30/10/2013 Daily Politics


30/10/2013

Similar Content

Browse content similar to 30/10/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Good morning, this is the Daily Politics. Don't all show that

:00:36.:00:48.

once... -- shed at once, but some of Britain's energy companies to

:00:49.:00:51.

greedy? Perish the thought. We will be talking to the boss of a wee

:00:52.:00:55.

energy firm who thinks they are. He plans to investigate the market that

:00:56.:01:04.

will be looked at by the Government tomorrow. And in the interests of

:01:05.:01:07.

saving energy, we will be harnessing the hot air of this week PMQs.

:01:08.:01:13.

It's round two of when Mo met Tommy. We'll be talking to the former

:01:14.:01:15.

leader of the EDL. And is the NHS engine over-heating?

:01:16.:01:20.

We'll be talking to one health specialist who has this rather scary

:01:21.:01:24.

warning? All that and more in the next

:01:25.:01:26.

ever-increasing wave of demand, it will soon break down.

:01:27.:01:41.

We are coping here this morning, but more of that in the next 90 minutes.

:01:42.:01:49.

And with as for the duration, Westminster's finest double act.

:01:50.:01:54.

Their agents told me to say that. Al and Vern. It could be one word, Alan

:01:55.:02:04.

Byrne. In pursuit of public service broadcasting, iota of vessel, they

:02:05.:02:09.

were all we could afford. The International Development Minister

:02:10.:02:13.

Alan Duncan and the shiny new Shadow Defence Secretary, big Vernon Coker.

:02:14.:02:17.

Welcome to you both. Since I have you both here, international aid,

:02:18.:02:22.

defence, should some of the aid budget be taken to help our

:02:23.:02:27.

stretched forces? People think that if you took the aid budget and

:02:28.:02:31.

transferred it to defence, it would make all the difference but we

:02:32.:02:34.

worked so well together already. The defence budget is three and a half

:02:35.:02:39.

times the size of the total development budget, but we work very

:02:40.:02:43.

closely together in lots of conflict ridden places in the world and at

:02:44.:02:49.

the moment, we have pressing requirement in Syria and outside

:02:50.:02:52.

Syria in what is the biggest humanitarian intervention. The

:02:53.:02:56.

defence budget is being slashed, yours is being increased. If you

:02:57.:03:02.

want me to give money to him, if he were in Government would you want to

:03:03.:03:06.

take money away from people who are eating cats and dogs in Damascus?

:03:07.:03:11.

You know that is not the choice, because that kind of aid, that goes

:03:12.:03:14.

directly to help people in real need, is a very small percentage of

:03:15.:03:20.

your 10 billion. You gave... Two thirds of your budget goes through

:03:21.:03:26.

the World Bank, the EU, the UN, three bywords for waste and

:03:27.:03:31.

profligacy. I don't think so, but you are right, there is a

:03:32.:03:35.

significant element, 40%, that goes to multilateral organisations, much

:03:36.:03:39.

of it which would happen if there was not a department for

:03:40.:03:43.

International development, but don't me the United Nations is not doing

:03:44.:03:46.

important stuff to feed people, to help them, keep the peace -- then

:03:47.:03:55.

tell. You know how much they waste. It is very glib to say get rid of

:03:56.:03:59.

them all, we know what they do and we keep a beady eye on them to make

:04:00.:04:02.

sure we get value for the money we give them. You have been attacking

:04:03.:04:05.

the Government for numbers only terror shall -- numbers in the

:04:06.:04:10.

territorial Army, trying to beef it up, but wouldn't you need to come if

:04:11.:04:14.

you are trying to do it, for extra money for defence? What we are

:04:15.:04:19.

saying is the Government has one problem of reform, it is in trouble

:04:20.:04:25.

in the number of reservists that are being used to take the place of the

:04:26.:04:30.

number of full-time soldiers. So it is a reform problem. We should they

:04:31.:04:34.

should pause, with respect to that, to see if it will save them any

:04:35.:04:36.

money or whether actually, there is a better way of doing it. I

:04:37.:04:41.

understand what you mean but if you were to stop this move of a

:04:42.:04:44.

rebalancing towards a bigger reservist army, that would cost you

:04:45.:04:49.

more money in the short run as professional soldiers are more

:04:50.:04:51.

expensive. Where would you get that from? That is why you posted, it is

:04:52.:04:56.

not about spending more money, it is about looking to see what is

:04:57.:05:00.

happening with respect to the reform programme that the Government is

:05:01.:05:03.

pursuing, and there are some doubts as to whether it will actually save

:05:04.:05:07.

any money at all. He was the interesting thing that people don't

:05:08.:05:13.

understand. That -- hearers. We give ?450 million a year to Pakistan

:05:14.:05:20.

while we slash around defence budgets to give us the smallest army

:05:21.:05:23.

since the Napoleonic war. And yet Pakistan spends how much of its

:05:24.:05:31.

national budget on defence? I agree that... Let me tell you. They spend

:05:32.:05:38.

54% of all federal spending in Pakistan on defence. So we give them

:05:39.:05:43.

a small amount of money, so that they can do something with the

:05:44.:05:47.

appalling poverty there, although it is only on the edges, while they

:05:48.:05:51.

spent over half of their money on something we are slashing, called

:05:52.:05:57.

defence. Explain the logic? If we don't act as we are acting in

:05:58.:06:01.

Pakistan, this is the country where some of the greatest dangers in the

:06:02.:06:04.

world could emanate, including having the nuclear balance next door

:06:05.:06:08.

with India. So what we do in Pakistan can make an enormous amount

:06:09.:06:12.

of difference. If you had a Pakistan incomplete decay, the costs of

:06:13.:06:18.

curing that problem would far exceed the money spent... You cannot claim

:06:19.:06:22.

that 450 million is making a difference to whether Pakistan goes

:06:23.:06:24.

over the edge or not, let's be serious. It makes a contribution to

:06:25.:06:30.

that but we are also focusing on course on pressing polity, there is

:06:31.:06:33.

pretty ghastly poverty in Pakistan and we don't turn our backs on

:06:34.:06:39.

people who don't know where their next meal is coming from. Of course,

:06:40.:06:42.

they would if they didn't spend half of their budget on defence in the

:06:43.:06:46.

Pakistan Government. Today, the Privy Council, the group

:06:47.:06:50.

of senior ministers who advise the Queen, is due to head to Buckingham

:06:51.:06:57.

Palace to finally approve the Royal Charter and press regulation. Once

:06:58.:07:04.

it is approved, following the ideals of the Levinson choir is a done

:07:05.:07:08.

deal, but the press has other ideas, trying to put the charter on hold.

:07:09.:07:14.

Ross Hawkins watches all things Levinson, so we don't have to, a

:07:15.:07:19.

very admirable role. -- Levenson. What is happening?

:07:20.:07:26.

The weight of deja vu is crashing. We have been on the traffic island

:07:27.:07:30.

in front of this court before four months and months, hearing from Lord

:07:31.:07:37.

Justice Leveson, thinking it would be sorted out, but it wasn't

:07:38.:07:41.

anywhere near. Today, finally settling on the version of a Royal

:07:42.:07:45.

Charter to help regulate the press that the political parties agree on,

:07:46.:07:48.

surely it will be over them? Apparently not. What the press are

:07:49.:07:53.

trying to do is get an injunction to say that that meeting cannot go

:07:54.:07:55.

ahead, Her Majesty cannot give the seal on this. They say that because

:07:56.:08:01.

the way that version of the press charter was dealt with was unfair,

:08:02.:08:09.

we heard in there that there was practically a Kafkaesque situation.

:08:10.:08:12.

Two judges looking wisely over their glasses at a QC. I wouldn't dare

:08:13.:08:16.

predict what judgement they will come to, but it is possible but at

:08:17.:08:20.

the end of this hearing, the Queen and ministers get told, I am awfully

:08:21.:08:23.

sorry, you cannot make a decision today because the lawyers will not

:08:24.:08:26.

let you. Ross Hawkins, thank you. Joining us

:08:27.:08:30.

is the Sun columnist Trevor Kavanagh. You are trying to hold

:08:31.:08:34.

this progress for a Royal Charter, but what you really want is delayed,

:08:35.:08:37.

because more delay will mean that this could be kicked into the long

:08:38.:08:41.

grass and you can go ahead and set up your own regulator. No, we want a

:08:42.:08:48.

regulator. We want clarity. What we have is a fudge and this is a

:08:49.:08:54.

political attempt to control the press by state statute, and it has

:08:55.:08:58.

been stitched up in secret in late-night meetings between parties

:08:59.:09:01.

that do not involve the newspaper industry, and the Privy Council,

:09:02.:09:05.

which meets in secret. We don't even know who is in the Privy Council.

:09:06.:09:09.

You don't know the players at this point, you will know afterwards, but

:09:10.:09:14.

what is missing in terms of clarity? Transparency, for one thing. But you

:09:15.:09:19.

know what is being proposed. We do. The simple fact is we don't know who

:09:20.:09:24.

is making the decision, how they are doing so, where they are even

:09:25.:09:28.

meeting, in fact. When the initial plan was put together, it was at

:09:29.:09:36.

3am, involving political party leaders in the office of Ed

:09:37.:09:41.

Miliband, attended by the campaigning group Hacked Off, and no

:09:42.:09:45.

representation from the newspaper groups. And it was proposed, not

:09:46.:09:51.

voluntarily agreed, but we have put one forward that covers everything

:09:52.:09:57.

that Leveson suggested except it does not require state legislation.

:09:58.:10:02.

What will you do if the High Court bid today fails? I suspect we will

:10:03.:10:06.

continue to operate under the terms of the charter we set up. Will that

:10:07.:10:11.

be up and running by January? I should think so. So nothing is going

:10:12.:10:16.

to change your mind in terms of signing up to what has been proposed

:10:17.:10:20.

by the Government? Nobody is going to sign up, I think, to state

:10:21.:10:25.

control. Do you know that for a fact? It is going to be a case of

:10:26.:10:29.

safety in numbers, so if everybody stays on board, along the lines you

:10:30.:10:32.

have said that, then you are going to have a much bigger stick to try

:10:33.:10:36.

and beat the Government with. Are you worried that some of them may

:10:37.:10:39.

pull away if the Royal Charter goes ahead today? It is always possible,

:10:40.:10:44.

but if anything, they are getting more together than falling apart, so

:10:45.:10:48.

