is on the lowest

:05:36.:05:40.

tariff, it's not the lowest tariff, it's the only tariff. And how will

:05:40.:05:44.

you therefore know if it is the lowest? Markets will operate. We

:05:44.:05:51.

know that the energy market is at least as dysfunctional as the

:05:51.:05:55.

mortgage market. So why is it wrong to say that we can take a price

:05:55.:06:01.

freeze, and interregnum price freeze, not forever, while we get

:06:01.:06:04.

the market to function properly? What's wrong with that? You have to

:06:04.:06:08.

distinguish between the issue and the Labour policy. The Prime

:06:08.:06:14.

Minister said there was resident in the issue, but not the particular

:06:14.:06:18.

policy. As already discussed, the idea at a time specific price

:06:18.:06:21.

freeze, we know from way back in the 1970s when the government used to

:06:21.:06:26.

try it, it doesn't work. You get spikes either side. It is peculiarly

:06:26.:06:30.

inappropriate in this instance because the British government does

:06:30.:06:34.

not control the world price of oil. In the 1970s Roy Hattersley was

:06:34.:06:37.

sitting in the office down the right in thinking he could control the

:06:37.:06:42.

price of sugar and bread. That is not what the Labour Party are

:06:42.:06:47.

proposing. Labour is proposing an energy market that is widely

:06:47.:06:51.

regarded as dysfunctional, and we need to sort it out, and while we

:06:51.:06:57.

sort it out, over 20 months, we will freeze the price. Your version of

:06:57.:07:00.

the Labour policy would be more coherent than anything Ed Miliband

:07:00.:07:04.

said. He did not say he would sort the energy market out. He has. He

:07:04.:07:11.

has got form. As energy secretary, he did lots of things to put prices

:07:11.:07:16.

up, so it will be interesting to know which of his previous act as

:07:16.:07:19.

energy secretary he is prepared to disavow. Did I describe your party

:07:19.:07:26.

policy wrongly? You must have read the same script is me this morning.

:07:26.:07:32.

We don't believe that about the BBC, I'll say that out loud. Tony Blair

:07:32.:07:36.

and Gordon Brown said they would have a windfall on utilities, and

:07:36.:07:39.

these guys said they would hike up the prices, go overseas, there will

:07:39.:07:41.

these guys said they would hike up be chaos, and it didn't happen. We

:07:41.:07:45.

used the windfall tax to have the new Deal which had young people

:07:45.:07:49.

getting jobs. In the 20 months it takes to have a new regulator with

:07:49.:07:54.

teeth to have the six energy companies who control 97% of the

:07:54.:07:59.

energy for households and businesses, while we have a

:07:59.:08:02.

situation where they can group their energy into one common pool which

:08:02.:08:04.

situation where they can group their can be given out to households and

:08:04.:08:09.

businesses, then we can separate it out and for 20 months we would have

:08:09.:08:14.

a freeze on energy prices. Your government wanted to regulate the

:08:14.:08:20.

price of alcohol, because of abuse, they announced today that they want

:08:20.:08:25.

to regulate the price on the train operating companies who are charging

:08:25.:08:29.

obscene amounts. And they want to regulate matters with mortgage

:08:29.:08:32.

companies. So it is possible when there is a market system that is not

:08:32.:08:37.

functioning, that is not working properly, for us to step in and sort

:08:37.:08:42.

it out. Damian Green? I think the training sample is interesting.

:08:42.:08:46.

Clearly train companies have monopoly franchises, and because of

:08:46.:08:51.

their particular power than the government can and does regulate

:08:51.:08:57.

that. The simple practical point, not even an economic point, is that

:08:57.:09:01.

the British government does not control the price of oil and gas.

:09:01.:09:05.

