Browse content similar to 24/10/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Good afternoon, welcome to the Daily Politics. The union goes back into | :00:39. | :00:43. | |
talks with management in Grangemouth, but will it be enough | :00:44. | :00:48. | |
to save the plant? Cameron and Clegg catch over green levies and gas and | :00:49. | :00:53. | |
electricity, but how much will scrapping them reduce energy bills? | :00:54. | :00:58. | |
And can I say on behalf of the committee that we have found your | :00:59. | :01:02. | |
evidence most unsatisfactory. PC plebs feel the heat from MPs, but | :01:03. | :01:08. | |
still no apology for the man they helped force from office, Andrew | :01:09. | :01:12. | |
Mitchell. And oh, for a simpler age, and | :01:13. | :01:16. | |
overwhelmed white hole holds an e-mail free day. -- Whitehall. | :01:17. | :01:24. | |
All that in the next hour. With us for the whole programme today is | :01:25. | :01:29. | |
political columnist Will Hutton, former editor in chief of the | :01:30. | :01:32. | |
Observer and principal of Hertford College, Oxford, were also works | :01:33. | :01:36. | |
with the Work Foundation, what a long introduction! Let's start with | :01:37. | :01:42. | |
the situation at the oil refinery and petrochemical plant at | :01:43. | :01:44. | |
Grangemouth. Yesterday the company which owns the plant, INEOS, said | :01:45. | :01:48. | |
they would close the petrochemical plant with the future of the | :01:49. | :01:53. | |
refinery on the same site uncertain. Last night Unite, which represents | :01:54. | :01:57. | |
workers at the site indicated they were prepared to agree to new terms | :01:58. | :02:02. | |
and conditions from INEOS. In the last hour, Unite General Secretary | :02:03. | :02:07. | |
Len McCluskey left the talks, saying he was optimistic that the plant | :02:08. | :02:12. | |
would survive. I think I was encouraged by what the First | :02:13. | :02:16. | |
Minister said that the Scottish government are not going to allow | :02:17. | :02:20. | |
this plant to close down, and that is also our position. We are not | :02:21. | :02:24. | |
going to allow this plant to close down. We are not going to allow 800 | :02:25. | :02:29. | |
jobs to go and the community of Grangemouth to become a ghost town. | :02:30. | :02:33. | |
And we are not going to allow the security of Scotland to be put in | :02:34. | :02:38. | |
peril. Scotland correspondent Laura Bicker joins us now from | :02:39. | :02:42. | |
Grangemouth, talks and now continuing, or restarting, I should | :02:43. | :02:47. | |
say, today - how likely is it in your view that INEOS will reverse | :02:48. | :02:52. | |
their decision to close the plant? It is a very difficult one. It is | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
interesting to hear Len McCluskey's use of the word optimistic. When | :02:58. | :03:01. | |
workers left here yesterday, optimism was not any thing that they | :03:02. | :03:05. | |
would have thought when it came to this plant. But the pressure is now | :03:06. | :03:11. | |
ramping up on the company, INEOS. Yesterday you heard from the First | :03:12. | :03:14. | |
Minister, saying that he would not allow this plant to close. This | :03:15. | :03:18. | |
afternoon we expect the Scottish finance secretary, John Swinney, and | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
the Scottish Secretary, Alistair Carmichael, together to have talks | :03:23. | :03:26. | |
at this plant, a sign that both be Scottish Government and the | :03:27. | :03:29. | |
Westminster government are really taking this seriously and working | :03:30. | :03:32. | |
together. So the pressure is now on INEOS. The problem is, this plant, | :03:33. | :03:39. | |
according to INEOS, is losing ?50 million per year, the petrochemical | :03:40. | :03:44. | |
side of it. They claim it needs ?300 million worth of investment, and | :03:45. | :03:47. | |
that is because of the depletion of these North Sea gas supplies, and | :03:48. | :03:52. | |
they want to import gas from America. They need to re-equip the | :03:53. | :03:57. | |
sites to do that, and they say that will cost ?3 million. Now, whether | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
or not these new pay and conditions that the union are agreeing to will | :04:02. | :04:05. | |
allow them to go ahead and do that, that will be something that the | :04:06. | :04:08. | |
shareholders will have a look at. The interesting thing is that the | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
main shareholder is a man called Jim Ratcliffe. He rarely gives | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
interviews, he is a man who trained in Birmingham, and at the weekend he | :04:18. | :04:21. | |
did still a Sunday newspaper that if the workers did not make the right | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
decision, there would be no happy ending for this plant. Certainly, he | :04:27. | :04:33. | |
has carried through his bread. If there were substantial changes to | :04:34. | :04:36. | |
the union position, they would consider it. The pressure, as I | :04:37. | :04:43. | |
said, is ramping up. Hopefully, we will get a clue as to what will | :04:44. | :04:45. | |
happen then. The union clearly did not believe | :04:46. | :05:00. | |
INEOS, when it said it was losing money hand over fist, but now it | :05:01. | :05:05. | |
seems like the union is prepared to accept those demands. They certainly | :05:06. | :05:10. | |
overplayed their hand. INEOS and Jim Ratcliffe, the company he built, by | :05:11. | :05:16. | |
buying petrochemical plants and oil refinery is around the world that | :05:17. | :05:19. | |
nobody wants, putting it together and making them work better, I | :05:20. | :05:22. | |
suspect he would, if you could, hold on to petrochemical plant. So in | :05:23. | :05:27. | |
that sense, the union got that right. INEOS is in an invidious | :05:28. | :05:34. | |
position. The kind of cuts to pay and bonuses and in particular the | :05:35. | :05:38. | |
final salary pension were swingeing, unbelievable. Better than losing | :05:39. | :05:43. | |
jobs? Better than losing jobs. We have a system of industrial | :05:44. | :05:46. | |
relations in Britain that allows a situation where the union has to | :05:47. | :05:51. | |
take on a problem side by side, rather than bargaining across a | :05:52. | :05:54. | |
whole industry. That allows the union and employer to fall into this | :05:55. | :05:58. | |
kind of pit, but the straight answer to your question is the union | :05:59. | :06:02. | |
overplayed their hand. Do you think they will reverse the decision? | :06:03. | :06:06. | |
Despite all the big words from any as, if the union does agree to the | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
new pay and conditions, will they say, all right, we will keep it | :06:11. | :06:15. | |
open? I think Kabul would like to keep it open. There was a sense that | :06:16. | :06:22. | |
they would... That is their business model, buying these low margin, | :06:23. | :06:28. | |
high-volume parts of the petrochemical and chemical industry | :06:29. | :06:30. | |
worldwide that nobody wants, running them rather well. They have a very | :06:31. | :06:37. | |
flat management team, and they go in hard on the workforce in the way | :06:38. | :06:41. | |
they are doing here. That is how they do it. Whether or not, after | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
all that has been said, that will be seen as a climb-down by them is | :06:47. | :06:51. | |
another matter. I also think, by the way, Len McCluskey and Alex Salmond | :06:52. | :06:54. | |
saying they are not going to let us close - actually, they have no | :06:55. | :06:58. | |
instruments. The decision is entirely INEOS's, not theirs. Is | :06:59. | :07:06. | |
there another buyer out there? There is only INEOS, people want to sell | :07:07. | :07:11. | |
these plans, not by them. One of the problems is the rise of shale gas in | :07:12. | :07:15. | |
the United States, and there is too much refining capacity in the | :07:16. | :07:18. | |