I think the Government measures are not wholly supported, even within

:10:49.:10:52.

the Government. So I think that there is plenty of room, even

:10:53.:10:55.

there, for negotiation and manoeuvre. I wouldn't be surprised

:10:56.:11:00.

if something crops up. Is there room for negotiation? What happens, Alan

:11:01.:11:03.

Duncan, if the charter is sealed today and the press, the main

:11:04.:11:09.

groups, say no. It is absurd to call the state control. All it is doing

:11:10.:11:12.

is setting up a framework within which they can be a process of

:11:13.:11:17.

independent regulation, so that neither Trevor know I know Vernon

:11:18.:11:23.

can make a judgement over the press -- nor I, nor Vernon. What we have

:11:24.:11:30.

lacked over many years is a genuine independent, really sort of process

:11:31.:11:36.

of address. Some members of the press have behaved abominably and

:11:37.:11:41.

many who think they are the victims of bad press contact me Natalie feel

:11:42.:11:48.

they have no means of redress -- bad press conduct feel they have no

:11:49.:11:52.

means of redress. This is doing something about it. But my question

:11:53.:11:58.

is, what you do if the say no? They will run the risk of damages and

:11:59.:12:05.

don't sign up? I don't know the immediate answer. So many people are

:12:06.:12:08.

so bamboozled about what has really happened since Levenson, they are in

:12:09.:12:13.

a muddle. If you are to as people in the street what this charter is

:12:14.:12:17.

about, they will say they don't understand. But my understanding is,

:12:18.:12:22.

as I have just explain that if the press do not somehow sign up to it,

:12:23.:12:26.

it is a pity, because they came up with a proposal that was not

:12:27.:12:32.

compliant with what Lord Justice Leveson suggested. Yes it was, it

:12:33.:12:36.

was completely compliant. It was voluntary, it covered everything he

:12:37.:12:41.

recommended. It wanted former editors to sit on the regulation.

:12:42.:12:48.

What about the composition of those sitting in regulation? Former

:12:49.:12:55.

editors... You have got to have some input from people who know the

:12:56.:12:59.

industry is about. As Ed Miliband Harding in his view since the row

:13:00.:13:03.

about his father with the Daily Mail -- as Ed Miliband hardened in his

:13:04.:13:07.

view? I think he has been motivated all the way through by the fact that

:13:08.:13:13.

we are in a situation that the press backwardly public had lost faith in

:13:14.:13:18.

the complaints procedure. What we are discussing some of the most

:13:19.:13:22.

awful abuses of press abuse that we have seen, cases like Millie Dowler.

:13:23.:13:26.

It is not about regulating the press, as such, it is about how

:13:27.:13:30.

complaints are dealt with, how ree dress is achieved by people in a way

:13:31.:13:34.

which is independent of Parliament, and independent of the press, and I

:13:35.:13:37.

think people would see that as sensible. How determined are the

:13:38.:13:43.

Tories to see this through? I don't think it is the Tories, as such.

:13:44.:13:48.

Politicians are trying to find an answer to the long-standing question

:13:49.:13:53.

about how to address the unsatisfactory state of press

:13:54.:13:56.

regulations, as Vernon has just said. In my view, there is nothing

:13:57.:14:01.

in here that would go anywhere near stopping the press saying something

:14:02.:14:07.

they thought was true. As the Americans say, you can put lipstick

:14:08.:14:12.

on a pig and it is still a pig. On that parroted line, we will end it

:14:13.:14:15.

there, thank you. It was billed as the dirty

:14:16.:14:19.

half-dozen meets high noon. But what happened when the big six energy

:14:20.:14:23.

bosses, actually not all of them turned up, their surrogates,

:14:24.:14:27.

appeared before the energy select committee yesterday afternoon?

:14:28.:14:31.

Surprise surprise, they defended prices in the rise of wholesale

:14:32.:14:36.

energy. The show was not stolen by any of the MPs doing the cruising

:14:37.:14:40.

but by one Lone Ranger, the managing director of OVO Energy. Here is a

:14:41.:14:52.

flavour of the session. The easiest way I can explain to you

:14:53.:14:56.

what has happened in the wholesale market in terms of pricing is the

:14:57.:14:59.

most expensive price we have paid for wholesale gas in the last four

:15:00.:15:09.

years was in May 2011, 74p, and since then, it has been below 73p

:15:10.:15:14.

for this winter, last winter and next winter. We are buying for next

:15:15.:15:19.

winter at the current price of 69p. So I cannot explain any of these

:15:20.:15:23.

price rises other than they are not the prices that we see in the

:15:24.:15:28.

wholesale market. We effectively ran our retail business as a separate

:15:29.:15:33.

business unit, and one of the things the Labour Party has been talking

:15:34.:15:37.

about is ring fencing generation and retail. That is something that we

:15:38.:15:42.

effectively do and we would support. Is it not just about the

:15:43.:15:47.

biggest problem, that is that consumers can no longer afford to

:15:48.:15:57.

pay their energy bills? In politicising things, what are you

:15:58.:16:04.

going to do for consumers? When it comes to... There are two key things

:16:05.:16:09.

to talk about, all the profits they are? But how can the profits be fair

:16:10.:16:16.

when people cannot afford to pay for energy? Because the second part of

:16:17.:16:20.

this is what we do with the profits. I do not make a 5% profit in my

:16:21.:16:27.

business, if that does not happen, I cannot employ 20,000 people. They

:16:28.:16:30.

are equally members of our society. And cannot afford to operate the

:16:31.:16:36.

company. We make a fraction of what mobile phone company makes.

:16:37.:16:41.

Dashboard off on companies make. Why have written to the Prime Minister

:16:42.:16:45.

and the Secretary of State Colin for a Competition Commission. I

:16:46.:16:51.

fundamentally believe that this market is competitive. But iPods

:16:52.:16:59.

that we are not trusted and therefore I believe that we need to

:17:00.:17:02.

have a very thorough Competition Commission investigation. We're

:17:03.:17:11.

trying to track down where the money is going and last time out was here

:17:12.:17:15.

and the time before then, I said you will never find it. These guys are

:17:16.:17:19.

the best at filibustering in the business. And the Chief Executive of

:17:20.:17:25.

overall energy, you saw in front of the committee yesterday, joins us

:17:26.:17:31.

from Bristol. -- overall energy. I understand that you do not pay the

:17:32.:17:35.

same environmental and social charges, so that must be one reason

:17:36.:17:44.

why you do not charge as much. You are right. Ofgem tried to encourage

:17:45.:17:50.

more competition by allowing exemptions to small suppliers. Over

:17:51.:17:53.

the last couple of years, we have not contributed to the environmental

:17:54.:17:58.

levies. They make up about 4% of the bills and some of the price

:17:59.:18:01.

differences we have seen are more like 14 or 15%. What is the average

:18:02.:18:06.

difference between somebody with British Gas and somebody with you?

:18:07.:18:14.

The average of the four of the big six, the average is about ?165. That

:18:15.:18:22.

is about 14 or 15% higher. But you increased prices in April? We our

:18:23.:18:27.

prices up, having not raise our prices for the whole of last winter.

:18:28.:18:32.

After the warm weather last year, we decided not to have a pricing

:18:33.:18:35.

crease. As it was a cold March and April, we saw a rebound in gas and

:18:36.:18:44.

electricity prices. And that led to us putting up our presence. Like any

:18:45.:18:47.

other energy company, when our wholesale prices go up, our prices

:18:48.:18:53.

will follow. We have always said we would try to keep this to a minimum.

:18:54.:18:57.

But it is not like we will never put up prices. This is not, there is no

:18:58.:19:04.

magic solution. But you said that wholesale prices are lower than they

:19:05.:19:10.

were two years ago and have looked at the costs and that is right. Why

:19:11.:19:14.

have you not reduced your bills? As everybody has said, there are lots

:19:15.:19:18.

of components that make up consumer energy bills. There are

:19:19.:19:23.

environmental and social levies and wholesale gas costs. Last October,

:19:24.:19:29.

we saw network costs going up considerably. This was offset by a

:19:30.:19:35.

temporary fall in wholesale prices so we did not change our price

:19:36.:19:39.

because, on balance, our input costs had not changed. When the wholesale

:19:40.:19:46.

price moved back up again, in April, we had to pass that on. But

:19:47.:19:53.

according to Ofgem, wholesale gas and electricity prices are going to

:19:54.:19:57.

rise this winter, too, and that is why the energy prices have gone up.

:19:58.:20:02.

The price we are paying for wholesale gas has not moved

:20:03.:20:07.

significantly in the last two years. Electricity is creeping up but it is

:20:08.:20:14.

a couple of percentage points. All we're saying is that we do not see

:20:15.:20:19.

those price rises in our wholesale costs. If the big six are paying

:20:20.:20:23.

more for gas and electricity, that is a matter for them. What is your

:20:24.:20:28.

profit margins? We hope to make 5% profit per customer. One of the

:20:29.:20:32.

things that makes us different is that we try to make 5% of profit for

:20:33.:20:38.

each customer rather than making a big profit margin on some customers

:20:39.:20:43.

and a loss on others. So your profit margins is no different from the big

:20:44.:20:46.

six? I do not think profits are evil. They are not the problem. I

:20:47.:20:53.

think most consumers would be very happy to have a profitable energy

:20:54.:20:56.

company supplying them as long as they got good service and they felt

:20:57.:20:58.

they were getting good value for money. In the absence of good value

:20:59.:21:04.

for money and good customer service, people look to energy company

:21:05.:21:07.

profits and say that they do not deserve them. I'm not sure whether

:21:08.:21:11.

you have said it but the big six have been accused of being a cartel

:21:12.:21:16.

is a word with a particular meaning, cartels are actually

:21:17.:21:19.

illegal under British and German law. A cartel implies people

:21:20.:21:28.

colluding against the interests of the public. And IFS eyes colluding.

:21:29.:21:35.