They are internationally set. So what do you do? Why have energy

:09:05.:09:12.

companies after Ed Miliband's Beach, a couple of them, volunteered to

:09:13.:09:16.

freeze their prices. They were already in place. They had this low

:09:16.:09:24.

tariff coming. It's only the new customers. It goes to Damian's point

:09:24.:09:33.

that you can freeze prices. Energy prices have been rising everywhere

:09:33.:09:39.

because of the increased demand for natural gas as our own natural gas

:09:39.:09:42.

has been running out, and there has been a huge demand across the

:09:42.:09:45.

world, and that has pushed up energy prices. But at the same time, you,

:09:45.:09:50.

both of you, have done more to push up prices by pricing the climate

:09:50.:09:58.

change act in 2008 under David -- Ed Miliband, supported by the

:09:58.:10:01.

Conservatives, so I don't understand why the premise that -- by Minister

:10:01.:10:05.

is ganging up on him because he voted for it as well. That was at a

:10:05.:10:10.

time of rising energy prices and it has added another £112 to the

:10:10.:10:14.

average household bill. So you are both guilty, I would suggest. We

:10:14.:10:20.

have a decarbonising strategy that will reduce the carbon from fuel by

:10:20.:10:24.

2013. These guys don't want to do it. The jewel adding to the bill in

:10:24.:10:29.

the process. We are talking about the current cost of living crisis.

:10:29.:10:33.

It is a separate issue about reducing the carbon in the fuel.

:10:33.:10:37.

Will here is what you can do. At the moment, on your green taxes, you are

:10:37.:10:40.

making the average household pay, moment, on your green taxes, you are

:10:40.:10:44.

and it did happen under you, because moment, on your green taxes, you are

:10:44.:10:50.

there was Westminster consensus, you are making people on average incomes

:10:50.:10:56.

pay for the electricity subsidies to poorer people because there is part

:10:56.:11:03.

of the green tax is a subsidy to poorer people, so if you really want

:11:03.:11:06.

to do it, pay it out of general taxation which would be more

:11:06.:11:10.

progressive and poorer people's bills would not be so high? It is a

:11:10.:11:14.

combination of taxation and bills would not be so high? It is a

:11:14.:11:16.

individuals having a slight price increase. That is why we said we

:11:16.:11:24.

would sort it out with a bill from 2015 until the beginning of 2017 to

:11:24.:11:27.

sort out the prices people are paying. Hold on a minute. First of

:11:27.:11:32.

all you want to introduce a tougher carbon target than this government,

:11:32.:11:38.

and at the same time you will cut the green taxes? We want to

:11:38.:11:40.

and at the same time you will cut decarbonise by 2013. In the short

:11:40.:11:46.

term, we will bring the bills down by 2017 and we will have a regulator

:11:46.:11:55.

that will be brought in with teeth between 2015 and 2017. At the same

:11:55.:11:58.

time we will sort out the market. But you cannot have a tougher green

:11:58.:12:06.

target and say you are going to cut the green subsidies in the

:12:06.:12:11.

electricity bills. We are though. Since 2009, to give you an example,

:12:11.:12:16.

the amount of money the energy company -- companies have invested

:12:16.:12:23.

in clean energy to 2.9 billion. They are not investing. If they invested

:12:23.:12:27.

in clean energy that is one way the bill can come down. That is an

:12:27.:12:30.

example of holding the energy companies to runs -- ransom. But

:12:30.:12:38.

it's not the same as a price freeze. The company making the biggest

:12:38.:12:42.

profit has invested the lease. The idea that profit leads to investment

:12:42.:12:48.

is not true. -- invested the least. James, you looked puzzled. At some

:12:48.:12:52.

point in the next few months it is clear that the government will

:12:52.:12:56.

promise to reduce energy taxes. At some point that is going to happen.

:12:56.:13:00.