reviewer been union, so actually these plans are on the edge of | :07:19. | :07:30. | |
utility. In the European Union. So they are impotent, Alex Salmond and | :07:31. | :07:34. | |
Len McCluskey, in that sense. That is my view, unless they come up with | :07:35. | :07:39. | |
serious money to help the old Grangemouth complex retool around | :07:40. | :07:44. | |
imported shale gas. Now, that was in play, kind of in the weeks after | :07:45. | :07:49. | |
this, and what Jim Ratcliffe wanted was that money from government plus | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
the deal from the union, and they thought they might have enough to go | :07:54. | :07:57. | |
with. Let's see if that can be reinstated. I have to say, one thing | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
that does need to be said, we all talk about our kids being less well | :08:02. | :08:05. | |
off than ourselves, we all mourn the end of final salary schemes, we'll | :08:06. | :08:09. | |
think about how tough it is going to be ten, 20, 30 years' time. This | :08:10. | :08:15. | |
fight is everyone's fight, and Unite are going to lose it. | :08:16. | :08:19. | |
Time for our daily quiz, and the question for today is what gift did | :08:20. | :08:24. | |
the cabinet give to Prince George as a christening present? Was it a | :08:25. | :08:29. | |
teddy bear, a pint toy box, a signed photo of the Cabinet, what every | :08:30. | :08:36. | |
newborn wants, or a chunk of national debt in the form of a | :08:37. | :08:39. | |
government bond? At the end of the show, Will Hutton will give us the | :08:40. | :08:43. | |
right and is a! You have got time to think about it! What is the best way | :08:44. | :08:47. | |
to cut energy bills? Yesterday the Prime Minister announced he wanted | :08:48. | :08:51. | |
to roll back on so-called green taxes that added to the cost of our | :08:52. | :08:55. | |
bills. This morning the Deputy Prime Minister, Nick Clegg, said he | :08:56. | :08:58. | |
disagreed with that approach but confirmed that the Government was | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
reviewing ways to bring down bills. The debate about how to bring down | :09:03. | :09:05. | |
the cost of living is the number-one talking point in Westminster. Ed | :09:06. | :09:12. | |
Miliband has the agenda with his plan to freeze gas and electricity | :09:13. | :09:15. | |
prices until the start of 2017. Former Prime Minister John Major | :09:16. | :09:19. | |
added fuel to the fire on Tuesday when he suggested that energy | :09:20. | :09:22. | |
companies should be hit with a one-off windfall tax on profits. | :09:23. | :09:27. | |
Yesterday, David Cameron said he wanted to roll back some of the | :09:28. | :09:30. | |
green regulations and charges that are putting up bills. But what are | :09:31. | :09:35. | |
they? And how much do they cost as? According to the department of any, | :09:36. | :09:39. | |
about 9% of the average dual-fuel bill is made up of green charges. -- | :09:40. | :09:45. | |
department of energy. However, the government says these measures will | :09:46. | :09:51. | |
actually help to reduce bills by up to 11% by 2020. This morning Nick | :09:52. | :09:55. | |
Clegg into that other ways the obligations could be met. We will | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
provide money to low income households funded from these levies. | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
We could perhaps fund that through general government expenditure, but | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
one way or another, we need to help those low income families with their | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
fuel bills this winter. I don't want us to turn our backs on the poorest | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
in society, the thousands of people who are employed in the green | :10:18. | :10:20. | |
renewable energy sector, I don't want us to turn our backs or the | :10:21. | :10:25. | |
sake of future generations on the environment. But of course we can | :10:26. | :10:28. | |
strike a balance, we will provide solutions to this as a government, | :10:29. | :10:31. | |
and we will do it in the weeks and months to come. | :10:32. | :10:36. | |
With us now is the Conservative MP and Parliamentary Private Secretary | :10:37. | :10:39. | |
to the climate change minister, Greg Barker, welcome to the programme. | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
Were you taken by surprise when the Prime Minister announced he wanted | :10:45. | :10:46. | |
to roll back some of the green regulations and charges? I don't | :10:47. | :10:51. | |
think there is anybody within the coalition that is not concerned | :10:52. | :10:57. | |
about rising... I asked if you were surprised. No, these were the things | :10:58. | :11:02. | |
that were ensuring that low income families at the biggest amount of | :11:03. | :11:05. | |
opportunity to lower their costs, to ensure we are getting the best value | :11:06. | :11:12. | |
from our energy sector. So I was, you know, the cost of living is a | :11:13. | :11:16. | |
big issue, particularly in a constituency like mine. So green | :11:17. | :11:20. | |
levies to put a burden on consumers? Well, if you look at the | :11:21. | :11:24. | |
fuel poverty element of the levy, actually, what that is doing is | :11:25. | :11:31. | |
taking 250 thousand families out of fuel poverty this year alone. -- | :11:32. | :11:35. | |
250,000. These are long-term investments, but we have to look at | :11:36. | :11:41. | |
the vet facts very clearly, because next year we will be affecting | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
?750,000. It is delivering real benefits to real families. So why | :11:47. | :11:51. | |
does the Conservative prime Minster want to roll them back? I think one | :11:52. | :11:57. | |
wants to review whether they should be on bills, general taxation, there | :11:58. | :12:00. | |
is a lot of debate about that, but the fuel poverty element is a very | :12:01. | :12:06. | |
important policy that both parties in the coalition are very committed | :12:07. | :12:12. | |
to. It was a U-turn, wasn't it? He is under pressure from Ed Miliband | :12:13. | :12:15. | |
who has been leading the debate on cost of living, and he panicked. I | :12:16. | :12:21. | |
absolutely do not believe that. We have taken ?178 of everybody's | :12:22. | :12:30. | |
bills. How have you done that? The renewable heat incentive was put | :12:31. | :12:34. | |
onto everyone's Energy Bill, and that is now in general taxation. | :12:35. | :12:38. | |
Every single government levy, government taxation needs to be | :12:39. | :12:43. | |
reviewed, and how it is impacting the lowest income families in our | :12:44. | :12:47. | |
country. So you want to roll back the judges for bills and put them on | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
general taxation? These are things that are being discussed at the | :12:53. | :12:56. | |
moment, but the issue that we are not concerned about energy bills as | :12:57. | :12:59. | |
they had the doorstep in constituencies is very much at the | :13:00. | :13:04. | |
forefront of the Prime Minister's mind and the Department of Energy | :13:05. | :13:07. | |
and Climate Change. But it has to go somewhere, you are arguing? There is | :13:08. | :13:13. | |
fuel poverty that is crucial, and we need to ensure we are getting better | :13:14. | :13:16. | |
value for money out of the levies which are being implemented by the | :13:17. | :13:20. | |
energy companies, who needs to ensure they are delivering when they | :13:21. | :13:24. | |
can. I mean, the difference between what the Conservatives are offering | :13:25. | :13:27. | |
as part of the coalition, even though the Liberal Democrats do not | :13:28. | :13:31. | |
agree with it, and what Labour is proposing is these were actually cut | :13:32. | :13:36. | |
bills, not just freeze prices, this will actually bring down energy | :13:37. | :13:39. | |
bills. Well, there are three elements to these subsidies. One is | :13:40. | :13:46. | |