Is it your view that they are a cartel? -- and I emphasise. I do not

:21:36.:21:41.

believe that they are a cartel. A cartel implies collusion, and I do

:21:42.:21:47.

not think there are secret meetings somewhere where they decide how much

:21:48.:21:54.

to charge British customers, but they do -- I do think they are as

:21:55.:21:57.

bad as each other. They do not offer a great choice. I would like to see

:21:58.:22:03.

the regulator take a stronger line on promoting competition and, in

:22:04.:22:05.

particular, new entrants into the market like us, although we would be

:22:06.:22:10.

happy to see more entrants offering different business models and

:22:11.:22:16.

therefore more choice. Think we have to be careful. The big six have an

:22:17.:22:19.

important role to play in the energy industry. There is a lot of

:22:20.:22:25.

investment required. We would like to win some of their market share

:22:26.:22:28.

but we're not saying that what they are doing is illegal or in anyway

:22:29.:22:34.

collusive. We just think they are all pretty much the same. You say

:22:35.:22:39.

you're going to have to start paying the green levies next year.

:22:40.:22:44.

Wholesale gas prices, you say, are rising again. And you have to pay

:22:45.:22:48.

the regulated costs of distribution to the National Grid, which because

:22:49.:22:54.

we are building windmills in parts of the world weather is not

:22:55.:22:58.

distribution, that is becoming an expensive part of doing business. I

:22:59.:23:03.

would think that your LO just prices will have to go up to. -- your

:23:04.:23:10.

electricity prices. I will not rule anything out but I can say that we

:23:11.:23:14.

have no plan for a price rise. But they all say that! The boss of aeon

:23:15.:23:18.

said that on the BBC this morning! Michael Heseltine said that when he

:23:19.:23:23.

said he was not running against Margaret Thatcher. -- EON. You're

:23:24.:23:29.

sounding like a politician now! Bad news indeed! If our costs go up and

:23:30.:23:36.

we cannot absorb them, prices will have to go up. We have never claimed

:23:37.:23:42.

to have the magic all it. We do not claim to have a secret answer. -- a

:23:43.:23:47.

magic bullet. We are trying to be as efficient as possible. We do not

:23:48.:23:50.

have any marketing gimmicks to convince customers they are getting

:23:51.:23:54.

a good deal. That forces us to keep our costs down. I hope that we will

:23:55.:23:58.

just be better than the competition. I do not know that we can keep a lid

:23:59.:24:02.

on prices for ever if everyone else's costs are going up. Alan

:24:03.:24:09.

Duncan, are we clearer yet? The Prime Minister, spoke of rolling

:24:10.:24:17.

back the green levies. Are we any clearer on what that means? I think

:24:18.:24:23.

we want to reduce the burden of the green levies. Which ones? That was a

:24:24.:24:26.

remarkable interview because that had the answer. Anger or hatred will

:24:27.:24:33.

not bring down prices. 30 years ago, in the oil business, the traders I

:24:34.:24:37.

worked for drove the big companies out of their dominance. That kind of

:24:38.:24:42.

market power is what we need in the utilities industry. So what is your

:24:43.:24:46.

answer? The answer is that we need more companies like that. That is

:24:47.:24:53.

the answer to your question. My question was, indulge me, and answer

:24:54.:24:58.

the question. What green levies are we talking about? This has not been

:24:59.:25:06.

defined exactly. So you do not know. No. Well, don't waffle, just say you

:25:07.:25:13.

do not know. Peter Helm, the premier egg Djurdjic -- energy expert says

:25:14.:25:24.

that the cost of investing in energy capital is higher so that the costs

:25:25.:25:29.

will be higher, thanks to Labour. I disagree. We said that the should be

:25:30.:25:33.

a price freeze. If we were to win the next election. During that time,

:25:34.:25:38.

we would refund the market and do all the things that we said. But if

:25:39.:25:45.

he removes the levies, he will be able to cut the price, not just

:25:46.:25:50.

freeze at? But nobody has a clue. If global prices have gone up. How can

:25:51.:26:01.

you reform the market? He has no idea what he's talking about. We

:26:02.:26:04.

have to move. As we have been hearing, gas bills are rising, and

:26:05.:26:10.

saw temperatures. Actually, they are falling. Often leaves this morning.

:26:11.:26:16.

The first taste of what I've fought one got back this morning. The

:26:17.:26:19.

clocks have gone back and the nights are drawing in. It is a cliche a

:26:20.:26:26.

second. Our Energy Secretary is investing in knitwear. So we have

:26:27.:26:31.

developed something better. Look at this, the Daily Politics mug cosy.

:26:32.:26:37.

Trendier than Flashdance legwarmers and cuddlier than eight crotch did

:26:38.:26:44.

Ed Davey, even a crotchety Ed Davey. To keep your Daily Politics mug

:26:45.:26:51.

slug. We're not sure if it is machine washable and it may shrink

:26:52.:26:56.

if washed. It was originally part of Hazel Blears' winter wardrobe. Just

:26:57.:27:00.

joking. Very cheeky. This can be yours along

:27:01.:27:04.

with our own Daily Politics mug. Just listen to our JoCo. You would

:27:05.:27:09.

be a net to miss it. Oh, dear! -- a knit.

:27:10.:27:18.

We will remind you how to enter in a minute. Mine is smaller than yours.

:27:19.:27:20.

Can you remember when this happened? If something finished? No, no, no.

:27:21.:27:35.

-- is hunting finished. And all that standards have slipped

:27:36.:28:34.

in Washington over the last few years but for a lawyer, you are

:28:35.:28:38.

remarkably cavalier with any idea of justice.

:28:39.:28:49.

To be in with a chance of winning a Daily Politics mug, and the tea cosy

:28:50.:28:59.

or whatever you want to call it, set your -- send your answer to our

:29:00.:29:03.

special e-mail address. And you can see the full terms and conditions

:29:04.:29:10.

for Guess The Year on our website: Don't listen to and restoring. We

:29:11.:29:18.

will reveal the answer at the end of the show. -- don't listen to Andrew

:29:19.:29:25.

snoring. And Alan, you are going to knit it for the end of the petition.

:29:26.:29:29.

By wanting a jumper. Anyway, is this a politics programme

:29:30.:29:34.

or a daytime knitting show? Coming up, it is almost midday. Big Ben is

:29:35.:29:42.

behind me. A sunny, autumnal day. With just a tinge of air

:29:43.:29:45.

conditioning. By ministers questions is on its way and James Landale is

:29:46.:29:49.

here. A cornucopia of things that could happen today. What will they

:29:50.:29:54.

do? There is a lot. But there is nothing dominant or obvious. Ed

:29:55.:29:59.

Miliband has done very well on the cost of living so think the

:30:00.:30:01.

temptation will be to on their patch. But because of yesterday's

:30:02.:30:06.

committee hearings, there is not much for him to bite on. He might

:30:07.:30:10.

stay on the same subject or they might go to water or something else

:30:11.:30:16.

like that. Mr Cameron could have fun on labour's Makkah nations over

:30:17.:30:25.

HS2? Definitely that is rich pickings for him. -- imaginations.

:30:26.:30:33.

Hopefully he will have a sub editor who will tell you not to use that

:30:34.:30:38.

word. It is an area where Labour are vulnerable. There is an opportunity

:30:39.:30:43.

for that and eye would be amazed if the whips have not got an MP to ask

:30:44.:30:46.

that question. Straight to the Commons. This morning, I have had

:30:47.:30:54.

meetings with my colleagues and eye There are over 1 million new jobs.

:30:55.:31:11.

We were told that the Government has a programme which would clearly lead

:31:12.:31:14.

to the disappearance of a million jobs. Isn't it time for the person

:31:15.:31:21.

who said that to admit they were wrong and apologise.

:31:22.:31:29.

My honourable friend is absolutely right. The British economy is on the

:31:30.:31:34.

mend. We see unemployment coming down, the numbers in work are going

:31:35.:31:39.

up. Our growth rate is now forecast to be almost three times as fast as

:31:40.:31:43.

German growth. And frankly, the party opposite and the Leader of the

:31:44.:31:48.

Opposition told us we would lose a million jobs. He was absolutely

:31:49.:31:51.

wrong and it is time he got to his feet and told us he was wrong.

:31:52.:32:08.

Mister Speaker, having listened to the select committee hearing

:32:09.:32:11.

yesterday, can the Prime Minister tell us, what is the difference...

:32:12.:32:23.

THE SPEAKER: Order. Can I tell the Prime Minister's PBS, his role is to

:32:24.:32:28.

not his head in the appropriate places and fetch and carry notes. No

:32:29.:32:33.

noise required. Mister Miliband. Having listened to the hearing

:32:34.:32:37.

yesterday, can the Prime Minister tell us what the differences between

:32:38.:32:40.

his policy on energy and that of the energy companies? Not a word of

:32:41.:32:46.

apology about predicting 1 million jobs lost. They got it wrong and

:32:47.:32:53.

they can't bear to admit it. THE SPEAKER: Order. The question

:32:54.:32:57.

must be heard and the answers must be heard, however long it takes.

:32:58.:33:02.

Some people need to get used to the fact that that is what the public

:33:03.:33:07.

would like to see from the House of Commons. Prime Minister. The energy

:33:08.:33:11.

market needs more competition and lower levies and charges to drive

:33:12.:33:15.

profits and prices down. At what we have learned, Mister Speaker in the

:33:16.:33:19.

last week, is that this competition should include switching. At the

:33:20.:33:24.

dispatch box, he said, I will tell the Prime Minister what is a con,

:33:25.:33:28.

telling people that the answer is to switch suppliers. But what did we

:33:29.:33:34.

find out over the last few days? He switched his supplier. Yes! He went

:33:35.:33:41.

for one of these insurgent companies to cut his bills. Isn't it typical?

:33:42.:33:46.

He comes here every week and attacks Tory policy. He goes home and he

:33:47.:33:50.

adopts Tory policy to help his own family. Mister Speaker...

:33:51.:34:01.

The only thing people need to do, if they want somebody to stand up

:34:02.:34:04.

against the energy companies, they need to switch the Prime Minister,

:34:05.:34:10.

and that is what they know. Now, as the unofficial spokesman for the

:34:11.:34:18.

energy companies, maybe he can answer the question that they could

:34:19.:34:24.

not answer yesterday. Can he explain why, when wholesale prices have

:34:25.:34:28.

hardly moved since a year ago, retail prices are rising by around

:34:29.:34:35.