There will be a coalition row over it, but they will achieve it at some

:13:00.:13:06.

point. Would Labour match that? We would have to wait and see. You just

:13:06.:13:13.

said you would. The point is this, you have a situation in the last

:13:13.:13:16.

four years while you guys have been in power, the average household bill

:13:16.:13:20.

has gone up by £300 per year for families and for businesses £1800

:13:20.:13:26.

per year. We would say we would freeze it from 2015 to 2017 and in

:13:26.:13:30.

that period we would have a regulator with teeth and pass a bill

:13:30.:13:34.

to sort out the energy companies. But if you were to reduce green

:13:34.:13:38.

taxes you can do it in a way that distorts the market less because you

:13:38.:13:41.

would not be imposing prices on individual companies. We are

:13:41.:13:47.

committed to having clean energy. We are going to take out the carbon

:13:47.:13:52.

from the energy. You are committed to the green taxes. We are committed

:13:52.:13:59.

to the realistic target. Why would companies invest during a price

:13:59.:14:02.

freeze when they are by your own standard not investing in the way

:14:02.:14:07.

you suggest for clean energy? We were told that companies would leave

:14:07.:14:14.

because of the windfall tax. We were told before 1997 that having the

:14:14.:14:19.

minimum wage would lead to companies going down. None of these

:14:19.:14:25.

scaremongers stories bore fruit. But there have been huge under

:14:25.:14:32.

investment in energy for over 20 years in this country. It has been

:14:32.:14:41.

bad in the both of you. We have not invested in new gas plans. There is

:14:42.:14:45.

no investment going on. That is why we need a fundamental change. You

:14:45.:14:50.

guys are in consensus and do nothing but sit on your hands. Is the

:14:50.:14:56.

Chancellor, because we know James is right, we know what he wants to do,

:14:56.:15:00.

he wants to shoot their fox by saying they will take the green cap

:15:00.:15:04.

taxes away and the bill will fall. It won't just be frozen, it will

:15:04.:15:09.

fall. Can he get them to agree to that? I am sure the Chancellor is

:15:09.:15:13.

persuasive but I should not make his announcement is persuasive but I

:15:13.:15:15.

should not make his announcements for him.

:15:15.:15:25.

Tony Blair called himself a naive, foolish nincompoop for introducing

:15:25.:15:27.

the Freedom of Information Act 13 years ago. He thought the act, which

:15:28.:15:35.

provides access to information held by public authorities, could stop

:15:35.:15:39.

discussion of sensitive issues. Some say it is time Freedom of

:15:39.:15:42.

Information went further and applied to private companies who provide

:15:42.:15:48.

public services. We hear why in this week's Soapbox.

:15:48.:16:04.

I am the Cabinet member for finance in the London Borough of Camden and

:16:04.:16:10.

like all public services across the country we are having to make cuts

:16:10.:16:17.

because of storage. Here in Camden we spend over £400 million buying

:16:17.:16:22.

goods and services from outside the public sector. My fear is that this

:16:22.:16:28.

complex web of private contracts will reduce accountability because

:16:28.:16:32.

it will be less transparent to the taxpayer how this money is spent.

:16:32.:16:36.

This could increase waste and the chances that the taxpayer gets

:16:36.:16:43.

ripped off. Despite delivering millions of pounds worth of public

:16:43.:16:45.

service contracts, and sourcing companies get to dock the public

:16:46.:16:51.

scrutiny we expect, all because private companies are not covered by

:16:51.:16:57.

Freedom of Information. The Freedom of Information Act allows citizens

:16:57.:17:01.

to ask public bodies like the council about any information they

:17:01.:17:08.

hold on any subject. But the Freedom of Information Act only applies to

:17:08.:17:10.

government and not the new generation of private companies

:17:10.:17:14.

delivering public services and that is a big problem. So, it is vital

:17:14.:17:34.

that the Freedom of Information Act is a big problem. So, it is vital

:17:34.:17:37.

is updated to include any funded by the taxpayer, whether it is a

:17:37.:17:43.

private firm, public sector body or a voluntary organisation. Openness

:17:43.:17:48.

is a fundamental safeguard for the taxpayer, especially when every

:17:48.:17:52.

pound has to work as hard as it can. That is why it is time for the

:17:52.:17:55.

private sector to work by public sector rules if they want our

:17:55.:18:00.

contracts. Theo Blackwell joins us now.

:18:00.:18:04.