the subsidies to renewables, to the nuclear power plants that are going | :13:47. | :13:51. | |
to be built, and that is not going to go, I don't think. Then you | :13:52. | :13:56. | |
cannot do that, otherwise you will not get the investment. So that is | :13:57. | :13:59. | |
one element that is going to stick in this, the ?112 that is talked | :14:00. | :14:04. | |
about. The actual amount that can be taken out of bills and put into | :14:05. | :14:09. | |
general taxation which, by the way, is the proper place for it - if you | :14:10. | :14:13. | |
are looking at public interest things like having more efficient | :14:14. | :14:17. | |
homes, particularly for poor people, it is a good thing for Britain if we | :14:18. | :14:22. | |
have energy-efficient housing stock, and the question is, if you make the | :14:23. | :14:26. | |
lowest pay the same tax as the highest paid, it is very regressive. | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
So it is good to see this being discussed. I would not lay a lot of | :14:32. | :14:34. | |
money on actually bills being reduced by more than ten or 20 | :14:35. | :14:38. | |
quid, frankly, that is the maximum you could take out. There is a small | :14:39. | :14:45. | |
amount which can be rolled back, in that sense. The essential point is | :14:46. | :14:51. | |
that when the coalition came into government there wasn't a department | :14:52. | :14:55. | |
looking at energy efficiency. There is now a whole unit. If we can | :14:56. | :15:02. | |
reduce our leaky housing stock, if we can permanently invest in the | :15:03. | :15:05. | |
infrastructure of our homes, we will start to reduce bills. Metering. By | :15:06. | :15:15. | |
30%. Smart metering, I think it's a really important point. Over the | :15:16. | :15:20. | |
next decade, every home in Britain will have a smart meter you can | :15:21. | :15:23. | |
control, hopefully with your mobile phone. You can decide where you want | :15:24. | :15:28. | |
to buy your energy from commerce which quickly. Smart metering is not | :15:29. | :15:37. | |
something we should retreat from. The amount of money which can | :15:38. | :15:40. | |
actually be taken out without sacrificing some policies, is very | :15:41. | :15:45. | |
low. How many properties of hard work committed under the Green | :15:46. | :15:51. | |
Deal? 250,000. The answer is 12 actually. That's under the Green | :15:52. | :15:58. | |
Deal finance. 80,000 people have had their homes assessed, for energy | :15:59. | :16:02. | |
efficiency measures. But having the work actually done? Many have taken | :16:03. | :16:09. | |
measures to make their houses more efficient. Haven't gone into the | :16:10. | :16:14. | |
finance part of the Green Deal. But they have accessed energy. It is the | :16:15. | :16:20. | |
biggest roll-out of energy efficiency measures across our | :16:21. | :16:24. | |
housing stock in generations, if not decades. Wright, the Prime Minister | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
has done this to draw on the dividing line with the Liberal | :16:30. | :16:33. | |
Democrats, hasn't it? Not at all. There's clear understanding that we | :16:34. | :16:41. | |
are concerned about bills. These are things we are committed to | :16:42. | :16:45. | |
addressing. So I don't think there is a dividing line there, at all. I | :16:46. | :16:52. | |
am self named as a turquoise Tory. The Miller band price freeze will | :16:53. | :16:59. | |
only work because companies will have two hedge -- Ed Miliband. | :17:00. | :17:04. | |
That'll be a tax on their profits. Frozen energy prices. Isn't that a | :17:05. | :17:11. | |
better idea than John Major's tax? Not at all. Freezing energy bills | :17:12. | :17:15. | |
first of all, it's going to ensure energy companies hike their bills | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
up. Or they hike them up at the end. It's a false solution. All it | :17:21. | :17:25. | |
does is put it on pause, not looking at the competition we need to set | :17:26. | :17:29. | |
up. OK, thank you. Green levies haven't been the only source of | :17:30. | :17:32. | |
coalition tensions over recent days. This morning, Nick Clegg has been | :17:33. | :17:35. | |
making a well-trailed speech in which he's stated his opposition to | :17:36. | :17:39. | |
some of freedoms enjoyed by free schools in England, including their | :17:40. | :17:41. | |
ability to hire teachers without Qualified Teaching Status. I support | :17:42. | :17:48. | |
free schools and academies but not with exemptions from minimum | :17:49. | :17:52. | |
standards. That is the bit I want to see changed and that will be clearly | :17:53. | :17:57. | |
set out in our next general election manifesto. There is nothing, | :17:58. | :18:03. | |
absolutely nothing, inconsistent in believing that greater school | :18:04. | :18:07. | |
autonomy can be married to certain core standards for all. And I'm | :18:08. | :18:13. | |
totally unapologetic that the Lib Dems have our own ideas about how we | :18:14. | :18:17. | |
do that. And I'm joined now by the the Liberal Democrat deputy leader, | :18:18. | :18:22. | |
Simon Hughes. What is the Lib Dem policy on free schools? We support | :18:23. | :18:27. | |
the idea people being able to set up schools but we think they should | :18:28. | :18:31. | |
have minimum standards, they should be inspected by Ofsted, the | :18:32. | :18:34. | |
regulator. They should have qualified teachers and they ensure | :18:35. | :18:38. | |
that the curriculum taught in all schools in England is taught in | :18:39. | :18:43. | |
them, too. Why is Nick Clegg only bring this up now? The idea of | :18:44. | :18:47. | |
having unqualified teachers was agreed two years ago and nothing was | :18:48. | :18:51. | |
said by Nick Clegg publicly and it's come as a total surprise to the | :18:52. | :18:56. | |
Conservatives. We had our policy which has always argued that we | :18:57. | :18:59. | |
should have qualified teachers. We've always argued that we should | :19:00. | :19:03. | |
have an agreed curriculum. We negotiated with the Conservatives an | :19:04. | :19:06. | |
agreement in which that wasn't confirmed as part of the coalition | :19:07. | :19:11. | |
policy. The Tories wanted a much greater freedom of the education | :19:12. | :19:22. | |
sector. And Nick Clegg was happy forward in the last two years. We | :19:23. | :19:24. | |
negotiated and it wasn't our policy. It didn't come from our side of the | :19:25. | :19:27. | |
coalition. Nick is very clear and reaffirmed this this year that we | :19:28. | :19:32. | |
want a change to do the idea of free school management to make sure we | :19:33. | :19:36. | |
have qualified teachers. So parents have a guarantee, and there is the | :19:37. | :19:39. | |
same core curriculum taught there so parents have enough choice. That was | :19:40. | :19:46. | |
a dramatic change by what was publicly said by David laws. One of | :19:47. | :19:51. | |
the key tenets of freedom, freedom to set your own curriculum, if you | :19:52. | :19:54. | |
like, and freedom to take on the teachers you want, whether they are | :19:55. | :19:59. | |
qualified or not. That is the core principle of free schools which | :20:00. | :20:02. | |
David laws was signed up for. We have debated many times, the | :20:03. | :20:06. | |
coalition parties have their own positions and we win some arguments. | :20:07. | :20:13. | |
But you are not clear this. We were. Never policy saying we take | :20:14. | :20:19. | |
everybody out of tax up to ?10,000. It's become coalition policy because | :20:20. | :20:23. | |
we agreed it. Free schools came from the Tories, Nick is reinstating the | :20:24. | :20:31. | |
parents guarantee that we will give free schools greater success. Do you | :20:32. | :20:36. | |
think it was a mistake to take the family didn't agree with the | :20:37. | :20:40. | |
government 's court bans on this? It's hypocritical, if you feel your | :20:41. | :20:44. | |
schools minister helped design the policy, has stood by the policy, | :20:45. | :20:48. | |
