Browse content similar to 03/12/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Good afternoon and welcome to the Daily Politics. 5 billion in trade | :00:41. | :00:45. | |
deals and thousands of jobs as a result, Britain and China now say | :00:46. | :00:50. | |
the relationship is indispensable, but is massive Chinese investment in | :00:51. | :00:54. | |
things like HS2 and nuclear energy really in Britain's interest? | :00:55. | :01:00. | |
George Osborne says the welfare state is no longer affordable, he is | :01:01. | :01:03. | |
expected uses Autumn Statement on Thursday to show how he plans to | :01:04. | :01:08. | |
limit the annual welfare bill, but which benefits would be included and | :01:09. | :01:12. | |
which won't? The UK performance in reading, maths | :01:13. | :01:16. | |
and science has failed to improve in recent years, the coalition says it | :01:17. | :01:20. | |
is a verdict on Labour's education record, Labour - surprise surprise - | :01:21. | :01:25. | |
does not agree. And next year will see the start of | :01:26. | :01:29. | |
a huge programme of events to mark a century since the outbreak of the | :01:30. | :01:33. | |
Great War, but is the Government in a muddle about how to handle the | :01:34. | :01:35. | |
commemoration? All that in the next hour, and with | :01:36. | :01:45. | |
us for the whole programme today is a man with a CV as long as my arm, | :01:46. | :01:50. | |
journalist, historian, author, broadcaster, I will stop there, Sir | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
Max Hastings, welcome to the programme. If you have any thoughts | :01:55. | :01:58. | |
on anything we are discussing today, you can send them to us. Well, let's | :01:59. | :02:10. | |
start with China, because David Cameron is on day two of his visit. | :02:11. | :02:14. | |
Today he has been at a lunch in Shanghai, encouraging businesses to | :02:15. | :02:19. | |
invest in the UK. The Prime Minister said that Britain and China had deep | :02:20. | :02:23. | |
complementary economies. Early in the visit he had talked with Premier | :02:24. | :02:27. | |
Li about co-operation on nuclear power and high-speed rail. Max | :02:28. | :02:33. | |
Hastings, is this a good idea? I wish the Government did not conduct | :02:34. | :02:38. | |
foreign policy in lunches and lurchers, in that every nation has | :02:39. | :02:41. | |
to do business with China, because it is a huge force in the world, but | :02:42. | :02:49. | |
there is something a bit undignified about the Prime Minister almost | :02:50. | :02:52. | |
kowtowing in Beijing. If the Government were able to demonstrate | :02:53. | :02:59. | |
more dignity, I do not believe the headline figure above the 5 billion | :03:00. | :03:03. | |
trade deal instantly signed. It sounds very optimistic. Most trade | :03:04. | :03:08. | |
deals with the Chinese, when you study the small print, it says you | :03:09. | :03:15. | |
will get paid in 2025. He probably had to be there, but one has to suck | :03:16. | :03:19. | |
with a long spoon because they steal intellectual property, the rule of | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
law does not exist as we understand it in China, and it is a bit | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
embarrassing for the Prime Minister that, one week before he sets foot | :03:28. | :03:32. | |
there to gladhanding the Chinese, the Chinese announce this new air | :03:33. | :03:37. | |
defence zone towards the Pacific which could seriously leads to a | :03:38. | :03:43. | |
regional war. How risky is it, then? Taking your point a bit further, we | :03:44. | :03:46. | |
are asking the Chinese to be involved in nuclear power, a very | :03:47. | :03:53. | |
sensitive area. A lot of us feel very uneasy about that, but the | :03:54. | :03:58. | |
Chinese, their record of getting into things, hi-tech things with | :03:59. | :04:05. | |
Western nations, and then you testified that everything goes one | :04:06. | :04:08. | |
way to China, and rather less comes our way. I think a lot of us are | :04:09. | :04:12. | |
very uncomfortable about the Chinese having a strong strategic base. | :04:13. | :04:16. | |
Isn't that the realpolitik of the world as it stands, that China is | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
dominant when it comes to economic affairs and the kowtowing that you | :04:22. | :04:25. | |
talked about is going to be necessary? They need us as | :04:26. | :04:28. | |
customers, but it is a question of how you play your hand of cards, and | :04:29. | :04:32. | |
not only with China, but sometimes you feel, are their grown-ups making | :04:33. | :04:37. | |
foreign policy in Downing Street? Did you sense a difference between | :04:38. | :04:43. | |
the tone towards Sri Lanka on the issue of human rights and, of | :04:44. | :04:48. | |
course, the no mention of it in China? Very obviously, because we | :04:49. | :04:52. | |
want an awful lot out of China! Time for the daily quiz, which is related | :04:53. | :04:58. | |
to David Cameron's visits to China, but which of these is the odd one | :04:59. | :05:03. | |
out? Is it London cabs, High Speed Two, Heathrow Airport, or Weetabix? | :05:04. | :05:10. | |
At the end of the show, we will see of Macs can give us the correct | :05:11. | :05:13. | |
answer, plenty of time to think about it. The welfare state is no | :05:14. | :05:19. | |
longer affordable, so says the Chancellor, George Osborne, who is | :05:20. | :05:22. | |
expected uses Autumn Statement on Thursday to explain how he plans to | :05:23. | :05:26. | |
control spending on welfare after the next election. In short, it | :05:27. | :05:31. | |
could mean more cuts to working age benefits, but one thing the | :05:32. | :05:34. | |
Chancellor will not include in such a cap is spending on the state | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
pension, but should he? New figures out today from the Office for | :05:40. | :05:43. | |
National Statistics show a growing income gap between pensioners and | :05:44. | :05:47. | |
working households. Can a future government afford to protect pension | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
perks? Ahead of the Autumn Statement on Thursday, George Osborne has | :05:53. | :05:55. | |
hinted he would like any future Conservative government to introduce | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
a new cap on welfare spending. This would mean putting permanent limits | :06:01. | :06:04. | |
on around ?100 billion of public spending, on items such as housing | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
benefit and some unemployment payments. Welfare payments account | :06:09. | :06:13. | |
for about a sixth of what the Government spends every year, and | :06:14. | :06:17. | |
the idea would be to set an annual ceiling for welfare spending every | :06:18. | :06:21. | |
four years. However, any such cap will not include state pension | :06:22. | :06:25. | |
payments, which cost a whopping ?74.2 billion in 2001-12 and rising | :06:26. | :06:32. | |
fast. That is largely thanks to the triple lock, which means that the | :06:33. | :06:35. | |
basic state pension goes up by the higher figure out of three variables | :06:36. | :06:41. | |
- the average rise in earnings, inflation or 2.5%. It is an | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
expensive guarantee, because it is predicted to cost the government ?45 | :06:47. | :06:51. | |
billion over the next 15 years. No party has committed to keeping the | :06:52. | :06:54. | |
triple lock on pensions at the triple lock on pensions after 2015, | :06:55. | :06:57. | |
and already Labour and the Liberal Democrats have committed to means | :06:58. | :07:01. | |
testing winter fuel payments. I am joined now by former social security | :07:02. | :07:05. | |
Secretary in John Major's government, Peter by pensions expert | :07:06. | :07:11. | |
Robert Altman. -- Peter Lilley. I want to talk about this welfare | :07:12. | :07:16. | |
cap, has it been tried before? It is not on show shall -- social | :07:17. | :07:23. | |
security, but most apartments have a cap, because the Treasury says, we | :07:24. | :07:27. | |
will set them a total amount, if they start exceeding it, they | :07:28. | :07:32. | |