Is the biggest problem when it comes to scrutinising outsourced companies

:18:04.:18:08.

providing services, particularly if you are a council? There is not a

:18:08.:18:12.

level playing field at the moment between the council, the NHS and

:18:12.:18:15.

level playing field at the moment private providers. What we are

:18:15.:18:19.

asking for is some safeguards. In 2015, there are going to be a large

:18:19.:18:24.

number of cuts to public sector organisations. Camden are visiting

:18:24.:18:28.

between 60 and £70 million. There are changes to the NHS which involve

:18:28.:18:32.

private sector companies. All of these will ask private sector --

:18:32.:18:40.

questions about the relationship and information on citizens can access.

:18:40.:18:50.

The government say they have not done that because information pics

:18:51.:18:57.

closure -- this clover should -- disclosure should be part of their

:18:57.:19:01.

contracts, and it is not. public bodies will be working with each

:19:01.:19:04.

other and we do not want a piecemeal way of dealing with it. We want a

:19:04.:19:09.

standard across the country. In the United States there are clear rules

:19:09.:19:14.

across Freedom of Information and safeguards encouraging

:19:14.:19:22.

whistle-blowing by the public. They get a return in the United States.

:19:22.:19:29.

Why shouldn't private companies, under the same scrutiny? The just a

:19:29.:19:39.

select committee and the Gulf might have looked at it. Everyone agrees

:19:39.:19:45.

that when you look at it, that bit up to be under scrutiny. We have

:19:45.:19:54.

just taken through legislation with the Independent Police Complaints

:19:54.:20:00.

Commission that when companies like G4S are providing police services,

:20:00.:20:05.

they can be investigated by the IPCC. This is different because the

:20:05.:20:09.

contracts signed by the public sector should ensure that the

:20:09.:20:15.

provider provides the information so that the public sector body can be

:20:15.:20:17.

problem held to account. But they that the public sector body can be

:20:17.:20:25.

are not. They should be. The Ministry of Justice said it was

:20:26.:20:29.

overcharged by G4S and circle. The case has been looked at by the

:20:29.:20:33.

Serious Fraud Office but clearly they cannot scrutinise in the way

:20:33.:20:48.

that you say they should. I think the Freedom of Information Act

:20:48.:20:53.

should be extended. I can get information about restraint

:20:53.:21:01.

policies. The private companies will give us manuals, but the public

:21:01.:21:06.

companies will not even know they are doing a public job. Why should

:21:06.:21:11.

some rules apply to them but not these guys. Some of the health

:21:11.:21:16.

service, education, councils, justice, the Home Office is being

:21:16.:21:26.

privatised. As normal citizens need access to no higher taxes are being

:21:26.:21:34.

spent. There needs to be distinction between private work and work for

:21:34.:21:39.

the public sector. We need to know that the public sector work can be

:21:39.:21:45.

brought under question with Freedom of Information. I tried that and it

:21:45.:21:52.

did not work. You could not get the information? That is what needs to

:21:52.:21:58.

be thought about. There is a question about the use of that.

:21:58.:22:05.

Private sector companies will be creating profits from this

:22:05.:22:14.

information. You cannot request information on a private prison but

:22:14.:22:23.

you can on a public one. What has that got to do with legislation? The

:22:23.:22:27.

next Labour Justice Secretary will bring in this act. Please be patient

:22:27.:22:34.

X Mac -- please be patient -- please be patient. Could this be

:22:34.:22:53.

terror the private sector -- geek are the private sector from bidding

:22:53.:22:59.

for public contracts? The private sector seems to have a culture that

:22:59.:23:04.

reflects public service. There is no point in doing something on the

:23:04.:23:08.

cheap if we find out that fraud or waste or ripping off customers

:23:08.:23:14.

happens five years down the line. Hold the front page! Politicians and

:23:14.:23:23.

journalists disagree. Oh, yes, big news. This time, the matter of

:23:24.:23:30.

Britain's free press and how it should be neglected. The Culture

:23:30.:23:34.

Secretary confirmed the government had rejected the present history's

:23:34.:23:38.

plans for regulation designed to toughen up what they do at the

:23:38.:23:42.

moment. The Privy Council meets today to discuss which Royal Charter

:23:42.:23:46.

will win out in this battle. It is very, graded. The scent has already

:23:46.:23:53.

begun, with the newspapers promising they will go to judicial review,

:23:54.:23:59.

even Europe, if the government proceeds in the way it plans.