publicly, in the last two weeks. Didn't say anything about the | :20:49. | :20:51. | |
problem with unqualified teachers and yet, here we have this from Nick | :20:52. | :20:56. | |
Clegg. It looks hypocritical. I don't think it looks hypocritical at | :20:57. | :21:02. | |
all. I'm a trustee of a secondary school and I don't think parents and | :21:03. | :21:04. | |
teachers must understand this at all. It's a department led by | :21:05. | :21:09. | |
conservatives, Michael Gove, and is number two is a Liberal Democrat, | :21:10. | :21:12. | |
and they have agreed between them what to do in this coalition | :21:13. | :21:16. | |
government that is what the Liberal Democrats want to do in the next | :21:17. | :21:20. | |
Parliament. If you remove the exemptions from minimum standards, | :21:21. | :21:26. | |
the heart of the case for free schools, what is the point of it? | :21:27. | :21:32. | |
What is the point of creating this instability in the education system | :21:33. | :21:38. | |
when you already have academies? I understand the case for having many | :21:39. | :21:43. | |
runners and riders, but, actually, once you move the exemptions, I'm | :21:44. | :21:47. | |
not sure what you are left with. I'm a huge fan of free schools, | :21:48. | :21:52. | |
personally. In my own constituency. You think there are two idea | :21:53. | :21:58. | |
logical? They are too big a risk of parents but there are good ones and | :21:59. | :22:02. | |
bad ones. There is one which is doing well and one struggling in my | :22:03. | :22:07. | |
constituency. The answer to your question as you allow anybody to | :22:08. | :22:10. | |
come forward with a proposal to set up a school, in order to challenge | :22:11. | :22:15. | |
the supremacy of either the local education authority or the local | :22:16. | :22:26. | |
Christian academies. There is, I think, watching the fragmentation of | :22:27. | :22:34. | |
a national system, and parents are left navigating in high degrees of | :22:35. | :22:38. | |
uncertainty. You have no idea who's going to run a free schools. You | :22:39. | :22:42. | |
have no idea who's going to be around. There's no underwriting of | :22:43. | :22:50. | |
it whatsoever because... That's why rolling back on the reforms. I just | :22:51. | :22:55. | |
think, I am for challenging incumbents, monopoly, but there's a | :22:56. | :23:03. | |
point we have to say these are careers and lives at stake. I have a | :23:04. | :23:10. | |
constituency in which we have all these issues bubbling around. I have | :23:11. | :23:15. | |
argued we need new school provisions and it's better you get an existing | :23:16. | :23:20. | |
provider to expand if you have a good reputation because it gives | :23:21. | :23:23. | |
security. This is about making sure all the providers under laws have | :23:24. | :23:29. | |
minimum guarantees to parents. You and labour are at one on this. You | :23:30. | :23:34. | |
have got to guarantee it's going to be there for ten years. Once you do | :23:35. | :23:38. | |
that, how was it free? In what way is it free? There's only 174 free | :23:39. | :23:44. | |
school so far. Let's see how many more,. A lot, the private sector | :23:45. | :23:52. | |
schools started off as independent creations because somebody thought | :23:53. | :23:56. | |
we need to have a school here and they have done very well | :23:57. | :24:01. | |
academically. Just briefly... Hang on... It sounds exactly the same. | :24:02. | :24:05. | |
Before I let you go, green taxes, did you know David Cameron is going | :24:06. | :24:09. | |
to announce a new policy to announce a deposit of rollbacks that a | :24:10. | :24:16. | |
rollback of this? I was surprised about point but not surprised in the | :24:17. | :24:21. | |
Tories. Are we don't have this from now in, various sides of the | :24:22. | :24:26. | |
coalition... Let me answer the previous question. A lot of Tories | :24:27. | :24:29. | |
are sceptical of green things, even though the Tory party did have an | :24:30. | :24:34. | |
argument saying vote Green before. We are traditionally a Green party, | :24:35. | :24:37. | |
and environmental party, committed to renewables and all those things, | :24:38. | :24:41. | |
so we're trying to make sure the coalition is secured about that. I | :24:42. | :24:47. | |
think in the end, there may be adjustments in whether taxation | :24:48. | :24:51. | |
float falls. Would you be happy to see it on general taxation? If we | :24:52. | :24:55. | |
don't invest continually in renewables, we don't give ourselves | :24:56. | :24:59. | |
good energy sources which are good for climate and the pilot that | :25:00. | :25:06. | |
planet. That planet. Simon Hughes, thank you. European Leaders are | :25:07. | :25:09. | |
travelling to Brussels this morning for a European Union Summit. But the | :25:10. | :25:13. | |
the agenda there has been rather overshadowed by revelations that the | :25:14. | :25:16. | |
US National Security Agency may have eavesdropped on the German | :25:17. | :25:18. | |
Chancellor Angela Merkel's mobile telephone calls. I'm joined now from | :25:19. | :25:22. | |
the summit by our political correspondent Iain Watson. Is there | :25:23. | :25:29. | |
a theory in Bill and about what has happened in terms of allegations of | :25:30. | :25:33. | |
eavesdropping on Angela Merkel's calls? Yes, she said to be livid | :25:34. | :25:39. | |
about this. She spoke to Barack Obama about it and despite a | :25:40. | :25:43. | |
telephone call, presumably not monitored, she clearly wasn't happy. | :25:44. | :25:49. | |
So much so, the American ambassador has been summoned to a meeting with | :25:50. | :25:57. | |
the German Foreign Minister. Angela Merkel has been accused of not | :25:58. | :26:04. | |
taking this seriously. She said she has got no idea how insecure their | :26:05. | :26:11. | |
messages have been. It's in danger of overshadowing this EU summit | :26:12. | :26:14. | |
because the European Commissioner in charge of the internal market has | :26:15. | :26:18. | |
said that the internal market has said that this shows Europe | :26:19. | :26:21. | |
shouldn't be dependent on America any longer and should create its own | :26:22. | :26:25. | |
digital infrastructure. Data cloud which the Americans can't penetrate. | :26:26. | :26:29. | |
Although this isn't officially on the agenda, believe it or not, there | :26:30. | :26:33. | |
will be a session on data protection and on the Digital economy so it's | :26:34. | :26:37. | |
inevitable it will be discussed. There are concerns from France but | :26:38. | :26:41. | |
the extent of US monitoring there. Theory on behalf of the Chancellor | :26:42. | :26:48. | |
Angela Merkel. -- fury. What about David Cameron? Cutting red tape. | :26:49. | :26:54. | |
Absolutely. He might be uncomfortable if he gets drawn into | :26:55. | :26:59. | |
a debate on security given the role of GCHQ. He wants to talk about | :27:00. | :27:04. | |
cutting red tape, he wants to hold Brussels's feature to the fire. He | :27:05. | :27:09. | |
will be flanked by two members of his business task force. They are | :27:10. | :27:14. | |
puzzled by this because they have been getting rid of 5000 regulations | :27:15. | :27:19. | |
in the last five years and, in addition to that, David Cameron is | :27:20. | :27:22. | |
happy to talk about deregulation across the EU but hasn't talked at | :27:23. | :27:26. | |
all about bringing powers back from Brussels. He hasn't talked about | :27:27. | :27:30. | |
repatriation of powers and saying there are certain things Brussels | :27:31. | :27:34. | |
shouldn't be doing. He says it got no idea which powers he once | :27:35. | :27:37. | |
returned to the UK and he's trying to help deregulatory the European | :27:38. | :27:41. | |
economy to boost competitiveness. Thank you very much. Should Angela | :27:42. | :27:47. | |
Merkel really be surprised that America is listening to everybody? I | :27:48. | :27:54. | |
think it is a surprise, actually. She is the de facto leader of Europe | :27:55. | :27:59. | |
at the moment and the idea that your biggest ally, the USA, their | :28:00. | :28:04. | |