10%? Because we need both competition and rolling back the

:34:36.:34:40.

cost of charges. Switching is part of competition. And the company that

:34:41.:34:46.

he switched to has this to say about his energy freeze: They said, "a

:34:47.:34:56.

policy like this is potentially problematic for an independent

:34:57.:35:02.

provider. Bluntly, it could put me under." So that is his policy, not

:35:03.:35:05.

listening to the people providing his energy, but having less choice,

:35:06.:35:11.

less competition and higher prices. It is the same old Labour. He had no

:35:12.:35:18.

answer to the question. And I will its play on something quite simple

:35:19.:35:23.

to him. Most energy companies do not want a price freeze. And most

:35:24.:35:28.

consumers do. That is why the energy companies are against the price

:35:29.:35:31.

freeze. He is so on the side of the energy companies that we should call

:35:32.:35:35.

them the big seven, the Prime Minister and the big six energy

:35:36.:35:41.

companies. Now, in opposition, he said this: "There is a problem in

:35:42.:35:49.

the relationship between wholesale and retail prices. The first thing

:35:50.:35:53.

you have got to do is give the regulator the teeth to order that

:35:54.:36:00.

those reductions are made. That is what we would do." Mister Speaker,

:36:01.:36:05.

why, when it comes to the energy companies, has he gone from Rambo to

:36:06.:36:12.

Bambi in four short years? Who was it who gave us the big six?

:36:13.:36:18.

Yes! When Labour first looked at this, there were almost 20

:36:19.:36:23.

companies, but because of his stewardship, we ended up with six

:36:24.:36:27.

players. Now, they talk about a price freeze, but down the corridor,

:36:28.:36:30.

they have been voting for a price rise. That is right, they voted for

:36:31.:36:36.

a decarbonisation target that everyone accepts would rise prices.

:36:37.:36:42.

If he wants a price freeze, why has he just voted for a price rise? It

:36:43.:36:50.

is just so hard to keep up with this Prime Minister on green levies,

:36:51.:36:54.

isn't it? This is what he was saying in January. Believe it or not, he

:36:55.:36:59.

was boasting about the size of his green levies. He said this, I kid

:37:00.:37:07.

you not, he said, and I quote, "eco-was many times the size of the

:37:08.:37:11.

scheme it replaced, so when it comes to green, the bigger the better" and

:37:12.:37:22.

now he says the opposite. On competition, here is the problem.

:37:23.:37:29.

Here is the problem... He wants a review on energy policy, but that is

:37:30.:37:34.

exactly what the energy companies want, a long enquiry, kicking the

:37:35.:37:40.

problem into the long grass. How well a review that reports next

:37:41.:37:43.

summer help people to pay their bills this winter? --how will. We

:37:44.:37:50.

want to competition enquiry that starts right away, that is our

:37:51.:37:55.

policy. The point about voting for a price rise, he has the answer,

:37:56.:37:59.

because this is what the former Labour energy spokesman, Lord

:38:00.:38:02.

Donoghue, said in the House of Lords, and he should listen... "I

:38:03.:38:08.

have never spoken against a Labour amendment in 28 years in this House,

:38:09.:38:13.

but I am troubled by the consequences for ordinary people.

:38:14.:38:16.

The amendment will raise the cost of living and is in conflict with a

:38:17.:38:24.

future price freeze. " That is from Labour's and policy spokesman of the

:38:25.:38:28.

past in the House of Lords. The fact is the whole country can see he is a

:38:29.:38:32.

one trick pony and he has run out of road. Let me tell him, if he wants

:38:33.:38:42.

to talk about what people are saying...

:38:43.:38:47.

THE SPEAKER: Order. Can we try to recover some semblance of calm? It

:38:48.:38:53.

would be good for the health, beneficial to people's wellbeing.

:38:54.:38:58.

They must try and grow up, even those below the age of 60. His own

:38:59.:39:05.

former environment Secretary, the man in charge of the climate change

:39:06.:39:08.

committee, says his figures are false. That is what he says. Instead

:39:09.:39:14.

of having a review, he has got an opportunity to do something for the

:39:15.:39:18.

public next week. He has got an energy bill going through

:39:19.:39:21.

Parliament. Instead of sitting on his hands, he could amend that Bill

:39:22.:39:25.

to institute a price freeze now. We will support a price freeze, why

:39:26.:39:32.

does he not act? Because it is not a price freeze, it is a price con. And

:39:33.:39:39.

the fact is, he is hiding behind this economically illiterate policy

:39:40.:39:42.

because he cannot talk about the economy, because it is growing. He

:39:43.:39:47.

cannot talk about unemployment, because it is falling. He cannot

:39:48.:39:51.

talk about the deficit, because it has come down. He has nothing else

:39:52.:39:55.

to say, he is a weak leader with no ideas.

:39:56.:40:00.

I will tell you who is weak, it is this Prime Minister, too weak to

:40:01.:40:06.

stand up to the energy companies. Nothing less than a price freeze

:40:07.:40:10.

will do. Because this is the only way that we can deal with the energy

:40:11.:40:16.

companies overcharging. It is time he started acting like a Prime

:40:17.:40:19.

Minister, standing up for consumers and stopped acting like a PR man for

:40:20.:40:25.

the energy companies. I will tell you what is weak and were too weak

:40:26.:40:30.

to stand up and admit their economic failures. Too weak to stand up to

:40:31.:40:35.

Len McCluskey, who tried to wreck the Scotland's petrochemical

:40:36.:40:39.

industry, and too weak to stand up to the Shadow Chancellor... Order!

:40:40.:40:45.

Mister Quinn, recover your composure, man. You are wholly out

:40:46.:40:51.

of control. Prime Minister. Letters just examined what has happened with

:40:52.:40:56.

high speed to this week. The Shadow Chancellor to ring the radio studios

:40:57.:41:00.

telling everyone it won't go ahead -- high-speed two. What has he done,

:41:01.:41:12.

cowered in his office, too weak to make a decision. Britain deserves

:41:13.:41:17.

better than that flopped. -- ban that lot.

:41:18.:41:27.

Last year, businesses, yes businesses, created three times as

:41:28.:41:34.

many jobs in the private sector as well ask in the public sector. So is

:41:35.:41:38.

it not high time, Prime Minister, that those who made the mistake

:41:39.:41:43.

predictions that we would not be able to create as many Private jobs

:41:44.:41:48.

that were lost in the public sector should go on to admit that they got

:41:49.:41:54.

it wrong? My honourable friend is absolutely right. They should admit

:41:55.:41:58.

that they got it wrong. Let us remember what the Leader of the

:41:59.:42:02.

Opposition said as late as March 2012. He said, "you are not going to

:42:03.:42:06.

be able to replace the jobs in the public sector quickly enough in the

:42:07.:42:12.

private sector. We now have 1 million more people employed in our

:42:13.:42:17.

country. 1.4 million private sector jobs, but they are too weak to admit

:42:18.:42:23.

they got it wrong. I'm grateful, Mister Speaker. Does the Prime

:42:24.:42:28.

Minister believed that the accident and emergency crisis in the NHS has

:42:29.:42:32.

anything to do with the fact that he has cut 6,000 nurses since coming to

:42:33.:42:42.

power? What we see in the NHS is 23,000 fewer nonclinical grades,

:42:43.:42:45.

bureaucrats and managers, taken out of the NHS, and we see 4,000 more

:42:46.:42:50.

clinical staff, including over 5,000 more doctors, in our NHS. That is

:42:51.:42:55.

the change we have seen. Just imagine if we had listened to labour

:42:56.:42:59.

and cut the NHS budget. We believe in the NHS and we have invested in

:43:00.:43:05.

it. How does the chamber of commerce reported that the last economic

:43:06.:43:09.

survey shows real business optimism, with the rise of the number of local

:43:10.:43:15.

firms employing UK staff, a rise in UK orders an attempt cent increase

:43:16.:43:19.

in staff. Theirs my right honourable friend agree that this is evidence

:43:20.:43:23.

that the Government's economic plan is working and the party opposite

:43:24.:43:27.

got it wrong. My honourable friend is right. We had to take tough

:43:28.:43:33.

decisions, but growth is there. Unemployment is falling, we have

:43:34.:43:36.

4,000 more businesses in this country and if we had listened to

:43:37.:43:40.

the Shadow Chancellor, who said we were in for a lost decade of growth,

:43:41.:43:44.

we would have higher debts, higher interest rates and it would be the

:43:45.:43:48.

same old outcome under the same old Labour. In a recent survey, 75% of

:43:49.:43:58.

people said they switch their heating of on one or more occasion

:43:59.:44:04.

-- switched their heating off on one or more occasion last winter. Does

:44:05.:44:08.

that rapidly to Prime Minister expect that to go up or down this

:44:09.:44:15.

year -- does the Prime Minister. We have maintained the winter payments,

:44:16.:44:20.

the cold weather payments and increase benefits the poorest

:44:21.:44:23.

families get in this country. That is the action we have taken and we

:44:24.:44:27.

can only afford to because we have taken tough and sensible decisions

:44:28.:44:34.

on the economy. A few days ago, I launched the business case for the

:44:35.:44:37.

electrification of the Harrogate and Knaresborough rail line, for more

:44:38.:44:41.

trains, faster services and better rolling stock. After the last

:44:42.:44:44.

Government electrified just nine miles in 13 years, can my right

:44:45.:44:49.

honourable friend continue to prioritise rail electrification? He

:44:50.:44:53.

makes a very good point, the last Government did just nine miles of

:44:54.:44:58.

electrification in 13 years. Absolutely pathetic. We are putting

:44:59.:45:02.

?1 billion into modernising railways in the North of England. And let's

:45:03.:45:09.

just look again at this issue of HS2. It needs cross-party agreement

:45:10.:45:11.

to make this important infrastructure scream go ahead, and

:45:12.:45:17.

what a pathetic spectacle this week -- infrastructure scheme. One if

:45:18.:45:20.

they are forward, then they are against it and the Leader of the

:45:21.:45:23.