secretly know where the bodies of buried, weather is excessive | :07:33. | :07:37. | |
expenditure, where the cats be made. So now they are applying that logic | :07:38. | :07:43. | |
to the social security department, the Department of Work and | :07:44. | :07:46. | |
Pensions, which has a certain rationale to it. Did you think about | :07:47. | :07:53. | |
it when you were the secretary? No, I was the poacher, not the | :07:54. | :07:55. | |
gamekeeper, I had previously been in the Treasury. I was carrying out | :07:56. | :08:01. | |
reforms according to my priorities, rather than having them imposed from | :08:02. | :08:05. | |
outside. How would it work in practice? Departments have ceilings | :08:06. | :08:09. | |
on spending, but if you were to do it across the piece, how would that | :08:10. | :08:13. | |
work in practice? It would mean that every year the department, looking | :08:14. | :08:18. | |
ahead to the years ahead, would say, we have only got that amount of | :08:19. | :08:22. | |
money, we have got to tailor benefits and entitlements to fit | :08:23. | :08:27. | |
within it. Now, of course, if there is suddenly achromatic recession -- | :08:28. | :08:33. | |
a dramatic recession, it would not be possible to keep them to the | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
limits and it would be exceeded. That also happens in other | :08:38. | :08:40. | |
departments, if there is suddenly a war, you increase the budget for the | :08:41. | :08:45. | |
MOD. Would you include housing benefit, a large jug of the bill, | :08:46. | :08:49. | |
and unemployment payments? Would you spread everything more thinly or | :08:50. | :08:55. | |
chop something dramatically? As I said, the Treasury is saying, let's | :08:56. | :08:59. | |
leave that decision as to what to do to the Apartment, they will know | :09:00. | :09:03. | |
where the cats can be made most easily. -- the Department. It will | :09:04. | :09:09. | |
force them to come clean on those things, rather than, for example, as | :09:10. | :09:15. | |
was probably imposed on the Department of Work and Pensions this | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
time, which spreads the pain evenly but may not have been the best thing | :09:21. | :09:25. | |
to do. Chances are, governments tend to break their own ceilings, caps, | :09:26. | :09:30. | |
promises, budgetary rules. What would the penalty be, just a rap on | :09:31. | :09:34. | |
the hands, explain to Parliament and knew much? Yes, in effect, but it is | :09:35. | :09:40. | |
a serious penalty to show that you have overspent, the public is very | :09:41. | :09:44. | |
cautious that we as a whole are overspending, that is why we have a | :09:45. | :09:47. | |
huge deficit, and they want to see it brought under control. One could | :09:48. | :09:52. | |
say it would be meaningless in any real terms, and extremely difficult | :09:53. | :09:58. | |
to keep two. I think all these measures that the Treasury uses to | :09:59. | :10:05. | |
get a grip of spending are cumulative, they help, but it is a | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
hugely difficult problem. Has it got out of control, welfare spending? It | :10:10. | :10:16. | |
has been rising for 50 years, until I became Secretary of State, rising | :10:17. | :10:20. | |
twice as fast as national income for 50 years. Since then, it has been | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
under a greater degree of control, but it has been boosted by the | :10:25. | :10:29. | |
recession. Pensions, let's get onto pensions, because that is a vast | :10:30. | :10:33. | |
proportion of that particular budget. The discussion is going to | :10:34. | :10:36. | |
be, should it be included in any cap? You presumably would not want | :10:37. | :10:44. | |
it in. Well, if you have got a sharp increase in the number of | :10:45. | :10:47. | |
pensioners, which we do have, and you try to cap spending, and you | :10:48. | :10:51. | |
have already got the lowest state pension pretty much in the developed | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
world, certainly one of the lowest in the developed world, then you are | :10:56. | :10:58. | |
going to be plunging millions of your citizens back into poverty, | :10:59. | :11:02. | |
which is what we have successfully come out of over the last few years. | :11:03. | :11:07. | |
And that does not strike me was a very sensible way to run an economy, | :11:08. | :11:12. | |
you know. When we talk about pension spending, we are not being a king's | :11:13. | :11:17. | |
ransom for pensioners, we are paying an absolute minimum, so with more | :11:18. | :11:21. | |
and more pensioners, the sadness is that governments in the past have | :11:22. | :11:25. | |
not set aside money to pay for what they knew was coming. We are already | :11:26. | :11:29. | |
increasing the pension age, changing some of the parameters, and in fact | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
the state pension is going to be cut in the future, but with so many more | :11:34. | :11:38. | |
people... At the moment, you know, 12 million pensioners, that is going | :11:39. | :11:42. | |
to significantly increase. Why would you want to stop that kind of | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
spending? Because it is unaffordable. What would you say? By | :11:48. | :11:52. | |
and large, where you have a contributory benefits, people know | :11:53. | :11:55. | |
the terms, it is more or less politically impossible to cut it. | :11:56. | :12:00. | |
Should it be? We have added these locks, inflation, 2.5%, but that is | :12:01. | :12:08. | |
not the rules they were paying into it under. You would like to see that | :12:09. | :12:15. | |
go after 2015? Certainly. Is it affordable to continue the triple | :12:16. | :12:18. | |
lock posts 2015 so that pensions are paid at that highest rate? Coming | :12:19. | :12:24. | |
back to the basic point, there is no more money, and I had a conversation | :12:25. | :12:31. | |
with the mayor of Chicago, who was Obama's chief of staff, and he said | :12:32. | :12:35. | |
every politician in the Western world except the Governor of North | :12:36. | :12:38. | |
Dakota, weather is gas for fracking, has the same problem. We | :12:39. | :12:47. | |
have to reconcile electrics with -- electorates with how we will win the | :12:48. | :12:51. | |
election. The argument has been that they have had a good recession, that | :12:52. | :12:57. | |
is a blunt instrument, but compared to working households, somehow they | :12:58. | :13:02. | |
have not had to deal with the same sort of restrictions that working | :13:03. | :13:05. | |
households have. Do you agree that it is not affordable to continue, as | :13:06. | :13:11. | |
is put by politicians, with the rise in pensions? I do not agree. We need | :13:12. | :13:16. | |
to look at the overall envelope of spending that we have, which is | :13:17. | :13:20. | |
dedicated to older people, and find different ways of actually slicing | :13:21. | :13:25. | |
the way we spend the money. For example, we have means tested | :13:26. | :13:30. | |
benefits. People, we have non-means tested, non-tax benefits, like | :13:31. | :13:36. | |
winter fuel payments. -- for some people. We are going to save | :13:37. | :13:40. | |
significant sums by increasing the state pension age and encouraging | :13:41. | :13:43. | |
older people generally to work longer has to be part of the | :13:44. | :13:48. | |
solution, but you cannot leave millions of your citizens in poverty | :13:49. | :13:51. | |
and call yourself a civilised country. And won't that happen? If | :13:52. | :13:56. | |
you get rid of the triple lock, if you do not keep spending at a | :13:57. | :14:00. | |
reasonable level, we are all getting older, that is what will happen, | :14:01. | :14:06. | |
many more people living in poverty. The new when they were paying in | :14:07. | :14:09. | |
that it would be prevented against inflation, we should keep that | :14:10. | :14:16. | |
guarantee. -- they knew. But to go up as much as Jennings, even if | :14:17. | :14:21. | |
inflation is less, is in the present circumstances not affordable. -- as | :14:22. | :14:27. | |
much as earnings. What about the winter fuel payments? They are not | :14:28. | :14:31. | |