security agency is aided and abetted by GCHQ, listening to mobile phone | :28:05. | :28:13. | |
calls. Goodness, it's gobsmacking, I think. Actually, a lot of talk in | :28:14. | :28:20. | |
Britain about press regulation and we mustn't have the Leviathan | :28:21. | :28:28. | |
sitting behind us with the recommendations. But here is | :28:29. | :28:34. | |
Leviathan. Sitting across, not just Angela Merkel's and Francois | :28:35. | :28:41. | |
Hollande's but also David Cameron's, too. I think it's a | :28:42. | :28:47. | |
major, major, major issue. It's important because the manner in | :28:48. | :28:54. | |
which it's done, there is no accountability, no framework in | :28:55. | :28:59. | |
which it's done. What do you say David Cameron accusing the guardian | :29:00. | :29:03. | |
of linking -- leaking that information that they were | :29:04. | :29:06. | |
threatening national security? If you are an editor, and I'm on the | :29:07. | :29:25. | |
Observer and the Guardian, you can either be duty-bound to put into the | :29:26. | :29:29. | |
public domain. Even if it was a threat to national security? You | :29:30. | :29:38. | |
know, you can't take an absolutist position that everything must be put | :29:39. | :29:44. | |
into the public domain without any attempt... That's not been the | :29:45. | :29:52. | |
Guardian's position. But, I mean, putting into the public domain, the | :29:53. | :29:58. | |
NSA has this extensive surveillance on e-mail traffic, whether or not it | :29:59. | :30:05. | |
aggregated, and there's no framework of accountability, it may or may not | :30:06. | :30:13. | |
be alerted by a Labour minister, come on. This is big potatoes. It's | :30:14. | :30:18. | |
important it is discussed and actor. It's going to be even more | :30:19. | :30:29. | |
after the news today. Back in 1981, more than 360 concurred that | :30:30. | :30:32. | |
Thatcherite policies would end in financial calamity. Offence are | :30:33. | :30:38. | |
generally held to have proved them wrong. -- events. A similar debate | :30:39. | :30:43. | |
has been occurring over George Osborne's prescription for the | :30:44. | :30:46. | |
economy. Those arguing that his austerity package is similarly | :30:47. | :30:50. | |
flawed had felt vindicated, but have recent signs of promising growth | :30:51. | :30:54. | |
changed the economic weather? Here is David. | :30:55. | :31:01. | |
Cast your mind back to 1981, Princess died's wedding, the Brixton | :31:02. | :31:09. | |
riots, and 364 economists signing a letter to the I'm saying that the | :31:10. | :31:12. | |
government economic policy would end in disaster. -- letter to the | :31:13. | :31:19. | |
times. Quite the reverse now, where we still have had legions of | :31:20. | :31:23. | |
economists saying that the present Conservative government's economic | :31:24. | :31:27. | |
plans will end in tears, or at least they did. One has to be flexible. | :31:28. | :31:33. | |
George Osborne is, I think, being crazily inflexible. Of late, things | :31:34. | :31:38. | |
have been looking up. His best news is that the economic recovery is | :31:39. | :31:42. | |
finally picking up speed and we are seeing strong economic growth, | :31:43. | :31:46. | |
employment rising, unemployment falling, consumer confidence rising, | :31:47. | :31:50. | |
public sector borrowing falling. He has had a raft of good news. That | :31:51. | :31:56. | |
has allowed economist on the other side of the document to settle a few | :31:57. | :32:00. | |
scores on the Chancellor's Bihar. I think his detractors were wrong from | :32:01. | :32:04. | |
the outset. If he had not reduced government borrowing, we could have | :32:05. | :32:07. | |
ended up in the situation that Japan is in today with 20 years of | :32:08. | :32:10. | |
increasing government borrowing to try to get economic growth going, | :32:11. | :32:14. | |
but it has failed and it has now got a national debt of 250% of national | :32:15. | :32:19. | |
income. Britain could have ended up in that position is George Osborne | :32:20. | :32:23. | |
had taken the advice of his detractors. I wonder who he is | :32:24. | :32:28. | |
thinking of... There is nothing credible about a plan that leads to | :32:29. | :32:39. | |
a double-dip recession, to thousands of businesses going bust, to 1 | :32:40. | :32:42. | |
million young people out of work, billions wasted on soaring benefits, | :32:43. | :32:44. | |
borrowing going up, not down. That is not credible, that is just plain | :32:45. | :32:47. | |
wrong. But was it all a cunning plan, or did George gets lucky? It | :32:48. | :32:50. | |
is hard for us to tell whether people were wrong to question his | :32:51. | :32:55. | |
strategy, or has his timing been quite fortunate and things have come | :32:56. | :33:00. | |
together for him very conveniently ahead of the general election? It is | :33:01. | :33:03. | |
hard to know in retrospect how the economy would have done if we had | :33:04. | :33:08. | |
not imposed those cuts, those tax rises. It might have done better, | :33:09. | :33:11. | |
consumer demand would have been stronger, but equally bond markets | :33:12. | :33:15. | |
might have taken fright, we might have become the next Greece. | :33:16. | :33:20. | |
Economic iTunes are rarely settled definitively. Fans of us there at | :33:21. | :33:22. | |
a... Liam Halligan of the Telegraph joins | :33:23. | :33:37. | |
me now, Will Hutton is still here. Last year you called George Osborne | :33:38. | :33:42. | |
the kamikaze Chancellor, were you wrong? I think I called the kamikaze | :33:43. | :33:46. | |
Chancellor rather earlier than that. Look, economies have cycles, | :33:47. | :33:51. | |
they go up and down, that is one of the rhythms of economic life. I | :33:52. | :33:58. | |
remember, back in 2010, I had to make a decision about when I thought | :33:59. | :34:02. | |
levels of output would get back to where they were in 2008. And you | :34:03. | :34:06. | |
know, normally, the great recession of the 1930s took four years, and | :34:07. | :34:11. | |
the office of budget responsible to and others would say that we would | :34:12. | :34:18. | |
get back to those 2008 levels in 2012. -- the Office for Budget | :34:19. | :34:21. | |
Responsibility. What I saw in his first budget, I thought it would | :34:22. | :34:24. | |
take longer than that, and it has taken longer than that, and what | :34:25. | :34:29. | |
happened was, he has taken his foot off deficit reduction in the last 12 | :34:30. | :34:33. | |
or 18 months, it is stable, and there has been a renewed reduction. | :34:34. | :34:39. | |
The way I see it, it has been 100% validated. It has lasted six years, | :34:40. | :34:45. | |
not four, the longest in 100 years. When he actually has a pause in it, | :34:46. | :34:49. | |
we get some kind of recovery, and a snapback is what we were always | :34:50. | :34:53. | |
going to get, and we are watching that. The question is what follows | :34:54. | :34:58. | |
after the snap back. I am surely will agree 100%! My hero! Was George | :34:59. | :35:06. | |
Osborne just lucky? Jo, I am not going to be painted into austerity | :35:07. | :35:12. | |
versus growth, as a defender of the coalition by Will or anybody else. | :35:13. | :35:17. | |
This is the economic reality. Yes, growth is going to be better than we | :35:18. | :35:20. | |
have seen. We have just had two consecutive quarters of growth for | :35:21. | :35:26. | |
the first time since mid-2011, we are about to get a third, but it is | :35:27. | :35:31. | |
a very long way from a recovery. I have serious problems with the UK's | :35:32. | :35:35. | |
economic policy mix. We are still running a very big trade deficit, | :35:36. | :35:40. | |
the biggest in 30 or 40 years. That has carried on into this year. The | :35:41. | :35:43. | |
money that we are borrowing is actually bigger than the increase in | :35:44. | :35:47. | |
nominal GDP. We have credit card lending, the highest it has been for | :35:48. | :35:53. | |
all but one month in the last 11 years. Does that mean Will was | :35:54. | :35:59. | |