:23:59.:24:04.

You cannot have a voluntary system where volunteers do not want to

:24:04.:24:09.

volunteer. So, you won't? I think there is the possibility of a

:24:09.:24:13.

judicial review. We could go and see there is the possibility of a

:24:13.:24:19.

what Europe has to say. The idea that papers will roll over and do

:24:19.:24:22.

something that they really passionately do not believe in is

:24:22.:24:26.

unlikely. I would hope that we do not.

:24:26.:24:31.

What do you do if you go ahead with this statutory regulation and no one

:24:32.:24:40.

turns up? It is a Royal Charter, that is different. If it is the law

:24:40.:24:46.

of the land, Royal Charter, in the end one assumes respectable people

:24:46.:24:52.

obey the law. That is not what Roger Alton is saying and he is from The

:24:52.:24:58.

Times. It feels like we are in a negotiation phase. What the editors

:24:58.:25:05.

want to do is use the Human Rights Act to judicially review this and

:25:05.:25:14.

then possibly go to the court of human rights, but others want to

:25:14.:25:16.

abolish the Human Rights Act. But on human rights, but others want to

:25:17.:25:26.

the issue itself, has the judiciary had legal advice on whether its

:25:26.:25:34.

policy, which is to broadly support the statutory Royal Charter, is

:25:34.:25:38.

their legal advice that it would pass muster? It is independent

:25:38.:25:47.

regulation. Have you had legal advice? I am not privy to the advice

:25:47.:25:53.

any party might have had but we are trying to reach a cross-party

:25:53.:26:00.

consensus by this Friday. There is a Westminster consensus. What Maria

:26:00.:26:07.

Miller and Harriet Harman said yesterday was that they have got to

:26:07.:26:11.

try and reach consensus on Friday. I cannot give a running commentary.

:26:11.:26:20.

Let me come to you, has the government taken legal advice that

:26:20.:26:24.

what it proposes would stand judicial review and the European

:26:24.:26:32.

Court in Strasbourg? Is there the right to a free press in the

:26:32.:26:38.

European articles? We have not got to the stage of proposals. Table are

:26:38.:26:42.

wondering why it is taking so long. Maria Miller was saying that there

:26:42.:26:47.

are still negotiations between parties. Article ten of the Human

:26:47.:26:54.

Rights Act, freedom of expression, the mischief the police are worried

:26:54.:27:01.

about is paying exam through damage. It would not be in breach of Article

:27:01.:27:06.

ten because a balancing exercise says freedom of expression trumps

:27:06.:27:13.

privacy. That is not the legal advice that the papers have. One of

:27:13.:27:20.

the leading QCs in the country says, by supporting Parliament's

:27:20.:27:24.

Royal Charter for press regulation to be agreed by the Privy Council,

:27:24.:27:33.

my party is turning its back on a genuinely free press. What is the

:27:33.:27:38.

biggest complaint? That we cannot agree on anything. There is a

:27:38.:27:43.

situation where the three leaders have agreed on the Royal Charter.

:27:43.:27:50.

You journalists are not happy. I know you agree on that. We are

:27:50.:27:55.

trying to find out, what do you do if the press say they will not play

:27:55.:28:00.

with it and they will fight it all the way to Strasbourg? In my view,

:28:00.:28:06.

they are not one homogenous group. There are differences of opinion and

:28:06.:28:10.

I hope by this Friday we will have an agreement. You seldom get the

:28:10.:28:15.

most enlightening part of a public debate in the last few days before

:28:15.:28:21.

agreement is reached. Of course, you all agreed we should invade Iraq as

:28:21.:28:29.

well! Let's give you the answer. The year was 1992. Press your red

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button. The winner is...

:28:36.:28:45.

Thank you for being with us today. I hope you enjoyed it. The one o'clock

:28:45.:28:53.

News is starting on BBC One. We are back tomorrow at noon with the Daily

:28:53.:28:57.

Politics. The clue is in the name.

:28:57.:29:01.

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