means tested, should that be done after 2015? There is a perfectly | :14:32. | :14:38. | |
reasonable case for that, it is obvious, not obvious to me that we | :14:39. | :14:44. | |
should receive such a benefit. We should not have all these silly | :14:45. | :14:47. | |
little benefits. Isn't it a knee-jerk idea that we have to feel | :14:48. | :14:51. | |
sorry for pensioners? It is the next generation who will retire that we | :14:52. | :14:55. | |
should feel sorry for, because at the moment a lot of older people, | :14:56. | :14:59. | |
not the poor, but people who have got to be protected, but a lot of | :15:00. | :15:03. | |
elderly people are much better off than the next generation of going to | :15:04. | :15:06. | |
be. It is the ones who will retire in ten or 15 years that will be in | :15:07. | :15:16. | |
terrible trouble. Around the top 20% of current pensioners are reasonably | :15:17. | :15:22. | |
well off. 80% run pretty low incomes, averaging around ?15,000 a | :15:23. | :15:27. | |
year. Somebody in work would call that a low income. The state pension | :15:28. | :15:32. | |
will be around ?7,000 a year, that is it. I agree that the 2.5% figure | :15:33. | :15:39. | |
is a bit arbitrary, a triple lock with 2.5% does not really make sense | :15:40. | :15:44. | |
to me, that deciding whether you want earnings or price inflation is | :15:45. | :15:49. | |
a separate discussion. You can do a double lock or you can say that | :15:50. | :15:53. | |
pensioners have to take the same earnings increases as people in | :15:54. | :15:57. | |
work, or you can say we do not care about earnings, let's tie to prices. | :15:58. | :16:04. | |
What about including pensions in any cap? Ed Balls, the Shadow | :16:05. | :16:08. | |
Chancellor, talked about the idea and perhaps regretted it could be | :16:09. | :16:14. | |
brought in? Would you agree with it? You can predict pretty clearly the | :16:15. | :16:19. | |
number of pensioners and how much they will be paid, you incorporate | :16:20. | :16:26. | |
that when setting up the cap. It is to stop frightening pensioners that | :16:27. | :16:30. | |
you do not included. I would not included in the cap for | :16:31. | :16:34. | |
presentational reasons. Would you included? Yes. So far, on one of the | :16:35. | :16:42. | |
issues I am always being reminded about by my new rich friends, the | :16:43. | :16:46. | |
cuts in public spending will come nowhere near avoiding this past | :16:47. | :16:50. | |
problem looming over our children and grandchildren of facing a | :16:51. | :16:54. | |
completely unaffordable welfare state. We have to go much further in | :16:55. | :16:58. | |
the next generation. One of the reasons for having serious doubts | :16:59. | :17:04. | |
about whether Ed Miliband is fit to govern this country, we should not | :17:05. | :17:07. | |
believe him until he has come clean about where he will save money with | :17:08. | :17:12. | |
these huge bills the state is now facing. Thank you both, Ros Altmann | :17:13. | :17:18. | |
and Peter Lilley. The editor of the Guardian will be appearing before | :17:19. | :17:22. | |
the Home Affairs Select Committee later to answer questions about the | :17:23. | :17:25. | |
publication of the Edward Snowden security leaks. | :17:26. | :17:29. | |
Last month, British spy chiefs were scathing about the impact of the | :17:30. | :17:33. | |
revelations on national security. Giles is at portcullis house. You | :17:34. | :17:39. | |
say they were scathing, it was a difference security committee, but | :17:40. | :17:44. | |
it is the same subject. The head of MI6, M, if you like, said that | :17:45. | :17:52. | |
Al-Qaeda would be rubbing their hands with glee about the things | :17:53. | :17:55. | |
that the Guardian published, the Edward Snowden revelations. Alan | :17:56. | :18:00. | |
Rusbridger will appear before the Home Affairs Select Committee. It is | :18:01. | :18:06. | |
chairman, Keith Vaz, joins me. What do you want to hear from him? We | :18:07. | :18:11. | |
will put our questions at the time, but it is very good that Alan | :18:12. | :18:15. | |
Rusbridger has appeared to come before the committee. Some of the | :18:16. | :18:19. | |
American newspapers believe we have summoned him and making him do this, | :18:20. | :18:25. | |
it is an essential part of our enquiry into counter-terrorism, so | :18:26. | :18:29. | |
even before these revelations the committee wanted to look at these | :18:30. | :18:33. | |
issues, but what the Guardian has published in the last year is | :18:34. | :18:36. | |
relevant to the discussions we will have, the idea of public interest as | :18:37. | :18:40. | |
opposed to the points made by Sir John Sawers and the other head of | :18:41. | :18:44. | |
the security services when they appear. It does not matter what we | :18:45. | :18:51. | |
think about the Edward Snowden revelations or what I think, those | :18:52. | :18:55. | |
people in charge of security were very clear about what damage it had | :18:56. | :19:02. | |
done. The point often made is, is a newspaper editor the right person to | :19:03. | :19:06. | |
make those decisions? Presumably you will want to see some kind of CV | :19:07. | :19:13. | |
justification? These are important questions to be put to Alan | :19:14. | :19:16. | |
Rusbridger. You are absolutely right. I have read the transcript | :19:17. | :19:21. | |
and seen the recording of the appearance of the three spy chiefs, | :19:22. | :19:24. | |
if we can call the matter, before our sister committee, and they are | :19:25. | :19:30. | |
pretty upset over what has been happening, as our senior members of | :19:31. | :19:34. | |
the government and others. I don't think it is a party issue, I think | :19:35. | :19:38. | |
there is a general feeling that questions are to be answered and | :19:39. | :19:43. | |
that is why we are keen to hear from Alan Rusbridger. He needs the | :19:44. | :19:46. | |
opportunity, it is a big opportunity for him to put his views forward and | :19:47. | :19:51. | |
we are glad he is appearing. I wonder whether it has rather | :19:52. | :20:04. | |
polarised on is Guradianesque, if you like, and wonder how dare the | :20:05. | :20:10. | |
Government do this? On the other hand, some people might feel the | :20:11. | :20:14. | |
Guardian has been irresponsible. Have you seen this polarisation? We | :20:15. | :20:21. | |
do not go in there to do party politics, we ask questions relevant | :20:22. | :20:28. | |
to our enquiries. We all need to show an interest, we are all | :20:29. | :20:32. | |
Guardian readers, some of us read it avidly, some of us don't, that is an | :20:33. | :20:36. | |
interest we will have to declare, just like we all watch the BBC from | :20:37. | :20:41. | |
time to time. I think questions will be asked of Alan Rusbridger, he is | :20:42. | :20:45. | |
perfectly capable of dealing with this well and I am sure he will do. | :20:46. | :20:50. | |
He originally wanted to bring his deputy editor, that he wants to come | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
alone and I think he will help us with the difficult task of | :20:56. | :20:58. | |
fashioning a new counterterrorism policy. You can watch it on the BBC, | :20:59. | :21:06. | |
of course dashed from time to time! What is interesting is that Alan | :21:07. | :21:09. | |
Rusbridger is coming along to give the evidence about the Edward | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
Snowden thing, Bagram Greenwald, the journalist who got the information | :21:15. | :21:20. | |
from Edward Snowden, said recently that they might have stuff in the | :21:21. | :21:28. | |
can. To a very avid Guardian reader, I am sure, Max Hastings. Did the | :21:29. | :21:36. | |
Guardian perform a public service? The truth always seems to lie in the | :21:37. | :21:40. | |
middle. It is a very good newspaper which does many good things, but | :21:41. | :21:47. | |
over this particular episode, one found Alan Rusbridger's moral | :21:48. | :21:55. | |
conceit was hard to take. Some of us find that all nations need security | :21:56. | :22:01. | |
secrets. Allen thinks that no secrets matter and he as editor is | :22:02. | :22:05. | |
fit to decide what should be published, some can't go along with | :22:06. | :22:14. | |