right? The austerity policies... It does not at all, it does not mean he | :36:00. | :36:04. | |
is right at all, but it is not as if you are either for austerity or | :36:05. | :36:08. | |
against it. What I am saying, what I am saying is that the growth that we | :36:09. | :36:13. | |
are seeing, yes, it is great we have got some growth, that there will be | :36:14. | :36:17. | |
a little bit more investments now, but we are all being extremely | :36:18. | :36:21. | |
complacent. The UK economy has not turned a corner. That is my | :36:22. | :36:26. | |
position! The gilts market has been propped up by printed money. We are | :36:27. | :36:29. | |
doing more to increase borrowing, that would make the situation worse. | :36:30. | :36:35. | |
Full to I have to say, for 30 years, I have been trying to argue that | :36:36. | :36:43. | |
Keynesian economics is not about the doctrine of permanently having | :36:44. | :36:47. | |
budget deficits. That was not what he argued. But you were for spending | :36:48. | :36:54. | |
more in 2010? I was in favour of reproducing, in 2010, what we did | :36:55. | :37:00. | |
after the IMF crisis in the 1970s. We took eight years to get back to | :37:01. | :37:04. | |
budget balance then, and my view was we should take eight years to do | :37:05. | :37:09. | |
it... It will be ten! It would have been much better, if we had declared | :37:10. | :37:16. | |
that before, in 2010, than to do what was done, which was utterly | :37:17. | :37:22. | |
unnerving. There has been some savage cuts in local government... | :37:23. | :37:26. | |
They have not carried out all the cuts they said they would in the | :37:27. | :37:32. | |
timescale. Jo, our national debt is going to increase by 50% in the next | :37:33. | :37:37. | |
four years. He in Westminster, everyone focuses on the deficit, but | :37:38. | :37:41. | |
it is about the debt, which is massively increasing. How much more | :37:42. | :37:50. | |
can we bear? Of course, it is about dead in a larger sense than that. -- | :37:51. | :37:58. | |
debt. The story is about private debt, much more than public debt. | :37:59. | :38:02. | |
The story is about an economy which does not have, as you have correctly | :38:03. | :38:06. | |
identified, it does not have a strong trades of goods sector, to | :38:07. | :38:11. | |
sell services overseas. There has been no rebalancing. The response by | :38:12. | :38:15. | |
our economy to this big devaluation, the biggest in our history, has been | :38:16. | :38:21. | |
unbelievably disappointing. Deed George Osborne, in the rhetoric he | :38:22. | :38:25. | |
used, choke off consumer demand early? We are never going to know | :38:26. | :38:38. | |
categorically, whether we would have had growth last year or the year | :38:39. | :38:41. | |
before, whether there was a stimulus undertaken by Labour, if they had | :38:42. | :38:43. | |
been in power, or whether George Osborne was right to try to shrink | :38:44. | :38:46. | |
the state and that growth has come back, albeit anaemic league. Did he | :38:47. | :38:49. | |
joke of consumer demand? We can never know, and all I would say, for | :38:50. | :38:51. | |
all the political parlour games that we are engaged in, even in this | :38:52. | :38:54. | |
interview, the reality is that we have seen in this country, in | :38:55. | :38:58. | |
numerical terms, the biggest Keynes Ian boost in our history. Because | :38:59. | :39:07. | |
public spending has continued. A smart guy like you, one of the | :39:08. | :39:12. | |
younger heroes... You could feel and insult coming! Would I debt?! It is | :39:13. | :39:17. | |
all about getting ahead of the curve. The idea of having crisis | :39:18. | :39:25. | |
conditions, like in 2008- 10, is to get ahead of what happened, and the | :39:26. | :39:30. | |
reason that Dedham went up, we got behind the curve, so the dynamic of | :39:31. | :39:36. | |
this. You defended, for years and years and years... Absolutely not, | :39:37. | :39:44. | |
absolutely not. The that is a calumny! Did you know that economics | :39:45. | :39:50. | |
could be this interesting?! If I had, we would have done more of it! | :39:51. | :39:54. | |
You said there would be no growth in 2013, on the basis of what had been | :39:55. | :39:58. | |
carried out by George Osborne, but there is growth and in that sense | :39:59. | :40:02. | |
you were wrong. I have always tried to say, you have peak levels of | :40:03. | :40:10. | |
output... 2008, output got to a peak. It then fell. The question was | :40:11. | :40:13. | |
when it was going to get back to its previous peak, but everyone said it | :40:14. | :40:18. | |
would be 2012. I have stuck to the position that it will be 2014, it | :40:19. | :40:24. | |
will be 2014, and that is not a wrong call. About cost of living, | :40:25. | :40:29. | |
growth has returned, but the big question is cost of living, because | :40:30. | :40:32. | |
prices are going way ahead of wages. You'd think that will continue, we | :40:33. | :40:39. | |
are not going to say that correct? Absolutely, the squeeze on wages, | :40:40. | :40:44. | |
real wages, has been unprecedented in the last 100 years. Yes, we have | :40:45. | :40:48. | |
got nominal GDP growth happening, but we have got interest rates lower | :40:49. | :40:52. | |
than inflation, so people are losing out on their savings. There will | :40:53. | :40:55. | |
continue to be a cost of living squeeze. In my view, with all | :40:56. | :41:00. | |
respect, the way to increase the cost of living is not to borrow and | :41:01. | :41:03. | |
spend more in a situation where you are already at the limit of what you | :41:04. | :41:17. | |
can borrow and spend, so much so that the gilts market has to | :41:18. | :41:20. | |
continue to prop up... I am going to have to stop you. We have to | :41:21. | :41:22. | |
innovate and invest our way out of this crisis. Hallelujah to that, but | :41:23. | :41:24. | |
NASA necessarily state investment. We need our own show! You do, you | :41:25. | :41:32. | |
can get together afterwards. Be quiet! The long-running scandal | :41:33. | :41:37. | |
known as plebgate, which led to the downfall of the government Chief | :41:38. | :41:41. | |
Whip Andrew Mitchell, came in for a detailed investigation at the Home | :41:42. | :41:44. | |
Affairs Select Committee yesterday. The saga began when Mr Mitchell, as | :41:45. | :41:48. | |
he was cycling out of Downing Street, had an altercation with | :41:49. | :41:50. | |
police officers. He was accused of calling the officers pleb is, a word | :41:51. | :41:57. | |
he has denied using. At a meeting later, three police officers met Mr | :41:58. | :42:02. | |
Mitchell. After the meeting, they told journalists that Andrew | :42:03. | :42:04. | |
Mitchell had refused to elaborate on what he did or did not say in the | :42:05. | :42:09. | |
Downing Street incident. It was that meeting that dominated the hearing | :42:10. | :42:12. | |
when the three self-styled PC plebs appeared before the committee. | :42:13. | :42:19. | |
Detective sergeant said at the end of the meeting, I appreciate your | :42:20. | :42:26. | |
candour, I appreciate that you have gone beyond what you said in the | :42:27. | :42:31. | |
media. In an interview with BBC Midlands afterwards, you said, he | :42:32. | :42:34. | |
has come out with what he has not said, but he is not saying what he | :42:35. | :42:38. | |
did say, and that has caused an integrity issue. I suggest to you | :42:39. | :42:42. | |
that when you spoke to BBC Midlands afterwards, you were not telling the | :42:43. | :42:48. | |
truth. I was telling the truth. I was telling it as I saw it. I had | :42:49. | :42:53. | |
just come out of the meeting, there had been a fair deal said during the | :42:54. | :42:58. | |
meeting. Mr Mitchell's account, with regard to saying things under his | :42:59. | :43:02. | |
breath, that was said at the beginning of the meeting. Later in | :43:03. | :43:07. | |
the meeting, he reiterated that he had not gone beyond what he had said | :43:08. | :43:13. | |
previously... You said that he spoke with candour in the meeting, how can | :43:14. | :43:16. | |