Opposition is too weak to make a decision. I have come across a very

:45:24.:45:29.

interesting interview given to The Times by the Prime Minister, during

:45:30.:45:32.

which he stopped off at his constituency office, to "turn the

:45:33.:45:37.

heating on, so it is nicer when I get back this afternoon" . How many

:45:38.:45:41.

of my constituents does he think will afford such niceties as we

:45:42.:45:46.

approach this winter? His constituents will understand that

:45:47.:45:49.

their price freeze is a price can't. Prices would go up beforehand,

:45:50.:45:54.

prices would go up afterwards and has he himself has admitted, they

:45:55.:45:57.

wouldn't keep their promise because they don't control gas prices. That

:45:58.:46:05.

is why everybody knows it is a con. One of my constituents from

:46:06.:46:11.

Carmarthen left school at 16 and was told that the only choice had was

:46:12.:46:14.

which prison he might end up in. Four years later he is running a

:46:15.:46:18.

chocolate company. Does the Prime Minister agree that the record

:46:19.:46:25.

number of new business start-ups is as much down to people like him than

:46:26.:46:29.

the excellent work of the Chancellor? I joined my my

:46:30.:46:34.

honourable friend in paying tribute to his constituent and the way he is

:46:35.:46:44.

turning his life around. Of course Labour do not want to hear about

:46:45.:46:49.

success stories. They do not care. They do not care about enterprise

:46:50.:46:52.

and small businesses. But it is this enterprise and small business that

:46:53.:46:58.

is turning around our country. There is a new flat launched in my

:46:59.:47:08.

constituency, built as a result of public money under the government's

:47:09.:47:12.

affordable housing scheme. It is a two bedroom flat and it is ?720,000.

:47:13.:47:21.

Does the Prime Minister believe this to be affordable and if so, to whom?

:47:22.:47:27.

We need to build more houses in our country and that is why we are

:47:28.:47:31.

reforming the planning system which they posed. That is why we have

:47:32.:47:35.

introduced helped by, which they opposed. That is why we introduced

:47:36.:47:39.

extra money into affordable housing. They oppose that. They are

:47:40.:47:45.

the build absolutely nothing party and as a result, housing will become

:47:46.:47:51.

less affordable. Over the last few decades, hundreds of millions of

:47:52.:47:54.

people have been lifted out of poverty in India and China. As those

:47:55.:47:57.

people have increased their living standards, the energy demands have

:47:58.:48:02.

increased. Would my honourable friend agree that if we are to have

:48:03.:48:09.

sustainable, long-term energy, the deal which the Prime Minister

:48:10.:48:17.

heralded is a good idea? Think it is an important step forward to

:48:18.:48:22.

encourage inward investment into our country to fund our nuclear

:48:23.:48:25.

programme. That actually means we're going to have dependable low carbon

:48:26.:48:31.

electricity in the future. And to the people who oppose foreign

:48:32.:48:37.

investment, the party opposite, with all the flip-flops they have done

:48:38.:48:41.

this week, I would not be surprised if they started to oppose nuclear

:48:42.:48:45.

energy, too. Foreign investment means we can use our firepower to

:48:46.:48:49.

build hospitals, schools, roads and where Rose. -- and railways. Does

:48:50.:48:56.

the Prime Minister believe that Royal mail was undervalued? When you

:48:57.:49:02.

consider that Royal mail, in the past, was losing billions of pounds,

:49:03.:49:08.

the whole country is far better off with it in the private sector. I've

:49:09.:49:12.

just talked about flip-flops and there is another one from the Labour

:49:13.:49:17.

Party. Who was it that said we needed to privatise Royal mail?

:49:18.:49:21.

Anyone, anyone? Where is Peter Mandelson when you need him? They

:49:22.:49:25.

said we needed private capital and I'd agree. They said we needed

:49:26.:49:29.

private management and I'd agree. And it has taken this government to

:49:30.:49:37.

deliver the policy. With 450,000 new businesses, we have seen the biggest

:49:38.:49:47.

monthly fall on employment -- in unemployment on record. Unemployment

:49:48.:49:49.

is down by 30%. Would the Prime Minister agreed that by supporting

:49:50.:49:55.

businesses to grow, we can and do labour's legacy of unemployment? My

:49:56.:50:00.

honourable friend is right. Whoever is in government right now would

:50:01.:50:03.

have to be making difficult reductions in the public sector.

:50:04.:50:06.

That will obviously leads to the reduction of public sector jobs. We

:50:07.:50:11.

need a strong private sector recovery and that is what we have

:50:12.:50:14.

seen. 1.4 million more jobs in the private sector, meaning that overall

:50:15.:50:19.

there are 1 million more people employed in our country. That is 1

:50:20.:50:24.

million reasons to stick to our plan and reject the medicine suggested by

:50:25.:50:32.

the party opposite. Current legislation to protect agency

:50:33.:50:36.

workers was designed to stop the export Asian migrant workers and

:50:37.:50:40.

protect the wages and conditions our indigenous workers. I know the Prime

:50:41.:50:45.

Minister has spoken on this issue but can he reassure the House that

:50:46.:50:48.

he will resist any temptation to download even further protection for

:50:49.:50:53.

agency workers? You already has! I want to see more jobs in this

:50:54.:50:57.

country, and that means making sure we keep our flexible workforce. Of

:50:58.:51:01.

course, what the honourable gentleman did not tell us is that he

:51:02.:51:08.

chairs the Unite group of Labour MPs. Perhaps he ought to declare

:51:09.:51:12.

that when he steps up. And while he is at it, perhaps you can have a

:51:13.:51:16.

word with Len McCluskey and say that we need to have a proper enquiry

:51:17.:51:21.

into what happened in Unite, with what happened in Grangemouth.

:51:22.:51:24.

Because we know the leader of the Labour Party is too weak to do it

:51:25.:51:32.

himself. The economy is growing by 1.5% in the last six months. During

:51:33.:51:37.

that time, in my constituency the number of job-seekers has fallen by

:51:38.:51:41.

a fifth. Raising living standards requires rater productivity from a

:51:42.:51:44.

skilled workforce. But in Chippenham, hopes were -- five years

:51:45.:51:48.

ago when the national college building programme ran out of money.

:51:49.:51:52.

We'll be Prime Minister join me in backing Wiltshire College's bid to

:51:53.:52:01.

rebuild our campus, for local students to gain the skills that the

:52:02.:52:06.

employers demand? I agree with what my honourable friend said. We

:52:07.:52:08.

remember the disappointment when labour's planned investment

:52:09.:52:15.

collapsed in so many colleges. It is this government that is now putting

:52:16.:52:17.

in the money to see that expansion and improvement happens. And I'm

:52:18.:52:24.

sure that can happen in Wiltshire as well as Whitby. Since two thirds of

:52:25.:52:31.

the green levies on energy bills were established under this

:52:32.:52:33.

government, why is the Prime Minister attacking himself? Many of

:52:34.:52:42.

the green levies were put in place by the party opposite. Let me remind

:52:43.:52:48.

him that one of the first acts of this government was to take the ?179

:52:49.:52:53.

renewable heat initiative, which the leader of the Labour Party wanted to

:52:54.:52:56.

put on every single persons bill in the country, we took that off the

:52:57.:53:08.

bill. We'll be Prime Minister join me in congratulating the workforce

:53:09.:53:12.

at Toyota in my constituency, as well as manufacturers across the

:53:13.:53:17.

country, whose hard work has ensured that car production went up by 10%

:53:18.:53:22.

in the last year? I certainly join my honourable friend and I remember

:53:23.:53:27.

my own visit to Derby. They do not want to hear good news about

:53:28.:53:31.

manufacturing! They do not want to hear good news about the car

:53:32.:53:36.

industry! This country is now a net exporter of cars and we should be

:53:37.:53:39.

congratulating the workforce at Toyota. We should be congratulating

:53:40.:53:44.

the workforce at Land Rover and praising what they are doing at

:53:45.:53:49.

Nissan. These companies are leading the real industrialisation of our

:53:50.:53:53.

country. I was at the works on Monday were the many is leading to

:53:54.:54:04.

more jobs and British at -- the Mini is leading to more jobs and

:54:05.:54:10.

productivity. Launching a report on electoral conduct yesterday, there

:54:11.:54:14.

was shocking examples of racism and discrimination during election

:54:15.:54:17.

campaigns. We'll be Prime Minister back our call to get political

:54:18.:54:23.

parties, the Electoral Commission and the equality and human rights

:54:24.:54:27.

commission to work more proactively now in areas of tension so that the

:54:28.:54:32.

next election can be a battle of ideas and not race hate. I welcome

:54:33.:54:42.

the report of the enquiry into electoral conduct. I will study the

:54:43.:54:46.

report closely. If there is anything we can do on a cross-party basis to

:54:47.:54:50.

keep this racism out of politics, then we should do so. Fax to the

:54:51.:54:58.

regional growth fund, ?8.8 million is being spent reopening the real

:54:59.:55:04.

link, cutting travel times between Burnley and Manchester in half. But

:55:05.:55:09.

better real regulations are also vital for the South of England. Does

:55:10.:55:12.

the Prime Minister agree with me that it is outrageous for the party

:55:13.:55:16.

opposite to be challenging HS2 at the current time, putting jobs in

:55:17.:55:26.

jeopardy? My honourable friend is right to stand up for his

:55:27.:55:29.

constituents and the North of England. Cos there is a real danger

:55:30.:55:33.

with Labour that they are letting down the North of England, letting

:55:34.:55:37.

down the Midlands. Let me remind the Shadow Chancellor of what he said

:55:38.:55:39.

about these transport investments. He said this. Nowhere is consensus

:55:40.:55:45.

more essential than on our national infrastructure. He said this, "

:55:46.:55:50.