that. But what has emerged from the Snowden revelations, although I am | :22:15. | :22:17. | |
somebody who wishes it did not happen, is that there is more | :22:18. | :22:21. | |
scrutiny and supervision, because they have been doing things that | :22:22. | :22:28. | |
many of us will not agree with. Does that in some way to vindicate Alan | :22:29. | :22:31. | |
Rusbridger's decision, because there are things that we know about that | :22:32. | :22:35. | |
we would not have before and it might put pressure on the | :22:36. | :22:39. | |
intelligence services to be more open? I and many people feel | :22:40. | :22:44. | |
uncomfortable but Allen, without reference to anybody else, has | :22:45. | :22:46. | |
published a lot of stuff which undoubtedly makes the security of | :22:47. | :22:51. | |
our society more difficult. The fact that he might have done it for the | :22:52. | :22:57. | |
good is not relevant. He unloaded a dumper truck are very sensitive | :22:58. | :23:02. | |
information, including names of people of all shapes and sizes. We | :23:03. | :23:08. | |
face threats, Al-Qaeda is a threat, it is no good the Guardian | :23:09. | :23:12. | |
pretending they're not threats. If I have to judge between trust in the | :23:13. | :23:16. | |
judgment of the intelligence or Alan Rusbridger, by a narrow margin, I | :23:17. | :23:21. | |
would choose the intelligence services. | :23:22. | :23:23. | |
Next year will be the centenary of the start of the First World War - | :23:24. | :23:27. | |
the chance to pay tribute to the fallen. For some, it's an | :23:28. | :23:30. | |
opportunity to remind ourselves of the futility of war and reflect that | :23:31. | :23:33. | |
millions of lives from all sides were lost. Others, including our | :23:34. | :23:36. | |
guest today, Sir Max Hastings, believe that would fail to tell the | :23:37. | :23:40. | |
whole story, and that far from being a senseless sacrifice, World War I | :23:41. | :23:43. | |
should be remembered as a conflict which simply had to be won against a | :23:44. | :23:47. | |
Germany which, at the time, was intent on dominating Europe. But to | :23:48. | :23:50. | |
what degree should present-day sensitivities influence our view of | :23:51. | :23:51. | |
the past? David Thompson reports. The war to end all Wars, an horrific | :23:52. | :24:10. | |
waste of life. Next you, a century later, the chance to give voice to | :24:11. | :24:16. | |
the millions of mouthful is dead. When we commemorate the centenary of | :24:17. | :24:20. | |
the start of World War I, what are we remembering? Simply sack -- | :24:21. | :24:26. | |
simpler remembering the sacrifice is, for some, not enough. Perhaps we | :24:27. | :24:31. | |
should remember what led to war and why they died, even if that trip on | :24:32. | :24:36. | |
what day sensibilities. The soldiers who gave their lives in world will | :24:37. | :24:44. | |
-- World War I were anything but victims. The price was | :24:45. | :24:48. | |
excruciatingly high. And the nature of war on the Western front was | :24:49. | :24:54. | |
awful. But it was not in vain. There were great strategic reasons to | :24:55. | :25:01. | |
contain what Germany had in mind at the time. For some, particularly in | :25:02. | :25:08. | |
Germany, what caused the great War is less important than what adults | :25:09. | :25:13. | |
medley lead to. What remains is the defining event of the 20th century | :25:14. | :25:17. | |
for Germany is, of course, the Holocaust. I think that is the | :25:18. | :25:20. | |
difference. Rather than remembering the dead and worshipping heroes, as | :25:21. | :25:27. | |
Britain tends to do, Germany looks at the biggest tragedy of mankind, | :25:28. | :25:32. | |
of human history, and tries to extrapolate from that lessons for | :25:33. | :25:38. | |
today. The BBC intends to dedicate 2500 hours of programming over the | :25:39. | :25:43. | |
next four hours to the conflict, including 130 newly commissioned | :25:44. | :25:48. | |
programmes. Government has set aside ?50 million for projects | :25:49. | :25:50. | |
commemorating the start of the great War. How will that go down in | :25:51. | :25:55. | |
Germany? With a degree of bemusement, not least because | :25:56. | :25:59. | |
Germany, in a way, has given up on its military tradition the Second | :26:00. | :26:03. | |
World War. The military tradition in Britain, of course, is very strong. | :26:04. | :26:08. | |
The Germans will look at Britain and see a lot of military pomp, which | :26:09. | :26:13. | |
will seem a bit alien. Whatever the view of the watching world, for | :26:14. | :26:18. | |
some, most important is to tell the historical truth. You can't airbrush | :26:19. | :26:23. | |
history just because the values of the time of history of which we | :26:24. | :26:30. | |
speak don't coincide with today. That doesn't marry up. You can only | :26:31. | :26:33. | |
judge it through the prism of that time, the prism of Britain, France | :26:34. | :26:40. | |
and Germany as they were at that time. Next year, of all years, we | :26:41. | :26:46. | |
won't forget. We will never forget. But what we choose to remember and | :26:47. | :26:50. | |
how we remember our past may shine a light on who we are now. | :26:51. | :26:52. | |
Andrew Murrison is the Special Representative for Great War | :26:53. | :26:55. | |
Centenary Commemorations, as well as being a defence minister. And our | :26:56. | :26:58. | |
guest of the day, Sir Max Hastings, also has a particular interest in | :26:59. | :27:04. | |
this area. He has written a new book about the start of the Great Wall. | :27:05. | :27:11. | |
Max Hastings, what is your problem with the government's commemoration | :27:12. | :27:17. | |
programme? The Government has repeatedly used the word | :27:18. | :27:21. | |
nonjudgemental about the approach it proposes to adopt. I am by no means | :27:22. | :27:25. | |
the only historian that takes this view very strongly that it is not | :27:26. | :27:29. | |
enough just to take an awful lot of schoolchildren to France and stand | :27:30. | :27:32. | |
them in cemeteries and say, gosh, wasn't it awful? Part of a function | :27:33. | :27:39. | |
of the commemoration - never use the word celebration - is has to be | :27:40. | :27:43. | |
explaining why it happened. Is that not what you will do? I think this | :27:44. | :27:50. | |
was not in vain. I think those who went to war in 1914 had a very clear | :27:51. | :27:54. | |
sense of doing the right thing. The Prime Minister of the day was right | :27:55. | :28:02. | |
to act as he did when Germany marched through Belgium and | :28:03. | :28:06. | |
threatened France. We need to understand that full well, which is | :28:07. | :28:11. | |
not in any way to be jingoistic. That would be inappropriate for the | :28:12. | :28:17. | |
centenary. That sounds encouraging, because it suggests you have moved | :28:18. | :28:20. | |
on from the nonjudgemental approach, which means you have | :28:21. | :28:28. | |
listened about. Have you change? -- have you changed? Wii we debated in | :28:29. | :28:34. | |
the House of Commons on the 7th of November, there was a surprise in | :28:35. | :28:37. | |
amount of agreement. Furthermore, the polling data available to us | :28:38. | :28:42. | |
suggests we are in the right place in terms of public opinion, which is | :28:43. | :28:50. | |
always reassuring. In terms of sensitivities regarding Germany, how | :28:51. | :28:53. | |
big a part of the Government's thinking was that? It would be an | :28:54. | :29:00. | |
extreme irony if after the centenary of this terrible conflict we ended | :29:01. | :29:05. | |
up in an inn have -- and unhappy place with respect to our | :29:06. | :29:09. | |
21st-century friends and allies. We have no intention of flag-waving, | :29:10. | :29:17. | |
being militaristic or jingoistic. One thing I find extraordinary is | :29:18. | :29:20. | |
that all of us feel an enormous respect for modern Germany, but we | :29:21. | :29:25. | |
don't have a problem with saying that in 1948 was absolutely right | :29:26. | :29:29. | |
that we fought the evil of Hitler's Germany. But we sometimes have a | :29:30. | :29:33. | |
problem with saying that in the First World War it was a problem. I | :29:34. | :29:44. | |
was speaking to a noted historian, and she said that while the world | :29:45. | :29:48. | |