you go from saying he was candid in the meeting do what you said to the | :43:17. | :43:21. | |
BBC outside? I explained that earlier. Prior to the meeting, my | :43:22. | :43:27. | |
understanding was that Mr Mitchell had only ever said, I do not agree | :43:28. | :43:31. | |
with the words attributed to me. The candour I was referring to was that | :43:32. | :43:35. | |
during the meeting, he came out and said, I did not use the specific | :43:36. | :43:44. | |
words pleb and moron. OK, fine, so Mr Mitchell should not be included | :43:45. | :43:47. | |
because he happens to be a member of the public. Have you changed your | :43:48. | :43:53. | |
position at all? Mr Jones, you don't want to apologise for any think you | :43:54. | :43:59. | |
might apart from not having... Can I remind you, gentlemen, as I have | :44:00. | :44:02. | |
reminded all witnesses, that giving false evidence to a select committee | :44:03. | :44:08. | |
is contempt of the house, and can I say on behalf of this committee that | :44:09. | :44:11. | |
we have found your evidence most unsatisfactory? | :44:12. | :44:17. | |
Proceedings at the Home affairs Select Committee yesterday. And this | :44:18. | :44:22. | |
morning the Home Secretary, Theresa May, addressed issues arising out of | :44:23. | :44:25. | |
the Plebgate saga in a speech to the College of Policing. The events of | :44:26. | :44:31. | |
last year proved overwhelmingly the case for a beefed up IPCC and that's | :44:32. | :44:36. | |
what I'm determined to deliver. The expansion of it is on track. And the | :44:37. | :44:40. | |
IPCC will begin to take on additional cases from next year. | :44:41. | :44:46. | |
Where the IPCC has needed new powers, for instance in its | :44:47. | :44:49. | |
investigation of Hillsborough, we have legislated to provide them and | :44:50. | :44:53. | |
if the evidence of the past week shows we need to go further, we will | :44:54. | :44:59. | |
do so. The Home Secretary, Teresa May, talking about beefing up the | :45:00. | :45:03. | |
Independent Police Complaints Commission, and it was one of them | :45:04. | :45:06. | |
who looked at this and criticised the account given by the three | :45:07. | :45:09. | |
police officers we saw before the home affairs select committee. Can | :45:10. | :45:17. | |
the police recover from this? This is... In opinion polls, their trust | :45:18. | :45:23. | |
ranking is quite high and in some respects, deservedly so. I know some | :45:24. | :45:26. | |
young police officers who are really, really passionate public | :45:27. | :45:33. | |
officials who really take their job seriously but there is, without | :45:34. | :45:37. | |
doubt, a real problem amongst police leadership. Half a dozen chief | :45:38. | :45:43. | |
constables have had to step aside. In the last five years. There's been | :45:44. | :45:48. | |
a number of cases of cover-ups of this type. The way in which the | :45:49. | :45:54. | |
leadership of the Metropolitan Police took the opposite side almost | :45:55. | :45:58. | |
from the start, and seemed disinterested. The wave the | :45:59. | :46:01. | |
politician has been effectively framed, it leaves a terrible, | :46:02. | :46:06. | |
terrible taste in our mouths. And actually, I think there has to be | :46:07. | :46:09. | |
some reform at the top of the police. Ian Blair, the former head | :46:10. | :46:14. | |
of the Metropolitan Police, was brought down by whispering campaign | :46:15. | :46:19. | |
within the Metropolitan Police. Do you think the same would happen with | :46:20. | :46:23. | |
Bernard Hogan-Howe? I just think of the culture at the top of this | :46:24. | :46:29. | |
institution, their capacity to inspire, to lead, there's a lot of | :46:30. | :46:36. | |
sex is in the police, and there's some fantastic police officers doing | :46:37. | :46:41. | |
a fantastic job. Lions led by donkeys. -- sexism. Teresa May has | :46:42. | :46:46. | |
got to get to grips with it. That Sotheby's commission is therefore, | :46:47. | :46:53. | |
ideally. Margaret Thatcher. Formidable or foolish? Brilliant or | :46:54. | :46:56. | |
bullying? Virtuous or vicious? However you describe her, she | :46:57. | :46:59. | |
remains one of the most iconic prime ministers of the modern age. In a | :47:00. | :47:03. | |
moment, I'll be joined by former Conservative MP and Minister, | :47:04. | :47:05. | |
Jonathan Aitken, a friend of Lady Thatcher. He's just written a candid | :47:06. | :47:09. | |
book about her. One that shows a very different side to the longest | :47:10. | :47:12. | |
serving post-war Prime Minister. But first, let's look at some | :47:13. | :47:13. | |
photographs taken from the book. With me now, Jonathan Aitken. | :47:14. | :48:14. | |
Welcome. There are numerous biographies of Margaret Thatcher | :48:15. | :48:17. | |
recently. I interviewed Charles Moore about his. Why did you decide | :48:18. | :48:21. | |
to write this book now? I wrote it because I think I have got an angle | :48:22. | :48:25. | |
on Margaret Thatcher which is summed up in the title. Personality. | :48:26. | :48:31. | |
Anybody who thinks that Margaret Thatcher Furlong realises the | :48:32. | :48:37. | |
extraordinary impact of her personality, which changed things -- | :48:38. | :48:42. | |
for long. It changed attitudes, cabinet. I think it's been worth | :48:43. | :48:47. | |
exploring, not the psychobabble way, but by going through the history of | :48:48. | :48:51. | |
her life with a lot of new material. And I thoroughly enjoyed doing it. | :48:52. | :48:56. | |
You got arguably too bad start with there because he went out with her | :48:57. | :48:59. | |
daughter Carol and split up with her. How did that relations between | :49:00. | :49:05. | |
you? It was nice, romantically, but it was one of my less successful | :49:06. | :49:11. | |
career moves. Inevitably one understands why Margaret wouldn't be | :49:12. | :49:14. | |
happy with the young man who hurt her daughter 's happiness. It was | :49:15. | :49:20. | |
never, for me, an issue, except to be sorry about it. But, in reality, | :49:21. | :49:26. | |
one thing from the point of view right now, being a biographer, I did | :49:27. | :49:30. | |
see her at a much closer quarters than I otherwise might have done as | :49:31. | :49:35. | |
a young MP. What insight to that give you into her personality? Well, | :49:36. | :49:42. | |
in home life, the Thatcher family life is pretty dysfunctional. It | :49:43. | :49:47. | |
also revolves around the political ambition. It had its hilarious | :49:48. | :49:51. | |
moments, too. I remember the first time I went to lunch with Margaret | :49:52. | :49:54. | |
Thatcher, on the wall there was a great inscription, a picture would | :49:55. | :50:02. | |
have been given to her by President Assad, in Arabic. She said to me, | :50:03. | :50:08. | |
rather suspect it, I don't suppose your Arabic is good enough to tell | :50:09. | :50:14. | |
me what it is? It was, there is only one God. And Dennis said, thank God | :50:15. | :50:22. | |
we didn't ask the padre to lunch. So was it fun? Spending time with her | :50:23. | :50:27. | |
outside of the political sphere? There was never a dull moment with | :50:28. | :50:31. | |
Margaret Thatcher. She always had such strong views on almost | :50:32. | :50:37. | |
everything. In terms of their personality, people have described | :50:38. | :50:40. | |
her in different ways. While she unkind, difficult, bullying? I think | :50:41. | :50:46. | |
she was all those things. She was never unkind to anybody who might be | :50:47. | :50:53. | |
called in a junior position. Private secretaries, drivers, so on. She was | :50:54. | :50:59. | |
a honey with her staff but the vinegar with her Cabinet. She could | :51:00. | :51:05. | |
be brutal to the high and mighty as I often thought of themselves, | :51:06. | :51:10. | |
ministers who haven't read their briefs properly. Ministers with whom | :51:11. | :51:14. | |
she disagreed and she touring to Geoffrey Howe as is well known. We | :51:15. | :51:22. | |
know how right she was with a howl air of ministers and officials but | :51:23. | :51:25. | |