Successive governments have docked or delayed vital decisions on

:55:51.:55:53.

infrastructure, allowing short-term politics to get in the way". That is

:55:54.:55:59.

what he said his own words. He is found guilty of short termism and

:56:00.:56:02.

petty politicking. Rather than looking at the national interests. I

:56:03.:56:16.

sensed that the Prime Minister... The Prime Minister is prepared to

:56:17.:56:19.

gamble, along with the Justice Minister, on the proposals for the

:56:20.:56:23.

probation service, especially in light of the tests and trials being

:56:24.:56:29.

called to a halt. Is he prepared to gamble, especially with the lives

:56:30.:56:34.

and safety of my constituents, and other people in this country? And

:56:35.:56:41.

will his gambling wok holdout? What we want is a service that is much

:56:42.:56:47.

more is focused on stopping reoffending and getting results. And

:56:48.:56:52.

also making sure that we give people rehabilitation from the moment they

:56:53.:56:56.

leave prison. That does not happen today but it is interesting. Body

:56:57.:56:59.

six minutes past 12 and not one question from Labour on the economy.

:57:00.:57:06.

The have got nothing to say. They have nothing to offer and they are

:57:07.:57:09.

embarrassed that prediction after prediction was completely wrong.

:57:10.:57:15.

Like my right honourable friend, I agree... Order! A question from the

:57:16.:57:22.

honourable member must, and it will, be heard. Like my honourable friend,

:57:23.:57:29.

I welcome the fall in unemployment. Indeed, down to 3.7% in my

:57:30.:57:36.

constituency. But will he recognise with me that one of the biggest

:57:37.:57:39.

problems is young people with special needs, particularly autism,

:57:40.:57:45.

getting into work. And will he congratulate the London Borough of

:57:46.:57:47.

Redbridge and the interface parents group, where eight project has

:57:48.:57:54.

started with the first young people with special needs in work? I

:57:55.:58:01.

certainly pay tribute to Redbridge and to all those who help children

:58:02.:58:11.

with special needs. We are trying to focus on those who need the help

:58:12.:58:15.

most. Have a question on the economy for the Prime Minister. -- I have.

:58:16.:58:22.

How about this? Does the Prime Minister agree with his own advisers

:58:23.:58:27.

that the government's youth contract is bailing to tackle the appallingly

:58:28.:58:36.

high levels of youth unemployment? -- failing to tackle. What we have

:58:37.:58:40.

seen with the youth contract is thousands of young people to work

:58:41.:58:44.

through our work experience scheme. It has been more successful in the

:58:45.:58:47.

future jobs fund but has cost six times as little through the youth

:58:48.:58:53.

contract. We have also seen 20,000 young people get work opportunities.

:58:54.:58:56.

That is why the youth claimant count is coming down so rapidly. There is

:58:57.:59:00.

far more to do to get young people into work at the fact that we have

:59:01.:59:04.

backed over 1.5 million apprenticeships is a sign of how

:59:05.:59:07.

much we care about getting young people back to work. Does the Prime

:59:08.:59:14.

Minister agree with President Obama that there needs to be additional

:59:15.:59:17.

constraints on how we use intelligence, that we need to more

:59:18.:59:21.

effectively weigh the risks and rewards of our activities? Will he

:59:22.:59:25.

follow the Prime Minister -- President's leads? I have said this

:59:26.:59:30.

in the House before and I'll repeat it again. We will always listen to

:59:31.:59:33.

what other countries have to say but I believe that in Britain we have a

:59:34.:59:38.

good way of having intelligence and security services overseen by a

:59:39.:59:42.

Parliamentary committee, having their work examined by intelligence

:59:43.:59:45.

commissioners and ensuring that the act under a proper legal basis. I'd

:59:46.:59:49.

take those responsibilities very seriously believe we have a good

:59:50.:59:53.

system in this country and we can be proud of the people that work in it

:59:54.:00:02.

and oversee it. We have recently learned that energy security in this

:00:03.:00:05.

country has been outsourced to the Chinese and French, that pensions

:00:06.:00:09.

will be frozen this year and we have no control over the big six. Does

:00:10.:00:13.

the Prime Minister had any regrets about the cack-handed privatisation

:00:14.:00:18.

of the utilities by the former Tory government and the decimation of our

:00:19.:00:21.

call industry? He backed a firm that never built a

:00:22.:00:48.

single power station. I think we should welcome foreign investment to

:00:49.:00:51.

build these important utilities so we can use our power to run

:00:52.:01:01.

hospitals and the things we need. There are in my constituency soon to

:01:02.:01:05.

be 100 wind turbines. These turbines are paid for by my constituents, but

:01:06.:01:11.

they are not constricted or creating jobs in my constituency. Tension he

:01:12.:01:20.

ensure that the changes in green subsidy that I can he ensure that

:01:21.:01:25.

the changes in green subsidy are here in the United Kingdom. We will

:01:26.:01:40.

aim to retard that investment. Will the Prime Minister join me in paying

:01:41.:01:43.

tribute to the positive role played by trade unions in the work of the

:01:44.:01:52.

automotive Council which has brought about a change in the UK car

:01:53.:01:57.

industry. I think it has been very successful and where trade unions

:01:58.:02:00.

play a positive role, I will be the first prize. But where, frankly, we

:02:01.:02:06.

have a real problem with a rogue trade unionist at Grangemouth who

:02:07.:02:10.

nearly brought the Scottish petrochemical industry to its knees,

:02:11.:02:14.

we need to have a proper enquiry. A Labour enquirer. If they had any

:02:15.:02:21.

courage, any vision, any decision-making they would need to

:02:22.:02:24.

recognise they have to have an enquiry to get to the bottom of what

:02:25.:02:30.

happened. Well, and prime ministers questions,

:02:31.:02:33.

they were still shouting at the end the Prime Minister firing on all

:02:34.:02:41.

cylinders -- at PMQs. The usual confrontation across the dispatch

:02:42.:02:46.

box was dominated by energy prices, which will probably not go away as

:02:47.:02:50.

the winter weather comes in and other energy prices announced what

:02:51.:02:53.

their prices are. You can tell the level of debate that was reached

:02:54.:02:56.

when the primaries the called Ed Miliband a one trick pony who has

:02:57.:03:01.

run out of road -- when the Prime Minister called Ed Miliband. I am

:03:02.:03:05.

not sure ponies use the road. He described the Prime Minister is a PR

:03:06.:03:10.

man for the energy companies. Mister Cameron was once a PR man, but not

:03:11.:03:14.

for the energy companies, it was another monopoly he was a PR man

:03:15.:03:21.

for, called ITV at the time. That is a cheeky aside.

:03:22.:03:27.

Let a return to energy. The emails are about that issue, although some

:03:28.:03:32.

people are getting fed up with the subject being dominated by energy.

:03:33.:03:36.

Ian Franken says that if all the Prime Minister has got personal

:03:37.:03:42.

attacks on Ed Miliband, he has lost the argument. This one says that

:03:43.:03:45.

Cameron is hard to listen to and he has no answer to the energy

:03:46.:03:49.

companies and is part of the problem.

:03:50.:03:52.

Colin in Rugby says that Ed Miliband sees to change the record and his

:03:53.:03:55.

continued questions and sound bites about energy prices show a distinct

:03:56.:03:58.

lack of awareness about everything else on the political agenda. Ray

:03:59.:04:03.

Jones from Ashford says that Labour is clearly a one trick pony. All

:04:04.:04:08.

predictions of doom and gloom have failed so their only card to play is

:04:09.:04:11.

energy, and they have even got that wrong, as they have no answer as to

:04:12.:04:17.

what happens in a rising market. Now, the interesting thing, James,

:04:18.:04:24.

was that all of the discussion was about the energy price freeze,

:04:25.:04:30.

proposed by Ed Miliband. We know, putting aside the economic summit it

:04:31.:04:37.

is a politically popular move. -- putting aside the economics of it.

:04:38.:04:41.

There was no viable alternative from the Prime Minister, even though a

:04:42.:04:46.

week ago he said he would float the idea of reducing the green levies

:04:47.:04:49.

and cut bills. So although the Prime Minister did better than last week,

:04:50.:04:55.

the argument was still on Ed Miliband's territory. I think we saw

:04:56.:05:01.

an attempt to move that argument away by the Prime Minister. Ed

:05:02.:05:04.

Miliband back on the same subject but repeatedly, the Prime Minister

:05:05.:05:08.

tried to draw the gym and back to the economy. The Conservatives were

:05:09.:05:13.

better organised than last week -- draw the argument back. They were

:05:14.:05:17.

trying to drag the subject back, to say that Labour, by focusing solely

:05:18.:05:21.

on energy prices, want to talk about it as an exclusion of everything

:05:22.:05:32.

else. But you are right, they will not be able to draw it away from

:05:33.:05:42.

that until they have cancers. The Autumn statement is not another four

:05:43.:05:46.

weeks -- until they have the answers. The Autumn statement is

:05:47.:05:50.

another four weeks, and looking at the green levies and the social

:05:51.:05:53.

policy, but also the actual transportation, the network costs,

:05:54.:05:57.

which is a large part of that, they are talking about looking at that to

:05:58.:06:00.

see if they can do anything to reduce costs. These are the

:06:01.:06:05.

distribution and transmission costs, they are regulated by off game,

:06:06.:06:14.

because it is the National Grid -- Ofgem, whereas they have no power to

:06:15.:06:18.

regulate retail prices, unlike some regulators in France. Ofgem does

:06:19.:06:24.

regulate these prices and there is a bigger chunk of the bill, because

:06:25.:06:27.

they are having to rebuild a transition system to bring in all of

:06:28.:06:32.

the offshore and onshore wind farms, and solar power, which have gone to

:06:33.:06:35.

areas, unlike the new nuclear stations, which are where the grid

:06:36.:06:41.

already exists. I think they are looking across the piece, they know

:06:42.:06:43.

they have to come up with something, but equally, they have to come up

:06:44.:06:47.

with something that is simple and there has to be a figure at the end

:06:48.:06:50.

of the day. However they cook it, there has to be a number at the end

:06:51.:06:56.

that it can be reduced by. The difficulty the Labour is having set

:06:57.:06:59.

the political weather, since the Labour conference and Ed Miliband's

:07:00.:07:03.

speech, is it now gets overtaken by events. The Government has had the

:07:04.:07:07.

time to look at ways not just freezing the bills but actually

:07:08.:07:11.

cutting the bills. The problem for the Government is they seem to make

:07:12.:07:15.

it up as they go along. We feel a very simple policy, which is to

:07:16.:07:19.

freeze energy prices, woodwork, but this week the Prime Minister is

:07:20.:07:26.

talking about green levies and the distribution network. The reality

:07:27.:07:28.

for people, and I don't think they will get bored with this, because as

:07:29.:07:31.

soon as they bills land on their match at home, they look at it

:07:32.:07:37.

gassed, -- soon as their bills land on their match at home, they look at

:07:38.:07:43.

it gassed. As winter approaches, soon as we get a cold weather snap,

:07:44.:07:49.

nobody once... A lot of people will die, that is a reality. That is what

:07:50.:07:54.

we are saying. We want the Government to act now, that is what

:07:55.:07:58.

we are saying. The Government can act now, you are in Government, you

:07:59.:08:03.

are the party in power. Do something about it. Is an energy person in the

:08:04.:08:07.

past, the promise of a freeze is a straightforward political life. --

:08:08.:08:14.

is an energy person. Because of global prices rising, you cannot

:08:15.:08:19.

deliver that freeze without very expensive subsidies and he's

:08:20.:08:22.

refusing to commit to that. The real issue is whether, in the face of

:08:23.:08:28.

expensive global energy, we have a market which is a fare structure,

:08:29.:08:32.

delivering a competitive environment where people can choose and where

:08:33.:08:38.

companies can give the most efficient prices. There, I think, is

:08:39.:08:43.

a perfectly fair argument, saying let's get an independent group like

:08:44.:08:49.