will never forgive Hitler, they seem willing to forgive the Kaiser. I | :29:49. | :29:54. | |
hope the Government's rhetoric for the centenary will say explicitly | :29:55. | :29:59. | |
that all those who died, and it was a colossal tragedy, a catastrophe, | :30:00. | :30:03. | |
there was a cause, and if Germany had won the First World War it would | :30:04. | :30:07. | |
have been almost as ghastly a catastrophe for Europe as if Hitler | :30:08. | :30:11. | |
had one. Do you accept that description that somehow World War | :30:12. | :30:19. | |
II sort of dominate people's thoughts about history in the 20th | :30:20. | :30:22. | |
century, and to some extent has eclipsed the reasons we went to war | :30:23. | :30:30. | |
in 1914 and what was achieved? This is the difference between Max and | :30:31. | :30:38. | |
me, I would not conflate the evils of Nazi Germany with... There was no | :30:39. | :30:47. | |
Holocaust, but Michael Howard has made the point that Germany's | :30:48. | :30:51. | |
territorial objectives in World War I were not much different from those | :30:52. | :30:56. | |
of Hitler a generation later. What is hugely ironic if there is no | :30:57. | :31:01. | |
sense of evil associated with Wilhelmine Germany, as there is with | :31:02. | :31:06. | |
Hitler. We did not go to war for the Jews, but in 1945, the revelation of | :31:07. | :31:11. | |
the Holocaust, in the eyes of posterity, it established the evil | :31:12. | :31:15. | |
of Nazism, and there is nothing comparable in 1918, and this has | :31:16. | :31:20. | |
made it difficult for people to understand why Wilhelmine Germany | :31:21. | :31:23. | |
also would have been a very bad force is a tad won in Europe in | :31:24. | :31:28. | |
1918. Nothing comparable for a very good reason, because Nazi Germany, | :31:29. | :31:33. | |
national socialism and what happened as a result of it, was the very | :31:34. | :31:37. | |
quintessence of evil. I would strongly maintain that. In terms of | :31:38. | :31:41. | |
German attitudes, we have been working very closely with Germany, | :31:42. | :31:45. | |
Germany is a modern, 21st century state with whom we have the closest | :31:46. | :31:50. | |
of bonds, and I am interested to explore German thinking on this | :31:51. | :31:54. | |
matter. They don't want to talk about it at all! They would prefer | :31:55. | :31:59. | |
not to, but they understand they have to, because all of us, | :32:00. | :32:02. | |
Britain, France, the former empire, we are going to be talking about it | :32:03. | :32:07. | |
during the four-year period, and their attitude is surprisingly as is | :32:08. | :32:10. | |
the case with so much on this centenary. What is missing for you | :32:11. | :32:15. | |
in these commemorations? To tell people why it happened, to explain | :32:16. | :32:21. | |
their was a cause. The Blackadder view that it was futile is simply | :32:22. | :32:25. | |
not true, it was ghastly but not futile. There has been an awful lot | :32:26. | :32:29. | |
about the trenches, not just the futility of it, although that has | :32:30. | :32:33. | |
been a major part of teaching and museums' coverage of World War I, | :32:34. | :32:37. | |
but there was a great sacrifice made for the greater good - has that not | :32:38. | :32:42. | |
come across more recently? What I would like to see happen on this | :32:43. | :32:46. | |
centenary, a veteran who had fought in the trenches wrote a very good | :32:47. | :32:53. | |
book called A Schoolboy Goes To War in 1978, and he encapsulated the | :32:54. | :32:57. | |
view that should be put across - he said he deplored the idea that the | :32:58. | :33:02. | |
poets who said it was all futile spoke for his generation. He said, I | :33:03. | :33:08. | |
and my kind went into the war expecting a heroic adventure and | :33:09. | :33:10. | |
believing passionately in the justice of our cause. We are merged | :33:11. | :33:14. | |
bitterly disillusioned about the nature of the adventure but still | :33:15. | :33:17. | |
believing passionately in the justice of our cause. So you need to | :33:18. | :33:25. | |
play up the heroic part of it, but it was a necessary but heroic | :33:26. | :33:29. | |
adventure. Many people feel it was futile, that trench warfare was | :33:30. | :33:32. | |
pointless, lives lost four inches of territory. I agree with the man that | :33:33. | :33:40. | |
Max refers to in his extremely good book, and I think he spoke for his | :33:41. | :33:44. | |
generation, so far as you possibly can speak for a generation. I know | :33:45. | :33:48. | |
my own grandfather, who was involved in this, felt pretty well the same | :33:49. | :33:53. | |
way. It was a terrible catastrophe, the title of your book was well | :33:54. | :33:56. | |
chosen, but we have to accept that it was done for good reason, based | :33:57. | :34:01. | |
upon the information that was available at the time in the summer | :34:02. | :34:05. | |
of 1914. I think very few of in positions of power or responsibility | :34:06. | :34:09. | |
today, faced with the same calculus, would make a difference decision. | :34:10. | :34:14. | |
Briefly, what difference does it make any modern world, talking about | :34:15. | :34:17. | |
the righteousness of this walk you Mike Watt will it change or do? If | :34:18. | :34:21. | |
we are ever going to court about the past, we have got to grow up a bit. | :34:22. | :34:29. | |
We have this idea that the two world wars belonged to different moral | :34:30. | :34:33. | |
orders, that the Second World War was an heroic moment and the First | :34:34. | :34:36. | |
World War was the bad war, and we have to get more grown-up about | :34:37. | :34:40. | |
that, otherwise all this money being spelt, all the parade and | :34:41. | :34:43. | |
commemorations will be for nothing unless we can explain to a new | :34:44. | :34:47. | |
generation what this was about. Thank you very much. How good are | :34:48. | :34:55. | |
Britain's schools? This morning new international comparisons for maths, | :34:56. | :34:59. | |
science and reading were published. The so-called PISA rankings are | :35:00. | :35:03. | |
produced every three years, and last time they came out the UK's showing | :35:04. | :35:07. | |
was not particularly great. Hywel Griffith is at a school in Cardiff. | :35:08. | :35:14. | |
Grim reading for Wales, the lowest ranked UK nation according to PISA, | :35:15. | :35:20. | |
why so bad? That is what I have been asking people, teachers, unions this | :35:21. | :35:26. | |
morning. The answer is complicated, but some are pointing to decisions | :35:27. | :35:29. | |
made in the early years of devolution about ten years ago to | :35:30. | :35:33. | |
get rid of testing, to get rid of league tables, so that some of the | :35:34. | :35:37. | |
15-year-old who would have taken the tests in Wales last year, it would | :35:38. | :35:40. | |
have been their first external exam. They would not have been through | :35:41. | :35:45. | |
that kind of pressure before. Others say the schools do not really aimed | :35:46. | :35:48. | |
towards PISA, GCSEs are much more important, so the whole ethos is | :35:49. | :35:53. | |
geared around that set of qualifications instead of taking | :35:54. | :35:56. | |
PISA seriously. The Welsh government has said the results are | :35:57. | :36:00. | |
disappointing, they are on top of disappointing results three years | :36:01. | :36:03. | |
ago. They said they have made curriculum changes as a result of | :36:04. | :36:07. | |
the bad news three years ago, but of course it could take a decade for | :36:08. | :36:10. | |
those to work their way through the system. The Conservatives have been | :36:11. | :36:15. | |
quick to blame Welsh Labour, how much can be pinned on Labour in | :36:16. | :36:22. | |
Wales? Labour has been in government here since the start of devolution | :36:23. | :36:27. | |
and the election in 1999, so it is hard for Labour to deny that it has | :36:28. | :36:32. | |
been in charge of the education of these 15 and 16-year-olds who we are | :36:33. | :36:37. | |
looking at in terms PISA. However, they do point towards changes they | :36:38. | :36:41. | |
have made more recently, which they say will eventually be better than | :36:42. | :36:44. | |
the changes being made now by the coalition in England. There has been | :36:45. | :36:48. | |
a very recent focus on numeracy and literacy. I think, however, if we | :36:49. | :36:53. | |
look towards 2015, we are going to hear a lot of arguments between the | :36:54. | :36:57. | |
coalition parties and Labour over who is doing best, and that is why | :36:58. | :37:01. | |
the difference between Wales, Scotland, England and Northern | :37:02. | :37:05. | |
Ireland matters, because this is Labour in government, where they | :37:06. | :37:08. | |
have been making decisions, and sadly it is the country that is | :37:09. | :37:13. | |
bottom of the class at the moment. Let's get onto a bit of the blame | :37:14. | :37:17. | |
game with education Minister Elizabeth Truss and Shadow Education | :37:18. | :37:20. | |
Secretary in the, welcome to both of you. Since 2000... Why have we not | :37:21. | :37:31. | |
seem to matter change? I think it is a verdict on the Labour | :37:32. | :37:36. | |
government's lack of reforms over ten years. There are only 200 | :37:37. | :37:42. | |
academies in place by the time Labour left office, and at the same | :37:43. | :37:46. | |
time we saw rampant grade inflation over that period, but we did not see | :37:47. | :37:52. | |
an improvement in performance in the international tests, so what has | :37:53. | :37:56. | |
happened is a failure to reform. We are now putting in place the | :37:57. | :38:01. | |
building blocks for form. So a new curriculum, will focus on maths and | :38:02. | :38:03. | |
science, we are seeing the numbers of students taking those subject | :38:04. | :38:09. | |
increasing. We are seeing academies having the freedoms they need to | :38:10. | :38:13. | |
deliver, but the OECD has been very clear that this is too early to | :38:14. | :38:18. | |
judge this government, that the 2012 test is a verdict on Labour's 13 | :38:19. | :38:22. | |
years in office, which resulted in Nottingham, even though Tony Blair | :38:23. | :38:27. | |
talked about education, education, education. So in a massive climb for | :38:28. | :38:34. | |
UK and the individual nations? We have said it will take a decade for | :38:35. | :38:37. | |
our reforms to come through in full, and that is what we have seen in | :38:38. | :38:42. | |
Germany and Poland, which did reforms in nearly 2000s. After a | :38:43. | :38:47. | |
decade of putting in place school autonomy, curriculum reforms, higher | :38:48. | :38:50. | |
standards, they started to see was old, but the full results took a | :38:51. | :38:55. | |
decade, and we need much more long-term thinking in education. | :38:56. | :38:57. | |
There has been too much short-term is in the past, and we have to | :38:58. | :39:02. | |
recognise children are in school for 13 years, they need time to embed | :39:03. | :39:07. | |
those reforms, and we need to keep going. We cannot take our foot off | :39:08. | :39:12. | |
the accelerator. We have been carrying on with our reforms. But | :39:13. | :39:16. | |
there has been a people, which is what teachers seem to complain | :39:17. | :39:19. | |
about. There is no doubts that Elizabeth Truss is right, look at | :39:20. | :39:23. | |
the figures, the timing of when Labour was in power, Labour did not | :39:24. | :39:29. | |
do anything in terms of improving educational standards. I do not | :39:30. | :39:32. | |
accept that in terms of the performance in England, we can come | :39:33. | :39:36. | |
to Wales in a moment, but there is clear evidence that in the early | :39:37. | :39:40. | |
years of Labour there were great strides forward in literacy and | :39:41. | :39:44. | |
numeracy, there were very cool levels back in 1987, but if you look | :39:45. | :39:50. | |
at the detail of the OECD report, we have held our position. It is a | :39:51. | :39:54. | |
wake-up call for all of us, to look at these reports in detail, and look | :39:55. | :39:57. | |
at the kind of reforms and messages it gives us, and the message it | :39:58. | :40:01. | |
gives us is that what we ought to do is follow what is happening in the | :40:02. | :40:06. | |
countries that are very successful, like any far east, where they have | :40:07. | :40:10. | |
high standards in maths, and not follow the countries that are | :40:11. | :40:12. | |
plummeting down the league tables, like Sweden and America, which is, | :40:13. | :40:19. | |
strangely, the way that the government is reforming the system, | :40:20. | :40:23. | |
by allowing unqualified teachers, by atomising and fragmenting the | :40:24. | :40:26. | |
schools system. Instead of giving them autonomy within a framework of | :40:27. | :40:31. | |
accountability for schools... Sweden is below us on the table. Because | :40:32. | :40:37. | |
they do not have... I think they have profit-making free schools, | :40:38. | :40:40. | |
something that some Tories aspire to, and their standards are falling. | :40:41. | :40:45. | |
What is clear from these OECD results is that you need autonomy | :40:46. | :40:49. | |
and accountability. Where you have got one and not the other, it does | :40:50. | :40:53. | |
not work. In Wales, you have taken away accountability through league | :40:54. | :40:58. | |
tables... So what is the excuse for you? In England we have both | :40:59. | :41:03. | |
autonomy and accountability, exactly what Germany has achieved. It is too | :41:04. | :41:07. | |
early, can I just finished? It is too early to see the effect of our | :41:08. | :41:12. | |
reforms, and the OECD has been very clear that it is too early to see | :41:13. | :41:16. | |
the effects. We are learning from the far east, we have got a lot of | :41:17. | :41:21. | |
schools using the Singapore methods, teachers going over to | :41:22. | :41:24. | |
Shanghai to look at their teaching methods, and we do want to see those | :41:25. | :41:31. | |
in our schools. Kevin Brennan. The point I was making is that within | :41:32. | :41:34. | |
the Government's reforms, I cannot see how this is the way forward, | :41:35. | :41:41. | |
last week a school in Leeds advertised for maths teachers with a | :41:42. | :41:45. | |
minimum qualification of four GCSEs. How will that leads to improvement? | :41:46. | :41:48. | |
All the jurisdictions that she says she admires required teachers to be | :41:49. | :41:52. | |
properly qualified, to have the right pedagogical teaching methods | :41:53. | :41:57. | |
to be able to teach their subjects, and also do give autonomy to | :41:58. | :42:01. | |
schools, and I agree on that point, but within a proper framework of | :42:02. | :42:05. | |
accountability. I accept that she is right, accountability in the Welsh | :42:06. | :42:09. | |
context, which we talked about earlier, was let slip in early | :42:10. | :42:13. | |
years. Reforms have been put in place now, they should have been put | :42:14. | :42:17. | |
in place earlier, and I agree on that point. But these reforms are | :42:18. | :42:21. | |
going in the wrong direction in relating to allowing us to have | :42:22. | :42:25. | |
unqualified teachers. All the evidence from PISA... All the | :42:26. | :42:30. | |
evidence from PISA says unqualified teachers... There are no more | :42:31. | :42:33. | |
unqualified teachers now than under Labour. And what we are seeing... | :42:34. | :42:39. | |
That is in the private school system. Keven has just said... The | :42:40. | :42:44. | |
other point is we have a record number of teachers with goods | :42:45. | :42:52. | |
degrees thanks to... And actually Labour's Shadow Education Secretary | :42:53. | :42:54. | |
did say it is the quality of the teaching that counts. Let's look at | :42:55. | :43:00. | |
where we are as the United Kingdom and England, Scotland and Wales in | :43:01. | :43:06. | |
the tables. The UK is around 20 and 25, but below as many eurozone | :43:07. | :43:11. | |
countries. It is not as if we are at the bottom of European countries. | :43:12. | :43:15. | |
You are right the Far East are at the top, but yesterday a report | :43:16. | :43:20. | |
showed they are working 13 hours a day. Obviously, they are going to do | :43:21. | :43:29. | |
much better. Is that what we want? This first, then Kevan. There are | :43:30. | :43:34. | |
countries in Europe that are succeeding... Italy, generally, | :43:35. | :43:39. | |
Spain are below us. Poland have looked at the Far East, they have | :43:40. | :43:44. | |
done things like make core academics a focus of their curriculum for all | :43:45. | :43:47. | |
students. They have done things like spend more time teaching those | :43:48. | :43:50. | |
subjects, focused on teacher quality, and they have improved | :43:51. | :43:55. | |
their results over ten years. Poland has improved its results by one | :43:56. | :44:02. | |
whole year. What is not to like? Poland is not following the policies | :44:03. | :44:07. | |
that this government is in relation to free schools, profit-making free | :44:08. | :44:11. | |
schools, and unqualified teachers. You told me off for interrupting you | :44:12. | :44:15. | |
and you have not let me have a say. They have not been following the | :44:16. | :44:19. | |
policy of free schools. Where they have copied that from, profit-making | :44:20. | :44:23. | |
free schools, unqualified teachers in Sweden, they have plummeted down | :44:24. | :44:27. | |
the league tables, and the same is true in America, because it is a | :44:28. | :44:30. | |
race to the bottom, that is what they found in those countries. I do | :44:31. | :44:34. | |
not think any party can make partisan points out of this... They | :44:35. | :44:40. | |
try quite hard! All parties of government have failed to grapple | :44:41. | :44:43. | |
with the enormity, the huge problem that everybody in Britain with half | :44:44. | :44:47. | |
a brain knows, that the shortcomings of the educational system have a lot | :44:48. | :44:52. | |
to answer for. We have not mentioned the educational establishment. I | :44:53. | :44:55. | |
greatly admire Michael Gove, whatever one's quibbles some of | :44:56. | :45:00. | |
these reforms and their small print, but he is willing to take on the | :45:01. | :45:03. | |
educational establishment, the people who have been running schools | :45:04. | :45:07. | |
for 50 years who have abysmally failed. No government until Michael | :45:08. | :45:10. | |
Gove had the nerve to take on these people. You say abysmally failed, | :45:11. | :45:21. | |
isn't that just a blanket representation? We have children not | :45:22. | :45:25. | |
only unemployed but unemployable after leaving school. We need to do | :45:26. | :45:32. | |
better, no doubt. Over many decades... I remember when I was in | :45:33. | :45:38. | |
school, Jim Callaghan called for a rate education debate, and I was a | :45:39. | :45:42. | |
teacher myself in leaky Portakabin classrooms. It has been a long-term | :45:43. | :45:49. | |
solution, let -- it has been a long-term problem, let's look for | :45:50. | :45:54. | |
solutions which do not downgrade the teaching profession so much that it | :45:55. | :45:57. | |
does not even require a qualification. We now have a very | :45:58. | :46:04. | |
good cohort of teachers, it is under threat from Government policy. Under | :46:05. | :46:09. | |
Labour, fewer students studied subjects like science and languages | :46:10. | :46:13. | |
and we diverted into other subjects, students were lied to about the | :46:14. | :46:17. | |
importance of those subjects. Germany and Poland have a core of | :46:18. | :46:24. | |
academics subjects, like the English baccalaureate. We have moored | :46:25. | :46:28. | |
students following those subjects and we have better qualified | :46:29. | :46:31. | |
teachers. I accept that we are learning from Germany and Poland, | :46:32. | :46:35. | |
they have given schools greater autonomy. Allah if you are learning | :46:36. | :46:42. | |
from Germany and Poland, why have you copied Sweden? Thank you both. | :46:43. | :46:45. | |
With most of the big energy companies announcing | :46:46. | :46:47. | |
inflation-busting increases to bills this autumn, Ed Miliband has made | :46:48. | :46:50. | |
much of the political running with his promise of a price freeze. | :46:51. | :46:53. | |
Yesterday, the Government responded. The Energy Secretary, Ed Davey, went | :46:54. | :46:56. | |
to the Commons to set out proposals which would lower the impact of | :46:57. | :46:57. | |
price rises on consumers. We must ensure that the changes we | :46:58. | :47:10. | |
make maintain the support provided to the most vulnerable, then came | :47:11. | :47:15. | |
the investment in clean energy and do not have a negative thing capped | :47:16. | :47:20. | |
and our carbon reduction ambitions -- maintain the investment in clean | :47:21. | :47:27. | |
energy. We have looked at the cost profile, I can announce proposals | :47:28. | :47:31. | |
that would reduce the average household bill next year by ?50 on | :47:32. | :47:37. | |
average. The sum total of everything he has said today, including | :47:38. | :47:42. | |
spending ?600 million of taxpayers' money and weakening the obligation | :47:43. | :47:46. | |
on energy companies to deliver energy efficiency is that the energy | :47:47. | :47:50. | |
companies will still be allowed to put up bills this winter. Does he | :47:51. | :47:56. | |
really think that is a good deal for consumers? I noticed that she did | :47:57. | :48:04. | |
not welcome this cut in energy bills for her constituents. Her | :48:05. | :48:07. | |
constituents will want to know why she was not prepared to welcome it. | :48:08. | :48:11. | |
For every Labour member who stands up today, we want to know if they | :48:12. | :48:16. | |
will welcome it for their constituents? We looked at the | :48:17. | :48:20. | |
energy freeze proposal from the opposition and were very clear that | :48:21. | :48:25. | |
it would not work. We've only got to ask the Secretary of State what he | :48:26. | :48:29. | |
has been doing for the last three and a half years. He told people to | :48:30. | :48:38. | |
wear pullovers. If you work out what people are being offered, it is less | :48:39. | :48:43. | |
than 90p a week from their energy bills. How does this square up with | :48:44. | :48:47. | |
the bedroom tax, which will affect a lot of poor people in this country? | :48:48. | :48:51. | |
This must be one of the most cruel governments we have ever had. He | :48:52. | :48:59. | |
hiked up energy prices when he was Secretary of State for energy and he | :49:00. | :49:02. | |
is now trying to keep them at that level. We have heard the same type | :49:03. | :49:08. | |
of claptrap we heard from the leader of the opposition. Can I tell the | :49:09. | :49:12. | |
Secretary of State for energy that my constituents want the government | :49:13. | :49:15. | |
to source the cheapest rather than the greenest energy. Max Hastings, | :49:16. | :49:22. | |
it has dominated the political debate, the argument over energy and | :49:23. | :49:27. | |
prices. Has the government neutralise the issue? Not for a | :49:28. | :49:32. | |
minute, they have no energy policy. In 2010I wrote a newspaper column | :49:33. | :49:38. | |
saying I thought that David Cameron would bitterly regret turning over | :49:39. | :49:42. | |
energy policy to the Lib Dems, who see like milk and have no credible | :49:43. | :49:48. | |
idea at all, including Ed Davey, who is quite unfit to be Energy | :49:49. | :49:53. | |
Secretary... Except the Conservatives said they were going | :49:54. | :49:56. | |
to be the most green government in history. I have read in the paper a | :49:57. | :50:04. | |
couple of days ago that we will be very lucky to get through more than | :50:05. | :50:06. | |
a couple of winters without interruption to supply. This is | :50:07. | :50:11. | |
almost criminal negligence on the part of the Government. We are | :50:12. | :50:15. | |
talking about keeping prices down, in the real world, energy prices | :50:16. | :50:20. | |
have nowhere to go but up. I am sure it is a huge political problem. Read | :50:21. | :50:26. | |
milk -- Ed Miliband is responsible... But how would you | :50:27. | :50:32. | |
persuade the energy companies to invest on the scale desperately | :50:33. | :50:36. | |
needed as the coal-fired power stations are shutdown unless you | :50:37. | :50:40. | |
allow them to make profits? Neither party is doing very well, neither | :50:41. | :50:46. | |
has a credible energy policy. Is it right for David Cameron to say he is | :50:47. | :50:50. | |
trying to do something to roll back the green levies, even though in | :50:51. | :50:55. | |
practice it is social progress he is rolling back? Is he right to tackle | :50:56. | :51:02. | |
it? He had to face the fact that it would cost consumers as well as | :51:03. | :51:05. | |
Government an enormous amount of money to be, as green as Europe and | :51:06. | :51:09. | |
successive governments promised. It will make it fantastically difficult | :51:10. | :51:13. | |
for British industry to compete with the United States. We will have huge | :51:14. | :51:21. | |
problems. There is a dilemma, but the Lib Dems have never really been | :51:22. | :51:26. | |
serious. Neither of the two main parties are being serious about | :51:27. | :51:30. | |
saying to the public, we will have to face difficult dilemmas to keep | :51:31. | :51:35. | |
the lights on and our laptops going. That is the argument they put | :51:36. | :51:39. | |
forward having a renewables policy, if you invest properly and pay for | :51:40. | :51:43. | |
insulation programmes, bills will come down as a result? We will never | :51:44. | :51:48. | |
produce anything like enough energy to keep the lights on. The Royal | :51:49. | :51:53. | |
Academy Of Mechanical Engineering produced a fantastic report which I | :51:54. | :52:00. | |
recommend to everybody coming in to Government. This report was | :52:01. | :52:04. | |
devastating, about the negligence of politicians about future supply. But | :52:05. | :52:09. | |
isn't Ed Miliband right to say that whether you like the energy freeze | :52:10. | :52:14. | |
idea or not, that breaking up the market in that period of time... | :52:15. | :52:20. | |
That is a different kettle of fish. It is the idea of just a blanket | :52:21. | :52:25. | |
freeze on prizes... So you agree with the policy... You only get | :52:26. | :52:31. | |
proper competition with a real range of choice. Thank you. | :52:32. | :52:37. | |
He is the Conservative MEP who spent nearly half a decade as the deputy | :52:38. | :52:42. | |
leader of the UK Independence Party, and even stood for the UKIP | :52:43. | :52:47. | |
leadership twice. Then in 2011, seven years after walking away, he | :52:48. | :52:52. | |
rejoined the Conservative Party. Happy to be a Tory again? Yes. Happy | :52:53. | :52:57. | |
for Britain to be a member of the European Union? You must be joking. | :52:58. | :53:03. | |
He remains a deeply outspoken critic of the EU, and this week the | :53:04. | :53:08. | |
Conservative MEP has a new book out. It is called Time To Jump and argues | :53:09. | :53:15. | |
wide the EU should consider -- why the UK should consider quitting the | :53:16. | :53:20. | |
EU. The cover has the UK depicted as a lobster in a pot of water, why are | :53:21. | :53:25. | |
you so convinced that boiling point is approaching? We are getting these | :53:26. | :53:31. | |
major problems like immigration, it is clear to everyone that we are | :53:32. | :53:39. | |
lacking control of our own borders. Immigration has been a big thing for | :53:40. | :53:43. | |
many years, why at this particular point? Romanians and Bulgarians | :53:44. | :53:50. | |
coming in is a big issue. What I argue in my book is for Swiss style | :53:51. | :53:59. | |
controls. They are able to differentiate between old EU nations | :54:00. | :54:02. | |
where there is not much of a problem and a new and developing nations | :54:03. | :54:06. | |
where you will get larger numbers coming through. I would probably | :54:07. | :54:12. | |
share many of his concerns. I call myself a lifelong European but of | :54:13. | :54:17. | |
late, I have come to believe that we cannot stay in Europe on any terms. | :54:18. | :54:21. | |
I don't know what she would say to this, but I was at an Anglo-German | :54:22. | :54:28. | |
conference where one the of biggest German industrialists spoke very | :54:29. | :54:31. | |
rationally and said, we all hope Britain will remain within the EU, | :54:32. | :54:36. | |
but we recognise that it is quite possible that they will go out. You | :54:37. | :54:40. | |
said, I would like to say to my British friends with the latest | :54:41. | :54:44. | |
politeness, if you leave, you will find it very cold out there. And | :54:45. | :54:49. | |
where I find myself in a less comfortable position than you is | :54:50. | :54:52. | |
that on the one hand I totally agree that the European project has gone | :54:53. | :54:57. | |
horribly wrong, but I also believe that German industrialist when he | :54:58. | :55:03. | |
said that when we leave we will have a very tough time. I have been to | :55:04. | :55:11. | |
Norway, they have the largest sovereign wealth funds in the world. | :55:12. | :55:19. | |
It is a very small population. It is a different country, you can compare | :55:20. | :55:25. | |
the EU to Norway? We have the largest financial centre in the | :55:26. | :55:29. | |
world, we are big globalists. Nine tenths of the growth in the world | :55:30. | :55:33. | |
will come from outside the EU. White tie ourselves to the EU with red | :55:34. | :55:39. | |
tape? We employ 1 million Germans, hundreds of thousands of French, I | :55:40. | :55:47. | |
believe we will negotiate. I don't know anybody that I would call | :55:48. | :55:50. | |
numerous and sophisticated in the City of London who would... One of | :55:51. | :55:57. | |
the top asset managers said this. I think the tide is turning. We have | :55:58. | :56:03. | |
to look at the facts, it is a plus and minus relationship. You can get | :56:04. | :56:08. | |
a fantastic trade deal, I am on the trade committee of the European | :56:09. | :56:12. | |
Parliament... You can't guarantee it. We are the largest single | :56:13. | :56:18. | |
customer, they would be crazy... What is least credible about | :56:19. | :56:21. | |
everything that UKIP and the Tory right say about Europe is to suggest | :56:22. | :56:25. | |
that the sun will shine, the weather will get better, the England cricket | :56:26. | :56:30. | |
team will do brilliantly. In the real, modern world, do you believe | :56:31. | :56:38. | |
life is that easy? I do. I work with these EA countries like Switzerland | :56:39. | :56:42. | |
all the time in my work as an MEP. Switzerland is the third-largest | :56:43. | :56:46. | |
trading partner with the EU, we can get a British option, which I am | :56:47. | :56:54. | |
calling EA Light, between Norway and Switzerland. What about the | :56:55. | :57:00. | |
negotiations, they are doomed? There is no way that David Cameron could | :57:01. | :57:06. | |
ever negotiate a settlement? I supported referendum policy, and | :57:07. | :57:11. | |
there will be a clear choice between renegotiated in, or negotiated out. | :57:12. | :57:18. | |
Leave it to the people. Thank you for coming in. | :57:19. | :57:22. | |
Now to return to the story about the Guardian editor Alan Rusbridger | :57:23. | :57:25. | |
appearing before a parliamentary committee to answer questions about | :57:26. | :57:28. | |
whether the newspaper compromise national security. The Guardian has | :57:29. | :57:32. | |
sent a statement to respond to some of the things that Mack said. They | :57:33. | :57:37. | |
have said that the Guardian has not published any names and has redacted | :57:38. | :57:39. | |
and deleted information as appropriate. | :57:40. | :58:03. | |
I prefer to listen to the heads of the intelligence services and the | :58:04. | :58:10. | |
Commons select committee. But that is a pretty strong a bottle. They | :58:11. | :58:15. | |
would say that, wouldn't they? I stick with what I said. Although | :58:16. | :58:19. | |
there is a real dilemma, and I do not believe that scrutineers | :58:20. | :58:25. | |
adequate, I believe that there will be more appropriate arbiters of | :58:26. | :58:27. | |
national security than Alan Rusbridger. Very briefly, the quiz. | :58:28. | :58:33. | |
And we asked you to pick the odd one out - London cabs, High Speed Two, | :58:34. | :58:37. | |
Heathrow airport, Weetabix? I presume HS2 is there because they | :58:38. | :58:43. | |
have been talking about the Chinese building it for us. I think they are | :58:44. | :58:46. | |
involved in all the other things we mentioned. Thank you for being our | :58:47. | :58:51. | |
guest of the day. Andrew and I will be back at 11:30am tomorrow with | :58:52. | :58:54. | |
Prime Minister's Questions. Goodbye. | :58:55. | :58:57. |