she was on a mission to get her way. Do you think they will be anything | :51:26. | :51:29. | |
in this book you don't know about Margaret Thatcher? I thought some of | :51:30. | :51:35. | |
the extracts I've read, I thought was interesting the role Denis | :51:36. | :51:40. | |
Thatcher, securing that huge arms deal with Saudi Arabia, and how his | :51:41. | :51:46. | |
friendship with Dick Evans, the chief executive British Aerospace, I | :51:47. | :51:52. | |
thought that was a well told story. One of the things I wanted to ask | :51:53. | :51:58. | |
you. She was lucky with their enemies, Arthur Scargill, he was | :51:59. | :52:05. | |
there for the taking and she took him. That gave her a political base. | :52:06. | :52:14. | |
Up until then, she wasn't seen as a heroine of Thatcherism, but it | :52:15. | :52:18. | |
wasn't made in 1979. In her early moves, on privatisation and | :52:19. | :52:24. | |
deregulating the labour market, they were done very cautiously and her | :52:25. | :52:28. | |
caution comes through in the book, I note. Was she more cautious? I think | :52:29. | :52:34. | |
everything you've said is spot-on, thank you for reading the book so | :52:35. | :52:40. | |
carefully. She was complex in her political personality and of | :52:41. | :52:44. | |
course, it changed over the years. At the beginning, she was very | :52:45. | :52:48. | |
cautious. And she resisted for quite some time, some of the most | :52:49. | :52:52. | |
successful of her policies like privatisation. She held it back for | :52:53. | :52:58. | |
quite awhile. But as she got on in her term, the realistic political | :52:59. | :53:06. | |
caution was replaced by an almost reckless ride of the Valkyries, and | :53:07. | :53:11. | |
she wouldn't listen to anybody, and the poll tax was the classic thing. | :53:12. | :53:16. | |
She could easily have stayed in power for much longer. If she hadn't | :53:17. | :53:24. | |
refused to listen. If there a ten year rule about this? After ten | :53:25. | :53:29. | |
years, you've just consumed all your political capital as a national | :53:30. | :53:33. | |
leader and can't go beyond ten years. Tony Blair and Margaret | :53:34. | :53:38. | |
Thatcher found at. You run out of steam. She created too many enemies, | :53:39. | :53:41. | |
didn't she? Certainly towards the end. America may have got it right. | :53:42. | :53:48. | |
Two terms and the end. She got wilder and wilder towards the end in | :53:49. | :53:53. | |
terms of just stamping on people. There was no need for the quarrels | :53:54. | :53:59. | |
with Geoffrey Howe or Nigel Lawson. What anybody able to say, you're | :54:00. | :54:06. | |
pushing it far too far? I have an interesting story which follows on | :54:07. | :54:12. | |
that Saudi Arabian story. The story goes back to Dick Evans, chief | :54:13. | :54:16. | |
executive, of British Aerospace, who goes out to lunch with Denis, and | :54:17. | :54:23. | |
that happened and Backe comes at 5pm and soon as Margaret comes back into | :54:24. | :54:29. | |
the room, Dennis says, have you done it? And she said, I said you | :54:30. | :54:32. | |
wouldn't do it, you are too afraid to do it. Dick Evans thinks there's | :54:33. | :54:38. | |
a domestic quarrel and wants to leave the room but in actual fact, | :54:39. | :54:42. | |
Dennis has got to promise that morning to sack Nigel Lawson. And | :54:43. | :54:48. | |
she said, you can't make to any enemies all the time. I'm going to | :54:49. | :54:54. | |
have to end it there. Very briefly. You should sack mighty chances if | :54:55. | :54:59. | |
your Prime Minister. OK, OK, thank you. Now, do you remember when | :55:00. | :55:03. | |
offices looked like this? The patterned carpets, the yellow and | :55:04. | :55:05. | |
purple colour scheme, the kipper ties and big hair. Oh, and the | :55:06. | :55:08. | |
technology-free desks. There's not a computer, smart phone or tablet in | :55:09. | :55:12. | |
sight. Today the Cabinet Office will resemble a 1970s office as civil | :55:13. | :55:15. | |
servants are having an email-free day between colleagues. There will | :55:16. | :55:18. | |
be no tapping on the phone during meetings, sifting through emails | :55:19. | :55:20. | |
during lunch or messaging the person sitting next to you. Today will all | :55:21. | :55:24. | |
be about talking to each other face to face or on the phone. Will that | :55:25. | :55:28. | |
create a happier work life, making sure you enjoy the company of your | :55:29. | :55:32. | |
colleagues? Or just take up more time and make you stay late at work? | :55:33. | :55:36. | |
Joining me now is Stephen Taylor, an entrepreneur who has recently | :55:37. | :55:43. | |
criticised our reliance on email. Are we obsessed with it? Yes, we are | :55:44. | :55:47. | |
obsessed with e-mail. We live in a society which seems to be obsessed | :55:48. | :55:50. | |
with nonverbal communication. Colleagues sitting next to each | :55:51. | :55:53. | |
other don't want to speak to each other and are happy to send an | :55:54. | :55:58. | |
e-mail. How often do check your e-mails? Too often. How many e-mails | :55:59. | :56:06. | |
do get a payday? From all sources? It runs into hundreds, yes. It's | :56:07. | :56:11. | |
impossible to monitor. Unless you reply to something almost | :56:12. | :56:18. | |
instantaneously, you forget. But do you think it's damaging to | :56:19. | :56:21. | |
business? Surely this is what is speeded up the process of business? | :56:22. | :56:25. | |
I can do so much more. Like everything, it's a blessing and a | :56:26. | :56:29. | |
curse. It's incredibly powerful and useful but when it overused, what's | :56:30. | :56:34. | |
also interesting there is a shift blame. If somebody puts it into an | :56:35. | :56:38. | |
e-mail, suddenly it's in your inbox, didn't you see it? You must read it. | :56:39. | :56:43. | |
And you say, I didn't sit amongst the thousands of e-mails, so it's a | :56:44. | :56:50. | |
powerful tool, but it's got completely out of hand. Picking up | :56:51. | :56:52. | |
the phone is what's important. I so agree with you. People who work for | :56:53. | :56:57. | |
me and with me, for goodness sake, pick up the phone. How old do you | :56:58. | :57:04. | |
regulate it? If somebody e-mails you, you automatically want to speak | :57:05. | :57:15. | |
to them, and an e-mail you back. I think this is a great idea and it | :57:16. | :57:19. | |
needs to be a more holistic approach to communication overall but thank | :57:20. | :57:22. | |
God somebody is taking common-sense and I think it's got to be praised. | :57:23. | :57:26. | |
Would you say to your company, you're not allowed to e-mail each | :57:27. | :57:30. | |
other if you are sitting within somebody's eyeliner. I would. Are | :57:31. | :57:38. | |
you going to do it? Probably not. People need to talk and | :57:39. | :57:44. | |
communication is important. Verbal communication is faster than sending | :57:45. | :57:50. | |
an e-mail. And waiting for their reply. What about customers? People | :57:51. | :57:54. | |
do want to speak to somebody. They want to have a conversation and | :57:55. | :57:59. | |
engage. Is that being lost? Yes, when you see website had no phone | :58:00. | :58:06. | |
number, it's counterintuitive. We need to get back to speaking to | :58:07. | :58:12. | |
people. I think you're on a hiding to nothing but anyway, thanks for | :58:13. | :58:15. | |
coming in. There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our | :58:16. | :58:19. | |
quiz. The question was what gift did the Cabinet give to Prince George as | :58:20. | :58:23. | |
a Christening present? Was it. A) A Teddy Bear. B) A pine toy box. C) A | :58:24. | :58:27. | |
signed photo of the Cabinet. Or d) A chunk of national debt in the form | :58:28. | :58:34. | |
of a Government Bond. I do know the answer but I'm guessing it was the | :58:35. | :58:42. | |
signed photo. Really? A pine toy box. Thanks to our guests. The One | :58:43. | :58:49. | |
O'Clock News is starting over on BBC One now. Andrew will be on BBC One | :58:50. | :58:56. | |
tonight. I buy. -- by die. | :58:57. | :58:58. |