Ofgem to say here is how it works, here are the facts. Are they saying

:08:50.:08:55.

there is a cartel in this report? No. What we are seeing is that in

:08:56.:08:59.

the course of the last two years, seven new companies have come into

:09:00.:09:03.

the utility supply. We want more companies so it is not dominated by

:09:04.:09:07.

the big six. This is an issue the both of you and the whole political

:09:08.:09:12.

class in Westminster, and it is this, at the moment green levies and

:09:13.:09:15.

those associated with green levies are adding around 10% to add bills,

:09:16.:09:23.

around ?112, you both voted for. You can reject those... Let me finish my

:09:24.:09:32.

point. You have also put into the pipeline, both you and the climate

:09:33.:09:36.

change act and you win the coalition came to power, increases in these

:09:37.:09:39.

levies including the carbon floor tax, which will increase these

:09:40.:09:43.

levies so that they become 30% of our bill by 2020, and well at 40% to

:09:44.:09:51.

the price of electricity -- will add 40%. So it is a strange thing when

:09:52.:09:55.

you are lecturing the energy companies to do something about

:09:56.:09:58.

prices went between you, you have consciously added to the nation's

:09:59.:10:05.

energy bills. That is partly true. As you say, both parties, us, when

:10:06.:10:09.

in Government, and the coalition Government, have introduced green

:10:10.:10:13.

levies, which we have all supported and why? Because there are social

:10:14.:10:17.

policy objectives alongside it. See God but you are adding 40% to the

:10:18.:10:24.

bills. -- you are adding 40% of the bills. In the long run, it will

:10:25.:10:31.

reduce bills and it has contributions towards some of the

:10:32.:10:35.

fuel poor. Are we going to abandon that? People wouldn't be fuel poor

:10:36.:10:39.

if they didn't have to pay these extra levies. And the argument that

:10:40.:10:47.

both parties use, that fewer bills are actually going to be less in

:10:48.:10:56.

2020, involves that a Government department has heroic consumptions.

:10:57.:11:01.

Per unit of retail electricity, the price rises by 40%. Things in the

:11:02.:11:05.

pipeline, the two parties have agreed to. You have a fair point in

:11:06.:11:11.

some aspects, which is, perhaps over the last 15 years, we have put more

:11:12.:11:16.

and more obligations onto the utility companies, be it for

:11:17.:11:19.

addressing a fuel of a teak, rue flagging, -- fuel poverty, roof

:11:20.:11:29.

lagging, and now we say, we hate you, you are expensive. So we have

:11:30.:11:33.

forced on them one economic model and blamed them for the

:11:34.:11:36.

consequences. David Cameron is saying we are going to look at that

:11:37.:11:39.

again, in terms of green levies and is it right that by putting the

:11:40.:11:43.

burden on them, it is the consumer who pays? One of the things the

:11:44.:11:49.

Government did do was abolish the warm front scheme, a subsidy for the

:11:50.:11:56.

fuel poor paid out of taxation. It was transferred to the bill payer. A

:11:57.:12:01.

final thought, James? The Government had to come up with something fairly

:12:02.:12:07.

soon. We know they are working hard. The question is whether or not they

:12:08.:12:11.

ultimately produce enough to match Labour's policy in a retail, simple,

:12:12.:12:20.

straightforward on the door sends, around all of the incredibly

:12:21.:12:29.

complicated organs. And there will be a Daily Politics special on

:12:30.:12:33.

December the 4th about the Autumn statement. Something to look forward

:12:34.:12:38.

to. Now, yesterday, we spoke to prominent British Muslim Mo Ansar.

:12:39.:12:41.

His meeting with the former leader of the English Defence League leader

:12:42.:12:45.

Tommy Robinson was the subject of the BBC documentary. They have

:12:46.:12:52.

campaigned against what they see as the Islamic occasion of Britain.

:12:53.:12:57.

Tommy Robinson is explaining his view of the Koran. You can take

:12:58.:13:03.

sexual slaves. You can take outside of marriage... Tell me that path. I

:13:04.:13:10.

don't think you can find it. It is nice to see you reading it, but it

:13:11.:13:15.

is not making a difference, because you distorted. Marry those that

:13:16.:13:21.

please you of other women, two, three or four. If you fear that that

:13:22.:13:25.

not be just, take what your right arm possesses, like slaves. Where

:13:26.:13:31.

does it say sexual slaves? Where does it say it? Don't distorted?

:13:32.:13:37.

Yesterday, when I spoke to Mo Ansar, he had this to say. I did

:13:38.:13:42.

have an impression of Tommy. I had painted him as some kind of figure

:13:43.:13:50.

like Goebbels, the 21st century. And he wasn't like that? Spending time

:13:51.:13:55.

with someone always humanises them and there is a soft side to Tommy,

:13:56.:13:58.

although his rhetoric has been disturbing and the impact he has had

:13:59.:14:02.

on Muslim communities across the country has been disturbing. Like

:14:03.:14:06.

many people, Tommy is a complex character. Mo Ansar talking about a

:14:07.:14:12.

Tommy Robinson, who is in the studio now. He described you as a complex

:14:13.:14:16.

character. How would you describe him, having spent time with him? I

:14:17.:14:23.

liked him, personality wise. What I found was that he was in denial.

:14:24.:14:27.

Even at the end of watching his interview yesterday, when they

:14:28.:14:30.

brought a grooming, he was trying to push the problem away and when

:14:31.:14:33.

Muslim leaders are given platforms, he spends 95% of his time talking

:14:34.:14:38.

about Islam phobia and all of these different things from people who

:14:39.:14:43.

criticise the ideology. If he spent that time tackling the problems

:14:44.:14:46.

within the community, we might be getting somewhere. But Mo was to be

:14:47.:14:51.

seen as a defender of Muslims and Islam, rather than accepting that we

:14:52.:14:56.

have these problems. He has this image of me, that is the image that

:14:57.:15:01.

everybody has been given of all these ordinary people. Why did you

:15:02.:15:06.

leave the English Defence League? I felt it was the way forward. For

:15:07.:15:10.

years, I had been making a noise and trying to get issues that

:15:11.:15:13.

working-class people were feeling in their communities and then I did not

:15:14.:15:18.

want to... I wanted to be part of the solution. You think the EDL is

:15:19.:15:22.

not working. Are you ashamed that you were part of it? I am not, I am

:15:23.:15:28.

a proud that I started it and it has given people a platform but we need

:15:29.:15:31.

to solve the problems, rather than just making noise about it. Moving

:15:32.:15:36.

forward is working with reformists and true moderates within the

:15:37.:15:39.

Islamic community who are willing to accept the problems. Have you

:15:40.:15:43.

actually changed your views? The documentary was all about you going

:15:44.:15:48.

on a journey of supposedly enlightenment that culminates in

:15:49.:15:52.

your decision to quit the EDL Mobutu tweeted just before the programme

:15:53.:15:59.

that your views haven't changed. I was 20 61 started this movement. I'm

:16:00.:16:03.

on a journey at the present. -- when I started. A lot of my views have

:16:04.:16:11.

been distorted. What is your goal now? Initially, you wanted Muslims

:16:12.:16:15.

out of Britain. You have accepted that that cannot happen. That has

:16:16.:16:22.

never been my goal. Never. My goal now, there is a massive gap.

:16:23.:16:26.

Working-class communities have been pushed to the side and people do not

:16:27.:16:29.

feel part of the fabric of the society. That is not the fault of

:16:30.:16:34.

the Muslim community? There is a reason why working-class children

:16:35.:16:37.

are now the biggest underachievers in this country. There is a reason.

:16:38.:16:41.

People do not feel they have the opportunities. A lot of the

:16:42.:16:44.

opportunity for people to turn to the far right is coming from

:16:45.:16:49.

resentment that they are seeing. My goal is to give a healthy platform

:16:50.:16:53.

for debate, rather than being on the streets, to bring these issues to

:16:54.:16:57.

the forefront. They need to be debated and people need to see that

:16:58.:17:00.

they are getting somewhere with them. Do you still regard Islam as a

:17:01.:17:08.

religion of violence and fascism? I think it is untrue that it is a

:17:09.:17:11.

religion of peace. It is not factual. You believe it has a

:17:12.:17:14.

belligerent of violence? It is down to the interpretations of that

:17:15.:17:20.

Scripture. When I met Osama Hassan from Quilliam, he was a very

:17:21.:17:26.

religious man. He is not calling for violence but we cannot say that

:17:27.:17:31.

people who wish to interpret it for violence can do that. I do not

:17:32.:17:35.

understand what you're trying to achieve. You to stop the

:17:36.:17:39.

Islamification of Britain, as you see it? I saw a poll that said that

:17:40.:17:47.

up to 40% of people believe that this will end in an inevitable

:17:48.:17:50.

violent conflict between Muslims and non-Muslims. That is terrifying.

:17:51.:17:54.

People will start preparing for that. I do not want the communities

:17:55.:17:58.

we live in to be the communities affected by this conflict. But you

:17:59.:18:02.

believe that it is a religion of violence? Do you want to ban the

:18:03.:18:06.

building of mosques? We must regulate mosques. We should not have

:18:07.:18:11.

Iran and Saudi Arabia and Qatar dictating which form of Islam,

:18:12.:18:21.

extremist sects, to move forward. We need a platform. Mo Ansar is the

:18:22.:18:25.

wrong person to be pushing forward because he does not accept the

:18:26.:18:29.

fault. You have to ask a question about an Islamic state, governed by

:18:30.:18:34.

sharia law, do you believe that you should chop off hands? When he was

:18:35.:18:39.

pushed, he could not get out of it. In that clip, you are distorting the

:18:40.:18:46.

fact to fit your narrative. You distorted the facts on a part of the

:18:47.:18:51.

Koran, on keeping women as sexual slaves, and that is how you have

:18:52.:18:59.

interpreted it to link it to the cases of Pakistani men grooming

:19:00.:19:02.

white girls. Do you stand by that? In the Koran, it says 14 times that

:19:03.:19:08.

they can take non-Muslim women as slaves. We have to explore the

:19:09.:19:13.

reasons for why 90% of these grills are men and Muslim men called

:19:14.:19:19.

Mohammed. Maybe the men that are justifying their crimes, in large

:19:20.:19:24.

groups of brothers and cousins and friends from work, that is not

:19:25.:19:27.

normal paedophilia. That is a problem. We have to look into this

:19:28.:19:35.

root cause. Do you speak to anyone in the English Defence League? I

:19:36.:19:39.

have buried my head in the sand because this is a community. It is

:19:40.:19:43.

where I'll live and it is the people I see on a daily basis. I have upset

:19:44.:19:46.

a lot of people but and people who understand the causes, the cause is

:19:47.:19:51.

not to have conflict. Do you still speak to people from the EDL? I have

:19:52.:19:56.

not for two weeks but will I, yet? --. I think the only way to solve

:19:57.:20:02.

the problem is to show people from the English Defence League that this

:20:03.:20:05.

is the way. I believe that they should work and listen and reform

:20:06.:20:11.

and meet my breasts. Do you want to see -- mate more -- meet my breasts.

:20:12.:20:32.

Are you aware that you are more likely to die in hospital at the

:20:33.:20:34.

weekend than during the week? The government wants to change this and

:20:35.:20:39.

provide full-time care seven days a week. It would have thought that,

:20:40.:20:43.

and NHS with seven day a week care? But can we afford it and can the NHS

:20:44.:20:52.

treat people all the time? Thomas Hughes Hallett, the chair of the

:20:53.:20:55.

Institute of Global Health Innovation, thinks that some

:20:56.:20:59.

services need to be provided by charities. This is his soapbox.

:21:00.:21:14.

Most of us look after our cars. We have a contract with society to keep

:21:15.:21:17.

them healthy, while they are on the road. And so we get MOT is and

:21:18.:21:27.

servicing. -- MOTs. If only we treated our bodies so well, we could

:21:28.:21:31.

keep them off the scrapheap or avoid unnecessary trips to A We need to

:21:32.:21:39.

take more responsibility for our health and the health of our

:21:40.:21:43.

families, to keep the health service ticking over for everyone. As a

:21:44.:21:46.

society, we have to understand that if we expect the NHS to cope under

:21:47.:21:51.

the ever increasing wave of demand, it will soon break down. To stop

:21:52.:21:58.

this happening, we need to make some tough choices now about what we

:21:59.:22:03.

really need for free from the health service. And the rest, well, we

:22:04.:22:08.

should accept that we need to pay for it, like extras on a car. And we

:22:09.:22:12.

need to provide more for each other in our own communities. For example,

:22:13.:22:17.

the voluntary sector provides services like bereavement

:22:18.:22:28.

counselling or play therapy we need to see more examples of this instead

:22:29.:22:32.

of murdering -- burdening the service. In my study, what stood out

:22:33.:22:37.

is that people want to take back control of their own care. What they

:22:38.:22:43.

need is Saturn have or trip advisors to point them to what is

:22:44.:22:50.

most successful. Chemists, the community support centres, to steer

:22:51.:22:56.

them away from the NHS when they do not need it and sometimes do not

:22:57.:22:59.

want it. That way we can keep the health service on the road for

:23:00.:23:05.

ourselves and future generations. And Thomas Hughes Hallett joins us

:23:06.:23:10.

now. Welcome to the show. You mentioned bereavement counselling

:23:11.:23:13.

and play therapy come examples of services that the voluntary sector

:23:14.:23:18.

could bring in. Where would you draw the line? The evidence that I'd took

:23:19.:23:22.

in Essex demonstrated that the people of Essex recognised fully

:23:23.:23:25.

that what they want from the state is support and emergency care. And

:23:26.:23:34.

they are realists. They know that in 2030, instead of 35,000 people being

:23:35.:23:39.

dependent on social care, 135,000 people are going to be dependent,

:23:40.:23:43.

and the state cannot possibly afford to provide that. For the sake of

:23:44.:23:47.

this argument, let's accent that that is true. Where would you draw

:23:48.:23:54.

the line? -- lets accept. Should gastric band surgery be on the NHS?

:23:55.:23:59.

Yes, if there is a clinical needs. Acupuncture? Acupuncture, I am a big

:24:00.:24:04.

fan of acupuncture and my wife uses it a lot for her back. But the

:24:05.:24:08.

reality is that there are lots of people out there who would be

:24:09.:24:15.

prepared to offer voluntarily, care that is not necessarily clinical in

:24:16.:24:21.

vitro visual sense. As Chief Executive of Mary Creagh, I had

:24:22.:24:24.

100,000 volunteers who supported us every year, from physiotherapists to

:24:25.:24:36.

surgeons. Berwick in Spain is? If there is a physical reason, yes. --

:24:37.:24:44.

Marie Curie. -- varicose veins. Fertility treatment? This is what

:24:45.:24:51.

makes your thesis or difficult because where do you draw the line?

:24:52.:24:54.

People might accept in theory, the argument. That the NHS should get

:24:55.:24:59.

back to basics. But if we go down that road, the question I am asking

:25:00.:25:03.

is the question that will need to be answered. They will. And difficult

:25:04.:25:08.

questions are going to have to be answered. But what I have to be

:25:09.:25:11.

answered. But what I've learned from talking to hundreds and hundreds of

:25:12.:25:14.

people over the last 12 months is that the public is up for it. It is

:25:15.:25:18.

the politicians who are shying away. Alan, where are you on this? It is

:25:19.:25:24.

free of the point of need and that will not change. But demand exceeds

:25:25.:25:28.

supply other has to be a process for determining what is needed. At the

:25:29.:25:33.

moment, everything is done on the NHS? Not absolutely everything. As

:25:34.:25:40.

Tom says... But you expect it. Lots of people are going to Osteopaths

:25:41.:25:44.

and paying themselves. But for the mainstream medical needs of any

:25:45.:25:48.

person, the health service... But he is not arguing about that. You were

:25:49.:25:53.

saying for four -- you are saying that for that to continue, some of

:25:54.:25:57.

this other stuff will be have to moved off balance sheet. I was asked

:25:58.:26:02.

by the government to do a review of the services that the government

:26:03.:26:06.

should provide for end of life care and published that report years

:26:07.:26:10.

ago, which made it absolutely clear what the government would provide,

:26:11.:26:15.

what the voluntary sector would have to step forwards to provide, and

:26:16.:26:19.

what people would have to provide for themselves. That was accepted. I

:26:20.:26:24.

have to say, this is the thin end of the wedge. They will have real

:26:25.:26:27.

problems if you are going to start charging because certain things will

:26:28.:26:31.

be charged and the fundamental principle of the NHS is that it is

:26:32.:26:35.

free at the point of use. If you start charging, you will have a

:26:36.:26:38.

2-tier NHS and the purist will be excluded from some treatments will

:26:39.:26:42.

stop that is not what I was saying. But that is the consequence of what

:26:43.:26:45.

you are proposing. No one is mentioning charging. That is the

:26:46.:26:49.

consequence. I've spent several days in Canvey Island, working with

:26:50.:26:53.

people who are coming together to provide community support networks

:26:54.:26:57.

to support the professionals to deliver better care to the ageing

:26:58.:27:02.

population. But would that be enough people out there to do that?

:27:03.:27:06.

Absolutely. People want the state to be honest with them. They want state

:27:07.:27:09.

to tell them precisely what they will offer free at the point of

:27:10.:27:16.

delivery. So some of these things will be charged for? They could be

:27:17.:27:19.

and people, many of them are happy to pay. High Court, if I could gets

:27:20.:27:24.

to see a doctor at 6pm at night, when I cannot currently, I might be

:27:25.:27:29.

paired to pay for it. What is happening is that 40% of the people

:27:30.:27:33.

by interview in Essex now no longer go to the state as their first point

:27:34.:27:40.

of contact for health care. 25% of pharmacists, 15% Google. The

:27:41.:27:43.

chemists provided for free, for free! The Tories support this? Will

:27:44.:27:50.

leave this question hanging. I have already entered it. Here is a big

:27:51.:27:55.

political question. Is it? Wait for it. Who is the net one and who is

:27:56.:28:02.

the plural one? Our reward for the best guest of the day goes to that

:28:03.:28:08.

woolly wonder, Alan Duncan. Here is taking up the Daily Politics crush a

:28:09.:28:12.

challenge. We were filming you during PMQs. You are looking at him

:28:13.:28:16.

in action. The speed of the man. His fingers a pillar. And what was the

:28:17.:28:25.

finished product? -- blur. It took me half an hour, and it is a bit

:28:26.:28:30.

scrappy but I have done rather well. More Tory deception! The honest

:28:31.:28:40.

truth... We need to give you the answer to GUESSED THE YEAR. Alan,

:28:41.:28:52.

press it. Mike, in Romford. It is a good time for Essex. That said. The

:28:53.:28:58.

one o'clock News is starting on BBC One. I will be on my own tomorrow

:28:59.:29:04.

doing the Daily Politics. Yeah, me. She is going to crochet. Bye-bye.

:29:05.:29:12.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS